Batman: The Killing Joke Adaptation - Atop the Fourth Wall

[@beermanmccool1226]

This is why Bruce Timm's best works are the same ones Paul Dini worked on. Because Dini was the only one with the spine to look Timm in the eye and tell him "No, Bruce, that's a stupid idea."

[@Maswartz226]

I feel like every Robin has said that exact thing at some point.

[@fynnthefox9078]

He helps reign in on Bruce Timm's more insane ideas. Dini was like his reality check.

[@Andy_Draws0209]

@@fynnthefox9078 Now we know why Rocksteady hired Dini to write the Batman Arkham series and not Timm, yeah yeah yeah I know it’s obvious why, but u get my point though

[@SpySecretSquirrel]

Paul was Bruce's Alfred.

[@PeterTennant]

Also Alan Burnett

[@jdpragmatic8644]

Goodbye Kevin Conroy, He might not have been the best Batman for this adaptation, but he will always be THE Batman

[@TheFLAMEXD]

I think he was the right choice for this adaptation, but the direction didn't accomodate for that.

[@nine_tails137]

Agreed. Personally I think Rino Romano would have made a better Killing Joke Batman, and Kevin Michael Richardson would have made a better Killing Joke Joker.

[@jdpragmatic8644]

@@nine_tails137 my man, Rino and Kevin were my original childhood Batman and Joker

[@nine_tails137]

@@jdpragmatic8644 Thanks, I grew up with multiple Batman series as a kid. Adam West Batman, Batman the animated series, The Batman, and yes, even the crappy live-action movies like Batman Returns, Batman Forever, and Batman and Robin.

[@yuno_gasai292]

​@@nine_tails137those actors, are my favorite versions of the character they batman to me as a kid.

[@TheFrugalVideoGamer]

The biggest missed opportunity with expanding Barbara's story for The Killing Joke film was that it put the focus on her relationship with the wrong individual. Joker didn't shoot her to get to Batman - he shot her to get to *Jim* and the story should have focused on her relationship with her father through that lens, possibly even with him picking up on the fact that she moonlighted as Batgirl like the Animated Series hinted at.

[@TheTriforceDragon]

Honestly I could easily see that angle adding very tragic element to the whole thing by showing a Jim who is worried Barbara might get hurt as Batgirl...only for her to get hurt because of her connection to him, completely unrelated to the Batgirl thing.

[@sebastianemond5313]

@@TheTriforceDragon Hell, they already kinda did a "What If..." thing with that idea of Barbara getting hurt or killed as Batgirl with 'Over The Edge', where Jim discovered Barb's identity after she was pushed off a building by Scarecrow, and thus, Gordon went after Bruce and the Bat family in revenge. Yes, it was all a Fear Toxin induced nightmare from Batgirl, but still though, it focused on Jim's reaction to Barbara's connection to Batman, and how badly Jim could lose himself to the abyss like Joker intended in this story.

[@CouchSpud91]

Combine this with the idea of her using her future Oracle abilities by tracking Joker down via her tech skills while still bedridden would have vastly improved the story. Doubly so if her response to the crippling was sheer utter determination rather than breaking down from it, only to be explored later as PTSD.

[@EliDEVITTSpeaks]

It was in the hands of azzarello and timm. Batgirl content was doomed from day 1.

[@XX-sp3tt]

For me at least, how utterly pointless and cruel Barbara was getting shot was the point, because the Joker is trying to prove how pointless and cruel everything is. If he knew Barbara was Batgirl... it would give him concrete REASON he targeted Barbara in particular... When Joker is trying to convince EVERYONE that there is no reason for any of this!

[@bluestar2059]

"It was very fascinating to explore that angle." - Bruce Timm. Except... you didn't explore it. Say what you will about the Barbara/Bruce relationship, because there is an interesting story to be had about a messy relationship (even if I think that story probably shouldn't be told with these two characters), but they didn't really explore how messy and complicated such a relationship was, did they? Barbara moans a bit about not having sex with Bruce, she has sex with Bruce, gets ghosted, fights with Bruce again, and gets shot. There's no "exploration" of this, not time dwelling on the details of this relationship, the good or the bad. It just... happens, and then we move on. So even the stated goal of the thirty minute "'prologue" isn't achieved, making it even more pointless.

[@hypno-scream5652]

We did get a funny shot of a gargoyle being forced to watch and looking horrified of it, so there’s that.

[@daliborjovanovic510]

Exactly. You don't need to be a professional writer to see that the making of the movie version of The Killing Joke was half-assed and no real thought was put into changes or the "prologue", they just made up crap on the fly to pad out the runtime.

[@spideyguy3315]

Why was it even an idea they had in the first place? It's like the Spider-Man Sin Past of thr DC Universe, except it's a good guy who's bagging his son's girl who's old enough to be her father.

[@daliborjovanovic510]

@@spideyguy3315 As far as I can see, the only reason for its existence is that Bruce Timm has this bizarre fixation on BrucexBarbara and Brian Azzarello is, to put it mildly, an edgelord ("It's controversial, so we added more controversy. Wanna say that again, pussy?") I mean, those two quotes of his give a pretty clear picture of what was going on through his head when he wrote it XD

[@spideyguy3315]

@@daliborjovanovic510 Yeah and it's almost as worse than the Norman and Gwen arc story, just don't understand the reason of Timm wanting us to feel the relationship between Bruce and Bab. Cuz they feel more like family.

[@grantmoore8228]

What's funny is that Mark Hamill DID do a good adaptation of The Killing Joke. It was called Batman: Arkham City. In that game, you can unlock audio tapes of Doctor Strange holding a therapy session with the Joker. In those tapes, you hear him give a pretty detailed explanation of what happened in his "past" that made him into the man he is today. It was basically a giant summary of the backstory from the book. Hamill did a great job with the performance and even had the Joker break character when it was appropriate. I personally blame poor voice direction in regards to Kevin and Mark's performances in this movie. I can easily see the person in charge going "eh, you know what you're doing. Just read these sentences in your usual voices and we'll try and use your best take..."

[@Rabbitlord108]

Sad that *SPOILERS FOR THE ENDING OF ARKHAM CITY* They came up with an excuse to have Joker be in Arkham Knight as a hallucination.

[@fynnthefox9078]

Right? Kevin and Mark were amazing in Knight, which came out a year before this garbage.

[@MoonShadowWolfe]

Booting that back up, going to pour some time into earning that myself.

[@thelonelion]

I forgot about Hugo Strange for a second and thought there was some secret Marvel cameo in the game

[@coryspang7548]

​@@thelonelionSame, lol

[@joshpearson2928]

I need someone to do a cut when Linkara says "I'm kind of a weirdo", pauses, and just cuts straight to end credits"

[@artistwithouttalent]

"Atop the Fourth Wall but interest was quickly lost"

[@mlovecraftr]

"Have you ever seen me without this hat? That's weird." -Linkara

[@gaminggalaxies6633]

On it. Edit: I made that into a video, I do not apologize.

[@gaminggalaxies6633]

@@JohnGaltAustria Wat

[@alexandersturnn4530]

@@gaminggalaxies6633 Just ignore him. He's probably just another OneyPlays Fan who's butthurt because Linkara doesn't worship the Ground his great God and Saviour walks on.

[@aarengabriel8106]

The sex scene is so incongruent with what came right before it. Like, Batman and Batgirl were arguing like an overprotective father and his daughter. It makes everything that came after even more disgusting and baffling.

[@Rabbitlord108]

Makes me think the person who approved that part liked Rise Of Arsenal.

[@yuno_gasai292]

That scene was weird

[@andorchadas7407]

"What we've gotta do, Joker is show you a GOOD DAY in order to fix you! Come on we're at the amusement park!" Okay, who else wants to see that? Joker all tied up and restrained, surrounded by the Batfamily? Robin, Batgirl and everyone else having fun with Batman remaining stoic and intense. Joker trying to resist, trying not to have fun. Saying stuff like "you'll live to regret this, Batfreak!" and him trying to kick back as he's force-fed cotton candy? "N-No! Nooo!! It's so tasty!"

[@evanbao93]

I have to admit, that would be Joker's worst nightmare. Hahahahahahaha!

[@mitchfletcher2386]

Now THERE'S an interesting story!

[@muratalekic6965]

Honestly I would love to see something like that to happen. It’s just sounds like a fun story

[@theruoc147]

@chuckschaaff yeah I always wished they did more with the Jokester, or the couple other heroic jokers we’ve seen over the years. Have them meet each other and maybe one tries to help the original.

[@jamesadamsfl]

Reminds me of the Justice League Action episode where Batman and Superman switch their usual “Good cop/Bad cop” roles, and Batman scares the crap out of Deadshot by offering him coffee and a donut.

[@BronzeBoy520]

The real villain of Linkara and his battles against the most evil forces in the universe… KZbin

[@scrappydoo8761]

Clearly

[@Andy_Draws0209]

Agreed

[@zimattack9994]

Those off screen battles are the stuff they write songs about

[@mikegates8993]

The real question, is KZbin connected to Ancient Egypt in any way?

[@Andy_Draws0209]

To quote Kevin Conroy “What did u call it Clark? The Neverending Battle.”

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

The TAS episode about Harley Quinn's parole is an excellent answer and counter-argument to this whole comic. She struggles to adapt to civil society, she really tries but things go against her and her patience is already thin after everything so she lashes out. And despite that Batman buys her the dress she tried to get, because as he said "I had a bad day once". One bad day, and that is why Batman is trying to help others and prevent the same thing from happening to him. THAT is why he is the opposite of the Joker.

