Cam Timing ~ The Madness Behind Each Method

[@jstmy2979]

Good video, glad you covered how and why and just not the usual you must have perfect timing video. I think that let the bottom cam hit first will cause the bow to jump forward, not down. Because the energy is moving forward, maybe a slo motion video?

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

A slow motion video would be awesome!.. it seems to me like pulling through the bottom stop first would make the bottom have more tension. Not sure the reaction that it would have but it seems to work for me. hopefully it works for other people too! Thanks for watching my friend!

[@waynestevenson9613]

P.S. Gus as I was tinkering again today with how much bottom first: I was using a last chance ez press as my draw board, as the bow came to full draw and it hit the bottom cam first, as I pulled harder into the draw to bring the top cam into contact I also watched a slight up tick in the end of the front stabilizer. More proof try it!

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

@@waynestevenson9613 I hear you. I think it does that on the draw board no matter the timing formation though 😕

[@halfstep67]

At full draw, when the bottom cam is coming to full draw before the top cam, your top cam is going to slightly be ahead of your bottom cam when the bow is shoot, especially on a binary style cam system where the top and bottom cam are tied together. This is going to give the bow a slightly upward nock travel when the bow is shot. This makes for cleaner shots off of the rest. Some cam designs and cam systems have more problematic nock travel issues especially when adjustable cams are adjusted in the shortest or longest positions. So, offsetting the timing can help straighten out the nock travel. The perfect bow would have the nocking point in the center of the bow and the grip in the center of the bow at the same time. But that is not possible, so either the nocking point is in the center and the grip is below center, or the grip is in the center and the nocking point is above center. Or the nocking point is slight above center and the grip is slightly below center. It is normal to have the top or bottom cam ahead/behind to compensate for these different design offsets. The binary cam system has symmetrical cams which makes it more easily to see the timing offset. The cam 1/2 can be difficult to see the timing offset due to the way the top cam is designed. To check and see if you need to correct your timing with any cam system, sight in at 10 or 20 yards and then shoot again but vary the amount of pressure you apply to the back wall from softer to harder and see if it changes your point of impact. This is the best way to see the effects of timing issues in real-time.

[@waynestevenson9613]

I have found the same thing as you! Bottom cam first! I find that if the bottom cam hits first, as I pull back into the wall - the top cam pulls the bow up - into the target. As with a teeter-totter you have moved the fulcrum towards the bottom and you need more to pull the top over. Shooting a bow with adjustable stops as I do gives me the ability to tinker with that. Also, I use an Axcel 16 degree down QD on the front with as much weight as I can handle to keep the grip in contact with the lifeline of my bow hand! That one thing has made a huge difference for me! Great info Gus! Colossians 3:23-24

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Love the verse brother!! I'm glad I'm not the only one though!

[@FlyinFryman]

Nice, like your vid’s. Simple and to the point and helpful, odd little tricks that work. And w/o all the KZbin fluff people add lol, good work keep and sendin…!🏹

[@macmacca659]

this is something that is definetly on my to do list. I have both hitting at the same time at the moment and will experiment with both the other opptions. Thanks for sharing!

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

I hear ya, I hope you get it lined out right! 🙂 Thanks for watchin!

[@tomrhodes7845]

Definitely will test it out. Thanks

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

@@tomrhodes7845 🙂 thanks for watching!

[@yvantomac9502]

YAY! More great info.... yes the madness is real.. Ty Angus :)

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

🙂! You're awesome, Thanks for watching the videos!

[@rogermoss6246]

Great video Angus. Good work.

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Thank you!

[@RobertWilliams82-22]

Bottom cam hitting first (for me) seems to pull my pin up more and cause my misses high.. for 3D, I’d rather have a high miss then a low miss since I shoot at the bottom 12’s… George Ryles has that creep tuning thing on Archery talk back from 2002 where he says if you hit low (when creeping forward) then you’d advance your bottom cam and if you hit high then advance your top cam…. When one cam hit behind the other, then it’s technically further forward in the valley and therefore already that much closer to the “ramp up” stage of the cam rotation which in my mind would technically be that cam rotating just a split second before the other and giving you a slightly more aggressive valley which would slightly pull the top of the riser back towards you a tad more in turn pulling your pin up.

