Bigscreen Beyond, Somnium VR1, Deckard and Delusions for VR in 2023

I highly recommend the following video by Artur with Somnium.
• The State of VR Optics...

[@markkovalcson7243]

It's been brought to my attention ( by metalnwood ) that I gave credit to the microOLED for lack of CA with the Bigscreen Beyond, and the lack of CA is purely a function of the pancake lens not the display. The pixel pattern of the microOLED does effectively remove moiré, but CA is all lens.

[@gorrilaunit99]

So . . . should I buy now or wait for something slightly better? Idk what my first headset should be but I'm all in 😂

[@markkovalcson7243]

@@gorrilaunit99 I can't answer that question.

[@stephanehamel7109]

Finally! A pragmatic KZbinr for VR. I have now subscribed to your channel. This video's dose of realism is quite refreshing sir. :)

[@wraithstrikevids]

Good to see someone who understands the actual cost of these devices! All headset manufacturers are losing money on these things. Meta's insane spending in particular has completely warped people's perception of the costs involved.

[@brettgrieves]

Agreed, some people have very unrealistic expectations and ideas of hardware costs!

[@markkovalcson7243]

To be fair, I'm standing on the presentation Artur made.

[@jackr.749]

Thank you for your honest views, I think I share a lot of the same views. :) Regarding the Dekard, people's expectations are so high for this thing that they are in for a major let down, I'll use the Index as a example, the Index was out dated the day it launched, there were two HMDs on the market already with the same resolution (HTC Vive Pro and Samsung Odyssey), yes, the FOV was really nice but the cost of that FOV was outrageous glare and godrays due to the stacked optics. The Beyond sounds amazing but is a little Beyond my budget right now (In Canada, it's over $1300.00). At this time, if Meta were to gut the Quest 3, keep the panels and optics but replace the electronics with a "Rift" style HMD, a real PCVR HMD with DP connection, no more front heavy battery, no more worrying about battery levels, etc. I would be first in line for one, I don't mind being tethered to a PC if the experience is so much better than using wifi streaming or Link Cable. Compression is NOT your friend! LOL I do have a Quest 3 and am impressed with it, the optics are incredible, but for sim racing and overall clarity (especially for distant scenes) my Reverb G2v2 is my go to HMD. My Index has been sitting in it's box since getting the G2, but I do use the Knuckle controllers with the G2 (a pair of VR Dongles and OpenVR Space Calibrator) :)

[@RidgeXR_2]

Great video, very much enjoyed it.

[@Piola73]

I love your video, we're on the same boat, I've an Aero too and I'm waiting my Bigscreen Beyond...

[@bcsnapier]

In a nutshell: Mark covers various topics related to VR headsets, particularly focusing on the Bigscreen Beyond goggles. Here's a summary with the pros and cons highlighted: Pros of the Bigscreen Beyond goggles: The Bigscreen Beyond utilizes micro OLED display technology, which offers advantages like deep blacks, excellent color, and no chromatic aberration or Moiré. It's a compact form factor that stays fixed on the face, providing mobility without the headset moving relative to the user's face. Cons of the Bigscreen Beyond goggles: It uses a small micro OLED display, limiting the field of view. The maximum achievable FOV is around 103°, which is less than some users' expectations. Due to the smaller display, there are physical limitations in achieving a wider field of view with the current pancake lenses. It's explained that the wide FOV (around 25-30°) desired by users is challenging to achieve with the current technology. Other notable points: Mark emphasizes the challenges in the VR market and cautions against delusional expectations regarding the rapid development of wide FOV, micro OLED-based headsets. The limitations of micro OLED technology and the associated costs are detailed, especially concerning Apple's struggles with yield rates and production volume. Mark highlights the disparities in expectations versus technological realities, mentioning that even if certain features seem feasible, they would significantly increase the price of the headset. Overall, he provides a realistic view of the current state of VR technology, cautioning against expecting immediate breakthroughs due to the limitations and complexities involved in developing advanced VR headsets.

