Battle Breakdown : Babylon 5 defends a Narn Cruiser

[@hydrogenone6866]

I loved how Babylon 5 had different races with different tech levels.

[@virginiahansen320]

I particularly like how, in this fight, the Centauri are more technologically advanced, but that advantage is negated by brute force and superior implementation of available technology by Earth. Their warship got merc'd by an Earth diplomatic station that couldn't even move and only took the gloves off and really started fighting when they took some damage. I always thought this would be particularly embarrassing for the Centauri, who thought they were cock-of-the-walk and could take on anybody at this point.

[@0utc4st1985]

@@virginiahansen320 To be fair to the Centauri Babylon 5 at that point had it's defense grid heavily upgraded before this happens, it was even stated in the upgrading episode they could take on a warship and win because of the heavy weaponry. So it really wasn't an ordinary diplomatic post anymore, it was effectively a stationary battleship.

[@virginiahansen320]

@@0utc4st1985 Yeah, but the Centauri didn't seem to know that. As far as they were concerned they were attacking a disabled enemy warship that could barely move and a diplomatic station belonging to an "inferior" race. Hence them thinking it was a fight they could win.

[@AlexJones-ue1ll]

@@virginiahansen320 Probably mostly this. I dont think they knew the full extent of the upgrades to the B5. That an upgrade had happened could hardly escaped their notice, but the extent was unknown to them. Plus, they targeted mostly the outside structures, not the body of the station itself, expecting to cow Sheridan in a surrender or at least withdrawl of his protection of the Narn cruiser.

[@JH24821]

@@virginiahansen320 It was definitely embarassing. The Centauri were in the wrong but still demanded for Sheridan to apologize so they could save face. They were definitely "drunk" with power after their victory against the Narn.

[@TheKingElfstone]

I think what the world needs most right now is remastered Bab5.

[@tophatminion.7558]

i'd love to watch new shows set in the babylon 5 universe. like the Mars Rebellion the dilgar war stories about the Rangers telepath War or they could flesh out the story where the Rangers help rebuild Earth in secret after they bombed them self back to the dark age. the only problem is I don't know any writers or directors that I think could be trusted to not push there own agenda. I'd rather have nothing than have something like modern Star Wars.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@tophatminion.7558 B5 was always a little darker but it also still had a lot of light hearted moments like Star Trek, Farscape, and Stargate. There are only a few writers/directors/producers I would trust to not turn it abrasively grimdark and edgy like Star Trek Discovery. After the success of newBSG, Walking Dead, GoT, and Breaking Bad it seemed like everyone was jumping on the grimdark bandwagon except The Orville.

[@0utc4st1985]

@@tophatminion.7558 I'd also like to see the original remade with better dialogue. JMS was great at many things, but writing talking scenes just wasn't one of them.

[@kinggoten]

@@tophatminion.7558 JMS said he wouldn't come back unless they were willing to do a big budget film, because thats what the fans deserve or something like that, but the studio doesn't want to invest so heavily without having the rights to the IP so any new B5 content is stuck in limbo

[@casbot71]

Remastering is step one, to show there is still interest in the show. After that can come any new material once it's proven the interest exist. As for basic remastering, that would not be very expensive, video games have better "special effects" in gameplay these days. But to do a top of the line job requires a studio quality setup and … And actually now would be the perfect time, with production shut down on live filming there is only the backlog of current shows/movies that have already completed their studio/location shoots. In a couple of months the backlog will all be done and some very expensive dedicated computers will be sitting idle just Bitcoining ;) For example *_The Expense_* managed to get all the filming done just in time, but a lot of other special effects heavy stuff didn't _…and there won't be any new works in the pipeline_ until the whole Covid-19 thing is over. So the special effects artist can do the remastering, since they can maintain social distancing at their jobs [*insert joke about social distancing being their regular lifestyle]. And in addition to just redoing the space scenes in better detail, perhaps the actual combat can be re-conceptualized to make it even more _"realistic"_ with a few nods to BSG and the Expense with the use of scale and zoom. After all the original shots would've been storyboarded based on what was capable and looked passable back in the day, they could've go into detail because it would look really fake. They could have Earth ships using RCS thrusters while Minbari vessels just turned using gravity control and other details. If the budget allows, and they have the original green screen footage (or are just careful with remapping) they could even redo some interior effects and backgrounds? And maybe even cover over some cheesy alien costumes that failed with CGI characters - steady George Lucas… … There are two other series that are also crying out for this treatment *Deep Space Nine* *Blake's 7* DS9 didn't have shield hits in battles cause it would be to much effort back in the day, and they had to reuse a lot of shots and omit stuff to save money. That is why DS9's combat often contradicts Trek standards - they could still afford to do it correctly sometimes, like with the Defiant fighting the Lakota (upgraded Excelsior class) in the almost civil war coup episodes _Paradise Lost,_ but generally they cut corners. Those big battles would be epic if done with modern effects - and they could draw out the battle scenes and just extend the individual episode length for combat heavy episodes … the big firefight episodes could be a hour (or more) instead of 45 minutes that was forced by the TV schedule. As for Blake's 7, they could _digitally remove the strings holding up the models_ - the effects were _that_ bad, they got old props from Dr Who in the 1970's. Completely redo all effects from the start, and use CGI overlays to cover up the awful practical effects and costumes they used. There are scenes where you can see the gaps in the Aliens "skin" and see the clothes of the guy in costume underneath. As for redoing the space effects, cause of the nature of the IP it wouldn't be very expensive as there were never any complex scenes. There were only captial ships that relied on single main weapons (plasma bolts similar to Romulan plasma torpedoes and the Neutron Blasters of the hero ship - a beam) and they fired in each other at extreme range. So no busy furballs. As I said, the real hassle would be fixing the live action shots. Well this has turned into a real ramble, so I'll also repost it as it's own thread. But basically I agree with you.

