Part Two: Stockton Rush: Inventor of the Deathsub | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

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Part Two: Stockton Rush: Inventor of the Deathsub | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined again by Andrew Ti to continue to discuss Oceangate CEO, Stockton Rush.
Original Air Date: June 29, 2023
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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[@thebadshave503]

A bit of clarification on why the OceanGate marketing called tourists 'crew members' (mission specialists specifically). It's not deflective marketing to make rich people feel important, it's just that if you acknowledge that people on a vessel are there as passengers, all sorts of laws and regulations internationally come into play. If you classify them as crew (even crew with zero responsibilities) you get away with way more reckless shit because there's far fewer laws and way more expectation of risk.

[@bogdiworksV2]

That being said, the "mission specialists" totally dug the title.

[@raycearcher5794]

"Boss! Dis window is crackin!" "You dumb git! Dat means it's WORKIN! If ya can hear the cracking then yer still alive, an that means the boat ain't sunk!"

[@CharlieNoodles]

I saw an interview with a father and son who were supposed to have been on the fatal voyage but had pulled out. The father was keen to go but his son started looking into OceanGate and stated having doubts about it. When the father pulled out Stockton flew out to meet him to try to talk him back into going. He (Stockton) flew there in his own two seater experimental aircraft that he’d built himself. The father said in the interview that it dawned on him that here was a guy (Stockton) who had flown to see him in an experimental aircraft of his own making, to convince him to get on an experimental submersible. The father realised that Stockton’s perception of risk was very different to his own and that made up his mind not to go. I can’t imagine how dangerous Stockton would have been as a pilot given that his attitude to risk and safety culture was “I’ve don’t this before and it was fine so all these safety rules are unnecessary and just get in the way of me doing what I want to do”.

[@sholem_bond]

Thank God the father was able to change his mind based on the new information; that's surprisingly rare, especially with older rich guys.

[@ItsNket]

"You're remembered for the rules you break" is a perfect quote for this guy and definitely not in the way he thought it was going to be

[@CookiesRiot]

Someone on Thunderf00t's post-investigation video merely listed several Stockton Rush safety quotes, and got a chain of replies defending Rush as an intelligent and good person. I, personally, don't see how either good or intelligent can apply to somebody deliberately and proudly ignoring safety regulations that have been written because of previous harm. If the director of Boeing stepped out and gave a speech about how safety is a waste and we should break the rules, the FAA would be picking the company's bones clean within days.

[@tjl9458]

The reason why the game controller is kind of problematic is that you're relying on a bluetooth connection to control a sub. There's really no fallback if the connection fails (which happens all the time when gaming, but nobody gets killed).

[@joelopez7459]

I didn't even consider it being wireless 😅

[@sholem_bond]

AFAIK using personal or non-industrial equipment for industrial purposes (like steering a vehicle others will ride in, or that you plan to drive on a public road, or manipulating a drone or probe, etc - idk let's call that "industrial use" for purposes of this discussion) is often a problem for that type of reason. Industrial-use equipment is held to different standards and produced with more of an expectation that it's going to be used more frequently and for longer (and for more critical tasks), and so usually needs to be more reliable and hard-wearing. I know nothing about gaming or controllers, but between the controller and the submersible itself at least, would some kind of Ethernet cable-type situation potentially help the controller maintain a stable connection, instead of using Bluetooth exclusively? Is that a possibility with those devices? (I know a cable couldn't be rigged up between the sub and the boat it gets launched from, for obvious reasons.)

[@horticulturalist7818]

The "youre going to die robot" seems infinitely more cruel than just imploding instantly without knowing it's going to happen

[@bluegum6438]

Did he really think that he could somehow outrun carbon fibre failing and ascend in the nick of time? The arrogance required to not even understand the basics of the subject while claiming everyone else is doing it wrong. I think he had genuinely internalised that he was somehow immune to consequences, because his life was so charmed up until 400 atmospheres of water pressure turned his sub into a golf ball.

[@Virjunior01]

Oh, they knew. You'd likely hear groaning sounds first

[@theknack101]

Honestly the only one I felt genuinely bad about on that sub was the teenager. Especially since I read he was scared to get on the thing.

[@ohnoagremlin]

if it makes you feel better he took the seat voluntarily from his mom and wouldn't actually be counted as a "teen" by a lot of adult entertainment sites, dude was an adult frankly

[@pjlusk7774]

Yeah, this kid got dragooned onto this thing to humor his dad. He didn't deserve this.

[@marocat4749]

yeah he was doing itfor his dad.

[@leitmotif7268]

@@ohnoagremlinbreaks my heart for the mother. I can’t imagine losing my husband and son like that, wealth aside. Poor kid may have been a legal adult but we don’t really grow into our adult brain until about age 26. He still had a whole life ahead of him.

[@sholem_bond]

Especially as someone who is an adult (older than that kid was) and still gets pressured by my parents into doing things sometimes (luckily nothing nearly this serious, dangerous, or expensive as this). Especially when said parents have more money than you, or you depend on them financially or logistically for some stuff (transportation, health insurance, and scheduling appointments by phone, mostly, in my case as an autistic & chronically ill person). Whomst among us...

[@benjaminmatheny6683]

I think the thing that annoys me is that if it was a redneck in a modified storage container thinking he was going to dive to the Titanic, no one would have a problem pointing and laughing. Something about their social status (and it's implied education) means that making fun of them gets push back.