[@tonyallen9131]

It depends on the bow your using and the and the cam system it uses, whether it be hybrid cam, binary cam or something else they all seem to have differences.

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

That makes sense! I've only messed with a couple other types of cams doing this but not enough to really experiment properly with different types and know the differences between each. I was just surprised at how well the opposite of what I've always heard worked for me. Hopefully it'll encourage other people to try out different things. Thanks for checking out the video! 🙂

[@YoureSoVane]

When the bottom cam hits first, it's more likely to rotate first on the shot than if they were in perfect sync. Depending on bow design, you're loading the bottom half a little more just to get the top half to cam over. Most people's grip is more stable and solid at the heel of the palm than the throat of the grip. The bow would push on the solid part of the grip just that much more at the first impulse of recoil. It depends on the riser and your grip angle. High wrist grips might not benefit at all. Prime bows have a high grip location, so they might not be worth the effort to time differently. You might have form issues that benefit from top cam hitting first. If your limbs aren't tightened down all the way, you might benefit equally by keeping the cams in sync but tillering the limbs forwards or backwards to get the same feel at full draw.

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Interesting. The last paragraph that you wrote I haven't thought about until now. Might be something to mess with. Thanks for the comment. 🙂 God bless.

[@tstoute82]

I just watched your video on drawlenght when you talked about nock point and was gonna ask if you thought if your nock point would cause a bow to tune better with bottom cam hitting first cause like you said not what i was always told. Can not get a perfect paper tear or broadhead tune unless i slow top cam down about 1/16”. It feels great and shoots great but in back of my mind i want to know why i cant tune it perfect with cams stopping at same time

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Hey! There are a couple of things that it could be. One thing that it could be is it could be as simple as one limb is slightly stiffer than the other (top vs bottom). You could try swapping them but that's a lot of work and it like that it's not the best solution.. kinda a last ditch effort type of thing.. but I wouldn't worry about it to be totally honest man.. The other thing (more likely also) that it could be it what I'll write below: Basically you're going to be changing the way your string pays out when you change your loop position on your string. So with that said, it makes the timing of your bow need to be changed to be able to have an "in time" system. There are a lot of theories out there as to why people shoot a high or a low arrow through the Burger button. Here are the reasons why I think a low or a high Burger button position is beneficial: High: I think that a high Burger button position is beneficial when the true center of the string is higher than where the burger button sits or the shooter is holding a lot of stabilizer weight. This is generally only beneficial if you plan on having an "in time" system or a "bottom cam first" system. What I have found is that it does make the bow hold a little more steady vertically when you have your nocking point in the true center of the string. Although, having a high nocking point can also cause amplified mistakes. Due to the arrow being further from the bow hand, any torque that is induced into the bow is maximized. Low: A low knocking point is beneficial when the shooter wants to de-escalate mistakes in their shot, holding low weight, or likes the feel of a "top cam first" timing. Due to the arrow being closer to the bow hand, any torque that is induced into the bow is minimized. Center: A center knocking point (or straight through the Burger button) can be beneficial as a happy medium and to test out how "bottom cam first" or "top cam first" timing feels at fulldraw while aiming. -------- Now, With all of the different setups above you can also try out different Cam timings. Cam timing just increases vertical pressure in one direction or another depending on which cam is hitting first: Bottom cam first: cam timing will generally increase downward aiming pressure and increase the likelihood of "dip bangs" (low misses) Top cam first: cam timing will generally increase upward aiming pressure and increase the likelihood of "up bangs" (high misses) -------- Multiple combinations work together differently but the pressure depends on 2 things: nocking point, and which cam is hitting first. If you have a high nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to rise up out of the target so you may find that a "bottom first" cam timing will help neutralize that. If you have a low nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to fall out of the target so you may find that a "Top first" cam timing will help neutralize that. If you have a center nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to stay on an even plain but a bottom or top first cam timing may still improve your hold depending on the make up of the bow that you are shooting. ------ It's really going to come down to the physical make up of the bow and the shooter though. Each bow is built different and so the shooter is going to need to experiment with each set up to see what does the best for them specifically.