[@thegeneral123]

Always loved the design of the Narn heavy cruiser. Stylish yet still a reasonably practical design.

[@dontyouhaveacomrade1585]

100% Those Narn Cruiser were nasty as all get out too. On even terms they hung with most war ships.

[@AndrewJamesWilliams]

The Centauri behaviour was typical of them when you factor in that the Centauri believe themselves to be the 'lion of the galaxy' and able to take on and defeat anyone this side of the Minbari. The thing as well though with the ease with which the Primus battlecruiser went down is that Centauri warships are glass cannons they hit hard but can only take a faction of the fire they dish out in return.

[@JH24821]

I entirely agree. Centauri generally are about speed and hit-and-run attacks. At this point the Vorchans were replacing the aging Primus Battlecruisers as the main ship of their navy. And they were shown to be devastating when operating in groups.

[@Bitchslapper316]

This is pretty much the same with almost every race in B5. There are no force fields or shields in B5, if a ship got hit with directed energy weapon it was noticeably damaged and or destroyed. The only exceptions to this in the show was Vorlon and Shadow tech and ships that were built using their tech. I.E the white star and the Omega-X earth force destroyers. Also the excalibur if you want to count that. This was a major issue earth had during the earth - minbari war. Minbari ships could be damaged and destroyed just like any other ship, an example is when earth force fired on Dukat's ship and killed him. The biggest advantage they had was that their ships couldn't be targeted. The Minbari also had a lot more fire power and still would have won that war but if the earth force ship could target them they would have lost a lot more than they did.

[@DrownedInExile]

Their cruiser design seems rather emblematic of the Centauri nobility. They can dish it out, but can't take it.

[@AndrewJamesWilliams]

@@JH24821 The Vorchan was still a glass cannon though since a squadron of Starfuries could rip one apart in a handful of shots.

[@AndrewJamesWilliams]

@@Bitchslapper316 There were some shield technologies used as Earth Force ships had the e-web an electromagnetic defence field that spread the impact of weapons fire over a wider area of the hull reducing overall damage. Centauri and Minbari ships had gravitic defence fields that did the same thing and the Abbai actually had true shields just like the Vorlons and Shadows though substantially weaker. Also JMS himself said that if it weren't for the stealth Earth would have defeated the Minbari as they were just better at logistics than the tradition orientated Minbari - they actually did major damage to the Minbari economy in commerce raiding as worker caste freighters didn't have stealth capability or any armor - and their weapons were capable of dealing serious damage to Minbari cruisers as the heavy kinetic kick that their plasma bolts packed would shatter the polycrystalline armor that was so effective against beam weapons - effective enough that it routinely took three shots from a Shadow ship to destroy a Minbari cruiser.

[@spiffcats]

At this point the Centauri were very sure of themselves, and probably didnt understand just how powerful babylon 5 was, this seems pretty in line with that.

[@Gomjibar]

True, also if you look at where the Centauri are targeting B5, to me it looks like they were going for crippling the station by targeting the front (command) and what looks to be the rear (the reactor) rather than targeting the vulnerable middle. They probably thought they could quickly knock the station out of the fight and then focus all attention on the Narn cruiser. It shows their arrogance to the defensive capabilities of the station and the power of the weapons. In the series we don't really see the other races deploy the energy interceptors the way humans do (to my knowledge) so it could be they severely underestimated human tactics.

[@virginiahansen320]

Yeah, they didn't seem to appreciate that Babylon 5's weapons had recently been upgraded (something Sheridan initially opposed). They probably thought it was just an Earth diplomatic station and therefore a soft target. The reality is that the Centauri, despite their higher tech level which I'm sure would give them the confidence to assume they were fine, were way outgunned. B5 was initially entirely defensive during the fight until they took damage, at which point Sheridan fired everything and the Centauri were destroyed by the first full volley. I like the fact that the Centauri are clearly more technologically advanced, but that their advantage is negated by a combination of sheer brute force and superior implementation by Earth of the technology they had.

[@joeclerkin2653]

Yeah they definitely underestimated the capabilities of B5. It does highlight how powerful Centauri Ion cannon weapons are though. It took only a couple of hits to destroy the stabilizer. If they had targeted the stations reactors, it would have been a different outcome. The defense grid of the station might have caught most of the incoming fire, but it would only have taken a few shots getting through. Goes to show why the Centauri were able to take on the Narn and practically the entire LONW.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@joeclerkin2653 One other thing to consider is that anytime the station was under attack by a large or powerful force, the goal was to capture the station not destroy it. With the lack of shields or a defensive fleet, I'm surprised any station in B5 could survive a large enough attack. The Centauri fleet probably didn't need any help from the Shadows to destroy that Narn base in "The Coming of Shadows". It would be remarkably easy to destroy B5 if you were willing to sacrifice a few warships.

[@TheRyujinLP]

Also got to keep in mind it had it's weapons grid and targeting system overhawled and that was probably not something that was made very public so the Centauri probably only thought they had to deal with the stations "listed" firepower.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

"I...Apologize. ...I'm sorry. I'm sorry your soldiers were _stupid_ enough to fire on a station with a quarter million people aboard, _including_ your own people. I'm sorry I had to defend myself against an unwarranted attack. And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before blowing them straight to Hell. ...As with everything else, it's the thought that counts."

