Birth Control, Vasectomies, and Sex in Marriage

Excerpted from Lesson 17: The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle & Evangelist John the Theologian, Rev. 18:11-24 (Series 4), by Fr. Peter Heers
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[@wv9459]

I’ve never wanted kids my whole life. Been married almost 4 years. Had a copper iud for one year in 2019 but got rid of it cause it was miserable, learned how to track my cycle using FAM and we’ve avoided pregnancy successfully. First heard of the Orthodox Church around August 2023. Been attending since December 2023. Sometime in January/February while I was praying I knew God wanted me to submit that part of my life to him. I used to pray intentionally to NOT have children, but then I gave that up. I prayed God would make it clear to my husband as well if we were to have children cause there was no way I would baby trap him and manipulate him into being a father if he didn’t want to be. Middle of May after church one day on the drive home, husband tells me that God was speaking to him and we will be having kids someday. I was so speechless 😂 received into the church in June. Now praying to conceive. Pray for us!

[@OrthodoxEthos]

Glory to God. Glory to God. Glory to God. Doing HIS WILL will make you so joyful and peaceful. May it be blessed!

[@katiek.8808]

How old are you? What is your whole life? 4 years of marriage. I’m assuming you are young. Sounds like you grew up to me.

[@wv9459]

@@katiek.8808 I’m 25. I can remember as far back as like elementary/middle school hating talking about having kids someday. I never wanted kids. I guess you could say ‘grow up’ but idk man I was definitely deceived into thinking having children would be the end of the world. How could one understand the purpose of having children without understanding the purpose of human life? Without understanding the purpose of human life, everything else is up to personal preference and what is most enjoyable and convenient. There was nothing enjoyable about having kids to me before, but now with understanding human life, it makes more sense to me. I know this wasn’t just ‘growing up.’ This was a complete 180 change. Going from abortion as plan B to deciding to accept life… that’s a moral change of heart, not simply growing up.

[@katiek.8808]

@@wv9459 I think growing up is the moral change of heart. I don’t mean your physical age.

[@JohnDoe-fv2qk]

Thank you for your service Father

[@BMC867]

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own lusts, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

[@AAA-tc6li]

2 Timothy 4,3-4

[@MajorMustang1117]

​@donhaddix3770 Protestantism literally has only existed for 500 years. I.E. > False teachers. Hence why they all use the Sacred Scriptures and agree on nothing.

[@garrettbar2212]

@@donhaddix3770 and who composed the bible for you? Also I prefer to use the interpretation of the disciples of Christ, not your interpretation. God bless you.

[@MajorMustang1117]

@@donhaddix3770 to correct you; Orthodoxy does not agree on what Protestants believe the Bible says. Everything in the Sacred Scriptures is believed in Holy Orthodoxy. That's why I left Protestantism.

[@MajorMustang1117]

@donhaddix3770 yes. The Bible already says there are teachings and actions not in the Bible. So while nothing can contradict the Bible, just because it isn't 'in' the Bible isn't a problem. Example: A man has his wife dying besides him and cries out to Jesus for her to be healed. The woman sees Jesus and is healed and both believe in Jesus. I guess cause that's not 'in the Bible it shouldn't be spoken about? Or; a man discovers his prayer life is improved by reflecting on the many Christians who have died for Christ's name. I guess he can't do that or encourage others to do it because it's not in the Bible.

[@WORKOUTSOLUTIONS]

✝️CHRIST IS RISEN ☀️ ❤💪👩‍❤️‍👨🙏✝ GOD BE WITH US AGAINST EVIL AND TEMPTATIONS ✝🙏⛪️💍🕊

[@jarrisonsteiner9917]

