Automarkers isn't the problem....

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[@starseekernate7244]

I can’t stress how this drama literally feels manufactured LOL.

[@chrislee5268]

Arthars and Xeno are well known for manufacturing drama that they feed off of with themselves and other streamers.

[@omensoffate]

@Hank4126good

[@chrislee5268]

"Cheating in UwU is bad but cheating to get WF is fine." Clown behavior tbqh

[@XUIW]

Mostly everyone cheat in Ultimate, Ultimate race to world 1st has always been clown behavior.

[@F3nryl]

Arthas is turning into a confused old man.

[@kaishuno]

@@XUIW That's why I don't care about world first and ignore it all, even those 'world firsts'. I just watch people who stream it because it's not really in the race and less cheaty.

[@XUIW]

@@kaishuno yup, exactly. Whenever I see world first I definitely wouldn't think it's genuine. But then again everyone uses some type of plugin or auto marker to carry them.

[@Dankeater_Midir]

Apologies in advance for the long comment So I started really raiding on 14 at the start of Endwalker, and due to never being able to find the right static for me I ended up doing every savage tier this expac as well as all 5 ultimates in party finder. For me, I don’t care about the rewards for clearing difficult content as much as I do about improving my gameplay to be able to clear future and hopefully more difficult content. All of this is to say that I think AM is completely unnecessary everywhere except for p5 of TOP (specifically for party finder). Have I benefited from AM in pf? Yes, as majority of people who pf ultimates have. But that doesn’t mean that I fully condone it or would ever run it myself. Titan Gaols in UwU is very easy to solve by simply using your eyes and loosely following melees/tanks towards Titan and healers/ranged away. Wroth Flames in DSR gives you ample time to self mark before the Akh Morns even start going out and all the movement has to happen. AM in uCoB and TEA is honestly completely unnecessary. Have I seen people use it? Yea, and 99% of those people ended up on my blacklist because even with them using AM against the wishes of everyone else in the pf, they still messed up to unacceptable degree. And then we get to TOP. Using AM for p3 transition and p3 monitors is not necessary in the slightest. They are solved using conga lines very similarly to both DoTH and Pangenesis, neither of which people use AM for. Yet people use it here anyway. P5 Delta doesn’t need AM because your final positions are determined by how you decide to break tethers, and people do use AM on it, all it even does anyway is mark Near/Far world, so why even use it? I couldn’t tell you, but yet again, people use it here anyway. Sigma and Omega are two entirely different beasts for pf to do without AM and without having someone who can reliably do all the marking. They have a loose set of rules to follow, and almost everybody can be interchanged for any position, so the biggest challenge would be figuring out some sort of priority on how to self mark within a very short span of time. Anytime you have Near/Far world, your position is in set in stone. But for the other 6 people it’s not so easy. Sigma: the only real rule here is that if you have no stacks of Dynamis from Delta, you cannot bait the hands (because you need to gain a stack of Dynamis here). You could say that nothings would always be both the baiters for let’s just say Near World, but then what happens when one or both them have the actual debuffs? My mind goes to using a conga line-esque kind of setup (Near/Far world step forward and self mark, the two closest people converge on them to indicate baiters, last two people bait hands unless they have nothing, in which case they would step towards a Near/Far player to indicate a flex. The problem with this is that you don’t have time to do a conga lineup because you have to do BPOG for the spreads/tower mech on Sigma at the start, and you don’t have enough time to do this after, you need to already know where to be going. Also, having a marker on your head can make it difficult during the BPOG lineup to see who the two nothing players are for the spreads, which is why when people use AM, it’s always pressed after towers, and I believe when people manual mark, it’s also done during the tower portion of the mechanic. Omega: Going into this there should be 4 people with 2 stacks of Dynamis and 4 people with 1 stack of Dynamis. The rules here are that the 4 2-stack people can only gain 1 more stack, so they must handle the Monitor baits and the Beetle tethers while ensuring everyone can still take a bait. The 1-stack people must take baits from both sets of Near/Far World in order to have 3 stacks. The challenge here is figuring out how to properly resolve the first set of debuffs since if done properly, there’s one possible solution left to give the remaining 6 people 3 stacks, 2 of which will have the Near/Far debuff themselves. Similarly to Sigma, any point at which you have the debuff, your position is set in stone, it’s just a matter of determining a priority for the other 6 people to decide who baits the Near/Far World and who baits the bonus mechanic, with the added challenge here being that there are two back to back sets, so just being mindful of if a 2-stack person has Near/Far World at any point, forcing them to have to take a specific bonus mechanic bait. My mind again jumps to a similar conga method I mentioned for Sigma, but the issue again being time. The first part of Omega is a two minute burst window while doing Predation dodges, and by the time you’re at the second, you need to know where you are going. I am not going to sit here and say that people use AM because mechanics are poorly designed, but I think that it is very lame if the best way to solve a mechanic is to thrust all the work on one or two people to assign positions for the rest of the group. If someone was able to create a method by which pf could reliably self mark, of course the community is too far down the rabbit hole to outright stop using AM, but at the very least pf will have a viable alternative. One final thing I want to touch on is about potentially why I think AM is so prevalent in at the very least the earlier phases of TOP, and maybe this applies to other ultimates, maybe not, but just remember this is my opinion. The Ultimate Project and similar groups who assist people in clearing. I think the work these people do is amazing in helping make more difficult content accessible, however, I think it has created a very bad subset of people who do pf. I have seen too many prog skippers to count in my time progging TOP off-patch, and it’s because of the mindset that if they can just get a log of seeing a certain mechanic, they can be eligible for a “carry”. Is that how it really works? No, of course not, I’m sure they have a bit more refined of a vetting process than that when choosing who to help. But that doesn’t stop people with this mentality from going and griefing prog parties and trying to progress by any means necessary. Just some final food for thought. If you actually made it this far, thank you for reading my thoughts, and remember this is all just my opinion.

