Babylon 5 Newbies React to 4x8 | The Illusion of Truth | First Time Watching

Ray, Julien, and Gerard return for Babylon 5 Season 4, Episode 8! As the series continues to build momentum, this episode takes us deeper into the escalating conflict and the high-stakes decisions facing the crew of Babylon 5. With complex political maneuvers and personal dilemmas at the forefront, the tension is palpable. Our team unpacks the episode, exploring its rich themes and offering their insights. Subscribe to r Knights for more reactions to the incredible world of Babylon 5 and beyond!
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[@chrisfraser5088]

I have never been more frustrated watching B5 as I was watching this episode for the first time. The fact that it’s so realistic, hits extra hard.

[@IvarChoiEspedalen]

Hear hear!

[@johnpatz8395]

It hit hard when it was released, but the media and governments actions since this came out shows the truth in these stories

[@chrisfraser5088]

@@johnpatz8395 so true!

[@mikeal21]

An exercise in frustration this episode.

[@gallendugall8913]

"What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all." - Valery Legasov

[@pauljanetzke]

JMS was a journalist prior to doing Babylon 5, this is why this is so accurate and so prescient.

[@stevenlurati3691]

B5 did a spectacular job of finding relevance in nearly any topic, true master piece of television

[@timometsanoja9666]

This is even more relevant today than it was almost 30 years ago... This is why Babylon 5 has the fan base it has...

[@pezdispencer113]

Not really. The news has always been super manipulative and misleading. This isn't either more or less relevant, it's been the same. Fair independent sources are few and far between.

[@walkir2662]

@@pezdispencer113 The media's corporate overlords my not be are more openly in bed wih politicos now adays... it's just easier to spot them with controllable mainstream media losing marketshare. Whistleblowers like the ABC one can't just be silenced effectively anymore. (and before someone calls me a MAGAhat... I'm European, I don't really care if weirdo A or weirdo B wins, but your democratic culture dying een more is worrying)

[@SierraSierraFoxtrot]

@@pezdispencer113 If you don't think the media is worse now...

[@pezdispencer113]

@@SierraSierraFoxtrot it's about the same, people are just far more aware of it down and so are much more resistant to the bullshit. It was easier back then because what you saw on the telly is all you had to go off of. Because of that people just didn't question it. Whereas nowadays there's so many mechanisms in place to get information and to verify.

@@SierraSierraFoxtrot Look up one of the reasons for marijuana being made illegal long ago, it wasnt the drug aspect, it was some business guy who put money into a new product called Nylon that was inferior to Hemp. So since he owned/had majority shares in a newspaper he used it to put out propaganda BS about marijuana making black folk go rape white women, or making mexicans dare talk to white folk and how it would make white women go bang all of "those" sorts of people and so on. All to make people ban marijuana thus hemp, which meant now nylon was the only option left. Nothing new under the sun, Sierra.

[@darrenbabidge4694]

Brilliant reaction to this not just because of the way it played out but because of the depth of care you have now built up for the show just smashes through. Love it!

[@jeromeshaw2248]

JMS once tweeted. I wrote B5 as a warning. Not an instruction manual

Worse is too many forget, refuse to fight for either side, make our own way. Seriously I have seen right wing shit that is straight out of B5 but also I see the same shit from the Left as well. Its insane people can watch this show and still fall into the Shadow or Vorlon choice of modern politics.

[@stevecollette6831]

And you thought it was over after the Vorlon-Shadow ware was finished. hehehe

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

In the early mid 90s there was no you tube so people weren't as top of mind about clipping too.

[@Belbecat]

reactions to this episode is always gold. We all know what's coming and yet it manages to be even worse 😂

[@derekramsaroup3883]

This episode could have been made Yesterday...it is probably even more relevant today than it was in the 90s ...

In many ways it is worse than what B5 showed us, both major parties of nations like the US, UK and Australia are pulling the same Clark style BS. People really need to look at the whole Shadow war thing, do not chose their side or the other, make your own way.

[@derekramsaroup3883]

Dr Indiri was played by Henry Darrow,who was best remembered as one of the leading characters in "The High Chapparall " , one of my all time favourite TV westerns ...best known as one of the first US tv shows to showcase a Latino ensemble cast ....

[@guilhermesavoya2366]

After you finish Babylon 5, you should really watch The Expanse. Just to tell you, Babylon 5 is my favorite sci fi TV show and had no rivals in my heart until I started watching The Expanse in the pandemic. It is amazing. Great special effects, great writing, superb acting, thrilling political drama.... You need to watch it. The Expanse, and Battlestar Galactica (the reimagined series, starting with the miniseries and then the main show).

