Breaking down Lily Orchard's favorite "Mary Sues" (Ft

[@periodicpete]

Damn, this vid doin numbers EDIT: WOW! I had no idea how many people would find this video. Just a reminder: this video isn't monetized. So if you want to support me and see more videos like this, please consider visiting my patreon. Would really help a lot: patreon.com/PeriodicPete

[@themechanic9974]

Ngl Lilly dose that to everything except her own videos lol😂

[@feralwarden4873]

Can you please make that Strong Female Character Mo Tage a separate video.

[@periodicpete]

@@feralwarden4873 Done! kzbin.infocsJhPwnggyQ

[@SirPsychonautic]

On everybody.... On everybody.... like, mentally.....

[@feralwarden4873]

@@periodicpete Thank You! I'm gonna go put it on. Repeat until I hate it now.

[@Silvercubestudios]

Lily is the type of person that (unironically) would turn evil the second they get powers.

[@chaoticgoodcreations947]

Lesbian Homelander

[@bungiecrimes7247]

​@@chaoticgoodcreations947the worst kind of homelander

[@wastelandgames9409]

​@@bungiecrimes7247 found the nazi

[@Silvercubestudios]

@@bungiecrimes7247 yup. A pure and unadulteraded agent of chaos

[@mekiherring2088]

now i have this cringe image of lily in a homelander outfit

[@theagentsquidfiles504]

I think you're missing an element of Elle Woods' "like it's hard?" Line that helps bolster your point. She's not just showing off to impress the guy, and it's not just that it genuinely did take a while lot of work on her part, but also a huge part of the conflict Elle runs into is everybody thinks she's stupid because of her personality, style and interests. She falls very nearly into the "popular pretty girl" stereotype because she put a huge amount of time and effort into style and social engagements, and because that's considered vapid and shallow, people don't take her seriously and assume she's dumb. But part of Elle's point by remaining confident in her abilities and demeanor isn't just because she's not afraid to be herself, but to show people "of course I got into Harvard, just like you did, because I am smart, just like you are". Her confidence in that moment carries within it one of the major hurdles that she has to overcome while at Harvard, and Lily uses it as an example of someone without struggles. Also: how dare you call this a B-movie, you will be hearing from my lawyers. The Cease-and-Desist will be scented.

[@Ironcorgi2]

Ya legally blonde is a well crafted movie that is feminist but not in a man hating aspect but in the vein of just because things are considered feminine does not mean they stupid. Elle woods isn’t a Mary sue because she isn’t presented as perfect but her brilliance comes in she puts the effort she puts into understanding fashion, social situations and other things into law studies. It’s such a great law movie.

[@sambrickman6858]

Fundamentally, the issue with a Mary Sue is not the character themselves, it's that the story does not contain or challenge them. Superman becomes a Mary Sue if he's put in the Walking Dead universe and spends his time mowing down zombies from above without any moral dilemmas or people to challenge him. Rick Grimes becomes a Mary Sue if he's dropped next to Joy Newsome from Room and just shoots her captor in the forehead. The issue I find with the term is just that it seems to imply that the problem is a quality innate to the character, when it isn't.

[@pikminman13]

Like anything else you can absolutely do it right too. Look at say, Loid Forger from Spy X Family. Good at almost everything, liked by everyone that isn’t his enemy. What makes it work is that 1. He is established as this from the start with a known history as the best spy in the world and 2. He still has to figure out how to act as a parent, which is a main point of the show. You aren’t questioning whether or not he will succeed, but how he will do it and what will go wrong.

[@Thebigem]

You mentioned 2 Garry Stews, Not Mary Sues

[@pikminman13]

@@Thebigem its the same concept. the only reason it started as female is because of the character where the term originates, and the general bias to where you would find characters like this in its early eras of fanfiction written by self insert female authors. the archetype applies to both, and these days its the same.

[@Noscopenoproblem]

@@Thebigem There is no fundamental difference between "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu/Stew", the terms are interchangeable and Gary Stu exists only as shorthand for "Male Mary Sue".

[@MrDj232]

It is somewhat a character problem in that this problem tends to arise because the character is a self insert. There's a reason its name comes from a fanfic parody, and that's because this happens most commonly when amateur writers put overpowered self inserts into an existing story that wasn't meant for them. Like what many modern Hollywood writers are doing with various reboots, remakes, and reimaginings of popular franchises.

[@prodigylps6204]

Darth vader the guy who lost every thing he ever cared about became a slave to his abuser and then died is a “Mary Sue”

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Come to think of it, if Darth Vader truly was a Mary Sue, then Darth Vader wouldn’t exist, not even as a character. If everything went perfectly for Anakin, if he never had real flaws, moral conflit, and never lost fights like how Rey does, if his life wasn’t always bad, I don’t think he COULD become Darth Vader, because Vader is the result of all those existing conflicts for Ankain that became his downfall. Anakin wouldn’t even be in a cyborgs suit if he was a mary sue.

[@errwhattheflip]

yeah I can't see how someone could ever delude themselves into thinking Vader is a mary sue. He's one of the most flawed characters ever conceived

[@thealientree3821]

Born a slave, gets kidnapped by a cult of monks to become a slave again, has intense anger issues, same monks go against his ideals of love and passion and essentially gets betrayed in his eyes, joins the Dark Side, commits William Afton, gets all his limbs cut off, be in constant torment and pain, sacrifices himself. Apparently "Mary Sue" enough.

[@snakewithacomputer849]

​@@anotherrandomguy8871 I don't really watch star wars but isn't Anakin's anger and hatred a lot of the reason he becomes Vader? (Or at least what makes Anakin and Obi-Wan fight?)

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

@@snakewithacomputer849 Yup. Anakin has a lot of anger and tramua and is misguided and that’s what leads to the Obi-wan fight everything.

[@Ironcorgi2]

To say captain America is a Mary sue misses the character entirely. In the mcu he kind of is a tragic hero who always takes the sacrifice even to his own detriment. That’s his flaw.

[@KaiserShounen]

Not to meantion, he takes so many losses and so many risks

[@KissatenYoba]

"always takes the sacrifice even to his own detriment" - that's a mary sue trait lmao. It's in the same category of flaws as "likes his friends too much"

[@KaiserShounen]

@@KissatenYoba A mary sue isn't JUST a character who has flaws though. There is other criteria needed for a character to fit the bill. A character who doesn't have flaws isn't necessarily a bad character or a Sue

[@KissatenYoba]

@@KaiserShounen flaws not actually being flaws is mary sue.

[@KaiserShounen]

@@KissatenYoba It is a common trait of a mary sue but that is not the sole trait of one. Captain America may barely have flaws but he still has challenges that he overcomes in engaging ways, he's not seriously OP, and the plot doesn't completely revolve around him. There are some times when the MCU gives him conveniences, but it is not consistent enough for him to be a sue

[@d.j.mulcahy1657]

Another thing I’d add is who the Mary Sue is meant to appeal to. In most works of escapism, an overpowered protagonist is usually designed for the enjoyment of the audience. Meanwhile, with Lily’s brand of Mary Sues, especially in her own writing, you can tell she’s the only one having fun. It’s a vehicle for her to give herself power, charisma, and romances she’d never have in real life and to put herself at the center of entire universes where she’s the most important person ever born. That’s what I think separates characters who are simply overpowered from full-blown Mary Sues.

[@ma.2089]

OP characters can be Mary sues, but not all OP characters are Mary sues/gary stus. In fact, a lot of them aren’t, and their Gary Mary-ness comes from the world warping itself for the benefit of said character.

[@SobiTheRobot]

In works containing a Mary Sue, literally *everything* in the plot revolved around the Sue or making her look good. Every character has an opinion on Sue: the likeable characters adore her (including villains) and the hateable characters hate her (including supposed heroes that the author dislikes). Mary Sue always knows what to do or finds a convenient solution or just happens to be the right person for every job.

[@fluffywolfo3663]

Essentially, a good overpowered protag is someone that makes you feel like you’re along for the ride, while lily’s are kinda masturbatory.

[@flynnferal5878]

​@@fluffywolfo3663 "masturbatory" is actually a great way to sum up the Mary Sue problem - when it feels like the author is just wanking with a character, rather than caring if the reader has fun

[@entr3_nou5]

Feel like it’s worth noting: Lily thinks that “Mary Sue = cool character with lots of powers” because that was the prominent belief in chronically online fandom circles, primarily Bronies. She doesn’t have the video up now because she incriminates herself with writing her incest fic in it, but Lily made a video once about how you shouldn’t limit yourself to only writing slice of life stories about characters just going about their day because if you give your pony OC special powers and stakes in a story with canon characters Bronies will label your character a Sue. That, in its fandom vacuum, is good advice. The problem is that Lily doesn’t consume any media on its own. She’s always half-finishing shit and relying on Tumblr users to fill in the gaps on what she didn’t feel like watching. She’s surrounded herself with the same Tumblr fandom mindsets and KZbinr critiques for YEARS, hence why her own mindset on what makes a character a Sue is, ironically, very dated with how progressive she likes to claim she is.