[@neovoltron25]

Gotta love it

[@ringleader61]

from what i learned from other sources, this type for Centauri cruiser was a variant of their main ship. It was designed for assault operations such as ship boarding and planetary assaults. It's possible this ship was the closest to B5 when they learned of the Narn cruiser and sent it to capture the ship. The captain of this ship may have been very new and had little real experiences outside of the N v C war. He may have been told to "stop the Narn ship from escaping no matter what". With such broad orders and no real understanding of B5 or politics, he just did what any green ship captain would do, he just opened fire at anything he considered hostile and got his ship and crew killed.

[@iainhowe4561]

It was, I think, a Primus class ship. It's quite possible that the Captain was a nobleman with no experience fighting, and a head full of preconceptions about Earth technology levels as a more primitive race, and B5's level of armament. It's also possibly they didn't listen to intel provided by Mollari on that. It's quite possible that the Centauri also expected the Diplomat from Earthgov to simply back their powerplay. And this was one of the first times that Sheridan (who was believed to be a Clark Loyalist) departed from Earth directives. The Centauri captain could have quite easily found his bluff called, the Narn ship moving and simply not known whether to escalate or not - choosing to do so, in the end.

[@ringleader61]

@@iainhowe4561 very possible. But from what i've read about the Centauri, commanding a glorified troopship was not a great honor. He at best got a very watered down version of any intell report and had a lot of propaganda mixed in with it. They also may have considered it a minor issue so sent a minor nobody to handle it.

[@Rohirin]

I loved Sheridan's "apology" afterwards. 😆

[@AlexJones-ue1ll]

"I'm sorry that your captain was stupid enough to fire on a station with a quarter of a million of civilians on board, including his own people. And I am sorry that I waited so long to blast them straight to hell!"

[@madrabbit9007]

I’m looking forward to more B5 content.

[@tophatminion.7558]

i'll second that. be cool if he did a what if or what would happen next kind of vid

[@svenzo1199]

Whoo! Some B5 content, hell yeah! Since the original DVD release has very few commentary tracks, like only for 2 episodes for each season, you could easily make one yourself, would gladly sync it up to the episodes.

[@shawngillogly6873]

I think it's fair to note in the Centauri's slender defense that B5's defenses had recently seen a substantial upgrade. And how much the typical Centauri officer would have known of this hardening of the station is uncertain. That said, firing on their own Ambassador ( and a shadow patron of the Emperor) was moronic even by the Republic's standards.

[@Joe_Lurker]

Wow, what a coincidence. I literally finished re-watching this episode hours before KZbin sent me the notification for this video. Please make more B5 vids. This show deserves much more love than it gets. On to season 3.

[@jamesfry8983]

Ah yes the great lion of the galaxy so afraid of the Narns that they used mass drivers to level most of the planet before even setting foot on there home world

[@Mark-xh8md]

Kinda like how the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Big brave US military, right?

[@tophatminion.7558]

I wouldn't say theyre afraid it's just stupid to throw away soldiers lives and waste time when you have the high ground and the weapons. what shows they were afraid was the fact that they wouldn't attack the narns without the Shadows help.

[@GoatPopsicle]

Mark P since you don’t seem to know much WW2 history. The near nightly B-29 firebombing missions on Japan were way more destructive overall to the civilian population, but even those weren’t bringing the Japanese to the negotiating table. The point of using the nukes was to *Prevent* the need for an allied invasion to end the war. An Invasion plan that was estimated to cost between 6 and 8 million casualties total, most of them Japanese civilians pressed into military service, over the course of at least a year. Plus, whatever deaths occurred from the just started Soviet invasion of Japanese-controlled China and the Korean Peninsula. Those 2 bombs gave the Emperor the political power in council to overrule the military and seek a negotiated surrender. Which was almost stopped when fanatical generals, and their supporters, attempted a coup and tried kidnapping the emperor to prevent the surrender.

[@Mark-xh8md]

I do know, but thanks. Please read the comment I replied to, for context

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@Mark-xh8md context is shit. We are talking about a space science fiction show and your comparing to a conflict that cost the world millions of real lives.

[@rawwset]

More B5! I cant wait until you do The Gathering.

[@ageofgreen99]

I thought it was a miscalculation on the Centauri to fire on B5. Not only did they risk more retaliation from earth, but the Minbari as well. Remember that they were the co-sponsors of the station and there were a lot of Minbari on board. Plus Delenn had some influence, not as much as before, but she was still important. The Centauri, for all their ego, never bothered Minbari. So there is that aspect too.

[@fighterck6241]

That was thw other thing I always wondered about. What if Delenn had died. I'd love to see the Minbari make Cartagia sh*t his pants.

[@23Revan84]

Don’t forget the Vorlons bro, they won’t take that lightly knowing the Centauri are at that time pawns of the Shadows.

[@ryancarroll3957]

This is why I think Londo was making a vid call after this battle and utterly letting loose at someone back home who was in charge of issuing those orders, it could have gone VERY badly for them.

[@void2258]

I think you meant "outmaneuvering the Centauri", not "outmaneuvered by the Centauri".

[@markweston216]

Love babylon 5. Best sci fi show ever created

[@matthewbrandenburg922]

I don't know about the "best" ever, but it certainly set the stage for almost all modern television series. Up until Babylon 5, very few American shows (it was common in Japan) were serialized with storylines existing for more than a single episode. Now, it's impossible to find a show that doesn't have a season long story arc. There are certainly places where the writing suffers and you can also tell where the limited budget shows up as well, but for it's day, it was groundbreaking. It was recently on Amazon Prime and I rewatched it, the story holds up really well.

