Armor Mobility - Elbow Flexion in Different Armor Configurations

How does armor affect the range of motion of individual joints? Let's find out!
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[@Mtonazzi]

The kind of video I show to a lot of people to destroy myths. Thanks.

[@KnyghtErrant]

My pleasure!

[@gabrielrivard3332]

(Physical therapy student here) The functional ROM of the elbow is from 30 to 130 degrees of flexion, so a 10° decrease in ROM shouldn't pose much of a problem (bonus fact: the average error of mesurement of a goniometer is usually about 5°, if it helps you compare)

[@BekoPharm]

Some thumbs-up on this, please :)

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Gabriel Rivard thanks for the insight! I'm not sweating a 10 degree loss of ROM. I think that's pretty good. If anything, it's the change in comfort that's more perceived than the slight loss of ROM.

[@gabrielrivard3332]

Knyght Errant This would indeed be a bigger limiting factor and could get quite irritating after a day of fighting, I believe. It is always a pleasure to watch your videos, I'm glad my comment was useful. Thank you for your work!

[@hawkeyepierce9794]

I personally love hearing about all the little details. It helps with immersion when I play video games, watch movies, or read. I feel closer to the man in the armor because of it.

[@garymaple3387]

As a person who works in scientific research I'm satisfied with how this experiment was conducted and and the information presented. Granted its not exactly a topic that could be published, still valuable and insightful. Can't wait to see your next video.

[@hanssmirnov9946]

I'd say it'd make an excellent paper, if combined with experiments on other joints with more examples of armour. I don't think Ian has enough suits of armour, or the time to formalize it into a paper, however.

[@LordVltor]

With the elbow not tailored (gambeson speaking), not only you'd likely loose more freedom of movement, but the sleeve would be pulled backward, uncovering your wrist (I have the same issues even just with my silk clothes, since silk is not elastic). Wonderful video, though: is really amazing to see how armours influence the freedom of movement of a person with data at hand.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Thanks, and thank you for the insight into an non-tailored doublet sleeve.

[@Ralchire]

Demi-riveted... that's a really good term for half solid, half riveted mail. Never heard it before but I'll start using it. Regarding mobility in armor. I know you've done a *mobility* video with Metatron, but could you measure things like *speed*? For instance, how long would it take you to run 50 yards (or so) without armor versus armor in different configurations? Is there a noticeable drop in speed or just in stamina? That could be rather eye-opening for us and a valuable reference. Thanks for the video, man!

[@stevengood1812]

Ralchire sounds like a great idea. Also like with full kit and weapons (pollaxe, dagger and long sword) or with partial armor. Because at different timers knights wouldn't where full harness

[@KnyghtErrant]

Good idea, and something I've had in mind. I need to figure out the logistics as I'm usually a one man show, but sometimes I can convince my wife to help out :)

[@bozo5632]

+Knyght Errant - video might be entertaining, but I'm just as interested in the numerical results.

[@AggroPhene]

He is speaking of it being in Demi like a herald referencing a field of stripes, that's medieval science verbatim!

[@Ygdrasil18]

Would be nice to see different armour joints. I don't mean knees or shoulders. I mean eg. ellbow joints from different armour types. Italian, german, different periods. How they changed (protection on the inner ellbow joint) and how it affected movement.

[@deathdeathington]

I'm particularly interested in the mobility ranges of spaulders versus pauldrons.

[@simonburling3762]

Please continue with this series, I found this video very informative.

[@Calemad]

First of all, I know you hear this a lot, but your beard looks amazing. Second, thank you so much for this video, as an artist that constantly draws armor has no means of access to real armor this is absurdly useful on a level that no still pictures can compete.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Awesome, I'm glad that it's proving to be useful for you in that respect. I'll try to do more in this style for other parts of the body as well.

[@matthewmillar3804]

It's been a while. Good to see you again. This is the exact type of video I would expect you to make and the exact type I love watching on your channel. Keep it up sir! Once I get a real job, I'll support you more tangibly.