[@skepticalbadger]

What pushback? All I see is mockery.

[@mattjk5299]

He's talking specifically about weird vaugely right wing people on the internet who think anyone making fun of the guys on the sub/Stockton are terrible people or commies or something. I get what he means but in my experience most non chronically online people just said "huh super rich guys doing weird shit"

[@jakemonkey7]

I think I would still have reservations about how people are laughing about it all. I am happy to laugh at them for "that was stupid and it's funny because it was stupid and predictable" but I am a lot less comfortable with the suggestion of "that was stupid and predictable and so they deserved to die and we should hope they do" which seems to be a fair amount of people laughing at this (not all but a decent number)

[@banjohero1182]

what are you talking about? i would start a religion around that man and i think i would stand a decent chance of success

[@PMickeyDee]

​@@mattjk5299I hate to break it to you, it's not specifically online, I was chided IRL for questioning the rich assholes (this was before the implosion was announced)

[@dezlyn7387]

Great episode! Because what OceanGate was doing was illegal (charging passengers to dive at depth in an unclassed sub), they changed the advert narrative from "passengers" to "mission specialists" who were investing in their participation in a "research" expedition in a dangerous experimental vessel.

[@PMickeyDee]

It wasn't _illegal,_ though. They very specifically worked inside of legal loopholes to ensure that. They operated a vessel that had no legal requirements to be classed in international waters outside of legal jurisdiction of any nation. There is international maritime law, but this kind of vessel slips directly through loopholes in the verbiage of those statues. TBC, this isn't a defense of the blatantly unethical operation that should fall under some laws & regulations.

[@Virjunior01]

Jargon is such a fucking blight

[@sangomasmith]

Another fact about the carbon fibre hull is that it wasn't made by using an autoclave (a pressure oven that compresses everything together and drives out bubbles and other defects). It was apparently done using hand layup around a mandrel. So this thing was made with less effort than is usually used to make carbon fibre bonnets. Edit: Aw yiss, 40K reference!

[@marocat4749]

only orkz could make that work

[@DoveAlexa]

Who does this disaster please more: Slaanesh for billionaire excess or Korn for the snap crackle squish?

[@thindigital]

Turns out the inquest heard it was autoclaved, but 5 times as 5 layers were 'glued' together The USCG hearing was wild.

[@CelynBrum]

I used to work in quality at a factory that made composite parts for aerospace, and it caused me pain in my soul to hear that the thing was creaking and cracking every time it went down. As an example of how composites behave under pressure: I once personally witnessed a line manager stick a scrap part, designed to hold up under internal pressure, in a desk vise. He tightened it until the part was completely flattened. As soon as it came out of the vise it sprang back into shape, and to a casual glance it looked completely unharmed. So a solid composite part, strong enough to fly, could be completely crushed with fairly little compressive pressure and show very little sign of it afterwards. We specifically had design features to show us when parts had been dropped, so we or our customers could immediately reject them. I cannot emphasize enough that if you think there is a chance your composite is cracked you should assume it is. Also, the technology for checking composite for cracks? You can CT scan them. It's expensive, but worth it for thick composite that might have internal cracks. Composite cracks will absolutely propagate. And when composite snaps, it sounds like a gunshot. Incidentally, I'm inclined to believe Boeing that they didn't sell Stockton Rush expired composites. In aerospace you do *not* fuck around and find out, especially when it comes to composites. That caution gets bigger the higher up the food chain you go. Also, the industry as a whole has strict rules about disposal of scrap product. Selling expired product would come under "counterfeit product" and could potentially get a company in a lot of trouble. To be clear, aerospace manufacturing shares an ISO standard with defense manufacturing and many companies do both. Getting in trouble can be actually serious (not a slap on the wrist) for a company, because if there is one way to upset countries, it is to mishandle military assets.

[@skepticalbadger]

There's not much left to learn about Titanic the ship, but it's now a unique marine habitat. There is absolutely stuff worth exploring, just not by idiots like Rush.

[@jamiefrontiera1671]

actually, not true from a research standpoint. i went to a museum exhibit about it on its 100th anniversary. The ship is being eaten up. There are older wrecked ships in the ocean, but this one might not exist in 20-50 years (i forget when they said it won't exist anymore). So, trying to find that answer is one thing scientists can still learn about the titanic. FYI i would recommend seeing any titanic exhibit. Seeing a chandelier warped under the immense pressure that they brought up is excellent. Although i agree with you that idiots like Rush shouldn't be in charge of exploring the Titanic.

[@vylbird8014]

Is there anything that needs manned exploration to study though? There are very few manned submersibles that can go so deep, but ROVs are a lot more common and obviously safer.

[@marocat4749]

its also an interesting massgrave. The dude whofound it as right,it should have bn a least respecte as massgrave tonot scalp it

[@ViewtifulJoe8463]

I'm just here to advocate for a 40K episode, though. I'd watch the hell out of that.

[@DoveAlexa]

BTB: Emperor of Man for first ep?

[@Okijuben]

Stockton's predilection for carbon fiber seems to go back to the small engine plane he built. The story he allegedly told was that everyone said it wasn't safe to build a plane out of composite materials and he proved them wrong. It seems he had a chip on his shoulder about 'expert opinion' by the time he got to building subs. High levels of Dunning Krueger.