[@FireflyFlynn]

Your coverage of Babylon 5 and Firefly are refreshing, I like this direction...

[@Topher7527]

I do love watching those Starfury strafing runs.

[@jlokison]

I've always enjoyed B5 and the more complex and realistic internal national politics the various races have. That said I always thought it kind of odd that the humans were the most innovative and curious species of the younger races. The Minbari hadn't really done anything new since the last Vorlon/Shadow war. The Centauri had at one point been innovative, curious and aggressive but after they built an Empire they just seemed to decide, good enough. The non-aligned worlds are for the most part limited to their home systems with maybe a couple of colonies and again for the most part happy with the technology they have. The Narn are a text book conquered and enslaved people that freed themselves from their colonizers and are now failing at not becoming what they hate, there technological advances are mostly just refinements of Centauri tech to better suit themselves. All of these races have known of the others and the gate network left behind by the Vorlons and most haven't bothered developing any world they can't live on easily because the network gives them access to easily obtained resources and trade for the most part. Through out the series this history influences everything including the Humans arrival on the scene. The Centauri first contact and attempt to con the humans into thinking they were a lost colony, didn't last long partially because biological differences were noticed and because the humans had no intention of being a client state. The humans had already colonized Mars and were developing the entire Solar system and the first things they did after trading with the Centauri and Narn was start reverse engineering things, or learn how to copy them. The humans rather than just moving old portable gates started building their own, exploring beyond the regular established paths and establishing multiple colonies in unclaimed and uninhabited systems. The Dilgar came along and since the three other "major" powers decided not to get directly involved the humans decided they would defend their trade allies they had amongst the nonaligned worlds. This didn't help with human egotism but established to the humans that they could accomplish anything if they put the effort into it and the brute force style of Earth Force ships reflects the make the most of what you have attitude, combined with a lack of trust in the universe being a safe place. The humans especially those from what used to be the USA seemed to have adopted Teddy Roosevelt's outlook on a lot of things. That long winded thought process gone through is all about how all of that influenced everything about this battle in a way. The Narn were too proud to ask for all the help B5 was willing to give. The Centauri arrived with the attitude that everything was going to go their way because of Divine right. The Humans were a confused muddle because despite appearances we still aren't used to being a unified race and strong willed leaders are going to do their own thing. The Humans started all defense but as soon as the Centauri fired on B5 of course the humans pulled out the biggest sticks they had a took a swing with them it's what humans do when threatened or scared, and we do it because it works most of the time (Earth Minbari War not so much).

[@jamiecampbell8855]

As always, B5 battles are the best. However, the Centauri decision to open fire on B5 was stupid. Firstly, they had just signed a non-aggression pact with earth. Secondly, the station also had Centauri citizens on it. Thirdly, it also had citizens of two far more technological species: the Minbari and the Vorlons. If they had been successful in their attack, angering the latter two species would have been incredibly dangerous.

[@lexington476]

One of the best B5 episodes.

[@Thespanglerangler]

That Centauri ship was the winner of the FAAFO award that day.

[@dagonfell1566]

great video and great show

[@aycemanm8151]

Oh yes one of my favorite Moments in Babylon 5 a catalyst of many things to come, what I believed happened was During the Episode "Gropos" Babylon 5's defensive systems were significantly updated enough to take on a war ship (a Decision Earth would come to regret in season 3). The Centauri probably did not know this or just how much. Either way stupid tatics, no fighter cover and they should have focused on just the Narn ship mission accomplished you piss off Sheridan but who cares especially when Earth Gov just having signed a treaty would have blessed this move.

[@DrownedInExile]

I agree, incredibly stupid move for the Centauri to open fire on the station. They must have known at this point that B5 had its defenses upgraded. They should have concentrated fire on the Narn warship. Or even better - don't shoot first at all. Just blockade the jump gate. That still amounts to an act of aggression, but still puts B5 in the politically-unenviable position of having to fire first. The Centauri probably succumbed to the same hubris that gripped Earth after the Dilgar War. Having beaten the Narn in under a year, and wiping the floor with the League worlds, they thought they were indestructible. Last mistake their cruiser's Captain would ever make.

[@Kainlarsen]

The Centauri were riding high on victory at that point, so it seems plausible for them to think they can take on the station and the cruiser at the same time.

[@michaelhviper]

Ever since watching this episode for the first time I always thought the politician was an idiot. Sheridan was in perfect rights to help the Narn ship. There were procedures and regulations in support of his decision to help them. And he wanted to make Sheridan apologize for doing it and defending his station. The way the episode is edited we don't see if he apologizes or not, but his sarcastic take with the Mirror is gold.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

I think the most interesting aspect is the line that Sheridan has to walk - it's clear that Clarke wanted a Centauri victory and we later learn why - but this for me is when the rebellion became inevitable

[@matg919]

Love the B5 content.

[@AndrewAustinFrustrated]

This happened after new defensive systems were fitted to B5 the Centauri might have been acting on old intel and didn't know the station was now too powerful for a single ship to attack. Without the help of the shadows it's doubtful the centauri could have beaten the narn hence their hesitation in provoking the conflict until the shadows had done significant damage to the narns. It's why B5 is still my fav sci fi show so many levels to all the situations with nothing being black and white so much more realistic then star trek.

