Article: Men are giving up on college. Thoughts?

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[@Mr.Rogers91]

I am not a fan of college unless you're going into a field that requires it. Don't fall for it either because I never went to college and I'm 30 I make 6 figures and I genuinely enjoy my career.

[@Tential1]

My bro makes 25%+ more than me and never went. College isn't what it used to be. As long as you're frugal, invest your money wisely, and educate yourself/keep learning, you'll be good.

[@Tential1]

@@holyhandgrenades5529 a lot of plumbers make good money. In fact, I hear there are a shortage of plumbers. "trade" jobs are amazing right now.

[@FRAMEDSKATEKREW69]

how much exactly is your salary, because you can tell me you make $100,001 a year. That wouldnt be enough in some cities. I would rather go to college for programming for 2-4 years and make 200k+ with potential to grow quickly. On top of that I wouldnt have to be in a supervisor/lead position, I can remove a lot of stress from working in another warehouse job.

[@kellyrankin8844]

@@FRAMEDSKATEKREW69 I agree, but not everyone wants to be a programmer. (I am one)

[@Shiviandemon]

@@FRAMEDSKATEKREW69 I think you might be overestimating how much programmers actually make..... Lead developers and Full Stack programmers of exceptional caliber, sure, but not entry level. Not even close. Programming is a fantastic career (this, as a BA in CS with a concentration in software engineering) but its not the golden goose people think it is. The glory stories come from programmers of exceptional caliber (who are *not* the norm) and the unicorn startups that get lucky. Sure, most programmers can easily make 80k+ out of college, but its definitely not 200k....

[@KingStix]

"College is definitely worth it and not a scam" -Colleges

[@letsmakeit110]

It's more that colleges give women affirmative action, minorities affirmative action, LGBT affirmative action, right? So if you're giving every group special treatment except one, you're really just oppressing that one. Many such cases. Which is why you see straight white men dropping out of western society altogether.

[@GGWP-nx3kn]

@@letsmakeit110 Indeed. Womanism made it so that women compete with men at an unfair advantage. Since most men worked to support women, now they don’t have to because women want to get rid of the need to commit to one man as soon as they make money, and they marry the governmental institutions instead.

[@duckersduck3096]

You make KZbin videos

[@cheesypuffs1342]

vaccine makers: our vaccines are totally safe. btw, can we get legal immunity from the government?

[@edwardcuevas6974]

Depends on the major.

[@iplayguitar4u]

An old man once told me: "Tell me, I'll forget. Show me. I'll remember. Involve me, I'll understand.". This is the truth.

[@fjb4932]

The Marine Corp way of instruction ...

[@rickychen2966]

Amen

[@Koozomec]

I'm not surprised you're a musician. All important skills are learned that way.

[@SteveLinGuitar]

Beautiful.

[@dingfeldersmurfalot4560]

That is really well thought and said, and I don't compliment lightly.

[@ki11aqueen5]

I dont want to be "successful" I just want a stable job, that let's me live my life outside of work and be with my loved ones while not having to worry about if I'll be able to afford the next bill. I dont want to be rich, I just want stability.

[@sylent8428]

I understand you, man, Everyone's all hung up on being extremely wealthy and "making their mark". What if someone just wants to take it easy and enjoy a relatively stable life. Is that really too selfish to ask, does that really make you lazy.

[@OmegaF77]

"I no longer want to be horny anymore. I just want to be happy." :,C

[@randomdude2550]

same, the yoshikage kira lifestyle is my dream.

[@ki11aqueen5]

@@sylent8428 exactly man, I'm just tired of it all tbh.

[@Jonononon]

To be honest … same. There are more important things than wealth or status. Spending time with loved ones can’t have a price

[@aguyontheinternet9095]

Men are giving up on college. Here's my answer in the form of a question: "If you could make the same if not more money and not put yourself into crippling debt to get there why WOULD you go to college?"

[@osiris4883]

Because people with degress have lower rates of unemployment and higher income on average. Furthermore, if they want to go into medicine, law, engineering, accounting, research etc it's often necessary or can at least provide a long-term competitive advantage. I'm not so sure your answer takes this into account also because I don't think it's that simple or so black and white

[@aguyontheinternet9095]

@@osiris4883 You are entirely correct...when the colleges are ACTUALLY doing their job. That’s the entire problem with colleges right now is they require courses less useful than toilet paper for the same price. I.e. gender studies is a required course at many four year schools now. Here’s the other side of that coin. The field I work in now is paying me about 80k a year, I took 6 months of crash courses at a community college trade school course. Here’s the kicker, I’m debt free as I didn’t accumulate up to 500k in student loan debt. You know the kind of debt so vicious you’ll still owe it even if you go bankrupt.

[@aguyontheinternet9095]

Further my brother’s struggle for employment is exactly the OPPOSITE side of mine at that coin. He graduated with DEAN’S list honors from one of the top engineering schools in the country with a bachelor’s in mechanical engineering. Guess where he is now? Repair staff for a sub contractor of a big name company because he focused so much on his studies he didn’t leverage his status as a student for an internship. Even further my father got an associates in robotic engineering. He’s a truck driver now because no one gave him a chance. Ironically they’re offering more for truck drivers right now than entry level robotics engineer positions. Colleges are worth it when they actually get you IN to said fields. When they don’t they’re the most expensive toilet paper dispensers in the world.

[@osiris4883]

@@aguyontheinternet9095 I've never heard of gender studies being required. Can you give me some examples of where this is happening please? Yes of course there are trade-offs like debt or spending so many years at medical school for a non-monetary example but I'm just saying it's not so black and white as many people want to do things like STEM fields and are able to overcome these kind of obstacles. I do understand that higher education isn't flawless and the situations you described do frequently occur but I think the statistics are more reliable than anecdotes for evaluating education and it's consistently demonstrated that your odds for employment and higher income are better with higher education in most cases so it all just really comes down to whether or not it fits your specific needs

[@aguyontheinternet9095]

@@osiris4883 Oregon state university for one and more four year schools are adding that requirement. Btw that one was added to THEIR requirements about five years ago. This isn’t new. While we’re at it high schools are following the same route trying to require CRT. Also you can stuff your statistics when I’m literally one of THREE of those anecdotes in just my family. My mother has a Masters in accounting and it’s taken a decade plus before it actually paid off because she was one of the people who had a LEGITIMATE “glass ceiling” to deal with.

[@BlindMango]

Men are seeing that college is a colossal waste of time and money in most cases, you take pointless remedial classes for the first 3 years and then barely start to learn your major in the last year. Going to a trade school, simply learning a skill free online, or getting a job would be way more of a win and you also won’t be in an unbelievable amount of debt

[@ClickClack_Bam]

This is me you're talking about & it's true. I went for accounting. The first 3 years are a waste, & a SERIOUSLY expensive waste that you CANNOT bypass. Then I got out of college with a $600 a month student loan bill & the average accounting job paid $13/hr. No way can a person pay rent, car payment & that student loan debt & make it. "Buckle down for 6 years & pay it off" they say. Wishful thinking that only works if everything else works out perfectly. And that's 5 years of college plus 6 years of horrible living to pay it off. So 11 years of your life for what? A piece of paper that says you graduated college. I know many people who went the trade route & they're killing it. Look guys. Fuck college. You'll have debt for 20+ years that'll fuck you buying a house, saving for retirement & starting a family. Meanwhile they're giving poc's free rides left & right eddi have ZERO debt because they've tricked YOU INTO PAYING THEIR SHARE!

[@Me__Myself__and__I]

That is absolutely true. Even if you go to college already knowing exactly what subject you want to pursue, most of the classes you take will not be on your subject. This is especially true for the earlier semesters. So if someone gets their bachelor's in 4 years really only the last 2 years contained much of use. Also, something not mentioned here, often times what you learn in college isn't what you actually need working in the real world. College can be detached from real-world practice. This isn't just limited to college either. I knew a few people who spent $$$ going to Cordon Blue culinary school but then couldn't find a good job as a chef. They found out that people who skipped to culinary school and instead got work experience in professional kitchens were more sought after and higher paid than they were coming out of school. Ouch.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

@@ClickClack_Bam To be fair, the family thing is about as broken as college if you're a guy... so the college debt for a low paid job is only really going to screw you on the house buying and retirement saving.

[@Kandralla]

You went to the wrong college. Unfortunately it's hard to find a college and a program that has figured out a good way to balance the need for breadth without sacrificing depth in a bachelors degree program. In a technical degree the metrics you're looking for are reviews from the industries employing their colleges graduates... which requires the program to actually care about improving for a stakeholder they often don't care about (the industries employing their graduates), care about what their graduates are doing, and know to reach out and ask for this valuable information... then you have to hope they'll let people see it. My degree made me a better employee than most of the people I've worked with ... but a lot of that was because my school was trying to graduate well rounded people who had the tools to do well in both industry and a graduate program. My impression is that most colleges see a bachelors degree only as a prerequisite to a graduate degree. The result, in my field, is a lot of engineers who don't know what good enough is; they'll waste weeks trying to optimize a solution to a single problem which almost inevitably gets walked back to the equivalent of what they had when they were 20% of the way through their science project when it's integrated into the entire system.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

@@TheCpj1976 please get your hate speech off of this campus

[@AMeanGecko]

I am a licensed electrician, and the question I'm tired of getting asked is "What class did you need to take to get your apprentice license?". Nobody has to take any classes to get any license in the electrical field, you just have to put in the hours. The elevation of license is checked by the state against your knowledge of the code, and your ability to calculate different electrical loads correctly. The same formulas that electrical engineers use, we use, and I know some electricians that are better at it than the engineers, with no degrees involved. You don't know what to do? No problem, me, or any other experienced electrician on the job can. It's why it's called On the Job training.

[@fuyunghay4214]

so true! nothing beats experience on the field

[@pinoarias8601]

How the hell would you even land a job with absolutely zero experience??

[@alastor8091]

My lead man on my crew has an in law whos an electrical engineer. In law had to call him to figure out how to install a 3 way switch. He tried to change it himself but couldn't figure out how to put the wires back properly. How many years of college? Why does he make any money whatsoever?

[@AlexDenton0451]

@@pinoarias8601 I walked into an office and applied, that was basically it. That and my school system has a list of people who WANT to be hired that are all being sent out to a variety of employers.

[@AMeanGecko]

@@alastor8091 tbf, I have met many industrial electricians that can't wire or troubleshoot a 3-way switch, and make fun of us residential guys for thinking they are easy.

[@livia1256]

My parents really were of the belief that you’re nobody unless you go to college. So I went, couldn’t find a job besides call center work. Meanwhile every man I looked down on for not going to college was and is still making way more than Ilikely ever will. It’s about a skill that makes you valuable. Typing used to be a skill that no one had , but times change and we need to evolve and realize the old beliefs are now dead. Anyone can learn anything if they chose to and they don’t need to get in 6 figure debt to do it.

[@KendrickMan]

Similar here. The guy in mu grade who dropped out youngest managed to start a trucking company and got up to 4 trucks and 3 employees by age 23. Guy with the highest grades who became valedictorian started a distillery and never went to college. The richest people I know didn't need the education they got, and neither had to go to secondary for it. Most of my Uni buddies are all broke, or making average incomes. Hard to have faith in a system with these results

[@ljthirtyfiver]

The fact that you were looking down on anybody is disgusting, you and your parents were I’ll informed

[@mrtalos]

Well done for realising your mistake. Met people who have literally stopped talking to me the moment they found out I'm without a degree, regardless of other factors. Know plenty of other people who have experienced the same. Gets even more crazy when you realise that several jobs didn't require a degree just a couple of decades ago, so you have people in jobs that require a degree now who haven't got one. Know a woman aged 42 in that position and younger people are starting to complain about it. Is she bad at her job? Not even slightly. She learnt the job when it was vocational and has 24 years experience. More time in the job than some of these people have been alive.

[@StarboyXL9]

I hope you ended up old, bitter, and single for looking down on those men.

[@everydayfun9531]

I'm Gonna Decide To drop Out cause College Feel's Bull**** and a Waste of time to me...