[@theautisticguitarist7560]

Some people want to be special so bad they will shun all conventional wisdom and make their lives harder just to feel like they're proving people wrong.

[@EmmaOnATangent]

Dude got a lifetime's worth of consequences in less than a second. Spread out your poetic justice, people, life's a bastard.

[@ChumblesMumbles]

those interviews with Rush are so hilarious in retrospective that if you told me they weren't real but were instead the product of a bunch of comedians making deep-fakes in a competition to see who could mock him the most, I'd believe it.

[@spacedonut8157]

To be honest, dying in incredibly inaccessible places is one of the less harmful rich person obsessions. I say all the billionaires who want to die 4,000m under the ocean or 8,000m up in the Himalayas should be able to do it.

[@leitmotif7268]

Except for the fact that they’re literally turning those places into graves with garbage dumps. Everest base camps are disgusting, look it up. Trash and abandoned equipment all over the summit, not to mention the dead bodies.

[@WABillsFan]

And all the normal people they put in danger or kill doing it, poor freaking Sherpas.

[@sholem_bond]

But in the Himalayas, they're also potentially taking the lives of their Sherpa guides (who need to earn money by doing this highly dangerous job) with them, as well as the local ecosystem. There are so many frozen bodies and pieces of abandoned climbing or snow equipment on Mount Everest. At least with the Oceangate implosion there was maybe less debris left over, and most of it probably sank?

[@bogdiworksV2]

I'd say the Sherpas don't technically need that money but it's sure nice to be able to make that kind of money in a country where you have very few other options to do so, since the country operates at much lower economic levels.

[@GlenGarcia1961]

Like Quinctillius Varus (he of the Varian disaster, where an influential Roman lawyer lost several legions to the German tribes in 9 AD), the judge who thought "maybe I should go on this thing" may be a judge, but she is not a judge of men. A final note: a popular trope refers to "eating the rich." Well, if they could speak, I'm sure the creatures living at the bottom of the Atlantic near the Titanic would love to thank Stockton Rush for the extra meal of human sauce they got that day. Essentially, that's what everyone in that thing became when it imploded. Yay, Ayn Rand!

[@vylbird8014]

A recurring problem for Rome. Their system of government made no distinction between political and military office: Both are positions of leadership. No seperation of power at all: It was a military government. So quite a few very successful politicians ended up in a position of military command for which they lacked experience or talent. Marcus Licinius Crassus most famously: A very highly successful politician and ruthless businessman, obscenely rich even by the standards of the Roman upper classes. in Rome though, political office and wealth were not enough to truly be the greatest: No political career could be perfected without military glory. So he took a governorship position that gave him command of some legions, started a war. He displayed a stunning level of military incompetence and promptly got himself and a good part of his men killed.

[@marocat4749]

Good he couldnt built rapture with scraps and ducktape

[@kayaszakacs4521]

I'm a gigantic shipwreck nerd, and I remember when all this went down, I spent...way longer than I probably should've ranting to my dad about how messed up it is that people monetized going down to the Titanic. Maybe it's because my interest in shipwrecks started with the wrecks on Lake Superior, where the conditions are a perfect storm to keep corpses from rising to the surface and to keep people from retrieving the bodies, and it's considered varying degrees of disrespectful to dive a wreck with a body onboard (there's a bit of a double-standard involving the Kamloops, but that's a whole other story), but diving to a shipwreck without good cause feels icky to me. Making an *entire business* dedicated to taking people down to a shipwreck is even worse, especially because of just how many people died aboard the Titanic, and especially when said business cuts more corners than a shitty origami artist. It's like running tours of Arlington Cemetery where you get to ignore the footpaths and trample all over the graves. I'm probably getting a little too worked up about this, but tl;dr diving to a lethal shipwreck for funsies is morally icky, profiting off of diving to said wreck is twice as bad, and Stockton Rush was an overly-cocky moron who had it coming for more than just his arrogance.

[@PMickeyDee]

No, you're not getting too worked up over this. It's immoral & disgusting. I had similar rants to anyone who would listen both IRL & online. One online jackass decided to try saying that it's okay now because they didn't do what the families of those on the Edmund Fitzgerald did & have it declared that people couldn't go down to the wreck, ya know since there wasn't anyone with direct connections to those that perished in the wreck. (I didn't even fact check the claim that there was any sort of declarationfor the Edmund Fitzgerald, since there were literal survivors still alive & well when Titanic was found). I think that there really needs to be more focus on this aspect of the implosion. I'd definitely have less strong feelings if this whole situation happened to go to the challenger deep, rather than an underwater graveyard.

[@leitmotif7268]

Don’t ever apologize for righteous and justified anger. Your comparison to Arlington is *perfect* and (as a Great Lakes local) shipwrecks involving loss of life are traditionally considered to be gravesites. The Edmund Fitzgerald is another example of a shipwreck/memorial being violated and then legally protected from trespassing and exploitation. It’s maddening what kind of ethical boundaries we allow the elites to trample when you see the double standard of how poor people are treated by the government and media.

