M1153, The U.S. Army's New 9mm Jacketed Hollow Point!

[@BuffRANGE]

Macros! flic.kr/s/aHsmUS7pcQ excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@BuffRANGE]

About the use of HPs per an article "The Army’s lawyers determined that the use of hollow points by troops does not violate the Hague Convention of 1899. Army Col. Brian Stehle, who was the head of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, was quoted in a military.com article, “We have a law of war determination that stated that this type of ammunition is usable.” Other “Special Purpose” rounds, including open tip match (OTM) and .45 JHPs have already been used by Special Operations troops for some time."

[@Biketunerfy]

Oh I see so if the state or terrorist organisation was not a signatory of the Geneva convention on causing unnecessary suffering from using hollow points, then they can be used against them. That’s fair enough I have no quarrels with shooting terrorists with hollow points since they are all about causing unnecessary suffering lmao. Go for it ! Have at it USA, They deserve it anyway 👍😉

[@cannonball666]

@@BuffRANGEThe U.S. Army's lawyers not Hague lawyers said the U.S. Army was OK to use it. Alrightly then,I guess that settles it.

[@cannonball666]

So, the US did not ratify this part of the treaty so now they are exploiting it and being the first military to use HPs in combat. This same "loophole" is why Russia and Japan were never brought to trial for war crimes. They never signed the Geneva Convention rules regarding the treatment of civilians and POWs.

[@tnoutdoors9]

Thanks for running this. I have several boxes of M1153 from 2020 as it was a packaged deal with 124 NATO from Miwall. Handgun velocity is disappointing therefore I'm surprised it expanded. Clothing might be a different story. Correct on the HST. At some point the past few years Federal made it a double cannelure round and adjusted the skives. The result is a longer shank for the expanded bullet, which increases penetration. They also reduced the velocity to 990-995 FPS from a 4" barrel, and I'm not a fan of the lower velocity. Their discontinued 147 +P at 1050 FPS was just right for that weight IMO.

[@factsoftheconfederacy7151]

Long time no see

[@BuffRANGE]

Long time no see TN. I hope you are doing well! I didn't know they discontinued the +P variant. I am going to have to hold on to those !

[@Joe_Friday]

@@BuffRANGE That's disappointing that they discontinued it. I wonder why🤔 I ordered it over all the other HST variants.

[@noizychild]

Thanks for pooping up TN!

[@berryreading4809]

I bet the hollowpoint design in +p was causing occasional jams in micro 9's that would cycle too fast, or maybe even bust parts... I'm sure they know that people can't be responsible enough to choose a suitable ammo type for thier individual pistol, so they shelved before dumb people complained or tried to sue them 🤦‍♂️ just my guess. I wonder if the "LE only" contracts are still +p and might become available?🤞

[@AnAZPatriot]

HST's are so beautiful when they bloom.

[@BuffRANGE]

Yes! If you've never seen them, check out Crafted Ballistics or BallisticImpressions on Instagram. They do some cool art with bullets.

[@chrissinclair4442]

@@BuffRANGE I'm just happy to see tnoutdoors9 live performance pieces.

[@BuffRANGE]

@@chrissinclair4442 I miss him.

[@chrissinclair4442]

@@BuffRANGE Rodger that! If I wasn't disabled I would do gel tests in his format. Supprised no one has a dedicated channel like that.

[@steverussell6642]

@@BuffRANGE we all do and shooting the bull was also a good channel

[@jungleno.]

Guys, you've got to remember... Just because the military uses it, it doesn't mean it's the best round. The military takes bids from contractors and often buys from the lowest bidder.

[@BuffRANGE]

But it's Mil-spec!!

[@custink22]

True, but these are basically renamed black talon rounds, which were damn good seld defense rounds.

[@SaltyMaverick]

@@BuffRANGE Simultaneously one of the best phrases used in marketing and in gun control propaganda.

[@mizzoupatriot8814]

The military uses their handguns less than your average civilian shooter anyway...If a soldier has to use his sidearm he is really in a jam.

[@spookypunky]

But in order to become selected for military use, don't they need to meet certain requirements? Im sure a ton of money is spent on R&D to be considered.

[@mcantu197]

It's repackaged 147gr Ranger T. It may have been slightly modified to expand slightly less in order to get more penetration

[@wastool]

Doesn't appear to be modified. If they did they probably made the same changes to the Ranger T line. They may have messed with the powder, but the velocity seems pretty standard. I'm guessing it's the exact same thing just without the nickle plated brass.

[@concealedpocketgary4193]

Looks exactly like my 147gr Winchester Defend.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

@@concealedpocketgary4193 Except it's not a bonded bullet like your 'Train and Defend' is.

[@nadien1958]

previously known as Black Talon. I know, I got them under both names.

[@jacobmarley4907]

I agree. It looks exactly like the 147 gr. Ranger subsonic we used in the PD before the dept. switched to .357 Sig.

[@redpillproductionscanada5563]

Firearms channels on youtube in 2021 = I got 2 bullets hope I don't miss... Great video brother very informative...

[@kentwilliams4152]

I believe that the reason Glock posted higher velocities than the Beretta is that the “Polygonal” rifling of the Glock provides a better gas seal than standard Ballard rifling found in the Beretta.

[@stevenp.sparks2953]

This

[@roryross3878]

The difference between 4 & 5" of pistol barrel is pretty significant, that is pretty surprising to me. Were it to be true why wouldn't lots of competition shooters be using polygonal rifles barrels in their non-glock pistols to get the most out of their powder/save powder? I would expect to be able to see advertising and reviews of polygonal 1911, 2011, CZ, Sig etc. barrels

[@mizzoupatriot8814]

@@roryross3878 I know the 4.6 inch barrel of the Glock 21 is pretty close to the same velocity as a 5 inch 1911.