[@yaminowa]

This is fantastic content. It really highlights something I never really think of when I look at armor. I always considered that there would be weight added to the body that would restrict mobility, but to see the extent that it affects flexibility also taught me something new.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Here's something to think about as well. Sometimes restricting a joints mechanical range of movement can actually be a safety feature as well. Yes, it restricts your mobility, but it also keeps the joint safer by preventing someone from forcing it into hyper-extension and destroying it :)

[@yaminowa]

That makes a lot of sense.. The thought is not too dissimilar to how some boots have really rigid ankles to prevent injuries around that region.

[@pawenowicki5898]

More videos like this would be appreciated. Especially if you could compare different armour sets to show for example the difference in motion between armour dedicated for foot combat compared with one meant to be use on horseback.

[@tasatort9778]

Video is well thought out, informative, very well presented, logical progression, and is easily understandable, which makes it just average for a Knyght Errant presentation; yet when compared to a lot of content that is out there it goes from average to astounding. A series of related videos would be awesome.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Thank you!

[@doggyppants9846]

This is the best video ever! I'm looking forward to one for every joint!

[@kittyman187]

Interesting stuff, I've learned quite from your channel and am looking forward to more. Keep up the good work!

[@breaden4381]

A video about Ian flexing. I mean Ian's flexion.

[@NoBSSurvival]

more please. this could be useful for making armour.

[@brotherandythesage]

Very helpful to give some numbers to your comparisons. Thanks so much for all your insightful info!

[@Stalfos85]

Great vid! Measurable data is always helpful! I would like to know; to what extent do various plate-armor builds protect against joint manipulation or breaks, such as the classic arm-bar elbow breaks. It seems like the ways armors are intended NOT to flex could be equally important.

[@johndumbeltion1693]

Very interesting ! Terrific work as always !

[@M6nst6r6]

Big thank you for such detail information!!! I think a lot of work of art either historical or fantasy can benefit from such useful info. Your channel is gold mine for references!!!

[@AngelsArmour]

Documented very well, excellent job!

[@lolply54]

Hope this kind of video is going to continue, they are great! Also repeating a suggestion already made, maybe something regaridng speed, jump height, with/without armor would also be very nice to see! Keep it up man!

[@MaciejNaumienko]

Do we want to see more? hell yeah! Great content as ever

[@daisyruin]

Thank you, wearing and designing armors for me has been a qualitative exercise, it is good to take it to numbers like this.

[@giuarmours]

As always, a very helpful and well made video. Thanks, Ian!

[@ShagShaggio]

This is really awesome! Thank you so much for doing these videos. Also, your beard just keeps getting more and more majestic with every video!

[@KnyghtErrant]

Haha, thanks. I think it's starting to get a little _too_ majestic for some aspects of wearing armor :)

[@ShagShaggio]

Does it catch on the mail around the throat under the aventail?

[@KnyghtErrant]

No, my aventail is lined so it's fine once my helmet is on. When my helmet is off though, it sometimes catches on the mail collar or on the mail at the shoulders.

[@ShagShaggio]

That's what I meant the collar underneath. I just figured the weight of the aventail would push the beard onto it more so its surprising that its worse without the helmet. Anyway thanks for the replies and sorry for the odd curiosity. I often like to write weird but realistic quirks into fantasy characters and that reply sparked that in my head.

[@KnyghtErrant]

For some reason I don't notice it catching once the helmet is on. Maybe the compression on the beard is keeping it clear of my pisan? It's mostly the shoulders though that catch an errant hair here and there when I turn my head from side to side with the helmet off :)

[@meanmanturbo]

I really like you stuff, best information on armors I have found. This question is not really about this video, I just post it here because it is the newest. Through your videos you have made it very clear that good armor would need to be tailored to work properly. What I'm wondering about is how the (semi) mass produced munitions armors from say the 16th to early 17th century worked. Maybe that is outside of your area of interest, I don't know. What would be really interesting is if, with your knowledge of armors, you could analyse what sort of compromises and workarounds they used with munitions armors to get around the need for tailoring. One thing clearly was that, at least I think, there were no full plate armor suits. No greaves at least. Now I don't want to come of like I am making any demands, it is just something I would find very interesting. Thanks for the great information.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Thanks for the comment, and I think that's a good topic for a video. As you've probably discovered, I'm super slow at making these things, but it is something I definitely want to address in the future.