[@markkovalcson7243]

It's 125-130H which I added as text in the Video, but otherwise about right.

[@sheep7255]

My biggest problem with vr is I obsess too much about it, knowing damn well I have no where near the actual money for not only the hardware, but also something to use it to its fullest

[@H.DISTRICT]

I’d be very happy with a Quest 3 equivalent update to the Index display and lenses, and Steam Deck update to Index controllers for better durability.

[@markkovalcson7243]

I have had someone bring up the Arpara VR headset and suggest that they had the optics worked out in a generic headset using a small uOLED sensor. What I gathered was that it had a very small in focus area, massive distortions, god rays, surprisingly bad color and since it didn't completely block out ambient light, it wasn't bright enough. To me it doesn't seem like they had remotely optimized that headset for the limitations of that small sensor and pancake lens. I see that headset as proof of the effort required to make a small uOLED display work.

[@dtz1000]

The new micro OLED displays are much better and brighter now. There's no more excuses for making a bad micro OLED headset now.

[@exodous02]

Just came from Sadly it's Bradley's '80+ hours of Apple Vision Pro' and even if Valve did help Apple with the Vision Pro to get the lenses for the Deckard I think I'll still wait for the next gen after the vision pro. In helping I think Valve did, they had a revolving door between Apple and Valve employees. What Valve got from allowing Apple employees into Valve to know what they were working on and letting Apple borrow Valve employees working on the Decard will be seen. I just really hope it isn't only Steam being the only VR game platform allowed on the vision pro. If this is it that's a sign that Valve had this grand idea for a new headset but couldn't deliver for the size they were. Deckard hasn't happened yet because Gabe didn't want to release something that sucked, hardware wise maybe they were just not big enough to make it happen but the vision was there. However, Bradly has never mentioned the revolving door thing in over a year so maybe he was wrong and it never happened. It is funny he said it a few times in the past and then never brought it up again. He said he isn't even excited for the Deckard anymore, the vision pro is what he wanted. That kinda crushed me a little bit but in the end Valve is a small company and can't do what Apple is doing. Maybe they did just give up and gave up all their work to Apple so someone could make a cool headset. Maybe in a year there will be a big announcement of Steam on the Vision Pro. Apple has never focused on games but if Valve does the game side maybe it will work. It will just be a steam machine that streams to the Vision Pro. If that happens I'll throw my hands up and get a vision pro or the next one if that is close by then. But no cool Linux UI for a headset that runs everything a PC runs in a headset, just suck in iOS, not even macOS, just iOS. . .

[@markkovalcson7243]

It is what it is. Sometimes it helps to emotionally detach yourself from waiting. The AVP is still a 1st gen system that was released primarily to allow developers to build apps for it so there would be compelling content when the less expensive and hopefully fully sorted consumer headset arrives in the next 18 months.

[@drmikehuntphd7905]

Interesting to hear you talk about all the different technologies and what people expect moving forward. Just to add my 2 cents, I would give up OLED/pancake for a wider FOV. After using the 8kx for years, normal headsets feel inadequate. I really like my Quest 3, but the lack of peripheral vision is frustrating. Hate having to move my head so much.

[@markkovalcson7243]

There are multiple solutions: The 12K is supposed to be an aspheric/fresnel hybrid, but likely with noticeable distortions, but that is at least a year or so away. There is the Hypervision prototype that uses two panels per eye ( uOLED and pancake ), also likely a couple years away. Then there is what Somnium is doing right now with a two lens aspheric system for a real 125-130H FOV which will be the widest field of view for any modern headset until something else is released coming 1st quarter 2024. Seems like it will have the highest quality wide FOV for a while.

[@drmikehuntphd7905]

@@markkovalcson7243 Yeah I've been waiting on the 12k since it's announcement stream with the hilariously optimistic 2022 release date xD The 8kx already has a real 160H FOV which is crazy high, so the Somnium doesn't really come close. If the 12k comes close to the Somnium's edge to edge, I'll be very happy.