[@tstoute82]

I know i shouldn’t worry about it cause it feels good and shoots great out to 80 but i like to tinker and want to know why things do what they do. Thanks for that write up it was exactly what i been finding how this bow is acting and where it wants to be set up.

[@tonyviers-de9qi]

So does bottom hitting first make your pin pull up into your target?

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Hey man, I'll try to do a video about that sometime but until then I'll tell you what I can right now. Basically you're going to be changing the way your string pays out when you change your loop position on your string. So with that said, it makes the timing of your bow need to be changed to be able to have an "in time" system. There are a lot of theories out there as to why people shoot a high or a low arrow through the Burger button. Here are the reasons why I think a low or a high Burger button position is beneficial: High: I think that a high Burger button position is beneficial when the true center of the string is higher than where the burger button sits or the shooter is holding a lot of stabilizer weight. This is generally only beneficial if you plan on having an "in time" system or a "bottom cam first" system. What I have found is that it does make the bow hold a little more steady vertically when you have your nocking point in the true center of the string. Although, having a high nocking point can also cause amplified mistakes. Due to the arrow being further from the bow hand, any torque that is induced into the bow is maximized. Low: A low knocking point is beneficial when the shooter wants to de-escalate mistakes in their shot, holding low weight, or likes the feel of a "top cam first" timing. Due to the arrow being closer to the bow hand, any torque that is induced into the bow is minimized. Center: A center knocking point (or straight through the Burger button) can be beneficial as a happy medium and to test out how "bottom cam first" or "top cam first" timing feels at full draw while aiming. -------- Now, With all of the different setups above you can also try out different Cam timings. Cam timing just increases vertical pressure in one direction or another depending on which cam is hitting first: Bottom cam first: cam timing will generally increase downward aiming pressure and increase the likelihood of "dip bangs" (low misses) Top cam first: cam timing will generally increase upward aiming pressure and increase the likelihood of "up bangs" (high misses) -------- Multiple combinations work together differently but the pressure depends on 2 things: nocking point, and which cam is hitting first. If you have a high nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to rise up out of the target so you may find that a "bottom first" cam timing will help neutralize that. If you have a low nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to fall out of the target so you may find that a "Top first" cam timing will help neutralize that. If you have a center nocking point then the bow is naturally going to want to stay on an even plain but a bottom or top first cam timing may still improve your hold depending on the make up of the bow that you are shooting. ------ It's really going to come down to the physical make up of the bow and the shooter though ultimately. Each bow is built differently and so the shooter is going to need to experiment with each set up to see what does the best for them specifically.

[@tonyviers-de9qi]

@@AngusMoss_Archery thanks this explains alot. Appreciate it so much and I’ll keep an eye out for that video

[@rileycalvillo627]

When adjusting cam timing do you add or take away twist on the cable or the string?

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

So to adjust your Cam timing. It's going to be your cables that you're gonna want to adjust.

[@rileycalvillo627]

OK great. Thank you. Great video.

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

@@rileycalvillo627 no problem!

[@jstmy2979]

I would think the reason for having the top cam to hit first might be holding weight, it might be easier to hold on target that way? Maybe?

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Theoretically both ways (top and bottom first) should "increase" You're holding weight. The thought is; is that when you hit the first draw stop you have to pull through that draw stop to get the other cable to touch the other draw stop. So theoretically you're holding weight goes up. I'm not entirely sure what determines top or bottom though.

[@mariomitcham8441]

D- loop height is as much of a factor in this or more than the cam timing.

[@Gibsonlife573]

Awsome stiff

[@AngusMoss_Archery]

Thanks. And thanks for watching the videos 🙂