[@meanmanturbo]

Looking forwards to it. Your videos on greaves makes it, in my mind at least, pretty clear as to why 3/4 armors where so prevalent. I hadn't really thought about that before making these comments. So your videos are also making me do some thinking on my own, an extra bonus.

[@humungus3]

Good stuff as always Ian thanks!

[@fornile]

Thanks for making this video. High quality content, as always from you.

[@jmclean7006]

This is fantastic, more please!

[@manyrandomnumbers]

Great video, interesting and practical.

[@shun2240]

but in real combat one does not flex his or her arm that much so a little compromise in range of motion for a large amount of arm protection is a worthy exchange

[@carlpolen7437]

Hmm. No. Same protection. Please watch Ian's other videos on mail shirt/discrete mail sleeves. Also, real combat? I'm a veteran with multiple deployments under my belt, and to be frank, even I can't say I've ever come close to 'real' combat wearing armor like that shown above. But, and I can say this with absolute certainty, well-fitted/comfortable gear makes all the difference while on campaign.

[@jonmakar5646]

Carl Polen Yes, and this is one reason why many men at arms preferred more comfortable styles of armour/weapons as opposed to those that were more protective/damaging! i.e. the grand bascinet (increased protection in exchange for decreased range of motion, visibilty, and convenience) vs. the sallet helm (increased visibility, mobility, and convenience in exchange for decreased protection), or the longsword vs. the greatsword or pollaxe in a civilian/everyday wear context. Obviously grand bascinets and greatswords were still used, but they were relatively more situational. Grand bascinets quickly became relegated as more of a tournament style of helm, where safety was more of a concern than practicality, visibilty, and long term wear-ability, and greatswords were mostly used in battles to break pike formations, and were usually not carried everyday).

[@shun2240]

Carl Polen when i mean protection i am comparing an arm with armor or not at all.

[@jonmakar5646]

Zlasher Semi Pro I agree actually. I think I got a little over zealous when replying to the above post. I was agreeing with his point about the value of convenience and comfort without really checking that it was in relation to what you were saying. In the case of a grand bascinet vs. a sallet, there is a relatively large juxtaposition between protection and visibility/convenience, whereas, with the types of arm protection using Ian's harness, there is a very small loss in range of motion (convenience/mobility) compared to the large amount of protection offered!

[@carlpolen7437]

Zlasher Semi Pro. The main point you tried to make that I disagreed with is your words - "in real combat one does not flex his or her arm that much." This is untrue to a very high degree. In combat, as Ian and others have shown again and again, armor was designed to allow the individual to 'fight' effectively. And this meant flexion, i.e mobility. In other words, you absolutely flex/move your arms in combat. This was true in the past and is still true today.

[@AmarothEng]

Definitely interresting video, I'd like to see more similiar ones.

Great work

[@breaden4381]

YES ANOTHER KNYGHT ERRANT VIDEO!!! :)

[@GallowglassAxe]

I really like this video and certainly would like to see more. I've been wondering about grappling in armor and wonder how certain armor or parts would effect submission holds. Since wrestling was a common thing in armored fighting would submission holds be useful in combat or would the armor help block that from happening?

[@calebcothron3556]

always great to see you pop up in my sub page.

[@Dominator046]

Quantitative studies are awesome!!

[@longsword1969]

Yes do more of these

[@macmurfy2jka]

This was great. More, more, more!

[@hanssmirnov9946]

This is fantastic, I love it! Makes me want to code tiny details like this into a game... but probably pointless. What I'd really like to see though, is a skill-based athletics/dexterity challenge. One you perform in and out of armour, to show how much it impaired your abilities. This could include something like DDR... but that may be dangerous to your DDR mat.

[@The1Helleri]

ooo! another one for muh playlist.