[@KaiserShounen]

*Pretends to be totally surprised by this*

[@cyruscrompton8221]

Lily is VERY well known for not understanding writing and writing terms Like in her new SU video she straight up gets "metaphor" and "simile" totally wrong

[@Nameless-ln5mr]

With the way Lily seems to go after action heroes, I’d probably blame it on the fact that she seems to hate high-stakes action stories, and believes that low-stakes coffee shop comedies are always superior. Never mind the fact that the thing that makes a good story is quality and not genre…

[@Isaac-ze4fl]

Can i just add that regardless of sueness or anything else, Lily Orchard demonstrated a complete lack of comphrension of people because using force lightning, an explicitly evil power to kill one of your friends is a valid thing to angst about

[@SearedBooks]

Yeah, but you have more power, and the more power you have the more good you feel because now you can abuse people better without them being able to stop you. That's great, and exactly what I think of when I think about heroes.

[@underconstruction6436]

31:14 "She just is a child" that's an insult to children. Literal kids could come up with better stories after playing with action figures for a few minutes than Lily ever has and ever could (other than that great video).

[@KaiserShounen]

Appreciate it

[@periodicpete]

Seconded!

[@demonicaturner]

I was 12 when I started making OC characters in middle school, and I swear to god I never liked having an absolute perfect original character. Everyone has admitted to making a Mary Sue OC that somehow makes the entirety of the reality of the world they live in bend in their favor, I've never liked that idea even as a kid that everything has to go right all the time and nothing ever goes wrong for them is just super unrealistic and that is was more compelling for something to actually going wrong for them and how they handle that. Again I was a kid and that was my mindset when making my OCs imagine being an adult and enjoying and defending the Mary Sue trope to that degree

[@CasualUshanka]

Thanks :D

[@KaiserShounen]

Excellent video as always, Pete. Glad to be on to soak up the clout you took from me >:) But for real tho, Lily is a prime example of who not to be as a critic. If you're correct on a topic, you shouldn't have to blatantly lie or throw away helpful words/definitions because you feel petty and spiteful. That is childish behavior and she needs to get over herself. If she is ever going to make good content instead of having waves of people who dislike her, she needs to cut the bullshit and tell the truth. Mary Sue's suck. Its bad writing. Bad writing bears no gender, sees no race, and possesses no sexuality. And she knows this, which is why she had to lie about it. Big shame.

[@d.j.mulcahy1657]

There’s a reason you don’t hear Aliana Beniko (Lily’s OC) talked about when it comes to compelling characters.

[@periodicpete]

@@d.j.mulcahy1657 Probably the same reason I don't hear her OC talked about at all lol

[@d.j.mulcahy1657]

@@periodicpete She even does that thing in Isekai where the characters contribute to slavery (though perhaps I’ve said too much).

[@DCPTF2]

Never forget Lilly is the person who wrote a story where the main self insert OC goes around a multiverse Committing genocide and beating the crap out of God, because she is in the right and thinks that Atheism is the one true way

[@Kuroyami0Fukaikuro]

Dont forget the Star Wars fic where the MC's mom is an intergalactic slaver and they romanticize that fact

[@CapriciousWriter]

FUCKING WHAT?!!!

[@DCPTF2]

@@CapriciousWriter going to take a lot to track it down these days but it was called something like Tales of the Valkyr or something like that

[@Casual-Yohoho-Enjoyer]

Bro thinks she Thor fr

[@KaiserShounen]

Which is fine to do since its fanfiction and not major works. The issue Lily doesn't understand (or refuses to acknowledge) is that people don't pay tens to hundreds of dollars in theatres to go see someones poorly written self indulgent fanfiction. They want a professional movie made by people who know what they are doing

[@chaoticgoodcreations947]

I think Lily's problem is that the concept of the supposed Mary Sue is exactly what she wants in stories. She wants safe, easily digestable content with no real conflicts that won't challenge either the protagonist or the viewer. And because she believes that her opinion is superior to others she thinks that that is what others should want as well.

[@periodicpete]

I honestly can't tell how many of her examples of good "Mary Sues" are from films she actually bothered to watch, let alone likes. So the fact that she points to characters who do have real conflicts in their journey just makes it all the more confusing.

[@eoghanfeighery7383]

​​​@@periodicpete Somehow I think her saying Hamtaro as her only No. 1 anime of all time (No disrespect to Hamtaro by the by) as well as her "writing tips" also says more about her media tastes and media literacy understanding. And quick question, if a story has no conflict or challenges and the character CAN'T be flawed and do cool things or be challenged by said story, then why stick around?

[@liamdalemon1525]

Heres my take on this situation: sometimes you want to see Batman struggle against the odds, and sometimes you want to see Superman power through everything. Both are enjoyable for different reasons.

[@locosword3985]

Lily: “I’m a writer” Also Lily: *Doesn’t understand basic writing and talks confidently*

[@FlamingoSugar]

Honestly, so many of Lily's videos are just because people in fandom are 'mean' to her. Her most recent video is about writing of sibling relationships because people were criticizing her stories about siblings, saying that they have unhealthy relationships that are emotionally incestuous. It's why she brings up her own works in her videos so often. The video is not coming for a genuine place, it's coming from a place of 'people critiqued my works and I'm going to write a whole video essay to show them not only that I'm right, but that they're part of a systematic problem!'. It's not helped by her holier-than-thou attitude and complete dismissal of anyone bringing up legitimate critiques. Many of her problems are problems she has with fandom, not the works themselves, and boy does it show in her essays.

[@SearedBooks]

That's something I've heard before, that all of the examples used are from her own writing, because she thinks her work is the perfect example for everything. I won't act like I don't like bringing my own writing up, I'm doing it right now, but I also try to make comparisons to things that people actually know. I don't know what her sibling video is really about, but as someone with 11 of them, it's something I play with in my writing. And I try to be critical of my own work, maybe even to my detriment, and I pay attention to every comment, even if they don't sound like they come from a stable mind. When someone has a bad reaction, even if they can't explain why, you can look back at your work and try to understand what was wrong. Sometimes, nothing is wrong at all, they just didn't like it, but sometimes there is a flaw you missed.

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

Plus, she does a LOT of projecting in these videos. She blames everything on everyone else except her, when no one except her has done anything wrong. Not to mention, her twisted views of the world and inherent narcissism make it hard for her to see the actual bigger picture.

[@bluewolf6323]

It's not even if you're mean to her, it's even, if you do something to pass her off, which is a Russian roulette of solving it! She literally likes Spy x Family, and calls Buddy Daddies a cash grab knock off and then some people recommended her Dungeon Meshi because it's some of the things she likes in shows, but since they dared recommend her a show that has her favorite things because she asked, she spoils the Manga and does a whole video on why Dungeon Meshi sucks without even talking some of the characters. She doesn't watch the media she critiques and just searches up spoilers and stuff.

[@cobycoba]

I think the issue is these people miss that sometimes the competence IS the premise. Light is not a mary sue despite all his luck and victories simply because the entire premise of the show is "what happens when the smartest person in the room gets the ability to play god". The competence is not only expected but almost mandatory here.

[@KaiserShounen]

Exactly. And that is absolutely fine. As long as there are still stakes in the story. But Lily just says "Fuck the stakes, they don't matter". Cringe.

[@arosbastion7052]

it also all comes crashing down on him by the end lmao

[@ugan2]

Also note. Light doesn't have it easy. He does have challenges and he does have his flaws. The most obvious being his arrogance. Believe it or not, his rivalry with L kept him steady because he knew that one slip up would mean execution. This was especially shown when L baited him into revealing his general location. Once L was gone, Light's own ego grew. Now, I have my issues with Near, but honestly it's safe to say his God complex finally collapsed on him

[@periodicpete]

The competence is definitely warranted, but he also faces a number of challenges as well. Most notably Misa, who becomes a big liability that allows L to close in on him. He admits she's a liability too, but can't kill her because Ren will kill him if he does. But you're not wrong that there are a number of stories, such as One Punch Man, where the character's victories aren't the focus of the story (or they're not the victories you're rooting for them to accomplish)

[@Grf1556]

It’s made clear in episode 2 that Light isn’t nearly as intelligent as he thinks he is. Light only beat L because he was the only one who knew the rules of the “game” and rigged it in his own favor. Hence why Light loses in the end against Near, Bear figures out the “Rules” of the Death Note and Light soundly loses because of that. Light isn’t a Mary Sue, he just had a LOT of plot armor.

