Assisted braking devices, should we all be belaying with them?

[@markpacman4278]

Thank you for sharing your expertise so generously! The insights and tips you provide are always spot on and incredibly helpful. Your channel is one of my go-to resources👍

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@markpacman4278 very kind 👊

[@tacul9333]

I use the CT Alpine Up for pretty much all my climbing these days. Assisted braking, and the ability to go hands free on a rappel if I need to use both hands for unsnarling knots, etc. Works great in guide mode too.

[@vbregier]

« should we all go by a giga jul or something similar, and have assisted only ? » Yes, I think we should. That’s what I’ve done (giga jul, actually thanks to your reviews of this device, and now I love this device), and now what I recommend to others. The giga jul is pretty expensive compared to a reverso, but if people complain about the price, most often they never climb on half ropes, so they can by a less pricey assisted device. I don’t see any good reason to keep using non-assisted device, apart from not wanting to change habit.

[@sam.n.sansalone]

I’m definitely changing/refining my thinking on this in recent years. Bottom line: I really do want to be protected by not just a good belayer, but _redundantly_ also by at least auto-assisted-braking, to help account for contingency of belayer-accident/inattention-which can and does happen. Life and keeping a healthy, unbroken body are worth so very much more than the puny bit of extra carrying-weight of modern assisted-braking devices, or their extra purchase-cost, or the new-learning-curve effort, or bit of additional belayer pulling-tension against possible extra bits of rope-drag that might be introduced… or any other, comparatively minor ‘inconveniences.’ I’ll offer further details along this line of reasoning with more points in my additional comment, below.… (1 of 2)

[@matthewlloyd2055]

started using a gigajul a few years ago for trad and its awesome. with a bit of practice it makes for a faster, safer double rope belay too, but that difference is marginal. interestingly the shop i bought it.. which shall remain nameless... wanted to make sure i wasn't using it for trad as 'those assisted devices can be dangerous in terms of forces on the gear'. Having checked the data on this myself i am unconvinced that this is a good reason, but we are a bit behind the times here in the UK, and i hope there aren't any others who have been put off making a great choice because of this!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Petzl have some good data on this using a GriGri. My takeaway is that assisted devices are fine for the vast majority of trad. If you’re doing something with super marginal gear then I might consider non assisted. That said, the addition of a soft catch could negate that anyway depending on the situation.

[@matthewlloyd2055]

@@JBMountainSkills very much my take too. so good to know!

[@gregorgombac5302]

​@@JBMountainSkills I get what you are saying for single-pitch climbing, the belayer can always move and give a soft catch. For multi-pitch though I totally think the opposite, the assisted device will introduce a lot more force on the gear once the belayer is tied to the anchor!!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah that's why I say depending on the situation. FF1 on a GriGri 2, Volta 9.2mm = 6kn impact force. 6kn = pretty irrelevant on a decent nut for example, a definite consideration on a not so trustable RP for example. There is of course nearly always movement from the belayer even on multipitch.

[@christophercraig3907]

I'll admit I still carry a pivot on multipitch a fair bit, but even if we ignore that we're talking about really special cases, I'm not sure that's a reason to go back to a non-assisted device. ENSA makes some pretty convincing arguments that if you're on a hanging belay and really need to reduce force on the gear you should be using a munter (in a fixed-point lead belay setup)

[@alexis4512]

A potential analogy for assisted devices would be the collision avoidance tech in some cars that hit the breaks to avoid rear ending the car in front - not fool proof, and ideally you don’t rely on it to stop a crash (drop) but there if you need it.

[@nigelmtb]

Brakes

[@petefinklaire1057]

I haven't used a passive belay device for 15 years! I've tried most of the assisted devices for trad, which is mainly what I climb, and I have settled on the CT Alpine Up, as the best all round assisted device.