[@legrat6678]

Great video and wonderful to see some B5 content! Just wanted to say I can understand the Centauri captain's reasoning. B5 has guns, but at this point they're not very modern (the station gets its guns upgraded in season 3 which implies the station - built for peace after all - wasn't well armed). More importantly, B5 isn't armored. It's a big air balloon target in space which is so primitive in its technology from a Centauri pov that it can't even generate it's own artificial gravity without having to spin; a dangerous thing from an engineering pov and VERY dangerous for a battle station. B5 isn't designed for combat. It's a target, not a tank. The Centauri captain shot across their bow so to speak to remind them that the next shots could be into that big spinning can full of pressurized air. He figured that as a vulnerable target with no skin in the game to defend the Narn, and assurances from Earth Gov they wouldn't support the Narn, that the human commander would back down. He miscalculated. Sheridan reacted as a military commander; a good defence was a powerful offensive response. A wise decision as her guns were really all B5 had going for it. It paid off, but did spark a nasty diplomatic rift neither humans or Centauri wanted, something else the Centauri captain probably knew and figured would dispose Sheridan to backing down. Anyway, those were my thoughts when I saw the episode. Cheers!

[@rfletch62]

"And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to hell." Best non-apology ever!

[@mrichar9]

Babylon 5... THUMBS UP

[@timothywestern6488]

Hey just an alert, there is a strange non b5 video linked at the end of this playlist, I don't think it belons as its not under your channel.

[@KatrinaLeFaye]

Please give the year for our information on Bab5 breakdowns.

[@ryank5424]

If I recall Sheridan has to apologize to the Centauri.....I love the apology he wants to say 😎

[@gilmadreth680]

"You can word the apology any way you like." Those were, without a doubt, the 9 most regretted words in that diplomat's career.

[@chriseash6497]

I find it funny that the Centauri warship largely missed. I wonder if it was supposed to be an across their bow warning shot to stay out of the fight. I also think that the Centauri Warship likely burned itself out to get there she didn’t fire her big guns during the fight.

[@mattwho81]

The Centauri Primus was not a glass cannon merely badly commanded. First the captain engaged in a three way fight, the Narn cruiser, Babylon 5 and the Starfurys. He had to split his firepower three ways while they concentrated theirs. Second he didn’t bring any fighter support, the starfurys could get in close and do serious damage. Third he closed into range of the defence grid, sacrificing the Centauri chief advantage over human weapons. Had the captain hung back, blocked the jump gate and called for reinforcements this could have gone very differently.

[@kefka1911]

People seriously underestimate how strong Humans were in B5. Earth could school almost anyone except the Mimbari and the First Ones. Lol, oh man. The Mimbari were having NONE of our shiat in that series.

[@JH24821]

Earth would struggle against the Centauri though. Not that we couldn't score a victory but they are still more advanced and their fast and manoeuvrable Vorchans could be a real problem when they're attacking in numbers.

[@tophatminion.7558]

earth had to buy weapons from the narns who got them from what the centauri left. so does that mean earth weapon were not as good as centauri weapons at that time? the weapons were particle beam cannons, energy mines, pulse cannons. i surpose after fighting with everything theyve got in the Mimbari war the weapons tech would be pretty high. plus all there ships would be new after all there losses

[@John-wj4dp]

i always thought humans were not as developed as the other races. eg they dont have gravitiy tech like the rest. but there weapons were powerful cause they fought against the most powerfull alien race (except shadows, vorlons)

[@kefka1911]

The Omega Destroyers would bitch slap the Centauri and the new Warlocks would be even better. The Earth - Centauri war if it happened would be more fair then the all out curb stomping we got from the Mimbari or the insane one sided Narn - Shadow fights.

[@JH24821]

@@kefka1911 The Centauri shouldn't be underestimated. Unlike the Minbari, the Centauri are not as rigid in their ways and are in many ways just like us. And if there's any truth in the battle scene from Lost Tales the Centauri can still surprise us even when we have Warlocks.

[@eddiegaltek]

The Centauri don't necessarily know the strength the offensive power of the station. They would assume it has a strong defence but may know it also packed a punch. So they attack it early in the fight to breakthrough B5's strong defences; not expecting to get hit back with greater force.

[@TheDetailsMatter]

So... can anyone explain to me what "time on target" indicates? All I know is that once Sheridan ordered it, that Centauri cruiser just seemed to disappear under a cloak of gunfire.

[@jameslrbrand2002uk]

Time On Target (TOT) is the military co-ordination of artillery fire by many weapons so that all the munitions arrive at the target at roughly the same time. The military standard for coordinating a time-on-target strike is plus or minus three seconds from the prescribed time of impact.

[@sandal_thong]

I loved seeing that piece of Babylon 5 get torn off in the season 3 opener. "Babylon 5 was our last, best hope for peace. It failed." Cue music and visuals.

[@BirdOPrey5]

Is the video from this from Babylon 5? If so the quality isn't nearly as bad as I was led to believe.

[@Palmerrip]

Seeing B5 Lore videos = 😊

[@StevenHouse1980]

This Attack was Arogant, foolish and hap hazard not planed out. more like just expecting to win versus the Narns and B5, "Just Because, How dare thay apose us!" I guess it was commanded by a bafoon from one of the lesser nobel familys. Just the fire power of B5 at that time would be enough to concern a smart captain. then add to a fight, the fire power of the Narn ship, plus the combined fire power of all the starfurys on top of that and... no bad idea. As for re-targeting to detach one of the two the cargo stabilizer struts? I can only guess that dum fear might be a factor, Fear of the censor readings of a mag-lev system in that area, that may have been a Railgun. but was more than likely part of cargo transfer docking system.