[@masterdementer]

"Big dreams are nice, but attainable ones are better." -Horimiya

[@wtfimcrying]

Horimiya

[@linkfromzelda1002]

Is that show good?

[@wtfimcrying]

@@linkfromzelda1002 its ok

[@masterdementer]

@@linkfromzelda1002 I'd say pretty good, not bad but also not to the point you should consider best. Good animation, has some funny moments, okayish romance and good voice acting for both Sub and Dub.

[@linkfromzelda1002]

@@masterdementer Oh okay I'll watch it. Is it still going?

[@someguy7232]

Personally as an computer engineering student, almost all of my classes are 80-90% male. Not only that, all of my technical classes have free textbooks that are provided as a PDF, with nothing required to buy. However, the few liberal arts classes that I have to take often require you to buy extra textbooks and accounts on supplementary websites. This experience is pretty similar among most of my friends in engineering programs.

[@pitchforkrebel5594]

You are getting a functional degree, designed to convey real information with defined occupational objectives. Good for you.

[@Uncle_Yam]

Exact same here - computer science instead though

[@tinytownsoftware7989]

I absolutely hated 4 years of that shit. Even though I was getting a computer science degree, I hate to take all these BS liberal arts classes that required a few hundreds of dollars worth of books per class.

[@pitchforkrebel5594]

@@tinytownsoftware7989 Agreed.

[@Joe_Brig]

More technical trade schools are needed.

[@WhyBeNick]

I told my high school guidance counselor that I wanted to go to a welding school instead of college, and I was met with absolute contempt. It's all anecdotal of course, but this was simply part of my K-12 experience which pounded one thought into everyone's heads, "Go to college or you will fail at life." I now make an excellent living in the trades, and I feel awful for so many of my aimless classmates that were essentially shuttled into the college system. Now they are saddled with immense non-forgivable debt and next-to-useless degrees.

[@jonakill5510]

Yeah, I also had the same experience in highschool. But again I did just finish my welding school last semester.

[@oklahomahank2378]

The job “high school counselor” requires a college degree, so they assume everyone should go to college.

[@ILikeWhatILike69]

The only reason to go to college is for science degrees. It's almost impossible to get a job without a degree. And it makes sense. You need to know plenty of stuff for example in physics. Plenty of math and stuff, same with engineering. Most jobs require a bachelors at least.

[@deadli-us]

STEM degrees can be useful. Any “Liberal Arts” degree is absolutely useless.

[@the_inquisitive_inquisitor]

I started welding school last year. After 10 years of working in restaurants I figured I'm overdue for a real job.

[@24YOA]

There was a time when 4 career types required college. Medical, Legal, Architecture/Engineering, and Science/Math. Now college is a rubber stamp to boost your chances of getting a job.

[@makatogonzo]

You don't even need a degree to start a low emmission truck. Just lie your way to success like Nikola's former founder.

[@billdalton1477]

College: The mortgage without a house.

[@Theking196]

Engineering degrees are only like 60k at most colleges, entry level positions are 60-65k. Little to no debt and you’ll be making 30-40k as an intern at 20-21, and 65k (ish) at 22. By the time you’re 30, you’ll be earning 6 figures with no student loans. Ofcourse engineering degrees are a lot more difficult than most college degrees, which brings us back to the point Luis is making that success is a product of determination and hard work. Most people stay away from engineering because it takes more work.

[@rando3749]

@@Theking196 My buddy is working towards an IT major. He says he spends about 5 hours on homework a week. Meanwhile, I'm spending around 5 hours a day to finish homework / study in general. Engineering is no joke. High school me would not have survived.

[@PURENT]

@@rando3749 IT major? A 4 year degree in IT is questionably wasteful. IT can be done with as little as a high school diploma and various tech certifications, perhaps an associates degree at most. I didn't even graduate in IT, yet I can qualify for a large number of IT jobs.

[@dingfeldersmurfalot4560]

@@Theking196 Umm, no. If you're already hired at 20 after going to college, you probably got into college at 16. That's two years earlier than most people, so you either skipped two years of high school or managed to cram four years of college into two years, or some odd combination of both. Regardless, you've lost all credibility there because what you're describing is not the case for the vast majority of all students. Odd, because that part of your statement is the very easiest to have gotten unassailably right.

[@dingfeldersmurfalot4560]

@@rando3749 A lot of math-related subjects depend on how smart you are. Stephen Hawking hardly studied at all.

[@user-ne2bb5nh7t]

As a professor I've seen an increase in students not being motivated or even feeling like their class is worth their time. I agree that this is because so much of our highschool counseling is surrounded around getting kids "college ready" and not nearly enough of it is centered around "does this person even have to go to college"? Also, societally, not going to college has garnered a lot of negative assumptions as in you weren't smart enough, or got into too much trouble to be accepted, or just aren't ambitious to make anything of your life. This is completely false. A person can go to a trade school and make just as much money, if not more, than someone who has a bachelor's degree. I tell my students in my classes "If you're here only because you were expected to be here, then leave. Pick a CAREER first, THEN go to college only if it is required" As a woman, I can only assume, and I could be completely incorrect, that the large difference between men and women is because many of the more lucrative trade industries heavily lean towards male workers. Construction, electrical, plumbing, etc. Most of these more labor intensive "dirty jobs" are seen as "mans work". That isn't so much the case for women. So I would assume that men who are dissatisfied with college feel that they have other opportunities and pursue them. Women on the other hand aren't in the same situation. Many of the "unskilled" or "trade" jobs that are seen as "women's work" pay a lot less. So even if a woman is dissatisfied with college, they may choose to still stick with it to get their degree just because they feel that is the only way to have access to better paying jobs.

[@AnimeisGarbage]

Right on the money, too much pressure, no flexibility, and more opportunity outside of College. A lot of people in fields that don't even require College that still went will create narratives that their degree helped them a lot due to buyers remorse. Edit: It's also kinda shitty how much everything from our education to healthcare is advertised and run like a business in America.

[@danim955]

YES. You worded everything correct - I'm going into teaching and seeing "college-ready" all the time instead of "career ready" is disappointing. I work with impoverished kids like - cool if they can go to college but telling young people already in a hole with their money to take out loans is evil and feels anti-blue collar and classist. Like STEM is the only option? Bigger emphasis on different job options would be nice. I'm also a woman here and thought the same things you said around non-degreed high-risk jobs being male-dominated. I know the title focuses on men but my headspace around college has been here on my last year of college too ("did I choose the right job or is this only to please my family? I want to do X instead. Oh no I'm paying lots of money back soon" type of thoughts).

[@AnimeisGarbage]

@@danim955 Yep, and honestly, where would we be as a society if not for the people that took jobs outside College? Early education never presents these options, making the choices harder, all that in the name of circulating more money. One of my high school teachers has dealt with student loans in the 6 digits that haven't dropped from the original amount in 20 years.

[@danim955]

@@AnimeisGarbage definately, there's laborious jobs, community jobs (mailmen/public works), trucking jobs, receptionists, and all that keep society going. 6 digit loan for teaching sounds like a nightmare...

[@AnimeisGarbage]

@@danim955 Student loans are lifelong subscription services at this point, at least we may rest assured that jobs aren't getting automated anytime soon, regardless of the theories. Way more resources would go to automating jobs and taking workers with spending money out of the equation. We're always gonna need people to fill these roles.

[@TheBigExclusive]

Many parents who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s saw that college and a Bachelor's degree helped you get ahead in life. The problem is that the world has changed and a Bachelors degree doesn't mean much anymore.

[@crp9985]

No it doesn't. Every asshole has one now.

[@dominikdobrotic8298]

It depends on the degree, but most of them are useless

[@xmlthegreat]

Problem is also the fact that it cost a few months pay in the 60s and 70s for a year of tuition. Now a year's salary won't get you through a semester.

[@Carandini]

That's because the laws were changed so student debt became the only kind of debt that doesn't go away when you go bankrupt. Once that happened, college became a grift.

[@justinecamille7426]

@I'm just a comedian just seeing if I can comment the word asshole, not calling anyone an asshole here

[@nicos1097]

I am 19, graduated high school last year. This is my experience so far so take from it what you will. I knew off the bat that I didn’t want to go to college because I knew it would be a huge amount of spending for four years sitting in a classroom listening to professors and I didn’t want that. My dad has been working HVAC his whole life and I asked if he could get me an interview at the company that he works at. He said yes and I got hired, the demand for techs is very high and they’re willing to invest into young guys. One year later I now work full-time, i’m learning more than I’ve ever learned before, i’m getting very handy with tools, and I get paid to go to my union refrigeration and electrical school. Really nice. The trades are definitely worth your time if you are fed up with institutionalized college.

[@goddessreverierosehawthorn3724]

That’s awesome! For others like myself the go to college script prevented any encouragement or parental support to do trades. Sexism in my case discouraged me from learning automotive or electrical or mechanical technology; the men in my family are mechanics, carpenters and electricians but figured I was a waste of time to teach since I didn’t have male bits in my pants. I’m actually eager to learn about indoor ag tech and hate that I’m graduating with a skill-less & useless degree when I could have been practicing sustainability vs sitting down writing papers about it.

[@UserName-ts3sp]

i actually went to a vocational high school (auto collision) and realized that shit wasn't for me... im glad i went and realized that. high schools should have more options to learn trades and what not.

[@kenos911]

I am probably going to have to go to college because A: parental pressure B: it’s cheaper in Canada C: the field I want to work in and am passionate about basically requires it D: did I say parental pressure yet

[@tinawrinn2549]

And the institutions brain washing!

[@ooievaar6756]

@@goddessreverierosehawthorn3724 Try a craft/trade that is do able, like electrician, old crafts, agro-industry, procesindustry (rotating shifts though..), mechanics is pretty clean and robotised nowadays. Even I (male) dont like lots of macho-stupid-burping men on the workfloor. But nail polishing gossiping woman an be as bad. The best workplace is where you arent the only woman, or male. And if you are, that you know you are accepted.

[@taken_over3416]

The two overhauls that the college system needs are 1 remove frills: community colleges have this right. The quality of instruction should be what all the budget goes into. 2 Only those classes which are necessary to do the work in your field should be required. Both of these would drive the investment down both in time and cost without losing any of the knowledge gained.

[@ZMCarsandMore]

Requires too much common sense. Also, too much money is made with the current system. I received a finance degree and during my final year, I realized that the majority of the information I learned, I could have learned online for free. The internet has given people unprecedented opportunity. Like in the video, it depends on an individual's drive.

[@ThatGastrodon]

This is absolutely why I won't go back to college. I'd love to go if only for the opportunities allowed, but I can't get over the cost and time investment, as well as having to spend most of the time there doing unrelated bullshit. It's a scam.

[@leflavius_nl5370]

noooo but what are we gonna do without our 6 months of mandatory gender studies classes for the mechanical engineering curriculum? everybody knows you can't design a crane if you don't understand your gender bias reeee

[@danjayh]

CC doesn't put money into quality instruction. They rely heavily on adjuncts, who they grossly underpay. As a result, the only people who will teach as an adjunct are 1) people who aren't good enough to get a job in industry, and 2) people who are doing it as a hobby. I taught as an adjunct as a hobby, and immediately quit when I had kids. No way I'm giving up time with my family to effectively get paid 80% less for an hour of work than industry pays (sw development).

[@jaystrickland4151]

Faculty want the frills. I think it was Columbia that had a private island in Fiji used to host faculty retreats.

[@aregularperson7573]

As a young man I have given up on college because of debt traps

[@MisterZimbabwe]

How is that a man-exclusive problem though? Women have to pay tuition too.