This comment section is crazy. There are people in this comment section spreading information they supposedly received from their “spiritual father” as if that somehow makes it valid Orthodox wisdom, and another woman telling everybody that a spiritual father can bear your sin if he gives you false sinful advice. This is crazy. You are ultimately responsible for your spiritual life and will answer for it, not somebody else. They may answer for causing you to sin, but so will you. Ultimately, we are sinful people, and most of us will not be saints, at least in this life. The way is narrow and few are those who find it. But to be Orthodox, to work towards Theosis is to adopt and participate in the mind of Christ, the Orthodox Phronema. To allow the Holy Spirit to embody you is to embrace the creative love of God. Jesus tells us that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be tossed into the fire, and this accounts for both spiritual and actual “fruits”. A lot of people take Paul out of his cultural context and assume that because he said it is better to be married than to burn with passion means that we can have all the sex we want if we are married, but this is obviously not the case and Paul assuredly would not have condoned on demand sex for married couples. We are all called to abstinence, not just monastics, such as during fasting periods, the day before receiving communion, etc…. The sexual revolution has fundamentally changed the relationship between men and women, tricking us into believing that we are somehow owed consequence free sex, and our generation will probably remain confused on this topic for far beyond our lifetimes. Everybody who is confused, please continue to pray, fast, go to Church! Err on the side of temperance if you can! The Christian life that we are called to is not easy, we are called to bear our Cross daily.

[@aureum7479]

Sex is ultimately used for two things, procreation and emotional bonding with the partner, and we are not called to abstinence. There isn’t a limit on how much sex we can have with our spouses.

[@jarrisonsteiner9917]

@@aureum7479 This is just wrong. I agree that sex is for two things, procreation and emotional bonding, but you cannot separate the two without cutting yourself off from the tree of life. Every thought and action must be held captive to Christ. As Christians, our actions are either life giving and fruitful, or the path to destruction, there is no neutrality. To cut off the life creating portion of sex is to cut yourself off from the spirit. A body without a spirit is dead.

[@mrsnkg7904]

What about Natural Family Planning (Billings Method: ie just abstaining during fertile times). We used it very successfully for years when we were Roman Catholic (both for avoiding and achieving pregnancy)?

[@jaroslavkyprianpolak]

Souds like cheating to me...

[@3devdas777]

NFP is still attempting to avoid procreation which separates the sexual union from the purpose God intended.

[@annazoemusic]

Technically along these lines of thought, it likely is not trusting in Gods providence either. Talk with your own spiritual father about your own personal situation. Any sins committed will fall on him, and not you. An ideal is great, but not everyone is spiritually ready for such ideals or rigidness, and must work slower toward repentance throughout their lifetime. These are not black and white issues, especially if the couple wasn’t both born and raised Orthodox AND with a spiritual father with these same opinions. Thankfully God is One of Grace and Mercy!

[@gamertarians1634]

He specifically says in the video that's okay, because you're still open to conception and therefore trusting in the providence of God.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@jaroslavkyprianpolak Don’t be a Pharisee. It’s stupid to just not think about it. I would guarantee you’re not a parent, probably not married either.

[@agucci]

Christ is the best birth control. Whatever He decides shall be. ❤

[@mango38628]

So true, even says in the OT God opens and closes the womb

[@Gigi-Anai8c7l]

you must have someone paying your bills

[@danielokoth3265]

Amen...Thank you for enlightenment

[@danielxsimmons]

Just so I can be clear. Are condoms occasionally within marriage a sin? Even if the marriage is open to having children?

[@alfamejeu7237]

Yes it’s still a sin according to the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

One observation is that by separating the sexual act from procreation and justifying it in terms of personal emotional fulfillment society has created the climate which makes same sex relations acceptable. It is no accident that same sex relations are accepted by those supposedly Christian denominations which accept without question artificial contraception and abortion. One cannot say that intentionally sterile sex is alright for heterosexuals and then claim it is immoral for people who are homosexuals. Secondly, artificial contraception is an enormous money maker for big Pharma which is why there is no effort to develop methods of spacing children by natural means. Spacing children by respecting the bodies God gave us threatens their profits. Finally, the biggest myth of artificial contraception is that it has liberated woman when in fact it chemically violates her body and its natural God given functions and has deprived her of the right to demand that she be respected in her totality as a human being and not as the momentary instrument of a man's satisfaction. Artificial contraception has deprived women of their God given right to demand commitment in the sacrament of marriage and has replaced this commitment with the amorphous and fraudulent notion of being in a relationship.

[@adenise__122]

its related to the degeneracy of people who cant be abstinent in marriage. normally with each kid youd abstain for 9 months of pregnancy and 1-2 years after but people lost all sanity. the result is the society we have today

[@rh10033]

I agree that most forms of birth control are not good because they are abortifacients. But I honestly don't see the difference between using condoms and NFP. Both are used to avoid pregnancy. What's the difference? Also, are you okay with large family receiving government aid because most couples would need to accept some form of help whether for health insurance, food, or tax credits at some point in order to have as many children as possible. I'm all for big families and believe that children are a gift, but in modern times it's very hard to support a 12 child household. I'm on baby number 5, pregnancy number 7 and it's hard living off of one income for us. I understand that it's wrong to stop having children for selfish reasons like just wanting a bigger retirement fund or having extra money for hobbies. But many people simply can't afford to take care of huge families in our high cost of living society.