[@a.dennis4835]

Except the Joker's point is that any sane person would become insane "after one bad day". Harley already had pre-existing issues due to her lengthy history with the Joker so this statement doesn't apply to her.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

@@a.dennis4835 And the point is that Joker is full of crap. He's trying to rationalize his own choices and defects. Batman had his bad day. Its why he's Batman. But what is Batman? Batman is a hero, he's a decent and often times kind person who tries his best to better his community. Can he be grim and dark? Sure. But at his core he's that same injured child, striving to make sure there are no other injured children...if he can help it. Joker had a bad day sure, but the question was never the day, but what he did afterward. Everyday Joker could make different choices. And everyday, he makes the same broken ones.

[@a.dennis4835]

@@LupineShadowOmega Also, the comic version implies (but never outright states) the Joker already had pre-existing issues, which further undermines his point.

[@plantainsame2049]

This comic is against the one bad day Commissioner Gordon stays Is on the side of the angels? The whole point is that the joker is wrong

[@RaphBlade7]

Gotta agree that episode with Harley is an excellent example of why the Joker is wrong and we know she got her act together thanks to the Nanna Harley reference by the Dee Dees in Return of the Joker (the Dee Dees being her twin granddaughters who are Jokerz Gang members that work for Mr. J & later returned in Justice League/Batman Beyond time travel crossovers)!

[@jamesmason7979]

"Cripple the bitch." If I were a writer and my editor told me that, I'd reconsider that plot point.

[@kramermariav]

And where I worked

[@michaelsantamaria5295]

The context of the story was that Alan Moore kept bothering Len through out the book's creation and when the editor was taking a vacation with his family Moore still kept bringing up the work to the point that Len was kinda done at that point saying the line but again that one story and like thousands others as the only evidence of him actually saying it is from Alan Moore who yeah we can say was a bit bias at this point

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Same. That’s just so… crude!

[@SuperWolsey]

@@michaelsantamaria5295 Wein wasn't all fond of Babs. Plus when Wein was editing both Detective and Batman, she was either out of suit or nowhere to be found. Especially when the focus of the period being Nocturna, Vicki, and Selina plus Julia (and the occasional Talia appearance). All of which being after Detective #526 the very last time we see Babs in action as Batgirl

[@ElJorro]

The sad part is Mark Hamill really wanted to do the Killing Joke.

[@fynnthefox9078]

Just not like this.

[@somerandolad]

You know it's bad when Linkara is giving a better Joker performance than Hamill.

[@kingofthegundam7974]

If they wanted to add more to Barbara's character (without changing the story in any way), an epilogue detailing how she recovered from the night she was shot and becoming Oracle would have been more thematically appropriate than the prologue, since the story was about how one bad day doesn't define you for the rest of your life. With a name like Paris Franz I'm surprised he wasn't a french supervillain... WHY CAN'T WE HAVE NICE THINGS!!! I think a review mentioned part of the movie's problems is that while it's faithful, it doesn't do anything to make the story feel more cinematic, like using interesting camera techniques or animation quirks to bring it to life. I think I can agree.

[@SudrianTales]

Having her meet up with the Birds of Prey would've been a better use of that time.

[@kingofthegundam7974]

@@SudrianTales Maybe the Birds of Prey, Gordon and/or Batman are involved in the recovery process?

[@SudrianTales]

@@kingofthegundam7974 there, we already found a better use for that time.

[@ryanschrafel9576]

You’re in luck! There’s a story in The Batman Chronicles #5 from 1996 called Oracle: Year One - Born of Hope that is exactly what you described. It picks up immediately after The Killing Joke leaves off.

[@mistertea603]

I like that much more than the idea of a prologue, I tried thinking of different ways to do it but none of them are better than that.

[@matthewtrujillo7228]

I was considering snagging the patreon spot to get a review of the Joker book but I don't think I need it anymore, you explained the issues with it better than I could have. Honestly the one moment where it really hit the mark was Two-Face's line, "He will stand over your body with your blood on his hands and I promise you he will laugh... Not because your life means nothing to him, but because death, for him, is the punch line."

[@ThorgisArcade]

I love that when he says "I'm kind of a weirdo" the cat looks up like "Yeeeeeah."

[@AT4W]

Ha! Yeah. XD Also: Hi, Professor Thorgi!

[@batman200]

@@AT4W What voices did you imagine for these versions of these characters. when you were saying these aren’t the voices that fit the killing joke versions.

[@Optimegatrongodzilla]

@@AT4W No, no, no! You've got it all wrong! Friday is Batday, Saturday is Batday Returns, and Sunday is Batday Forever!

[@partymantis3421]

@@AT4W Two mighty giants of gaming and Comic nerd culture respecting each other. Beautiful to behold

[@gracekim1998]

I swear the cat ducks out of frame 😂

[@MegaBichiX]

the fact that Hammil was asked to say the lines in multiple cons and he always does a fantastic job that sounds completely opposite to what we got here only tells me that he was restrained by the directions he was given. You can just find him doing the monologues and they sound a lot better that whatever the hell we got

[@eon1014]

In Alan Moore’s defense, he DID say that he regretted what happened to Barbara in this story and he regrets making the Joker shoot her. So at the very least, Moore is self-aware.

[@johnathonhaney8291]

In this instance...in others, like the ghastly Neonomicon, less aware, I promise.

[@eon1014]

@@johnathonhaney8291 What happened in the Neonomicon? I’ve never heard about it before watching this video.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@johnathonhaney8291 I read that other day... Christ the dude is more obsessed with rape than a Japanese hentai artist.

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@li-limandragon9287 what is neonomicon

[@backtoklondike]

@@jadenbryant9283 It's basically Moore writing Lovecraftian horror but he goes into even more details then Lovecraft ever did including a very infamous rape scene.

[@gennybaratta2460]

Mark Hamil is an amazing voice actor (and actor in general) so I’m more inclined to lean towards poor/mishandled voice direction. For example Firelord Ozai is as equally terrifying as his Joker but in entirely different ways. When watching Avatar I never think ‘oh he’s just doing the Joker but as a genocidail dictator’ you know.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

I actually always hear the Joker in Firelord and never liked his voice for it.

[@eamonndeane587]

Avatar: The Last Airbender was voice directed by Andrea Romano, the same woman who directed the voice work for the Majority of the DCAU. Wes Gleason's work as a Voice director is really hit and miss in my opinion (with this film being one of the worst examples of his ADR work). A Better example of his work would be The Justice League: Gods and Monsters Chronicles Shorts (Romano directed the voice work for the Main film).

[@backtoklondike]

Plus from what I've understood, Mark Hamill was still in the middle of shooting the last jedi when they recorded this but allowed him to leave to record this. Either that or it was in post-production but shortly before reshoots (which actually is pretty common for movies to do and not indicative of a movies quality as a sidenote). But in any case, they weren't going to be able to keep him for that long so there was no time to do that many retakes or for Hamill to properly get into the role. Hence why the voice acting seems kind of off. How that explains Kevin Conroy's performance though, IDK.

[@estebangutierrez160]

The force was not strong with this one.

[@seekingabsolution1907]

Never realised Hamil did the voice of Ozai.

[@Some_Guy_In_Ohio]

Linkara: Bruce Timm has a red-head fetish in general, it's not just Barbara\Batgirl. Look at the way he shoehorned Lana in whenever he had a chance in Superman, Hawkgirl in Justice League, making Kal-El's wife a redhead when he adapted "Man Who Has Everything' (clearly a blonde in comic), turning Wonder Woman into a redhead when he did the AU where Superman is Hispanic and Batman a vampire, and so on and so forth.

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

Hawkgirl get to have an awesome finale and redemption

[@pokemaster123ism]

At least with all those shoe-hornings they were justified in the story. Hawk girl was awesome in Justice league and it was cool to see a more obscure character get screentime, and Gods and Monsters was an AU so who cares what they look like

[@billymccrary2246]

Wander why he didn't do a Spider-Man cartoon, cause yeah, Bruce Timm doing a Spider-Man or any animated series based on Marvel Comics characters would've been interesting and cool to see when you really think about? So anyway, if Bruce Timm has a red-head fetish, he would've had done characters with red-head like Mary Jane Watson, since Lana Lang in the DCAU is somewhat similar to her in some ways, just saying, Jean Grey, Mystique, Harry Osborn, Pepper Potts, Firestar, Black Widow, Carnage, Banshee, etc. and etc..

[@cannoliwavestudios2817]

Barbara giving up on being Batgirl makes her becoming Oracle a lot less inspiring, and it makes the narration “I really was done with that part of my life” make a lot less sense. In the comics, she became Oracle because she didn’t want to stop fighting crime. But here, she just gives it up. If this movie really wanted to do her Justice, they could’ve had her being in love with her Batgirl persona, rather than Batman. Or even better, show how much she loves her father. Any of these would’ve been better than what we got

[@samflood5631]

Well Barbara gave up being Batgirl after Supergirl died during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[@li-limandragon9287]

To me Barabra is as close as a daughter to Batman, she literally spends more time with him than her actual father Jim in the comics. So seeing their bond degraded to "She wants to sleep with him" is so gross and insulting. It would be the same as having Bruce bone Dick, Tim or Jason out of nowhere.

[@ironmaster6496]

that's a a batman rule apparently: ALL the women should be attracted to him and just him doesnt matter if they are younger than him or had othe rlove interests it's just batman's harem (sadly the great lego batman movie did this too) and Robin should always be a pathetic idiot who's useless and hted by everyone esepcially dick grayson

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@ironmaster6496 I don’t think that’s necessarily always true, shows like The Batman, Young Justice or even the edgier Titans don’t have female young protégés lusting after Bat-cock or treat the Robins as losers especially not Dick Grayson. The comics certainly don’t have Batman boning Barbara, Cassandra, Stephanie or Huntress. I think the problem with Killing Joke, the DCAU Batman stuff and to a lesser extent Lego Batman (it’s a one-sided attraction from Batman there) is they’re all too focused on the Silver Age era where Batgirl was older and Robin was just a little brother figure to her. There was no sex between Batman and Batgirl back then, but like a lot of female characters she had a crush on him and in one comic wanted to kiss him but Wonder Woman thank christ got there first. It was just dumb 50s-60s horny camp that should have no bearing in the modern tellings, Mr Fantastic being a sexist asshat to his wife Sue and Spider-Man being Ayn Rand wannabe are things that stayed dead and BatmanXBatgirl should too. We don’t acknowledge Bruce and Dick’s bond as homoerotic nowadays because their relationship has grown enough to be seen as purely paternal, Bruce is and should be the same.