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

@@realtalk4real243 Polygonal is a faster rifling, that's been known pretty much forever. It probably doesn't make up the entire difference here but it does make some difference.

[@9unslin9er]

Isn't the "Marksman Barrel" on the Gen5 Glocks standard rifling?

[@MrShtbrick]

Either I have been living under a rock, or I woke up in an alternate universe this morning. How I missed hearing about this in 2019 will baffle me for a while.

[@BuffRANGE]

It's been around since 2017, but I'm guessing since it's nothing "new tech" it's flown under the radar.

[@time4anewsystem452]

Don't feel bad bc I also had no clue about this round

[@Toddscomp2]

First look: it looks a lot like my black talon's or my sxt Supremes

[@estebahngold7713]

You too ? When you sleep you some how star gate into another reality . Now its joker Joe .

[@transtubular]

@@Toddscomp2 It is. The Ranger XT (SXT?) I think, was the bullet that they immediately released after the big Talon fiasco. One magazine of the day said that in production they just cut the "talons" out using a drill at the end of the process. Looks like they just went back to the original BTs, without the Black nitride.

[@chrisb9478]

My old dept. carried Win. Ranger 147gr about 9yrs ago. During different ballistic tests hosted by different ammo companies, it often did not mushroom & rarely penetrated auto glass windshields. We saw other performance issues I won’t go into, but we switched to Horn. Crit. Duty 135+P. which blew it away in all tests & real life.

[@chrisb9478]

I think the Army bought 1980’s hollow points...

[@BuffRANGE]

@@chrisb9478 I feel the HST is a better design, and the Critical Duty doesn't do too bad in tests either.

[@427SuperSnake1]

This is the same as Winchester SXT or SXTC which was made for a Canadian Agency probably the Mounties. People think is just rebranded Ranger T but it’s not. The Ranger T has a wider and larger hollow point cavity. I have thousands of rounds of Ranger T, Black Talon and SXT rounds. When you look at them enough you can clearly see the differences. I have the SXTC contract overrun ammo as well.

[@ArchetypeofMan]

This is pretty cool. I've been out of the DOD ammo loop for a minute. Pretty cool to see them going to something other than FMJ

[@Whoshisface86]

Still banned from combat . MPs can carry them on base thats it

[@dthreadjr]

@@Whoshisface86 what about use on their own population?

[@aaaaaaa4821]

@@dthreadjr 🎯🎯🎯

[@jimbob465]

They adopted a flat point fmj also, the HPS are called the "special purpose" load

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

@@Whoshisface86 I'm surprised they haven't started using expanding FMJs. They are technically FMJs, they just happen to expand.

[@ccsniper]

This is winchester q4429. Whenever it comes back in stock buy a few boxes.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

You're spot on. miwallcorp.com/winchester-ammunition-9mm-luger-147-Grain-jacketed-hollow-point-500-rounds-case/ The RA9SXTC that Buffman reviewed is the same load, albeit different brass.

[@KittenMcSnugglet]

Mines the ZQ4429. Any difference with the Z designation?

[@thepatriotsrage661]

@@KittenMcSnugglet 'Z' means re-classified for civilian sale i.e. agency over-run sold off to the public.

[@KittenMcSnugglet]

@@thepatriotsrage661 Awesome! Thank you!

[@jungleno.]

Just because the military uses it doesn't mean it's the best round. There's better 9 mm self defense ammo out there.

[@OldPackMule]

The Black Talon rides again.

[@sigspearthumb2313]

Never went away lol

[@RockinRack]

They put a bad taste in my mouth after shooting a flat screen TV with then. They were fraging like crazy and doing 0 damage to the backer behind the TV. Made me think anyone breaking in to steal my TV would be bullet proof lol. And these were actual old black talons in 45acp. I think the new ranger rounds would probably work better. Looks like they still have a nice amount of lead at the end to keep pushing through.

[@rueridge7597]

@@RockinRack Liar 🤥

[@RockinRack]

@@rueridge7597 I wish

[@chrism4008]

@@RockinRack. 45's dont always have the velocity to open a hollowpoint the way hollowpoints are supposed to work. I think theyd still stop any tv theif though, even with plain ball in a 45, thats sorta the beauty of the 45. Theres also a .45 super, if you havent seen it check it out

[@14goldmedals]

Good work. Your demo really illustrates just how big 100 fps is when talking handgun ammo.

[@BuffRANGE]

Thanks!

[@dredgewalker]

100fps more makes a lot of difference. If you think about a bullet as a race car then that added 100fps counts a lot

[@esotericjay8701]

Perfect range conditions.. Nice and cool.. To cool down what your using.. I love "range" around 32 to 40 degrees..

[@robertharing7031]

I got a box of I think 124 grain +p Winchester I have so many different hollow points that I have never shot one but I do have a couple of 45 acp Black Talons from back in the 90s. I subbed and will watch some of your other stuff thanks for sharing

[@thaddeuswadzinski9806]

that is a copper talon you can tell by the pedals some of the sxts are variations of the ranger talon or the black talon

[@40s9s3]

I was under the impression the military wasn't allowed to use hollow points on account of the Geneva convention

[@alanvoss2325]

I was thinking the same thing

[@Avitaser]

The 'special purpose' must be for use against unconventional forces. Terrorists and special ops. Geneva is for signatories vs. signatories.

