Brandon Sanderson Lecture 4: Giving characters a life beyond the plot (4/6)

[@GhoulishGwyn]

For those wondering about what's written on the board from the unfortunately removed section of video, the "manic pixie dream girl" is a trope where a female character is unrealistically cheerful all the time (as only that one mood), and exists to cheer up the main male character. Mary Jane Watson in the silver age is a great example of how to subvert this trope and use it for good.

[@GhoulishGwyn]

Censoring the lecture to avoid offending people is majorly not cool. If it was part of the lecture, it was probably important.

[@SanbaiSan]

Why did you cut the MPDG? It's a pretty huge trope and lots of guys fall hard into that trap. Seems pretty lame to "censor" education and advice to writers!

[@SanbaiSan]

Ah, had to watch a few seconds more. Brandon, it's a well known fact that most fiction readers are women. Women buy the most books. You don't need to worry about offending the MRAs, because they probably won't be the majority of your buyers anyway. Maybe the uploader could post a private link to the removed clip? One that only people with the link can see? I would love to hear what he said. :)

[@dngn4774]

+SanbaiSan Isn't the Pixie trope more offensive to male writers than female readers? If anything, you'd think that female viewers would appreciate it's criticism even more than men.

[@SanbaiSan]

dngn4774 Oh yeah, female viewers would definitely appreciate it! So why cut it out? I've know quite a few male writers who didn't even know they were falling into this trope! It would edify female readers/viewers and infinitely aid male writers/readers!

[@larrylovehandle8472]

SanbaiSan stop generalizing please. You could just as easily have an mpd boy. And the trope isn't necessarily bad in itself, as long as you add some depth. Every character falls into one trope or another.

[@jedscratchard1204]

that's absolute bullshit that they censored this. That was a really valuable lesson that he was discussing

[@camb06]

"if the reader realizes that's gonna be a problem before the character realizes it, that's a good thing" I love those moments in books, where you go "oooooh, it's about to hit the fan"

[@bluejay9840]

Censoring.... Noooooooo. I really wanted to hear what Brandon had to say because he was bringing up a really good point.

[@zachariusd]

Has it been too many years to add my voice to the chorus of dismay regarding the cut content?

[@improvementTime10.3.17]

1:00 flat = writing char into roles rather than individuals to themselves Very common when writing to gender opposite of you 2:00 When think of char as love interest then they will just become a solid perfect character The MC will be goofy and make mistakes while the partner rolls eyes at the antics but irl we all act more like the MC 2:40 to avoid this give char things to char outside of plot and MC 4:50 Different stages of desires creates depth of char Because when plot starts these passions and desires don’t just go away still want them during the plot it adds depth In addition to plot caused desires = Dimensions and depth - Peter Parker before plot) wants to go on date, geeky sci do adventure, become a scientist - Hit by plot) fighting bad guys, protecting people - After plot) ? 5:30 don’t wanna over emphasis a specific passion, it can become annoying Like lost, gut said he wants to find his son and just keeps repeating it Makes him flat and annoying 5:55 multiple passions and desires And when they conflict with each other That’s going to round them out quite a bit 7:00 example of real char multiple passions MC gains a lot of powers But fav chap of many is when he just takes a day to sit down and make door latches Because he is originally a blacksmith and loves that, saving the world is cool and all but sometimes just wants to relax to making things 8:15 making conflicts of passions Is always going to be contrived and that’s okay Stories are all coincidental It’s about how to make it work woth proper foreshadowing etc Writing is hiding this contrived nature

[@badproductioncompany893]

Who cares about PC, I'm trying to learn stuff darn it!

[@monkeyhighlord4412]

i thought the pc thing is personal computer so i was ok if it corncerns his PC's well being, but yeah darn it

[@zmunk]

He's right -- that is one of my favorite sttng episodes... "inner light"!

[@Taylorwest626]

Could I get the censored portion posted as a separate video please?

[@MaximilianNeuer]

I love BBC's Merlin!! It's the best family fantasy show..

[@TheBlackmoon918]

I love how around the 9:30 mark, Sanderson starts talking about a love interest, and he's clearly using male pronouns to describe this love interest, but the CC's use female pronouns. It actually contradicts what he talks about later in part 6 of this lecture where Sanderson encourages his class to not think of female characters as the love interest all the time. Maybe redo the CC's on this one?