[@frankclarady6643]

That Centauri warship was captained by the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Buffoons!!

[@Hadeswpb]

Sir much love to you and your Babylon 5 content. B5 IMO has more going for it then DS9. Not a hater I love both but B5 will always be my first love.

[@5KAmenshawn]

Time on target - When you absolutely, without question, want something very, very dead.

[@matthewbrandenburg922]

Well, in the Centauri Republic, it is definitely a "who you know" system of advancement and it was not uncommon to see people in positions of power that had zero business being there. I'm guessing that's the case here. You had the kid of a moderately powerful House who really wants to make a name for himself so he over-eagerly jumps into battle hoping to impress someone. Afterall, the destruction of Babylon 5 while it was defending Narn Cruiser would be a huge accomplishment! I'm not sure how the Centauri would have reacted. Well, they would have declared that was the plan the whole time publicly, but privately they would have been very upset. Not even the Shadows wanted Babylon 5 destroyed, they could have done that at any time.

[@wangbot47]

Yeah that Centauri captain was a dumb dumb

[@mirage2101]

Considering the difference in technology with the Centauri I’m surprised how this battle went. I always thought the Centauri were nearer the Minbari, having artificial gravity and such.

[@gilmadreth680]

They were, but remember back to the Earth Minbari war. The Narns captured a metric butt ton of Centauri weapons when they kicked them off the Narn homeworld. They then sold some of those weapons to Earth who undoubtedly had the foresight to deconstruct and analyze the makeup of a least a few examples.

[@sid2112]

Dude, good intro.

[@jyralnadreth4442]

The Centauri Captain went Yolo.....and got splatted...B5 was armed to the teeth and was a target you dont want to upset

[@DanNi-pc7en]

How will this end?

[@darkwolflord]

What episode was this?

[@razgriz501]

I understand your point about the League, but to be fair, expecting the League to help Earth against the Minbari would be like expecting Monacco to help the French against the Germans in WW2. The power disparity was enormous. Still a dick move by the League to be sure, but one I can understand from a tactical view

[@vrwhammer001]

tactics, there were no tactics used except that of a bully

[@milanondrak5564]

That Centauri cruiser didn't stand a chance in that episode. The starfuries alone were enough to cripple it, and being in range of B5s main defence grid and also being stationary, the Centauri cruiser was a simple kill. Not even an inconvenience.

[@name-vi6fs]

Oh shit you have some Babylon 5 stuff? Nice.

[@kitfo18]

What tactics? This was just a stupid attack. As far as tactics it was i know let just shoot at everyone and see what happens. After that exactly what you would expect happened. They should have entered space, Covered the gate and then had a stand off. That would have been a much better tactic. They had no chance against B5 and if you attack the Narn cruiser and hit a B5 fighter you give them the ok to attack you. Sit back at the gate and block it. Wait for things to get calm and then open a single salvo of fire on a main system of the cruiser. Engines if possible. You still keep your enemy from escaping while greatly redusing the chances of hitting any of the B5 ships. After this you leave more time to stal and talk while another ship jumps in from behind and totally takes everyone by surprise and now you have a good chance of destroying the cruiser with out bringing any of the B5 ships into the fight. Then just leave.

[@Mark-xh8md]

By siding with the Narn, Sheridan had, technically, committed an act of war. Thank the Great Maker that the Centauri were not game.

[@Chaosmage42]

if you think about it the centarie don't know just how powerful B5 is, the weapons upgrade they get in season 2 makes them equal to a warship if not more powerful, which does make sense. If the centarie don't know just how powerful it is their arrogance which is high probably leads them to think firing on them do some major damage and they will back off, and also blow up the narn ship but B5 returns fire in kind and its suddenly the bigger threat to them. and the centarie failing to realize they should wave the white flag keep fire and get drawn into a slugging match you don't see as many shots of the narn ship so my thinking is they started focusing on the station and thats how the narn got by as the station is suddenly a bigger threat to them and its weapons are what are ripping them apart. plus consider that the centarie are behaving like most colonial armies their use to fighting people who can't really hurt them in a meaningful way. They may take some casualties but their force is so much greater that they have been steam rolling through other forces against them. So they aren't thinking tactically they are thinking hit it hard enough and it will break.

[@sundoga4961]

The Centauri behaviour can be expressed in one word: Arrogance.THEY were the great and mighty Centauri Republic, and they weren't about to let a bunch of johnny-come-lately Earthers tell them what to do. This is combined with a couple of other Centauri attributes: Thoroughness and ruthlessness. They clearly intended to destroy the Narn ship and to teach the Earthers a lesson - either by forcing B5 to surrender or outright destroying it. (Probably not the latter - they were aware that would anger the Minbari, and we know the Centauri respected and feared the Minbari. Even so, the Centauri captain was way too complacent. He should at least have launched Sentri fighters to engage the Starfuries.

[@bunglechild]

Centauri Captain was just dumb, jumps into the area without blockading the gate, demands the station hand over the Narn ship without any way of forcing them to surrender other than 'we'll blow you up then' as a backup and then proceeds to cause a potential diplomatic incident by targeting a neutral station filled with ambassadors from various races and then shooting at it and forgetting that their orders were just to take the Narn ship not attack Babylon 5. Oh and did this without fighter and/or escort ship support, just stupid. I'm surprised Londo didn't call his government and ask 'er, you do know I'm on this station your ship was shooting at right?'