[@sashawolfson3602]

I can agree with you entirely, I thought Barbara and Batman is more like a Father and Daughter Relationship

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 At least in the Lego movie it’s one sided on Batman’s part. If was truly a call back to the Silver Age comics in a different Batman and Batgirl story, I’d be more accepting even if I didn’t like it. Here it’s just out of nowhere and unnecessary and only exist because Bruce Timm has a fascination with BatmanxBatgirl and went as far as to remove Dick Grayson from the equation just so it can happen.

[@cartooncritique6625]

Certainly doesn't stop weirdos from shipping Bruce with his surrogate sons online.

[@wolfmantheimpaler]

I'll say it once and say it again: No good *EVER* comes from Bruce and Barbra getting together, the stories always suffer from it. And before anyone brings up Batman Beyond, but the two of them have broke up, they weren't together or gonna get together

[@kimifw58]

Yeah, that relationship barely affected anything in Beyond. It could have been written out easily.

[@wolfmantheimpaler]

@@kimifw58 at most, it highlighted how much Bruce emotionally cut himself off from everyone, but like you said, cut it out and it'd hardly change anything beyond some dialogue and a scene where Bruce is looking at pictures of former romantic partners

[@jonahfalcon1970]

@@kimifw58 Have a problem with older woman and younger women?

[@kimifw58]

@@jonahfalcon1970 ?

[@omegamaximus1727]

I am not a big fan of the whole Bruce and Barbers love relationship because they in different in terms of age.

[@Gojiragon]

I wrote this in the ORIGINAL comment section, but it bears repeating here as it’s kind of important to how this thing exists. I had a revelation… a disgusting revelation as to WHY the prologue is the way it is. It just hit me that not in ANY of the interviews did the creators mention that they wanted to “fix“ the story. That was only assumed, given everything. What was said was only about “adding” something to it. What I’m saying is that I don’t think they were trying to fix the shooting… I think they were trying to JUSTIFY the shooting AND her turn as Oracle. They deliberately broke her character to make the shooting… “earned.” “No, see, she NEEDS to stop because she’s a thrill seeker that doesn’t know any better, and Batman is the only one who can fill that “desire”.” This to me fits in with why Brian Azzarello said he wanted to add “more controversy.” Just awful.

[@battlion507]

Azzarello, yet ANOTHER creator who fan wanked over Moore's EARLY work and fell into the likes like Mark Millar... and unfortunately, while Millar likes Superman, Azzarello considers Supes as "the biggest punching bag of comics."

[@Kentrc11]

You're just making yourself upset. Linkara said it in this review: It was Alan Moore's idea to cripple Barb, Lein ran with it since they had NOTHING planned for Barb, then Kim Yale & John Ostrander's disgust of having NOTHING planned for Barb lead to the Oracle continuation.

[@TECH097]

@@Kentrc11 Well the comment isn't saying that wasn't what happened. It's saying (at least I THINK it's saying) that in order to make the story more about Barbara to justify the trauma she goes through in the story, that way it feels less unnecessary and she has a sense of an arc to develop by the end of it, they decided to BLAME Barbara for rash impulsive decisions, as if to say "if you had the function of your legs you'd never be oracle, just a brash and blunt risk taker" instead of emphasizing the fact that even if as Oracle she does a great job, she also did a great job as Batgirl.

[@Kentrc11]

@@TECH097 Barb got the trauma of losing her legs AFTER she quit being Batgirl due to nearly killing Paris France. Barb losing her legs is apart of Joker's twisted plan to make Jim Gordon insane by hurting Barbara Gordon & has no connection to Batgirl.

[@TECH097]

@@Kentrc11 Yes but as far as I know Paris was a character made SPECIFICALLY for the movie, to add Story for Barbara. I didn't read the graphic novel but from what I get, Barbara QUITTING being Batgirl was an invention of the movie, never a plot point in Original Story. If anything the implication is she still operates as batgirl but that's over and done with after The Joker shoots her. In the case of the movie, even if Barbara quits being batgirl because she nearly killed a man...that still kinda weighs into the original comment's point. That they wrote Barbara as someone who was wreckless as Batgirl to justify her being paralyzed as Oracle. SURE, Barbara retires being Batgirl to redeem herself and prevent herself from going TOO far, but they still actively decided to write Barbara as irresponsible enough to GET to that point. That and yes, the target of Joker's plan is to torture Jim. But because of that he's using Barbara as a prop, something that the Original Book did as well, it's just that here, the side story made for the movie emphasizes that Barbara made impulsive decisions that caused her to quit being Batgirl, instead of the book not really implying that she had retired as batgirl from what I understand (again I could be wrong and I'm willing to admit that). Basically, this lines up with the original comment saying "it's very possible they did this to justify Barbara needing to be paralyzed to grow as a person, instead of writing an adaptation where Barbara say, actively tries to help Batman behind the scenes to show she can still be helpful without her legs. Not saying it HAS to be it just, clearly one addition does more to improve her character compared to the source material than the other.

[@rabnerd28]

11:55 Hey! You forgot that she's also his son's girlfriend in most continuities.

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

Yes, I know some people find Barbara and Nightwing/Robin a weird pairing as apparently they are supposed to have a brother/sister type relationship...but its way more acceptable than a pairing with Batman. They're much closer in age, are on equal footing, didn't grow up together/aren't related so aren't as much like siblings as people like to make out...if they wanted to give Barbara a romantic thing in The Killing Joke why not include Dick Grayson? Maybe have Batman be the same controlling douche bag he is being in this but have it be over them being romantically involved when they are supposed to be working partners, or that relationships don't work with a secret identity whatever just stop putting Barbara with Batman already.

[@tunafour-shoes4618]

I belive a reason Alan Moore is so adamant about superheroes, is somewhat because he wants to distance himself from the toxic fan-boys of his work.

[@galactic85]

Well considering how many people embraced Rorscach as a "hero" I don't blame him.

[@sebastianemond5313]

Can you blame him after the backlash League of Extraordinary Gentlemen got? Alan Moore: "Look, I just wrote the damn books. Connery was the one who decided to go Tom Cruise/The Mummy (2017) on the production!" FYI, RIP, Sean Connery. No disrespect.

[@brandonlyon730]

@@sebastianemond5313 Didn’t Connery quit acting after how bad the production of that movie (and the movie itself) was?

[@sebastianemond5313]

@@brandonlyon730 Yeah, both him and Stephen Norrington from Blade (1998). But again, Connery demanded half the budget for his paycheck to be in the movie.

[@jabaribloodbane]

Well, you also got to remember Moore is not the first person that DC pissed off. I would think it's more Moore was treated than the fans. Of course, fans can be a issue. But remember Marvel has done the same crap to people. So yeah sometimes a company will be dumb asses towards their staff.

[@darkhelmet87]

I imagine a version of this story where joker tries to drive Gordon insane by forcing him to watch bad movies. While Jim fights against it by using tips Barbara taught him to reprogram some carnival robots Joker: next up, Basil Karlo and Rita farr in "lobster men from Venus"!!

[@joneau261]

Wasn’t that the plot for MST3K?

[@darkhelmet87]

@@joneau261 that's a reference yes

[@mitchfletcher2386]

It's GOTHAM SCIENCE THEATRE 3000!

[@gregcourtney751]

Now I what to hear Mark Hamil say "We'll send him cheesy movies. The worst we can find." In his joker voice.

[@SiRenfield]

I’d read the hell out of that. Also permission to steal that bad movie idea for a fan fic? 😂

[@MountC]

One other thing that's awful about Batgirl and Batman having sex is that it's completely unnecessary from a narrative standpoint. You could cut that scene out completely, and the story could easily continue how it already did. The consequence of Batgirl and Batman having sex was that Batman cut off communication with Batgirl. But there was already an interaction that could have that exact same consequence; Batgirl disobeyed an order from Batman. That alone could have been enough for Batman to cut off communication with Batgirl. Also, I actually think the adaptation of the ending DOES add fuel to the theory that Batman killed the Joker; At the very end, Batman is the only one still laughing. This could imply he's the only one left out of the two of them to still laugh.

[@cooperross9495]

Linkara actually does a really good Mark Hamill Joker impression.

[@512Nikc]

Bruce Timm always wanted to push Bruce and Babs as an item, he (kind of) did it in his comic book run but since that was a very niche audience and it didn't carry over into Batman Beyond one could say it caused no harm. He only managed to hint at it in BTAS, but almost everyone in the audience took it as an unrequited teenage crush from Barbara. What made us suffer through his fanfic being realized is that those other times I mentioned he probably worked with people with enough common sense to convince him not to do it, but this time he not only got a green light, his coworkers enabled him and pushed him to do it. Also, with a rogue gallery as vast and interesting that Gotham has, an OC with the idiotic name of Paris Franz is the one that almost pushed Batgirl too far? Hell! Have a lesser known Batman villain into the mix instead. How about Dr. Pyg or Humpty Dumpty? They're kind of obscure but boundary pushing enough to crack Barbara and making her punch them to an inch of their lives without taking the spotlight from the Joker.