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

We never signed it

[@fjb4932]

Old wives tale ...

[@adamd6644]

@@Avitaser ahh so there planning to use it against the American people

[@sfen4836]

Other than lack of black lacquer those new rounds end up looking liking the forbidden BLACK TALON round. 🤔

[@BuffRANGE]

Yep, I'm going to guess this is very easily a derivative of the original Black Talon. There's been the Ranger T, Ranger Bonded, PDX1, SXT, Train and Defend. All with similar bullet shape and performance.

[@A_FEMALE_MAN]

Wait I thought the military couldn’t use hollow points because of the Geneva convention?

[@tedhodge4830]

It's actually the Hague Convention.

[@WaterZer0]

The ICC can't charge any US troops for breaking international conventions anyway. Not saying I agree or disagree with that, but that's reality.

[@bigmike9128]

The us never actually signed the hague convention.

[@tedhodge4830]

@Ben Woodcock As opposed to cluster bombs? Or mortars? Or explosive artillery shells? Or naval batteries? Or cruise missiles? Or how about "Hellfire missiles" from unmanned drones?

[@TheDkb427]

I guess it's like the mk262. They just call it a fmj. Lol

[@dylanrutan100]

I’ve fired about 300 rounds of the M1152 which is loaded at the same max chamber pressure of the M1153. Definitely some pretty ass kickin velocities from a 115gr flat nose FMJ. Significantly sharper recoil impulse compared to a 115gr 9mm Luger load. If M1152 was sold under SAAMI specs as opposed to NATO specs (which don’t actually have a max chamber pressure) it would have to be labeled 9mm+p+. Although M1152 is advertised as a training load, it’s a pretty significant improvement over the 124 grain M882 ball, which was loaded to a max pressure of 36,500 psi.

[@nicholasnissen1547]

Oh for sure +10%to +15% with those rockets. Lol I keep a mag loaded in the scorpion with those flat nose pills.

[@paulscountry456]

7 inch barrel sounds great,plus p plus nine would get you over 500 ft lbs very close to 357 sig.

[@garyK.45ACP]

Thanks for the testing. I think for now I will stick with my 150 gr. HST Micro loads.

[@BuffRANGE]

Right on. I need to test those some day!

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@BuffRANGE Check these videos from "Shootingthebull.410" . He is no longer posting content, I think he had health issues, but a great series and specifically the test on the 150gr. Micro load. He also did a series on the .380 and started one on .45 ACP. I use heavy HST loads in all my carry guns except .38 Special, where I use the Buffalo Bore +P lead HP-SWC load. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX2pd6R-h5tliqc kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3Kad4egorGch7M

[@Mrgunsngear]

thanks

[@BuffRANGE]

Thanks for stopping by Mike!

[@sergioarmas6689]

Ranger T-series 147 grain and HST are one of the best self defense ammunition.

[@stevenp.sparks2953]

Just an armchair quarterback of sorts here, and a Ranger-T diehard, but I strongly feel that the sooner all ammo makers figure out that 115gr-125gr is the sweet-spot for both 9 and 357Sig, the faster bad guys will be hitting the pavement. JMHO of course, and Thanks for the vids!! Sparks in Daytona

[@thatoneguy454c]

Lol that is for sure a Ranger T with a fancy name. The new talon/ranger T design with the rubber insert actually works really well. Cant wait for them to give us a new Ranger T that actually works as advertised. I love winchester but those projectiles are just not reliable when it come to expansion through cloth.

[@broznkyra4853]

Seems to be standard Winchester Ranger brand hollow point...same as civilian self defense and many LEO applications...good stuff...Ranger is simply the old Black Talon without the black oxide coating...

[@BuffRANGE]

Pretty much!

[@justinriley8651]

sometimes they lower the velocity for the hollowpoint. not just for suppressors. believe it or not they don't always preform the best at top velocity.

[@rustyyates421]

The hst has performed in many other test brilliantly with averages of 15 inches of penetration and full expansion and so has the winchester ranger.

[@JF-xq6fr]

I find Beretta 92 series pistols chronograph slowly as well, and Glocks with their polygonal barrels shoot 'faster' on avg, even with a shorter barrel length. Not to nitpick, but having the chronograph level will make for better accuracy and uniform results.

[@BuffRANGE]

The "levelness" of the chrono should be spot on. The landscape may be playing optic illusions, but the tripod has 2 bubble levels, and the bench is level. May be a few degrees off, but not anything I feel would impact our results in a wide margin :D

[@kennethpowers8995]

I’m glad they finally see the light and approve JHPs for active combat use. Hell SOCOM attorneys successfully pleaded that 7.62x51 SmKs and a specific .45 ACP JHP were not designed to cause increased suffering back in the early 1990’s and on base MPs have been carrying JHP in their sidearms since mid 2010. Not to mention we never signed article IV anyway lol.

[@toomanyaccounts]

has more to do with fmj always works. hollow points you have to test each gun since a number of guns will not like a certain brand of hollowpoint.

[@tylermitch7297]

@@toomanyaccounts no

[@RicArmstrong]

The Geneva convention banned hollow point in combat.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@RicArmstrong the US never signed that part. also not Geneva convention it was the Hague convention.

[@joshrandall3632]

@@toomanyaccounts ∆∆∆

[@tomsrandomness]

i used to be able to get rhe ranger its fantastic. i liked train and defend which i was confodent was alighter version of the same design. it didnt expand like a plus p

[@robbabcock_]

Awesome! I've been curious about this so, thanks.

[@jessecopeland9728]

Not that it matters much now but it would have been nice to see Winchester ranger t’s shot side by side with these mil 9mm. None the less informative and interesting. Man those HST’s look purrrty!