[@skriimlord9056]

That beard has progressed!

[@rDnhey]

Great video!

[@koticneutralftw7016]

Really cool video.

[@TheCompleteMental]

I could also see it being the shape and size of the rings causing trouble comfort-wise

[@Humster]

Thumbs up, always wanted to know.

[@CraigLYoung]

I found this very interesting, could you work with some of your friends with different styles and different time periods to show the improvements in technology.

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

Which level of arm protection would allow you to shoot a bow effectively? It seemed that mail hauberks were pretty common equipment for english longbowmen (as well as other bowmen such as turkish ghulams) and plate arm harness were not uncommon, so it certainly must be doable. It did seem from the medieval pictures that survived that longbowmen typically wore mail hauberks with short baggy sleeves, with any other plate arm defense (if any) being worn under that, which would not cause problem of mail bunching. Turkish ghulams and askaris armour typically also did not have any mail around the inside of the elbow, the mail sleeve terminating well above the joint, and instead the vambrace was extended to protect the elbow from the outside angle.

[@Sadeyr]

It's really nice seeing this, I don't think I've ever found a video that went into this kind of detail and exact movement for the armor for the joints. Seeing this though, it makes me wonder- how far behind you can you reach with the armor on? Like can you touch behind your head, your neck, your shoulderblades at all, or is it too restricting with the mail/plate and the movement of the shoulder as well?

[@KnyghtErrant]

This particular style of arm harness isn't the most _shoulder mobility friendly_. I can touch my face to drink or eat and raise my visor etc... but reaching behind yourself is difficult if not impossible. You don't really need to though.

[@Sadeyr]

Alright, thanks. ^^ I was wondering this because I enjoy being practical/realistic with my combat even in RPG stuff, and during an event with a group I was in, my character was tackled from behind and didn't have a way to just pull them off. I considered having him reach behind his head to do it, but I decided against it giving his plating, and hand him reach for their legs and drag them off from below, more difficult, but it seemed to be the more realistic option compared to grabbing over his shoulders!

[@ZaWyvern]

Yeah, bunching maille is why I only weat a short sleeve hauberk. I have a request though, would you be able to do a comparison video doing technique in armor vs unarmored? Specifically for arm movement, but also in general. I found switching from unarmored to armored I had to have clean technique and engage the core more.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Technique in armor definitely requires more consciousness of good upright posture and solid core control or you will find yourself quickly off-balance. You can get away with a lot more when you're unarmored. Maybe I'll try to wrangle some friends into doing some combat-related videos in harness one day :)

[@ZaWyvern]

That'd be awesome. Sorry about the double post... google...

[@beachmaster3486]

Could you make a video where you talk about the different types of elbow joint articulations?

[@cwastoinand]

Really interesting

[@longsword1969]

Good video

[@michaelcurl9200]

Yes, please do.

[@bozo5632]

Great video, as usual. Maybe trim your vambraces a bit to improve flexion?

[@Perforator2000]

Looks like Ian is wearing a Hamilton Khaki field watch in this video. Nice.

[@markofthej4476]

one of the best beards I've ever seen

[@briankirk4097]

cool vid

[@ericwalter651]

My personal harness has rearbraces which are not fully enclosing in a similar test I decided to do with this configuration you gain a bit more range of motion though not a whole lot

[@markbreidenbaugh6033]

More please.

[@markuskratochwil3570]

Hi Ian, do you have some tailoring recipe for the elbow section of the mail sleeves? I tried to watch it out, but I cannot really see, where it's opened, bend and tailored again. If you do not have any tailoring plan, can you please make a detailed picture of the elbow section of your sleeve? I'll try to upgrade my shirt by myself.

[@mer_meh]

Why do wizards have pointy hats?

[@faolan9472]

Please more

[@daklr2501]

Can you do a video like this but with helmets and neck mobility? I've always had trouble visualizing how much free space one has to turn their head up, down and side to side in plate armor, since for the most part I only get pictures with seemingly stiff riveted metal plates are wrapped around the neck and shoulder it's incredibly hard to visualize or tell how far one can actually move while wearing one.

