Can Rejecting Religion Help Solve the Problem of Suffering? | John Lennox at Harvard Medical

John Lennox (Oxford) explores how atheism attempts to answer the problem of suffering - and why it might not be as clear as we think. | Harvard Medical School, 10/3/2014 | View full forum at • The Loud Absence: Wher... | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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[@malato43]

This man is smarter than every last one of us… Read the Bible and beg for forgiveness from YOUR CREATOR and his son Jesus Christ

[@jjevans1693]

Gullible I guess.

[@marculatour6229]

Easy question. When did religion begin? "Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." Voltaire: "La religion a commencé le jour où le premier fripon a rencontré le premier imbécile." Hi fools!

[@jjevans1693]

Naive little sheep

[@barbossa70]

well smarter than you that’s for sure

[@gknight4719]

There are different kinds of suffering, humans treat other humans badly for greed or power, Then there are chemicals, bacteria, cancer, plagues, and viruses. There are tsunamis, earthquakes, and asteroids, which do you think god did?

[@rizdekd3912]

There's two connotations. Suffering as a problem...as opposed to the problem OF suffering. Suffering as a problem, ie something we often have to endure will exist even if there wasn't any religion/god. But if one contends there's no god, there really isn't a problem OF suffering...ie the problem of explaining suffering. Because that's what the problem is...EXPLAINING suffering if a good god exists. The 'problem' goes away in that it's no longer hard to EXPLAIN suffering if there are no gods. But the suffering itself, and the problems it causes still exist.

[@selinbayram]

I love videos that lean in religion and critical questions.

[@marculatour6229]

Easy question. When did religion begin? "Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." Voltaire: "La religion a commencé le jour où le premier fripon a rencontré le premier imbécile." Hi fools!

[@fritula6200]

Roman Catholic teaching:: SUFFERING:- *** When you are struck by other people's suffering, & the contraction of their Souls, so that you are induced to pray for them with a pitying & contrite heart, pray to God to have mercy upon them & to forgive them their sins, as you would pray forgiveness of yr own sins - that is, implore God with tears to pardon them; likewise pray for the salvation of others as you would pray for yr own salvation. If you attain to this & make it a habit you will receive from God an abundance of spiritual gifts, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Who loves the soul that cares for the salvation of others, because He Himself, the most Holy Spirit, wishes to save us all in every possible way, if only we do not oppose Him, & do not harden our hearts. "The Spirit Itself maketh intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered:

[@surrenderdaily333]

Jesus told His disciples to sell their garment and buy a sword before He went to the cross. If we aren't to have weapons to defend ourselves, then what did He mean by that? But no, we are not to use weapons for offensive purposes, but only for defense. That is the difference between the two statements that many think are contradictions.

[@rick4400]

Our weapons are Spiritual.

[@nickvoutsas5144]

Where in the Christian Bible does it state tha we should get swords?

[@surrenderdaily333]

@@nickvoutsas5144 Luke 22:34-36, for one. He was being literal in those verses bc He was talking about their literal clothing and supplies.

[@johngreenhorn8853]

YES

[@ZenWithKen]

It takes religion to justify giving god a pass on evil. If given the power, not one of you would allow the suffering that you allow your god. You are all better than it, yet here you are, professing it is all loving while it does nothing to show such virtue.

[@user-ji2on8eg3l]

Jesus I love you. All I have is yours. Yours I am yours I want to be. Do with me whatever you will.

[@cgo225]

We have forgotten God...... yep, absolutely true!

[@reality1958]

Designed suffering will always be an insurmountable problem for theism

[@JosiahFickinger]

Obviously pain is designed to warn us about fatal situations

[@JosiahFickinger]

Regardless, the problem is not with our bodies, but the world we live in has been corrupted

[@reality1958]

@@JosiahFickinger not my point

[@reality1958]

@@JosiahFickinger the point is the intent/will of a god who intentionally designs all living things to suffer

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@reality1958 Very good question. I suppose it's the same reason why there is hatred in the world. You can't have love without the possibility for hate, and you can't have free will without the possibility of things going wrong. As mentioned before, pain is designed for us to be aware of life threatening dangers. However, I feel thAt we can't have the ability to be stimulated without the ability to be overstimulated.

[@velkyn1]

nope, it doesn't. The problem of suffering is always going to be a problem. Rejecting the lies of these cults just eliminates the harm they cause.

[@surrenderdaily333]

I believe GOD is the ultimate reality, and the Spiritual world He created before He created the physical world. And I think He created both of these worlds for a reason and a purpose, and evil and suffering are a necessary part of that reason and purpose.

[@marculatour6229]

Easy question. When did religion begin? "Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." Voltaire: "La religion a commencé le jour où le premier fripon a rencontré le premier imbécile." Hi fools!