[@bobsmoot2392]

Coroner friend recommended Win 127+p+. Same as this, but lighter/faster. He does autopsies in shooting investigations. Said this load "really tears stuff up". Great defense.

[@mybananasareout]

That’s what I run. As a sheriff’s deputy I had to dispatch a large mule deer that had been struck by a vehicle and was wandering alongside the highway. Dropped like a stone from a heart shot at 8-10 yards and the bullet was a lump under the hide on the opposite side .

[@nelsonr1467]

Winchester ranger is dookie. I've never seen that round expand on KZbin.

[@mybananasareout]

@@nelsonr1467 Cool story bro....

[@boostimalaka1]

@@mybananasareout My department switched from the Federal Hydrashok 9mm +P+ 124 grain to the Winchester 124 grain SXT +P load. I had to dispatch an injured whitetail deer. The bullet was on the opposite side, almost cut my hand from the razor sharp talon poking out. The reason we didn’t go with the 127 grain +P+ was because we used the 124 Grain FMJ ammunition for training.

[@svtkilr]

Nope HST 124Gr Gold Dot 124g +P and Rangers 147 +P for the WIN!!!! And I’ll throw in some Hornady 135gr critical duty and Win Hydroshock 115gr for the budget ammo

[@stonerman15]

Now that’s a cool looking round. Glad to see ammo prices are coming back down.

[@concernedpatriot.2221]

That’s the Winchester ranger T bullet. I was issued the Winchester ranger T series in 127 gr +P+ bullet from my police dept. it’s the most devastating round I have ever seen. And that analysis is not only from testing but from attending numerous autopsies.

[@victorkeller9495]

Winchester is seriously underrated. Top brass & primers. Excellent defense round.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

Yeah. I know of at least 2 civilian SD shootings in my country where the perps were hit with 127gr+P+ T Series out of a G19 and Ruger P95 respectively. I don't think a single perp survived after being shot CM. The 124gr+P Speer Gold Dot and it's Ranger T cousin are both VERY good 9x19 loadings.

[@winn305]

Excellent round

[@RockinRack]

@Ethan Mac don't forget the good old gold dot!

[@johnthompson965]

Did Winchester ever make .357 magnum or a .44 special or .45 Colt in this? Even as a reloading component? Cause if they did/had? That would likely be a revolver enthusiasts go-to, self defense round.

[@kyleam288]

I had some winchester white box 147g hollow points that were identical to these. Same cut design and eveything

[@mhsandifer]

looks an awful lot like the evil black talons

[@johndaugherty4127]

You da man. Thanks Matt.

[@Halal_Dan]

Interesting test!

[@mossydog34]

The beretta has a chrome lined barrel. The glock depending on the generation has polygonal rifling. There's always gonna be a difference in velocity.

[@BuffRANGE]

I didn't know about the chrome lining. It's still consistently slower than other guns with very similar barrel lengths. I need to contact Beretta and ask them if there's a reason for this :D

[@mossydog34]

@@BuffRANGE yeah just like an AR15 chrome lined vs nitride. The nitride barrel usually gives you a velocity boost.

[@tid418]

@@mossydog34 Glock barrels are also nitrided (Tenifer on older models, while newer ones use an in house version that is supposed to be about the same).

[@veiledallegory]

Yeah Winchester can say what they want, this just looks like Ranger to me which is the old black talon renamed and color changed!

[@slimjim7411]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ranger-T's have bonded jackets black talons did not. Also Ranger-T's have a different sized and shaped opening to allow for more reliable expansion. It's just a black talon made better. Minus the jacket coming off in the perp and annoying doctors and coroners who were afraid it would prick their glove and give them aids.

[@jamescampbell4334]

Yeah, it's another iteration of the Black Talon design. The big joke when the SXT came out was that it stood for "Same Xact Thing".

[@cesarsaavedra3095]

This is my preferred self defense load. Ranger T 147. Call it whatever you want.

[@keithwhisman]

The expansion on the new rounds look like the old Black Talon rounds after expansion. I wonder if these are the same rounds as the old Black Talon?

[@BuffRANGE]

Pretty much a Black Talon, Ranger T, Etc :D

[@thelastjohnwayne]

The expansion of quality hollow points is amazing

[@wastool]

Looks like the new cartridge is a 147 grain Ranger T. Just in a brass case instead of nickle plated.

[@concealedpocketgary4193]

I have the 147gr Winchester Defend. And it's identical.

[@MrSmith-zy2bp]

Beretta M9A3, an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

[@BuffRANGE]

It truly is a fine piece. It has the perfect balance of weight to let you it's there, but not over bearing. Out of the box the trigger was very nice!

[@HDBujutsu1775]

Lol! More like a POS.

[@donaldmartin4980]

State Department issues the Glock 19, lol.

[@HDBujutsu1775]

@@donaldmartin4980 they did when I was contracting with them. The G19 is actually a great little pistol.

[@donaldmartin4980]

@@HDBujutsu1775 I carried one in Kabul and Baghdad, I was quite happy with mine as well. We had old beat up Berettas when I worked in Kuwait, Army hand me downs no doubt.

[@tackytrooper]

I can only assume they went with the heavy bullets for subsonic use with silencers. Considering lighter rounds usually expand better that's the only reason I can think of they didn't pick a 115g or 124g loading.

[@omardevonlittle3817]

penetration > expansion for MOST military applications

[@applepie1911e]

147gr has more penetration and is a little less loud among other things. Light and heavy both have pros and cons

[@rickm4295]

The HST's are still the best , lol. Its cool the military is using better ammo in their pistols.