[@shuwan4games]

@@MisterZimbabwe it definitely isn't but as a man you can get into manual labor jobs easier, which if you go to college for 4 years you can end out making the same as those

[@albyc1nu13]

@@MisterZimbabwe maybe your reading too much in to man. Alternatively he could of said young person, a person of young age or youngun which doesnt sound right now. Maybe there is a better sentence out there but not everyone is thinking about racial, gender, sexual orientation as a primary thought. Some of us live normal lives without "i said man or just woman,better explain myself so the hate crowd doesn't jump on me"

[@aregularperson7573]

@@albyc1nu13 that is exactly what I was saying

[@albyc1nu13]

@@aregularperson7573 i know man, i get you. i type my thoughts and my thoughts aren't normally judging as i dont have grudges against anyone who doesnt deserve it. ill think what i want to type so to be offensive if i actually want to be

[@themetadaemon]

The problem I had with college is all the "padding". Courses that they said would be valuable in the working world, but were really just there to inflate the tuition. I figure I could have learned enough to be as successful as I am in about half the time as college took.

[@macktheripper7454]

For me it was about 10%. I could have done college in a year.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

All of the good stuff I had in college for a CS degree could easily be packed into about 2 semesters, and probably not even full time for both of them.

[@Channel-gz9hm]

You need the feminist dance theory class to be a well rounded citizen, bigot.

[@arnox4554]

Actually, at least for some of it, colleges don't really have a choice. I know at least in pretty much any engineering degree, required courses are mandated by the ABET if the school wants to be accredited by them. I've heard rumors that some colleges now just want to dump this though.

[@Channel-gz9hm]

@@arnox4554 if your university requires a third party accreditation then they must not be confident in their own name to sell the idea that their graduates are quality. The whole point of college was to be a defacto personal accreditation of yourself. If the accreditor has to be accredited doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?

[@scar623]

It’s almost like America is run like a corporation. (Healthcare, Housing, College, Insurance, etc.)

[@StratumPress]

You mean like a group of incorporated individuals? Yes, because we are. That's what a corporation is... Run it like a commune and get the shovels ready as the mass graves will need to be prepared.

[@lardusbirmingham7020]

@@StratumPress Because there are no examples in today's world of countries that have higher life expectancies, cheaper to free education and Healthcare, and a better standard of living than the US, right? This take is either braindead, or you missed his point entirely. I guess any attempt at bettering society through economically feasible means is equal to communes run by a dirt poor country right out of the dark ages. Use your brain a little when you think about politics

[@bakerbakerbaker305]

we’re just numbers sometimes

[@Beekeeper8011]

@@lardusbirmingham7020 those countries pay a lot more taxes than Americans do.

[@fortomorrowwehunt8449]

@@StratumPress there already is mass graves what with suicides being at all time highs, opioid crisis etc. since people don't matter in a socialist capitalist system

[@brokenstereotype]

Sometimes I think that ill go back to NYU to finish and have that sense of accomplishment & closure…. But then I just start another small business.

[@sumone1930]

Name one we could support as a consumer. (if possible)

[@123cbman]

Me too. I tried to go back to finish, but I kept opening up new businesses (Air freight, ocean freight, messenger service, counsel service, customs brokerage, consulting). A law professor at NYU hired me to be his assistant and teach the class about trade laws, Customs Law, Export Law.

[@Skoomz]

Go to a real school lol

[@letsgosurfing1786]

I feel the same about closure. But looking at putting another four people on.

[@DairyAir]

Something to do when you retire

[@legoboy-ox2kx]

I used to be incredibly self-motivated, and back then I didn't want to stay in school, I wanted to do my own thing and get out, but adults kept beating it into my head until I got so burnt out I didn't even want to do anything with education anymore

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

Same, I dropped out of University before I got my bachelor's. Going to school was a massive waste of time. The only good thing about it was that it was where I met my wife.

[@cerebraldreams4738]

My family pushed me into going back to college because I was studying differential equations and software design on my own time, for fun. I didn't mind the idea of taking tests to prove what I knew, to get a degree, but I will never again take a class, in a classroom environment. Either give me a book and schedule a fucking test, or take that shit and get the fuck out of my face. I'm not listening to some asswhipe drone on for five hours a week, only to find out I'M the one who has to pay for that shit.

[@remysadventures-official8357]

Same here...

[@alex__zander]

They make it sound like the guy who dropped out and lives with his mom is a failure for having a job that pays $20.00 an hour. If he works 40 hours a week that's $41,600 a year that's not bad at all for being just 23 years old. After a year or year and half so he can easily get his own apartment and may not even need roommates depending on where he lives and have his own vehicle and auto insurance. Sounds like the guy is doing what he needs to be doing.

[@scarface11991]

This. They make it sound like everyone who doesn't make 100.000 Bucks a year is a failure. You can have a good life with 20 Bucks an hour, you just can't live in downtown New York. The most important thing though is that you have to be happy where you are in live. If you are not then try to change it. I worked at shitty companies before until I found a job that I really like and I'm making about 22 Bucks an hour and have a good life here in Germany. I don't need to be a millionaire and am happy where I am in life, that's the most important thing.

[@Maki-00]

I once made $20/hr. as a barista in a hotel in NYC. This was more money than all the office jobs offered AND they required a degree. I worked in many coffee shops over the years and there were always people working beside me who had degrees, yet were making $10 or $11/hr. Once, I saw this, I didn’t even bother trying to finish college.

[@dandman9373]

$20/hr?? boi that's above minimum wage

[@nguyenbagiap7433]

How many can drop out and get a 20/h job that require no degree? And how many can stick with it? For one there is like 100 who flip burger. Hell, once you work in the real world, the 20/h will eventually end up back into college for most people. The problem here is the insane lack of experience from high schoolers in real life to choose where they want to work in. They just thought of what the next door hottie doing and now forced to make choice that will impact their like in 10-15 years. It is dumb, they need real world experience before apply for college. At least 1 year.

[@yungdaunon1114]

Damn this makes me wonder if I should go to college because honestly am tried working a job at a car wash making 10.50 but u have to kiss ass to move up and get money and am not that type of person . I wanted to go community college for graphic design and illustration

[@Patrick.Weightman]

The thing with college is they *ALL* treat it like high school as a way to squeeze as MUCH money from you as possible. For example: If I want to practice constitutional law, why should I have to take several semesters of advanced mathematics? If I'm studying to become a mechanical engineer, why should I be forced to take science classes focusing on things like biology and psychology? If you ask any of these institutions why that is, they *ALL* give you some response along the lines of _"that's just how it goes."_ Colleges all across the country force people to effectively double up their schedule with courses they will NEVER need or utilize, and fill the other half with repetitive/remedial classes for no other reason that raking in tuition costs. Only to be rewarded with a job that pays them only $5 more if they DIDN'T get a degree (though this can be heavily attributed to an oversaturation of degrees in society these days) In short, people are done with this ass-backwards system.

[@sonicpsycho13]

Most academic institutes still pursue under the philosophy that education is is valuable in and of itself and students shouldn't just be training to do a job, but should be exposed to a variety of concepts. It's just like how good employers want workers that have interests outside of work. The requirement to take out-of-major electives is develop well-roundedness. Philosophy: how to ask questions. Economics: how people and money interact. Biology: how my body works. Mathematics: money, taxes, measurements. Chemistry: why you shouldn't mix bleach and ammonia. Sociology: other people are different. Statistics: what all those graphs actually mean.

[@Patrick.Weightman]

@@sonicpsycho13 I'm aware what the basic idea is behind it, I'm saying we the average student experiences is executed in a *FAR* different manner that's completely estranged from it's original intent. You're having a laugh if you think it's _that_ cut and dry. I myself was vastly oversimplifying.

[@bakerbakerbaker305]

I think it’s old school it’s an old school principal that for some reason is still carried out today, the principal there’s nothing else to rely on but a dedicated education system there was no KZbin and internet long time ago

[@Andy-im3kj]

This type of education started decades ago and nobody stopped to question it and now we have this monster of an industrial complex that America has to deal with.

[@dadbodenvy4247]

@@Andy-im3kj the real monster was born when we didn't do anything about all the lending companies giving out these crazy loans to 18 year olds with no plan for how they'd repay it after college. It's a very similar situation to the 2008 housing bubble.

[@ultraNewt]

After the second semester college, I was 100% in conserve energy mode. I rarely felt like I more effort was rewarded, and whenever I told my advisor that the classes weren't resonating they just told me that I wouldn't use that stuff once I got on the job. Unless I find a job in my field soon, I will have taken 25k in debt for a social club with deadlines and extra steps.

[@MrCantStopTheRobot]

A social club that you might not even be able to trust, that might not be up to good antics.

[@ThingsILikke]

My sister said the same thing about her college experience and she went to a very difficult one- she thought it was unfair how her professors did not have to do much work for her beyond dolling out assignments, but they were in such control of her grades although she was paying to be there. She did have some good ones but she thought many of them had an inflated ego and that they really were the ones in the service position but they tried to turn it into a power position when all the students had to work to please them.

[@seanrhinehart117]

College is just like work, but the money goes in the wrong direction.

[@iridescentsea3730]

@@ThingsILikke Oh my god that is EXACTLY how I felt. Some teachers were so controlling it was upsetting.

[@ariannasv22]

I'm currently in college and I'm literally just relearning some of the stuff I've learned back in highschool, not even classes that were considered "advanced" back in highschool. It's very mindnumbing and does feel very useless to me.

[@worldtownfc]

Yeah, I had the same experience as well. Eventually, you'll move up into upper-division classes for your major, where you'll learn new or advanced stuff. I raced to graduate in four years although if I took summer classes, I probably could have graduated in three years. I wanted to save money and finish sooner than waste any more time and rack up more debts there. If some classes are useless, then do your best to pass them quickly, so you don't waste any more money on them.

[@magiceel123]

I’m in my sophomore year. I learn far more in my free time when bored than in classrooms.

[@JoshGariepy]

I go to a community college and this was the case for me as well during my first 2 semesters. Paid $4000 (not as much as some, but still alot) to watch KZbin videos that a professor took 2 seconds to post to his online classroom because apparently a strong understanding of psychology is required for a degree in welding.

[@sonderexpeditions]

Same thing they made me do. Waste of time.

[@nick_g]

It’s a pretty universal experience that your first 2 years are basically high school again except now you pay $$,$$$ to do it over. Working in tech start ups over the years I can tell you that a college degree is something HR puts on all the requirements but experience is more valuable than a college degree most of the time. Hell, you could just lie about the degree, get the interview and then if you impress during the interview then NO ONE really cares about the degree even if it’s a Masters in whatever. Doesn’t matter anymore. Second life lesson here. It’s 95% WHO you know and 5% WHAT you know.

[@wendystacos7447]

I think there’s a huge missed point on college affordability too. Part of the reason it’s so expensive is they make you go for 4 years when you don’t need it. I’m a big 4 accountant now and while I’m very thankful for the position I’m in, I should’ve only been in college 2 years. That was all that was relevant and my business/accounting classes. The other 2 years was British literature, gender studies, etc. all useless stuff. I get being well rounded, but that’s what high school was for.

[@dominusnoobus1589]

Gender studies is the most stupid and most worthless course that you listed

[@josephsilva9403]

Oooo I'm currently doing comunity college for a accounting degree with a transfer, instate tuition is around 10-12k which to me is pretty cheap compared to other ones being as much as a middle class house, how much do you think a year? Would you say the degree helped you get hired?

[@wendystacos7447]

@@josephsilva9403 internships are important! I did an internship right before I graduated and they gave me an offer. Your degree will definitely help you get hired anywhere, but try to get in to a place you like early through an internship or leadership program.

[@josephsilva9403]

@@wendystacos7447 Gotcha! I will def be using the career areas of the college then thank you

[@nothingreallyrhymeswithora9377]

@@wendystacos7447 I would definitely advise a lot of kids to learn how to socialize/network. That will get you further than any damn degree.

[@pjpleiss]

At 40yrs old, I wanted to get my bachelors for the employment benefits. I enrolled at univerisity. When the pandemic kicked in, everything basically got paused and I sat back and ran the numbers. Even cutting corners to save money, tuition alone was basically a new car every other semester. With only 20 good working years left, an extra 80k of debt wasn't worth the extra money.