[@negeo1234]

Nah i aint reading allat

[@skcans]

The thing is even if you can justify cheating for just 1 thing (p5 top) you're still cheating. It doesn't matter if you use am for 1 mechanic versus 100 mechanics, you're still cheating. The moment you agree it's okay for even 1 usage, you've already opened yourself up to cheating. So if you're going to cheat once, might as well cheat again, which is why am is becoming more and more prevalent in every ultimate. Like yes we don't need am for lightning in nael and p5 dsr but again, if you already have automarkers turned on for another mechanic, you might as well use it for those trivial mechanics as well... there's no reason not to once you've already started cheating

[@Bankai90]

​@@skcans they could've simply gave 2 people an aura or sth for omega to make the mechanic not a mess to force people into voicechat and AM would've likely not even been used till maybe 5-6months later if at all ye it's cheating, so is the beardmod or shader I am using, so is clippy or alex, or act, all of it is "cheating" since all of it is against ToS. The mechanic isn't hard in itself, it just lacks the possibility to be done consistently in an environment with no voice call or forcing 1 person to be responsible in PF if 7 others clear already 15min+ into the fight. It's just bad design, and if you wanna say "ults shouldnt be done in pf". Well than that's another extremely sht design issue in itself

[@skcans]

@@Bankai90 This whole "the fight was poorly designed and forced the community to cheat" is so stupid. The first half I agree, p5 top could've been better designed to give more visual clarity, but that doesn't force you to cheat nor does it excuse it. The difference between having 1 person that can mark versus automarkers is you need to actually find 1 person that can and is willing to mark, whereas automarkers don't require that. Humans can make error but automarkers can't.

[@Bankai90]

@@skcans I completely agree that you get an advantage. I'm just so vocal about this cause it's not really an advantage about easing the difficulty. This game already is quite dead when it comes to content like this. If the 3healers who kept spamming TOP would've just walked away on patch on EU after 1clear we probably would've had like 40% less clears total there lol. Sht took literally an entire day to fill just to disband cuz 1 person was proglying again. And now you wanna go and put the responsibility of an entire clear just on 1job which is already rare to find, since again for the other 7 players nothing really changes besides even more timewaste. Now I could agree that making time is a big factor in clearing ultimates, way more than skill. And thus it devalues who can nolife more. But is TOP easier with AM than it is in a static with voice? I don't agree with that, and i frankly don't care if it's against TOS. Without alex I would've deinstalled moved on from this game years ago Idk, I consider this bad design. I don't mind AM. I've exact amounts of clears with and without(10 each) and it was simply more enjoyable to me with. Not less difficult, simply more enjoyable i come from competetive pvp games, nothing in top is inherently difficult in the first place, the 10m u need more to understand omega are not enough of a thing for me to call people "cheaters" cuz they enjoy PF'ing

[@hecate3608]

I just can't take you seriously like Cheating for UwU in a random PF is wrong, but cheating to get a world first isn't, mindblowing

[@chrislee5268]

It's different because it's his friend.

[@PuthySlayer69420]

if you need am for titan jails its a skill issue my static cleared every tier and ultimate on console without any third party, just git gud 😂

[@mr.gamingz]

@@PuthySlayer69420 using a jpstrat isnt good aswell ;)

[@reverieofmusic436]

How did you get that from this video? Maybe watch it again from the beginning. What a joke.

[@hecate3608]

@@reverieofmusic436 He rant about how he's pissed and even " digusted " that AM has become such a standard thing to use in PF, almost mandatory if you wanna PF some fights like UwU, people not even hiding it anymore and just ask to bring it in the recruitment message, which i agree with. But then, when talking about Rin, who cheated in a world first race, he defends him, says he consider him to have the word first despite using a cheat, going as far as saying " why do you think Neverland and the other don't comment about the drama ( because they all technicaly cheat, either it's just ACT or something worse like a zoom hack ), which implies that to him, it's fine to cheat since everyone does it, kinda mad. And later he's saying how crazy it is that people on twitter defend the use of AM despite it being a cheat, while he literally defended a world first raider that cheated during the biggest " competition " of the year, with the only excuse of " zoom hack and wide screen is the same thing ( okay well, AM and macro is the same thing then) And at he beginning, he clearly says " Worls first raider use whatever they can to clear the fight first and cross the finish line whatever it takes " He know many of them are cheating but it's " their problem " and justifies it by saying they're world first so it's a different category, they use w/e it takes blablabla And he moves on, and then spend 15mins ranting about random people cheating in PF It's like saying that the use of illegal subtances in professional fighting is w/e because they gotta do anything it takes to win and it's not his problem but if you cheat at your local gym against your friends then it's the end of the world and he's gonna come to yell at you. So yea all in all, you can just feel by, either by the way he talks about it or simply because of the words he uses, that to him, random people using AM on Ultima is a waaaaay bigger problem than world first static being cheating for a race to world first

[@spacebats20]

I'm very confused by this video, you keep saying you don't care about if people cheat or not but then you keep talking about it and that you want to report it to yoshi p in person, which is it?

[@Ephemeral96]

Hey the streamer needs to eat too xd need to manufacture drama instead of coming up with actual content LMAO

[@Bankai90]

Just keep making no AM pf's. If people collectively feel so strongly against AM then the groups should fill faster than the AM groups :)

[@ridleyroid9060]

Problem being is that people do feel strongly about AM. Just in the opposite direction.

[@Xion-Rotti]

As soon as I started seeing AM in Ucob for thunders I knew it was going too far.

[@undercoverspy123]

Its always been going too far. It's cheating, and boring, and watching the playerbase that cheats invent 100 different rhetoritcal dogshit statements to just try and save face.

[@handles_are_idiotic]

i forgot that was even a thing but yea, it's ridiculous

[@OldManInternet]

19:19 This is absolutely true. I stopped playing World of Warcraft because I was sick of the damn addons. I got KSM and AotC in Nathria without using DBM because I find it obnoxious, but since everyone else has it, I'm still getting all the notifications, raid warnings, chat spams, and all if it still making my experience garbage. PvP was awful without Gladius and similar tools because you're at an astronomical disadvantage to players who have it. And there's really no other aspect of the game worth interacting with outside of Raid, M+, and PvP. The reason I decided to choose FF14 was because they had a pretty hardline no addon stance. There was a don't ask/don't tell vibe around ACT if you wanted damage numbers, or nude mods if you're a coomer, but nobody was expected to download mod packs to play the game. You weren't going to get denied a raid spot because you didn't use Cactbot (DBM.) THAT was the games biggest selling point. Not the story, not the ultimates, not the welcoming community. I'm not sure if the high end raid scene has always been using addons, or if it's more prevalent now because more WoW players are playing FF14. Either way the current state of the community is just sad when it comes to this topic. People either don't understand how bad these things can be for games, or they don't care. If you want to cheat in a multiplayer game, so be it. The game and community is worse because you are a part of it, but you are a paying customer (unless you get banned) and if you're more worried about your experience than everyone else in a massively multiplayer game, that's your choice. But don't try and justify it. Don't explain what % of the fight you did properly, how anything the addons are doing a player can do if they wanted to, or how some of the cheat mods are just emulating real life advantages from things like a wide screen monitor or geographical location. Don't argue how auto marker isn't as bad as Catcbot, which isn't as bad as autorotation. If a mod is interacting with the game to help you resolve mechanics, you're cheating. Nobody is interested in your line in the sand, or your subjective morality. Just accept your title and weapon and keep this garbage to yourself.