[@vladimirlenin5660]

Better???

[@vladimirlenin5660]

@christian murphy Not when it comes to that piss poor penetration, and that's just with GELATINE, not even counting, muscle, and bone.

[@marcusmaddenov2451]

These rounds are intended for suppressed use.

[@WillF1980]

False

[@joseppi4435]

they're +p so no however they'll probably decide not to because hollow points are ban for international war but this isn't the first time we've ignored those laws

[@moparjr89]

@@joseppi4435 technically they are but only against another country that signed the agreement and the us never signed it so its not technically bound to follow it

[@whatsmolly5741]

Generally for 9mm if you're using 147 grain projectiles it is meant to be subsonic and the velocity here supports this. I carry 147g xtp because it is subsonic and I do use it with a suppressor but that wasn't really the intention behind the load. It was just meant to be a little quiter. That being said I load to 1050 out of a 4.2" barrel and I still wouldn't consider that as +P so at 960 it's a stretch to label it +P when it's only putting out 300 foot pounds of energy.

[@akompsupport]

Great review!

[@mtnbound2764]

they really should do one of these in 124 grain, with velocity between the 1153 and 1152.

[@TheWickedclownz123]

Any of the pdx1 line is a great round. 124 standard pressure or plus p

[@Juan_Doooh]

Good video, thanks for the info.

[@BuffRANGE]

No problem!

[@chrisk7984]

Can't believe you didn't destroy your "little block" on the first shot with the pistol. Looked like the barrel was very close to hitting part of it. Good vid.

[@Darkmattersfrank]

I just found your channel as a result of looking for information on “Winchester +p+” in my search bar. Great work, I am now a subscriber.

[@BuffRANGE]

Awesome, thank you!

[@otetechie]

I see the west side of the state got some snow today too.

[@vieuxacadian9455]

Looks similar to winchester ranger and even a little like the notorious black talons .

[@finnanutyo1153]

I heard they can rip through ligaments and put someone in a bad predicament.

[@riversidetexasfirearmrevie2555]

They look nothing like the black talons and the only thing in common with the Winchester ranger it has is the red color but shape wise they look completely different

[@SuspiciousGanymede]

Hey Matt, what about testing the m1152 FMJ? You should be able to get some from Winchester, I can find some locally but it's pricey! $70/100 but it's 1325fps stated.

[@BuffRANGE]

I've been trying to get some. Just haven't looked hard enough. It's on the to-do list.

[@96Blademaster]

30 degrees?? Thats cute. It was 7 degrees here in AK when my buddy and I went out today!

[@BuffRANGE]

You got me there :D

[@backinthehole]

I know the shape of that expanded bullet! These are the BlackTalon bullet design that Winchester is re-releasing with new packaging and rebranded!!! Sweet! Wonder when they'll bring it back out for rifle calibers?!

[@Avitaser]

So...Ranger T +P (ish). That said, excellent round. I know the .40's work very, very well for my agency.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

In what weight? 165gr? The 165gr Ranger T/HST and Speer Gold Dot are all phenomenal loadings. Mid weight, high velocity works. Same is true for the 124gr +P in 9x19.

[@Avitaser]

@@thepatriotsrage661 We were using the 180's.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

@@Avitaser As of more or less when Leo? The design has changed in the 10 years.

[@Avitaser]

@@thepatriotsrage661 We made the switch from 9's and some very ineffective ammo to .40's using at the time Black Talons, which got a makeover as the Ranger and then Ranger T. That was in the 90's up until I retired in '09. Not sure about now. All I remember is we were shooting the sh*t out of people and they were still in the fight and when we switched, it was night and day. 1 or 2 shots and they were ME cases. Massive difference in morale too. Officers really want to trust that last resort.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

@@Avitaser Ah yes, the good old nickel cased 180gr Black Talon SXT, which became the Ranger SXT and eventually the T Series (around 4 generations of T Series at least). I'm guessing the ineffective 9x19 load was likely an early 147gr JHP? I still have some Black Talon SXT's, Ranger SXT's and newer Ranger T's in 9x19, .40 in my safe. Greets from South Africa.

[@broznkyra4853]

Looks like Ranger...which is Black Talon without the black oxide coating.. good stuff!!!

[@BuffRANGE]

Yep pretty much an evolution of the Black Talon design, sans the coating.

[@ckoritko]

Impressive.

[@rileyneufeld7001]

Looks very similar to the SXT/Black talon/ Ranger T series of bullets from Winchester's past and present lineup. I would like to see some heavy clothing shots with these as the design of this bullet design is very prone to clogging from heavy clothing. Winchester could've easily remedied this by using an approach hornady took and adding an elastomer plug into the hollow cavity of the rounds.

[@michaeledlin9995]

Do some 147xtp in gel. Great video.

[@Mr.NorthSacra916Xfour]

Being in the military according to NATO laws I’ve always thought hollow point ammunition was banned and forbidden to use also according to the Geneva convention and laws of warfare?

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@paulwitmer4611]

Okay I thought the Geneva convention had an agreement that militaries wouldn't use expanding bullets such as dumb dumb or hollow point bullets or anything along that line in war time . Did this change?

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@BuffRANGE can people not read the comments before they post?

[@BuffRANGE]

@@toomanyaccounts Pretty much no :D

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@BuffRANGE tell me do you often run into people who think that since the korean war it is illegal for the US military to shoot people using a .50 BMG. same sort of FUDD logic that makes people think it is illegal for the US military to use hp rounds.