[@oneeyedziggy2]

recent news suggests Boeing would 100% sell defective carbon fiber, considering it seems like they're perfectly happy to use it themselves

[@wellurafastizio]

JFC, that Warhammer 40K joke absolutely killed me

[@FoxMacLeod2501]

If you spend any time professionally working on machinery - heavy shop equipment, any sort of transportation, anything with which people might easily be able to accidentally hurt or off themselves or others - it's all built, maintained, and operated in accordance with the hard-learned data gleaned from analyzing horrific past mishaps. The rules, as they say, are written in blood. If you're paying attention, you _quickly_ learn that most of the time, particularly when huge liability payouts are a risk, _every_ rule, custom, and regulation guiding construction and operation (such as, for example, that the submersible manufacturing community, small though it is, chooses to rely on the well-understood inherent stability and progressive failure patterns of titanium or steel, in lieu of trying to brave sudden catastrophic hull failure with composite carbon fiber hull construction) - all the popular, common, or ubiquitous methods are followed _because they work!_ Don't redesign or "improve" anything you're relying on for survival. It's textbook Dunning-Kruger effect, at its most acute and insidious.

[@sholem_bond]

Tbh Stockton Rush should have had to spend some time working in a manufacturing plant that makes submarine/vehicle parts like the ones he was planning to use, before getting a chance to work with them independently.

[@FTZPLTC]

The point about frontline emergency service people not making these choices is important. It's a big part of what's great about universal healthcare. Some people in the UK want doctors and nurses to be fighting health tourism by checking passports and I just find that idea monstrous.

[@TheAdarkerglow]

Don't worry, Stockton, you'll be remembered for the rules you broke. Specifically the rule of not using carbon fiber. It's not that they died, it's how they died: in a home-made fiberglass contraption with off the shell parts piloted by a aggressively delusional man. It's unfortunate they died, but it wasn't exactly unforeseen.

[@KaiTenSatsuma]

3:05 - Oh, I was thinking "Ocean *Gate* like a door, not Ocean *Gate* like that infamous cult in California that ended in a suicide pact in 1997 and ruined the Hale-Bopp comet for everyone forever" 45:45 - "Once in a Lifetime Opportunity" *_Technically...._* _Not a lie_ But I did reflect that this whole thing was "Basically if 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea happened in Real Life", so there is also that 46:20 - I believe the term you are looking for is *_Unpaid Interns_* which must be *a fucking trip for some of these rich people, they get to experience the crushing depths of the ocean and what it's like to be an intern at one of their many companies*

[@RaptorShadow]

I might be watching too many videos about cults but I was briefly disappointed that wasn't a lead to a Heaven's Gate joke.

[@emilyfarfadet9131]

I work with Carbon fiber and epoxy.....When I heard that's what the hull was..... I have seen this stuff break down from small flaws under nothing more than human exertion. It takes one bubble, one flaw.... It's super strong- until it's not, and then it's just fucked. Also....Two weeks? I've have worked longer on theme-park animatronics.

[@vylbird8014]

It's super-strong in tension, anyway. Not so much in compression.

[@sholem_bond]

Well the theme park animatronics might come to life and kill you. A submersible won't do that.

[@mazeltovcocktail2.0]

Yanno it's one thing to go Extreme Cheapskates to get like, a gallon sized tub of mustard that's slightly out of date but it's quite another to go that route with CARBON FIBER MEANT TO COVER A DEEP SEA SUBMARINE

[@Frommerman]

I love that there's a Titanic judge who judges things about the Titanic

[@sholem_bond]

NGL we probably do need to create more of an international regulatory body about how shipwrecks in international waters get salvaged or toured, now that our submarine and diving technology is way better than it used to be.

[@cleews_]

Robert got it right. If it was Ork made, him believing in it so much would have made it work.

[@desert-rat145]

I think we should all be thankful that Rush was on the craft that failed. I think it's pretty likely that if he wasn't onboard he would have pushed past the bad press and continued the Death Sub Business, or like other cranks on this show, moved on to a worse and more dangerous thing

[@FlameDarkfire]

Well the experience brought them all closer together, just not in the way they wanted.

[@yakovgolyadkin]

@3:20: "I would've called it Absolutely Safe Submersibles Incorporated." So you would've called it ASS, Inc.

[@justinwatson1510]

Other than Henry Kissinger, I don't think I have ever felt this much joy when learning / thinking about someone dying.

[@jamiefrontiera1671]

this carbon fiber talk I've been hearing, reminds me of what i was taught about concrete in the classes i took for architecture. Concrete has excellent conpression strength but sucks at tensile. And when concrete fails: 1. its unpredictable when it fails unlike steel there are tells when its going to fail. 2 its explosive. So concrete is reinforced with steel for the tensile forces, and then we design the steel to fail before the concrete does. so, my point is, if carbon fiber is used in the future, more research and shit ton of fucking testing needs to be done. Plus, they are going to need something else to work with it for the tensile. Then, that other material needs to be designed to fail before the carbon fiber with signs of when its failed. But a shit ton of research and testing and testing and testing to learn more about when it fails needs to be done before anyone signs off on using it again

[@vylbird8014]

It's even worse than that: Carbon fiber is slightly compressible. Titanium is not. So under high pressure the carbon fiber will distort slightly and the titanium endcaps will not, which will possibly result in them becoming detached. Every deep submersible uses a pressure hull as close to spherical as engineering practicality allows, and made from a single uniform material. This is why. The Titan used a cylindrical hull because it allowed for fitting in more passengers in comfort.