[@razzgrizz3]

bruh you can buy a top clear for like 50 bucks these days. noone cares

[@shicyn]

I wouldnt use AM to say a player cant improve. You can still learn to understand mechanics even with AM

[@zefflick9475]

This drama just highlights how similar the ffxiv community is to the WoW community. There is a really good video titled "Why it's rude to suck at Warcraft." By folding ideas. It's a video about wow, but the ideas discussed are very similar to what's happening in ffxiv atm.

[@midwayxD]

I have no problem with people using AM, my problem is people "forcing" others to use it too. I'm a solo player that really wants to get into savage/ultimate content, but when PF starts demanding plugins just to be accepted in their party, yeah... no.

[@oszaszi]

There is this beauty in this game. Where you can make your own party in PF... you dont need to wait until there is a suitable party popping up for you... I have a friend like this, keeps waiting until there is one party up for his prog point instead of freaking making one. Sometimes waits more than an hour cause his role spots are taken. Like holy macaroni... the incompetence. People do old content sometimes on MINE (min ilevel no echo). No one will tell you not to do old content unsynced, if you make a party that clearly says MINE. Literally no one. If you put up a party saying NoAM, no one will tel you to use one. It will fill slower thats all. Just like how slow MINE parties fill. But they fill.

[@midwayxD]

@@oszaszi Your friend's situation is different than mine. He's already at a point where he's doing prog. Like I said "I WANT TO GET INTO" I'm not there yet. You persepective is out of touch with how things are for solo/new players. I agree 100% with you that simply waiting for the "perfect" party doesn't work, but that was not what my comment was about. My problem is when plugins become the norm, and it starts to be seen as a nearly mandatory point for raiding. I'm the type of person that sees things realistically, not the "let's just believe in the power of friendship and everything will be ok! uwu" and realistically speaking, whoever looks at PF and see 100 parties advertising with plugins, with better odds to get clears vs 10 without, which one do you think people will want to join? And that loops back to my original comment, about pf "demanding" plugins. Either you fold to the masses and join the plugins club or wait months untill it's considered "old content" and people join out of boredom.

[@bunbun1809]

No one forces u to run plug-ins all a group needs is 1 person running it and it shows for all

[@rydil1847]

@@midwayxD nobody is demanding you to download and install plugins, and you do have a prog point. it's called fresh. As the other person said, make your own pf and say 'no AM being used.' Will it fill? Eventually, but it will take significantly longer. In addition, you're making a bad faith argument and you know it. Unless you're specifically trying to do UWU or TOP, nobody is expecting AM. DSR *might* have some people who join thinking it will be there for wroth, but guess what? You're fresh, so you're nowhere near wroth. That situation can't occur. Secondly, AM in DSR isn't anywhere near as prevalent as UWU and TOP. Or once again, clearly state in your pf what the strats are. This includes if you're using AM or not. Your comment about people will only join out of boredom when it's 'old content' is completely wrong btw. If you do TOP is 10 years' time, PF will still use AM for it. Nothing will change there. They still use AM for a single mechanic in an ultimate that's about to become become 6 years old.

[@ridleyroid9060]

Yeah this is my biggest issue, I absolutely have no problem just learning priority systems and learning the mech. But at some point in some instances, like in DSR/UwU/TOP Automarkers becoome basically mandatory because the overwhelming amount of community says it is. I get why, and honestly I don't care, if that's how most of the community wants to do it than I cba to become some ardent rebel. Good luck on getting a party that doesn't want to use it in PF tho.

[@ouromov2895]

For clear. Whatever. For competing? Addon usage is 100% cheating and immediately makes you suck compared to anyone who cleared without.

[@glimoreganajai2206]

Theres no AM in world first for obvious reason, it just doesnt exist.

[@Skippy7547]

So I personally don't need it. I think the reason people want it cuz it speeds up prog especially when they're a pfer. I'm in a static who's been speed running all the ultimates and we are all very skilled and consistent with some really short times. In a group in coms I don't see any point in using it, our raid lead decided to use AM for TOP to get thru P5 as fast as possible since they want to get everything done as soon as possible. Idc if its used or not, I would need to figure it out but never in my life am I going to cry about it going away or it not being there. I've noticed all the AMs are during mechanics that are super late into the fight and usually something with a weird adjust that could happen, so they use AM to prevent any possible fuck ups from randoms. But jfc I've seen AM for dumb shit. P9S doesn't need an AM for limit cut. You literally already have a number over ur head. However, I also don't agree with people purposefully going into a pf to mess with people using AM with a disabling macro cuz they hate that it exists with the idea of "Well I did it without it, so you don't deserve it" mentality. Its really on the community itself to explain how these mechanics work and how to read it to people who aren't doing well with learning it. I mean the main toolbox for TOP explains it exclusively with AM, it kind of explains the normal way but I honestly don't recall seeing it. I think it would be good to figure out why people think they need AM or why its heavily relied on for those mechanics. I've done some teaching groups for people and I've met some who just don't get it at all no matter how I go about it, I'm not entirely sure what to do. Even if AM stays, it still ends up requiring some form of consistency and skill of the game to finish the fight regardless, even if a tool is made for quicker prog or understanding. And even with AM people still mess it up all the time equally as much 💀

[@epicfacesmiley]

Not gonna defend it against the cheating allegation cause i dont necessarily disagree, but you definitely still need skill to clear a fight even with AM. I think arthars stance is quite reasonable that its definitely not comperable to manually placing marks etc cause its instant and doesnt require any interaction from anyone on the team I will say some mechanics are literally easier without AM lol like lightnings in both ucob and dsr

[@avi3365]

people actually need AM for thunderstruck in UCoB / DSR? bruh wat? Is this really a thing!? Holy

[@eliofastora]

I think people are just reacting this way because of how AM is so normalized in PF and statics. It doesn't matter whether the mechanic is easy to learn

[@FliceTrance]

"It's okay to do it as long as it's behind closed doors" is literally all this boils down to and you've said nothing to make me think otherwise... If Yoshi P does go after our use of third party tools because of PF being open about it whereas you're just using it behind closed doors, then I hope they take it to the Nth degree and ban people for even using Discord/TeamSpeak. This nonsense is so hypocritical and just reeks of a desperate attempt at gatekeeping Ultimates from PF for no real benefit to yourself.

[@rociosilverroot2261]

Alternatively, there is no problem and you're yelling at clouds

[@Tylendel_]

He uses ACT - banned by his god Yoshi P. Anything Artharas says is worthless as long as he is using 3rd party tools himself. - I agree with him tho, but you can't sit there and slam the community when you are using a 3rd party tool yourself XD

[@lastdayer101]

The game is better without reliance on third party.