[@H.DISTRICT]

@@markkovalcson7243 didn’t hypervision have a single lens solution that could do 140 degree FOV?

[@markkovalcson7243]

@@H.DISTRICT They called it the VR140 for some reason, but it is only 112x95 with a 130 degree diagonal. Here's a link to it. Supporting up to 40ppd in the center and 18ppd on the edges. www.hypervision.ai/copy-of-vr140-gen2-rdk

[@pfschuyler]

The future of VR visuals never rested with these types of screens anyway. Let's hope CReal3D is moving in the right direction.

[@markkovalcson7243]

That's a completely different use case. Magic Leap has been working on a similar display for quite a while now with pass through optics and the image projected to your retina.This type of AR wear is definitely the future in terms of mass adoption as extensions of your smartphone, but they have never been focused on gaming. Even the latest Magic Leap 2 is only up to 45°H x 55°V. That makes these fine for giving you some additional information as you go about your life, but they are much further away from an immersive VR experience than the current VR display technologies.

[@ormpoa]

2:25/20:29 "it's the only way": Apple Vision Pro also uses uOLED with pancake lenses but *without* custom face mask, presumably using eye tracking and servos to align eye boxes. While technology state of the art is often credibly shared at industry conferences, with enterprises motivated to attract talent, cost and yield data tends to be more closely held. In particular, Apple may want to exaggerate costs to justify their pricing and daunt prospective niche competitors. Meanwhile, Samsung may have different cost and yield experience and projections based on their own fab capabilities.

[@markkovalcson7243]

I tried to explain that the Apple Vision has a larger uOLED display that allows for a generic fit interface and large eye box. There is more room to move around and have it look sharp like other standard sized headsets. It does have auto-ipd adjustment as well. The BSB is using a much smaller display which requires smaller pancake lens which requires much tighter tolerances to work. That's why it has a custom interface. So the issue is all about the size of the display and what is necessary to make that size work. "it's the only way" has to do with having uOLED panels that don't break the bank and that are actually available.

[@simracingjunky9679]

Thank you for this great video. It was so funny to watch the comments in the XR4 announcement today. "Why no Micro-Oled?" "Why no pancake?" "Please be under 1k"... Personally I am amaze of what Varjo has produced for 4k. The only problem is that we are not getting Graphics cards that come close to push the pixels in that headset for another year.

[@markkovalcson7243]

Agreed! Artur tried to answer all those questions in his video, but I also think people like to just demand things. 14.4Mp per eyeball with the Varjo XR-4 using a single DP 1.4 cable and a USB cable is interesting. It will be easier when DP 2.1 and the 5090 in 2025 is available, but we deal with what we have now.

[@RytheGuy87]

I love my Varjo as well. However, do you notice the slight distortion on the edges of your periphery when you are looking around? Drives me nuts.

[@markkovalcson7243]

I'm running DFR frequently and the outer edges are cropped. I notice the lack of vertical FOV at times. I notice some CA occasionally. I sometimes notice the motion blur when I pan your head. I notice the dark gray instead of black at times. It's a pretty nice headset and generally when I'm in game I adapt. The one thing that does jump out at me is how much the headset moves on my face and that is going to be dependent on your face an how wide your head is. For me it breaks immersion at times. The Aero does have a much larger sharp in focus area than the G2 I briefly had and I've enjoyed it.

[@Sycophantichallenger]

Man, I've been waiting for the deckard for 2+ years now... And I continue to wait. I refuse to give my money to facebook. I might buckle and get the bigscreen beyond if I really lose patience, but I'm currently effectively not using VR, because I'm waiting for a product that is somewhat future-proof and respects my privacy. Hell, I upgraded to a current gen 7950x processor an RTX 4090 and... well all the bells and whistles. I upgraded predominantly for VR, but I just haven't found the headset that I want to buy.