[@beezrow]

Wow that's a steep cost at our age, I kinda made the same decision as you, if only you lived in my country where years of experience in your field of study actually reduces your -criminal- *"college sentence"* 🤣🤣🤣

[@chefbink61]

I retired from Caterpillar dealer. I started out on the floor, Field Service, mid management and worked my way up Branch Manager . I did take collage courses but never got a degree. I just never really saw the need for it. In one of my last reviews my manager told me that I had topped out, and could not move up any higher with out a degree. I asked him well what should I get a degree in. He said what ever you want. We just would like to see the degree in anything. I asked him, why do I need this degree if you don't care if it's in. He said because it shows "Commitment in yourself"! Now mind you I had 25 years in the industry at this time, and 10 years of it was in management. I'm not sure how much more commitment they really wanted to see then 25 + years that I worked for them. Plus it not like the people that had the degrees were making more money. I did very well for myself, and ran a very profitable store. I had a really great crew that worked as hard as I did, and I owe my successes to them, not a collage degree.

[@redhammer92]

That last sentence alone give me the idea you would be great to work for. Im always more than happy to make a great boss look good by working hard. Excellent way to nab their spot when they move up ;)

[@MiGujack3]

Ahhh the "Commitment in yourself" aka company policy.

[@pickyourbrainswithbenjamin761]

Its what the sr leaders were taught

[@chefbink61]

@@MiGujack3 yup

[@bigpjohnson]

@@MiGujack3 aka easy excuse for HR to pare down resumes so less to interview. Workers with loans will also be stuck because they need to pay them off, and will rock the boat less.

[@neelsdp1]

Young men have to really figure out what they want to do... It is very hard. it takes time. It took me years. I mostly studied part time, fourteen years, never having a study loan. Three degrees and a diploma later, my education put food on my table for at least twenty years. It paid off. I might have done done better, or worse, as a business man. Now I'm making a living not using the knowledge I paid for, my hobby became my job, I trained myself. I will not become rich but it makes me happy:)

[@opetke]

Hats off to you sir! More young men need to go to work for small companies where they can learn and earn. Pick up those skills you need as you go along. It a little scary at first, but very rewarding.

[@MrKillswitch88]

To be frank there isn't a lot in it for younger men and young people in general compared to older demographics given the overall decline of western society. The money just isn't there aside from a few than managed through thick and thin to make it work. If they avoid the debt trap and go straight to trade school they got much better chances however they can still get fucked over if they are not careful such as buying a house in a high tax blue state ect.

[@houghwhite411]

Rich is not always the goal. Being self sufficient is always the goal. Congratulations on your achievement

[@Channel-gz9hm]

That's great, but your never taking a loan out is unrealistic for almost everyone now. Check prices nowadays sometime.

[@houghwhite411]

@@Channel-gz9hm But not taking a study loan is still kinda achievable, depending on one's initial monetary condition

[@Pikachu19972]

As a broken man who has severe depression and was cheated on its hard to want to be around other people

[@LeonesAce]

Damn that's tough

[@brianj1r144]

When you get through . The alcohol fixes the problem phase. Being a loner is quite fun :P. Hang in there but if you gotta babymomma. That’s when you know . You will have drama with her bs for a year or so .

[@Slothups]

You're going to be ok man, push through and it WILL be worth it

[@bandolierboy1908]

Don’t listen to the guy talking about alcohol. that shit will drown your soul. Smoke weed instead. The loneliness will be next to nothing once you’re up in the clouds, trust me

[@ki11aqueen5]

Bro stop being a simp, my life issues don't revolve around a woman leaving me. I've been there done that. My life issues are about my depression and my existential crisis, I still don't know who I really am and where I fit in this world. I really don't understand people who can't get over women. They're just women. I was cheated on on valentines day and was slapped because I got mad, I was abused in my relationship. My ex used to threaten to kill herself if I left her. I've been through all that. And all I can say is relationships is the least of my problems. I'm trying to fix myself.

[@michaelhansen6977]

My son was pushed hard to go to college, but I convinced him to become an electrical apprentice. He is now more than 1/2 way to his journeyman and he works mostly prevailing wage jobs. Additionally, this work is paying 100% the cost of his technical school and he has enough money to fly out to watch away games for his favorite teams, if he went to college he would be broke and just starting his 3rd year of school.

[@jaimeastin]

He has a skill that will always be needed.

[@brokenstereotype]

Probably by the time he’s 30, he’ll have his own company and a fleet guys doing the jobs for him. 👏

[@DNUGZZ]

Man i wish i had parents like you. I ignored opportunities for ~4 years and wasted so much time with college because both my parents wanted to disown me if i didnt get a degree. Now im making 70k with a totally unrelated job that i could have started straight out of highschool lmao. (Medical courier)

[@123cbman]

@@DNUGZZ Buddy, do into business for yourself. I did it during the late 80's were in air freight I was required to hire a courier. I did and thought perhaps I can be the courier get paid while I work for my employer. At that time I was able to use the employer's resources and they never knew. They paid my company and me under a salary. Technology killed me. However I opened several more businesses. Good luck to you sir.

[@nick_g]

In 10 years AI will replace most doctors, lawyers, truckers, maybe some programming work too. The electrician job is solid.

[@Sting_ray]

I have told several of my friends that dropping out of college was the best decision I ever made. I have zero debt, I own my car (no lease), and I recently started calculating my net worth (savings, checking, stocks, Roth IRA, etc. excluding depreciating assets such as that car) and was pleased to realize that I am in the top 5% of my age range when it comes to money. Most of my friends have student loans and can’t find a job that uses their specific degree. Now, I’m not implying that college is useless, but I do think that unless you have a clear plan set out that REQUIRES a degree, then your time and money is better placed elsewhere.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

In many cases, college is worse than useless. Not only are you borrowing money for something useless, but you're also wasting precious years of your life that could be spent on something productive. The difference after 4 years between going to college and working a low-tier job could easily a six figure sum of money for someone's net worth, while having roughly the same "employability" afterwards if the degree earned was useless.

[@MrKillswitch88]

The student loads couple with the high cost of housing is what sunk the futures of so many under 40. I wished that I went straight to trade school instead of college.

[@zoidberg444]

I have modest savings, live in a 5Mx2M shed for £200/month and own a 15YO Toyota. Among people my age I'm pretty good. Most people I know are drowning in debt. I only have to work 4 nights a week. I do my 48 hours and that's it. No stress. I leave my work at work.

[@awesomeferret]

Yeah, all of that can be had with a college degree too though. There are still plenty of community colleges with tuition under 10 grand a year (my local one is 5, so yes, that's about 20 grand for a full 4 year degree). I bet many of you reading this comment spent more than that on your car.

[@foxdog9332]

@@ordinaryhuman5645 I would say dental school is worth it.

[@skedarblegarble]

bachelors' then split. Community College for certs and associates, uni for the last few classes for the degree. It's slower but you save a ton, and I work while taking most of a full courseload.

[@towel9646]

Yeah that’s what I’m doing rn. CC is a bit of a lifesaver tbh, it is much much cheaper

[@kevinc9065]

CC is the real hero of education

[@christheother9088]

When I went to Community College I paid as I went with gas pumping money. Plus the quality of education was better than any other institution I went to.

[@manwithnolife5239]

My parents insist that I spend 10-20k a year on a college program, but I simply don't want to invest all my time and resources on a declining school system that will give me a degree in an oversaturated market. I want to learn to be self sufficient and I don't need a piece of paper to do that.

[@At0micMeltd0wn]

It's your decision. Hear them out, but I agree with you.

[@thebiggestpanda1]

You can always go back to college in a few years if you want to. If you want to try something else first, go for it.

[@Dominus_Potatus]

Here is my asian perspective: College makes your chance higher depends on the majors... You can't beat engineering, medical, science and computer degree in term of incomes and opportunities.

[@macktheripper7454]

@@Dominus_Potatus as a comp science graduate I disagree. If you’re male gasp 😱 and or white double gasp 😱 you’ll be at the back of every hiring process over women, people of colour and lgbtq folks. Meaning that your chances of actually landing a job in your field are what? 10% 20%? Hence, I don’t think it’s worth it at all.

[@InfernosReaper]

Dude, with that $40-80k, you could own a home in a part of the country that isn't super-expensive then work a slightly above minimum wage job and be far better off than you would with the student loans and a mortgage or rent.

[@mrguy3029]

Title should read: “People Realize College Too Expensive so They Choose to Work Instead of Go Into Debt for Antiquated Education System”

[@Zanthorr]

The only reason I didn't go was because of the debt. My parents weren't going to pay for it and even as a dumb 18yo I knew being 40k in debt by the time I'm 22 was probably a bad idea. Especially since I didn't know what I wanted to do. If you're a senior that's passionate about something, then go for it, otherwise wait.

[@Schnittertm1]

Law, medicine and the hard sciences are probably still worth it. However, the soft sciences (e.g. humanities) often aren't really worth it, as they don't really do teach you many skills and often don't even work on scientific principles, making their findings questionable at best.

[@cherryjuice9946]

@@Schnittertm1 So true. In fact, when you count the number of non-reproducible studies that got published in a peer review journal, it's the Social "Sciences" that have the greatest problems. Lots of those studies are poorly done and often reflect the wacky views the researchers already believe. Replication in the real sciences is a lot better.

[@InnuendoXP]

@@Zanthorr it's insane that they require you to choose what you want to do without letting you actually try doing things first

[@BriBCG]

I would imagine college was a lot more useful resource in the past. There are so many ways to learn these days which can be just as good or potentially better than what you might get in college while costing significantly less, often free.

[@GrimboBagworth]

When it wasn’t just 60% gen Ed requirements and 40% actual material I’m sure it was useful. Now it’s just an excuse for money. The sports, the dorms, the food, it’s all money tactics

[@fwefhwe4232]

yes ! its the same as petrol pumps after evs take over. ppl used to go there to get petrol, now no need to go to a pump to get "ahead" in life haha you charge at your home. same disruption is with education. I enjoy MIT lectures on my internet TV sitting here in India. the content is free. degrees are getting worthless.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@fwefhwe4232 EVs are kind of a bad example because they're a lateral progress of tech, *at best* One day, though, the battery tech might get there. Until then, hydrogen the better option over batteries, but sadly neglected

[@mrknarf4438]

Yeah, I see networking as the true value of college. But there are many other ways to network too. College is basically autoreferential, a vicious circle that's getting more and more unaffordable.

[@CaptainSkelly]

Went to college and felt lost. Went into the trade job scene and now I'm a house interior and exterior painter a year later and LOVING IT. Kids don't get told how fun and cool trade jobs are enough.

[@THE_BATLORD]

That guy working at coke actually has a good job. Many coke plants have their delivery drivers unionized under the teamsters union. Its possible he only has a class c but people at coke with class a liscences easily make like 50-80k a year or more not to mention getting in on the teamster pension and health insurance.

[@ethanstefanisin6509]

I was a forklift driver at coke for a wile and was making 25 an hour which is very good for a 20 year old

[@ethanstump]

again, more data showing that unions basically do what colleges promise to do, which is to get you better pay and benefits.

[@VonGeggry]

Seriously. Most college jobs won't be paying much more than 20$ an hour. After the time and cost college just wouldn't make sense. If I was making 20$ an hour before college there is NO way I would have gone to school for 4 years to make 30$ an hour. (I make more now, and I really don't regret my decision, but I also got pretty lucky, and chose Electrical Engineering)

[@foxyloon]

My thoughts exactly! That guy working at Coke is making really good money, all things considered. It's like the article is shaming people for not conforming to the idea of "you need college to be successful".

[@arnox4554]

@@VonGeggry Somewhat unrelated, but do EEs write drivers as well or is that something that is given to another position to do?

[@danploehn]

The past decades you have seen a huge effort to help women and girls succeed. I think that’s great. What I don’t see his support groups and help for young boys, I feel as though people think they should just “figure it out”.

[@jakemf1]

Bingo

[@TheDeathmail]

It should be noted that those groups were originally created to support girls because for a long time, girls were almost discouraged from work and education...

[@tommygunrunner4656]

@@TheDeathmail it should be underscored that those groups are going to break an arm with their current overreach. Inorganically trying to shoehorn women into stem and other lucrative fields but not less prestigious trades says all you need to know.

[@joannleichliter4308]

Amen, Bigg.

[@nickd2296]

Gen Z will be a generation of Men that were left behind.