[@sdm47]

Or killer moth. The villain she fought in her debut comic way back in the silver age Could even serve as a parallel, batgirl went to far with her nemesis leading Batman to fear that he might go too far with his

[@TheZipding]

You can still have Barbara become Oracle without her being paralyzed. She chooses to retire from active crime fighting and decides to help others as Oracle.

[@gregorymelissinos337]

You can have her be paralyzed without being sexually assaulted. Young Justice just did an episode where she stopped Cassandra Cain from killing the joker and lost the use of her legs for it.

[@xgray2012]

Thank you!!! That is what I have been saying. There are far better ways to have Barbara Gordon become Oracle without having to lose the use of her legs.

[@burr_ell]

The problem with that is that now Barbara has had 20 years of being excellent disabled representation. This story was horrible to her, no question, but there's no reason why Barbara Gordon shouldn't be a disabled wheelchair user now that she's been disabled rep and DC took it away for ableist reasons. I think Barbara should be a wheelchair user; if the problem is that The Killing Joke was bad, then DC should change or retcon that story, not take away disabled rep from an already limited pool. I mean, sure, go back in time thirty-five years and change it so she doesn't get paralyzed, and you could still make that point. But now after she's been disabled and still a capable fighter and information broker with connections all over the DCU? Removing her disability at this point is ableist, whether benevolent or not.

[@xgray2012]

@@burr_ell In other words, just the Killing Joke into an interactive movie where the viewers can decide how they want the story to end. Just like the animated movie adaptation of Batman: Death in the Family.

[@jakeproven256]

The older I get, the less I like Barbra being oracle, I mean, I'll tolerate it when reading comics that take place during that era, and even in the arkham games, but it's origin and how strong she is as Batgirl makes me not care for her being oracle anymore.

[@benwasserman8223]

So as a palate cleanser, I'd recommend everyone read Batman: Wayne Family Adventures. It actually treats the bat-team like a lovable dysfunctional family unit (yes, even Jason) but does so while paying homage to their better comic moments and NOT making everyone too brooding, dour, whiny or sexually awkward. Why can't the comics do more stuff like that?

[@battlion507]

Because a story like that is NOT TMZ level debauchery or Hallmark "drama" llama.

[@sebastianemond5313]

Alcohol *is* the palate cleanser. And much like Superman's kiss from Superman 2, the mind eraser.

[@mst3kharris]

Because then people would enjoy reading them! …Wait.

[@alexandersturnn4530]

Jesus Christ, thank you for directing me to that Comic! I NEEDED it.

[@jamesadamsfl]

I binge read all 24 chapters last night. Thank you! Thank you so much!

[@darrengaroutte7744]

I always thought that the crippling of Batgirl in the killing joke could have been used toward the evolution of the batsuit into what we saw in batman beyond. That Bruce wanting to fix things for his friends would pour resources into finding a way to help Barabra regain the use of her legs eventually succeeding and that tech was used in the beyond suit.

[@SchazmenRassir]

If we're lucky, this one will finally get to stay without KZbin screwing you over again. The big problem for me regarding Joker's message about "one bad day" is that... he's technically not wrong. Just HOW bad a day has to be is one thing. But his own bad day had a lot of randomness, unexpected events, and nobody specific to blame. What he did to Gordon, though? Sure, it was a bad day for Jim. But Joker was personally responsible for all of it. That wouldn't drive a guy insane overall, it'd just make him pissed off at Joker.

[@christopherb501]

Indeed. Would have been way more effective if it had all come off as chaos, and not directly and clearly the intent of a singular figure.

[@dani2190]

Agreed.🐻

[@SchazmenRassir]

@@christopherb501 Exactly. For Joker, it was EVERYTHING that went wrong and against him, and he reached his breaking point. If Gordon had snapped, he wouldn't've gone insane. He'd have killed Joker and then... either continued working to help Barbara financially, or retired to take care of her physically.

[@jacks7852]

I don't think it particularly matters what the source of the bad day is, what matters is that Gordon comes out of it unbroken. After all I think you could just as easily take the position that it was more powerful because what Gordon experienced showed just how easily one person can destroy another and just how horrible another human being can be. That could be seen as much more impactful to some people.

[@Metrion77]

He IS wrong though. Joker's response when confronting the meaninglessness and injustice of the world is to embrace it as a nihilistic messiah who sees it as his job to make everyone see the universe as a bad joke. Gordon could go crazy and commit suicide. He could become unresponsive or catatonic. He could detach from reality and see hallucinations. He could pathologically grapple onto a pre-existing belief system like religion or magic. Heck, Batman HIMSELF is meant to be an example of how "going crazy after one bad day" turns him into an antisocial vigilante with a pathological need to exact justice.

[@Blokewood3]

8:42 "Oh crap! Uh...I'm pretty sure he was a fan of Rock and Roll!"

[@alexiaNBC]

The behind the scenes aspect of both the comic and the adaptation are quite sickening when it comes to what happens to Batgirl. Len Wein's "Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch" comment and Bruce Timm's terrible excuses for the sex scene just make either form of the Killing Joke very exploitive and detrimental to an otherwise popular superheroine.

[@michaelsantamaria5295]

i don't really put too much venom on Wein because as it story goes (as much Alan Moore can be credited) the "Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch" was due to the fact that Alan Moore kept bothering Len through out the book process and by the time Len was going to to leave on a vacation with his family Alan Moore reach out to him for permission

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@michaelsantamaria5295 still a werid thing to say

[@ericwhite1942]

In session 4 of Young Justice, we get a alternative that Barbara's paralyzed comes from her taking a hit from a young Cassandra Cain to keep her from killing the Joker to keep her from becoming a murderer. Don't know if that's good but it's definitely better in my opinion

[@DarkKnightofAnime]

Honestly this movie feels like the antithesis to what happened with Gotham by Gaslight: both had movie adaptations where the source material needed to be expanded upon to fit the run time of a film but only one felt like it knew how to use the expanded runtime to its advantage while also just having a better animation style to accompany it (GBG having an animation and art style that Reminded me of the 2004 The Batman Cartoon) And granted as Linkara said Killing Joke is already flawed in itself whether it’s adapted into a film or not but I think there really could’ve been more done with it to make the story better or as better as it could be given the source material

[@sebastianemond5313]

I actually considered Gotham By Gaslight a better adaptation than The Killing Joke, not that I don't find The Killing Joke a classic Batman/Joker story.

[@ToHoldNothing]

Didn't GBG also include elements of the sequel? I didn't even realize that until looking over the film a second time last year. This doesn't have any kind of sequel, but it had potential to give Barbara more agency and failed miserably in that element

[@DarkKnightofAnime]

@@ToHoldNothing ya I think the film was a hodgepodge of both GBG and little bit of Batman: Master of the Future while still being it’s own thing, you could really say it’s a very loose adaptation

[@pedanticat9479]

I need to read Gotham Gaslight but I really enjoyed the movie

[@sebastianemond5313]

@@DarkKnightofAnime Didn't Justice League: Gods & Monsters and Superman: Red Son do a similar thing, even though in Red Son, Superman had faked his death to become Clark Kent, similar to Metro Man in Megamind, so he could be a musician, Music Man?

[@Neo232100]

This has been said in the original video, but I feel it needs to be said again: I personally tend to be excited/cautiously optimistic when I find out that there are adaptations to stories, comic, video games, books, or other media that I love, because I feel that the adaptation gives the story that I love the opportunity to find a larger audience, that someone will see that adaptation and want to experience more of that story. It happened with me Via Batman: Under the Red Hood, and Superman vs The Elite, I had never read those comics, but those movies gave me a genuinely enjoyable experience, convincing me to look more into comics and Super Heroes. I honestly just want to give people the opportunity to see these stories I love. This adaptation though...misses the mark.

[@randallflagg3700]

Same here! Adaptations allows us to have discussions about the story with waaaay more people than before, and it's a real blessing when you enjoy debating comic books stuff with strangers online, or with friends who aren't quite as deep in the fandom at you are and mostly watch the adaptations instead of reading comics. Another thing I enjoy is watching some of my favorite characters who never made it outside the comics finally get a voice, or in the case of live action adaptations (for instance, the infamous *Crisis on Infinite Earths* crossover from the _Arrowverse_ ), seeing actors I enjoy playing those charas for the first time Plus, I'm one of the 7 people who actually look forward to the changes they'll make to the OG story, like how, in the DCAMU movies (which has now ended, but while it was still on it was a different universe than the "classic" one... just as a small example, Deathstroke was a member of the LOA and supposed to be Ra's successor, which was brought up again in "Teen Titans: The Judas Contract") like "Hush" in which the whole story was tweaked to get a different ending; I didn't mind, because even if in the vast minority that enjoy the Hush character, I still believe that in only one film they couldn't have done the OG storyline, so might as well play with the audience's expectations... I have a feeling that lots of people hated the ending just because "it was nothing like the comic!!" even if, by their own admission, they didn't even like the comic storyline. In the context of that universe, with a time constraint, IMHO they did a good job. I'm still butthurt we never got the Matsudaverse "The Batman vs Hush", since "The Batman vs Dracula" was so much more "adult" than the TV series (that I also happen to love), but this film was a nice addition to the DCAMU library. Outside the DCAMU, another movie that changed quite a lot from the source material is the recent *"Batman: The Long Halloween"* that tweaked a lot of parts and I didn't mind, because I've read the story so many times, might as well watch something a bit different rather than a simple copy of the comic book. Rambling over; FIN

[@powerhouse6165]

The only reason I found out about Cassandra Cain, my now favorite DC character ever, was because Young Justice decided to have a couple episodes focusing on her. For a lot of us who don't read comics it's a great way to introduce us to new things that we want to dive deeper into.