[@mosimbatm5693]

who cares

[@marvinkwon2824]

I like xenos take: having 1 out of 8 ppl doing call outs is kinda the same as having melon. You either have a program telling u where to go or you have a person telling you / or even marking you.

[@Lionlicious]

If you're offloading the mechanic to someone that's fine, if you're offloading it to a program that's cheating. You do what you want though.

[@miatomi]

it was a braindead take

[@marioharrer9999]

tht worst take ever on this since ppl can make mistakes, meanwhile program does not unless u code it incorrectly

[@SilviteRamirez]

None of Xenos takes on cheating are good. He unironically makes the argument that anything that isn't explicitly FF14 is a third party tool. Completely braindead interpretation of the TOS and the most bad faith engagement with the topic possible, and because his audience is one of if not the biggest English speaking audience it leads to huge groups of equally stupid people chiming into the conversation with the same stupid fucking takes

[@glimoreganajai2206]

@@marioharrer9999 your goal is to make mistake or something?

[@GrukoffGaming]

"Atleast it isn't like WoW raiding where you have so many addons that are mandatory!". It wasn't always like that with WoW. It all started with people justifying addons. Slippery slope.

[@cannoli2442]

My opinion for automarkers is nuanced but for the ultimates that I've done on pf it's only seemed necessary for UWU. For dsr it seemed pointless just look at you debuffs and adjust. Not necessary for TEA. Mostly just basing it on pf and the fact that it's complete cancer. For a static environment you have the means of communication to figure it out with your group

[@lindigo_]

Yeah, for UWU I really wish they would implement a simple debuff to titan jails since the only issue I really have with it is identifying who has it when it's orange floor marker on orange floor. From then on that entire mechanic is just identifying who's it and who's calling shots on where to stand (and hoping the front person hits titan). The other ultimates are designed better where the mechanics translate well for pf, that AM is unnecessary (at least from what I've heard/seen). But ya I agree.

[@FromHJH]

yeah I really cannot see why anyone would need any add-on/plugin for TEA like that fight has to be one of the easiest out of the all the ultimate lol only UwU people would use addon for the titan jail aside from that noting much else

[@ridleyroid9060]

Yeah for UwU I think it straight up is just compensating for absolutely awful design. I am also colorblind and I cannot to hell see who has Goals visually, and seeing it, while dodging the landslides and baiting them and then also gettting to the correct position with everyone else also getting to theirs is just silly imo. That one mechanic honestly makes me never wanna run UwU ever again.

[@xbree_]

Kinda sick of this discussion

[@ISesseriI]

I cannot speak for TOP or DSR, but UWU or TEA I cannot comprehend why people would not just make more specific strats instead of resorting to an auto solver for mechanics. Especially in modern ffxiv which shows you the job portrait next to someone's name, you could easily make prio based on jobs and its easier than ever because you aren't looking at someone's name that you don't recognize, you can see its your fellow melee dps, or its the healer etc that get's gaol'd. It will take some getting used to but I hate that the community solution to gaols was to just not even try to learn the mechanic. If you are incapable of or do not want to learn the mechanic, you don't deserve to clear the "easiest" ultimate lol.

[@KaedeSatorui]

I’ve lived in tea pf when I was grinding out a 10 day clear of the ultimate and I never saw AM a single time in TEA. There definitely are specific strats that PF use. In fact AM in tea is more so looked down upon bc there’s not a single thing that you would need AM for in TEA. Maybe u just had some weirdos in your pfs lmao

[@shicyn]

UWU is about timing and others not making the same choices in 1-2 secs. That's not enough time to consistently do 3ven if you know what you're doing. Titan jails AM is 100% justified. It's an unbalanced mechanic But I only cleared uwu 89 times, so I'm just not good Tea? I haven't seen AM yet and didn't clear with AM UWU has strats in pf. It's just bad bc the mechanic is unreasonable

[@ISesseriI]

@@shicyn I fear you are just bad. My static literally had a stroke patient, someone who regularly parsed zero in any content he cleared, savage or extreme. He could do gaols. The mechanic is far from unreasonable, people did it before there was ever AM.

[@bhaal4038]

Expecting the community to police itself is stupid and naive, not sure how Arthars reachs this conclusion since he is rather experienced in MMO. This is ultimately Yoshi-P's responsibility, either stopping making fight like TOP p5, or start actually banning AM instead of a TOS that is not enforced. Blame the game, the players are always going to choose the easy path, that is how it is.

[@kita6502]

These people can be still skilled but its still cheating. Im not saying to witch hunt people but i think people have gotten wayyyy too conditioned to using some sort of tool. Almost everyone is guilty of this and it sucks for those that want to do it without tools. People will tell them you have to use tools you have to use this or you are kicked. And it just creates this unhealthy mindset. If a pro athlete cheats, yes he still might be good but he will still be known as a cheater. The only reason square hasnt did anything because they know people would leave not because they dont care. They just care more about money

[@kwamedwards]

My issue is when people complain about what other 3rd party program people are using. I don't care if someone is using an auto rotation, invincibility, zoomed out to the moon program and you are just using ACT, it is the same to me. You cannot be breaking the rules and complain that someone else is breaking the rules more than you, which is why I don't use any of it. If they put an ACT-like addition to the game it would not bother me because I think it is a good program but until that day it is still 3rd party. The only guidance they have given is that 3rd party is not allowed without any scale of severity so any and all infractions should be punished the same if they wanted to punish people. They also should really start using a different term than 3rd party because that is too broad and people like to argue over the semantics rather than the intention of what they say. Chrome or firefox is technically 3rd party and it would be dumb to say that isnt allowed.

[@Kealmir]

Auto markers aside, would be cool to see some more fights updated with visual graphics consistent with the current raid tiers. The current savage tiers use a numerical marking mechanic. Argument wouldn't need to be had, and I don't really care about making dated content like this easier.

[@undeadNova]

stuff like automarkers and mare mod loader are draining the game and need to be gone yesterday. I am genuinely surprised they let stuff like that be put so blatantly into the open without any kind of action. if you're not using it you always just have to awkwardly nod and look the other way because it is way too wide spread and commonly accepted. really disappointing

[@powergi3996]

I progged and cleared TOP on release without auto markers, and it was horrible... but we did it, took 2200 pulls. If i ever reprog TOP, there is no way in hell i would do it again without AM. Edit: Unnamed_ are the real and only TOP world first.