[@mikewerden4056]

That HST looks like it does a great job. Plenty of penetration and great expansion. Think I'll stick with them.

[@BuffRANGE]

You are definitely spot on :D

[@scottshearin3966]

its black talon, just not black any more.

[@clarkrichards1907]

Well COKE isn't going to like that at all.

[@snotcycle]

black talons matter

[@MF-Rell]

@@clarkrichards1907 I'm pretty sure those were white people who said that right?

[@Mockturtlesoup1]

Meh. They should have stuck with the hot 124gr stuff and just switched to a HP projectile. I remember a decade or two ago(god, I can't believe i just said that) overhearing a couple of older guys at the range who were hanging around with us after it closed, and they were making every argument in the book regarding why .45/the 1911 was the shit, and 9mm was for little girls and "limp-wristed fa-" um...I'm not going to repeat it here. You get the idea. Anyways, since I had investigated this stuff myself a long time ago, I invited myself into there their discussion with the old, "actually..." and proceeded to point out that 9mm NATO, even out of a 4" glock 19, or the 3.9" M18(which of course didn't exist yet back then), was considerably more powerful(in terms of energy) than the standard m1911 230gr ball ammo out of a 5" 1911. I didn't recall the numbers at the time, as I think this was before smart phones, but for those of you who are curious, military 230gr .45 ball from the 1911 produces a velocity of about 835fps, which generates 356ft.lbs of energy. 124gr 9mm NATO out of the 3.9" M18(Sig p320) on the other hands, gives velocities between 1200 and 1250fps(depending on the source), which equates to energies of 396 to 430 ft.lbs. (And before anyone mentions it, yes, of course there are hotter/more powerful loadings in .45ACP. I'm just speaking about the ammo the military uses/used.)

[@troy9477]

Glad to see the military is finally upgrading. Maybr not the best on the market, but quite good and much better than ball. As i understand it, insurgents and other fighters are not entitled to the protections of the Hague Accords because they are not uniformed, re ognizable combatants of a declared belligerent nation. Which makes sense.

[@seancssu]

“We use hollow points for the poors” 💀 😂

[@M.H.D.actual]

Just curious if you were going to test the m1152 to check velocities (supposedly around 1300 from service handguns) and if maybe the flat nose makes any difference either. I've picked up some from SGammo and they are out there in 100 round packs.

[@BuffRANGE]

I want to. I'll get some!

[@M.H.D.actual]

@@BuffRANGE you da best ❤️ didn't silver Bear or Brown Bear have some crazy velocities too? I wish I could find some

[@joshuamoore24_7]

Thanks for the Michigan weather report!🙂

[@KeweenawPatriot]

I still have 5 foot banks in front of my house and around 3 feet in the yard where I live in Michigan..... I live in the snow belt in the U.P. lol

[@buddybbuddyb3687]

​@@KeweenawPatriot I can appreciate what your step'n in. This has been a cold as usual winter here too, VT

[@tumultuoustenets1228]

I thought expanding projectiles were against the Geneva or Hague Convention for military use?

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@rre9121]

Isn't expanding ammo not allowed for military purposes or did we not sign that part of the treaty?

[@johnandrewserranogarcia7223]

The United States is one of few major powers that did not agree to IV-3 of the Hague Convention of 1899, and thus is able to use any type kind of ammunition in warfare, but the United States ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23, which says "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering", similar to IV-3 of the first Convention. For years the United States military respected this Convention and refrained from the use of expanding ammunition. Basically we never agreed to never use hollow points but we did agree to not use .22lr or birdshot on our enemies.

[@rre9121]

@@johnandrewserranogarcia7223 eh, works for me.

[@AlexKS1992]

@@johnandrewserranogarcia7223 I never knew that and I learned something.

[@wisewhiterabbit]

It's meant for state side security, fbi, nsa, atf (add all federal and military firearms-carrying units)

[@mattburns545]

@@johnandrewserranogarcia7223 this came up in county in ‘08 when our DM’s were issued match ammo that had a hollow tip, it was eventually given a pass because it was deemed non expansive and for accuracy purposes only, but expanding ammunition was not authorized for use.

[@josephpacchetti5997]

Interesting test, 9mm Parabellum +P Is 38,500 PSI, So not too much of a difference in Pressure, Thanks for posting. 👍

[@charlesbukowski9836]

Looks like the army wants to put us 'peasants' down faster when 'it' happens..

[@k.o.sofficial327]

Naw shop tools, chemistry will keep us in the fight

[@tid418]

@@k.o.sofficial327 They would not be using handguns. They'd be using M16s, and those have bullets that break apart and tumble upon impact and cause horrendous damage compared to what a pop gun like any handgun will do.

[@samhicks7568]

Very good video, thanks.

[@BuffRANGE]

Thank you too!

[@steby123]

I thought I had seen where JHP rounds could not be used by our military due to a treaty on more mutilating rounds?

[@Redchew10]

You’re thinking of the Geneva convention, which to my knowledge the US didn’t sign

[@deletdis6173]

@@Redchew10 *Hague Convention

[@mattburns545]

This is correct, in my experience, this came up when our DM’s were issued a hollow tip round that was designed for accuracy, but not expansion. It raised a few eyebrows, but the top brass deemed it non expansive so it was given a pass.

[@estebahngold7713]

It close , close , real close combat ! I mean pissing range , what do you want ? Base ball bat ?

[@clintcannon1902]

M9 bayonet?

[@79obrien]

I thought expanding ammo was against the Geneva Convention

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@jocarr1791]

The engineers got a little carried away designing that block.