[@gmt1]

I remember in highschool some graduates came in to voice their experience on higher education after HS. One girl was going for a law degree and said she was $120,000 AUD in debt. The others ranged from $5000 to $60,000 in debt. Instantly turned me away from even touching college/uni. At the time the only scholarships available were for Indigenous people and women.

[@QueueTeePies]

That’s the problem I have. Why not give scholarships to highly driven students that can’t afford and not ethnicity based. Thank god i graduated with not only zero debt but a net positive because my scholarship is higher than the tuition. Dont fall for the private uni crap, go to a state/city university.

[@adriangutierrez3196]

@@QueueTeePies their is scholarships for highly driven students????theirs scholarships for literally everything, I think u just weren’t looking enough…

[@Quentinthemudkip]

@@adriangutierrez3196 their is but they’re way less than just being able to apply for having a certain trait plus they discriminate against white males

[@scottcornford1644]

to be fair Australian UNI is definitely different to US college for one your hex debt will be the cheapest money you will ever get your hands on including a mortgage that 120 000k debt in terms of financial strain is probably more around cost of say 30k regular debt if that

[@BichaelStevens]

The fact that even those old enough to be my parents are telling me to just "go get that useless paper, bosses care about that shit" is telling

[@dennisp8520]

They are not wrong, I can assure you that a lot of companies still care about the degree. I’m not talking companies that are smaller but large companies with like 1000+ employees

[@BichaelStevens]

@@dennisp8520 Thank you for reiterating the quote

[@cianchim9034]

@@dennisp8520 google,tesla,spacex,microsoft all these companies don't see your collage degree as any meaningfull proof.they demand skill.if you can prove you have skills then they will brake rules for you.because they can make profit out of you

[@kenos911]

@@cianchim9034 Yes, but for the spacex example, they might consider you as more likely to have skill with a degree. Tesla coal mines require kids working for 10 cents an hour, not skill. Google does require skill, but their job application requires complete memorization of how to do things in unrealistic amounts of time. Microsoft is less strict, thank god

[@roxycauldwell544]

@@cianchim9034 lol are you kidding? You absolutely need a hefty degree at a prestigious college to get into those companies

[@masonreeves3426]

i work in IT - if i could go back, i would skip college and get a couple certifications and just work my way up from there. college was a colossal waste of money for me

[@ClayMastah344]

Which certifications?

[@opetke]

My buddy did this in lieu of college. Started at 85k. I got a BS in Business. Started at 35k.

[@sylviam6535]

1 x CCIE is worth 3 x PhDs.

[@user-lt2rw5nr9s]

Apparently at my college you work towards getting certifications. Then what was the point of going if I could of just studied for that on my own!

[@MadocComadrin]

@@sylviam6535 A PhD is essentially a research apprenticeship, so no.

[@radtronic]

Thank you Louis! As a 23 year old male in that exact position, associates degree and felt college wasn't what I thought it was. There's so many other options in life and college isn't what makes or breaks your life.

[@sullenfps]

You’re inspiring Louis. I’m also more of a “banging my head against the wall until 4am to understand something” kind of person and It’s motivating to see how far you’ve come with the same or similar mentality

[@houghwhite411]

I'm that kind of person too. It's satisfying when I find understanding on what I am banging my head for

[@silak33]

As a software engineer I think the most useful thing about college for me has been that I have a deeper understanding about some subjects (or even sometimes just know that it is something that exists). Though it is probably information which I could have gotten other ways. I knew several people who got through college without ever buying any books :P I don't think it would have been worth it if college was something which you had to go into debt to get into like in America. Where I'm from we are paid by the state while in college ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@politicaltimes9467]

@@Just-Jaci Thats good I have a college degree in computer science and have yet to get a job in the field, its been 3 years since I graduated

[@rrutter81]

...and yet people like me without a degree but in the same field have no issues earning 6 figures without the debt or loss of 4 years of your life. college is a scam imo. if i want to learn something new, i can youtube it or read an article.

[@silak33]

@@rrutter81 I don't quite know what part it is you are answering to? Are you agreeing with my comment about how I doubt I would have gone to college if I had to pay for it like in America? Are you saying I got scammed by going to college even though I got paid for doing so and overall had a fun time? What are you saying?

[@rrutter81]

@@silak33 was more of a combo reply since the comment below you has a college degree, and cant find a job. If you found value in college and were paid to do it, thats good on you. Most people are not in your situation though.

[@silak33]

@@rrutter81 Fair enough

[@andrewr.786]

Having close friends who are quite successful already in their early 20s with and without degrees, I agree it's greatly based on mentality. You absolutely need to be driven and grab opportunities available to succeed regardless of how much it knocks you down. Education and learning are important for personal growth but sadly few schools require what I experienced. I had the drive but good education shaped it and directed it. Now I'm working on a PhD and I don't regret a thing, but I understand how many would.

[@bigpjohnson]

Many people to to college without any real clue of what to study, or to "find themselves." Those are the same people who wind up dropping out or racking huge bills. The people who are motivated and have a plan, would do well even without a degree, and will do even better with a degree. If you're not motivated, college wont fix it for you!

[@craigman7262]

@@bigpjohnson Right. I would rather give you a small loan if you have a blueprint of a business idea rather than give you money to go find yourself lol

[@MizaT11]

I'm 22 and ended up not going to college.. I've been dealing with depression and anxiety since I graduated, having recurring nightmares of all my friends being way ahead of me because they went to college. They've now since graduated, and I still do feel like a failure pretty often. But at least in recent times I've slowly begun to accept that maybe college isn't the end all be all. Making a decent amount of money through art, as well as finding an interest in repairing stuff, has me a little more optimistic for the future now.

[@baristaTam]

I am so happy and blessed that the bill from only one year of tuition woke me up and I told myself "I cannot afford this" and didn't put myself in further debt. 7 years of tech jobs and no degree later the same Uni I dropped out of is paying me nearly six figures as one of their senior engineers.

[@macktheripper7454]

Flawless victory

[@InnuendoXP]

How did you transition into engineering with no degree? Is it basically just foot in the door at somewhere with an IT department then take tech courses & train up as you go?

[@redhammer92]

@@InnuendoXP Im going to assume they knew someone. Thats about the only way people without degrees get spots like that.

[@normanasher5006]

There's also the fact that 3/4 of college students come from families in the top 1/4 of the income scale. So they start off with more self-confidence, better health (physical & mental), & great family connections. If dad belongs to a golf or country club, he just might have friends there who can hire you or connect you to a good career. As the old truism goes, it's not what you know, but....you know the rest.

[@Philsburneraccount]

Underrated comment. Impoverished families beat college into their children's mind because that's what most think as the way out of poverty.

[@innocentsmith6091]

That math doesn't add up. Around 44% of Americans have degrees.

[@T4xEvader]

Writing “but who you know” is literally shorter than what you wrote. Why did you just not write that?

[@La0bouchere]

Ironically, going to college is one of the best ways to make those types of connections if you don't already have them.

[@kenos911]

Yeah no. The amount of income doesn’t matter mental health wise. You can be rich and be depressed as fuck

[@Gattone_91]

I gave up on university too. In my country, Italy, university is pretty much useless now. You get a shiny degree that is worth nothing when you search for a job. We get proposed 2-3 euros an hour jobs anyway. So you spend 20k+ for university and you gain back 500 euros a month... Not worth it.

[@freakinA10202]

Dude that’s so sad, I just googled that Italy has no minimum wage

[@X786BBF]

Wow, shocking man

[@TheBooban]

@@freakinA10202 neither does Sweden. Funny the minimum wage debate in the US.

[@Bynming]

@@TheBooban Sweden has strong collective bargaining (basically unions). Minimum wage isn't as important when so many businesses are unionized and therefore offer competitive wages by default. That sort of competition from jobs with strong collective agreements naturally drives wages up.

[@ErikaLaGrande]

Isn’t University free in Italy? I lived in Rome for 6 years and from what I understood, La Sapienza is free. The University system is strange there. It is quite unlike the US. In Italy, no one I knew ever went to class, but they were always “studying”. Most seemed like they were doing nothing. It seemed like a way to avoid getting a job. Anyway, back in the mid 90s, I worked in a small boutique and the take home for the girls “in regola” was 1.5 million lira/ month. Depending on the exchange rate at the time, that was over $1,000/month. So, how can wages have gone DOWN 50% in 25 years?

[@silas6328]

"Article: Men are giving up on college. Thoughts?" .... Good.

[@kneesnap1041]

It's not good. It means college is failing our generation. This isn't a good situation, college needs to be significantly cheaper, or significantly better at leading to a job. Education should never be a bad thing.

[@kennypowers2341]

@@kneesnap1041 "This isn't a good situation, college needs to be significantly cheaper" i hope you don't mean putting taxpayer money into a broken system, but if you mean forcing these horrible places to be on the verge of bankruptcy and have them fix their ways and focus on a better online learning model then hell yeah

[@kneesnap1041]

@@kennypowers2341 No, I don't mean that at all. I mean reform that takes away college incentives to make it cost so much. Throwing more money at the problem isn't gonna help. I don't pretend to understand all of the complexities of such a thing, but what I can see is how the cost didn't used to be so high, and now it's super high, despite colleges offering the same thing now that they did 30 years ago. If they were able to make it work back then with cheaper prices, then why can't it work that way now too? I don't know about bankrupting schools, but there should certainly be something that encourages schools to not price-gouge students.

[@Channel-gz9hm]

@@kneesnap1041 yeah, cancel the entire federal student loan program as it currently exists. There should have NEVER been a program that hands 17 year olds an unlimited amount of debt for anything they could dream up. Look at Japan for a reasonable way to do it. The government offers subsidized loans for careers the nation is short on labor for, providing an incentive. You don't get guaranteed loans for PolySci or Journalism.

[@retarteddwarf2182]

College has become a warehouse for the young to keep them out of the workforce and start them off in life with a lot of debt and and not much else. The real advantage in college has dwindled so I would think twice about attending vs. finding a job that you can advance in -or- working your own business idea. Buyer beware when it comes to college today.

[@chadmanster1883]

After hearing that first sentence has made me think that, that makes the young people more reliant on outside sources to provide for them IE government aid, Parents. Then creating a generation of citizens that are reliant on the government to provide for them

[@retarteddwarf2182]

@@chadmanster1883 Think about this too. None of those able bodied young people are counted in the unemployment statistics because they are still "in school." The ridiculous amount of government guaranteed loan money available for attendance at these schools has only served to skyrocket the tuition cost. Without scholarships the wise choice might be to attend a lower cost Jr./Community college to get ALL of your core credits done (get as many FREE in H.S.as you can as well) so you only have 2 years of full pop 4 year tuition to tackle. Just be aware of all the financial snags if you must pursue a "higher education", there are MANY.

[@robbesafieddine]

I'm 22 going on 23, I've never gone to college. I hardly pursued any additional education after high school. But through work I was able to develop experience and eventually landed a spot at a fintech company making 50k annually. College isn't the only way to be successful.

[@TheBigExclusive]

I don't want to insult anyone who chose to go to college, but regular college is WAY too expensive for what it offers. And it's only necessary for roles in Medicine or STEM. Otherwise a person can go get cheaper certification, or even on the job training. Also, not every degree a college offers guarantees you a job. And colleges refuse to admit that.

[@evildarc0]

or lawyers

[@Quantris]

as someone who went to college outside of the US, yes Americans are getting ripped off.

[@MetalBeastShred]

@@evildarc0 Fun Fact: Law degrees used to be apprenticeships. No degree required. Then they got wealth-gated like most other professions.

[@evildarc0]

@@MetalBeastShred yeah used to be. All about accreditation now.

[@zariaeda007]

I'd rather hire someone with actual common sense than a college degree. There are so many people nowadays that can't function at a job without constantly being told what to do.

[@opetke]

Dear God, yes. Never hire Ivy Leaguers. 90% of them are absolutely worthless.

[@Me__Myself__and__I]

Most jobs that claim they require a college degree actually don't. Sometimes they will actually say "or equivalent work experience". It might be rough at first getting started without a degree, but once you have a number of years of real-world work experience no one really cares about the degree. They care about how good you are at what you do.