[@TheDanEdwards]

I think a couple of them have already seen _The Expanse_ .

[@pedanticperson1149]

I had trouble with this episode, I always thought it was sloppy Sheridan didn't insist on keeping a copy of the raw footage for himself, which would be a safeguard against their obvious manipulation of the footage later. Sure, it's not like he could air it on ISN, but it would have been a major concern for them knowing that he had it. I understand the point of the episode, it just seems a little silly that sure a simple precaution wasn't taken.

[@derekramsaroup3883]

I have seen B5 at least half a dozen times throughout, yet i never fail to marvel just how the writing would come up with shocks that just come out of nowhere- "The Illusion Of Truth" being a prime example ....love how you boys have become so invested in it ...just imagine having No Choice but to Have to wait another seven days for each new episode...

[@ScottRutter]

"The Illusion of Truth" 🎶 We attack each other in the press, we never print retractions 🎶 #Ham4B5

[@derekramsaroup3883]

This was a Huge win for Earth ...ISN did a major number on Babylon 5 ...

[@alexanderlee9743]

It's episodes like this that make B5 my favorite sci-fi show. It's a show that will stand the test of time. Clear enough to leave no doubt about the power and danger of unfettered propaganda, yet dethatched enough to keep from being dated to the time it was made. I know people from both political sides that see and agree what the message of this episode was. How often can a story teller create their story so well. The point is hammered in without alienating any one side hearing the message with ham fisted real world tie-ins.

[@FFXIMath]

I saw this when it came out and it's only more relevant today.

[@aaronleffew9593]

Sowing even more seeds

[@alunrundle162]

It was frustrating. But the reporter did slip something into his report for Sheridan. He reveals that Sheridan's father is still out there somewhere. And, for a clue as to what's happened with Garibaldi? We've seen that screenwash effect in 4.7 before. Figure out which episode "TARO!!!" comes from and you'll see it again.

[@rafetizer]

When you have all the reverse shots of the reporter guy it makes it simple to edit the interview however you like.

[@chrisd4228]

One of the best episodes of the whole show.

[@meropetied]

I mean, I love to hate it. I could give it 2 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10. And nothing in between. It's very good at what it does. But it absolutely pisses me off.

[@rocketeer3667]

You guys are great! I hope that you also start watching Babylon Galactica (2003-2009) er, Battlestar Galactica...

[@RKnights]

Its part of the plan

[@chrisd4228]

You heard it! They have a plan! (iykyk) 😃

[@johnw8578]

I'd like them to watch the original tv series as well.

[@rocketeer3667]

​@@johnw8578I tried rewatching it after quite a few years had passed (I liked it in its original airings) but then I saw how superficial the acting (much due to superficial directing) was, how tiresome the endlessly reused special effects shots were, etc. If you compare the acting of Richard Hatch in '78 vs '04 it's jaw dropping. Sorry but no thanks.

[@matthewteague623]

@@rocketeer3667 Yea. I will always love love love the intro theme of the 1978 BSG, but I mean, it's JOHN WILLIAMS for crying out loud. Although, one should never, for one instant, downplay Bear McCreary's works in the BSG reboot either. I put the man right up there with Christopher Franke.

[@alexanderfuog6481]

So here's the question, is the report that Sheridan's father is currently free and not in Clark's control the one important nugget of truth from the reporter? Just imagine what Clark could do if he claimed to have Sheridan's father.

[@martintoggweiler2343]

Claiming it when you didn’t really have him in custody would be counterproductive. Sheridan wouldn’t simply believe it without proof or independent confirmation, resulting in actually capturing him being less believable initially and weakening any leverage the government might want to exercise. Besides even a thoroughly propagandized population might realize something was rotten if government claimed they had captured someone and weeks or months later again claimed they had just captured the same person 🤔🤔😠😡🤬

[@Orieni]

I have been on the ground for international news events multiple times. I have never recognized the coverage.