[@Vash_tha_Stampede]

I play on console so I obviously don't use addons and I may be biased when I say I think it's cheating as well and think people shouldn't use them. I understand why people would use them but if they're going to cheat then they just need to say they're cheating with a smile and stop trying to kid yourself and justify it

[@glimoreganajai2206]

Drama farming again.

[@mr.gamingz]

Every single world first raider uses cheats (including you) why cant PF do it aswell?

[@RX995]

many know that if you have dps meter do not post or show it because you may get ban by doing it, but not AM? why they think posting PF say you need AM are ok???

[@arkzielrcr3853]

Yea first weeks on P9 i would mark myself lol i still have it. Good forum for this controversial topic, i do enjoy understanding the fight and not a fan of AM that's why i love first week progs

[@redbloodreaver4935]

The unspoken golden rule of thumb is simply to be discreet with plugins. That's been the mantra with plugins since forever. So I don't know why Arthars in recent days has to bring up automarkers every chance he gets, then shits on those who don't agree with him. What objective change does he want? Having SE take action against AM is the equivalent of them taking action against the entire mod community, effectively banning the entire xivlauncher suite of plugins. Like, just shut up and play the game bro 😂 it's cool if teams use AM; it's cool if they dont. Don't hop on PF teams if you don't wanna see AMs

[@marioharrer9999]

well i think entire discreet part is out of the question when addon devs especially visual ones are starting to ask money for them, literally breakin laws of intelectual property.

[@adamm1117]

This entire video is of him ranting and flip flopping his stance, it's weird. "I told Rin to come back to the game, everyone uses am and that's so much worse" to "Use it if you need it to clear, I don't care" to "How can anyone justify the use of am" like bro, make up your mind. You can have one, maybe 2 but not all 3.

[@glimoreganajai2206]

@@adamm1117 its drama farming, FF has no content and he needs to make content, so there we have it

[@adamm1117]

@@glimoreganajai2206 that makes a ton of sense lol. I kept wondering, what is even the point of this video? Now we know

[@taylenismable]

You realize that also the entire Dalamud mod scene is literally all against the game's ToS right? I don't really understand all the crying in this case, if you wanna cheat suit yourself, but at leaat have some self-awareness...

[@deryk3213]

xeno cleared you

[@Kizoja]

I started the game day one of 2.0 but didn't really get into it until I came back for HW launch. One of the things I loved about FFXIV was the lack of need for UI addons, DBM, etc. As I got further into raiding the more and more people I saw using ACT triggers. I avoided using them for all of HW. When UCOB came out and everyone was passing around an UCOB trigger pack. I also purposely had my chat out of the way and I thought Nael's quotes were only in the chat, so I used my first trigger. I took a long break during SB and came back in 4.5 and wanted to catch up on ultimates. Finished UCOB, started UWU, seemed every group I saw used the jail plugin. Fast forward to TEA and paisley park and cactbot seemed to become way more publicly main stream. Even the world first of TEA used paisley park which was the third party tool that moved markers around automatically phase by phase, basically automarker but for waymarks. It kind of rubbed me the wrong way because I preferred to use as little third party tools as possible. I felt like I was the minority though because of how accepted and the norm they had become. I eventually reprogged TEA later in the expansion with no third party tools. Fast forward to DSR and I'm in a static that'd I'd done a couple of tiers with and there was one dude that used triggers for himself. We're reaching P6 and we're talking about wroth flames and they want to use automarkers. I'm showing them how easy it is to mark manually from a VOD, but once again I'm the minority and I've already progged to P6 with these guys. I'm not about to strong arm them or leave the group that far in over them wanting to use AM. Eventually came TOP and I'm in a new group and I pushed a little more about not wanting to use AM and we cleared it with no AM and no third party tools. I would do call outs in sigma/omega like omega dodges, etc. while a healer would mark people manually. We had a couple of parts where it was hard for her to manually mark everything in omega, so we supplemented voice call outs with partial markers. The conversation came up in that DSR group a couple of times whenever the FFXIV community was talking about third party tools, usually after a streamer or someone would get banned because of them. They all seemed to have the sentiment of the game isn't that competitive and it doesn't really matter if someone needs to use them to clear then they can and who cares, "it's just a game." I agree to a degree, but it is annoying when they're so blatant that I can't not see/benefit from them myself. In wroth flames, I'd just get marked. The guy in that group that had triggers would just instantly call in or out for hot tail/wing. I felt like I didn't have the chance to read or do those parts myself. I remember one time me and the leader were discussing members between tiers and one of the selling points of one of the guys was how he makes his own triggers and stuff that can help the group and I was like, that's literally a negative for me. I see similar arguments for AM that I see for ACT triggers. "You'd just have someone else doing it in the party, so I'm not really cheating." I feel like most people that have done call outs understands that it detracts from your attention to other things. ACT triggers do it without fail. AM does it without fail. They both automate something that would normally require someone to redirect some of their focus and leave room for error. ACT triggers also will call out mechanics for you when everyone had different jobs that a shot caller wouldn't call. You wouldn't use them if they didn't make you perform better. If you isolate any one aspect of playing the game it will seem trivial. It's a combination of everything and how you distribute that with among your group that is fun and challenging. My opinion has shifted over time. When I was newer I didn't use ACT triggers. I was indifferent, but it seemed the norm for raiders to use them. Stuff started feeling more cheaty with paisley park and cactbot and I started being a bit irked by it because if I didn't have those I felt at a more significant disadvantage and it was becoming more and more mainstream. I started to become more anti third party anything. Nowadays I feel like anything helping you during the fight is basically cheating. That includes AM, ACT triggers, zoom hack, whatever program shows AoEs when they're not actually telegraphed. It's not an inherently competitive game though, so if you feel you need them go ahead, but I prefer if they don't also spill over into doing the mechanic for others. My current grey area is stuff like the raid sim. Is that just a study tool or is it too powerful compared to watching a guide that it becomes more cheaty? I kind of view it as a study tool, even though it definitely is way more powerful than other study tools, just because it doesn't assist during the pull. There are very few groups that truly do ultimates blind. People say it's a small percent that clear and I'd argue it's a small percent of those that clear that actually did it blind, so comparing prog times seems a bit pointless once you're not doing it blind. I feel like all the raid sim does is cut prog time down by not requiring you to spend 10 minutes making it back there each time to work out the kinks of the mechanic you already studied in a guide. I also have the unpopular opinion that ultimates shouldn't NEED to be PFable. If people don't have anything else to do in the game then that's a problem with other aspects of the game in my opinion. I don't necessarily agree the content set to be the hardest content in the game needs to be achievable in a group full of players who have never played with each other and no communication.