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@randallflagg3700 I more just dint like that they made the riddler hush because I always saw riddler as a strategic fighter more than anything

[@the4thwallkid132]

Surprisingly the "One bad day" moment was adapted into Archie Sonic. I'm not kidding, it happened in a fight with Sonic against his evil universe counterpart Scourge (because comic books), and Scourge said to Sonic "All it takes is One. Bad. Day. And you'd be just like me"

[@RhyperiorRanger]

Gotta love Scourge. Hope he’ll make it into the games someday

[@fudgegorilla]

Best part of that bit was the fact that Sonic turned it around on him-He instead made Scourge realize that he COULD be a good guy, and that *terrified* the little green shit.

[@mikegates8993]

@@RhyperiorRanger Same, but I feel like they don't do enough to make Shadow more than "evil" and "edgy" Sonic and Scourge would be redundant.

[@mcpics4448]

Rhyperior Ranger sadly due that lawsuit he’s under penders, which he’s willing to license his characters out for about 10,000 dollars

[@notmyrealname453]

@@RhyperiorRanger Sadly, due to legal disputes with Ken Penders, Scourge can not be used again in any Sonic media.

[@jesseturner6785]

"I don't know if you guys have heard, but that didn't wind up happening." Ooh I felt that.

[@hypno-scream5652]

It’s kinda creepy how lifeless and unhappy Batgirl looks in this.

[@carlosalmonacid8958]

It's also weird how she sounds like Twilight Sparkle from My Little Pony.

[@hypno-scream5652]

@@carlosalmonacid8958 I now have the mental image of Batman screwing Twilight on a rooftop and I have you to blame for it...

[@fynnthefox9078]

@@carlosalmonacid8958 Tara has voiced Batgirl before MLP. In The New Batman Adventures.

[@carlosalmonacid8958]

@@fynnthefox9078 I knew that, its just she sounds especially like Twilight Sparkle here, when she didn't always back in Batman:TAS

[@carlosalmonacid8958]

@@hypno-scream5652 You're welcome.

[@dinofacedindividual9462]

The whole Batman and Barbara relationship really feels like Bruce Timm trying to force his ship on his audience. Edit: I had commented that before getting to the part where Linkara discusses it. Yeah, it’s the weird boogeyman of the DCAU

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

Excuse me Linkara everyone should be stoked when Superman at Earth's End gets the adaptation we deserve 😂

[@DeadHorse84]

If it happens, watching it will somehow be the greatest joy, shame, and penance to be experienced simultaneously.

[@Predator20357]

Come on, we need duel Hitlers

[@Rabbitlord108]

*SPOILERS* They decided to add a clone of Gorilla Grodd.

[@kitestar]

The real villain of the killing joke? Copyright claims…and KZbin

[@EyeOfArgus]

Oh boy a never before seen episode!!

[@johnathonhaney8291]

32:19 That disregard for Barbara does give additional weight to a Suicide Squad cover I vividly recall. She's in the center shot in her wheelchair, a red Bat-shadow over her right shoulder. She's looking dead ahead at the reader, leveling a very large revolver in the same direction. The word balloon next to her has one terrifying word: "Smile."

[@MovieMan1710]

During this whole review, I was thinking to myself, "Man Barbara really should have been the main character in all of this. Let this be her crucible where she truly learns the horrors of what she faces and let her overcome the anger and trauma she experienced by sparing the Joker and bringing him in by the book like her father wanted. And make Batman a supporter who helps her come to that realization during the lengthy prologue. Also, maybe like, use the actual main villain of the piece rather than creating some generic gangster with an obsession gimick?" Glad to know we saw eye to eye on that front. Great review, hoping the next one is a bit more light hearted. Keep up the great work. P.S, someone Sponsor him to review Batman Ninja. That's a fun one and he deserves a fun Batman review.

[@somik-i3x]

I feel I am the only one to find Batman Ninja boring. Yes the animation is awesome and the red hood scene is the best scene of the movie. But the rest is just so slow and all the character are useless in the story. Promare is a better big action movie, because it give awesome animation and multiple fight scenes. (Just personal opinion)

[@mattsherlock9636]

Or Batman/Teenage mutant ninja turtles (comic or film) or the Adam West animated batman movies or any of the Million better Batman films. Including the batman knockoffs like The Shadow or the Nineties Captain America film.

[@estebangutierrez160]

And/or season 1 of Helluva Boss and Harley Quinn tv series.

[@Darklordjadow1]

When Mark Hamill ostensibly retired his Joker after Arkham City, he specifically said he'd come back for an adaptation of the Killing Joke. He'd been DYING to sink his teeth into this material for years! Part of the problem is the animation failing him, but it's baffling that his performance is so misguided here; subdued and sad in all the wrong places.

[@dreamlandnightmare]

While Hamill may always have wanted to do it, Hamill's take on the Joker is all kinds of wrong for this Joker. It would be like Ceasar Romero's Joker in The Dark Knight.

[@aymann7234]

​@@dreamlandnightmare ...that sounds hilarious and I want this. I mean, DKR already has Batman just can't get rid of a bomb.

[@Mobysimo]

And it's weird it's so subdued given the great performance he gave in Knight the year before.

[@chwenhoou]

I'd partly chalk this up to the poor direction. Actors cannot give their best when their director isn't.

[@jamesadamsfl]

I haven't seen the whole movie, but I do think Hamill did a good job with the 3rd act, basically everything from Batman going through the fun house up until the end. It starts slow and controlled, but he progressively loses it more as Batman refuses to break. When, he goes back to subdued again, it feels like he's just given up. I like the ending because it just feels sad for both these characters. Batman genuinely feels sorry for Joker and doesn't want to kill him but is worried he may not have a choice while Joker, in the face of real human kindness from his work enemy, actually has a moment of remorse and regret over the fact that he can't go back to a normal life. It's so moody and heartbreaking.

[@alexpage10]

15:40 "I'm French! Why do you think I have this OUTRRRRRAGEOUS accent you silly king!?"

[@MrKlausbaudelaire]

Better yet, Paris France becomes Bomb Voyage and this is all a prequel to start a DC + The Incredibles shared universe!

[@lexofexcel886]

I find it kinda weird how the Arkham games did individual aspects of TKJ at points with the same actors and did it a lot more justice. Arkham City's interview tapes had the Joker recounting this version of his origin to Hugo Strange, which adds the aspect of a fellow villain calling out how it's a method of avoiding responsibility. Arkham Knight has a Scarecrow-induced flashback about the scene with Barbara, which is a marked improvement if only because there's no stripping off her clothes. The games aren't perfect, especially in terms of writing, but at least they made an effort.

[@Mobysimo]

Arkham Origins also has the Red Hood break in and the reveal of the Jokers face. And it keeps the idea that he's making it all up, since he's talking to Harley and it could be argued he's trying to get sympathy. And yeah Knight did the shooting a lot better simply by just having Joker show up, shoot her, crack a bad joke and take a picture. No stripping or anything like that. Plus Mark Hamill is actually giving Joker the manic energy he gives the character. He's laughing his ass off at his own bad joke and he made a stupid "Candy Gram" bit when Barbara opened the door

[@ChristianNeihart]

For me, the best and most definitive version of the Killing Joke was done in Batman Beyond.

[@dylansharp8471]

@@ChristianNeihart The Killing Joke was done in Batman Beyond?

[@ChristianNeihart]

@@dylansharp8471 not one to one but yes. They did it in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. Tim Drake gets kidnapped by the Joker and is almost turned into a Mini Joker. Tim Drake kills the Joker. Years later the Batfamily falls apart. I like how the movie doesn't elevate Joker as this big existential threat and has him get taken out like a punk, twice.

[@johnathonhaney8291]

@@ChristianNeihart That last FU from Terry Mcginnis of "Ha...ha" says it all on the second takedown, don't it?

[@TheMamaluigi300]

23:22 Also, does this mean Donna Troy technically rip off the Joker?

[@artistwithouttalent]

Amazing. Every creative decision they made was wrong. It's frustrating because _adapting_ The Killing Joke _is a good idea._ It's a widely celebrated story that nevertheless has some significant issues and isn't feature-length. All three of these lend themselves to a property ripe for adapting: the status of the story generates excitement among fans and laypeople because this story has that level of provenance. However, it has issues that can be addressed in adaptation that nobody would object to (at least not without appearing to be a massive prick), all the while adding runtime and maintaining the bones of a decent story. Instead they decide "making the character a bigger part of the story" and "giving a character agency" means making her look like an inexperienced idiot and adding a totally pointless romance subplot with someone who was in their 20s when she was born and who has been a constant fixture in her life, which is conceptually gross in so many ways that I really don't feel like it needs expanded upon. Meanwhile they _cut out_ bits of the Joker's dialog which was one of my favorite parts of the comic. It really is a shame it turned out like this.

[@zumby101]

@48:24 no…. No that’s just bad voice direction. Hamil actually recently voiced the joker before this, the year prior Arkham knight released, and on several occasions in Game he does the signature laugh. Even if recording was done in 2014 or the like I don’t think his age is affecting his voice that much as he gets older In short I think the voice director didn’t think they had to tell Kevin and mark anything besides read because of their icon status as the voices of these characters

[@chrisw2307]

There was a panel or something where Bruce Timm basically said he grew up with the 60s Adam West show, and he always felt there was some romantic tension between Batman and Batgirl there. And going back to Barbara's first appearance on that show, Commissioner Gordon IS trying to set the two of them up. So I guess that stuck with him. Ironically, despite Bruce shipping them, I think the animated series helped popularize the Barbara-Dick Grayson ship.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Let's not forget what Azzarrelo did to the Amazons and Wonder Woman. His treatment of female characters is beyond questionable.