[@Osc473]

13:39 also this scene is also a joke that the actor of Indiana Jones had food poisoning and wanted to end the scene quickly as possible

[@twistedmyth5860]

Yeah, It's a scene that isn't plot important and is obviously played for comedy.

[@comfyghost]

the term "fandom racists" has some serious tomy talarico "gaming racists" vibes. it's so stupid it almost distracted me from her following statement about how theorising about rae's parents was somehow "missing the point" even though rae's parents (at least until the palpatine bullshit) was meant to be a subversion, and a subversion doesn't work if we aren't interested in who her parents are, meaning that theorising about them is the point. forget not knowing what a mary sue is, i don't think she knows what story telling is (like actually, this isn't even just a joke i'm making, i'm genuinely starting to suspect this after everything i've ever seen her say)

[@12Gage541]

Unlike Tommy, I don't like Lilly's Mother is very proud of her.

[@vidmanandrew09]

Yeah… Lily lacks in higher critical thinking and habitually tries to put things into “black or white.” It’s why she hates Steven Universe and repeatedly called Rebecca Sugar a Nazi (not kidding), why she hates Redemption Arcs, and is unable to take _Hazben Hotel_ at face value. (She legitimately things Charlie Morningstar, the _daughter of Lucifer Morningstar,_ is the “self proclaimed” Princess of Hell.)

[@leviticusprime4904]

@@vidmanandrew09I don't even like at show and even I think, that's disingenuous.

[@4anky]

The good that came out of Lilys is I've found so many good smaller youtube channels that shit on her crapy takes, lmaoo

[@ma.2089]

Also, if she (should I even refer to them with their preferred pronouns when they’re also transphobic? Seems a bit unfair) doesn’t like something, it’s a good mark that whatever they dislike is actually good.

[@elizahamilton5599]

@@ma.2089I just call Lily an IT

[@4anky]

Lily victimizes herself. So, if you misgender her, you just reinforce her victim complex. I just don't even bother with it. It's not worth it

[@CertifiedCoolDude]

@@ma.2089I would say to refer to Lily correctly considering you wouldn’t misgender a cis person if you didn’t like them, like I hate Lily but misgendering anyone harms the trans community as a whole imo

[@khaliyahjefferson832]

@@CertifiedCoolDude I lowkey thought she was trans from the moment I heard her voice

[@galaxydacreature]

43:02 did. Did Lily Orchard ACTUALLY just imply Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way is only called a Mary Sue because she has a ridiculous name? Like is that what she's implying or am I just severely misreading this moment? Because if she is, she doesn't know ANYTHING about My Immortal oh my FUCKING god- wether she's a parody or not(which this is even worse if she IS a parody), Ebony Dark'ness is the fucking TEXT BOOK DEFINITION of a Mary Sue in EVERY WAY POSSIBLE- Lily wouldn't be referencing her if she didn't KNOW THIS because that is what Ebony is FAMOUS FOR- does Lily genuinely think she isn't a Mary Sue!?!?!?!?!?! Hello!?!?!?!?!?!?

[@KaiserShounen]

The mary sue is a pathway to many things some consider to be... unnatural

[@alekslic3385]

Say it with me now: " Those that preach the loudest have the most to hide."

[@KaiserShounen]

Facts

[@channel45853]

It's not so binary. Those who say nothing have the most to hide as well, no?

[@jonelrobinson582]

Yep!

[@Nova-rd3hi]

Does Lily even realize that there are characters in DC that can challenge or even demolish Superman physically? Darkseid is basically his Bane.

[@SirPsychonautic]

I will say that villans can be given immense ammounts of plot armor that does detract from the experience. Not nessesaraly a Mary Sue, but plot progression so baffling that you start to wonder if the writers are just trying to pad out the run time. Cant think of any examples off the top of my head, but the kind of encounter where either the vilan breaks the laws of the story and/or their character, or the protagonist makes a braindead decision and the villan ends up getting away because of it.

[@michaeldorsey9231]

“or the protagonist makes a braindead decision and the villan ends up getting away because of it.” Blake and the Faunus militia letting Adam escape at the end of RWBY vol 5 comes to mind.

[@SirPsychonautic]

@@michaeldorsey9231 THIS! Holysh*t that was annoying!

[@krraika1847]

I can definitely agree. You can see this with Kylo Ren in the sequel trilogy, who says about "feeling the pull to the light" in TFA despite himself ordering innocent people to be killed, killing his own father, and goes on to kidnap and interrogate Rey. Not helped where Rey (for some reason) listens to Kylo Ren in TLJ, including the dumb and hypocritical "let the past die, kill it if you have to."

[@KaiserShounen]

I do agree that this is possible. Madara Uchiha (Naruto), Aizen (Bleach), All For One (My hero academia) are examples that come to mind of villains that are pumped full of so much Plot Armor that it harms the stakes of the story. Because some conveniences have to happen in order to beat them instead of the characters finding a way to stop them themselves or seeking some other means actively.

[@watchface6836]

I think an example of a villian with too much plot armor would be Colonel Autum from Fallout 3.

[@LatterDayPup]

Lily is just seething that people don’t like her favorite characters.

[@jonelrobinson582]

Exactly! No one likes Mary Sues!

[@jorgeortega2878]

43:20 45:28 You guys are actually right on the money, just not on the right fanfiction. It's highly likely it was made in regards to her OC in her Star Wars sequel trilogy rewrite where she gives Ray a black "woke socialist sith lord" girlfriend that's she's gotten much more backlash over in regards to being called a Mary Sue. That's probably also her reasoning for what she put in 31:21 in regards to black women I actually highly recommend Manufatura's video "analyzing Lily Orchards morality compass" in which she analyzes two videos that Lily made for the same reason she made this one on Mary Sue's: to defend her OC from people criticizing it.

[@hosespider]

22:46 of course the video was made out of spite, that's lily's motivation to do anything She made a pokemon "retrospective" where she played through each gen until she beat the elite 4, in which she refused to engage with any optional content and skipped through the plot only to then complain about how dumb the evil team's motivations are And how annoying it is to get stopped by other characters who talk to you (for example she completely ignores and dismisses anything N says to you in pokemon black and then calls him a creep for trying to talk to her gardevoir which she hacked in) Some fan recommended her to watch dungeon meshi after she said she liked spy x family and because of that she made a critique on it talking about how annoying all the characters in dungeon meshi are and complaining that the characters aren't taking their main objective seriously enough while showing footage of them talking about how uneasy they are that they can't go any faster, as well as talking about laios' main character flaw as if it was his only character trait and and generally taking things way out of context to make him look bad and when she got called out for being disingenous she remade the video to include spoilers of the manga

[@periodicpete]

That's such a shitty way to behave, especially when talking about content that's been recommended by your own fanbase. And yet, I'm not surprised in the least XD

[@JellyJam1115]

Iirc she only talked about Laios and Marcille as characters and only made a reference to Chilchuck and Senshi(and Izutsumi but she shows up later so I could see why she was ommitted) with a passing comment acknowledging their existence, but not mentioning them further(I think her "dunking on" Studio Trigger was more of the runtime). Which is kind of sad because I was half expecting her to have some kind of segment about how Shuro is basically Kylo Ren or even whilst watching the video that Shuro was right for being the only one actually calling out Laios' bad behavior, but no most of the video is just Laios and it's bland as a critique of the series

[@onesmart229]

41:26 Lily is evil and that still doesn’t mean Mary Sue isn’t mostly used as a buzzword in a culture war. Two of the very characters you mentioned don’t fit that definition but they were labeled as because of nonsense outside of their stories.

[@imgkaizer]

"Hello every hero's journey character ever" did she just insinuate that simon from gurren lagann is a mary sue? This isn't say that they're saying he specifically is, that's just to prove the point that her argument is inherently flawed and is saying those things just to make people she disagrees with sound hypocritical. But if she thinks for over a second that my boy simon is anything but one of the best anime characters of all time she's gonna have some explaining to do

[@localloser7415]

Calling Commander Shepard someone who fights for every single victory and wins just barely wins every time a mary sue its so idiotic

[@relic5752]

Especially since, whether playing Paragon or Renegade, Shepard's actions have consequences that are always thrown in their face in one way or another and the only point where they consistently take a lot of wins diplomatically, is when there is an active invasion of ancient, eldritch organic-based-machines currently forcing every species to contend with extinction.

[@leviticusprime4904]

@@relic5752and also remember it’s an role playing game, in mass effect you can choose to be a stupid idiot that gets everyone killed by the final mission, lily doesn’t understand the concept of a role playing game.