[@casbot71]

*Babylon 5* [and *Deep Space Nine* and *Blake's 7* are crying out to be remastered], and then Babylon 5 could get new material. Remastering is step one, to show there is still interest in the show. After that can come any new material once it's proven the interest exist. As for basic remastering, that would not be very expensive, video games have better "special effects" in gameplay these days. But to do a top of the line job requires a studio quality setup and … And actually now would be the perfect time, with production shut down on live filming there is only the backlog of current shows/movies that have already completed their studio/location shoots. In a couple of months the backlog will all be done and some very expensive dedicated computers will be sitting idle just Bitcoining ;) For example *_The Expense_* managed to get all the filming done just in time, but a lot of other special effects heavy stuff didn't _…and there won't be any new works in the pipeline_ until the whole Covid-19 thing is over. So the special effects artist can do the remastering, since they can maintain social distancing at their jobs [*insert joke about social distancing being their regular lifestyle]. And in addition to just redoing the space scenes in better detail, perhaps the actual combat can be re-conceptualized to make it even more _"realistic"_ with a few nods to BSG and the Expense with the use of scale and zoom. After all the original shots would've been storyboarded based on what was capable and looked passable back in the day, they couldn't go into detail because it would look really fake. They could have Earth ships using RCS thrusters while Minbari vessels just turned using gravity control and other details as well. If the budget allows, and they have the original green screen footage (or are just careful with remapping) they could even redo some interior effects and backgrounds? And maybe even cover over some cheesy alien costumes that failed with CGI characters - steady George Lucas… … There are two other series that are also crying out for this treatment *Deep Space Nine* *Blake's 7* DS9 didn't have shield hits in battles cause it would be to much effort back in the day, and they had to reuse a lot of shots and omit stuff to save money. That is why DS9's combat often contradicts Trek standards - they could still afford to do it correctly sometimes, like with the Defiant fighting the Lakota (upgraded Excelsior class) in the almost civil war coup episodes _Paradise Lost,_ but generally they cut corners. Those big battles would be epic if done with modern effects - and they could draw out the battle scenes and just extend the individual episode length for combat heavy episodes … the big firefight episodes could be a hour (or more) instead of 45 minutes that was forced by the TV schedule. As for Blake's 7, they could _digitally remove the strings holding up the models_ - the effects were _that_ bad, they got old props from Dr Who in the 1970's. Completely redo all effects from the start, and use CGI overlays to cover up the awful practical effects and costumes they used. There are scenes where you can see the gaps in the Aliens "skin" and see the clothes of the guy in costume underneath. As for redoing the space effects, cause of the nature of the IP it wouldn't be very expensive as there were never any complex scenes. There were only captial ships that relied on single main weapons (plasma bolts similar to Romulan plasma torpedoes and the Neutron Blasters of the hero ship - a beam) and they fired in each other at extreme range. So no busy furballs. As I said, the real hassle would be fixing the live action shots. I originally posted this as a reply to another comment, but I rambled so much it probably deserves it's own thread.

[@Agarwaen]

B5 was filmed in wide screen (but shots were framed for 4:3) and since space content was done on computers one should think it would lend itself well to a remaster. Sadly apparently the cgi assets were lost, and the TNG remaster was a bit of a financial flop, so I doubt we'll see this. Hell, if you could get some actors who could lend themselves as well to the roles I wouldn't mind a reboot, with 5 seasons in the manner as planned without story parts rushed to fit into the time they thought they had available. JMS seems content to not do much more with the B5 property though.

[@roguerifter9724]

The League would have been no real help to Earth during the Minbari War and everyone knew it. Pius everyone knew Earth had committed a blatant act of war, actually more then one really, against the Minbari (And that's even before they found out who the attack had been launched against) so why would, and why should the League intervene? I don't think defense pacts apply when the power trying to invoke the pact launched an unprovoked attack on another nation only to find themselves getting hammered to toothpaste by the counter strike. As for this battle itself the Centuari were idiots and how they failed to block the gate is a very good question. And of course Sheridan ordered B5's barrage to overwhelm the Centuari defense grid by having all the fire arrive at once though the visual effects didn't show that well IMO.

[@traviswatts9082]

Rogue Rifter Shut up. Blatant act of war? You must just take in the spoon fed plot the writers feed you. The Minbari opened their gun ports targeting the Earth vessels then proceeded to “ scan “ them which shut down their ability to communicate or react otherwise. The Captain cannot wait for the opposing ship to first Why? Because your dead or unable to return fire which still means your dead. Ever watch Star Trek? How many times have all the Captains NOT scan or take any other action that could be perceived as a threat? What happens when you point a gun at a policeman??? Does he wait for you to shoot him first? Ever heard of the Cuban missile crises? Once the missile were operational it would have been too late thus the US would have had to strike first if a deal had not been struck. That’s why any foreign aircraft which gets within striking range of the carrier will be shot down. While the Earth Captain is portrayed as comically arrogant he followed established reasonable protocol. It’s the Minbari who then go on a genicidal rampage with plans to kill every man, woman and child of the human race. They took no prisoners systematically targeting any and all survivors. Talk to me about war crimes. You need to go sit down and learn to look at things from both perspectives with the knowledge available to those in the situation at the time.

[@demarcusfaulkner7411]

I like how Babylon 5 had different things going on that had nothing to do with the humans and Earth. The tactics used by the naurn could have been better. However I have to give them credit for surviving.