[@eamonndeane587]

I don't get why The New 52 WW runs are so loved by a Lot of people. I think that it's a Garbage book that's really Sexist.

[@alexandersturnn4530]

@@eamonndeane587 From what I could gather (don't quote me on that though, I might have gotten the wrong impression), it's because they supposedly 'knock the Amazons off their Holier-then-thou-Pedestal' that they were allegedly on before and show them as man-hating murderers, rapists, monsters and hypocrites, which is supposedly 'more accurate' to how they were in the Ancient Myths. Which is BULLSHIT on so many Levels. What especially grinds my Gears about this is that every single damn time I watch a Video on KZbin with a Scene from a Movie or TV-Series were Wonder Woman criticizes the Male Members of the Justice League, no matter for what reason and whether or not she is right/has a point, I ALWAYS see at least one Comment going "Well, Wondy, you come from an Island of man-hating Rapist Murderers, so shut up, you're a Hypocrite and have no right to argue"! You know, even though the Amazons are not at ALL like that in most continuities! Words can not DESCRIBE how much I've come to HATE the New 52 WW Runs...

[@ironmaster6496]

@@alexandersturnn4530 Wonder woman just either exist to be a straw feminist or a sex object that lust for either batman and superman (injustice being the absolute worst adaptation of her. the only big exceptions are saw were the movie and the Dc animated universe (yeah she is on love with batman but thats just a layer of her no the entire thing)

[@alexandersturnn4530]

@@ironmaster6496 Bullshit.

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@ironmaster6496 i thought the gail simone run was pretty good from what i read of it

[@ajsparrow4429]

Hope this stays up This was a solid review of a very chaotic story, but you call it put Killing Joke is NOT Oracle's origin story

[@sebastianemond5313]

Exactly! It's supposed to be an unknown mystery origin of the Joker, because as the man said, his past is multiple choice.

[@myriadmediamusings]

People saying that The Killing Joke justifies its existence because Oracle came later is giving it way too much credit. It's like saying that One More Day's existence eventually led to Spider-Man: No Way Home.

[@sebastianemond5313]

@@myriadmediamusings That connection would be *One Bad Day* for everyone. What's next? Sin's Past led to The Amazing Spider-Man 2 with Gwen's death? That'd be a Hell of a stretch, especially in a potential Andrew Garfield third movie after No Way Home, that at some point Gwen & Harry, or Gwen & Norman, got together, and that being why Emma Stone's Gwen was killed, and not just a last minute storyline adaptation thrown in to evoke dramatic points from the audiences. Even then, the death of Gwen in the Andrew Garfield movie while sad, also felt empty and rushed.

[@parrot998]

I think the reason many people get hyped for comic adaptations actually has more to do with social bonding than the product itself. Comics are a niche thing. They're expensive for their relative entertainment value, storylines are hard to keep on top of, physical comics take up space and require special treatment not to decay compared to hardcover books, and some people struggle with reading them... But when a story you love gets it's time in a big popular format like TV or movies, all of a sudden you can gush about the story with your non-comic reading friends, and you can even use that as a segway to talk about how the adaptation differs from the original, and so all of a sudden you are able to meaningfully engage about a comic you love with someone who doesn't even read comics.

[@TheEmeraldWeirdo]

I agree with you on Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamil being the wrong choices for this film. I mean, yeah, they're the most popular voices for Batman and Joker, but Mark just doesn't have the energy he used to, and Kevin's developed a habit of overemphasizing Batman's stoicism.

[@markmagician2471]

Hmmmm besides Conroy the other person I can think of is Bruce Greenwood was also a good Batman voice

[@eamonndeane587]

Wes Gleason (the Voice Director for the Film) is really Hit and Miss in the quality of his ADR work. He's not a great successor for Andrea Romano in my opinion.

[@leephillips4402]

Now I kinda want him to review the TV version of Crisis on Infinite Earth's.

[@Batmanbeyyond]

@@eamonndeane587 I think if Andrea was the voice director of this film these 2 would have been phenomenal just like in the original series

[@eamonndeane587]

@@Batmanbeyyond Another good alternative for Voice Direction duties would be Kris Zimmerman Salter (the voice director for the Metal Gear Games and Spider-Man 2018). Salter previously directed Kevin Conroy's Batman in the First Injustice game.

[@rue8929]

Linkara bringing up the Tim-verse's version of The Dark Knight Returns really makes me want to see his opinions on the mini-series adaptation with Peter 'Robocop' Weller as batman.

[@sebastianemond5313]

Funny how both actors from Paul Verhoven films have portrayed Frank Miller's Batman. Weller from Robocop, and Ironside from Total Recall.

[@oscarmccormack1611]

I remember really liking the performances in that adaptation.

[@chengarqordath]

I don't think his review of the animated adaptation would be substantially different from the review he already did of the comic, since it was a fairly faithful adaptation. There were a few changes for pacing and cutting a few bits that haven't aged well (though not all of them) but there weren't any substantive changes.

[@jeremyborder6794]

I was just thinking the same thing

[@curtisbender9042]

This is the video that introduced me to your channel. I'm glad I found it because your content is absolutely amazing!

[@Rabbitlord108]

It's the first main video I watched (First video involving him I saw was the collab review of The Spirit movie on Bad Movie Beatdown)

[@danahimrich1059]

Hey Linkara! Just wanted to say that I love this review and that you're the reason why I now have a used copy of an Alan Moore DC collection, which includes The Killing Joke w/the original coloring. It's quite beautiful in its own way!

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

The "Why aren't you laughing" scene ended with the man Joker used to be slowly coming to the surface. You can see it in the art. And, I understand that art is interpretive, but it seemed pretty definitive to me. So, how did Azzarello and crew decide to play that scene? "Have Hamill blow out his vocal chords on that line". Just a weird, fundamental misunderstanding. I don't understand why it's so hard to take the thing in the book, and animate it. Japan's managed to do it for, oh, about a few decades now pretty successfully. If the worst criticism for your adaptation is "Oh. It's like the thing I read", I think you're good.

[@Azazreal]

You say that like anime doesnt butcher most manga. Most stories are destroyed when they are lifted from one medium to another.

[@viraltang]

@@Azazreal Not really sometimes the adaptation is better than the source Soul Eater anyone?

[@cartooncritic7045]

@@Azazreal There's a lot of ups and downs when it comes to anime adaptations from manga but there's been plenty of examples of successful adaptations just as there are lots of poor examples.

[@TheFrugalVideoGamer]

Agreed - I always read that line as despairing at the tragic, cruel irony of it all, and his being genuinely confused as to why Batman couldn't see it for himself.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

@@Azazreal I don't know about destroyed but it does come with things that need to be addressed. A story written for one medium has to be changed at points to follow into a new one. It's why I find novelizations interesting. The problem is changing stuff that shouldn't have been changed. I remember watching a video (I want to say either Owen Likes Comics or Strip Panel Naked) going over finer points in the artwork that plays to the theme that the movie ignored because they didn't catch the significance. The added parts that do nothing to benefit the story but pad out a run time. The problem isn't that changed media, it's that it didn't do it well.

[@colincec]

This was a pretty solid review. I have something to add... I was actually at the infamous premiere and the question of Barbara and Bruce's relationship came up. If memory serves, Bruce Timm felt there was some sexual chemistry between Batman and Batgirl in the Adam West series. But was even more baffling is the thing he said about how it played out in the movie here. I can't remember his exact words, but he said that the sex scene was more about Barbara being in love with the violence than Bruce. Even as someone who enjoyed the movie (despite the numerous, NUMEROUS flaws), that comment struck me as very weird and didn't sit right with my brain.

[@dromalloma2651]

You'd think that would be the exact reason Batman would _spurn_ her advances. Aside from all the other glaring red flags mentioned, he should want to protect her from this dangerous state of mind, not drag her down further. Ugh, this writing is so bad.

[@leephillips4402]

Having it be Michael Keaton calling him out for that was a nice touch.

[@mattr75]

51:01 The hall of mirrors thing is supposed to be him moving around like he's doing a standup comedy act and it ultimately ends on that panel with no one laughing at his act as a parallel to his life before becoming the Joker. There was a 3D animation that conveyed it that was made a long time ago

[@DigiRangerScott]

I think we’re going to need an oracle to find out how many uploads it’ll take to stick

[@pedanticat9479]

Pfffft!

[@GamingArcane]

Not sure he would have done a better job, but on the topic of using someone other then Mark Hamill for the Joker, I really would like to see John Dimaggio get another shot at it. I liked his performance in Under the Red Hood.

[@BobLogical]

He played him again in Death in the Family. Even did the ending joke from this movie, and it was great.

[@wcapewell3089]

@@BobLogical jensen ackles should have come back to play red hood in that.

[@TPrower]

I really don’t know what purpose the first half of this adaptation was supposed to serve. All it did was show that Barbara was reckless, kind of an idiot, and sexually obsessed with Batman. Was it supposed to be some sick justification of her being better as Oracle than as Batgirl? I’d only read the comic version and never saw the whole adaptation, but I’m flabbergasted with this depiction of her, which only makes her being shot, stripped, and having pictures taken of her even worse. That said, the original Killing Joke is a darkly interesting read, with the Joker’s chilling philosophy that one bad day is enough to drive a man insane, and the only way to react to an unfair and cruel world that constantly beats you down is to give in to depravity and deny reality itself. Batman may have proven him wrong since his attempt to break Commissioner Gordon failed, but the story presented as an origin for him is pretty tragic: a down-on-his-luck man just trying to make ends meet for his wife and unborn child, only for one catastrophe after another to knock him down and drive him to become the Clown Prince of Crime…

[@Kentrc11]

Barb is in the comic & it respects the source material that she is in the movie as well. Barb is also an adult with a career in this movie - if she wants to be sexually attracted to anyone she is free to choose.