[@jackoconnor5590]

Lily Orchard? What a lunatic.

[@HerrscherPuppet]

Troons typically are, and he’s no exception.

[@jackoconnor5590]

@@HerrscherPuppet Troons?

[@angelorosso4871]

17:07 I think it's also worth noting that when Elle does "Swagger" it's fashion related. like her dramatic success was because she re-heard the witness testimony and realized it made no sense because they were Permed and had permed their hair for years

[@zeogold]

1. 21:59-22:36 Let's add Nico Robin, and Yamato from One Piece, Bijinder from Kikaider 01, Android 18 from Dragonball, any of the female rangers in power rangers/super sentai, Arcee, Windblade, and Elita one from transformers, and Pike, Vex, and Keyleth from legend of Vox Machina to the list of cool female characters that people like. 2. The fact that Lily thinks that Luke is a poorly written character while praising Rey goes to show that Lily was never really a fan of Star Wars. 3. 34:58 Lily really really really hates Eastern animation, did you hear what she said about studio Trigger?

[@KaiserShounen]

That I did

[@ak9k472]

Funny how she hates anime yet writes the shit she goes at the entire medium for doing. Rules for ye and not for me

[@firemaster9293]

Lily doesn't care what you think or what point you're trying to make. I know this because, after her infamous first Dungeon Meshi video where she made her distasteful take on Laios by offending any autistic people who lack social cues, instead of taking responsibility for it, in her second Dungeon Meshi video, she made more ways to bash Laios with more misinformation about his character and use Bojack Horseman of all shows in comparison that has nothing to do with the premise of Dungeon Meshi and didn’t even apologize to those who have symptoms for the autism spectrum by saying she hasn’t met anyone someone like Laios. (Sai has the first video in her Reacting to Lily Orchard's Dungeon Meshi Videos live streaming if you're curious.) To me, I think Lily is a lost cause because nothing will faze her, she will never change her ways even if we keep calling her out, and she will find more ways to blame people to excuse herself.

[@twistedmyth5860]

I, personally have trouble believing that she knows autistic people that aren't either women, or children. And women tend to have the more off putting autism traits more discouraged than men do. And Children aren't adults so their autism wouldn't look like Laios's autism. Combined with her "Never Wrong Attitude" and I think she would assume any autistic person she met that WAS like Laios was just a maladjusted shut in or a creep. Doesn't matter how they actually act/say. She praises Fallon when Fallon is just Laios with magical aptitude and female autism. They are so similar and show how autism affects men and women differently. Also, Lily just has a bias against any male character that isn't an asshole played for comedy. Which Laios isn't an asshole, so she hates him.

[@ma.2089]

@@twistedmyth5860 I refuse to watch her video mostly cuz I heard (like most dunmeshi fans) spoils the story and ending. In a way they’re saying “I don’t like the series, so now YOU cant be allowed to enjoy it blind either!”. But I find it horrible Falin is the “good” autism. The girl has just a bit more social awareness, simply cuz girls like her are forced from a younger age to conform cus of their gender. Falin is only “good” cuz she’s not allowed to do much. Ppl overlook her suffering and difficulties so much. Heck, The girl who was made to suffer so deeply, so of COURSE it would probably be “good” cuz just like Lily things Laios should be treated badly for their autism, Falin is already experiencing “recompense”.

[@twistedmyth5860]

@@ma.2089 I know, it was such shit of Lily to spoil shit. Just because she is fine with spoilers (I am too) doesn't mean that she should spoil others. (Seriously I avoid telling people who want to watch a thing spoilers for a reason.) Also, YEAH. I hate when people take away that Fallin has the "Good Autism" when she just has "Raised woman while Autistic". Lily truly has some incredibly shit takes and her praising Sheldon Cooper, while demonizing Laios is fucking disgusting imo.

[@caimanthechimera679]

Honestly as a person on the Autism spectrum the way Lily sees Laios makes me feel really angry, and the fact that she apparently considers SHELDON COOPER FROM THE BIG BANG THEORY better autism rep than Laios really says a lot about Lily’s, less than friendly view of us autistic folks. Sometimes I remember the fact that she lives in Canada, AKA the same country I live in, and that genuinely scares me I do not wanna meet that woman IRL she seems like a morally-bankrupt lunatic I feel like she’d do something really bad to me and my loved ones FSR.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

At this point, I am certain that Lily is actually a conservative who makes us leftists look bad in those psy ops she calls content.

[@MrSmuuf]

Lily? Bitter and projecting? Surely you jest!

[@jadehakurei]

Holy fuck! This video is actually good! Genuinely though this video came from a higher sub-count channel. May the algorithm look kindly upon you!

[@KaiserShounen]

Thanks a lot, dude. Make sure to share around!

[@Brianprince1000]

Great video as always pete

[@mightyradish9672]

I'd say it's a lack of questions posed to the character, or rather, lack of options to answer. If they're super powerful with no weaknesses every conflict they come across will have the exact same answer. But if they have a weakness, and the story focuses on it enough that failure is a possibility chances are the character needs a bit of ingenuity. Whether asking for friends help, planning in advance, or spur of the moment improvisation, it's always more interesting to wonder "how they'll pull it off" If the character can get everything they want with minimal conflict, then thats bad, because almost all stories are is conflict. So theres no real story, often as a result.

[@periodicpete]

I think this is the first new perspective on the topic that really fascinates me in the past few years. I'll definitely consider this if I ever make another video on the trope in the future.

[@krraika1847]

Yeah, like I've said before in some of Kaiser's videos, Orchard's argument all boils down to "you don't like my character because they're X" when the problems are that "these characters don't work because of Y." It is a double standard which has been used by people all over the political spectrum. Maybe less to do with politics and more to do with "how dare you criticize this character I like." Also, something that both Mary Sue/Gary Stu defenders (e.g. Orchard, Cosmonaut Variety Hour) and many critics (e.g. The Critical Drinker) tend to forget is that Mary Sues are merely one type of bad character writing/storytelling. And like I've mentioned before (and which you partially showed when going over Taken), you can still have a non-Mary Sue character be as bad and favored by the plot as a Mary Sue. This has happened with Bayformer's Optimus Prime (easily killing Megatron--who was offering peace in DotM--after losing an arm, threatening and forcing Grimlock and the Dinobots to join him in AoE, willing to mercilessly kill humans post-DotM), Snyder's Superman (destroying most of Metropolis, killing Zod, the Christ-like imagery in MoS and BvS, people praising him to have saved people in BvS when he looks like its a chore, having people mourn him after his asinine death against Doomsday), and yes, the SW prequels' Anakin Skywalker (able to destroy the Trade Federation ship BY ACCIDENT without shown to have used the Force in TPM, killing women and children TWICE after not doing next-to-nothing about his visions and with no context given in AotC and RotS, being excused of killing women and children in AotC where he didn't even feel the effects of the Dark Side, arguing with and being abrasive/disobedient to Obi-Wan in AotC with no resolution or anything showing how he grew into the hero he was in RotS, having Padme say she loves Anakin AFTER he killed women and children in AotC despite nothing showing what she sees in him--and Padme in RotS even saying "Anakin wouldn't do that!" about killing children even though she knows he had done such in the past, etc.). All of these, especially Anakin (who was said in the OT to have been a good man who was seduced by the Dark Side but the prequels don't reflect that), share the same core problems as Mary Sues/Gary Stus: they do not drive the plot, they do not deal with consequences of their actions, said actions are excused by the plot, they act stupid for the sake of the plot, and much, MUCH more. It's not helped that I have literally seen people excuse all of this (even Anakin killing women and children by adding in "context" they pull out of the ether, as well as those same people saying Anakin faced more hardship than Luke--all of which I've seen being applied to Rey and even Kylo Ren). And that's not going into those same people attacking and belittling others' legitimate criticisms (emphasis on the legitimate part). Anyway, sorry for the long paragraphs, but TL;DR: this stuff is nothing new and the same nonsense Orchard used to defend Rey and Carol Danvers have been used for other poorly-told characters.

[@KaiserShounen]

Couldn't agree more

[@genyakozlov1316]

Until the sequel trilogy I found Anakin to be the only reason to even care about Star Wars, and even after it he remains the best part of it. The original trilogy has literally nothing good going for it. If you're going to analyse bad writing, analyse how Luke has no agency in New Hope, just being carried around by the plot, or how his temptation into the dark side of the Force makes no sense with his motivations and history. He is simply not a compelling character in the way Anakin and Ray are. Star Wars also never had tight writing, which doesn't make it worse as what matters is not the writing itself but how interesting it is and how it speaks to human nature. Everything else is just nerds whining about stuff which never mattered, because things like immersion is something subjective to each member of the audience, and is their concern, not the author's. There is a reason Romans looked down on fiction and only put science to paper. If it's gonna be escapism it should say something about the human condition, otherwise it's just a literal waste of time no matter how well written it is. That being said, it's technically impossible to create art which says nothing, as the interpretation of the message is always up to the audience, no matter what the author intended, you could even say that we create art when we observe the raw material in the form of the original text, and authors always put their worldview into their work subconsciously, so all art is in some way deep, even if that wasn't intended, and in some way political. What am I trying to say with all this? Nothing.