[@JoeKawano]

Great stuff, guys! I'd love it if you guys could do a compare and contrast of this episode with the Season 2 episode: "And Now for a Word...” when ISN comes on the station earlier with a journalistic team to do a special report. 😂

[@chrism7395]

Directed by Stephen Furst (Vir)

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

People have made the comparisons to the current time several time, but the show wasn't predicting the future. As a German I can confirm what one of you said, the show is telling history. This has happened before more times than we like to admit. Or what would you call the McCarthy era? Yes, Sheridan comes over as naive, but if you think about it, President Clarke has the resources of an entire planet at his disposal, all the specialists. No matter how innocent, they could have warped it. Even if Sheridan had done more preparation, they could have simply faked the recording. Sure, they could have send out their counterpoint, but as you said it yourself, how would that have looked? I leave you with a quote: “If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.” - Attributed to Cardinal Armand Jean du Plessis, Duke of Richelieu

[@sdfried4877]

I recall watching this and knowing what parts they were going to use out of context. I wasn’t really surprised at the result. JMS had said that the propaganda was more of a look back than a look forward. The Nazi Germany analogies were there since Season 2 with Night Watch vs the shopkeeper. What amazes me is how over the top and heavy handed this stuff appeared in the 90’s and I thought “who would fall for this?” As it turns out, guide a few people. What the news media is doing now is just as heavy handed, transparently fake and patently ridiculous as anything we see here and it’s happening in nearly every first world country on the planet.

[@PassiveSmoking]

Watching this originally I knew they were going to edit Sheridan and Delenn's words for maximum negative impact. I'm honestly surprised that either of them fell for it, because as commander of a high-profile outpost I'd be astonished if Sheridan didn't get any training on how to handle the press, and as a diplomat, Delenn should be more aware of the power of words and how they can be misused than most people.

[@tjtenser7828]

I think this episode actually makes them look pretty dumb. After all they've been through with the current Earth Gov you think they'd be a lot more careful. They in a sense dig their own graves in this episode by granting that reporter an audience.

[@TheFalconerNZ]

This episode is a perfect example of how good the show was & how bad the media can be.

Not only media, but also showing being a mindless slave to one side or another is not a good thing. Left or Right, Vorlon or Shadow.... too many think their is no other way, but there is, we make our own way.

[@neilbiggs1353]

While B5 is mostly a serialised show, there are a few episodes I feel like teachers could have a fair amount of mileage in showing to classes and discussing. You have 'Believers' in season 1, 'Confessions and Lamentations' in season 2, 'Passing Through Gethsemane' in season 3 and now this one. There is so much to discuss here, particularly in terms of the US where news channels are somewhat unregulated because of the first amendment. How do you ensure that news reporting is fair, while limiting the ability of the government to dictate the news? How can you give people an ability to force corrections? Heck, I wonder if you could get a few weeks of discussion about media ethics, etc out of this 42 minutes of show...

[@rizon72]

Just remember, if you think the media you listen to isn't doing this, you are gullible.

[@pezdispencer113]

People generally don't have an issue calling out the other side's media for doing this. They just struggle to see their side doing it too.

[@CountScarlioni]

Having worked in broadcasting for two decades, including working in TV news, I can assure you that I've never witnessed anything at all like this. Could we do it? Oh yes! Would we? Not if we wanted to stay out of prison. Those with agendas driving them will certainly cherry pick soundbytes, select biased vox pops and stack interviewee decks to get the 'right' opinions. They're building narratives that they think aid or confirm whatever cause it is they're obsessed about - but this is a normal part of the information space. Everyone in modern society should be media-savvy enough to recognise the role of bias in their news sources and it's been part of the press since the first newspapers in the 17th century. Expressing an opinion, even one that is biased and stupid in its conclusions is part of a free society. Some agencies and outlets are ashamed of their biases, and do their best to minimise them. After all 'impartiality' is like perfection - an impossible state one can earnestly strive for, but will never actually achieve. What matters is that journalists and broadcasters keep believing that it's important to keep trying. Some other outlets instead proudly lean into their biases, dressing it up as righteous patriotism/activism/moralising/justice etc. or just the fact it makes them loads of money to keep particular talking points going. Such media brings shame on our society, but that's people for you. However, using post-production techniques to put words in mouths, invented testimony and constructing deliberately fraudulent narratives would be _highly_ illegal where I am in the UK (I can't comment on the US as I'm not familiar with the rules of their media regulatory bodies). Media bias is one thing, but this would go WAY beyond bias into full propaganda. One of the places I do see this level of manipulation taking shape _for real_ at present is in Russian state media. In the Russian Federation both the democratic process and the free press have expired in the past few years. Independent media sources have all been driven silent and Kremlin funded and directed propaganda channels now make up 100% of their public broadcast space. Given that this point in B5, the Earth Alliance has become a xenophobic and militarised failed democracy the parallels are quite interesting. Even down to having obviously tortured prisoners on TV reading out confessions.