[@andrijadjordjevic9203]

RIP Kevin Conroy

[@jaywingate187]

Everything in the actual content of the comic/film aside, it's always nice to remember what a wonderful power couple John Ostrander and Kim Yale were.

[@johnathonhaney8291]

That Yale died so many years ago from breast cancer and Ostrander is now legally blind is a great cosmic injustice to me.

[@jaredohlstein7355]

@@johnathonhaney8291 I agree wholeheartedly

[@YourUncleBenis]

I said this on the original video, so I'll repeat it here: It's really weird that the origin of Barbara's paralysis didn't get revised until last year's season of Young Justice. It took THAT long for someone to say, "Hey, maybe this part of the concept needs to be reworked if we wanna continue using it."

[@JamesTobiasStewart]

Yeah and it did something that Alan Moore himself said he would have changed if he'd thought DC was gonna make The Killing Joke canon; it gives Barbara agency in what happened to her. She could have saved her legs, all she'd have had to do was let Cassie become the killer her father wanted her to be. She was not a mere victim in YJ, she made a choice.

[@pokejoseph]

Let’s get Linkara to see this!

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@JamesTobiasStewart indeed

[@Blokewood3]

@@JamesTobiasStewart I agree with all the story points. The Young Justice version gives her agency and actually does make that part of the story about her instead of the people around her. There is something I wonder about though, can a sword actually cause that sort of injury? I think that in the Killing Joke the bullet caused trauma to Barbara's spine, which led to her paralysis. For a sword to damage her spine, it would probably have to cut her nearly in half, in which case she would probably be dead.

[@twinkles190]

idk, I liked that Barbara had no agency. How she managed to win her agency back and how she dealt with what happened to her is actually really inspiring. I know, I know, something like this happened to a woman... again, but Barbara is actually a really well-done character on that front. Not saying that the Young Justice version isn't inspiring. Both the Young Justice version and the Killing Joke version say different things about Barbara's strength of character and I enjoy both. But I don't think an inherent lack of agency is bad. It's how character deal with the fallout that can make them so fascinating.

[@ChadDenton0712]

As a gay man I can verify the gay guy scene is complicated (although that character was stereotypical AF).

[@estebangutierrez160]

Ikr

[@POLE7645]

You know... Back when you reviewed ASBAR, you mentioned that All-Star Batgirl never saw the light of day. This movie IS All-Star Batgirl. Complete with barely focusing on the protagonist after a while, involving other characters and stories, mixing sex and violence and ridiculous melodramatic dialogue. Seriously, the abyss line was so bad it kinda sounded like Kevin Conroy was trying not to laugh as he was saying it.

[@POLE7645]

@TenseDart All-Star Batman And Robin.

[@dakotadoyle7573]

The Barbara and Batman relationship in this deserves Linkara's epic NO clip

[@Rabbitlord108]

To me the sex scene is so insane that I think it could've been appropriate to use the clip of Linkara saying what repeatedly from the Dark Nights Metal review.

[@adrianomoraes5992]

It is so odd to see Timm so out of touch. I feel he fully came into it thinking like an episode of the animated series without any further consideration over the differences of tone, themes and specifics to this project. Even shoving the Batgirl making out with Batman, which he strongly implied in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker, feels like following the motions of doing what he always does with Batman stories ( ugh in this case ) rather than considering the specifics of the original source. I am not sure if this was rushed or he is just that stagnated on what he did in the 90s and early 00s.

[@dnmstarsi]

Yeah but hey, every creator or alike makes shit every now and then. It IS odd but remember when it came to the DCAU, it wasn't a one man show and Timm was one of many who made the DCAU so dang great.

[@adrianomoraes5992]

@@dnmstarsi To my mind Dwayne McDuffie was the DCAU.

[@dnmstarsi]

@@adrianomoraes5992 Yeah, he was one of many responsible for the DCAU as well as Static Shock both comic and cartoon. Also if the shows were Megazords or Voltron or alike, I consider him the "head" of the JL shows.

[@adrianomoraes5992]

@@dnmstarsi A way or another this is not a discussion about the DCAU.

[@dnmstarsi]

@@adrianomoraes5992 Yeah... But it could be. LMAO

[@felixorozco4055]

i genuinely expected Linkara to say "have you ever seen me without this hat" after saying "i'm a weirdo".

[@CalvinChikelue]

He doesn’t “fit in”…. But that’s why we love him

[@strandedgeek]

Honestly Arkham Knight and the killing joke a lot better when they flash back to Barbara getting shot it was shocking and tragic and they DIDN'T need the Joker to assault her like that. I think an interesting idea is if they combined it with the Death of Jason Todd and go with Joker thinking it's funny that the one thing worse than one bad day, is a bad day that never stops. Implying it wasn't just to break Jim Gordon but also Batman.

[@yousefkaldany2779]

I really like this idea, Strandedgeek. This should have been the story of the planned Zack Snyder Batfleck film years ago, imo. Since Ben doesn’t wanna play Batman anymore, I’d probably do this with Matt Reeves’ Batman eventually. Let me know what you think 😁

[@Mobysimo]

Arkham Knight's show of that scene was so much better. And Arkham Origins also did a version of the Chemical Plant Raid which was handled very very well

[@ThePonderer]

I’m fairly certain “Conroy and Hamill turned out to be the wrong VA’s for this material” ended up being a fairly common sentiment.

[@ToHoldNothing]

I'm wondering who would work as a replacement: Jason O Mara for Batman is my instinct and maybe John Dimaggio or Alan Tudyk, maybe even Troy Baker for Joker

[@pedanticat9479]

I honestly never even considered that they weren't right for this adaption and Linkara definitely raised good points

[@Tareltonlives]

I actually think they would have done a good job with better voice direction

[@XLR108]

I mean I disagree, it definantely seems to be more bad direction rather than them just not doing a good job. Hamill has done readings of some of Jokers monogologues from killing joke really well and amazingly. But in this they seemed to want him more... Subdued? Which he CAN do a subdued joker when it calls for it, but not for the entire thing. Conroy can do every range of emotion with batman masterfully yet in the killing joke adaptation he sounds... Kinda bored for the most part. the voice actors CAN absolutely do the killing joke well, but its definantely more bad direction

[@gregorymelissinos337]

@@ToHoldNothing Diedrich Bader and Jeff Bennett. The original comic was a very dissonant story with dark subject matter pitted against a silver age style aesthetic. The two actors from brave and the bold can pull off silly but also go to dark places when needed.

[@wstine79]

I'm not sure which is more stressful to Linkara: reviewing the movie adaptation of "The Killing Joke" or trying to keep the review video on KZbin properly?

[@MegaManDBZX]

Three simple ways to fix this movie. One have the villain in the Barbara part be a hacker that Babs is getting more and more obsessed with bringing in, making Bruce think about his own deal with Joker. Two, have Babara helping from her hospital bed, adapting the tactics of the suggested hacker in her first act as Oracle. Finally, excise Bruce banging his son’s ex and daughter of one of his best friends and we’re good.

[@noahstackhouse9818]

Interestingly enough I just recently watched season 4 of Young Justice that featured Barbra and Cassandra Cain. In it Barbra was crippled protecting the Joker from Cassie who was sent by the League of Shadows to kill him. She tells Cassie she did it to save her from becoming a killer. This leads to her joining the bat family as Orphan and forming her relationship with Barbra/Orcale. I found this to be a much better story that respected and gave agency to Barbras' chatacter.

[@eamonndeane587]

That and Alyson Stoner gave a great performance as Barbara in that episode

[@Oliviagarry69420]

@@eamonndeane587 wait……ISABELLA AND XION PLAYS BATGIRL?!?!?

[@Lady_Yunalesca]

Was just about to comment this very thing!

[@eamonndeane587]

@@Oliviagarry69420 Yes. They probably cast her because Roxas was voicing Nightwing.

[@firebrand723]

Alfred: you know Barbra, you should be a bit more thankful. Batgirl: why? Alfred: you have two great fathers, master Bruce has none. Barabara touches alfred’s Shoulder... Batgirl: don’t sell yourself short. She smiles, Alfred keeps dusting.

[@arellajardin8188]

No doubt Bruce Timm’s and the other’s reactions and quotes about the backlash to the movie, came from a sense of defensiveness and believing people just hating. But I wonder if they ever came to understand “why” it’s so bad. Like, do they have it in them to be retrospective about their own work, and realize how reductive they were in the portrayal of Barbara Gordon? It really is a character assassination, and obviously they didn’t feel that way at the time.

[@pedanticat9479]

I want to say it's impossible for creators to be that blind to the flaws of their work but I've seen it MANY times

[@sebastianemond5313]

Just portraying Batgirl like this with *Bruce* of all people, it's as bad as Spider-Man: Sins Past with the retcon of Gwen Stacy having cheated on Peter with Norman Osborn.

[@dnmstarsi]

@@sebastianemond5313 IMO Gwen had it worse. Sure, Babs got screwed but she still got Oracle in the end even though it was handled poorly.

[@sebastianemond5313]

@@dnmstarsi Barb got *screwed* twice. First was... and then second was getting paralyzed. Still, it doesn't change how shoehorned Barb was in this story, despite their attempts to rectify how the comic portrayed her tragedy. The Killing Joke is the *Joker's* story, not Oracle's story.

[@arellajardin8188]

It’s all of it. Making her out to be childish, easily distracted with a wink from a low rent villain, needing to have a man explain why she should be offended. Falling into a trap she already knew was a trap because vanity. And ultimately being unsuited to be a hero because she’s a thrill seeking, thirsty adrenaline junky.

[@Predator20357]

The Killing Joke has some ups and some downs but like Linkara said, the biggest problem is that Barbara was used for shock value and since it was so short, it was impossible to get Barabara's perspective on all of this. The movie basically slapped a TV episode basically with the Killing Joke at the end.