[@MrJohndoakes]

1:27:00 Apollo 1 (also known as "AS-204") was going to launch in 1967 as a test craft for the Apollo secondary booster rocket and command module; two thirds of the crew that burned to death had flown in space (Gus Grissom and Ed White) before, while Roger Chaffee had been at Mission Control. The fiasco forced NASA to give up on all-oxygen environments for manned spacecraft and pushed the program to change the door design of the Apollo command module.

[@MrShobar]

Oxygen is safe at about 3 psi, which is approximately the partial pressure of oxygen in our atmosphere. This is the environment that was maintained within the spacecraft in flight. At launch, the spacecraft maintained a mixed gas atmosphere to handle the differential pressure. This was one of the reforms instituted after the Apollo 1 disaster.

[@charlesfaure1189]

Well, the "Become a part of history" part turned out to be true.

[@Mr_Rob_otto]

He should have called his company and submersible “Heaven’s Gate.”

[@PobortzaPl]

IIRC Heaven's Gate people were kinda good in their chosen field, which was making websites.

[@exodiatheforbiddenone186]

At least the OG Heaven's Gate lasted longer than Oceangate

[@johnher4946]

In retrospect, we know Boeing was telling the truth because they would never sell expired carbon fiber when they could instead put it in their jets.

[@badbooks476]

He had the Carbon Fibre Hull painted with ‘ Raptor Truck Bed Liner paint ‘ to waterproof it ! More Mental Logic

[@kyleshelton5734]

I think Robert could get a lot of new fans by doing an April Fools Behind the Bastards episode about Erebus.

[@dekulprit]

When I was in the army, if someone died on deployment they'd cut off Internet and calls home on the fobs of the unit that the deceased were in, at least in the units I was in. They didn't want someone posting about it on social media or telling a spouse or family member and get the rumor mill going until family was notified. Once that happened lines of communication were opened back up.

[@vir_luminarium7769]

Didn’t expect to hear the warhammer 40k comparison in this podcast i found yesterday about weird rich people

[@cadencenavigator958]

I'm gonna be real, I didn't know it was *actually* called Ocean Gate until like, two or three weeks after the whole thing. I thought it was just "oh, Watergate wasn't enough, it's a whole ocean"

[@justinwitty9847]

I’m amazed this story hasn’t garnered more Bioshock memes.

[@DoveAlexa]

Rapture's subs were at least spherical XD!

[@OsirisLord]

Summer 2023 when the ocean became a class enemy against the bourgeoisie.

[@bogdiworksV2]

Everest: glad you finally joined, sis.

[@rachelburns8706]

For something that came out a year ago, this is really well researched. (I'm watching after seeing the coastguard hearings in September 2024.)

[@samsha1013]

My bet is Stockton is telling the truth- I am guessing that Boeing does not want people thinking they sold expired materials for a project like this- they probably are not supposed to sell expired carbon fiber but some dumbass wanted to make it profit to make his bottom line better for a bigger bonus and did not realize what it was being used for and thought as long as it wasn’t for use in airplanes that would be ok not knowing. It might also have been an under the table deal where the person selling it was supposed to throw it away and sold it to him and pocketed the money. My total bet is on one of those two scenarios.

[@ahmaddanielazmi1339]

Not to mention that admitting that you sold Stockton the carbon fiber could open Boeing to litigation even if it's unlikely to succeed.

[@samsha1013]

@@ahmaddanielazmi1339 exactly

[@Trikipum]

@@ahmaddanielazmi1339 that makes no sense.. it is not a company selling a food product that is expired and kills people... It is a company who sold some material and it is nothing of their business what the other company was going to do with it...it is not a matter of a legal problem, it is a matter of not wanting their name associated with that genious...

[@stefangadshijew1682]

@@ahmaddanielazmi1339 Could it really? Wouldn't it heavily depend on as _what_ it was sold? If Boeing sold it as some scrap material that was clearly not meant to be used for anything else then research and development, they would be fine, right?

[@anycole89]

There's a good chance Boeing doesn't know they sold it. I buy a lot of surplus shit and a lot of times, these companies have brokers come in to handle the sale of the materials. It's a win-win - the broker works on commission so (large corporation) doesn't need to hire people to do the sales and (large corporation) can reclaim storage space without having to do more than point at an area and say "I want this cleared out". Other times the surplus place buys everything out as a bulk lot and resell it for a profit. I've bought stuff on Ebay where the pictures were obviously taken in a Boeing facility but the actual seller was some surplus joint out of Everett. Does Boeing know they indirectly sold me a rivet gun with McDonnell Douglas markings in 2019? Doubtful. I can still "technically" say I have a tool I got from Boeing. And consumables in safety-critical industries are usually marked the same way, so even if you buy it from a broker or surplus dealer, you can still see the original customer's name.

[@thefinalsif]

Someone pointed this out on the reddit, but UW appears to be lying about their involvement for some reason, there's documents still hosted on their servers where they're explicitly taking credit for not only helping design the composite sub, but also the video game navigation system and the launch system. It's under the prior name, but they're very clearly talking about the Titan sub, talking about the composite carbon fiber steel they say they collaborated on creating, and saying it's rated for 4k meters and that they did testing. Like, it could got get more obvious. I dunno if it's because of the name change or a miscommunication in the department, but they're lying for some reason.