[@dabK3r]

I am happy that this is finally being adressed cause I was thinking about starting to do ultimates in pf. but at this moment the whole automarker thing has kept me discouraged. if i could press a button and ban everyone who uses am for 30 days everytime they start the game with it running i would. I hate any form of an external tool solving the mechanic for you. that's why i left wow.

[@spookedyaa931]

womp womp

[@dabK3r]

@@spookedyaa931 ?

[@spookedyaa931]

@@dabK3r just say u can’t clear

[@dabK3r]

@@spookedyaa931 I havent even tried yet? except for 7 days of UCoB? And I also don't really know what hating AddOns has to do with it?

[@spookedyaa931]

@@dabK3r when?

[@sevxone]

Funny to hear from a WoW perspective where weak auras are king and call and do everything for you and everyone is using them xD

[@goropanckechi3028]

irrelevent to the debate. you just try to devaluate EVERY point he said by any means. if you hate Arthars it's fine. but try coming up with a better arugment. brain damaged. WOW and XIV are 2 different games. add ons are like accepted and an outside core thing of WOW at this point,fights are built around them. not in XIV.

[@sevxone]

@@goropanckechi3028 dunno how you got that i try to devalue everything he said and that i HATE him cause of my comment but ok, relax dude.

[@sciencejoe]

@@goropanckechi3028 It's always the Akechi fans SMH

[@goropanckechi3028]

@@sciencejoe I don't even like midsona 5. Just thought the meme was fun

[@zeppeli100]

​@@goropanckechi3028 add on are largely accepted by the playerbase and ignored by developers (outside of the bit where they constantly add add on into the base game as core functionality). arthars and people like him have arbitrary cut off points on what they think is OK.

[@boazchan9609]

I like to see you being involved into a drama, so that I can watch your new video more frequently

[@OCrAcIK]

I just wish they spice up ultimate fights after this drama (coping hard) because holy molly TOP is a bad fight indeed.

[@chrislee5268]

Thousands being filtered and pushed into cheating doesn't make TOP a bad fight.

[@rydil1847]

@@chrislee5268 no but the design of p5 being dogshit debuff spam makes it bad. also including probably the strictest mit plan of any ultimate bar dsr p7 (which was deleted with the introduction of 1-1-6) after 15-16 mins helps with that title.

[@tohkaxiv6162]

I do think there's an argument for TOP specifically that it's solely on the Devs for making Run Dynamis Omega the way they did, but it is pretty horrifying how blatant PF has gotten about using something that is definitely, unquestionably against TOS. But hey, at least if you do TEA it's not used at all I think?

[@FromHJH]

been raiding for 10 years in ffxiv I pretty much done everything I wanted to do in stormblood in term of ultimate and such no cheat clear and all that... now a days after Shadow bringer came out, most of the casual static I joined as a retirement all use cactbot 100% of the time, tbh I don't really care... as long i clear the content I am ok with it since I already proven everything I wanted in the game and just want to get it done asap without been in a toxic high end static

[@JLOGIAC]

I hope SE make it official for the next ultimate that is eden, for people whos competing for WF they have to stream it for it to be counted ❤😊

[@KenwickVenture]

I think marking during combat should be given the marker treatment even though I wasn't playing FF back then I heard you used to be able to use markers during combat. I'm not going to lie and say I don't use addons either I use some UI addons but even when addons are broken I have never not raided or not played the game because of addons being broken, but I am currently raiding with someone who did say they could not raid because addons were broken and my mind was also blown that people like that were real.

[@coco_milktv]

WHOMEGALUL CARES

[@passerbeta2298]

why ppl even use cheat to clear sav-ult where's the enjoyment in that. I know it's not my place but as a casual that can only play when I have time to play, I at least clear all ex trial blind prog and I can say I have more fun playing the content than rely w/ cheat also learning how to read macro and self marking is better than relying on cheat. Can't believe that ppl on twitter still have trouble reading macro and self mark lmao

[@marslara]

This only applies to ultimates. People use it in PF because they want to minimize the issue of progging with randoms. 100% in a static setting I think AM is just cheating and shouldn't be done. After doing ultimate for a bit (I actually just cleared uwu a few days ago but haven't gotten to other AM prog points in the others yet) the few parties I did without AM were cringe beyond belief. I did see someone try to use AM on meteors in DSR which is... something. Now that doesn't excuse those players for just not being required to improve but it doesn't change the fact that static vs randoms when a mechanic requires split second adjusting is totally different. Ultimates are designed for groups who are communicating not for PUG groups.. Meanwhile even in DSR people still mess up strength and meteors because they don't know how to adjust or pay attention to priority and those are the "easy" mechs to adjust for. Those people suck but personally I would rather stick to AM usage and getting not as good players through ultimate than probably get stuck having to find a static every time because PF has another filter for something I personally feel isn't a big deal. Hopefully they wait to remove marking until after I clear them all 🤣

[@glimoreganajai2206]

@@marslara UWU gaols are kinda easy without AM, its just making line of 3 people, google phase 5 of TOP, its where that problem becomes real

[@jm7468]

ok the whole zoom hack ultrawide argument is dumb AF because ultrawide does not give same POV as people believe, what these people with wider POV are using is 32:9 5120x 1440 like samsung odyseey g9 v the normal ultrawide 21:9 3440 x 1440 or lower

[@rydil1847]

lol theres literally videos showing the pov of the unnamed zoomhack side by side with an ultrawide.... until the guy from unnamed cranked it up to 11 it was the same.

[@TobinatorTx]

The devs know of course that there are people using third party tools. So they do design mdchanics in a way that you should, but not have to use third party tools. Everything is doable without, but it takes longer and most just dont want to invest that much time. I don't necessarily see a problem with it as long as it's no performance cheats or so. Like the bots doing the rotations for you, that's simply cheating, but getting auto marked is not a big deal imo

[@Lu38434]

I have to agree with Arthar's overall view on this. FF14 community need to call out AM user and avoid them. The issue I see is The raiding data became corrupted, it's unclear for SE to decide if the raid design overall is fine or not. It really hurt FF14 raiding in the long run.

[@Johan87577]

I don’t care if you use it but I agree you won’t improve, same if you 100% rely on cactbot for call-outs.

[@megataizack4531]

Player that overuse AM are coward and lazy, that don't want to learn game mechanics.

[@VncentValntine]

3:03 bruh ; - ;

[@Jahkrel]

Its straight up cheating. My static used it even on wrath of the heavens in dsr. My eyes just rolled into the back of my head. I have no pride in my clear. It feels fake and cheap.

[@rydil1847]

so you deleted your totem then right?