[@alfamejeu7237]

I’d def recommend seeking government help. I know there’s some government funding in big families. In the USA families get a ton of money a year per children especially if you’re married and together. So idk what you’re talking abt..

[@rh10033]

@alfamejeu7237 I'm not saying families shouldn't seek help, but am asking if this priest is okay with that. Many Christians I know are not okay with large families receiving any form of government aid because they believe it's theft. I am an anomaly where I come from. Most Christians where I live, no matter their denomination, have about 2 children. Some have 3 or 4, but once you reach 4, bad comments start coming. Hmmm...I do receive tax credits, but they have mainly been used to pay off huge hospital bills for giving birth. I will have to use this year's tax refund to help pay my $9k hospital bill to give birth to baby number 5. The refund won't even completely cover that cost. The years where I haven't given birth, it has gone towards helping to pay for vehicles. But it's certainly not enough to help pay for a large house for 12 children. The cost of housing is skyrocketing. The tax credits are also not guaranteed to continue in the future and are not fully refundable. Depending on your tax bracket, they either lower the amount of taxes you owe or you get a portion refunded.

[@alfamejeu7237]

@@rh10033 Well, it also depends on how you spend your money. I knew a woman who had 12-15 kids I don’t remember. Everyone would critique her for having so many kids (she was Protestant). She received more than 20 grand by the government (this was in NY). She had like 3 houses and her husband worked as a cook. It doesn’t matter what others say, at the end of the day if you look at blue zones on the earth (where people live longer) they have bigger families. Family isn’t a curse but a blessing. I think that bigger families can receive food stamps etc for help. I know that republicans try to offer more money plans for stay at home moms.

[@rh10033]

@@alfamejeu7237 I agree that family is a blessing. I've never heard of such a thing. Most Republicans I know are the ones telling me it would be wrong for me to get on Medicaid to help pay for my hospital bills. In a way, I see their point that if every married couple had lots of kids and took government aid, there would be no tax money anymore to fund these programs. It's a hard balance.

[@rh10033]

@@alfamejeu7237 Also, it is hard to qualify for food stamps in the US. If you have certain assets, like more than one vehicle, you automatically can't get food stamps.

[@alexc4159]

What do we do if one spouse has converted to Orthodoxy but the other hasn't.? Is it fair to burden a spouse with commitments you had not made before marrage, that they themselves aren't ready for.? My spouse is nominally Christian and a little anxious as it is about me considering Orthodoxy. How would someone recommend I be fair, accommodating, and considerate to my spouse, and true to my faith commitments. We both plan on having children next year who will be raised in The denomination I commit them to. so avoiding children isn't the issue, just trying to figure out how I ought to navigate this particular predicament.

[@ShockedSquirrelhere]

I have the same issue- I had tried to join orthodox but it was putting so much stress on my marriage- it’s been 3 years and I still don’t know what to do 😢❤ I will pray for you; please pray for me, if you can/see this

[@alexc4159]

@Readrose8 Thanks for preying brother, You're in my preys. God bless your marriage and your faith. May you have a happy marriage full of patience and virtue. May the Lord soften your wifes heart to trust you in this important decision. And may you both be patient and kind as you both find your way through turbulent seas.

[@belle.etrangere]

I would talk about the nature of sex (it is not something that only unites the couple but also has the purpose of procreation). I would try to explain about natural methods of control, which take into account the woman's menstrual cycle (search about the Billings method) and I would pray for God to give me wisdom to deal with that because I know it's not easy

[@I.Am.Will.]

St. Paul tells you to convert regardless. Read his 1st epistle to the Corinthians, in chapter 7 specifically.