[@Jim58223]

What watch are you wearing in this video Ian? A Hamilton khaki field?

[@maciejbujakowski2353]

Hi there, really interesting video, thanks for it. I'd really would like to see how flexion works for a seperated armor, think gonna try it myself with my suit ;)

[@ManinaCanArmoury]

I was concerned with the fact that the new arm harness I'm working on is too closely fitted, with the mail shirt bunching up in the inside of my elbow, guess the problem is with my mail which is a huge relief and easy to fix.

[@wojtekimbier]

Just like today, cheap things work but the expensive ones feel so much nicer when you use them

[@Bookrider951]

Great video! I'm trying to put together my late 14th century kit together, and I was going to get a padded purpoint like yours, but I'm having trouble finding out how many layers or thickness is a good amount to have for wearing with armor. Any advice?

[@KnyghtErrant]

If you're wearing a relatively complete and properly fitted plate harness, very little padding is necessary at all. I only have one or two layers of cotton batting in mine (one or two layers depending on the specific placement).

[@Bookrider951]

Knyght Errant Awesome, thanks! It didn't look like much padding from the video

[@dinosnider6809]

Curious if you think there are decent gains to be had to make an increased range suit, with protection tradeoffs.

[@Vladokaza]

Could you talk about the shoulders next?

[@Ruarscampbell]

Vladokaz Stříbro measuring range of motion at the shoulders is a little more difficult, as shoulder movement that we think of is actually three/four joints: the glenohumeral joint, the acromioclavicular joint, the sternoclavicular joint and the sliding of the shoulder blade over the back. I'll get a video where it's all explained better if you like, but not if you don't think it's relevant.

[@Vladokaza]

Thank you. sir.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

Would smaller rings on the inside of the joint help with the RoM?

[@magnajota4341]

I would love to see a video about armor in video games, especially in Total War Attila: 1212 AD Mod and the upcoming Kingdom come Deliverance.

[@tserra6270]

I feel like the disclaimer isn't necessary in its entirety, I understand the need to cover your bases but even with an actual contemporary harness it would still be an approximation because the exact measurements would likely vary even between pieces from the same workshop.

[@lordspamify]

hi Ian, quick question about helmets: which one of the many you reviewed (or didn't!) offers the best visibility. I would assume it's the Armet or a Close helmet with a bascinet being the worst? isn't visibility vital so why have a 1cm slit so far from the face? I can't afford to buy one to test myself haha :)

[@KnyghtErrant]

Of the helmets I've used that have visors, the armet was the best, but that of course doesn't speak for all of their historical counterparts. Don't forget that you can also see through the 'breaths' of the visor as well. On Dr. Toby Capwell's famous black harness, he remarked about how the visibility in his Great Bascinet visor was so good that he had to overcome the feeling of being too exposed even though the visor was down. Being able to see so much psychologically made him feel like less protected even though he was almost completely protected, so some bascinet styles can be very good for vision. As far as visibility being vital, yes it can be, and that's likely why we see a lot of people in artwork choosing to fight in close with their visors up or removed. Keep the visor down for protection against projectiles and during cavalry charges, but in a melee it may be better to keep it up or off.

[@lordspamify]

thanks ian, ill have a look into Dr Capwells visor (pardon the pun)

[@KnyghtErrant]

The whole lecture is worth listening to if you've got the time, but here's the appropriate section where he talks about the visor: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYCkeoSGqMyNjbsh26m43s

[@MegaRaven100]

I have a dare for you, Get Metatron to shave off his hair in exchange for a promise you will grow yours out to shoulder length before cutting it off again (assuming you want to). Why do I ask this. Because I used to be a skinhead for a decade or so and then grew my hair out and then beard. 'Ch-ch-changes' As David Bowie once sang. It would be fun. A visual clock. You could cut his hair off and then you don't touch your hair for 2 years. Fun fun fun. You both get to keep the beard (of course; I am not THAT cruel!!)! Anyway good stuff!