[@Jahkrel]

@@rydil1847 yes

[@YuriusSan]

Any third party thing that makes a fight easier is just cheating and thats more or less the end of the story.

[@Null_Experis]

Devil's Advocate: Any argument someone makes against third party programs applies to voice chat as well, since the game doesn't support it natively, it IS a third party add-on that gives an unfair advantage compared to people who don't or can't use it.

[@Null_Experis]

@@tengille Sorry but until FFXIV implements in-game chat or we have an official word that Discord is an allowed third party app, it's still breaking the rules. Also, it DOES give an unfair advantage compared to a random PF party, the ability to communicate and organize instantly faster and more precisely than chat macros. It also allows a raid leader to call out mechanics, trivializing the fight.

[@miatomi]

My argument when I’m retarded

[@Null_Experis]

@@tengille So voice chat doesn't grant any benefits to play? Even world first parties use third party tools to clear. We know this for a fact. You're not making a very good argument when you try to insult me personally either. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. It's my job to disagree and poke holes in your reasoning. If you can't stand that and it makes you angry enough to insult me, your arguments are very thin.

[@Null_Experis]

@@tengille Brother, you entered the thread I made where the first two words are "Devil's Advocate" followed by a colon. Did you think you'd get another circlejerk thread? Let me just get this straight though: You think that having voice chat in a cooperative game DOESN'T grant ANY benefits, but streaming using OBS does? Help me understand your reasoning.

[@Null_Experis]

@@tengille You're not answering my questions, and you're straw-manning. I didn't ask if they modify or read game files. I asked if they give a tangible benefit denied to people who don't use them, and that the game itself does NOT support them. You can't answer that question because you know I'm right. Automarker doesn't modify or use game files, it just marks players. You could do the same via macro. Zoomhack can give the same benefits of an ultra-wide monitor. Cactbot is just raid automated raid call outs, but somewhat faster and more accurate than a human. Using voice chat allows for communication between players that the game doesn't support. This allows for raid callouts, easier planning, and on-the-fly adjustments in voice chat. These are all tangible benefits denied to someone who isn't using it.

[@eimpty]

I’ve been raiding Ultimates since middle of shadowbringers and my experience has been dumbed down ever since AM, Simulators, and 7-man carries due to data center travel (that last ones problematic but I just feel less excited playing now because of this) My favorite experiences depended on without the “Easy shit being added” Favorites: DSR (lots of simulator tho) UWU (no cheese used at all) TOP (bc cleared b4 next savage patch, callouts in phase 6 ruined tbh ruined the clear for me tho) Meh clear: TEA (it was almost 2 years after work first. Harder Strats than now but meh) Least favorite clear: Soon to be UCOB (half of my static already cleared with AM lightnings and 7/8 plays already clearing. It’s sad that I think it’s a carry but I will say it ruins my motivation to clear with them. AM and getting carried to the clear feels so bland and it’s my least favorite ultimate prog by far)

[@kaelothsgaming8199]

Some people just want to clear the content and be done with it. That's how I am. I don't play FFXIV for the difficulty. I play for everything else including achievement hunting. Since FFXIV doesn't have real character progression, achievement hunting has become my progression.

[@oszaszi]

I love this drama, but the fact that we are still blaming people instead of the incompetence and unclear stance of SE is crazy to me. Im still on the note that if you put out gold on the streets with a sign "dont steal the gold" and setting up zero control over said gold, and expecting it will not be stolen is some next level way of thinking. I know culturally in some countries you could leave your shit on the streets like in Singapore, but how do you think that came to be? By a "pretty please, be nice" ? Hell nah... Heavy monitoring and sever punishment on all kind of shitfuckery is how...

[@Longlius]

No matter how you feel about AM, it's not long for this world simply because console players can't use it and that's really the main sticking-point for SE.

[@andrewjackson2776]

That wont matter. its never mattered. the odds of you joining an ultimate PF with only console players is so low that if AM did go away in the future that wouldn't be the reason.

[@heavensdooru]

I’ve beaten every ultimate on console and still benefited from other peoples automakers in PFs that insist on using them lol

[@F3nryl]

Why the fuck would SE care about console players not beeing able to use 3rd party tools, wtf are you talking about?

[@Longlius]

@@F3nryl SE explicitly clamps down on anything that's seen to give PC players an advantage. It's a major reason for their "no 3rd party" stance.

[@Lightwarden_Epithumia]

I don’t see the problem with it. Like if people wanna use AM and it helps them clear. Cool. If people prefer not to use AM or any add on that’s cool too. Long as no one is toxic and tryna flex shit then no harm. Or just don’t say shit

[@miatomi]

This playerbase deserves less

[@Giyari50]

The problem is, if players have to cheat to clear content, why make high end content in the first place, why should developers waste their time or money on that?

[@marvinkwon2824]

⁠@@Giyari50dunno what you are crying about, let ppl clear how they want to, why does that make the content any less meaningful. There will be ppl clearing with and without any addons. And it all comes down to ppl enjoying the content however they like. Your argument makes no sense

[@akatsuki20113]

@@Giyari50because we’re paying for it?, the fuck?

[@TheSilverwolf1001]

I mean I kinda get his argument, he is basically trying to say the Devs will have to go the retail WoW route, eventually making it to hard and pointless to do. I guess? Idk

[@FrozenPear]

Comparing zoom hack and AM is straight up pointless. Both are definitely cheats and their severity is context dependant. Zoom hack was ised for blind progging a new mechanic during Workd First race, giving infair advantage in that environment. Even though its not an official event, its still acknowledged by SE and community. AM lets you ignore parts of mechanic when you do prog with already known strats. Both are bad i environment they exist in. Saying that AM is way worse than zoom hack just because is a clown behaviour.

[@HaoyuTao]

There are far worse than AM, tell them arthars. How people in the Top 1% are using rotation bots, plugins to see mechanics before it happens, gcd hacks, boss hitbox size expanded hacks, fast cast, ping plugins to essentially make it possible to quad weave. Zoomhack, and more AM in comparison is tame to the shit i have seen. It could be worse I am just saying. These are all destructive atleast people are clearing with AM and not (M T) iykyk.

[@C.Cer.]

I just want my Hissatsu: Kaiten... why do people want all these like... Crazy things like AutoMarkers / Zoom Hacks / that Radar one? that shows AoE area affects and just excessive amounts of Raid Mods... XIV Combo... Then it's not enough right? also Modded Nudity... Why can't I just have Kaiten DX !! It's all I ask for the bare minimum !! listen!! DX please!! mhm...

[@aoiumixiv]

Either they make fights easier to the point we dont need any 3rd party tools or people will keep using it in pf in order to get their clears. It is what it is.