[@francistaylor1822]

Evidence ?

[@marcuswalters8093]

9:04 This is a quote for the ages. 45:43 Literally once in _your_ lifetime. 1:15:50 I've said it before and I'll say it again; A person is only as smart as their boss.

[@granola-approach]

actually, the titanic is some complex topography on the ocean floor, which lets it be a vector for all sorts of deep sea creatures to take shelter in and attach to. There's a hell of a lot more we can learn from the titanic! All about deep sea life, though. You need pretty specialized equipment to do much too, not to mention... be a scientist. I just wanna point out that no, a lot of scientific research remains to be done ... near the titantic.

[@rabbit3212010]

The ad sounds like the back to the future ride at Disney.

[@francistaylor1822]

Going to build a lego submarine, how many millions should I charge?

[@DoveAlexa]

at least 200 to cover the cost of buying the lego.

[@theundergroundlairofthesqu9261]

Can you buy JB Weld in two 55 gallon drums? You're going to need a lot of JB Weld.

[@azoic6]

@44:20, it WAS an orc mech! It made it down, it'll just never come back up!

[@theendofmyropemydude]

If you guys DON'T do a Warhammer episode I am going to be very disappointed in you.

[@vylbird8014]

It's two independent bastards. There's Games Workshop, who are a little bit bastardy for their heavy-handed copyright and trademark enforcement, though for an understandable reason. Then there's a faction of the fandom who never quite got that the setting is supposed to be making fun of super-religious white-supremacists, and adopted the imagery from the game to glorify their cause. Also let's them play Schrodinger's Asshole very effectively.

[@theendofmyropemydude]

@@vylbird8014 I would buy that it started as a satire angle, but in the last 20 years or so the faction(s) that are supposed to be being satirized have been lionized instead. The number of actual white supremacists in the fandom is laughably small anyhow. For every dude who plays Krieg because he just "really likes the Wehrmacht" there's a thousand that have nothing to do with it. There's definitely more Nazi sympathizers in games like flames of war, but the audience trends older, like 45+ because it's a historical wargame so no one notices.

[@vylbird8014]

@@theendofmyropemydude Just the money, I suppose. GW drifted away from the satirical element because it let them turn the franchise away from just tabletop gamers and into novels, comics, computer games, some failed movie attempts. The Space Machines turned into uber-macho action heroes, the very thing they were created to mock through exaggeration. The only faction who always retain the humor are the Orks, who.. can be funny as hell when done right. GW-inspired memes are common in far-right circles, but I don't think many of the people using them actually play the game. They just love the concept of Real Men in power armor violently defending their people from degenerates.

[@theendofmyropemydude]

@@vylbird8014 it's simply the horseshoe of Real Proletariat in old fatigues saving the world from authority.

[@vylbird8014]

@@theendofmyropemydude You could view it like that. I see it more as an echo of fascist propaganda: "Our People" are under attack from enemies outside and degenerates within, and only real men can step up and crush the Je- er, Xenos. It does seem that GW wants to have their cake and eat it. Sometimes they treat WH40K as a satire of overused sci-fi and action cliches, other times as a serious setting. Whichever approach makes them the most money at the time. Their mockery of fascism has been adopted by actual far-right nutjobs because the iconography is really cool. And because it gives them deniability - if ever called out they can say "just a meme, man, get a sense of humor lol."

[@pete3767]

Listening while slurping loudly on my cocoa while I sit in my non-imploding house

[@MarquisdeSuave]

1:13:55 Okay, so this is where Im going to go tinfoil hat. I believe the French guy had to be a paid employee or Oceangate. He was the guy Rush could point to and say "see, if this French dude, who captained 33 missions to the Titanic, is on this boat, it HAS TO BE SAFE. The French guy was world renowned in Ocean exploration and could get on any mission down to th3 ocean depths he wanted to. Why would he essentially get into what is a Yugo submersible unless he was WELL compensated?

[@stefangadshijew1682]

He might just have been very passionate. I mean, I agree with you, I suspect the same, but it could just have been that the french guy didn't really care so much about dying if it means he could do what he wanted to. I'm working with some pretty dangerous stuff, too, and would never advice anybody else to do what I'm doing, but I like it, so I'm happy to take the risks. The difference is, if I've got interns around, I try to actually keep them alive.

[@fauxpinkytoo]

Paul Henri Nargeolet was said by friends to have some reservations about the Titan, and expressed the feeling that if something went wrong, maybe he would be helpful to the crew. And, he was a widower...

[@Jackthestripper]

Atlas Imploded

[@charlesfaure1189]

Love it.

[@SnausageKing]

It fucking rocks they made it out of Walmart clearance carbon fiber. You want your vessel to have the sex appeal of a modded 03 Civic but on a budget

[@ericjohnson6105]

Sounds like Stockton was the anti-Hammond. Instead of "sparing no expense," it's like "I got this shit on sale bro, they were going to throw it out!"