[@markkovalcson7243]

For years I was just hoping Valve released a higher resolution Index and it never came.

[@dtz1000]

Buy a meta Quest 3 second hand. That way you're not giving money to Meta.

[@Sycophantichallenger]

@dtz1000 it's a matter of Meta requiring that I have an account with them linked to my legal name so that they can monitor my activity, build out my ad profile and sell it to others. They would still be making money off of me by being their usual sheister selves. Business as usual in the meta world.

[@brettgrieves]

My hope is with Apple pushing normal form factor uOLED, prices will get cheaper in the long run and we will eventually see uOLED become the stanard for all HMD manufacturers, and most probably at higher refresh rates too. We just have to be patient. Looking forward to your Bigscreen review.... Ive got the popcorn ready :)

[@markkovalcson7243]

Popcorn? I absolutely agree that Apple will help since they are the first manufacturer who has said they would pay for the production of this hard to manufacture chip in volume. Someone has to prime the pump and eventually the yields will increase which will have a dramatic impact on the pricing, but not yet. Once the yields improve the profit margin will improve, and they will be able to keep up with demand. At some point after that other manufacturers will be able to get volume up and at 1/4 the current price they would pair well with Aspheric lenses or lower FOV pancakes.

[@ivaniuk123]

I want a headset that doesn't bloom at night flight. I heard the big screen beyond blooms bad during night flight. I also have a pimax crystal and flying at night with instrument lights on it looks like you're in a fog field in your cocpit because of the micro blooming around the instruments. I'm hoping the somnium VR1 fixes this issue and if it does I'm buying it.

[@markkovalcson7243]

The Somnium VR1 uses identical display panels to the Crystal which have the same number of local dimming zones. The optics on the VR1 will have a wider FOV and will likely be sharper than the Crystal with wider FOV lens. I couldn't guess as to whether the VR1's two lens system would reduce that blooming effect. The Bigscreen Beyond has no blooming, but it does have high contrast glare and according to the VR Flight Sim Guy this is worse in MSFS than most other titles. If this is an issue for you in the Crystal, I would definitely wait to hear about reviews on the VR1 before buying especially if that is your primary reason to change headsets.

[@RidgeXR_2]

Oh, one thing I figured I'd offer. You're talking about the deckard as if it's impossible, but there's one key thing to note there. The deckard is not announced. It's a WIP. Valve had a headset called Vader internally with 4K per eye micro oled displays in *2017*. The deckard very well may release 3 years from now, in a timeline where those specs are nearer to affordable.

[@markkovalcson7243]

Is something possible for mass production just because there is a proof of concept in a lab. I would LOVE for Valve to throw this back in my face! Artur's video even mentioned larger uOLED's that were not in production yet, but there are likely samples available today for companies to evaluate for the future. Wasn't there was some uOLED company that Valve was working with that Meta ended up purchasing. For some reason, I thought that company ended up not panning out. Apple is trying to make a statement with a technological tour de force. However, Samsung is also in this race. if I were looking to see where affordable larger uOLED's are going to come from, I'd be watching Samsung, but that is also likely a longer term effort.

[@RidgeXR_2]

@@markkovalcson7243 Yeah, stuff like this is why I think the Deckard won't be any time soon. It'd be too expensive as a consumer device right now. In 3 years though, likely a bit more affordable.

[@lassmirandadennsiewillja3943]

no somnium this year smells like decagear

[@markkovalcson7243]

Based on the reviews this week, it seems very real. I know a number of people with pre-orders in for it. Most people are seeing a better FOV than any other headset currently available.

[@ubarwolfie1689]

I would love to see Bradley’s reply to this video .

[@markkovalcson7243]

FWIW, I was one of those people on the edge of my seat waiting for the Deckard announcement to happen. I mean him no disrespect, and if he feels differently about any of this, I'd be happy to hear what he has to say. He is a knowledgeable person and I enjoy his content.