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

27:40 so this was kinda your entire point, but this does emphasize that I guess Lilly’s idea of character might just come down to if the character is a badass that destroys everything, because I don’t see how Rey not killing Ren means that the series took away her character. If anything, Rey never had much character, they didn’t take away from it in this movie. Hell in this movie they tried to actually give her a semi backstory that was honestly forgettable, not take away character, it’s just that she never had much of one and abandoned her conflict.

[@serpentinious7745]

My own concept of what makes a Mary Sue had become much more diluted than I'd realized. Thank you for refocusing my understanding.

[@Mimicrophone]

That point about Lily wanting nothing but cool moments from her Action Figur- I mean, characters. Lily would unironically be the type to say the Bayverse was peak Transformers, if she even Touched it. “No no no no, the robots aren’t allowed to be characters with complex emotions or stories to tell, Optimus should just rip Megatron’s head off in every show, like he did in Dark of the Moon”

[@terribleexampleofacat]

22:39 OSP MENTION

[@helixwither2837]

btw didn't Shepard fail to save a whole ass planet in that same game Lily used a clip of. Mass Effect 3?

[@periodicpete]

Maybe? I don't remember if Earth was destroyed by the Reapers or just really messed up by them

[@willberto6969]

In regards to the drama, she's openly had a kink for the stuff she's being accused of, going as far as making her own self ship comic about it, so I think its safe to say its all true

[@Mr.EintheMorning]

24:59 Nice use of Glados dialogue. Orchard really seems to have no concept of empathy whatsoever.

[@skyslasher2297]

17:21 the musical is better by virtue of having There Right There in the sound track (AKA The Gay or European song)

[@StarlightUmbra]

21:59 - 22:36 the worst part is half the characters you showed during your compilation she hates. like i know she hates most anime even if it fits a lot of her preferences for viewing (ie dungeon meshi), she despises 2b, and her opinion on bell/beauty and the beast is low in general. i think the one character i see in this line up that the would praise is aqua from kingdom hearts because that series is her baby even though she cannot pick up the themes and thinks that the games on the side systems are not relevant to the story.

[@KaiserShounen]

Well we showed plenty of cartoon characters and movie characters as well. So unless Lily wants to be a massive contrarian (again), she will not questions those parts of her list.

[@KaiserShounen]

Also what did she say about 2B?

[@periodicpete]

That's news to me. I had no idea that she disliked that many characters and I'm a little skeptical that she's even aware of that many of them. But the ultimate point is that there are tons of competent female characters people like, disproving the notion that fandoms hate female characters because of misogyny.

[@StarlightUmbra]

@@KaiserShounen she called 2b a "yor forger as a french maid fetish robot" this is in her dungeon meshi video

[@KaiserShounen]

@@StarlightUmbra why am I not surprised

[@lorenzowhois]

33:20 POWER RANGERS TIME FORCE/MIRAI SENTAI TIMERANGER SPOTTED

[@josephercanbrack8393]

38:06 I wasn't expecting Mauler to be referenced, but I'm far from disappointed. I don't think I've seen any other critic thoroughly go over nearly each line of dialogue and explain its problems.

[@strawsberries8206]

Odd connection, but her opinion on Mary Sues might explain her Pokemon Retrospective a little bit and some of the stances she takes. I think she wants to play the games as a Mary Sue, or, more so, she wants her favorite Pokemon to be a Mary Sue. Throughout the "retrospective," she constantly insists upon how overpowered Gardevoir is and even goes so far as to hack it in as her starter, using it in every battle, but anytime she can't just power through a battle, she complains about it being too hard without ever changing her team or her strategy to accomodate; interestingly, she'll also complain about winning battles too easily since it's boring. She wants the type advantages between Pokemon to be HEAVILY reduced from 2x damage when hitting a weakness to 1.25x (less than just hitting with a move of the same type for a 1.5x bonus), and she also doesn't want critical hits to ignore defense bonuses since that invites risk of ruining your setup, and it's my belief she wants these changes so she can stack stat bonuses without any potential for being punished on her glass cannon. It seems she wants every battle to cut it "close" where it looks like she could lose or get KOd on Gardevoir without it being a real possibility. I think @mightyradish9672 put it really well in saying that Mary Sues tend to be boring because they can give about the same answer to every problem without ever exercising ingenuity or accomodating for some kind of weakness of their own, and that's exactly how I think Lily wants to play Pokemon. The character she hated the most throughout the entire 6.5 hour video of hers was N, the rival she lost to so many times she leveled up 7 times, and it was so confusing why she hated him so much until now. The reason she hates him may be as simple as him giving her a challenge that brute forcing with her current setup didn't let her win in one battle or rematch: N consistently disrupted her power fantasy where she can get through every single battle with the exact same pokemon, the exact same strategy, and little to no difficulty, and that's why she spat so much venom towards him, his character, and his story throughout the video. (Note: I'm probably just yapping and making huge leaps, but it's kinda fun to make passing guesses about what her mindset might've been in the making of a video)

[@snintendog]

She wants a total power fantasy. A Redo of healer personally tailored to her.. She is Unironically the Princesss in of Redo of healer.

[@icebirdj5935]

In my opinion, Ken from the barbie movie isn't a marry sue... but can someone explain to me why people think he is?

[@periodicpete]

People think he's a Mary Sue?

[@gregjayonnaise8314]

I’ve seen more complaints about Barbie herself being a Mary Sue (which I disagree with personally ) but not a lot about Ken. Wasn’t he like technically an antagonist (not that he’s evil, but that he opposed Barbie as the protagonist)?

[@MataNui.]

Because I saw her briefly, I do see people call Ahsoka Tano a mary sue. I disagree with them, but they do exist.

[@dagogogoch]

Oh boy this is gonna be fun

[@RenoReborn]

Mary Sues can work in a story that is constructed for them, that's literally what the action genre is, it's a sandbox for actors to say and do cool shit and have everything work out for the hero in the end. Mary Sues become a problem when you want to do literally anything else, they will destroy any story that doesn't explicitly make accommodations for them.

[@a.n.9800]

Counterpoint, I think a mary-sue could also work as a gag character. The universe twists in on itself to accommodate them? That’s part of the joke, and we can laugh as the other characters who must abide by the narrative try to adjust.

[@juicebox7372]

​@@a.n.9800Sounds like a good concept for a horror monster

[@a.n.9800]

@@juicebox7372 Some of my writing friends did this once. It was a horror story to the other characters (including the overarching villain), but it was all presented as a comedy to the reader XD the “mary-sue” in question was a one-off character.

[@creed8712]

@@a.n.9800that’s basically any plot with Bugs Bunny. He is better than everyone else objectively

[@gabrielcancelado2490]

31:16 well... she technically is writing some fanfiction about trauma and reconciliation about siblings on the real world... wich it evidentiates this: To her, is either a melodramatic sludge set in the real world, or power fantasy were cool character do cool things.

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

21:58 I get the point you're making is about the label of Sue, but... 1…Any character that isn't the lead will rarely called a Sue. Especially when they are the love interest of the male lead. Because those characters are their cool girlfriend, and the self-insert lead (even if they’re not a self-insert, the kind of person that weaponize the term “sue”, would prefer if they were) need a cool girlfriend as an accessory. 2…If the character is from a work that’s around 20 years old or older, there is nostalgia bias. They are from a time “before everyone was a Sue”. 3…Characters like Jessica Jones, Daenerys Targaryen and Ahsoka were criticized like hell for being “woke” and “Sues”, they’re just not very prominent anymore. You just missed it. 4…If a character is in a skin-tight outfit, or is directly appealing to the male gaze in any way: They are cool girlfriends and waifus, and therefore escape the label. Seriously, those people’s true complaint with Rey from Star Wars isn’t that she’s a Sue, it’s that she’s not sexy enough. 38:26 Lily doesn't deserve to be singled out for using it as a buzzword because she is far from the first person who has done it, and it's clear she is in part responding to people that do use it as a buzzword.