[@neilbiggs1353]

@@CountScarlioni I believe that media regulation would go against the first amendment in the US, as absurd as that sounds. Look at how they've bent over backwards in the court filings to say that Trump could blatantly lie about the elections as 1A gave him that right! You can also add to that things like Tucker Carlson being defended in court with Fox's lawyers claiming no reasonable person would believe him as he was just there for entertainment. You can also look at the lack of action in regards to lies about the last election, except when private actions like the Smartmatic defamation suit have been given out of court settlements

@@pezdispencer113 Exactly, I learnt not long ago, do not trust either side, in Media or Politics. They are pretty much our Vorlons and Shadows, they dont care about us only proving they are right.

[@alexrobinson8029]

hahaha... Shits about to get real fuckin good!

[@chernobyl68]

there's the nugget of truth in the reporting, right at the end

[@RKnights]

But still, the damage is done

[@Dad.by.Daylight]

You think this was hard to watch? Just wait for S4 E18: one of my favorites in the season...

[@alexshdvideo]

No spoilers: but you may have thought the shadow conflict was tough. Buckle up buttercup.

[@Carl_Gustav_Häyhä]

I also usually skip this episode when I re-watch B5. By the way, the actor of that interviewed earth-professor was as young "Manolito" on very popular western series "High Chapparal".

[@pauljanetzke]

Hope you guys are prepared for Milton, this will be a redux of Andrew, if not worse than Andrew was. Get that gear out of the garages and board up those windows. EDIT Hope you and the guys and all your families are safe over there.

[@chaost4544]

I can't imagine the social media and youtube grifter outrage if this series premiered in the 2020's.

[@neilbiggs1353]

On the plus side, the talk about a B5 reboot gave me an easy signal for what channels to block - if they tried to decry the unmade reboot as woke, I told KZbin to never show that channel again as they clearly hasn't watched the original!

[@Tony-wj5mp]

Gerard, Julian....you both said something at 15:20 and there is a german word for such an occasion...."Backpeifengesicht". Don't try to pronounce it, just look it up😊

Thank you for that, I looked it up, hilarious and I can think of multiple politicians on both sides and media on both sides who that applies to.

[@williamreffner6542]

Just like the legacy media today

[@MrTickleTrunk]

JMS was a prophet.

[@johnpooky84]

*prophet

[@MrTickleTrunk]

@@johnpooky84 Thanks, i fixed it :) I've always been a bad speller.

[@pezdispencer113]

​@@MrTickleTrunkno this happened back then as well, it was just harder to call out. Predicting the present is not prophetic.

[@kirishima638]

Would you like to know more?

[@julienn8844]

❤❤❤❤

[@rocketeer3667]

Vote Luis Santiago in 2253 - Make the Alliance Great Again! 😃

[@johnpooky84]

Santiago was great. It was Clark that was the problem.

[@rocketeer3667]

@@johnpooky84 EXACTLY!

[@quentinmichel7581]

Love qatching you guys & B5....HOWEVER... why can't you guys properly pronounce GARRI-FLIPPING-BALDI ??????

[@RKnights]

Never going to happen. That's the name we gave him

[@edgarmartindelcampo]

I understood it as "Jerry (Doyle)-Baldy"

[@quentinmichel7581]

@@RKnights ok I guess I'm big enough to let it slide 😁

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

This was such a good fascism portrayal. At least in terms of how propaganda is done.

[@corneliusoverton2617]

Nice timing, given the 60 Minutes scandal.

[@KymPridham]

The American way

[@davidblauyoutube]

I was in college when I first saw this episode, and it made me so angry that I have never trusted "talking heads" since. Show me video, present me facts. I'm not stupid, I can make up my own mind about the world. Once you start with the spin, or pushing the agenda of your corporate masters, or bringing in "experts" to "interpret" what just happened, I'm out.

You chose your own way, like the show told us. Choose, Vorlon or Shadow..... or choose to make your own way.

[@MrFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

This episode is hella corny, but it's so goddamn prescient that it's hard to watch in 2024

[@corneliusoverton2617]

That was true of so many episodes back them. I thought them over the top. Too reminiscent of the 30s, which we were surely too sophisticated to repeat. Then 9/11 happened, we started calling ourselves the "Homeland", among many other worse things, and now we lock up political opponents (and attempt worse) and the media lies about every single story, while we're pressing for nuclear annihilation. The B5 storyline is now quaint to me, by comparison. We're more like The Expanse, if anything.

[@BandOfHarjaps]

It's done in broad strokes to make sure no audience misses the point.