[@grantwatson927]

I'll second this. I got mine late last ice climbing season, and have been very pleased with it. Like anything, there are compromises (bulky to rack, a bit fussy to deploy, and tricky to use for smooth lowering, especially with a light climber), but it's very versatile (including for 2-strand use) and gives a high degree of peace of mind.

[@petefinklaire1057]

@@grantwatson927 Yes there is a slight penalty in weight (50g) and baulk, but worth it. I do a lot of abseiling into sea cliffs and descending from multi pitch routes, and the Alpine Up is very positive and safe for abseiling. All the Joule devices slip / creep so you have to use a prussik with them. The other advantage of the CT AU, is it's great in guide mode, and easy to lower a second without all the fathing of the others.

[@DonnyProductions]

I think it will become the norm in 5-10 years. The same way we don't generally use hip belays / figure 8 devices (though of course there are occasions when these methods are still used with good reason).

[@stevehardy331]

I think the gigajul is good for uk half ropes, hard to use with fatter single though. Pls can you link your video, or make one, where you show lead belaying with a giga jul? I've seen your review of them a couple years back but not much useful real life footage of lead belaying using them. Thx

[@vbregier]

I use the giga jul with fat single ropes too. Yes it’s a bit grabby, but I never found it harder to use. The only thing is you don’t want your rope on the ground meters away, or the extra drag this causes makes it really hard to give slack. But if you’re keeping your rope meters away, you should reconsider your technique anyways…

[@szabolcskiraly6323]

Hallo JB, pretty good content again, small off topic: you said you use a Rig to project/teach. What kind of a rope do you use with? Thanx for your input. Regards, mate 😊

[@kevinaldrich5766]

We used 7.7 half ropes with the micro jul. Belaying lead with the geometric assisting break with the Micro Jul was pretty smooth except if you encounter a kink in the rope. Rappel on the micro jul was best when fully weighted (I’m 160lbs). I had to lift it up to disengage the break and it gave me a few jerks. Maybe a rounded and smaller carabiner will work best next time.

[@paulmorrey4298]

Thanks

[@Martin-q2x8d]

Blocking devices are not always saver. If the protection points are bomber and there is little friction in the system, I prefer blocking devices. With weak protection points (e.g. sandstone) it’s important, to keep the forces low, which with blocking devices isn’t always the case

I climb with my son, I went the giga. He runs a bd atc and honestly I think the giga is just a smooth. I always use it in assisted. But clipped directly to the belay loop.

[@robertparr3005]

I'm very pro assisted devices and use a pilot when indoor climbing and a gigajul for trad. However, I do find the gigajul difficult to abseil on and not very smooth. I was thinking about getting a reverso for some situations such as a planned winter trip to Scotland as its just more simple and maybe a smoother abseil. I do wish more of my fellow club climbers would use assisted breaking devices though as for most occasions it just makes more sense for safety.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Abseiling with the GigaJul in non assisted? I find it pretty good for abseiling on a variety of ropes from 8mm - 9.8mm in both assisted and non assisted.

[@stephenbentley6747]

Yeah we should. The slight issue is that for double ropes there aren't so many options and they are all a bit less smooth as you and others have pointed out. Some development by manufacturers would be good but we should all move in this direction. There might be some exceptions for special situations like where the gear is super sketchy and you want rope to slip through the device but the standard ought to be an assisted breaking device.

[@skilllessbeast7416]

I realy missed a mention of belay from the anchor. It can be very useful in a lot of situations, but you should really use a tube device. Therefore I always carry my Megajul and a tube style device, when climbing multipitch.

[@vbregier]

You should really try the giga-jul, it does exactly what you need : can be used as assisted device, or tube style for guiding mode anchor belay or more comfortable abseil.

[@Me1234utube]

My partner and I have switched to the mega jul, promted by the gym now preferring an assisted device. I find it much more difficult for managing half ropes but appreciate the extra safety. We climb outside at quiet areas and wonder what will happen to a leader locked of mid climb and an unresponsive belayer.