[@periodicpete]

I'm aware other people have claimed Mary Sue is a buzzword. I acknowledged as much in that timestamp. And I'd say the same things to them. But this video isn't about them. If by "singled out" you mean "responded to", then Yes. Lily's video is the topic of my video, so I'm responding to Lily's specifically, not someone else. Going down the list 1. That supports my point. If people call any female character a Sue just because they're competent, then it wouldn't matter to them if they're side characters. 2. This also supports my point. If someone just hates all female characters, it's not going to matter if they grew up with them or not. The fact that people still respect such characters is honestly more proof that they aren't just misogynists. 3. Citation needed. Jessica Jones was one of the most popular shows on Netflix at the time of its release. And as far as I'm aware, Ahsoka and Denarys were only criticized in their most recent adaptations. Ask any die-hard Clone Wars fan, and most will still speak highly of her in the original series, even if they don't like how she's portrayed today. And that's even more true for Denarys. People hated her in seasons 7 and 8 but that's it. A good majority of GoT fans say she was good pre-S7. And virtually all of them will say she was good Pre-S5. And 4. You're not the arbitrator of why people like which character. A character can be liked for who they are and also happens to be good-looking, can't they? If a person dislikes strong female characters, why is how they look going to matter? Also: "Male Gaze"? When there are characters like 2B, Lara Croft, and ESPECIALLY Bayonetta who're adored by Bisexuals and Lesbians alike? Same with many from Arcane, Cyberpunk, and Final Fantasy (7 in particular) Is it possible, even just the tiniest bit, that people DON'T hate Rey for being competent and female And perhaps that they (shockingly, I know) just don't like her character?

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

@@periodicpete How would you describe the typical person that weaponize the term “Mary Sue”? Also: “And as far as I'm aware, Ahsoka […] were only criticized in their most recent adaptations. Ask any die-hard Clone Wars fan, and most will still speak highly of her in the original series, even if they don't like how she's portrayed today.” Ahsoka was hate in 2008. Seen as the annoying, plucky sidekick. People only speak highly of her today because the writers went out of their way to fix her.

[@KaiserShounen]

​@@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm So that defeats your argument about Ahsoka. By your admission, the majority of people disliked Ahsoka at the start for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not she was a Mary Sue. It has everything to do with how she was written. Maybe it's because I'm not a misogynist, but if I only hated a female character until they were written better, so well written to the point where the finale of The Clone Wars was universally beloved even by people who usually use the term as a buzzword, I would be very bad at hating women lol. Plus, your point about Rey is really dumb because most people who criticize her character almost never comment on her looks. They would say her acting is wooden and her design could use some work, but that's it as far as I'm concerned. If anything, most Mary Sues are incredibly attractive women (Wanda, Korra, Captain Marvel, etc.), and many of the ones that are labeled today are adaptations of established characters made 20+ years ago. So if you're arguing that most people label them this way due to unattractiveness or nostalgia... you're shit out of luck, especially when we're talking about a term that has existed since the 70s.

[@periodicpete]

@@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm Then there you have it! It's been 16 years. And people like her now. In fact, if they liked her because she was made better, that's probably all the more reason the initial dislike was because of her character and not because she was a Sue. "How would you describe the typical person that weaponize the term “Mary Sue”?" I'm not the one arguing it's being weaponized. A lot of people are just using the term wrong.

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

@@periodicpete Yes or no: You did not know that Ahsoka was hated when she was introduced?

[@alexrussell6399]

The reason lily is not talking about the anime is because she's only seen 3 and all other are bad because BOY.

[@wachyfanning]

I think a more accurate definition of the trope (more of an archetype at this point) is a character who is not subject to the laws of cause and effect established either by the text of the real world. That is to say, there is a dissonance between the effort the character must use, and the effectiveness of the desired result. A couple days training gives them more power than the masters of the art. Actions which are supposedly character flaws do not actually impede their progress towards their goal, but often further it. Being a jerk, an idiot, or a fraud, do not deter other characters from adoring and praising them. Some Mary Sues may possess one of these traits and not others, multiple, or even all - the one thing unifying them is that dissonance between cause and effect. Rey, for instance, is a Mary Sue. Within a couple minutes/hours she accomplishes a Jedi mind trick, a technique even masters of the art struggled with. In the span of a few days, she was able to pull a lightsaber to her hand, in contest with a trained force-user - something Luke struggled with after 3 years of training and no other force-user fighting him for it. Perhaps a few weeks later, she is able to lift a number of rocks which are likely greater in weight than the X-Wing Luke would fail to lift. And then, after finally getting substancial time to train, she literally achieves an ability so rare and difficult to accomplish that the seeking of it literally drove the plot of Episode 3. But I disagree with defining the trope as inherently bad or detracting from the text. While dissonance can detract from a text, it is dissonance which drives them. The reveal that Darth Vader was Luke's father, for instance, would not be a twist at all, if there were not such a distance between the described heroism of Anakin and the evident villany of Vader. The archetype of the Mary Sue has been used to great effect. Take American Psycho. Patrick Bateman is a Mary Sue. He openly discusses his lust for violence and murder; he is openly seen carrying blood-soaked sheets and bodies in bags; he is a terrible liar, who by all means should have been caught by the detective; and he literally got into a shootout with the cops during a killing spree. And yet, the film ends, and Patrick Bateman remains free. This works, however, where Rey does not. Because American Psycho is ABOUT this dissonance. It is about the power of the wealthy, how untouchable they are, how tyrannical they may be and suffer no consequence. It is also about the instablity of the psyche, and we frequently question whether or not certain events even happened. Rey does not pull off the trope, because the films have literally nothing to say about it. The dissonance between her actions and their consequences is a result of Disney's strict 'guidelines' of how a "strong female protagonist" must look. They are scared of having her grow stronger over the text, because she must therefore begin weak. They are scared of having her decisions inadvertantly harm people, because then she is made to look like a fool. They must at all costs avoid alienating the female audience member - but in doing so, they infantilize her. However, It is evident in real life that plenty of women have outstanding potential and are continuously held down by patriarchy. It is therefore no wonder why even facile attempts at 'strong female protagonists' resonate with women who have had their potential squashed out of them. The narrative of a woman's discovery of her own existing potential is a powerful one - I only hope that it is told through better means in the future.

[@secondmemelord8859]

There are also 2 other Points in Batemans favour. First is that American Psycho is a horror comedy. Its meant to be darkly humorous how he is able to get away with the things he does. Second is that alot of things happening in the Movie/Book may be just be Batemans Imagination, therefor he is only getting unpunished since he never did anything at all and is just a sad angry man.

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

41:57 okay can we just pay attention to this wack part? Like yeah capitalism did delude feminism by making it be "women should be allowed wear the boot that crushes poor people"

[@jamesdigennaro6705]

I'd add Pyra and Mythra to the list too considering both of their cases of PTSD and DID.

[@tailsspin621]

Oh my god you are angry in this... ...and for good reason. I mean, how can anyone say the things Lilly says with a straight face? I have a burning passion for storytelling, so much so that i would try to become an author if i had anything resembling a single creative idea in my entire body. I live for the story, i would give my life if that would further the art in a meaningful way. To see somebody misrepresent the fundamentals so brazenly makes my blood boil. So yeah, good video.

[@KaiserShounen]

You got that right

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

Her very existence an insult to the Ancient Greek Muses.

[@Ramsey276one]

The music choices are great, and kinda distracted me trying to remember the titles/sources! XD

[@periodicpete]

Thank you! It means a lot. Though, Kaiser picked out a lot of the song choices. Any that you want the name of? Best to ask now while they're still fresh in my mind.

[@Ramsey276one]

@@periodicpete I think I remembered them all XD

[@PedroBenolielBonito]

To be honest, Lara Croft IS kind of a Mary Sue, at least in the original games. She's an aspirational figure - wealthy, educated, athletic, confident, sarcastic, with an impossibly great figure and a cut-glass accent - capable of taking down a T-Rex, whose only weakness is falling from high places or into spikes. A Mary Sue I never see discussed, though, is Sam LaRusso from Cobra Kai. The show frames her as this manic pixie dream girl-next-door, carefully framing every scene she's in so she is shown to be righteous and sensible, when most of the time, she is the instigator, and her main quality is her ability to manipulate men into doing what she wants by shedding crocodile tears and acting the victim. Samantha's only failure in what are now five seasons is losing the Girls' bracket of the All-Valley Karate Championships (and Robby before that, even though she immediately rebounds by getting back together with Miguel) to Tori. Other than that, she is framed as being perfect in every way, even though it is glaringly obvious that she is anything but.

[@Noscopenoproblem]

Character traits don't factor much into Sueness if the setting or universe doesn't bend over or excessively focus on the character in relation to those traits. While Lara is athletic, that athleticism is required for regular gameplay and the player being good enough to match the athletic challenges if anything prevents her from being a Mary Sue. Her wealth and education exist only to facilitate her adventures, not to magically decide how the plot goes without resistance. Her physical attractiveness is more of an audience thing than it is an element the plotlines overbearingly build themselves around. She's not kind of a Mary Sue, she's simply not one at all.