[@christianmcneill699]

FWIaw This episode aired the year before Fox News was launched. JMS probably had CNN and the 24 hour news cycle in mind

[@cruelangel8689]

This is one of the rare instances where I think JMS shorted the character to serve the plot. Sheridan is too smart to fall for this and would not have let ISN have access to the station.

[@johnw8578]

Or at least watch more closely what they said.

[@Ragea77]

Denying access would easily been sold as badly as the final show, maybe even easier, all they have to say is what do B5 have to hide

[@troikas3353]

The biggest difference between what was shown in this episode and whats happening in real life is that JMS vastly over estimated how much effort Clark would even need to put into his lies. In reality he could have just jumped on ISN and screamed semi-incoherently about how the scary aliens are eating the dogs on B5.

[@RamonGil]

I'm glad you addressed this issue and started thinking about it, but let me give you an example. One of you mentioned Eisenhower as having have done what was shown in the show. I'm sorry to tell you that you bought into the propaganda as it wasn't Eisenhower who was the bad one, it was the Military Industrial Complex that together with their co-horts in the US Media made him look like he was nefarious. Same applies to what the US Media made us believe about Saddam Hussein, Khadafi from Libia and others. It's still going on and we have seen that just in the last few years with the media coverage of Trump

[@TheDanEdwards]

" It's still going on and we have seen that just in the last few years with the media coverage of Trump"

[@Grimloxz]

I’ve watched the entirety of the Babylon 5 run DURING the Bush-Iraq war years, the authoritarian cop state Trump years, and the bumbling Biden-Voldemort ally you know who authoritarian moment (years???) and found relevance in all three periods.

[@TheDanEdwards]

"and the bumbling Biden-Voldemort ally "

[@Grimloxz]

@@TheDanEdwards Ohhhhh, most definitely…

Yep too many ignore the whole Shadow War ending, chose our own way. Also I have seen Clark level crap out of both sides of Politics, hence why I refuse to vote for Major parties. I aint choosing Vorlons or Shadows, they can get the hell out of our galaxy.

[@Grimloxz]

This guy gets it…

[@ArthurFrank-ot4or]

Vote Clark in 2262 - Make Earth Great Again🙂

[@matthewteague623]

Can I vote for Roslin / Adama?

[@ArthurFrank-ot4or]

@@matthewteague623 Unfortunately no, but you can vote for the brilliant Dr. Gaius Baltar, who is ready to lead humanity to a better tomorrow. *note Dr. Baltar reserves the right to define the meaning of the words, 'lead', 'better', and all other words he so chooses.

[@rocketeer3667]

CNN took very careful notes of this episode.

[@TheDanEdwards]

"CNN took very careful notes of this episode."

[@DustinAshe-jg2wi]

This episode was modeled after CNN and others, including AP wire and NYT. Fake news is not a recent phenomenon. "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war." -- Willam Randolph Hearst, 1897. When it comes to CNN vs FNC -- "Truth is a three-edged sword; there is your side, their side, and the truth." -- Kosh Naranek, 2260.

@@TheDanEdwards Exactly, ALL OF THEM DO IT.

[@lovipoekimo176]

This episode is hard to watch every time not because it's terrible but because of the gaslighting and the blatant misinformation on Clark's propaganda front. It wrings true to this day how the truth is maleable if one lies often enough, particularly with a certain felon running for Preaident...

Yeah just ignore the Ministry of Truth crap going on by Left Wing parties, or are you telling me that Australia's Left Wing party in charge passing laws to possibly imprison people over "disinformation" and words taken in offense online, aint some Clark level shit. Rewatch the Shadow War conclusion and pay attention to what is said, since you have forgotten that both sides are using us, to prove they are right. Left or Right, either side can become Clark's EarthGov. Not to mention you clearly trust the media, as long as they say what you like to hear.

[@SierraSierraFoxtrot]

You prefer the opening to S4 over S3?! HERETIC

[@ReeveAers-rg6gx]

earth propaganda, usa usa )

[@joeychicago6436]

FOXNEWS will exist in the future too!

[@connorwatson6766]

When I rewatch Babylon 5, about once every other year, because it's that good, I skip this episode, because it makes me more angry than I care for being. It's a good episode, because if it wasn't, I wouldn't have such strong feelings about it, but it just makes me too angry.

[@jeromeshaw2248]

JMS once tweeted. I wrote B5 as a warning. Not an instruction manual

Too bad too many people chose either Vorlons or Shadows, you would think most fans would see both sides IRL are just that and the media (right or left) are no better than Clark's ISN. And don't get me started on the Ministry of Truth crap we have gotten from both sides in the last decade and a half.