What's Going Wrong with SUV & Pickup Sales? - AAH 689

TOPIC:
Charlie Chesbrough is the Senior Economist with Cox Automotive and he has some surprising insights into the way the American car market is going. Compact cars and CUVs are pulling the market up, while big SUVs and pickups are trying to pull it down. Is this just a one-time blip or are we seeing fundamental changes in the market?
PANEL:
Charlie Chesbrough, Cox Automotive
Mike Colias, The Wall Street Journal
Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net
John McElroy, Autoline.tv
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WEBSITE: www.autoline.tv

[@boomerbits2297]

I agree that the industry does a poor job touting evs. However to answer the question, I drive a Bolt. It costs me about $10 a month after my utility rebate for charging late at night. Rolling costs are less than 4 cents a mile. I have dcfc my Bolt maybe 12 or so times in 2 years. So as a retiree on a fixed income the Bolt is a really cost effective mode of transportation i will never buy another ICE vehicle. Had a Volt before the Bolt. Great car. gM screwed up discontinuing them

[@anydaynow01]

Yep, makes me wonder if they are going to resurrect the Voltec system with Ultium batteries. With all the success Toyota is having with their Primes and the Volt had near identical numbers almost a decade ago they would be right there with them. I'm looking at an XC60 recharge to replace my Volt in about a year or so. I hit a critter with the Volt and it took consulting GM directly for a nationwide search for weeks to find replacement under body panels, spooked me a bit that the parts supply is getting really thin for them.

[@swoleavocado]

I also drive bolts. Remember to rotate your tires. I rotate at 3,500. I had the tires last only 24,100 miles. The tires come with a warranty for 65k tread wear warranty from Michelin. I had replacements covered for 62% off retail. This is good to remember if you don't get 65k miles out of your tires.

[@rp9674]

​@@swoleavocadogood tip, thanks

[@jeffg4570]

But did GM make any money on the Volt / Bolt?

[@boomerbits2297]

@@jeffg4570 probably not but until these companies can scale up, they dont expect to make money. Look at Tesla. It took them close to 10:years to become profitable. While GM has been around a long time, building an ev is basically like being a startup

[@zeitgeist888]

Not a greenie at all but I like EVs for the acceleration, smoothness, less complexity, quietness, charging at home, no smell or fumes and low centered Cg add in more interior space with flat floors and less heat or concern about overheating or maintenance and they make a lot of sense.

[@donswier]

Many car guys are like you. We appreciate the "right tool" for the job. I hear far more non-car people fixated on car-as-a-statement such as "I could never be seen in a minivan" or "I'm not an EV sorta person". What do those kind of comments even mean??? ☺️

[@cathyk9197]

EV's are great for every reason you mention plus no smelly oil stains on the garage floor.

[@hoffinger]

Anyone who lives on this planet had better be a greenie. If you like water, food, clean air and temperatures compatible with life as we know it.

[@ethanwelner1230]

Maybe the market for truck owners who want hundred thousand dollar hunks of crap with empty beds finally peaked. Is the truck fad finally over? Like 80% of truck owners don't actually need a truck in any real way and just buy them as a fashion object.

[@taniabanes4707]

A fad? Are you kidding? The three best selling vehicles in this country are trucks and it’s not something new, the F-150 is the No. 1 for 50 years, so I would say it’s a bit more than a ‘fad’, it’s a way of life, and since when people only buy the car they ‘need’? It seems to me EV drivers don’t really need cars with great accelerations, except to show off

[@andrewsaint6581]

​@@taniabanes4707good point. A way of life. Lifestyle. Are younger drivers wanting big old petrol lumps or clean, efficient, quiet, economical, comfy Ev's. John and sandy Munro reckon it will be youngsters pushing EV. I'm 62 and do 2800 imperial miles a month. ~4p (5c) a mile EV. Easy on the old Motörhead and heavy truck affected ears.

[@omelborpon3159]

If you are a pickup truck driver who seldom uses the vehicle to tow, then EV pickups would be the way to go. The Platinum Edition of the Ford F150 Lightning is large, quiet, comfortable, and has plenty of range. And with the large battery in the Lightning, it is a great luxury road-tripper.

[@nothanks960]

6.00 gas is helping.

[@taniabanes4707]

@@andrewsaint6581 Depends on the young, of course some who watched a bit too much of the Fasts may go to small stuff but I’m young myself, my friends are my age, and big trucks and Jeeps are still the way the way to go Cruising on a F-350 rocks, with an EV, not so much ‘Hey let’s have a party at the charging station… but keep quiet’, yeah sure a blast

[@azorglub]

Time savings of owning an EV is the best part. Charge at home, no maintenance. It's amazing

[@petedawg]

Not having to fill up gas in the middle of winter is amazing.

[@ImLivinSD]

The cost savings of keeping my old Tahoe has paid for it self several times over during the last 24 years ZERO car payments. Not sure saving the 5min it takes to fill it up really matters. Glad yours is working out for you though as a lot of folks it does not.

[@TalismanPHX]

MSRP prices are too high, and dealership add-on markups are ridiculous. Inequality of income in America is fueling this slowdown. Used vehicles are the answer for the middle and working classes. 😢

[@omelborpon3159]

Agreed. The biggest enemy of the US automobile market is: US automobile dealers. Dealing with these jerks is the worst part of car ownership. Tesla has the right idea.

[@jeffgorchynski]

There are no more dealership add-ons anymore. Especially not for EVs.

[@pnketia]

Gasoline isn't the only cost involved with owning an ICE or Hybrid! Smog checks every year, oil changes, coolant changes, drive belt replacements, transmission flushes, muffler replacement, catalytic converter thefts. An EV eliminates all those worries!

[@santiagohills3997]

My Bolt is due for the transmission flush. But otherwise I affirm your point.