[@TelenTerror]

Even Hammond actually was a cheap wad. He comes into Nedry's office and says he's not going to listen to Nedry ask for more money again; Nedry had been wanting more money because Nedry had bid on the job based on the incomplete/inaccurate assessments Hammond had made about the park's requirements--the dude literally didn't understand how MUCH it would take to make it function as envisioned and Nedry didn't ask for enough money to actually do it all right or smoothly. The novel goes into a bit with another guy listing how JP was the most ambitious single park project in history: they had the problems and costs and maintenance of a luxury hotel, an amusement park, a major zoo, a game preserve/national park (essentially), and then you have all the problems of them having to learn about dinosaurs as they grew them. Even Disney only does one or two of those things at a time, with a lot more manpower. Hammond spared no expense on making it look nice but he didn't want to hear it when he was told it'd cost more money than previously guessed to actually run it.

[@lesspam6601]

Wait! Did the cooler melt?

[@DoveAlexa]

Oh god I forgot about the story and now I need to know!

[@sangomasmith]

Funny thing: it looks like this dude got his wish. He's famous now.

[@madriiax]

Heard this is where to find the sub sub-culture 👀

[@watcher235711]

This is like Main Character Syndrome to the nth degree.

[@Chiquitadudep]

"you're remembered for the rules you break" like.. The rules of science. This guy... The arrogance to think he can just override proven science

[@forestfairy4828]

Or you're remembered for being a total dumbass who killed people in a death can.

[@Bluecedor]

It’s an asinine perspective even when it’s used in non-lethal situations. The list of people who made history staying within the rules is at least as long, as if that mattered.

[@exodiatheforbiddenone186]

He literally thought he could break the laws of physics and survive. His conceit and hubris is just immeasurably astounding.

[@kilwat492]

I was listening to this on the way home from a 40k tournament, and you should totally do a BTB on GW or an episode on how the right co-opts and misunderstands satire, or how corporations end up ruining satire!

[@zirconiumaloe]

He should just do the emperor tbh

[@chaoticsystem2211]

On the bright side, people now get to explore two wrecks for the price of one...

[@DoveAlexa]

Surprised, but not disappointed, to hear 40k lore used to burn stockton's ass. "An Orc sub WOULD have made it", exactly!

[@captainoftheneverdie21]

This deserved a second listen and here I am

[@TheExvangelicalCat]

That's like my grandmother's argument about really raw beef (I'm from the Midwest we need therapy) after she got FOOD POISONING. "Well I've done it before so it's fine"

[@PMickeyDee]

Question: is Granny chowing down on uncooked meatloaf or like eating rare t-bone?

[@TheExvangelicalCat]

@@PMickeyDee she was eating raw hamburger. It's a thing in Ohio among some older people. Don't ask me why.

[@PMickeyDee]

@@TheExvangelicalCat I've seen what Ohioans do to chili, the hamburger thing isn't that surprising lol.

[@stefangadshijew1682]

Here in germany, raw minced pork, called Hackepeter or Mett, is a staple food, served on bread with onions. It used to be jokingly called "construction worker's jam". It's pretty safe, no issues at all, _if_ everybody does their job correctly.

[@PMickeyDee]

@@stefangadshijew1682 you must not be familiar with the _"that increases costs, safety be damned"_ philosophy of the US.

[@ericbsmith42]

Gate, like the Heaven's Gate not the Water Gate.

[@Kinzokugia]

It's entirely a rumor, but supposedly PH was a widower. Another reason he may have not cared about any risk.

[@charlesfaure1189]

Also didn't care enough to explicitly warn the tourists that the Titan wasn't safe, something he had to know. He was part of the draw for these poor rubes, but wanted the ride so much he failed in a basic moral duty.

[@corvuscallosum5079]

the plural of "cyclops" is "cyclopes" because Greek is weird

[@dragonsword7370]

So it doesn't sound different?

[@Caldwing]

@@dragonsword7370 It does. In greek, which is where this construction comes from, cyclopes would be pronounced kind of like cy-KLO-pez. In American english it would probably come out something like cy-kla-peez.

[@Ken_Scaletta]

@@Caldwing It is actually KU-klo-pees. The 'c' is a kappa in Greek.

[@VildhjartaFanGurl]

Cyclops is the name of the big sub in subnautica lol

[@scottmcloud257]

Probably a good idea he didn't succeed at rockets, He would have likely named his company HeavensGate.

[@johnl5350]

It was literally a tourist trap.

[@vylbird8014]

I think the number of private subs might be underestimated, given that a number are unregistered and used to smuggle drugs.

[@PMickeyDee]

If you look into narcosubs, the estimated number that embark on journeys to the US & Mexico are insane & extremely concerning for maritime traffic. I can't believe that there's never been a major accident where a ship collided with an unseen narcosub.

[@stefangadshijew1682]

@@PMickeyDee How would you know that what you ran into was an unseen, unregistered narco sub? I mean, you might be able to tell from the Orcas suddenly being really outg-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[@PMickeyDee]

@@stefangadshijew1682 _I_ don't know jack, but I did go down a really weird rabbit hole on narcosubs and the estimates from the coastguard & DEA on how many make it to their destination undetected.

[@biertrang]

i would like to personally endorse the WH 40k references. well done.

[@PMickeyDee]

50:17 Archduke, not archbishop. In 1914 Europe wasn't going to start inventing new methods of mass killing over a clergyman meeting St Pete. (sorry, pedantic, i know)

[@inkfoxes4941]

It's carbon fiber, Michael, how much could it cost? $10?

[@tremorlok6659]

Can you do Rick Scott?

[@zacharybutler5944]

can they ask WHERE THE FUCK HIS EYEBROWS WENT?!