[@sergiusprintar5491]

@@Me__Myself__and__I the problem is getting started, especially in the software dev world. Its very difficult to get hired anywhere without a degree. And if you don't do that there's freelancing left where most dev would lack the people/social skills needed that early in life. So, the job market is pretty much equally to blame. But despite that, in all the software companies I've worked so far, I've used about 10% of what I've learned in "school". And most of it was self learned on the internet or on the job from other people.

[@Me__Myself__and__I]

@@sergiusprintar5491 Oh no, not at all. Software development is pretty easy to get a job without a degree compared to most other careers. If you don't think so - you haven't put in enough effort. Anyone can get involved with open source or even better create and publish their own open source. It takes time and effort, no one said skipping a degree is easy. But in software development there are TONS of opportunities to do things yourself or get involved with projects that you can then show to potential employers.

[@Me__Myself__and__I]

@@AcidiFy574 The majority of people involved in health care do not have college degrees. Its really only doctors and nurse practitioners that require degrees.

[@snakeyez26]

"What's difficult to measure, is how driven someone is as a human being", holy fuck I love you.

[@reubensandwich9249]

He also alluded to another important one, 'skillset'. Drive + skillset = success

[@tedmoss]

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

[@haldir108]

In psychology, there is a concept known as Conscientiousness. Individuals who are conscientious are Orderly, Dutiful, Achievement-striving, Self-disciplined, and Cautious. It strongly correlates with achievement, career advancement, and that sort of thing. Through tests of the type "how much do you agree with the following statemnt: I finish my work on time" you can get an *indication* of how Conscientious a person is.

[@powerplayer75]

its not that deep bro

[@thezeoxys9180]

I really appreciate hearing from successful folks that it's okay to not go to college. I can't do the sitting and listening. I gotta get my hands on things to work. I love learning, but hate school learning. So yeah. Thank you for this.

[@rcytray]

As someone in their senior year of engineering with writing work on the side, nothing flipped my view of the job economy more than seeing full-time work-at-home writer pay grades vastly outperforming the money I would make trying to get experience in my field of study for the first 5 years after graduation. It's almost as if college was a lie this whole time. While I should probably be focusing on getting all my thesis work done, I have been casting out nets to hopefully land a job with a decent pay. If that happens, graduation would basically be optional.

[@Chasing-the-outdoors]

To be fair, it’s a crime that they pay so poorly for engineering nowadays. They’re desperately needed. Companies need to actually respect their employees.

[@tannerlawrence3462]

What type of engineering are you studying? I'm a Chemical Engineer and my degree has really paid off for me. However, I am in agreement with much of the opinion that work ethic is more of a determining factor in success than the degree itself.

[@mh13mini]

@@tannerlawrence3462 I'm mechanical. Went to college then uni. Took a while (2 years), but finally landed an infield job with a good company and pay.

[@crp9985]

It takes some time. Entry level engineer isn't going to get really high pay, no entry level is going to, in any job. I have an engineering degree and never used it. I traveled the world on a low budget, waited tables for 14 years and with the advent of internet stock trading I went into that. End result is I'm a fairly wealthy man now but along the way I have been broke may times. Was t worth it? Could I have done what I do now without may college learning? No. .Was it worth it is a confusing one because I know guys who went off with engineering degrees who have done well but they have not lived my life, of course they never saw the down sides. LOL. I have also done well on real estate and some other businesses. I also worked with guys who were dead before 50 because of drug and alcohol abuse along with some crazy deaths by high speed whatever. You choose your life. There is the safe path and dangerous path. Going for max money when you are not proven is the dangerous path. My brother was head hunted by Tesla years ago. Turns out he would have made a killing on stock options if he had joined Tesla. Tesla almost went bankrupt 3 times in the last 10 years. When the model 3 came out Elon had no money to pay his suppliers so he talked to them and said I need to get the first run of cars out to pay you guys. If not Tesla goes BK, you get no money. If that would have happen, brother would have been unemployed and his options would be worth zero. He did not join Tesla but the only reason they were looking for him was because he was a high end production guy with 20 years of experience at GM. It takes time for an engineer to be worth big money, you need to be proven which is my point to all this. Fresh out of college should get you a decent wage but not high end. Also depends on what kind of engineer you are?

[@rcytray]

Since some of you are asking, I'm taking industrial engineering-which, by all accounts, is little more than a business course with "industrial engineering" scribbled over it with crayon. I guess the point I was trying to make was the realization that college is a huge price to pay if your circumstances don't already allow you to bleed out money for 4-5 years and only break even after another 8 years (5 if you're lucky). Now, to be clear, I have no intention of dropping out, even if I might have to repeat a semester or two. But what I am saying is that I might never find a use for my diploma when I actually graduate. It's kinda funny to think about.

[@cybertrk]

Learn to run a heavy machine, learn to weld, learn electrical, learn plumbing… learn farming. Live well. Or go to college and roll the dice.

[@AdamRud47]

I’m glad I went this route through college. I now work in the aerospace industry after years of hard work. It all pays off.

[@superadventure6297]

I went to college and before I had experience in corporate America, the degree at least qualified me at entry level. 20 years later I do not have to crawl into tight spaces, lose 50% of my body weight in sweat, operate machinery that could kill me or be yelled at constantly to "hustle". And so every time I go out onto the balcony of my condo, I look down at the guy in the garbage truck shaking the dumpster in the parking lot behind my building.. and smile. Good luck with the farming.

[@Slavolko]

@@superadventure6297 I understand your point, but farming isn't always like that. Lots of people have enjoyed moving out of the city and starting their own farms. They believe it's satisfying work that provides both mentally and physically.

[@aadiduggal1860]

@@Slavolko Most of this comment section is just so stupid, taking every point to the extreme.

[@Slavolko]

@@aadiduggal1860 That's normal. I'm guilty of it sometimes.

[@BronxProject]

I teach Math at a NYC college and I can say college these days is definitely anti-male at least from my experience.

[@aregularperson7573]

This is the case for the entire school system

[@whharri2006]

I think that now days it is very much about image, and that they cannot be labeled as sexist or the sensitive crowd comes out of the woodworks

[@smgofdvld]

yeah it makes you wonder why you see fewer and fewer men. 🤔 idk

[@bUwUmer1260]

@@whharri2006 in the effort not to be sexist, they are becoming sexist just again at men instead lol.

[@DLG24]

I have a friend with a PhD in English, specilizing in gender studies, etc at a University. HE (not she) recently told me he hates men. All I could do was smile. People really should stop this men vs women BS. Literally half the world is made up of men. Women will not get far without us. Neither will men.

[@Hilyin]

Old millenial here, I skipped college and went straight into software engineering because the colleges available didn't support people with ADHD properly. I now have no debt, own a condo and a truck outright. I feel like I made the right decision.

[@tourmelion9221]

Lit

[@Luminousplayer]

the best advice to give someone is literally "dont go to college until you are sure of what you want as a career in some way", if you only go to get any random title, it will be miserable and not worth it

[@wurm6635]

to a certain extent I think, there is some value in being educated as a whole. While it doesn't necessarily create instant profit to be educated it isn't always just about the money. Learning about history, psychology, sociology, and sciences can make someone a more well-rounded individual, but that also doesn't mean that college is the answer to that either.

[@NCPhotography]

It's surprising how often I get asked if I went to college to become a photographer. The best part of my job is it feels like a fun permanent vacation because I'm always having fun doing what I love and the pay is not bad either.

[@martharetallick204]

Another photographer here. I do have a college degree, but I never took any photography classes after high school. Instead, I have learned via videos, meetups, reading, and TONS of practice.

[@alexdw5]

Props, you must be good at what you do! 🙌

[@boimst1837]

How does one get started in photography? I've always enjoyed it as a hobby, and I feel like at some point soon I'll have the money to buy proper equipment. I'm just not sure how to start turning that into a career

[@BuilditFunky]

I wish schools explained the importance and benefit of trade schools. Welder, electricians, plumbers, cnc operators shouldn't be looked down on by the educational system. It would have saved me 25k and 2 years.

[@brodriguez11000]

Trade schools even back in my day were looked down upon. I remember the Lincoln Institute ads and the, you can be a truck driver, or diesel repair mechanic. Good money, and it can also be hard on the body as well.

[@johancloete9721]

A family friend who lives in Australia became a plumber straight after school, his father was a retired surgeon at that time. His father was a little disappointed at that time, but thought his son would come around and get a University degree and a propper job some time in the future.... Lo and behold, the father admits that his son is making more money annualy than what he made as a surgeon. So in my opinion, let the people who looked down on the blue collar workers look down on them, many of them are making big bank because there is a major shortage on blue collar specialists such as electricians, plumbers, boiler makers etc. It's important to keep a good work ethic and then it's really hard not to be successful in these fields.

[@JohnDKParker]

I definitely shoulda went to trade school to be an electrician lol. Wasted years taking bullshit classes, only maybe 5 out of the 40 or so I've taken were useful or even educational

[@Razar244]

Honestly this is a problem in most countries, here in Italy for example most of the universities (Expecially scientific and engineering ones) have received somewhat of a bad name mainly for the fact that when you have most of the professors actively going against you (No notes, bad and unclear lessons and the final exam being much more difficult than what they explained in class) people just don't bother after a year of checking things out.

[@justmemyselfandi5532]

Quote "No notes, bad and unclear lessons and the final exam being much more difficult than what they explained in class" Allow me to tell you thing or two. In colleague is super easy, you do things that are basically done, you only need to learn how. In real life, once when you go out in the world and real problems come at your table it is something that was not seen before. Then knowledge on how to actually approach to the problem, how to setup model for problem solving, how to verify your model and results is what will give put you in success line. This is what you were supposed to learn when professor is not giving you every little detail delivered on the silver plate. Most important lessons of every colleague is basically how to tackle the problems while fighting with opposing fractions, attitudes and opinions

[@Razar244]

@@justmemyselfandi5532 I'm sorry but this is just not the case expecially when it comes to things like Calculus which is specifically where my professor is just bad really, without going into details too much there is a very specific way to solve most of the problems you get assigned (Things like Stokes' theorem and Differential Equations for example) and if your professor doesn't show you at least one example of how to do it you aren't gonna do it period. I might also add that Calculus books that your teacher tells you to buy are generally kinda useless when it comes to this, i've found plenty of problems where no matter where I looked at I couldn't find anything without going to someone who had 20 years of experience with Calculus (So my professor really) as opposed to my 3 months and asking them. That's why most people have to take the final exam 5 or 6 times before passing with minimum grades at best (And that's in big part because they get lucky with something they can also do) with many of them just giving up after the first year.

[@justmemyselfandi5532]

@@Razar244 Good luck m8!

[@jamesdeegan7365]

i feel the need to point out that being an intellectual and being a academic isnt the same thing, you can be smart and not educated and you can be educated and not smart because the two are not relative, yes smart people TEND to be educated but the education isnt the thing that makes them smart, "academia is just another way of raising someones intellegencia above their own intellegencia"

[@RCButterfly]

Well said! I'm an intellectual and my intelligence often annoys the "educated" people around me simply because I don't value the stuff they waist their time on, like tiktok, and I spend my time listening to NPR programs, historical documentaries, podcasts where I am CONSTANTLY learning and absorbing valuable information like a sponge.

[@averyw.3939]

@@RCButterfly Just make sure your intelligence doesn’t inflate your ego. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned from the whole vaccine thing it’s that people, smart or dumb, don’t like being talked down to.

[@RCButterfly]

@@averyw.3939 I am pretty down to earth and I don't like drama, so I generally just avoid telling stupid people they are being stupid. Lol so no worries. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and beliefs, So as long as they aren't forcing there feelings and beliefs on me, I don't talk down to people like they are morons.

[@averyw.3939]

@@RCButterfly That’s good, I feel the same way. Your original comment just had a hint of r/iamverysmart. I assumed you probably didn’t mean it like that though.