[@stargazer3828]

Also don't forget spark plug changes, ignition coil replacements, coolant thermostat replacement and EGR valve replacement. I had to do all that on my former ICE vehicle!

[@andrewsaint6581]

Catalytic-converter thefts. They say mining battery minerals is bad but Cats have Platinum and Rhodium in them. Usually used to make jewellery. 🤷

[@petedawg]

Also the risk of having your catalytic converter stolen.

[@BadBackOz]

Have owned my new ICE car for over 3 years and only costs from your list have been oil changes and fuel. Model 3 insurance is 50 percent more and I drive a RWD v8. My car has depreciated less from purchase price. Getting to a point to where overall ownership will cost less for an EV, but you're not fairing well if you bought one in the last few years. But hey, you saved on fuel and oil costs! A hybrid has been a better choice if you were just all about saving money.

[@hoffinger]

Interest rates are expected to have maybe one lowering in the 3rd quarter. Until then sales of everything will be slow. I have been in retail for 50 years and it is slow now. People are not spending on anything they don't need. Food, rent etc are all too high after the pandemic. 23:05

[@pspublic13]

That and cars are just too darn expensive. If all these $45k cars were $10k cheaper, you would see a lot more sales. The fact that prices are sky high AND interest rates are high, it is a double whammy to consumers.

[@kencharleton9807]

Plug in Hybrids are overcomplicated and disposable when anyone of the major components break . That's why dealers are pushing them on consumers and down selling BEV's which are next to no maintenance .

[@mikesamyn7054]

I can’t believe your guest from cox has no idea the efficiency improvements of an EV over a combustion engine. Wake up and smell the gasoline that your pouring out the tailpipe.

[@pspublic13]

Too late, the gas fumes have scrambled his wits.

[@redhat421]

Right?! How can you be an industry expert and not know this very basic stuff. Very surprising.

[@bobwallace9753]

Detroit lives in a self-created information silo. New car sales in China are now 50% EVs. EVs sales in Europe and other parts of the world are growing. These guys are strategizing over a constantly shrinking part of the global market. In August Tesla will introduce a less expensive EV that will be built in America. A $30k EV with a $7,500 federal subsidy is likely to take a huge market share.

[@Northbaylandscaping]

40:56 The Tesla Model X is a seven seater and Model Y 6 seater and yeah EV's are cheaper to operate and more convenient on an annual basis I've owned one 7 years saved over $21k in fuel

[@dclpgh]

All Legacy had to do was build EVs and Tesla was doomed. Memba that? The comments section of this channel was lousy with comments like that. Lets face it The big 3 failed. All they thought they had to do was stick-a-battery-in-it and they will come. Wrong. Mainly they failed the software defined vehicle test. And now they know their next gen cars will have to be sooo Tesla like that i bet at least one of them will throw up their hands and end up with Tesla's tech. And i have a feeling Telsa's 2nd Gen Product(s) will catch Legacy will their pants down !

[@juliahello6673]

They can’t use Tesla’s tech unless they rebuild their vehicles vertically integrated

[@danharold3087]

The notion that it is easy persisted far too long. Ford could have knocked it out of the park with the F150 lightning and mustang mach e. They used the B team and not only were the vehicles less than they could have been they were too expensive to build.

[@danharold3087]

Tesla uses suppliers it equips and trains to make Tesla parts. A few are off the shelf. I recall hearing the column stalks where common with BMW or another car makers.

[@dclpgh]

​@@danharold3087 Yep its funny how things turn out lol. The suppliers literally ignored Tesla. And now Tesla says jump and they ask how high.

[@Tokamak3.1415]

@@dclpghWell it kind of started from the top as well. Ford's former Jim infamously posted that Ford didn't need to build batteries in-house. Here they are 3 years later getting Congress involved scrambling to get their joint battery facility with CATL running. If they were up and running they would actually be making a profit on each Mach-E. I think only Tavares knows what's up but he clearly has no plans to make BEVs for the US market when gas guzzling sports cars are Stellantis' best cash cow - however short lived it may be.

[@guylarabie8229]

Tesla should get into the compact pickup field. It could do this easily by basing it on the Model 3 (at minimal cost).

[@cathyk9197]

"No one wants a stripped down Model Y" per Charlie Chesbrough. Lol...a 2024 Model Y RWD has more innovative tech and options included than ANY non-Tesla on Earth. Model Y = #1 global best selling 2023 vehicle. Each Model Y ever sold has the hardware capable to become an autonomous Robotaxi through free future over-the-air updates.

[@jdcarguy1242]

And likely soon.

[@mart0225]

Striped down meaning everything is buried in a screen and the interior looks more basic than IKEA furniture. I have a car with a touch screen and excellent voice commands. Having complicated touch screen controls at the expense of ‘simplicity’ is more complex for the end user.

[@ConversionCenters]

Mike C on EV adoption..."Once we move through the early adopters it's going to get a lot harder..." There are 30 battery factories planned or under construction in the US a great deal of financial analysis went into those construction loans. For 2023 EU new vehicle EV share 14.6% China EV share 25% US EV share 7%. It is going to get a lot harder to sell EV's? Global new Internal combustion sales peaked 2018? I own a V8 Cadillac, I love my dinosaur that nobody anywhere ever will want. Diesel market share of new sales in the EU for 2017 (49%) was 7.3M units for 2023 diesel share was 13.6% or 1.5M units. The Germans invented the diesel engine and they can't sell them anymore.

[@robinsonmac]

It's very simple, THE PRICES ARE WAAAAAAAY TOO HIGH!!! Mid size tru ks are the same size as full size trucks 10 years ago. Same.with each segment.

[@ws6002]

You are missing something really important about Tesla. They make money on the EVs they sell. Tesla is pushing their production lines to shorter cycle times, they are figuring out how to reduce the cost of the battery and the drive train. They are coming up with gigacasting and something they call unboxed production. Car seats literally get installed from below the car. So of course Tesla is obsessed with lowering the complexity of the interior. They want to make EVs, their bread and butter, affordable to consumers while keeping a positive number in the profits column. Luxury is torque at zero mph and a really fast 15 inch display.