[@siobhannoble8545]

All those same points could be applied to Batman.

[@nightmarehound]

I mean, by saying "it is glaringly obvious that she is anything but" already pretty much makes her sound not a Mary Sue, which is probably why she's not discussed. From the other character's point of view she might be infuriatingly perfect, but if the viewer sees her manipulate and put effort into coming on top (whether she should or not), or its given off in subtext, she's not a Mary Sue, but an a-hole/manipulative character.

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

Half the time things like the stakes not rising or something isn't even a good criticism because it isn't necessarily Doesn't matter if we know ___ will be saved, the point is to see the process and characters

[@Nockgun]

what is a mary sue for me: no one acknoeldges their power as an enemy people either praise them for the sake they exist or hate them for the sake they exist without realizing they could be obliterated master every skill for example: someone who barely even touched a sword is able to only wildly swing it, but cant do complex parries. if its a mary sue they can do remises, riposte, parries and precise swings

[@mckenzie.latham91]

I'm pretty sure the reason Rose from Last jedi only had a cameo in Rise of Skywlaker was cause of the backlash towards the character which involved so many death and rape threats to the actress she closed her twitter because of it. I’m not saying that the sequel trilogy was good writing etc. I am saying that the level of racist and vitriol hate many of the characters got, especially the non white actors and etc was to a level so bad that is documented as such and it definitely affected how and which characters were used and treated in the following movie.

[@javonyounger5107]

To me the issue with Mary Sue is that they trivialize everything the story wants you to believe is important. Dark lord, who has slain dozens of would-be heroes over hundreds of years? Mary Sue beats him in moments. Order of badasses who only accept the best of the best? They try to recruit Mary Sue after knowing her for fifteen minutes. A secret technique that takes masters years to learn? Mary Sue masters it in seconds. Death God, who could potentially have nearly any woman who ever lived? He falls die-hard in love with Mary Sue after a few interactions. Everything loses its status in order to make Mary Sue look good.

[@KaiserShounen]

Correct

[@siobhannoble8545]

You just basically summed up every isekei anime that's come out in the past decade. Except replace she with he.

[@del3496]

Imagine having so many trash takes you still get analyzed and made fun of even after falling off Lily Orchard moment

[@MrDj232]

Even in the comics Carol Danvers doesn't have a character. The best thing she ever did was get put in a coma when Rogue took her powers.

[@onesmart229]

38:08 everyone giving a personal interpretation of what the term means putting different characters in and out the box based it. It’s not a term useful for general discussion. Only used in video essays under a single individuals interpretation at the time.

[@channel45853]

yeah, if a term is so badly used that many can't agree on a definition, then that term should be thrown out

[@x7heDeviLx]

I kno you want the term Mary Sue to mean what it used to or the version of the definition you first learned. But As a species, we have an innate need to express ourselves and on this level, the pace of linguistic change is not only a good thing but a faster pace of linguistic change is essential to evolution.

[@KaiserShounen]

Ok but we need to change words in a way that is useful for us to use. Words can change due to culture but also because of utility. Our definition has utility and most others don't.

[@thea4676]

Tbh woman breaking a man's hand for telling her to smile is the ultimate power fantasy - i get why it was cut from the movie, it doesn't make her look good, but it's at best a misogynistic microagression

[@periodicpete]

I mean... Personally, I would've guessed the ultimate power fantasy would be the man trying to mug or assault her and THEN easily overpowering him and breaking his hand. Because at least that isn't a misuse of force. Also I think you mean "at WORST" it's a misogynistic microaggression. At best it was a guy being friendly and came about the interaction not the best way. That being a possibility is what makes what she did horrible.

[@iLoveQueijo]

Amazing vid, but answering the 29:40 question, eminence in shadows and overlord use mary sues/lack of conflict to generate amazing storys

[@bananaslamma35]

I think the term Mary Sue became meaningless when it started being applied to "any character I don't like" rather than it being used for its intended purpose or even the more 'distilled' form of Mary Sue. In my opinion for a character to qualify as a Mary Sue, that character, at a fundamental level, has to warp the plot around them. The rules don't apply to this character, this character applies to the rules. The setting bends to accomodate their existence. A Mary Sue does not need to be hypercompetent nor does being hypercompetent instantly make you a Mary Sue. Being an extremely good fighter with a great powerset does not by itself make you a Mary Sue. Hell, having context-breakingly powerful abilities that come right the fuck out of nowhere and make you insanely overpowered for your setting does not make you a Mary Sue. What makes Rey a Mary Sue isn't that she's hyperpowerful. So was Anakin. So was Starkiller. It's not that she's hypercompetent. Darth Revan was hypercompetent before her. It's not that she has unique, incredible powers never before seen in the setting, Bastila did it before her. It's not even that she learns things immediately that should take years of training, Luke already showed that's possible. What makes her a Mary Sue? It's that the setting and story are warped around her existence. She is not a person in the setting, she is the center of the universe and it exists around her, it exists only in relation to her, and it is only there to make her look better. Anakin existed to tell a story. The story exists to talk about Rey.

[@periodicpete]

Pretty much I've always gone by the definition that it has to be favoritism that breaks or harms the narrative in some way. But that's mostly because that's how I would describe a story that is "warped" around the favored character in general But well said nonetheless!

[@SearedBooks]

When I started writing, I was worried about my MC actually being a gary stu. He is abnormally competent. He just so happens to be related to powerful people. He is a perfect little experiment by chance, and some times events just fall in his lap. But, is that normal? It feels like it's too perfect, like he's being set up. And the other side of hyper competence is that each time he fails it hits him hard, and no matter how many times he tries to feign humility, deep down he's got an ego that hurts him and others. And then imagine the shock when he finds out that yes, his life was the result of manipulation from before he was even born, and not all, but a lot of the horrible traumatic events that made him stronger both physically and magically, but crippled him mentally and emotionally, were because he was a pawn in someone's game. If I played it completely straight, if it really was just a big coincidence, he'd be boring, another bland gary stu that wins everything because he was just born better. I didn't have everything planned out, but the basis for the story at the start was about how someone born into power and forced into a larger role he never wanted. For every hero that saves the day, you also risk breaking a young person who couldn't handle the pressure that comes from having that much weight up on his shoulders. More specifically, I was thinking about someone like Harry Potter. Let's say he actually had a great home life, and while he thought magic was cool, he was content with staying because of the disconnect between magic and muggle society. But Hagrid puts him in a burlap sack and takes him to Hogwarts anyway because they knew he was special and destined to killed Voldemort.

[@KissatenYoba]

nothing of this matters, probably. Young authors worry too much about useless stuff they don't need to worry about at all, they'll probably write better stories if they just don't worry about appearances. I find it the best practice for myself to just move the character's backstory to present time and make it into the actual story, while keeping the current theme. Backstory is just lore, it doesn't have emotional weight that the actual story is built atop, so it's better to cannibalize backstory's structures because they tend to be thought out.

[@krraika1847]

I can understand where you're coming from, but based on what I've read in your comment, you seem to have an overall good hold on your character. Like Kaiser and Pete mentioned in their other video covering Orchard (on Kaiser's channel), if a character is too competent, then give them something that cannot overcome. Keep in mind, you don't need anything complicated. Sometimes, simplicity is easy. You could write your character like the star student at a high school who doesn't really have any friends. Or look at examples of what you're looking for, e.g. Paul Atreides from Dune (more so from the Sci-Fi adaptation and recent movies since I haven't read the book). In any case, best wishes with your story.

[@SearedBooks]

@@krraika1847 Thank you. And yeah, I get the thing about simple sometimes being best. Not everyone needs to have a backstory at all, and they don't need to have anything complex even if they do have a backstory. On my story, one of the things that consistently gets mentioned as a strong point is my characters, even in short stories that only imply the existence of their past. Sorta funny, but one of the things I hear the most as a point against my web novel is that I don't explain everything all at once. I don't consider it valid really, because they are really just asking for me to exposit at them instead of letting things be explained when it's proper to do so because I don't want to bog down the pacing.