[@ChienJaune01]

Well, why not gaming controllers, but people spend more on gaming mice, arcade sticks and HOTAS than the deathsub guy did on his piloting device ffs

[@vylbird8014]

There's really nothing wrong with using a game controller on your submersible, so long as it isn't your only means of control. You really want backup systems for your backup systems.

[@foehammer5047]

I was appalled at the media referring to these imbeciles as explorers. I remember two stories that define exploration: Renalph Fines got frostbite on two of his fingers after falling into ice. The flesh became necrotic. The surgery was scheduled but he was in so much pain he went out to his shed and sawed off his own fingers with a circular saw. The surgeon was furious but admitted that the cut and subsequent first aid was perfect and Fines had saved as much flesh as possible. And the story of Brian Blessed punching an attacking polar bear in the face because he refused to shoot it. And these guys sitting in a box drinking coco don't really live up to those standards.

[@DoveAlexa]

Yay! Save the bears! (They can take a hit, they are huge)

[@widescreennavel]

The Coast Guard does charge for helping boats. It's not free, they are mercenaries.

[@thefinalsif]

You may have different experiences depending on your country, but in the US (the coast guard that Robert is talking about), it's illegal for the Coast guard to charge for rescues "The Coast Guard is expressly prohibited by statute (Title 46 US Code, sec. 2110) from charging a fee for any search and rescue service, so this is not something that is subject to a discretionary waiver."

[@PMickeyDee]

Here's a quote from a USA Today article: “Who pays the cost of Coast Guard rescues? The cost of the search and rescue mission is likely in the millions of dollars, Boyer said, one that will fall to taxpayers. He said the Coast Guard doesn’t charge people for search and rescue. “That’s their job,” he said, noting fear of costs could deter people from seeking lifesaving help. While some adventure expeditions require patrons to take out insurance policies, few would come close to covering likely the costs of the current rescue mission, he said. He said high-risk adventures have long fueled complex debates about risk and rescue. “I think it's going to become a larger issue for us. Because it's not just under the water. We now have private spaceships flying private astronauts into space,” he said. ”What happens when that private spaceship can't come back home?””

[@avanm420]

"Mission specialist" = Mouseketeer

[@DigitalIndra]

DAKA DAKA TO DA BOTTEM OF DA OCEAN!

[@braddavistube]

The kids part; that's how I plan to get my kids excited about weeding and suckering while knowing the difference between a racer and a copperhead, a yellow jacket and a bumble bee.

[@marocat4749]

Ocean gate should e charged for the rescue costs at very least. Thats knowing criminally irresponsiility, and as much as rescue shouldnt e business, its not its charging them for crimilan irresponsiility. Yeah charge allthat and mybe more out of oceangate.

[@camille1324]

“People are telling me I’m going to kill someone, I take that as a personal insult” is the most concise summary of what’s wrong with this type of guy’s brain and he said it himself. Wow. Maybe…data and expert advice should be viewed as an essential part of “innovation” and not a challenge to your inherent genius??? lol???

[@Bluecedor]

One of my favorite pieces of self delusion: “citizen scientists”. All those testimonial quotes in the OG video…each person is trying so hard to not sound bought off. At $250k a pop your few hours on a dive looking through a not-to-spec window at the object of your tragedy fetish aren’t contributing anything. You’re in a carbon fiber tube sitting on a plank while Rush plays a video game with your life and rage quits when he can’t get his way.

[@bogdiworksV2]

Excuse me, they WERE counting fish! 😂

[@vylbird8014]

Stockton Rush. Stockton's Crush.

[@stefangadshijew1682]

I've heard his wife is now active on a new experimental dating app called Crusher.

[@Jakeurb8ty82]

'dicarous' [Deaus Ex Human Revolution theme begnins playing]

[@charlesreid9337]

Most people seem to think tensile strength is the only type of strength. It is only one of many. Decompression and shear strength of objects built with carbon fiber are determined entirely by the glue. People do this with Superior to steal and it's not. Also commercial divers die all the time in submersible s. Read up about the star canopus disaster. The owner or an executive of turn a deep ocean repair shop repeatedly cut corners from the start of the dive all the way through the rescue operations eventually killing both divers. if a single one of his decisions had been different.. if he had just listened to his crew or the divers or the other ship that attempted to help they would have lived. For some reason because they were contract divers he never faced any consequences

[@TheJuggtron]

Just a note on the 40k stuff, in the last 6 months its suddenly hit the mainstream

[@seantracey9935]

Behind the Bastards 40k edition The Emperor.

[@johnl5350]

Yep, paint the ork sub red, fuel it with magical thinking and yer gtg

[@DoveAlexa]

If you paint it yellow, does the explody colour cancel out the possibility of imploding?

[@kombatwombat6579]

I appreciated the WH40k jokes.

[@PlayingGilly]

How ghoulish do you have to be to spend quarter of a million to gawk at a grave at the bottom of the Atlantic?

[@braddavistube]

If listen to any episode about bastards behind RPG's! Especially the commercial juggernaut that Warhammer products are.

[@wyrmofvt]

1:22:07 OceanGate could have left out the "part of" there and not lose any meaning.

[@Chiquitadudep]

Stockton Rush... The Homer Simpson of the Rich World. Using Carbon fibre like eating expired ham.