[@surrenderdaily333]

@@marculatour6229 That's funny. God called all those who did not believe in Him with all the mountains of evidence He left for us, fools. In PSALM 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." I think God is a bit above your IQ. I'll stick with His assessment.

[@jjevans1693]

@@surrenderdaily333 Sounds like something they would put in a book of lies that they wanted weak minded fools to believe.

[@jjevans1693]

@@surrenderdaily333 Can you support your claim of invisible supernatural beings watching over us?

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

"Can Rejecting Religion Help Solve the Problem of Suffering?" Suffering is only an explanatory problem for people who belief in an all-benevolent and all-powerfull god.

[@larrysamples9406]

It already has been rejected since the removal of church and state and society has lost its morals or are you not paying attention to the state of western civilization?

[@garymcmullin2292]

it seems to me the very pursuit of the question of where is God in suffering is just wrong. I could care less about what the world view thinks and especially what the atheist thinks about suffering and evil. They would not understand nor agree with an answer if God gave it. Evil exists because God bestowed us with free will. Good and evil coexist. When Man fell in Eden he brought in the possibility of evil through sin. Sin is the key, it is that which is against Gods will. Everywhere we look there is violence, there is evil and it every bit sprang from mans fall. The natural world can be a marvel of peace and beauty it can also be a place of turmoil, violence, catastrophe and ugliness. This is how the world is, God pronounced it at the fall. Animals prey on others, life is savage and violent yet God tells us a time is coming when the lion will lie down with the lamb and there will be no more violence. What is needed is recognition that bad things will always happen and we just have to cope, no sense in scowling at God, asking how He could allow it, it is part of the natural order of things. What we can do is seek to shield from the evil and suffering, to remediate it and for the Christian to acknowledge the goodness and glory of God, even in suffering. It has been said that suffering will either drive you further from God or draw you closer. It is a complex subject but make no mistake God uses it to mature the Christian, to grow their faith and strength.

[@rj1000]

And many others could not care less what you think.

[@reality1958]

A god who designed suffering for all living things could never be a good god

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@reality1958 Foolish talk. Suffering is a result of rejecting the God who helped stabilize verything together in the first place

[@reality1958]

@@JosiahFickinger oh? So what did a 2 month old baby with lymphoma do to god?

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@reality1958 It's what their ancestors did, of course. But all the babies and children who innocently suffered will be reimbursed in the next life

[@anaccount8474]

Why do theists spend so much energy picking away at the difference between atheist and agnostic as if they’ve found some massive contradiction that means they can dismiss the whole thing

[@JosiahFickinger]

Of course it doesn't. It's like jumping off a bridge that's about to collapse

[@TheSpacePlaceYT]

The problem of suffering is not answered by atheism. The position of atheism is "deal with it".

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@TheSpacePlaceYT I'm saying that rejecting God because of suffering is like cutting off the branch your sitting on. It's self-condemning. It would do no good to escape the fate of the bridge by becoming it

[@TheSpacePlaceYT]

@@JosiahFickinger Fair.

[@rj1000]

@@TheSpacePlaceYT The position of atheism is that Science and reason can help with suffering.

[@reality1958]

@@TheSpacePlaceYTwithout a hod belief then there is no intent in nature. But once you enter a god as the designer, then that god is responsible for designed suffering

[@skepticusmaximus184]

@2:53 "I believe in evidence based faith..." Srsly? I'm inclined to dub this a 'Lennoxymoron'.

[@JosiahFickinger]

Evidence based faith is referring to a relationship. Do you even bother to think about it?

[@walkindalight]

If you listen to any of his conversations with atheists, you will hear him talking more detail about that if he didn’t explain it well enough in this video for you. Everyone has faith in something. The question is, what evidence will you choose? And the next question is, why?

[@skepticusmaximus184]

@@walkindalight Read the reply I've posted above to Joseph Frikinger. I DO NOT HAVE FAITH IN ANYTHING. What I do have is evidence and reason. Those are what my convictions are based upon. FAITH as a concept is garbage that I have no use for. Trying to piggy back faith onto evidence, reason and trust, is just dishonest equivocating. "What evidence will I choose?" Evidence for WHAT? If someone wants to demonstrate something exist or is factual, then it's up to them to decide what evidence to present in support of their claims. That evidence stands or falls on its own merits. So I don't know what you are talking about, and frankly I'm not sure you do either.

[@jjevans1693]

​@@walkindalightCan you answer your own questions? What evidence do you have for believing in invisible supernatural beings?