[@wzDH106]

Ugh, hybrids and maintenance, going through the process currently with a new to us, used, Prius. Going to need new spark plugs, regular oil changes, transaxle fluid exchange, air filter, oil filter (almost forgot about those) and probably a new hybrid battery as these batteries are regularly beat to death compared to larger EV batteries....this on top of tires, brakes, and struts. The inverter coolant pump will probably need to be replaced soon, a common issue with this generation. The gas filter, I'm assuming the Prius has one, may need some attention, the vehicle has more sitting age over mileage. The accessory belt looks okay at a glance, but no idea if the AC works yet. The simplicity of EVs can't be beat, eliminating oil changes and the gas pump sold me 8 years ago. The maintenance schedule has basically been an afterthought....just rotate the tires.

[@cathyk9197]

The trick of making plug-in hybrids economically viable for consumers is behavior change...specifically plugging in the car at home each night like their cell phone!

[@edkalski2312]

They didn't mention the savings in maintenance an EV has over an ICE car. Far less parts.

[@davidbeppler3032]

They do not believe there are even savings in fuel costs! Lmao. I drive a 2022 TM3LR. I get almost 300 miles for just $9! In a 425hp. AWD super car!

[@RogueBagel]

Tires cost more and need changed more often - allegedly. Anyone got any solid info on that front?

[@edkalski2312]

@@RogueBagel Electric has no engine and no transmission. Fewer parts. No oil changing.

[@Tokamak3.1415]

@@RogueBagel If you buy an EV tire that has low rolling resistance it will tend to have lower tread height for less squirm, but the cost isn't too much more for ones that don't have the foam padding or extra wide performance tires. The tires on a BMW I3 are so narrow and small they're actually cheaper than those on a newer Corolla. What kills most NEW to EV buyers is the instant torgue - that never gets old and people enjoy the quick launches a bit too much. Control the lead foot and you'll get 40K easy, maybe not 60K.

[@williamerazo3921]

They are too expensive. Either cut cost, lower prices or manufacture a better product for that price. Price point is tooo high

[@pspublic13]

Better product won't change much. Current EVs are plenty good in quality, they are just way too damn expensive. Where the heck are all the $25K full-range EVs that were promised?

[@Cyrribrae]

​@@pspublic13in China. And slowly moving into Europe. They're already being sold. A thin veneer of regulations is all that keeps them out for now. It's wild that the legacy automakers and particularly the press are highlighting a short term trend that doesn't even say all that much, when the core realities haven't changed. When EVs that are cheaper than the ICE cars here arrive, begging the government to let them drag their feet on EVs isn't going to save them from the free market. I'd much rather buy American (or at least Japanese), personally. But they need to spend their money on development and production, instead of getting distracted.

[@External2737]

Consumers do not want mid-sized pickups. The price of full sized pickups is insane! People can only afford so much. They think little about fuel economy. They think a lot about $10k or $20k more in price. F150 starts at $38,750+ shipping/fees. Silverado $44,495 Ram 1500 $41,415 Maverick (mid-sized) $23,400 People need cars under $30k, ideally under $25k. This isn't a revolt. Inflation is not properly documented.

[@Cyrribrae]

The one reason I'm considering a large EV truck is because the big battery and bidirectional charging means that it could be a backup battery for my home. Haven't had too many blackouts since 2020/2021, but have to run medical equipment at home and the electric company still has to do maintenance periodically. The ability to run the house on the event of a long blackout is very attractive. Even better if we could sell that back to the grid on other days. But utilities are hesitant about that, it seems.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

In UK there is very little hesitance about buy-back with our utilities. Why would they not want to save the cost of starting a peaker plant. But a key difference here is that government did two things- - Separated to some degree, electric generation, electric distribution and electric retail. - Banned electric retail monopolies If the electric retailer that you are with won't do buy-back then you change to one that will.

[@Cyrribrae]

@@johnpublicprofile6261 I bet your national grid is also significantly more unified than ours are. Utilities here run fiefdoms - all with different hardware. Part of me would almost prefer burning it all down and starting over, if not for the non-zero chance that parts of the country might go decades without electricity with the political polarization here preventing infrastructure investment lol

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

@@Cyrribrae Yep, our National Grid is National. But even if you were to compare USA to Europe, I think there tends to be more cooperation, harmonisation and modernisation in Europe than USA. The ridiculous thing is that the utilities and politicians fight, tax and ban technologies that could improve the usability and reliability of the utilities infrastructure such as home solar, home batteries, buy-back schemes, distributed small scale generation or small communial sub-grids.

[@sergiomessina2037]

Mike Tyson once said everyone has a plan when they walk into the ring until you get punched in the face. Wait until Chinese EVs arrive here. It's going to be a nasty punch (OEMs) to the face.

[@davidbeppler3032]

Just got to the hybrid section. In 10 years all those hybrids will be scrap. The repair bills will be insane after the warranty ends. I hope they get that expensive extended warranty!

[@pabs5270]

Prius hybrids run to 300K miles.

[@daves1646]

It’s wild to me, that an ‘expert’ from Cox Automotive did not even think (dare to say?) that a reason for purchasing an EV was to reduce impact on the environment- as the grid gets cleaner / greener, so does transportation …. Wild for an ‘expert’. I get that the average American thinks environmental impact is someone else’s problem (regardless of what I think), but a public expert on transportation to not mention it, yikes. At least the WSJ staffer, Colin’s got it.

[@goodguy6352]

Drive a Model 3 and only go to a gas station to clean the windshield. Charge at home and just love it. Own a gas pickup for the trips and hauling. We drive the EV about 80% of the time. Much cheaper than driving the ICE vehicle.