[@shokodeny]

How about on a multipitch when belaying the leader? Can you provide a soft catch with an assisted braking device? (I have no experience, just asking)

[@vbregier]

If you’re on a ledge, yes you can (jump upwards when the rope gets tension). If you’re hanging in your harness, not so much. Maybe with a thinner rope…

[@jamesbearpark3794]

I have a gigajul and I often use both assisted and unassisted depending on how much my partner is likely to be falling. Easy trad I generally prefer manual because it's smoother but for sport where there's lots of sitting on the ropes and sudden falls I like the assistance as I don't have to hold the rope as tightly when the climber is sitting on it. To me the auto braking is just a nice back up but never rely on it

[@JohanMood]

Idk the mega jul and the like are a pita for any stuff that isn't straight up belaying, at least the Pivot got easy lowering but you still need to deal with prusiks and extension when abseiling and what not. If there was a grigri for double ropes I would've bought it a long time ago.

[@EllisGoodchild1]

Learning on a tube style device and being able to use it compentently teaches a solid foundation and good belaying. Knowing you can't fuck up helps you to not fuck up. Assisted devices are a good way to pick up bad habits and get complacent. I have nothing against assisted devices but personally I would not let some one belay me on an assisted device who could not belay me on a non assisted device.

[@michelemaio8399]

Completely agree

[@EricForney-uz4iz]

You hit it Spot On. 👍 How about just using good, solid fundamentals and paying attention to your climbing partner.

[@JohanMood]

I don't really disagree but I rather teach someone who never belayed before on a grigri/cam style device rather than trusting them to hold the brake hand when it really matters - assisted or not. And to be really honest they're no longer similar techniques at all so nothing really carry over from a tube style device, except to like the neox

[@benoitcerrina]

I completely agree and actually made almost the same comment before reading yours.

[@benoitcerrina]

@@JohanMoodas long as it is top rope belaying it is the same technique. By the time climbers start to lead and lead belay normally they know to hold the brake end of the rope

[@johnliungman1333]

I think it is a brilliant concept, but perhaps not fully mature when it comes to a single device that handles two ropes, guide mode, lead mode and abseiling. I keep trying new designs and they usually always have some drawback. However, the argument that “learning on a tube device teaches good habits” is a bit deceptive. It’s like arguing that beginners should build single piece anchors, because then they stop depending on backup pieces and learn to place proper gear. Way safer, right? (Not.) Redundancy is a fundamental part of climbing safety, and a system that depends fully on perfect handling in a sudden high-force situation is inately insecure. Obviously, these devices require proper training just like any other piece of gear (you can build a crappy 5-piece anchor too…)

[@Friendfox]

gigajul's are great, i can't imagine buying an old-school ATC/reverso over it.

[@thomasanderson1882]

If possible, I prefer Assisted devices. For rapping purposes and double ropes, manual is useful. Ideally all climbers should be competent with both. However, assisted devices should be used if possible, IMHO. I often carry both tube and assisted on multiple pitch climbs

[@NathanTweed]

I’m a big fan of assisted devices, and have used them exclusively when sport climbing. You do often see it written (and hear it said) that an assisted device will put more force on trad gear, so shouldn’t be used. Personally I’ve never really bought that argument, both bodies and the rope in the system seem to me to provided a far bigger effect than even the best performed (and maybe risky?) tube slide. Finally, it seems in other countries grigris are used on single rope trad, and then I re watched the Dave MacLeod requiem video the other day, and I’m sure there is a brief flash of a grigri being used the belay him 10s of feet above a micro wire!

[@JBMountainSkills]

It is factual that assisted devices increase the impact force, whether this matters is another matter though. FF1 on a GriGri 2, Volta 9.2mm = 6kn impact force. 6kn = pretty irrelevant on a decent nut for example, a definite consideration on a not so trustable RP for example. There is of course nearly always movement from the belayer even on multipitch.