[@ubarwolfie1689]

Your video was very good - with so much expectations, I was waiting for Valve with much better specs. Mini- LED zones and pancake could be the next step

[@n9ne]

there are like 8 different companies producing µoled screens. you will see many µoled products in the near future. also on sony semicon website it says their µoled lineup except for the 3.5k4k is available for mass production. they have 5 different µoled displays for just AR/VR, and another 5 for camera etc. i highly doubt there's a yield issue. sony is buying the really high end one. the entire point of µoled is so you can make a compact device but apple is making a massive hmd that weighs close to a K ..it's just the 3.5k4k µoled that has low yield because those aren't even in mass production yet.

[@markkovalcson7243]

I would love to be wrong about this. You say these other lines are available for mass production. Samsung has something in the works for an Apple Vision competitor that they will try to get out in 2024. Maybe Meta could afford to start up a line for mass production. Keep in mind that there are startup costs involved and minimum unit volume before a fab will start up mass production. So assuming other companies aren't after the 40ppd Apple wants, how large are these other displays and what are their unit costs? What kind of lens are they planning to put on them? Let's take Meta as the most likely company with the resources like Apple or Samsung to start up a production line. And let's take a likely new product, the Quest Pro 2. They have committed to pancake lenses and are doing a great job with them. So far so good, but unless they can get a larger uOLED into production than Apple is using, they would have to drop the FOV of their existing headsets. That's a tough call. Better blacks and color, but losing FOV. Until larger than currently available uOLED's are available, I'm not sure they would make that call. I also don't see them moving away from pancake lenses. So let's say Meta goes ahead and builds a uOLED pancake Quest Pro 2. How much do you think they will need to sell it for. Keep in mind that even the Bigscreen Beyond's small uOLED's are pretty expensive compared to miniLED's. How much of a production commitment are they willing to make given how poorly the Quest Pro sold? This would be priced a lot higher than the initial price of the Quest Pro. The problem right now is how to take the uOLED's that could be mass produced and use them in a standard sized headset. Currently we have standard sized headsets and the small custom Bigscreen Beyond. Do you think headset manufacturers will migrate to a different less generic form factor or wait for the uOLED's to increase in side so they can keep their existing form factor? BTW I absolutely see this happening eventually. The question is how soon. I would be very surprised to see the size uOLED needed both affordable and in mass production in time to see a shift for at least 1-2 years.

[@n9ne]

$350 for 1 3.5k4k is very cheap considering first gen 4k tv panels used to cost in the 10s of thousands and micro led tvs are in the 100s of thousands $ so for these things to only cost $350 each before they're even available speak volumes. anyway if you want to know the real future of vr/ar look up bosch vr headset shoots lasers in eyeball. imagine this technology combined with AI eye trackers in a device that sits on your table. this means you can see real time holographic imagery and even interact with them. demos of this were displayed at displayweek 2023. just when you thought technology couldn't get more crazy. @@markkovalcson7243

[@markkovalcson7243]

@@n9ne Cheap is always relative to the application, and profit margin needed at a certain volume so that a product makes money and doesn't lose. Most manufacturers can't afford to sell at a loss like Meta has historically done. How soon would you guess we will see the next uOLED VR headset shipping?

[@n9ne]

Q4 2024. if a small company like bigscreen can ship one for $999 a much bigger company can ship one for half the price by then. also companies don't have to do what bigscreen is doing with their face gasket. the reason bigscreen is doing it is because they can get away with it, but also because they have to because of brightness issues. big companies wouldn't be able to handle the demand. sony's µoled doesn't have issues with brightness like the panels bigscreen uses from what i gathered. @@markkovalcson7243

[@H.DISTRICT]

Talk about being a wet blanket a killing my Deckard hype

[@markkovalcson7243]

Well... yeah.

[@JozefTrubac]

If only Quest 3 would have higher resolution and displayport.