[@JBsC6]

Why evs? Performance for gear heads and quiet luxury is being brought to the general public. Econobox ICE suffer from groaning motors and sloppy transmission shifting to keep the car up with traffic whereas evs have the quiet power plants, no transmission gear shifting and instant tq that makes the cars zippy ! 300 mile range is here and 20 minute recharge at super chargers or electrify america to go from 20 to 80 percent on the one week a year some might drive over 300 miles in a day. I’m on the 2nd new ev for the family and it far exceeds all our needs and plugging in within the garage is 99.9 percent of reality so time management wise owning an ev is way better Fwiw dishes hybrid ram will fly off the showroom floor once it arrives The charger ev is cool but a little too large a vehicle Should be popular if not priced too high comparatively to its past generation Ev sales dropped off because the house fire recalls moved most out of the ev market but that will be short lived Till then Toyoda is having a good laugh with his previous assessment of the market. Real world usuage he was wrong but playing on consumer fears has shifted American buying pattern along with lower gas prices than a year Or two ago. I prefer full ev as I enter year four of owning a ice c8 corvette and an Audi Etron. My new ride is an Ariya that is even more impressive than the Audi Etron believe it or not.

[@Tokamak3.1415]

What do you like about the Ariya? I was going to pick up an used 2019 e-tron until I saw how many failed front and rear motors they were having on the Audi forums, even for 2023 models. That Valcona leather seating feels much nicer than the vegan stuff in my Model X, but my Tesla has started every single day for almost 6 years - doesn't sound like that's the case with the e-tron sadly.

[@JBsC6]

@@Tokamak3.1415 the Etron served my families needs with utter reliability over the past three years. The lease was up and there was no inventory of electric Audis so I looked at what Else was out there and the Ariya fit the bill. The lease deal was amazing. The customer service during the lease process was excellent. The ride was wonderful. The interior and the exterior were to my wife’s liking. The acceleration at 4.8 seconds was more than quick enough for my better half and myself for family car duty. While I admire Tesla products my better half did not care for the Tesla cuv styling. No insult intended as everyone is entitled to their opinion on styling as is my wife. Very pleased with the Nissan ariya choice . Happy wife, happy life.

[@Tokamak3.1415]

@@JBsC6 Agreed happy wife happy life. I find all 3 decent looking (X, e-tron, Ariya) but I can see how the X and Ariya are polarizing to some - and the X doors are stupid at times and miracles at times. I love my X for it's function, I just wish it had more compliant seats like the E-tron. So Rivian R1S looks to be my next target since Honda/Toyota refuse to get with the program - I have large kids.

[@user-to2rf1rj5v]

42:22 It is absolutely cheaper to fill up with electrons, especially if you have home charging. I pay about $9 to charge from 0-100% in my 405mi Model S (actually, zero now since we just turned up our rooftop solar). It would be 4-5x that for a full tank of gas to go the same mileage. Also, factor in nearly zero maintenance (about $200 in 5 years and 60k miles on one of our Model 3's), and super high reliability (so low to no repair) and you get a pretty compelling low total cost of ownership story. And that's just the cost. There are LOTS of other reasons that a software defined EV like a Tesla is just a better ownership and driving experience.

[@davidbeppler3032]

How about instead of building a cheaper truck people can afford, you build a truck cheaper and lower the price?!

[@ethanwelner1230]

You mean like the sixty thousand dollar (but realistically more) Cybertruck thats 50% over its originally promised price?

[@danharold3087]

@@ethanwelner1230 Tesla has jacked up the CT price to collect $20K a copy more while it burns money ramping up. The money burning is already over as it is reported they are making about $20K a truck. Some expect the fully ramped line to have a 50% margin at the non foundation price points. Tesla bases prices on demand. If the 2 million pre orders were to evaporate I can see that 50% margin allowing Tesla to sell the CT for less than any similar sized truck on the market. If Tesla has not already ordered the equipment to setup additional lines I expect it will after it stops selling the foundation series and determines the take rate on the 2 million reservations.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

27:25 "I'm still vulnerable to gasoline prices." YEP. I've been saying that since 2017. Gas prices are always volatile, always dependent on a huge supply chain, always influenced by seasonal demand and how much oil companies think they can price gouge and whether commodity speculators think there could be war-related disruptions. Best part about buying a Chevy Volt was driving on home charging the entire time gas prices were skyrocketing because of Putin. I didn't get a new tank of gas from like Feb 2022 until I want to say June 2022. And with a hybrid you have that choice.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

I don't think they should be the top choice now. Full EVs are great now, especially if you have access to home charging and the supercharger network. Hybrids are absolutely 2nd though. BEVs, hybrids, gas, diesel, hydrogen, LNG.

[@Cyrribrae]

​@@mrallelectriccarlunacyyea. Hybrids are ideal for a fairly small subsection of the population. But I'd prefer most people go BEV. Or at LEAST please plug in your PHEV gdamn lol.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

@@Cyrribrae 100% agree. I'm happy in BEV land, even in hurricane country FL. Most days I feel like hybrids are 2010s style, but if folks will at least plug them in, they're closer than they would've been.

[@bobbammerlin6757]

Another Festival of the Gear Heads. Compare BEVs using ICE metrics and you have this episode.