[@VortexTraveller]

15:38 So now I'm imagining Batgirl & Batman fighting Bomb Voyage from The Incredibles, which would certainly be more interesting than the gangster guy.

[@Maswartz226]

At this point I actually dread when things get adapted because more often than not they trim way too much off and add things nobody needed. See Injustice. And yes I know that's the nature of the beast.

[@TheDestroyerX]

Gotham By Gaslight, Batman Hush too and many more

[@jacklindsey8400]

Yea there are good ones, but oh so many bad... And nowadays even the good ones seem to cheap out on the animation, would have much preferred "The Long Halloween" with the original art style...

[@TheDestroyerX]

@@jacklindsey8400 my favorite is still Under the Red Hood

[@pedanticat9479]

Some adaptations at definitely better then others

[@pistaalkohol]

Yeah, but the adaptations aren't replacement for the originals, so the worst thing they could do is make something that isn't worth to watch.

[@LikaLaruku]

All the icky stuff with Barbara just further makes me feel that "Lovers & Madmen" was the better Joker origin story, even if the art sucked. Timm shipping Batgirl with Batman kinda reminds me of how Dini would constantly throw a wrench in the works every time Harley was supposed to leave the Joker for goid, & he'd always make her come crawling back to him. One day I realized that Oracle & Xavier were the only two characters readers in wheelchairs could relate to on a physical level, & that both characters can walk now.

[@evanbao93]

At least with Paul Dini, it's implied to be a status quo thing since Harley leaving the Joker for good would fundamentally change everything.

[@Gibson343088]

I think this adaptation needed to happen. Maybe now writers will start moving away from the, "ItS GoOd bEcAuSe ItS DaRk," bullshit comics have been stuck in for decades and start writing more well rounded stories.

[@TF2Fan101]

One Word: Titans.

[@Tareltonlives]

I can only hope

[@kimifw58]

You'd think that, but they're still doing it. They never learn.

[@MAMoreno]

One of the main problems with this adaptation--other than the underwhelming voice acting and animation, of course--is that you really can't insert things into The Killing Joke without ruining its artistic integrity, especially in regards to the repeated motifs throughout the story (e.g. the mirrored opening and closing scenes). Moore wrote a very tight, self-contained tale, so expansions simply don't work. Thus, I can see only two viable solutions for addressing the Barbara Gordon fridging problem in the film: 1. Cut Barbara from the story altogether, or at least remove her from Gordon's abduction scene (and thus spare her from any injuries). Keep Joker's assault on Jim Gordon focused solely on Jim Gordon, and give Barbara some other reason for not joining in on Batman's climactic confrontation with the Joker. The downside is that you go from mistreating a character to erasing the character (and the Oracle identity in the process), but at least you dodge the overt misogyny of the original story. 2. Instead of making one feature film, make three short films and release them together. The main attraction is a faithful adaptation of The Killing Joke, but that short is bookended with two Barbara Gordon shorts. The first one could be an adaptation of the 1988 Batgirl Special by Barbara Randall (which is the official tie-in comic to The Killing Joke). The second one could be something akin to Chuck Dixon's Birds of Prey 16-17 from 2000, wherein Barbara confronts and outwits the Joker as Oracle.

[@Cephalopod51]

I remember when I was first introduced to The Killing Joke by an acquaintance in high school. The visuals, the dark carnival aspect, the dark humor, and having Batman and Joker laugh together in the end intrigued me. I was especially intrigued that it dealt with the Joker's origin. Unfortunately, I didn't read it until much later, but I was glad that I did read it. I had initial mixed feelings about The Killing Joke. I liked the aspect of Joker being a failed comedian who donned the Red Hood, and fell into the chemical vat. I liked the story arc. I liked the art. I liked the details in each panel. But I also thought it took quick melodramatic shortcuts, and tried too hard to be profound in certain places. And this was after reading V for Vendetta and Watchmen. I was also so used to the Jack Napier origin of Joker, that I at times felt that the Killing Joke's origin didn't measure up the same way. Now that I'm older, I appreciate what Killing Joke set out to do, but I think there's room for improvement. If I were to adapt Killing Joke, I would retain the structure, but give the characters more things to do. I like your idea, Linkara, of Batgirl recovering from her wound, and accompanying Batman to save her father. Maybe they can use a made-up drug that speeds up the healing process. I'd develop the Joker's origin a little more, but still keep the parts that fit. Maybe I'd add a twist where the wife didn't die, and the Joker went through all what he did for nothing. Since the Joker acquired carnival horror henchmen, why not feature Batman fighting them before getting to Joker? Have him endure several horrific trials at the carnival before facing the Joker at last. Maybe including flashbacks to previous issues where the Joker was a menace, like Joker's Fiveway Revenge or Batman #1, would add to the story, I might even include advice from Bruce Wayne's teacher, Master Kirigi, in a nod to Enter the Dragon, when Batman navigates through the Joker's maze. I used to not like the colors in the original issue, but presently, I think the older colors served the story better. It made it feel more nightmarish and hallucinatory. They kind of resemble Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Tales from the Crypt. Maybe adapting the visual styles from both for a new adaptation could enhance the horror-aspect of The Killing Joke. Those are just ideas. I'm sure someone could do an adaptation way better than what I had in mind. I am confused by Alan Moore's assessment of Killing Joke. Alan Moore can be all over the place when it comes to writing and criticism in comic books, especially with his own work. Personally, I think stories about superheroes and supervillains can impart important human information. Whether it delivers satire, social commentary, absurdism, relatable experiences, or dark humor, superhero comic books can do lots of things with the medium. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, The Mask, The Tick, Daredevil, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, and others all have proven that. Killing Joke had a lot of great ideas. I think the only issue it had was that it needed more development to feel more complete in accordance to Moore's creative standards.

[@carltonpowell5313]

Look: Bruce ends up with Selina. Dick ends up with Barbara. Tim ends up with Stephanie. Just how it is No weird mingling.

[@daelen.cclark]

No horrible age-gaps, either.

[@timmckee6340]

nice to have this up again. I have no real desire to see thing movie as the controversy I feel far outweighs wherever merits it may have, so I thank you for doing this so this I don’t have too. Another thing that sucks is that as I’ve heard that apparently Mark Hamill wanted to voice joker for this and even encouraged fans to make an animated adaptation possible. I’m really glad to hear that the biggest controversy didn’t stem from anything within the killing joke itself but rather from a stupid decision made by the creators of this thing. 20:48 you know what would have amazing if batman said something like “its…hard sometimes I wonder if I should just surrender to my lowest instincts, but I always have something inside me that hold me back from doing so...and its looks like you do too”

[@Webshooters1]

Yeah, it was one of Mark Hamil's greatest wishes to be able to voice Joker in an adaptation of The Killing Joke and stated it would be the one thing that would bring him out of retirement. Course he's gone on to voice Joker in other media so make of that what you will.

[@TheFrugalVideoGamer]

He says something similar in "Under the Red Hood", and it works astoundingly well there, as it points a fine point on *why* he has his code against killing criminals, while still allowing people to decide "...no, Jason's kind of right in this one."

[@Rixec2]

Glad to see it's back up and hopefully stays so. This is such an amazing and insightful review it deserves to be seen.

[@Smileyface8433]

Ahhh The Killing Joke. I remember this comic distinctly, having read it as a young teenage girl, as a reminder of how much I loved comics and how much comics hated me. I think this was my first major example of seeing women being fridged, which sucked b/c I ADORED batgirl! And this movie just seems to make it so much worse? Like I’m not sure what Bruce Timm was getting at with Barbara and Bruce having sex, but, given the whole onus of Barbara getting shot was Batman and Gordon’s man-pain, it felt like the major take away was that women are not important to the men in their lives unless they are blood relatives or having sex. It really just adds insult to injury for a theme that already sucked a lot. Even though The Killing Joke made me feel deeply sad as a kid, I can recognize its merit as a really interesting story. This movie however just plain sucks.

[@gregcourtney751]

From my understanding Timm just really ships Batgirl and batman for some reason. Did it in the dcau too. He just didn't realize how going so far with his problematic ship, fir the reasons Linkara brought up, would not resonate to a lot of people, esp. When it wasn't really explored.

[@Xehanort10]

Timm's being obsessed with the idea of Batman and Batgirl as a couple since the DCAU in The New Batman Adventures. Apparently the idea that Batman would go after Joker for crippling the woman who's like a daughter to him didn't occur to Timm who like many obsessive shippers thinks the only feelings a person can have for someone are romantic or sexual.

[@jadenbryant9283]

@@gregcourtney751 and that really hurts the dcau because otherwise i love it

[@Xehanort10]

20:34 Her going psycho on him proves what I said on another video. This version of Barbara is basically Harley Quinn in a Batsuit and is as obsessed with Batman as Harley is with Joker.

[@MikeOShay]

The real Joke is that KZbin keeps Killing this video

[@jeremyborder6794]

Thanks to you Linkara, I’m starting to reevaluate my own thoughts on the adaptation. You definitely made some compelling points

[@RyanPainter]

Interestingly, there was a batgirl comic that was published right before killing joke, and it showed Barbara's last case as batgirl(which may have been a case involving domestic abuse), and she decided to retire as batgirl because A: she doesn't feel like she's needed anymore and B: her best friend convinced her to. Had they adapted that story for the killing joke movie, it would've made a lot more sense than what they went with. Plus, it would've been two adaptations in one movie.

[@StormsongK]

Conroy and Hamill could have NAILED this ten or twenty years ago. Conroy's Batman was harder and Hamill's voice hadn't aged so much. Conroy's performance has softened and Hamill has trouble not rasping everything, especially the laughs.