[@yipyipyipi]

To add options for writers, when the girl asked about other relationships besides romance, think of any relationship you could fetishize. Teacher/student or as sanderson put it, mentor relations, are common sources of illicit loves. There's a reason people tend to develop these crushes because it can be, without being romantic, a very intimate relationship. Also, for those who want to know about Manic Pixie Dream Girls, go check out some think pieces on the way 500 days of summer semi-subverts this trope. There are also good things to learn by delving into the "born sexy yesterday" trope, which both amateur and accomplished writers can do without meaning to as well.

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

4:42 All the Peter Parker nerds stood up immediately 😂😂, it's like when someone mention "anime" or "brazilian" on a stream.

[@OpisCossack]

Cut for PC issues.. "You PC, BRO?"

[@tangentwhisper1486]

+OpisCossack I'm PC, but I'm not prejudiced against those who play Xbox One and PS4 ^_^

[@69Schalk]

heck yeah bro im PC im ready to throw down.. We are language police! Fighting bigotry! Hurtful words can suck our turds! 'Cause it's PC for me... And you! (Woo Woo) !!

[@blackhawksfan2525]

I would love to know what was cut out. I'm actually struggling with a couple female characters in my own book, and I was thinking this section might have some really good insight for me. It's sad that even education can't be free from of censorship anymore.

[@NickEnlowe]

Thinking about unsubbing after seeing some of the content here was censored. Very upset at this.

[@mattthecoolfish]

Could always make the characters eat more if you want them to be round.

[@onecupmove]

Judging from what Brandon's written on the board, the censored portion is about this: watch?v=uqJUxqkcnKA

[@necooo]

5:48 WAAAAAALT

[@melrakan]

Throwing gummy bears as motivation for learning is really cute haha. We're just apes barely out of the jungle, still yearning for those gummy bear rewards, all that stuff. Good teacher

[@isaiahwilliams2233]

The Stormfather .

[@varana]

Good idea; and probably disable comments. *g* The "cut for PC reasons" was quite jarring and distracting from the otherwise outstanding series. And judging by what he wrote on the board, I really would've loved to hear what he had to say about that topic.

[@levitatingoctahedron922]

"you shouldn't have censored that!" "you should probably disable comments..." what did he mean by this

[@solzenstein]

PC considerations... the times we live in...

[@satanlover134]

11:50 Morgana should have won!

[@kevinscottbailey8335]

Cutting MPDG info from the lecture was so ludicrous I'm taking you off my subscriptions. Good lord.

[@Rexodiak]

8 years later, censoring content that is clearly not offensive is still a bad move that you did not adress in any way. You give your ideology a bad name.

[@emylievyrling534]

WE ❤ TIME!

[@Aluenvey]

WIth that said, romance should never overtake the plot. Romance is good for subplot. But i don't like sap. Here is looking at love at first sight.

[@w0mblemania]

Well, that was a red rag to a bull. Writing is supposed to be about expression, not self-censoring ideas to appease fashionable, arbitrary politics.

[@Matt_Volk]

BYU censoring out any trace of feminism... old news, still annoying.

[@Mandora11en]

YO. I appreciate you didnt want to offend anyone but if you still have this clip you edited out would you let me know? Just respond to this comment and i'll write you a personal with an email address in it. I would really like to know what is said.

[@MoonshineSazerac]

Pft, rookie. Should have blamed the 'edited out' reason on a bust camera. That way you'd avoid people thinking you were a pro-censorship mormon.

[@777GuitarShred]

Thanks!

[@drinkdriveundertheinfluence]

It's a good think they cut that part out, since we're here to learn how to write better characters, not here to hear the same feminist bullshit again. It's irrelevant. Yes, writing male and female characters that act as LOVE INTERESTS (yes, it happens to both sides * shock *) is not as great as writing them as CHARACTERS on their own. Case closed.

[@gwynethmullins3221]

Gábor Tamási Either a troll or ignorant.

[@w0mblemania]

​@@gwynethmullins3221 You sound like you have a closed mind. Everyone who doesn't agree with your very specific, fashionable worldview is an ignorant troll. Maybe it's you that has the problem? You could well be the kind of person who helps people like Trump get elected, as a reaction to your approach.

[@stagosaurus3181]

This lecture was in 2012, no? The term "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" (and its associated trope) was widely used around that time, and I'm guessing Sanderson just wanted to give an easy example of what to avoid. From what I've seen in other videos discussing the trope though, it isn't about feminism as much as it is about one-dimensional love interests. Rest assured.