[@sblijheid]

@@RCButterfly I don't mind telling people that they're stupid. Most people have a very narrow general knowledge, if they possess it at all, and they love to argue with me about things they don't know about. I've been quite a hermit most of my life, learning new things and soaking up information like a sponge, while most people spend their time on learning about the whereabouts of some celebrities, and what not. I can't live in a bubble, so I have to interact, but I always clash with people who have less information in their entire body than I do in the nail of my pinky finger and yet they feel like arguing with me. That's why I turned off my KZbin notifications because I'm tired of getting replies from people who cannot even comprehend a simple sentence. It's so bad these days that people have to add the word sarcasm to their comments because some genius will reply who cannot discern sarcasm. I even had a guy arguing with me about how bananas grow, while I'm born and raised in the tropics and had banana plants growing in the back yard. He has only ever lived in a cold climate!

[@JakobEslinger]

I was so miserable in college, I decided earlier this year to drop out and focus on teaching myself VR development work while working full time for a phone repair shop. I wasn't learning what I wanted to learn and have been so much happier without the workload of useless crap I had to deal with.

[@ethanc94]

College is for stem or research. Not a Twitter Marketing degree with a minor in professional feet photography.

[@BladeOfLight16]

It's not even for STEM outside of research. Engineering, maybe, but college is garbage for teaching you how to actually use technology in the real world.

[@krunkle5136]

@@BladeOfLight16 that's because most college is broken and needs to be more agile instead of relying on corrupt companies selling expensive textbooks or charging exorbitant prices.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@@krunkle5136 High prices aren't proof of corruption. Sometimes a product is legitimately expensive, particularly niche products where the demand isn't high enough to motivate streamlining the process of producing them. The proof of corruption is that they spend more time lobbying the government for money (which the government can only get through coercion) than improving their services and products to attract people giving them money willingly. If they couldn't get money by coercion, they would have no choice but to be more agile or go bankrupt in the face of competition.

[@krunkle5136]

@@BladeOfLight16 perhaps the issue should actually be the classes that mandate textbooks. Again, education shouldn't have a massive price tag. It's an obligation of society and the state to make it easy to receive education. Testing and studying are the only effort and work that should be required.

[@BladeOfLight16]

@@krunkle5136 "It's an obligation of society and the state to make it easy to receive education." That is nonsense. You are just making up your own morality in an attempt to make yourself feel like you're right. The only absolute moral obligation people have to their fellow man is to leave him the heck alone and let him make his own choices. Every other obligation is contingent on how much the receiver will actually benefit and on the limits of what we have available to us, things that no state is capable of determining at a broad enough level to put into law.

[@funky-landscaper]

My daughter decided not to go away to college this fall & just wants to work. In 6 weeks she’s moved from answering phones to being a dental assistant in her office. How’d she do it? On time every day, serious about the work & an absolute team player. Not a shabby start for 18 yrs old.

[@semmywap2916]

Your daughter sounds amazing!

[@oluwaseyijohnson3162]

I'm gonna guess two things. Firstly, the dentist she is working for has a college degree. Secondly, your daughter is making significantly less than the dentist who in fact went to college.

[@funky-landscaper]

@@oluwaseyijohnson3162 absolutely; minimum wage is $14.00 per hour when you start. He's in his early 60's & has been practicing for many years. I'm sure he makes a very good living.

[@DerekFullerWhoIsGovt]

Inheritance (before and after death) is the most frequent "success" route in the 21st century.

[@redhammer92]

@@adriaan4808 Really the only thing that doesnt is a regular old 9-5.

[@zombiestory6353]

Saved my f****** life

[@UsmanX]

I used the university as more of a learning and lifestyle experience. I used as many of the avenues available, I did a computer science degree, worked on a gaming society, did freelance in esports, and took a year out to work in the start-up scene. Nothing in the university course really pushed me to those things, those were all to do with ambitions that I wanted to fulfill, and used University time and facilities to kind of go and explore. I am a freelance software engineer, but it wasn't my degree that made me where I am, it was the people I met, the experiences I learned from. I just happened to be in the right places, with the right people all at the right time.

[@extropiantranshuman]

hey - you did college the right way! College is really only there for people who can afford it and just to learn and do better to increase skills as a hobby where you can't on your own, not for any serious job - as that's riding too much hope on false expectations.

[@UsmanX]

@@extropiantranshuman in the UK our loans are more of a post graduation tax.

[@Recovering_Californian]

You DO NOT need college to earn a really good living. Period. What you need more than anything else is determination, ambition, and a great work ethic. It's all in your head. It's a mindset. There is money to be made everywhere. YOU just need to pick up the ball and run with it.

[@Recovering_Californian]

@@AthenaAutocross Nope. You being a push over get you abused.

[@larrybrander9116]

@@AthenaAutocross I think that your right in some situations. But if you find the right people they will respect your hard work and willingness to learn. I've also worked with scum and sometimes it feels like doing the right thing will get you nowhere. Don't give up, hard work will pay off in the long run.

[@macktheripper7454]

@@AthenaAutocross work ethic allows people to build businesses and achieve real wealth

[@ZodiacEntertainment2]

@@AthenaAutocross "The leading factor in success is who you know, not what you know" is definitely true. But if somebody has convinced themselves that they truly earned everything they have like we live in some kind of meritocracy you won't be able to tell them otherwise.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@AthenaAutocross Yeah, hard work just had me working a company that didn't even have the nerve to tell me they fired me while I was supposed to be on a medical leave of abesense for my work-related injury

[@dugtrioramen]

So far, so all college classes have done for me is give me a syllabus of what I should study in my own time. Most of my professors just aren't worth paying and going to class for.

[@Kenny-Ross]

A waste of time. Information that could be learned online.

[@makatogonzo]

I prefer the rigid structure schedule though. I can never do distance learning. It just doesn't suit me.

[@Jose04537]

@@makatogonzo Too bad, even if you're not using the infrastructure you paid for, and not making any networking, the price tag is going to be the same, if not higher, since you have to pay for the equipment for said distance learning.

[@urphakeandgey6308]

Formal education in general is a big joke right now. Most people aren't graduating because of their teachers, they're graduating because self-study has become incredibly easy with the internet. In other words, teachers are getting lazy but still feel entitled because they think of themselves as the gatekeepers of knowledge. And since more people are graduating, the teachers look good on paper despite getting WORSE at their jobs. Seriously, so many teachers now just show KZbin clips and tutorials instead of teaching it themselves. I'm sorry, but wtf even is your job???

[@Makrillo]

I started Swedish university to become a teacher, 4 years of school to teach 7-year olds math. No thanks, first two months was reading some research-papers that said absolutely nothing about the subject they researched but was entirely there to justify the opinions of the writer. The research was not in any way done in a way to reduce factors surrounding the one metric they were interested in and they did nothing to highlight that fact. Then the other month was gender studies and lessons in inclusion... and it was gonna go on like that for months, so I quit and started driving trains instead. 44 weeks of education, better pay, less bullshit.

[@thamill3826]

Almost all studies that don’t come into a crash collision w the physical world are like that. It’s even a problem in data science.

[@Makrillo]

@@thamill3826 Doing studies with school children is obviously going to make it hard to limit differing factors. But I did find it mindboggling with how much referencing they did to each others work in order to score points basically, and then the report I read being as non-specific as it was. It really made me question social sciences-studies as a whole. But, I do not think College/University is a waste of time as a whole, there are certainly benefits to having an education. But yeah, personal drive and ambition gets you a long way, not necessarily the paper itself.

[@stevechance150]

College isn't for everyone. Starting your own business isn't for everyone.

[@mrtalos]

There are a lot of places in between, even if some try to make out that there aren't.

[@joe3276865536]

Trades (electrician, HVAC, plumbing) are one excellent alternative now and cannot be outsourced and realistically won't be automated and pay well.

[@peterinbrat]

We need more skilled tradesmen and technicians. You learn a skill and after two years you're making more than most BA's. We also have to stop making a degree a hurdle to get a basic middle management job that doesn't even pay $40K a year.

[@scout360pyroz]

you will likely need to raise the bar on the tradesmen then, somehow, and avoid some of the issues that come with stronger standards. more of a state to state thing, really.

[@redhammer92]

@@scout360pyroz Doesnt help trade work carries a massive stigma for being underpaid felon work in the US. Ive been laughed at and asked if im going to enjoy making 10/hr for the rest of my life doing electrical. Meanwhile ive been paid over 25/hr to sit in a Conex and unbox lights.

[@scout360pyroz]

@@redhammer92 let the idiots be idiots. got enough in the trades that gotta be filtered out as it is.

[@zachelkins1229]

@@redhammer92 NGL that sounds like a solid job, a bit mentally dull, but studying electrical work was something I remember being interested in back in high school. I of course was turned (strongly encouraged) away from that path by the school advisors I had insisting "you're too smart for that" or "that college is the path to success for you." I think I would have been happier being in electrical work.

[@waderyun.war00034]

@@scout360pyroz have you met these new college graduates that go to work at their job and know nothing they need to know about the job they studied for. I have met a few engineers that did not know what a pneumatic cylinder was when every piece of equipment we used had multiple (sometimes 20 or more).

[@ElPresidenteKhan]

I love to learn and read. I went to college for six years trying for my degree in chemical engineering. It broke my will and drive for learning. The busy work, the useless classes, the confused people. Took me six years to recover from the burn out and regain my will and drive. I’m very happy as this year I was able to pick up a chemistry book and enjoy reading again. Chemistry is my great love and I’m glad I can enjoy it again.

[@Thomas63r2]

I am a middle school teacher, and one of the classes that I have taught is "College and Careers." My students in this class are 7th graders and not really thinking about some of the life decisions that are coming in their lives, so my goal is more about helping them to recognize there are many paths that will lead to successful careers and an enjoyable life. What I tell them is that college is not actually the best choice for everyone, and that there are many good careers in the trades, or from being entrepreneurial etc. I want my students to think about what they bring to the table: academic brains, special skills or abilities, leadership, curiosity, interpersonal qualities, drive and determination - because these are the ingredients for success.

[@kalef1234]

I got a 4 year computer engineering degree 2 years ago, but am low key jealous of those really driven people who get there without shelling out 60+ thousand dollars. college is too expensive, it's just like weddings nowadays, a way to make money.

[@-SP.]

@Shimmy Shai That degree is what get's you a job. That $60k is basically like a fee you are paying to get a job

[@haywoodjblome4768]

@@-SP. Exactly, the amount of people who misunderstand this is baffling. No matter how skillful you are employers care about the degree

[@inamv873]

i know a guy who got a masters in some field only to end up being in my trade. He is the most skilled worker ive met and he wasted 6 years and 6 figures on that degree, and now he makes just as much money as he would have in that field. Im glad i saw the writing on the wall 4 months in rather than 6 years

[@orbatos]

Have you considered they simply did not want to work in that profession after learning about it in detail? Not everything is about money, and I know a lot of people like that. If so, good on them for opting out of a lifestyle they did not want.

[@OneStepForwardOneStepForward]

@@orbatosYou'd think they'd learn about it in detail, before they went and received a 6 year education and went 6 figures into debt. I did internships and shadowing in high school so this exact scenario didn't happen to me, time is very precious.

[@davidapacjr1989]

“Everybody who goes to college isn’t driven” so effing true. If anything, I would say a lot of people who go to college do so because it gives them a false sense of merit. Even though they come out of college with debt and haven’t paid it off..

[@coolerking7427]

If I was young again. I would just go to junior college or trade schools.

[@ironhead2008]

You and me both bro...

[@ClayMastah344]

You can still do trade school

[@dirtysilver2841]

College didn't teach me how to live a life outside college. It was a waste of time for myself to make my life a success. I make just under 6 figures, have my own house, know how to fix everything I own. Gardening has taught me more about successful reward than college ever gave me.

[@Fritzanomus62988]

Most of college is a waste unless your going after the big careers, doctor, lawyer, engineering. Apparently it's worth being in debt for 10-20 years worth of debt just to have a job that ends up paying peanuts.

[@crp9985]

Those careers require a college degree and the numbers of people in those degree programs has not gone up in decades. Those are skill based hard programs.