[@gordonjackson4040]

Arthars is getting 1-guy'd. Sane people know all 3rd party tools are cheating to varying degrees.

[@DaMrR3]

Auto markers can probably make you a better player, if you understand why certain markers are placed where they are. Just like weak auras in WoW. It's the players that use it as a crutch that make it seem like a cheat. Because those players would never be able to clear content without those markers/auras.

[@fordy5788]

AM in P9s

[@PiratePineapplez]

@@fordy5788 it was not there when prog was relevant or at least i never saw it once on what was then current patch ever

[@omensoffate]

@@fordy5788if you need am for p9s stop raiding 😂

[@euminera]

AM for P9S limit cut being a thing rn is all i need to say.

[@F3nryl]

I have 100+ reclears on this fight in pf, idk what u are talking about.

[@mintcecream777]

If SE really cared, competitive world first would be sponsored monetarily or to some degree with a reward and would be endorsed. It would be personally streamed and teams would be made and monitored/supported by SE at a competitive level. The devs wont take us or you seriously anyways, you pay box price, sub + extras and mogstation. Honestly, talking shit here, XIV should be played on console with controller, low hertz monitor, moderate to high ms lag for the intended experience lmfao.

[@wolflight9181]

AM bad! Yes you can mark yourself, it is called macros (its in the game, no cheating nor 3rd party AMAZING!!). Ultimate's is not for everyone, please stop trying to make it for everyone and learn it instead. I really hope you bring this to yoshi-p Arthurs!

[@cinavik]

Anyone using automarkers in a game designed to be fully playable, clearable, on consoles without access to automarker (assume a full console group) is just coping a skill issue. Nothing in this game requires AM. If you use AM you have skill issue. Full stop.

[@yinkirsey5450]

Haven’t did top yet but what is the mechanic am is used for? I’m just curious at this point

[@TobinatorTx]

Used for p5 because of debuff spam and specific positioning

[@yinkirsey5450]

I see, just looked up that phase. I can kinda understand why people use it in pf now if you can’t communicate fast

[@akatsuki20113]

People use it in p5 sigma and omega mostly because the debuffs are incredibly random to the point where it’s unbelievable disorganized and could cause some discombobulation, not because the mech is hard but it makes organizations annoying. He is right that people use am unnecessarily at certain parts, but am is use in very specific parts of a fight, like uwu goals, dsr Wroth and top p5 dynamis.

[@peachclementine340]

IMO if you can’t clear the fight without add ons then you shouldn’t have the clear

[@Bankai90]

ppl simply don't wanna sit in voice with randoms for every pf clear

[@glimoreganajai2206]

if u can clear it with AM u can do it without, AM isnt magic trick that makes u insta kill the boss, u literally have to know mechanic to do it with AM. All it do is marks people so its more consistent and less "ouchie" wipes.

[@peachclementine340]

@@glimoreganajai2206then do it without

[@undercoverspy123]

Cheaters will try and save face in comments here.

[@glimoreganajai2206]

@@undercoverspy123 keyboard warrior opinion is irrelevant

[@sneaky7615]

Imagine average pf clear TOP without AM.

[@sneaky7615]

I couldn't

[@nyeonii]

The reason people use cheats or helpful plugins like this is because unlike competitive games where the matchmaking places you with random people, in XIV you have to go out of your way to manually find a group on discord or PF and join. Because you chose to join their group, it feels like there is a higher expectation of you to not drag the group down. And also unlike other games, there is no casual queue function that lets you practice savage or ultimate mechanics with low stakes. Again, this doesn’t mean automarker is justified. It’s not. It is cheating. But it exists for a reason and that reason is because of the way the game’s multiplayer works.

[@shicyn]

It's not the multi-player. UWU jails has nothing to do with that. It's lack of time with too much randomness

[@nyeonii]

@@shicyn it still relates to multiplayer because the pressure to perform well is what causes people to download these programs in the first place. There is no casual way to practice ultimates within the game

[@Raionhardt]

people that use AM are cringe and bad. I report them. AM is forced onto you. its not like ACT or something that is just on your personal screen/client

[@shiro12okami69]

Tbf, in a game that heavily relies on teammates, Automarker makes the experience a lot better, since some mechanics just flat out suck. For example in Ucob if u can play on pc u have the quote solver aswell available for you. On console you have to do that on your own. Wasn’t bad to learn the quotes. However having those tool just minimize mistakes a lot. The amount of consistency and flawlessness that the game currently needs ain’t fun anymore anyway. Also Bodychecks left and right doesn’t make a game harder, just the prog worse. I know unpopular opinion but still an opinion x)

[@raijuu6137]

The egotistical NA/EU-typical way of justifying themselves by spouting one excuse after another on why it's okay for them to use AM will never get boring. I especially like the ones where they go like "I don't need them personally! it's the 7 other people that would wipe my pull and waste my time." Nah. If you can't do it then your group as a whole isn't ready and doesn't deserve the clear. These mechanics are easily solved without the usage of third party and let's not pretend like it's impossible to do in PF with suitable self-marking strats that require a minimum understanding of the mechanic itself and zero communication. The PF prog argument is merely another dishonest defense at this point, conversely many statics are just as guilty with using whatever crutch they can find to cheat their way to their clears. ffxiv has been overrun by entitled players that simply want to receive (what once used to be) prestigious loot in the easiest fashion at any cost possible. All so they can return to idling in Limsa while on lookout for their next ERP target. After all, the only thing rivaling the advertisement of AM in the Party Finder are the degens advertising Mare in their search info. In fact that brings me to the perfect alternative to yoship putting an end to ultimate production; Remove the rewards that attract these cockroaches in the first place. No weapon, no title. At best an achievement with nothing tied to it; rather keep this piece of content gatekept by the

[@chrislee5268]

World first TOP was a JP group abusing cheats and trying to hide it.

[@ampur2]

why cant people just mark themselves though? is it so difficult to learn the fight?

[@KazaarTV]

thats not how those mechanics work buddy xD

[@Bankai90]

@@KazaarTV ye it seems most ppl who have strong opinions about this haven't even done TOP

[@marioharrer9999]

@@Bankai90 and why is it so difficult to go to public discord?

[@AoyagiMei]

@@KazaarTV you don't even need markers. Everyone just needs to learn the multi layered priority system that the AM uses anyways.

[@Bankai90]

​@@marioharrer9999 I mean I'm no healer. I'm getting marked eitherway. Noone of it matters for the other 7 people. All you do is add the variable if healer can count to three 15minutes into the fight and call 2ppl out to go north/south. But I don't wanna sit for hours in potential pf clears listen to 7ppl just to hear "you north" once every 30m