[@joedias-ih9xf]

What’s going wrong? Buying a pick up is like buying a Mercedes or a Cadillac the average Joe can’t afford it anymore😢

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

*Is he stupid or dishonest?* Cox Automotive "Why buy an EV?" To say as an automotive analyst that you don't know whether it is cheaper to refuel a petrol or electric car, that does not scan. And despite John saying about charging overnight at home he stays adamant that charging an EV involves driving to charging stations, sounded like being maliciously obtuse. Then there are other reasons to buy an EV: - Safety, can't beat Tesla and even non Teslas have lower rollover risk. - Doesn't poison your children. - Reliability, no more blown gaskets, dirty fuel jets, starter motors failed etc. - Lower maintenance, no longer needing to replace oil, water, oil filter, drive belt, exhaust, manifold, brake fluid etc. - Better performance. - Quieter. - And, if you care about your descendants or nature, less harm to the environment. To rephrase his question: *"Why buy a better car?"*

[@moebees3060]

Yeah the problem with tesla is they don't have dials and buttons! Too minimalist. Ive had a model x for 3 years. I love it. I wanted an electric truck but the cyber truck won't work for me. So i just bought a new transit connect. I've had it 2 months and still haven't figured how all the dials and buttons work. I hate it.

[@kevtheobald]

Billy Bob,you are so closed minded it is sad you do not see the facts that battery tech had very little invested in it over the past hundred years. The age of the tech means little, it is how well developed it is and development takes resources, something ICE had a huge amount more spent, but in the last twenty years, EV tech has gotten a massive bump, still not at ICE levels, but with the limited resources I cested we have seen massive improvements. The reality is ICE is basically reaching the maximum it can do. EV tech is still well under developed, thus the massive gains we have seen just in the past ten years. You can hate EVs all you want, the world is changing and the day will come when in a y vehicle segment, electric vehicles will be the better choice. That day is less than a decade away. Globally the Model Y was the best selling vehicle for 2023. The new Model 3 has been called one the best values you can buy of any vehicle, no matter the type of power unit. There were those who claimed physical keyboards would never be out sold by phones with digital keyboards. Some can see change coming and others are stuck trying to fight change. Hope Autoline revisits comments and interviews where people were bashed ng EVs, because they will look foolish, just as people who thought cars would not replace horses.

[@hoffinger]

Some people are excited by novelty some get anxious by it. Eventually there will be no choice.

[@wonderplanet343]

Love the videos ❤. Thanks!

[@rdyardie]

One "maintenance" item not discussed is what has happened to some Canadians with EV's. For example, on two EV's made by Hyundai, one on the western coast and one on the east coast of Canada, people have hit potholes or damaged the battery case. The prices have been around $65,000 CAD for each repair. Well, how much does a person spend on a 2 year old EV. For the west coast EV, it was written off by the insurance company. Well, how does a person calculate that?

[@darcygibbons3836]

What the holy heck is wrong with analyst Charlie CheeseBro? He can’t even figure out how much money he might save by driving an electric vehicle. If that’s the depth of his analysis, I don’t even know how he’s got a job in this industry.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

*Tesla competition "Has all the bells and whistles"?!* Yes, Teslas don't have lots of mechanical buttons. But functionality wise they have more functionality than most of the competition combined and don't need to add a new physical button to the interior before they can add a new feature. Do GM cars get new features overnight, presumably along with the new buttons to enable them?

[@BryceLovesTech]

Stop that argument about people not being able to charge at home only 20% of Americans live in apartments. They’ll come up with any talking points to badmouth electric vehicles just like their Oil company masters want them to. My 2013 model S has 176,000 miles in the original battery and I charge at home 99% of the time.

[@rickgatewood6442]

Please fix audio!

[@GraysonA]

1:06: 🚗 Analysis of Q1 2024 auto industry performance reveals positive trend in new vehicle sales. 5:08: 🚗 Challenges impacting pickup truck sales include supply shortages, high prices, and decreased demand due to housing market issues. 10:12: 🚗 GM's focus on affordable luxury vehicles like Buick is attracting consumers looking for value and financial prudence. 15:07: 🚗 Challenges in maintaining profitability for car manufacturers and dealerships in the US market. 19:49: ⏳ Optimism surrounds potential interest rate cuts and improved market conditions in the coming months. 24:47: 🚗 Hybrids gaining more competition from plug-ins in the market, with potential for growth in the future. 29:37: 🚗 Ford delays key electric vehicles due to low consumer demand, prioritizing capital allocation wisely. 34:44: 💰 Challenges in SUV and pickup sales impacting profitability and incentives. 39:33: ⚙ Challenges faced by Tesla due to market positioning and competition, reminiscent of historical automobile industry patterns. 44:34: ⚡ Shift in focus to making compelling EVs due to threat from Tesla and consumer demand. 49:27: 🔑 Challenges in increasing adoption rates of electric vehicles due to low gasoline prices and potential need for policy changes. 54:54: ⚙ Challenges in expanding global market presence for US vehicle manufacturers. 1:00:27: 🚗 Chinese automakers gaining market share in Europe and challenging American and European brands.

[@bradstone2853]

All you guys are about two clicks behind the public. You show how disconnected you are, by your comments and talk, from regular people. Just as the domestic car companies are showing how disconnected they are from their traditional buyers.

[@hoffinger]

I charge on solar. Plug in grid tie inverters with used solar panels. Panels are cheap or free. Low voltage is safe to handle. They can be on the ground, on fences, on ladders. Rebates in northern California are $4k from pge on used EVs. I got a nissan leaf for $2500. Rebate was $4k. Private party sale. No gas, no oil changes. No damn water pumps or head gaskets or oil changes. Gas mileage is low when engine is cold on ice vehicles. Efficiency doesn't change on ev.

[@Tokamak3.1415]

If I'm not mistaken the used EV rebate is UP TO $4k, at a rate of 30%, so you would have to spend about $13.3K to max it out. Unless you're referring to some other incentive. Down here in SoCal SCE and SDG&E have given up on incentives.

[@santiagohills3997]

With ICE going to crazy complex twin turbo, variable cams, direct injection, the hybrid no longer looks all that complex. It’s just a bigger starter motor and a bigger starter battery.

[@AlexParkAndRide]

Why go to an EV??? Don't these people have children? Maybe grandchildren? Are these the same people that were wondering why remove lead from gasoline?