[@alexc4159]

​@I.Am.Will. I am converting, and my wife has accepted that much, she has also accepted that our children will be raised in the Orthadox church. Where I struggle is signing her up to commitments she isn't ready for and didn't sign up for by proxy of my faith commitment. For example, I can fast and still cook her a steak, me fasting isn't a tough conversation for that reason. Me all of a sudden telling her that I can no longer use contraception, which wasn't even a thought yet alone an issue when she married me because I was secular at the time. Now that I'm at a Church I can finally talk to a spiritual father about it, but it's gonna be a delicate situation to say the least.

[@ilovechrist914]

Hey just a question, Me and my wife have 2 children, and we both agree we don't want anymore. We are married but we don't want to risk wife falling pregnant again based on her age now nearly 40 ect. How do we avoid falling pregnant ? Orthodoxy doesn't agree in vasectomy if me and my wife agree not to have anymore kids ? How do we avoid this? Or is it just trust in God ? Can someone please be clear on this or can I use condoms Just need to be certain Thanks

[@annazoemusic]

Talk with your own spiritual father about your own situation. If he advises something different from what Fr. Peter says, and he very well might, and it ends up not being blessed by God, the sin falls on the soul of your spiritual father, not you.

[@ilovechrist914]

@GhibaGigi-r3j that's crazy though I'll check with my spiritual father and see.

[@ilovechrist914]

@GhibaGigi-r3j I'm not saying they ant. But a normal person who's 33 years of age who is dirt compared to the saints even if I wanted to do it and not have sex at all. Don't know if that's even healthy on the body

[@ilovechrist914]

@GhibaGigi-r3j yeah Cradle

[@ilovechrist914]

@@donhaddix3770 lol I literally would be athiest then a protestant made up sola sciptura from the 15th century man made invention

[@aureum7479]

What about condoms ? As it’s not the same as taking a pill

[@stanpienkiew1363]

its sill between the woman and the man

[@alfamejeu7237]

No it is a sin in both Catholic and orthodox teaching.

[@rh10033]

@@aureum7479 I don't see how condoms are any different than NFP used to avoid pregnancy. Neither one has the capacity to kill a life.

[@luxar.1998]

❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍❣💕💞

[@nicp2344]

If someone works as a nurse and they have to give birth control id that a sin?

[@hueylongenjoyer3747]

​@@donhaddix3770The Orthodox Church isn't just the Bible. Bible is part of the Orthodox Tradition

[@garrettbar2212]

@@donhaddix3770 where do you get your information? Or are you going to say "The Bible". Arians used the bible to justify their positions too.

[@nicko9046]

@@garrettbar2212 Don't listen to him, he is being intentionally closed minded.

[@ChristianKnight-1054]

​@@nicko9046 Protestants am I right?

[@danielokoth3265]

@@nicp2344 for your conscious...I think it is best to warn the patient on God's judgement of killing innocent babies using contraceptive pills...so she can chose to follow JESUS CHRIST or Caesar...but it is Godly if you don't dispense it

[@jaroslavkyprianpolak]

Oh, Father, I have watched this video, I have seen more of your talks, and I would like to give you a little feedback: I almost always agree almost everything what you say, with the factual content of the message. But at the same time, you strike fear in me. I'm missing at least a little bit of love in all the zeal. I believe you have love, but I don't feel it. In this particular case, and in many others, I believe a priest, with the bishop's approval, could allow mitigation in some cases. It is the fact that our faith is challenging, but at the same time not legalistic, like Western Christianity, that brought me to Orthodoxy. I sense a very strong and uncompromising legaslism from your speeches. It haunts me. I don't think I can watch you channel anymore. In Christ, Kyprian

[@LadyMaria]

Perhaps this is a personal issue with how you think people should act.

[@jaroslavkyprianpolak]

@LadyMaria Yes, sure. It is a subjective view of course.

[@annazoemusic]

Follow the advise of your own spiritual father for your own situation. It’s not bad to hear other teachings, and consider them, but we are to listen to and obey our own spiritual father, not someone else’s. If your spiritual fathers advise ends up not being blessed by God, then the sin falls on him, not you.

[@jaroslavkyprianpolak]

​@@annazoemusicYes, that's exactly what I'm doing. But a lot of people heading towards conversion are getting their information from KZbin. That's what I did less than four years ago. I'm glad the Lord on brought other YT channels than this one to my attention. The bottom line is that the Orthodox canons are not a legal minimum to be followed for salvation, but an ideal that we want to work toward out of love for God. Of course, in this particular case, Father Peter may is right cannonicaly, but people are weak and that is what the ikonomia and the spiritual father are for, and the gradual work of purification and improvement. If you put too heavy burden on someone who is weak at the beginning of the journey, they can break. This happened to a friend of mine who ended up in a psychiatric ward and now is not Orthodox but proponent of ekumenism...