[@IAmMaarten]

Certainly for gym climbing and single pitch sport climbing I really don't see any reason to not use an assisted device. They hardly cost more, are more comfortable if the climber spends some time hanging in the rope, and they're much, much safer. Sure, you don't plan to let go of the breaking rope, but mistakes and other things can happen. That being said, I do think that for people learning to belay (ideally under supervision / with a backup) it's useful to learn first on a tube-style device to get the right habits straight away.

[@mudskipper3650]

I've used both over several years, and prefer using an assisted braking device now due to the added safety, and I never want to drop someone

[@doughobbs7706]

There is no answer tht fits, on the one side you have the "you should be able to use any device having assisted maked you lazy/bad habits" and on the other you have "why not, it makes things safer" both are 100% valid. I guess it boils down to the clibing partners to agree between them what they are comfortable on?

[@doughobbs7706]

Mamut Smart Alpine for the win for me BTW!

[@tommasozucchini6970]

I m recently starting to do more multi pitch route and here in Italy we use half ropes for that and a really don't trust my self whit a tube device so I think we shoud all use assisted breaking devices don't know why manufacturers aren't making more assisted devices for Doble ropes

[@DustyRobertson]

Honestly I think it just comes down to use case. Do I teach people how to use a gri gri on single pitch sport? Yes I do. Do I teach then proper belay technique with an ATC first? Absolutely. For trad, assissted/non assissted doesn't really matter to me as i dont climb hard enough for it to matter. As long as its a tube with guide mode I dont really care. Here in Aus we use single ropes but I dont often see trad climbers using non tube devices unless they've set up a top rop or they're seconding

[@johnsullivan873]

Good luck using an ATC when your leader is hangdogging while working a route

[@foobar9220]

I think, as always in life, it really depends. For sport climbing, being belayed with a tube style device is a big no-go for me. It simply adds risk in a scenario with high fall probability when it does not need to be there. On the downside that forces the belayer to do a body-dynamic belay, unless they use a Revo. But that is not a big deal. For alpine climbing and most multi-pitches, a locking device really has plenty of downsides and lacks the dynamic abilities when one is fixed to the belay. So there is no way around a manual device. I have not done that much single pitch trad, but with reasonable gear, I would go for a locking device. Same for ice climbing. Big fan of double ropes So in a nutshell: Sport climbing -> Revo. There is nothing better than a dynamic device with the safety of an assisted device Everything else -> Gigajul. Perfect versatility

[@jerthebear27]

I don’t think there’s any reason for every single climber to learn a tube device. Assisted braking devices are here and they aren’t going anywhere, and the majority of gym climbers don’t even climb outside, let alone do trad/multipitch. The biggest cause of accidents is human error, which the gri gri greatly reduces. Just my opinion.

[@guyleckenby7567]

I would agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that all the people I know who've been dropped inside have been dropped whilst lowering on a gri gri...

[@jerthebear27]

⁠@@guyleckenby7567that’s a fair point, it’s been my experience as well. Although I think that’s typically only true of brand new users of a gri gri whereas someone of any experience level can make a mistake on an ATC, just requires a moment of getting distracted, which we’re all susceptible to.

[@JBMountainSkills]

People have been dropped on every belay device out there, even auto belays. Humans are the weak link.

[@jerthebear27]

Using the car crash analogy. Humans are the weak link and will make mistakes guaranteed. Seat belts and assisted braking reduce the risk of severe consequences when that inevitable human error occurs.

[@benoitcerrina]

I feel much safer belayed by someone who learned on a tube before moving to Grigio or other ABD those are great but I like my belayer to know how to belay.