[@BryceLovesTech]

Nailed it

[@jdcarguy1242]

41:54 these guys are not following the story and how disruption is taking place.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

45:12 they didn’t get ahead of consumers. They put out a product that didn’t compete well head to head. Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, arguably even Rivian are selling just fine. If Ford (and VW tbh) sees lower demand than they expected, it’s the product execution. Adoption is happening. Folks are just buying other brands.

[@jmbickham]

I find it funny that the industry looks for any excuse before taking a look in the mirror and even worse that automotive journalism often falls into this pitfall. The clear thing that they aren’t saying or realizing is that they keep making/starting with the assumption that these companies product execution is good, so these sales rates being lower (sales growth being slower) is because of consumers. It’s all hubristic folly that is CLEARLY shown by various teardowns and the software challenges that VW, GM and Ford have encountered… the products are CLEARLY not as good as Tesla, Rivian and Hyundai/Kia. Worse… legacy auto is losing money hand over fist on each one of these inferior models and should instead be taking that hard look in the mirror and then hit the accelerator on development plans to better and more profitable vehicles.

[@stvybaby]

Legacy auto still assembles rather than manufacturers vehicles. They have already lost round one of the EV disruption. Meanwhile EV sales continue to skyrocket world wide. Tesla model Y at about $48,000 has passed up the Ford F150, Toyota Corrola and RAV4 by over 100,000 vehicles in 2023 worldwide sales to be the worlds tôp selling vehicle of all types with zero advertising.

[@mikesamyn7054]

What has not been talked about in the media is about EV‘s and what is the miles per gallon equivalent number compared to combustion engines. If you work the numbers conservatively it’s roughly 120 miles per gallon compared to maybe the best ice vehicle at roughly 40 miles per gallon … if you can get that at all. I’m getting roughly 3.9 to 4.2 mi./ kWh in my Tesla model Y. If you use the value of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gasoline, you will find that you are roughly at 134.8 miles per gallon. Why would you buy an ice vehicle? I’m sorry it doesn’t make any sense to me. Even if you are in an apartment and have to run to a charger it doesn’t make any sense economically buying a hybrid. Maybe time charging may be an issue today but it won’t be very soon. And lastly, buying a hybrid to me is a waste of time and a copout. Instead buy a ICE vehicle and sell it in a couple years when you finally wake up and realize your mistake.

[@Cyrribrae]

Well, that's a bit of an academic comparison. If you're basic that off the total energy potential of a gallon of gas, then you're just comparing the efficiency of electric vs gas motors. And yes, of course, the gas motor is very inefficient in comparison. But most people don't think in those terms (unfortunately, perhaps). The best comparison for most people is either how much a gallon of gas costs vs how much energy to go a similar distance. And that is usually in BEV favor too, but it's less stark. Or how much time in real world usage it takes - they usually focus on DC fast charging, but that's a good opportunity to talk about zero-effort home charging and never going to the gas station.

[@SweetNeoCon407]

Auto journalists love to tout the Buick Envista and Chevy Trax as affordable options, but, those are powered by weak, 3 cylinder engines.

[@chrisg8995]

It’s crazy that at the end of the day, for the most part no one really cares about emissions and the environment, in so much as if they have to do anything that affects their daily convenience.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

45:47 this guy is talking like it’s 2017 too. These aren’t 3rd cars. They’re 1st and 2nd cars, already. They’re going on road trips. Folks without 240v hookups (yet) plug them into 120v. I personally haven’t supercharged for the past 6 months and I drive all over.

[@nettlesoup]

Yes, I noticed that too. It's probably true that many families think like this but it's purely an education thing about the realities of EV ownership. I've been full EV since 2016, having owned only petrol cars my whole life previously (not even hybrids). My father is about to replace his only petrol engine car with a 2020 Tesla. He's seen how easy it's been for me to make the 220 mile journey there when I visit, and I've persuaded him that there's a good chance in a few years it will be safer for the Tesla to drive him than him driving himself and getting tired.

[@daves1646]

Chevy and hybrids - they had a Malibu model with the Voltec serial hybrid with direct power transmission (like Volt but no EV only range); 42 mpg EPA?. But they NEVER put any number of them in the dealerships …. Now they’re in extreme catch-up b/c they didn’t keep it alive and current as a contingency. Plan??

[@shanevanc]

You keep talking about Stellantis as if it's an American company. It's base is Europe and they are doing plenty in low cost eletric with all their European brands. This could also be where Fiat get's a foothold. The 500e could be that affordable city ev. They also have Citroen and Peugeot and Opel and Vauxal..stellantis is now very much more global than Chrysler or Fiat was.

[@JoePolaris]

Perhaps it’s time to start accounting how much ICE truly costs to operate, per another user, are we looking at the end of supersizing? I see a lot of folks with F150 going grocery shopping, those great vehicles don’t see a single trailer, sandbag, 2x4 or mud in their time of use. It’s a bit frustrating to hear it’s acceptable to push back the EPA dates, how many more fires per Annum will it take , EU will get above 105 again this year ? The guests on the panel seemed to convey numbers and perceptions that are possibly out of date, Sandy Munroe seems more optimistic, I’ve twice as many EVs in my area, loads of Rivians too. I think we will land somewhere between John predictions and Sandy’s. One topic which was not emphasized, big auto lack luster on software development, EVs and dealership visit are not really a thing, less parts , less maintenance, charge at home, no gas stations, quiet , 100% torque at zero rpm. There was a report released recently, hydrocarbons kill 1 in 5. If we also factor the benefits of EVs on easing pressure on healthcare, less noise pollution, better air quality.

[@jorgecintron9674]

My new house with 2 EV’s equals no oil spots on any of my concrete driveway and garage. I don’t even let friends or family with gas cars park on my beautiful driveway. They can park on the street. Yep, I’m that guy! Not sorry!