[@JH24821]

They would likely have been able to fight on for longer if the Centauri didn't "cheat" by using the Shadows.

[@dareka9425]

Here I was just sitting around waiting for the current pandemic to die out and suddenly the Centauri are expanding their empire.

[@ryank5424]

I personally believe the Centauri were really stupid here. Why risk an all out war with earth over one narn cruiser?. Just hunt it down when it leaves the system.

[@HeadlessChickenTO]

IIRC, the Cantauri battlecruiser wasn't that great of a ship. Toe to toe vs a Narn battlecruiser, Narn would win despite being a far more technologically inferior ship. Only reason why they were kicking ass during the war was because of Shadows would soften up key targets before the Centauri moved in. But their medium cruisers were a force to be reckoned. If 2 of those plus the battlecruiser showed up as a taskforce hunting remnant Narn military assets, they would have accomplished their mission and inflict decent damage on B5. The medium cruisers would have shredded through the Starfury squad and made short work with the lumbering injured Narn cruiser, while the battlecruiser covered their attack from the station's defenses.

[@darwinxavier3516]

Well considering we actually got to see those two in a 1v1 firefight and the Narn ship "won", you're not wrong.

[@poseidon5003]

The Centauri aren't much more technologically advanced than Earth. It's just that they control a larger area of space and possess much larger navy. An Omega Class destroyer is capable of holding it's own against a Centauri cruiser, and vice versa. So could a Narn cruiser. I don't get why you have that attitude. They aren't the Minbari.

[@hahan00b]

Because the centauri are said to be second only to the minbari in tech and power. And obviously an omega could hold its own, it was designed specifically to tackle minbari ships. Which are more advanced than the centauri. I have my issues with this guy too, but this isn't one of them.

[@poseidon5003]

@@hahan00b I don't really have an issue with Lore. Why would I have an issue with any competent channel that provides quality Trek entertainment and discussion? I just don't agree with his assessment. No big deal. It's like a smaller NATO nation as compared to the U.S. They have the same tech. Access to mostly the same equipment yet if this nation in some bazarro world were to war with the U.S., they would get trounced. The smaller nation has the same tech, just not as much. It's the same with the Centauri and Earth AFTER the Minbari war of course.

[@hahan00b]

@@poseidon5003 The thing is, if only one specific class can do something (how many omega did earth even have? Do we get any estimates?) They may now be equal in tech, but until it's used on a wider scale, you may as well not have it. By the end of the series, earth is second only to the minbari for fighters as well. But how widespread are they? If I have the best ship in the universe, but only one, and every other ship I have is outclassed then technically yes I am more or equal, but in reality not really.

[@poseidon5003]

@@hahan00b You countered your own point. Tech does not equal military power. Look at the Nazi's. They had the highest tech yet lost.

[@hahan00b]

@@poseidon5003 they had nowhere near the best tech. In some ways yes. In others not even close. Such as radar. My point was that tech also needs numbers. Earth has one capital, and one fighter that is equalish in capability. That does not make them on par with the centauri.

[@kevin9218]

A showcase of pure Centauri arrogance and stupidity all in the same package, how efficient of them. Somehow believing they could destroy both a narn heavy cruiser and a massive space station, although built by the somewhat technologically inferior Earth alliance. In any case the station is a very large target and will take sustained firepower to disable, and is equipped with a multitude it's own weapons that may be less powerful per shot than the Centauri, can still do major damage in large numbers. Also the station houses several squadrons of star furies which are shown time and again to be one of the most effective small fighter craft in the b5 universe. As far as we can tell the Centauri warship had no fighter carrying capability or choose not to launch any for some reason. Even if they had managed to disable both the cruiser and the station they would be a sitting duck against the fighters. The only way they could possibly win this fight would be to concentrate all fire on the narn and pray that Sheridan didn't back up his promise of protection. By attacking the station you guarantee retaliation.

[@jgosse013]

League of Non-Aligned Worlds

[@SurfTrekTonics]

Lore did you Marry Admiral Nechayev? :)

[@thegeneral123]

2:47 you contradict yourself.

[@LoreReloaded]

How so

[@thegeneral123]

@@LoreReloaded "The Narn vessel is slow as hell, so how it is outmanoeuvred by the Centari is beyond me." That is a contradiction. It should be, how it is not outmanoeuvred. Centari vessels also had a hybrid gravametric drive so would outmaneuver all the races short of the Minbari for ships of a given size.

[@LoreReloaded]

Ahh that was me misspeaking.. meant that the narn somehow our maneuver the centauri

[@jackfrostwacked]

Cool game New subscriber Play live nightly

[@nuck97]

What's B5 like? As a kid, I could never even try to watch it. The CGI was (and still is) awful. But now that I'm an old fart, such things don't matter as much to me anymore. What's the story like? Is this show worth investing some time into?

[@danehutchins3845]

I loved B5 and watched through it again a few yrs ago. While the CG for season 1 is laughable it gets quite a bit better as time went on. It becomes quite good when you consider when it was made. IMHO it is well worth the watch if you haven't seen it before.

[@TheKingElfstone]

The 'in space' CGI is better than basically anything else from that era - not always as good as models (like TNG say) but better than anybody else's CGI was.

[@Mark-xh8md]

Sheridan decided to reward the Narn for kissing his ass, which the Centauri wouldn't do, and worked to plunge Earth into an interstellar war with one of the galaxy's great powers. A war which, by his own words in a previous interview, we'd stand no chance of winning. And which would be fought for no good reason at all. The size of that man's ego makes WOH G64 look tiny by comparison