[@kaaajeee]

the flat arm of that angle measure seems inconsistent. sometimes its parallel with the axis or upper arm, other times with upper surface of it. just a few degrees i know.

[@Riceball01]

I wonder how much difference mail voiders would make and if you run into the same issues with them as you do with the mail shirt and sleeves.

[@KnyghtErrant]

You'd still get bunching on the inside of the joint. How much bunching would be dependent on the ring size in that case, but I think you'd get another step up in comfort compared to the tailored sleeves. My guess would be straight sleeve - tailored sleeve - voider in order of increasing comfort, and I don't see the voider being any less protective than the other options.

[@Lokarsh21]

Seems to me that the size of the rings might be considerably more crucial than the sleeve's tailoring... 3 millimetres per ring adds up to a huge amount of iron. Sure, if it was less rows of ring it'd help, but the simple truth of the matter is that the modern 9 millimetre reproductions are too big for joints. I'm guessing they'd be used only for the chest and groin, where there's less bending in the anatomy of the wearer, while limbs, neck and face would be protected by much finer mail.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Historical mail shows quite a range in ring size, up to and exceeding the modern 9mm ID rings and going much smaller than my 6mm ID rings on the other side ( I agree that larger rings are modernly _over-represented_ but they did appear in joints on historical mail garments too), but what I found to have just as much of an effect on movement as the inside of the elbow was the outside of the elbow (I wish I could test the effect of both in isolation). The tailored sleeve offered considerably less resistance on the outside of the elbow in flexion than the straight sleeve, and the problem would be even further compounded if my straight sleeve was a little bit longer (since you can see it almost rides up past my elbow joint, but not quite, and it can't when strapped into the plate arms). In a perfect world though I'd love to be able to test a 9mm straight sleeve against a 6mm straight sleeve, and then a 9mm tailored sleeve against a 6mm tailored sleeve to figure out the most significant impacts on mobility.

[@kamhyde40]

This isn't a ? about flexion but more about longevity. Is there any information about how many years a medieval knight might have been viable to fight? I couldn't imagine it would have been an indefinite time period with all the risks and rigor of battle back then.

[@KnyghtErrant]

From studies of the muster rolls in England throughout the 14th and 15th centuries, there are a lot of well known men-at-arms who provided military service for many decades. One of the Black Prince's most trusted military leaders, Sir John Chandos, was killed in a small encounter at the age of 55, and there are records showing people providing service for even longer.

[@kamhyde40]

That's cool. I guess all that plate and mail really did work to keep many of them safe.

[@longsword1969]

Walking in sabatons

[@xinfinity8532]

Is the articulation the only reason why is it noisy, but good video as always

[@KnyghtErrant]

Do you mean why armor is noisy in general? The noise comes from the articulation, the mail getting scrunched up also adds noise, but the loudest noise comes from the plates hitting other plates while you move or mail bouncing off plate. So things like plate tassets or the mail skirt bouncing off of cuisses or just your arms bumping into the breastplate etc makes a lot of noise. It's pretty hard to be quiet in a complete harness unless you started removing certain pieces.

[@xinfinity8532]

Thanks as always Ian you are the best

[@xinfinity8532]

+Knyght Errant make a video about jack chains, it played an important role to poor people who cant afford a full suit, but now its forgotten. I think you should bring back its popularity.

[@widowpeak6142]

I suppose you could extend you arm as much as usual, yes?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Widow Peak you can't hyper extend but you can get to roughly 0 degrees. In this case it's actually kind of nice because the armor is protecting your elbow from being broken in that direction and you really have no need to be able to hyper extend in armor anyway.

[@widowpeak6142]

Good point.

[@anthonyyates9003]

shoulders or need please

[@user-mb4ux7xv4j]

Has your wife ever worn your armour before? :)

[@jacobc874]

This man has not had fun for 500 years

[@grassyclimer6853]

is there a turd that just goes around and makes sure every video has a dislike?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+grassy climer yes :) several in fact

[@grassyclimer6853]

Knyght Errant dont listen to em video's are as awesome as that beard