[@tesla_tap]

People buy EVs as they are just far more fun to drive! More power, little maintenance, no gas station trips every few days, no oil drips in the driveway, quiet, smooth, and has the latest technology. It’s amazing to me that anyone other than a gas station owner buys an antique ICE (and all ICE are antiques).

[@mart0225]

I rented EVs recently in Chicago and Palo Alto. Loved the drive. Charging was a nightmare. Even in Palo Alto where I saw everything from Cybertrucks, Lucids, Fiskars, Vinfasts, and even hydrogen powered vehicles, the charging sucked. On both trips I spent an afternoon charging. The chargers aren’t near places I went and my hotels didn’t have chargers. Tesla chargers weren’t convenient either. In fact, Teslas were charing at non-Tesla stations. That doesn’t work for business trips. I won’t rent another EV for a long time.

[@tesla_tap]

@@mart0225 - Sorry your charging experience was bad. Was this charging with a NACS (Tesla) or CCS (others). There are so many Tesla Superchargers around Palo Alto, charging is rarely an issue. CCS, not so much (and many CCS stations are non-functional or have limited power). This hopefully will get better to as more NACS stations are installed.

[@mart0225]

@@tesla_tap CCS. I drove from SFO to Monterey to Concord to Menlo Park. Didn't take my vehicle to downtown SF because of charging concerns. Charging was not conveniently located for any place I went. Neither were Tesla chargers -- I checked those too. My trip was a combination of leisure-business, so I couldn't choose hotels (with chargers). Every charge was a sit and wait. One charger was at Wal-Mart. I never shop there and had no reason to while traveling. My vehicle had a max charging rate of 150 kWh but never exceeded 100 kWh at 350 kWh chargers. Temperature was mid 50s to low 70s. Charged after driving for a least an hour. Charged from 35% to 80 or 90%. Every station had other vehicles charging, so presumably the power sharing prevented a higher rate.

[@andrewsaint6581]

This discussion is interesting in that everyone is a pundit. No-one is saying "I" as in I am saving a fortune. I love cheap inspections instead of full services. I love getting (sometimes) my tank filled for free to take oversupply of renewables.* Shell, BP etc., don't turn up at your house, put fuel in your car and poke a fiver through your letterbox before they leave do they? * Some smart meter tariffs UK and Europe.

[@urbanstrencan]

Do you see Ford bringing Maverick sized pickup to Europe petrol or EV version? Great podcast

[@stevepeace231]

SUV and truck sales are down because they use too much gas. A F150 driving 11,500 mi,es a year uses $20,000 in gas in 5 years. Too expensive.

[@marvinranaldson3457]

The innovator’s dilemma is very really problem that organizations face on a daily basis. They know that to survive into the future that they need to be producing the products of the future, and this means they need to be innovating. At the same time though, they also know that if they create a that they’ll be disrupting their existing,

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Ford and GM already mostly specialized in huge American boxes on truck chassis. That’s a bug not a feature. It’s one of the reasons Toyota has dominated and it leaves the door right open for Tesla to sell the EV of that size.

[@xiaoandmatt]

These car experts not knowing that Tesla is going to start production of the next generation 25k car in Texas makes me question how much these guys actually know about what is going on with Tesla and their plans.

[@wonderplanet343]

We have to change our zoning to walkable, and vastly reduce our population with smaller families.... Or we ruin the ocean and planet much quicker than expected. We are waaaaaay overcrowded.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

*The just build for home market debate* Approx. 60 years ago this is one of the major factors in the all-but-death of UK car industry, along with: - Crippling union strikes ✓ - Union wages and conditions swinging from to low to non-profitable ✓ - Reluctance by workers and management to modernse ✓ USA is ticking all the boxes to become a copy cat of UK's car industry, overtaken by foreign imports. In the UK the government then merged the big local companies into British Leyland in a failed attempt to keep some economies of scale and political pride. Leyland products became a joke.

[@DarkBrandon1]

OMG, these jokers don’t even know how many thousands of dollars you save in fuel with EVs? Clueless

[@JeepAndThings]

Dealers need to stop adding dealer markups on MSRP. 100% turns me off. My Cybertruck order I could have got in December, but refuse to pay the extra $27,500 and Tesla isn't even a traditional Dealer.

[@llee4225]

Shouldn't be a mystery when auto, interest, and gas prices have gone up? This is just a repeat of history. No news.

[@wonderplanet343]

That guy is still saying “The problem is is that…“. You don’t need to keep saying is is 😂❤

[@padfoo]

These are terrible analysts. They are extremely wishy-washy...

[@LionheartLivin]

The incredible continued misunderstood and myopic view of Tesla must be SUCH a boon to it's investors

[@brandonv8721]

GM is regaining RAM converts.....RAMs were good for the money, but not anymore. Ram is charging luxury prices with ghetto dealerships

[@davidbeppler3032]

Tesla can't build the Cybertruck fast enough!

[@brunoheggli2888]

Nah just buy a basic Fiat 500 manual,no need for Cyber El Camino!

[@davidpearn5925]

A brilliant dead end.

[@brunoheggli2888]

So how many will they sell this year and next year?I think 24k this year and 46k next year!

[@ethanwelner1230]

Or at all!

[@joweb1320]

It seems many people are canceling reservations for the Cybertruck.

[@edbern7387]

Poor quality and high prices do not a prime sales environment make...that and designs that all resemble each other inspire no one.

[@chrisg8995]

How do you guys says these things about Tesla when they 1. Have the best selling car in the world. 2. In America, the Model Y sell TEN TIMES more than the next non Tesla competitor, the Mach E, and3. They have by far the best components in terms of EV fundamentals, aka battery and powertrain. So, I’m sorry, but who is the competition?

[@AbleLawrence]

The blue tee shirt on the left is promoting the idea that EV should be the third car, which is all that an OEM EV can be unlike Tesla which can be the sole car.