[@walkindalight]

@@jjevans1693 Yeah, I can actually. But because I don’t have time to “reinvent the wheel” you are most welcome to find the answers you need from any one of the thousands… tens of thousands of videos on KZbin that address the COUNTLESS evidences that we have an amazing, all powerful Creator God. PS - Here’s one thing you’ll need to do first. Separate yourself from the offense you experience because things aren’t the way you think they should be “if there was a God.” (I may be off track saying that, but from my experience, every person who rejects the idea of God at some level has experienced something traumatic that they can’t reconcile with the idea of there being a ‘loving God.’) Blessings 🙏🙏🙏

[@marculatour6229]

Easy question. When did religion begin? "Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." Voltaire: "La religion a commencé le jour où le premier fripon a rencontré le premier imbécile." Hi fools!

[@surrenderdaily333]

That's funny. God called all those who did not believe in Him with all the mountains of evidence He left for us, fools. In PSALM 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." I think God is a bit above your IQ. I'll stick with His assessment.

[@msmd3295]

Lennox is starting thus video based upon ancient beliefs that should no longer apply to the modern world when he points out ancient 'philosophers' and the ideas they held. They were Not scientists even and though modern science did eventually grow out of and matured from that ancient philosophy they are not the same. It's also disingenuous to utilize ancient philosophers as authorities to dispute modern science. Those ancient philosophers were, like most people today, greatly influenced by the cultural standards of their Era. If the simpletons of their day believed in gods, for example, it would be socially acceptable to provide reasons to justify such beliefs. The same simpleminded applies even today even though just 400-500 years after the scientific revolution and I strongly suspect all the rationales used today to justify theism has little to nothing to do with the scientific method and instead has far more to do with emotional insecurities about suffering and death. It takes a courageous person to accept life as it really is and a life that can be proven to be factual. Then move on from there and Still manage to live a honorable, honest, law abiding and civil life. Academic credentials, speaking engagements, etc don't necessarily make that person.

[@sgad167061]

msmd3295, when you say that we should move out from ancient beliefs and live a honourable life, honest, law abiding and civil life; whose moral standards are you refering to that we should live by? Yours, mine or the ones that are present now which have its roots on the ancient beliefs that you now say that we should move from? In some ways we have been influenced by these ancient beliefs and now unconciously seem to advocate we now know better. 🤔

[@ce6236]

It seems like a utopian era from a sci fi movie.

[@msmd3295]

@@sgad167061 Even ancient beliefs were based upon the needs of social groups. Society decides what "values" are required and what values are permittable. Our values are those we learn from society or social groups and it's always been that way. Many of the values expressed in the bible, in particular the New Testament were social values that existed in different cultures even before the time of Jesus. Some historians believe that even Jesus during his 15-20 year absence from biblical works likely traveled to other regions including SE Asia in which he was exposed to Buddhist beliefs and took some of what he learned back to the Middle East and served as a basis for his teachings. So it's likely what's in the New Testament as far as values are concerned were values that were not authentically Jesus'. If one looks through human history there is no escaping the fact that the values we have as individuals are values our society taught us. And those values are determined by each culture or society and are structure based upon the consensus those values are what works best for its members and is good for society overall. And those values by necessity have to be based upon real-world facts. Which means as the world changes, the values set by societies must change or they will eventually perish because the real world will ultimately decide. Take for example the controversial subject of pregnancy choice. Based upon some arcane values from centuries ago, "pro-life" advocates want to insist upon the idea that life begins at conception. But that wasn't even the case centuries ago because woman didn't even know they were pregnant until well into the 1st trimester. The unstated christian motive for such a value is to ensure their flocks keep growing and new babies represent future converts. That's completely contrary to what is known about global population growth. Just since the 1970s global population has DOUBLED from 4 Billion to 8 Billion. Even though global resources are diminishing in part due to population growth. That's a mere 60 yrs. And yet evangelicals insist women have babies they don't want.

[@rj1000]

Unfortunately you demean your academic standing by talking nonsense. You start by assuming a god is a “he”. You then raise the question of whether God is impotent or malevolent; the answer is that there is no credible evidence that God exists and there has never been and will never be. Don’t twist Dawkins comments please. Dawkins is far more convincing in his arguments. Atheism has never suggested that they have a solution to suffering or anything else. Their arguments is simply it is all part of the universe as it is and evolution and you cannot change it. I think it is time for you to pack it in.

[@rodolfosoriano5960]

The Lord Jesus Christ have said and I quote:" Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you"!😊💗 .

[@rj1000]

@@rodolfosoriano5960 Your argument failed the minute you started quoting from one version of a book written by men about one version of what they want you to believe is religion.

[@rodolfosoriano5960]

@@rj1000 ...well I don't argue when it comes to my faith because contention is from the devil itself...or you are just trying to rationalize my quotes because its the TRUTH...i don't buy your point. Why don't you try Sam Shamoun or Christian prince and let me see how they humiliate you and dig your own grave to shame...i'll be waiting in that event soon?! 😁💗

[@rodolfosoriano5960]

@@rj1000 ...or try Frank Turek for your convenience! 😁💗

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@rj1000 Your argument failed the minute you assumed it was man-made