[@matthewbeasley7765]

@@crp9985 Not only have the number getting STEM degrees not gone up, the number of STEM graduates have decreased over time.

[@MrKillswitch88]

Those big careers have turn over and are toxic as fuck these days, in engineering people often get fucked over hard having to carry skilless diversity hires coupled with toxic managment. Doctors are often pretty fucked despite the income the student loans can easily top 100k or more that take forever to pay off unless cheeps out when the rest trap themselves with mortgages. Law is toxic and many end up suffering terrible burnout and the system is at best an open sewer, those child porn cases burn some out of these jobs in little as four years.

[@vitos7483]

@@MrKillswitch88 Every career field is toxic, so doesn't make a difference.

[@gragorin]

@@crp9985 I agree, any of the medical fields should be included as the pay vastly exceeds the college expense. I spent about $35K on my degree and was making twice that per year as soon as a I graduated and well over that now.

[@holycrapitsjake_]

so sad how today's society is still able to convince kids that the "college experience" is reason enough to tack on thousands in debt for a piece of paper. even with all the studies and news articles you can find about how the job market is oversaturated with useless degrees, young adults still eagerly follow each other off that cliff.

[@alekorgruene313]

Education doesn’t replace skill and drive. People who develop their abilities and make themselves critical to a company or community get paid well. You can learn in many ways, degrees don’t make a man.

[@cjlooklin1914]

I think this was true at some point, and it may even still be true a certain extent in certain places, but I don't think it holds up in corporate America anymore. I'm astounded how poorly my industry treats it's technicians. Highly skilled individuals without degrees, whom we would be FUCKED without, give the bare minimum pittance to keep them coming back, but never any real opportunities. You don't need a degree to have a good job and good life, but I wouldn't advise any young man to enter a industry where they need to compete against college graduates, because they simply won't ever be given a chance. Maybe exceptions will be made for 1 in a million geniuses. But if you're a genius, why not just go to college and make your life easier?

[@carbonstar9091]

@@cjlooklin1914 I don't know what world you live in but this does not match up to my experiences. There is limitless demand for skilled workers even if our society wrongly attaches a stigma to not having a degree. Most people just want an easy life and don't actually want to work. If you want to work the opportunities are there. And they pay enough to live a very good life compared to the vast majority of humanity.

[@johnyjoe2k492]

@@cjlooklin1914 supply and demand... There's more people than jobs... End point.

[@johnyjoe2k492]

@@carbonstar9091 no there isn't..

[@frankthetank6558]

Not corporate jobs…. If I don’t like the way it is they’ll bring in 3people who are under qualified and want less pay from a completely different economic zone…..then they wring them out until they can’t sustain and do it alllll over again….. don’t get me started on the J-1s and illegal workers shaving that number even lower!!! Ps. Fuck vail

[@awarepenguin3376]

i did the whole school thing and now i'm stuck in extremely high COL areas in order to find employment. It is sobering to see buddies in low COL areas buying reasonably priced homes.

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

That's a good point missed by these very misleading studies that claim college graduates earn somesuch more than non-graduates: job availability. If you're forced into somewhere like NYC or San Francisco, are you really "earning" more? Years ago I had a adjunct professor in a small area college who moved from NYC. I think he said his pay was like a third of what it was and his commute was something like 20-30 miles but he had more money left over at the end of the week and it didn't take him any longer to get to work.

[@youtubesucks8024]

Personally, college was a colossal waste of time and money for me. Master’s degree taught me how to think, and I was able to apply those skills towards my current career. Was it worth the price? I’m leaning towards ‘no.’

[@DLG24]

I literally said the same thing just now😄

[@opetke]

Went back to school for my MBA after 15 years of working. Massive waste of money. If your career (snicker) path requires letters after your name, and it isn't a hard science, go into business for yourself. Its a struggle, but well worth the rewards.

[@danieldorn2927]

It wasnt the Masters degree that taught you this, you already had those skills. The degree just tells employers that you are able to adapt to your environment, and in that case, push through to earn a degree. I have a degree too, but I already had the skills to learn and understand the stuff. The degree is just for optics.

[@justins7711]

@@danieldorn2927 Good point. A degree is not proof of knowledge, but evidence of the ability to ascertain knowledge and persist through a rigorous and demanding schedule.

[@goldfishi5776]

Associate, Bachelor, Master of xyz is a gate to entry. Use BLS data to determine if your field is a bottleneck. You may have zero chance at corporate work if you’re not a 4.0 student.

[@MaximusAutismus]

You get: All my money I get: A fancy paper and crippling amount of debt. Yeah no thanks.

[@macktheripper7454]

With zero job prospects

[@ajko000]

I went to college in '16 because I thought I needed to and had no idea where to go. I dropped out after about 2 months. I spent the next 3yrs in crappy food service jobs. After those 3yrs, I went down to my local library inquiring about getting certs to break into IT. I took the classes, got a paid internship, got hired, got 2 more certs for FREE (I worked at the school I studied at), and left that job after topping out. I tripled my earnings over the span of the next 2yrs. Most people as well as myself consider IT certs to be more like a trade school / technical school situation. It's still technically "school" but it's not quite the same as college. There's no hopping around to different profs, there's no useless learning/classes that have nothing to do with what you're studying, there's (usually) actual effort put in by the institution and the faculty to create a productive learning environment. They're also a lot cheaper in the long run, and have a MUCH better price to performance ratio when you break into the field you're in. I was feeling lost about a year ago and decided to go back to college for computer science. I stuck it out, I really did - for about a year before I got fed up with the lazy and wasteful curriculum. I learn more actually doing my job or researching things for my job than I ever have/will in school. Experiential learning, like banging your head against something, paired with proper documentation and some level of google-fu really is the best IMO. You can learn almost anything with the internet these days, or just by working in the field. Of course this doesn't apply to every job, and for hard-STEM fields like research or medicine you do "need" college. But, I'd argue that's because they hold a sort of monopoly on accreditation and academia.

[@murkywaters5502]

What certs did you get and in what order?

[@tourmelion9221]

I agree You can do almost anything on the internet And find so many useful tips to optimise it

[@seabeebillm]

Spent a semester in college and hated it…been in the trades every since (with a 6 year break for a military adventure)…did 2 different apprenticeship programs that my employers paid for…I’m a journeyman electrician and an HVAC contractor…I’ve done just fine without a degree…

[@opetke]

Well done and thank you for your service!

[@spicemasterii6775]

For certain fields, you have to go to college. Example: Engineering. Medicine.

[@ashishpatel350]

That's only because those fields are heavily regulated

[@jutau]

STEM fields all require it. And unfortunately US isn't producing enough of those and is falling in competitiveness.

[@CJ-fh5xq]

Tech too!

[@BVasquezp]

You could start with a technical career on the same field, see if you like it, then enter college if you think it's worth it.

[@grey5626]

@@ashishpatel350 Would you want to undergo surgery from someone in an environment which was not regulated? Regulations are typically only put into place after countless suffering and lawsuits have compelled more ethical and higher standards.

[@rustyshackleford6799]

I went into a trade and make 70 an hour. I didn’t have to go into student loan debt.

[@Bynming]

My younger brother did the same. I make $55/hour as a data analyst in an air conditioned office with 25 paid vacation days and 15 paid sick days a year. My brother made $60/hour pouring concrete in commercial buildings. He wasn't allowed days off, was forced to load and unload the work truck without payment every day, worked almost every Saturday for his usual wages, and now his back and his knees are so fucked he can't really work anymore, and his lungs are messed up from all the garbage he inhaled over the years. He's 29.

[@PHILLYFREEDOM2011]

Beartaria!

[@macktheripper7454]

@@Bynming that’s horrendous but it’s not the norm with trade jobs

[@annonymsurfer3189]

@@Bynming yeah, but you failed to mention your 25 mates that you went to college with that are working at starbucks and mcdonalds that make $15/hour and only do so because it's minimum wage

[@Bynming]

@@annonymsurfer3189 the majority of the people I went to uni with turned out decently. Those who didn't were probably not fit for trades either anyway. Anyway similarly you fail to mention all the people who went into trades and figured out it was too hard for them and took a toll on their body. Although my brother's case is unfortunately extreme, lots of jobs in the trades (not all, I know) are difficult and have poor conditions. Everyone I know in construction hate their job. They make good money though.

[@NeoNoggie]

I went to college and got a masters degree and things have worked out well. I was able to graduate debt free by living with my grandparents til I was 25 (thank you to them both for lending me a hand!) and working during summers; not the greatest way to meet chicks, but it got me through my degrees. My nephew is on the other end of things; he doesnt want to go to college and my family kept pushing him. I was the only one who was like "You know what, if you dont want to go, you shouldn't." and sure, he isnt making big bucks right now, but he's doing just fine living on his own and never asks for money. He's responsible, and I respect that about him.

[@jonnycoolg]

Folks need to look at community college, trade schools, and continuing adult education more seriously. 4 year university is not always the answer.

[@lucywynn4048]

Exactly!

[@comicsans1689]

This, I went to a community college, got my degree, and got a job within half a year of graduating within my field by networking with professionals. I've saved up enough money from a year of my job to pay off my student loan entirely. 4 year university is a scam.

[@jackx341]

@@comicsans1689 how much do you make now?

[@comicsans1689]

@@jackx341 I don't want to get too specific, but it's between 30 and 40K a year. I could be making much more working the same job somewhere else, but my job has a lot of nice benefits that add up, and some that you can't put a price on like an easy commute. I like what I do, and considering I got the job practically straight out of school with only an associate's degree, I'm happy with it. I also live (and work) in a rural area, so the lower pay isn't a deal breaker because the cost of living is low. All my needs are met, and I'm still able to save a good chunk of money.

[@jackx341]

@@comicsans1689 nice nice

[@oliviastratton2169]

I love how "$20 per hour delivery job" and "$15.50 per hour warehouse job" are their examples of drop-outs failing. I know lots of college grads making $15 per hour at a coffee shop. I'm a college grad making $20 per hour. Also, working a blue collar job for a couple years in your late teens/early 20s does not mean you're stuck there for life. Better to take some time and figure out what your really want to do without any student loan debt hanging over your head, than to get trapped in a job you hate because you majored in something dumb and are stuck paying it off for a decade or two.

[@InnuendoXP]

Exactly. I find the perspective of the author to be quite sneering. Blue collar work is incredibly valuable to society, is necessary, and if you don't know what you want to do, then it's far better to be doing something & getting a start in life, than sinking tens of thousands of dollars into debt for the sake of something you've never done & only vaguely like the abstract idea of doing.

[@SuperSmashDolls]

"Staying up until 2AM banging your head against something" sounds like most actual university research IMO. Definitely in the "hard" sciences, probably also applies to soft sciences too.

[@asharsyed1370]

As an economics student it applies to my social science at least

[@raul0ca]

I used the gym to take showers and kept my toothbrush and toothpaste in my bookbag

[@angelgjr1999]

Yup. College is so damn time consuming. I’ve stayed up until midnight just doing homework before,

[@BlueisNotaWarmColour]

Soft sciences, AKA "parrot your peers or perish."

[@BlueisNotaWarmColour]

@@asharsyed1370 please tell me your economics classes aren't all math

[@anewagora]

Through all successes, hardships and failures I've had, dropping out of high school was still one of my best decisions. What I did not predict, was all the corruption and incompetent, dysfunctional people I would encounter in my work that very clearly we're handicapped by school, college simply enhancing these problems. The most intense example of this was in my work as a youth mentor focusing on empowerment and healing trauma. I lived through the brutal transformation of escaping extreme sheltering and healing on my own from trauma and severe health issues. I went through the brutality of being a young, weak person that was not at all adapted to the real world, because the world I grew up in was manufactured and abusive. And I got through that. I transformed radically. Then I counseled young people in my position. But I began to work with people who went to college instead, and their experiences literally made them ignorant to how empowerment and healing works. Not to mention the extreme ideology that encourages victimhood and treats empowerment as a threat.

[@peterpandit8625]

Honestly I haven't found my passion so I could never find something that I am driven for. I wish our education system would try to help children find something that they are driven for.