[@billyfreeman5803]

Your scorpion got about as much extra velocity over the Beretta as you'd expect for it's barrel length. However, both velocities seemed pretty low in my opinion. I know that it is 147 grain, but it's pressure is supposed to exceed the highest +p rating which would make this a +p+. I have the M1152 115 grain flat nose and they have noticably more recoil than my 124 grain +p critical duty carry ammo. Don't have a chrono to test with though.

[@BuffRANGE]

Maybe the pressure was overstated? Or they dialed it back? I would agree that these are not +P pressure

[@whatsmolly5741]

@@BuffRANGE i loaded some very spicy greentips with ramshot tac but still within ramshot load data and i specifically asked ramshot if it was still the current max for 5.56 and they said it was but I saw several people posting data putting the load at like 65-70k psi even though the brass looked perfectly normal without the slightest indication of over pressure

[@Knife_Collector]

Looks like the same round as the contract over run that is on the market, and is the same as the PDX1 bullet.

[@NigelThornbery]

No it’s the Winchester Ranger T. Completely different.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

Close but not quite. This bullet isn't bonded. Think back to the Ranger SXT, this is a similar bullet tweaked somewhat. Overall the SXT design is featured here, not the T Series.

[@NigelThornbery]

@@thepatriotsrage661 the winchester ranger t 147 Gr brown box and SXT 147 Gr use the same projectile. The brown and black box 124 gr uses a different projectile.

[@thepatriotsrage661]

@@NigelThornbery Not necessarily. There were about 2-3 generation of Ranger SXT, which then transitioned into the Ranger T (147gr loading) but kept the SXT designation but the product code changed from RA9SXT to RA9T. That specific load used the older Ranger SXT 147gr bullet, but without the lubalox coating i.e. it was copper in colour. This was still when the beige boxes were used for the Ranger loadings. I still have some in my safe. The Ranger T in 147gr loadings has had a major design upgrade in the 2000's to improve expansion by tweaking the bullet to expand earlier rather than later as was the case with the SXT bullet. It looks to me that the U.S Army has gone back to the older SXT bullet because of the later expansion (meaning it'll penetrate deeper). As for the 124gr T series loading, this only came out much later in response to an RFP from the NYPD for a 124gr +P load to duplicate or improve on their 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot issue load. Winchester lost the contract to Speer, but released the 124gr +P T series and later the Ranger Bonded to the market anyway. This was around 2004.

[@unicornheartsbunnyfarts3989]

It's funny maybe I wasn't paying attention close enough. The ammo pictured in the video looked like hollow points and Maybe those were the HST's, because if I'm right I thought I recalled Geneva convention requiring "Ball" ammo and prohibiting "Hollow point".

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@tid418]

@@BuffRANGE You know, when I read this bit about JHPs for military, I had the same thought as all these commenters, so what I did was... get this... to read the comments to see if it was addressed. It was addressed, about 100 times. Maybe more. Why do people post a question when the answer is probably there dozens of times if they would just read a bit?

[@BuffRANGE]

@@tid418 Hehe I'm not sure why. I even pinned the response :D

[@UnforgivingDemon]

How do I send a box of ammo to test? I’m thinking of sending a box of .223 62 gr Gold Dot for chronograph and gel testing.

[@Marcus2750-u1t]

Look in description and hit him up on Instagram and he will tell you where to send em

[@mblake0420]

One of the best loads on the market. The factory load gets 2750 fps 16 inch barrel, 1.5moa and penetration is 16 inches expansion .5 inch. I load them to 3100fps.

[@BuffRANGE]

I have email under my "contact", or IG or Facebook. I would need more than a box to make it happen.

[@UnforgivingDemon]

@@BuffRANGE Best I can do is one box at this time.

[@BuffRANGE]

@@UnforgivingDemon Do you know of any online vendors who stock it? even at 2021 prices?

[@lutherpayne9957]

So, ok....Since when did the Hague IV accords allow hollow point/ expanding ammunition?

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@lutherpayne9957]

@@BuffRANGE thank you. I was in the Army before the 90's so I wasn't aware of the change. Thanks again for the knowledge.

[@BuffRANGE]

@@lutherpayne9957 Yep this seems to have been a recent change :D Have a good one!

[@JoshuaHowley]

Yay! Right convention AND article!

[@beeamerica5024]

I would love to find some hollow points in any grain

[@grndzro777]

h'''''ttps://www.luckygunner.c''''om/9mm-147-grain-jhp-federal-9ms-50-rounds

[@quickchicken506]

Has something changed in the last few years? When I was in, Expanding rounds were illegal under the geneva convention.

[@BuffRANGE]

excerpt from here: sofrep.com/gear/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo/ The U.S. ratified the first three articles of the 1899 Hague Convention but never signed Article IV. Additionally, Article IV, Section 3 states that the prohibition on the use of hollow points applies only in a conflict between two signatories. Even if the U.S.A. signed Article IV, the provisions wouldn’t apply to the United States unless fighting another signatory state. A grey area of international law has always been the treatment of irregular fighters. The Great Powers did not appreciate participation by non-nation state actors in their conflicts. At the 1899 Hague Conference, the Martens Clause determined that non-uniformed insurgents were unlawful combatants subject to execution on capture. This means that according to Hague, the laws of warfare do not apply to guerrillas. pirates and terrorists. SOCOM has used this to their advantage. In the 90’s, U.S. Special Operations Command lawyers successfully argued that the Sierra 7.62 Matchking hollow point bullets and the Winchester .45 caliber 230 grain Jacked Hollow point were not designed to caused unnecessary suffering and these rounds were then fielded in combat.