[@PetegNZ]

My main worries, having been climbing a bit in the last few years with a younger crew, are twofold: Firstly they often don't know the parameters of what gear it is appropriate to use in what situation; I've gotten to the top of a pitch and found I'm being belayed with a guide mode belay device off the belayer's belay loop (having given them the device and told them to ignore the guide mode part and 'just belay normally'). And relatedly had climbers not know that you can just belay normally from above, that a guide mode device isn't necessary. Secondly I've observed that the younger crew seem to have is that climbing is safe, as their path has been through indoor climbing walls etc and they don't have the full picture to look at a scenario and make a good risk assessment. I've cleaned the anchors on a route that multiple people had been top roping on, for example, and found that one of the two quickdraws had been not properly clipped through the chains - the gate on the upper biner was hung up on a chain link. Obviously the other draw was the one that was doing all the work as people were sessioning the route - and maybe in a bigger fall event the other draw may have been weighted and closed itself? But the general 'clip and it's good' without standing back and assessing if everything was as it should be is obviously a concern. This is a bit of a tangent I guess to the question this video poses but I do think just letting people who are new to the sport go straight into assisted braking devices potentially risks missing out on a lot of the bigger picture around good belay practices.

[@iain_nakada]

Great video. I think the conversation gets a bit easier when restricted to sport and indoor climbing - there's very little disadvantage to using a brake assist device and a marked increase in safety - it's pretty much a no brainer at this point. I wouldn't demand a climbing partner uses one, but I'd give them a nudge and be happier if they did. It's why I changed. On trad, I do still use a reverso. Haven't tried the gigajul and haven't climbed with someone who owns one to have a go. I'd certainly try it, but one reason it seems less clear cut is there are loads of safety concerns when tradding - the gear, the rock, relative positions of climber and belayer, how much space on the belay etc. Perhaps the wrong way to look at it, but it's now one thing of many and while there are improvements to be made with the rest, it doesn't seem as high a priority I guess. Also as other people said, can give soft catches in confined space with a non-locking device. Not sure how critical that point is though.

[@andystairmand9023]

Canoeing without a lifejacket could be a good analogy

[@jamesclark6257]

Doesn't assisted breaking devices put more force on your gear, meaning marginal placements are more likely to fail. It's much easier to let some slippage happen with a normal atc and give a softer catch for the climber, but more importantly, put less force on the gear.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Petzl have some good data on this using a GriGri. My takeaway is that assisted devices are fine for the vast majority of trad. If you’re doing something with super marginal gear then I might consider non assisted. That said, the addition of a soft catch could negate that anyway depending on the situation.

[@largeformatlandscape]

The way people catch on trad (generalising) is a panic hard lock off which is probably he same as an ABD

[@sam.n.sansalone]

@@largeformatlandscape- a valid general point. 🙌

[@vbregier]

Have you actually practiced letting slippage with a non-assisted tube ? If not, I am betting you would do a hard catch anyways. And you can practice soft catch with an assisted device too ( as long as you have ground under your feet − if you belay hanging in your harness, as happens sometimes, I don’t know of a way to do a soft catch)

[@largeformatlandscape]

@@vbregier Hard is Easy and How Not 2 have both shown that trying to soft catch by letting the rope run is not really possible/ineffective (although is doable with a munter/italian). A soft catch through jumping is way more effective. This also relies on very minimal rope drag so may not work as well with trad.

[@StevenPahl-k4x]

It's called progress, we don't climb on ropes that are similar to the ones used 50 years ago, or place gear from the same era, they have been vastly improved, so why wouldn't we do the same for our belay devices. As for analogies, we don't teach 17 year old teenagers to drive in cars with no ABS, no traction control or power steering etc, we teach them in modern cars with all of the safety gear - so why wouldn't we do the same for belaying?

[@sam.n.sansalone]

Right, and everyone can (and should) _still_ learn _both_ basic types of belay devices (and both types of driving-braking systems.)

[@mcapsey]

My analogy was going to be body belays (yes, I'm old enough to have been taught these) and new fangled sticht plates. Assisted devices are another step onward. Although I usually advocate for being able to use the old tech as well. The more tools you have... etc