[@channel45853]

Writing is more fluid then most detractors would have you believe, you shouldn't forget to not bog yourself down with the "right way" to write, otherwise you could make something that works formulacially, but maybe you want your story to work in a different way and remember, just because something is a critique doesn't mean it's a critique that is an objective flaw for example, people love to throw around "show don't tell" yet Kojima tells a lot more than it seemed like he was showing in Metal Gear Solid games, and people loved that style

[@titanthelestrandom6614]

I don't pay much mind to the mary sues trope, but I will say my favourite Mary Sue is the character Mary Sue from Youjo Senki. Good light novel will recommend also an anime if your interested in that more then the Light novel. Anyway have a good day everyone

[@conradvallon5661]

Wait what did Kaiser mean about Shirou Emiya being a Mary Sue? He isn't one from my perspective (Have only watched UBW Route)

[@defineanime5549]

Did they even specify which route cause he's only kinda the only protags during the first route

[@KaiserShounen]

Stick around in Pete's channel and you'll find out why

[@Kai_Xero]

W video

[@afanofstuff9123]

7:31 I mean it's just a shit example either way he had to earn everything. As a slave he was forced to fix up droids and technology he made C3PO with a skill he was forced to learn to survive. This also aloud him to understand how a pod racer works and little Ani has watched the race before he knew the track of course he was good at it. Later in the naboo Starfighter am a burst the bubble most of that flying was R2-D2 and the force he didn't know shit all he knew was "spinning is a good trick". After that it was nothing but training up until he was 19 when the WAR STARTED. He earned his right to be powerful and skilled in the few things he enjoyed. Not to mention he's a flawed character like hello order 66 much Anakin/Darth Vader is the most ANTI MARY SUE character you could say lol.

[@darththeo]

I agree with Lily that the Sequel Trilogy started on a good point, Rey had tons of potential to be a good and interesting character ... but then they decided to do nothing with her of value. I was annoyed her "flaws" of being focused on the past and not knowing who she is was so underplayed in the next two movies. Like she never struggled to move forward despite supposedly being stuck in her past. Luke's flaw was always looking forward, what's next. So he gets dejected when things don't move forward or overconfident in his ability to achieve what he wants. When Vader threatens to harm/turn Leia during the fight on the Death Star, he stops trying to reason with him to avoid that possible future. Even in TLJ when he sees the darkness in Ben, his first instinct is "I can't let this future happen" and in doing so makes that future happen. ESB he sees the potential danger to Han and Leia and goes off partially trained into an obvious trap because he sees Han and Leia dying as the only possible outcome if he does nothing. Luke's flaws of being looking towards to the horizon and being reckless play a role in the narrative and what drives his motivations; Rey is always acting counter to hers which isn't necessarily a problem, but when you tell me a character is stuck in their past without any issues of moving forward; you are giving conflicting messages. However, rather than give Rey meaningful struggles she kind of blunders her way through the plot being told everything and her trapped by her past is resolved via a pep talk from Ghost Luke. If she was changed to appease the sexist fans; they chose to push her more into Mary Sue-dom than away which makes no sense. I don't call Rey a Mary Sue because I personally feels she falls short of how I view that term, but there is no denying that Rey's "flaws" play no role in her story. And Captain Marvel in her movie I felt was toned down to attempt to avoid coming across as "Women are emotional" because she literally found out her entire life was a lie. Her allies weren't allies and her enemies were looking for a home for themselves. She found out everything she thought was true wasn't and was like "Okay, whatever." no emotion, no growth, no world shattering realization that she may have been a participant in the deaths of innocent beings. Where was the emoting? The realization of the horrors she was a part of? Instead she plays it off as "Oh well, I am on this side now." I do feel Mary Sue has become more of a buzz term that people throw into "Criticism" than meaning something, I tend to place strict measures on what counts, because traits of Mary Sue are often just traits of a protagonist. Rey doesn't count for me because she actually isn't that overpowered for the world unless you are only comparing to the prior movies and not the universe as a whole, and the world tends not to actually bend around her so much as she is just there and the plot happens.

[@rotomfan63]

It's all been about her fanfcs the whole time, hasn't it?

[@greencomet2011]

Lily doesn't understand a lot of things. She only thinks she does.

[@vidmanandrew09]

She thinks the world works how it does in her sad and twisted little mind. How quick she’ll withdraw from any interacts when she takes off the blinders and sees the world in all its grey glory.

[@roberthewes3148]

Always nice to see Superman love

[@periodicpete]

Only the best love for the best Superman movie Don't @ me

[@plaguedoctor2882]

Loved when you dropped the beloved female character list, truly banger after banger there

[@peregry]

On Kreia in KotOR2, people who dislike her do not dislike her because she's a Sue. Firstly, she's just not a Mary Sue as she fails both definitions you use and even more broad definitions and/due to (Spoiler for a nearly 20 year old game) being she's the main ANTAGONIST of the story. The people who dislike Kreia dislike her because she's author mouth-piece character for one of the writers of KotOR2 and disagree with her explicit deconstructing Star Wars, the Force, and the Jedi. Many also dislike how many people took her deconstruction as truth, ignoring the fact that she's explicitly a villain and (again spoiler for 20 year old game) a Sith Lord who pretty consistently LIED.

[@periodicpete]

Appreciate it Really need to play KotOR at some point. Just wasn't willing to play an RPG that long for a Lily Orcher response video. Would you know any videos or posts of people who didn't like Kreia? Kaiser and I were struggling to even find anyone who Lily was talking about.

[@peregry]

@periodicpete The big take down I remember seeing about her is here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4uThGOQbdGIisksi=ioIO9SKKmUjz6_4v Yeah, it's quite long but KotOR2 actually has a lot of philosophical depth that can be analyized.

[@KaiserShounen]

Thanks for the info dude

[@DittoAPokemon]

The term Mary Sue is often thrust onto skilled female characters who aren’t because of misogyny but like…Carol and Rey aren’t that? They are representatives of hollow corporate “girl power!” And aren’t given meaningful flaws or challenge because a boardroom decides that’s Bad and won’t appeal to the most people (and were wrong). The hand crushing scene is a great example. Narratively it’s an illustration of Carol’s lack of humanity at that point. Why is it set within a form of female centric harassment with no teeth? Because Marvel wanted more female fans and thought simply throwing in that scene would cater to them rather than actually crafting a thoughtful female character. The scene would be way less controversial if they showed actual sexual harassment instead of just a vague “oh you should smile more” comment. Is that a patronizing comment women get often from men? Sure we do, but it’s smacks of corporate executives hearing women complain about being told it, putting no thought into actual violence women face, and throwing it in the movie because showing anything even SLIGHTLY more extreme might threatening their rating.

[@G0ATFAC3]

As someone who genuinely enjoyed both Captain Marvel AND the Star Wars Sequels (yes, all three of them!), it's amazing to see just how wrong Lily is about them, almost to the point of absurdity. The idea she's doing this on purpose holds more weight to me than the idea that she actually thinks this way. I can't understand why someone would come to this conclusion unless they were genuinely hunting for hate clicks. Just a non stop barrage of contrarianism for the sake of contrarianism.

[@onesmart229]

46:15 I thought you agreed it was story issue not a character issue definition now you are saying that it’s a character issue harming the story. You never actually gave a proper reason why captain marvel or Rey fit that mold.

[@stargate4625]

glad im here (:

[@frostproductions248]

Bro, she must’ve been salty as hell when Captain Marvel lost both of her Death Battle episodes

[@zachm5485]

My biggest issue with Lily (besides, you know) is that she talks as if she’s 100% correct in whatever she’s talking about and that the average viewer would both agree with her argument and already believes it. She doesn’t explain why a Mary Sue is a good thing because she decided it is and to her, you already know that

[@Lesseroldertales]

I never thought I'd see a defense of Legally Blonde. I find it gormless in the way that other chick flicks from that era are but it's nice to see someone understands its writing.

[@saltysocks1074]

Wait, people call korra a mary sue?

[@MelralCT-]

Ironically I just looked back to her channel and in her description she said she has no consent for her content to be archived in the wayback.......... And also has a terminal illness of "always being right" Yeah I'm not going to go further down that rabbit hole

[@versus22REALLY]

I’ve been seen this idea a lot if there hot their a sue, even if they constantly get beaten up and shoved in the trashcan

[@B3N_Youtube]

Korsica got mentioned, based

[@KaiserShounen]

Hell yeah

[@starrycloud8311]

I was geeking out at the list of cool female characters, Oh I know her! Oh I know her! NUMBER 5 MENTION! CYBERPUNK MENTION! ARCANE MENT-

[@periodicpete]

@@starrycloud8311 that was originally Kaiser's idea. You can thank him for that. We were gonna put it somewhere in his video but it never got used so we put it here. I'm glad you liked it!

[@avochao]

I think that calling game protagonists (that you control, make decisions for and etc) a Mary Sue is kinda the point? Like ofc they are the protagonist, we play this game to feel important and be a hero so developers want to make it fun for the players. Its the kind of the game you play to be a absolute unit of a human and have fun while still going through hardships, thats the point of the game. Though ofc you can make bad decisions if you want.