[@quickchicken506]

@@BuffRANGE Do you know when that changed? I was in from 78 to 90 and we were not allowed to use them at all and I was 18b.

[@tid418]

@@quickchicken506 It never changed. It was never illegal for Americans to use expanding ammo. Your superiors ordered you to use what they ordered you to use, but it wasn't because of international law. It never applied to us.

[@quickchicken506]

@@tid418 Look up "treaties" Expanding ammo IS banned.

[@quickchicken506]

@@tid418 Look up "Hague"

[@calholli]

I wish someone like you would look into the "dagny dagger" -- its a 'cody wilson" type fellow that says he has invented a 9mm round that is armor piercing. He shows the design in a few of his videos. He also shows it shooting body armor through a chrono from a pistol--. and its much faster than normal. He claims thtat it is 'legal" somehow-- If you would look up his channel and somehow get your hands on those rounds for testing, that would be awesome.

[@BuffRANGE]

I am in talks with them for testing when it becomes commercially viable.

[@calholli]

@@BuffRANGE Nice. You're the first person that I mentioned it to who actual had heard about them before.

[@BuffRANGE]

@@calholli Yep I saw it when it first came out and my gears and light bulb went off!

[@GunFunZS]

@@calholli I got to be honest with you. I think the guy who is on that project is a little bit pig headed. There are substantially easier ways to achieve what he's doing, but I think he's ignoring them because they are older simpler tech. just choose any of the harder materials that are lighter and not on the statutory listed prohibited core material list. Cast a roughly conical bullet from them or swage it, fire at high velocity within normal plus p pressures. there are already several offerings that do this using aluminum or other lightweight bullets. Zinc is another very obvious alternative. it's not really all that difficult to get a 90 greenish projectile up around 2,000 ft per second out of 9 mm. For instance Liberty defense.

[@calholli]

@@GunFunZS Let the pigs fly.

[@adonikam1]

Get s new barrel for your Berretta! I don't know about the pressure you spoke of but 147g is not necessary in 9mm. The military should know this! 124g or better yet 127g. Yes you can make your own cast Bullets any grain you want. I'd love to know what powder was used. Great video.

[@bozscaggzz7475]

That looks exactly like my black talon.

[@JLH1956]

I looks like mine too. See above.

[@AlaskanBallistics]

shooting in 30 degrees is warm my brother!

[@BuffRANGE]

:D For you indeed that is warm.

[@RM-en7ft]

The NYSP used this round years ago in Glock 17s. When a Trooper Spears came across 2 bank robbers. A gunfight ensued and one perp was hit 6 times and the other was hit 4 times all good hits and neither one was killed. Unfortunately the Trooper was killed in the gunfight. The State Police then changed their weapons to .45 caliber Glocks. Enough said.

[@CaptainXanax]

While avoiding the 9 vs 45 debate, there's a great book called The Red Dot Club. It's all accounts of police officers who have been shot and lived. One of the cops mag dumped a dude with his 45 and the guy kept coming. (I think 13 rounds.) There are always going to be anomalies.

[@tid418]

@@CaptainXanax The reality is that all handguns are wimpy.

[@DavidAR101]

The Clear Gel looks cold. Throw some 16oz/sqyd denim layers on it.

[@thegunfoogle2864]

It's funny to see the little difference in velocity equal inches for the penetration. The basics are that the hollowpoint deforms faster and earlier at a higher velocity and penetrates less because of it. Like all those 357 sig reloader who found out using regular 9mm components was not on the table.

[@CantoniaCustoms]

as a 357 sig reloader, what's your opinion on using .357 magnum hollow points for reloading?

[@thegunfoogle2864]

@@CantoniaCustoms I've never reloaded 357 mag components into 357 SIG, I only ever did solid ball ammunition rated for comparable speeds. If you found a 357 mag projectile used in commercial ammunition loaded to the same velocity it should perform well.

[@TerminalM193]

Just found more of this ammo at LAX ammo for 24 bucks a box.... What's weird is that there is clearly 2 types of JHP in the boxes because the opening of the round is small on some and great big wide on others. I really REALLY wish I had the means to test this round through both a chronograph and ballistic gelatine. I would love to see the difference between the two seperate rounds. What my military buddies told me is that the two separate rounds in the box are ment for 2 different military issued pistols with barrel length. The wider open ones are ment for their full size duty pistols while the smaller open ones are ment for their conceal carry size pistols. I wonder if buffman would test this theory if I were to send him a box of this stuff. I would love to see what it does in the chrono for both rounds in a full size and a conceal size.

[@cameronnorton5898]

I got some of that stuff from LAX as well, and I found 3 different types of bullets. The M1153 bullet, the wider opening Ranger-T bullets, and also the regular Winchester USA White Box 147 bullet. My best guess is that these were meant to be a run for the military, but there was a mixup that resulted in some of the wrong 147gr bullets getting mixed in during the run, so they just sold the mixed run to LAX Ammo at a discount, since it was unnacceptable to the military. This would explain the generic white packaging.

[@TerminalM193]

@@cameronnorton5898 yea I also noticed 3 seperate bullets too, one of which is the exact same bullet design as the 147g Ranger t-series but instead of a nikle plated brass casing it's just brass and the powder charge has quite a bit of difference.

[@humanbass]

Weird, didnt expected to be 147gr subsonic

[@mornefouche94]

147 grain 9mm is pretty much always subsonic

[@humanbass]

@@mornefouche94 yes, i mean as becoming an military standard.

[@mornefouche94]

@@humanbass O, my apologies. I misread your comment.