[@davidbeppler3032]

Imagine Tesla building a car for $19,500 putting FSD on it for free, then instead of selling it....renting it out. At $0.25/mile and 900 miles a day, in 3 years that is $235k. Cut it in half for electricity and tires and overhead. That is a $98,625 profit per $19,500 car!

[@MbT379]

Excellent observation

[@mcpcem]

I have a huge vehicle, I use it all the time to haul heavy loads

[@deanmitchell9568]

In the 80's we where told if we are nice to China we would get cheap products and they would get Democracy. NC used to be number 1 in the world in some many industries textile and furniture making to name two. Those industries and their pay are gone, and now I want my cheap BYD in return.

[@cassidybb10]

John you can't say blood bath!! Don't you know? Lol

[@Tonga2]

Is Toyota’s trend to build only Hybrid vehicles the smart way to give people not only fuel efficiency but increased torque ?? I think it is as their sales proves it. Building 1 EV requires a lot of battery cells compared to a hybrid. Doing the math, 8-10 hybrid batteries equal only 1 EV. My next vehicle will be a hybrid.

[@nettlesoup]

Fuel efficiency of a hybrid is going to give you maybe 20-30% fuel savings in stop-and-go city traffic only, and even then only if you drive smoothly. The savings come as you approach the next set of traffic lights, by regenerating the energy you used a minute ago getting up to 40 mph. The fuel savings evaporate if you're doing spirited city driving (accelerating and braking hard) or really any highway driving over a couple of minutes. It'll end up costing more long term in fuel and maintenance.

[@JackMelqart]

well they are expensive, and since the inflation is up no matter what the White house wants you to believe, and interest rates are also up, so people have less money and getting a new car would cost them more..

[@blakeanderson9479]

John they can get there in 2032 easily if EV’s are cheaper than ice which they will be and after incentives they will be way cheaper!

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

39:07 how are you sitting there saying it’s long in the tooth? Have you driven ANY EV daily in the past 6 months to even be able to make the comparison? If you haven’t noticed a difference lately that speaks more about you than about the cars.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

That whole rant smells of the kind of analyst that only drives a car a few hours or maybe a day, or maybe just looks at videos someone else shot, and then forms an opinion. It’s completely disconnected from how customers feel and the way the market works. What decade is this?

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Hate to stick up for what amounts to a juggernaut but COME ON. You’re really going to sit there and act like Model Y is just not new enough to sell well? Maybe look at numbers. Haven’t seen Q1 yet but last year sales sure had a message you should pay more attention to.

[@stargazer3828]

Good we need people to buy ICE and Hybrids because the auto companies take the profits from those sales and use it to fund the transition to battery electric vehicles. So really any person buying an ICE or Hybrid vehicle is subsidizing the EV future. Thank you🙂

[@rjv2395]

seems your guests have different ideas about EVs than your previous shows. someone's numbers are off. you should be pushing back on these guests (from both shows) and getting to the real info. numbers can be interpreted in the eye of the beholder. pls do some drill down on the conclusions these economists make.

[@FrankD71864]

There will be a market for everyone: EV and Hybrid.

[@BjorckBengt]

Battery Electric is not going away.

[@NewCastleIndiana]

10:30 “…everybody wants the best, of course everybody wants the best.…” I must be the minority. I rarely ever want the best because you pay a premium for it. I want about the cheapest good enough. I’m a base model type of guy. Maybe my dad who grew up during the depression influence me in different ways than most of you guys.

[@heinuchung8680]

Nissan shade lol No surprise on their inventory. lol.

[@hereigoagain5050]

Seems that Covid has impacted customers' preferences. They seem to be more rational and less persuaded by emotional appeals.

[@MyUniversalUniversity]

So funny, this guy talks like cars are actually going to people and not the stealerships??????? The sales numbers are not going to people, the dealers have them in inventory. Finally talking about days of inventory!!!!

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

lol Georgia’s not red

[@dclpgh]

8/8.......Pants down day!

[@brandonv8721]

The Japanese and Koreans are friends......

[@edwarddejong8025]

People are begin squeezed hard by inflation, so of course people are migrating to smaller trucks and vehicles.

[@danharold3087]

Smaller or older.

[@CharliewatII]

It can not be understated that currently OEMs suck at making EV’s. Dealers Suck at Selling EVs. Meanwhile BYD is champing on the bit & Tesla is playing India against Mexico to eventually gift Tesla two New Billion Dollar Factories

[@adrianodiblasio2934]

I’m an auto analyst and I don’t even know why people should buy an EV.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

42:06 this guy is reading the cliff notes from 2017. It’s 2024. What is he doing here? EVs are popular. Everywhere but the US is well into the early majority on adoption. Every non-EV Charger planned is slower than EV Dodge Chargers. The Earth is warmer than it has ever been during human civilization. Customers don’t need convinced on EVs. They need sold on a specific model over another without that out of touch negativity in the room.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

44:02 I can’t make gas at my house. Somehow I’ve been driving an EV mostly from home charging since 2017. Get over the idea charging and gas is a 1 to 1 comparison. At the most, very rarely, it can be similar.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

If you study these things and you don’t know whether someone’s going to save money or not, after study after study shows the numbers, I’d consider that a skill issue.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

What percentage of gas car buyers choose a specific model because of how much money they’ll save on gas? Or do they drive it, like it, and just buy it? Then why is buying an EV only to save money such a big deal in this convo?

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

“So much risk like the battery” with 8 year, 120k mile warranties. “And depreciation” just like every other mass market car for the last 100 years. “And charging” tell me, when’s the last time you used a home or public charger? This is out of touch FUD.

[@mrallelectriccarlunacy]

Back to 44:02 “but you go to a charging station”. Yeah, far less than a gas station, and only if you’re doing a long trip or you don’t have a home charger. But go ahead, keep acting it’s apples to apples because otherwise you have zero point to make. 😂