[@jaroslavkyprianpolak]

​@GhibaGigi-r3jIt's true that I've come across some complete fanatics on YT. But I wouldn't write this to them, because there the feedback would be meaningless. I block such channels outright in the interest of preserving my sanity 😉 But otherwise I find AFR and Father Seraphim Aldea (Mull Monastery) the most rewarding.

[@Eve90]

What about condoms in marriage? Serious question.. or the other method...

[@nicko9046]

My understanding is that condoms are a no-go because you're artificially blocking the potential of pregnancy, but pulling out is OK because it's not artificial, if that makes any sense. I've heard it explained much better than this though.

[@ChristianKnight-1054]

​@@nicko9046 So the deed that doesn't result in a baby isn't forbidden? I always assumed It was.

[@hayeshopper8998]

I disagree. There is a sin in the Old Testament named after a guy that did this I think

[@LadyMaria]

No.

[@LadyMaria]

​@@nicko9046Pulling out isn't okay either.

[@raphael-o9m4c]

Is it biologically possible that average lay married people can have totally dispassionate marital relation (without pleasure) like Saint Anne and Saint Joachim? if we can do it under mutual agreement then we will never need birth control, not even need natural family planning. We can even live as brother and sister more easily after childbearing age... This teaching reminds me of some anicent Catholic Saints who were against sexual pleasure even in a lawful procreative marital relation, which influenced many pious people to cover their body during the procreative act.. So they are not attached to what they call foul pleasure and have sex only for procreation for whole lifetime... By the way I am not against people having large family / very large family. It is just not everyone can properly parent/ carry 10-25 children to full term. And even parents who have many children need to have sex only once per 2-3 year. (avoid sex during pregnancy and during breastfeeding) So it seems that according to teaching from Peter Heers and some Priests and Elders, married couples should almost live like monastic people for life. It seems that even many Orthodox Christian Church Fathers are kind of sex negative. (I like monasticism but this teaching seems very strict to many people)

[@adenise__122]

there cant be sex is a passion itself, harsh truth. its madness that people cant give it up. just think of how mad it is that most people cant give up this nonsense.

[@rh10033]

@@raphael-o9m4c Most people on this day and age are addicted to p*RN and enslaved to sexual sin, Christian or not. It's a terrible truth that the church has not properly addressed. Our society has lost all sense of decency and there is no more modesty, even for Christian women. So suggesting something like this in marriage seems pretty impractical when you realize the type of generation you are trying to evangelize. Be happy if two people get married and aren't living in fornication. I can't tell you how many times I see this in churches...Then there are the sex scandals with clergy....

[@ishitrealbad3039]

2:02 pretty sure this is not the case but i could be wrong. essentially what the pill actually does, is make the testosterone that the woman's body makes, to become inusable for the body. This means that a woman on the pill, essentially has no testosterone (atleast working testosterone) which makes her infertile. the same as if a woman would be too low bodyfat percentage, for example. Only the morning after pill maybe can make a woman still pregnant, but a woman who's consistently on the pill won't even be able to get pregnant. The downside of no testosterone for women tho, is ofcourse high stress factors and anxiety and an increase in bodyweight usually.

[@LadyMaria]

No, the pill makes the woman's body think she's pregnant which requires a certain higher amount of estrogen and progesterone, and hCG levels. It has nothing to do with the male hormone testosterone which women have a low amount (high levels cause infertility in women). When I had premature ovarian failure I was given the pill for the estrogen and progesterone hormones to restart things. The pill causes the fertilized egg not to implant. That is abr0tion.

[@ishitrealbad3039]

@@LadyMaria nothing i said was a lie or false. the pill causes the testosterone a woman's body makes to become unusable. this is why women who pursue bodybuilding can't be on the pill.

[@julianabramlett6178]

@LadyMaria is correct.

[@ishitrealbad3039]

@@LadyMaria that might be true, but what i said also was not false.

[@LadyMaria]

@@ishitrealbad3039 It was false as that's not what the pill does.

[@orthodox.saints.teachers]

❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍❣💕💞💓