Can You Separate the Art from the Artist?

[@leeswift7883]

The older I get the more I can't separate the art from the artist. There is so much good art and content in the world to move on to with my free and valuable time, especially as what they do and have done is always in the back of my mind

[@KitKat0nly]

Can't help but to agree with this 👏

[@teilfuller52]

this !!!!

[@arsena5209]

I'm 21 and I've agreed with this for as long as I remember. Do I always follow this? No, there's likely artists I listen to or follow now that are shitty people but I don't know about it. But once I find out I cannot follow them anymore without feeling horrible and so I stop and move on to other artists.

[@jenjoestar.]

💯💯

[@camelopardalis84]

​@@Teddy143FresaIs this referring to a deleted comment?

[@lackshuwu]

"what was a different time? this morning???" literally dying😭

[@georgenassr6133]

@@lackshuwu i decomposed 💀💀💀

[@susanjohnson6276]

@@lackshuwu Me too when she bursts out,"You've got the part!!"

[@ayo3181]

Separating the art from the artist is a privilege those who aren't negatively impacted by the artist enjoy

[@aurora_skye]

So true!

[@demetriam2408]

Exactly!!

[@tankiegirl]

Can you elaborate on that?

[@ZhigerSaparov]

saying that its a privilege makes it seem that then its okay to listen to them if they weren't, unless that's what ur saying

[@Gl3t]

​@@ZhigerSaparovi dont think they mean privileged in that way. More like if you like a person and their art, its important that you think about the consequences of their action

[@mir-miru]

"honey the children are missing" "not now darling Not Even Emily posted"

[@your_favorite_alex]

i thought yhis was about fnaf

[@justaturky2890]

Lol​@@your_favorite_alex

[@Artificer_]

@@your_favorite_alex it is

[@PaperLoser-gv4wb]

Not even a father anymore

[@your_favorite_alex]

@@Artificer_ o

[@Maudtattoos]

It’s interesting how the saying “separate the art from the artist” got misconstrued (probably on purpose) to justify still supporting someone that is bad or problematic, when In actuality, that saying originally meant that the creator of the art had a certain meaning or intention with the art, but people consuming the art would interpret it in their own way based on their own life experiences, aka, separating the art from the artist. 😗

[@camelopardalis84]

That latter thing you mention is "death of the author", not "separate the art from the artist".

[@Maudtattoos]

@@camelopardalis84 I mean it’s in the same school of thought, there’s another saying “the artist is dead” that is also used as a way to critique and think about the art you are consuming, all three of these sayings and schools of thought all point to the art living and exiting separately from the artists.

[@TamagoSenshi]

Yea, the only time the two can't be separated is when the art is about the reason you'd want to separate it from the artist. So long as no money is going to the artist and the song doesn't reflect them being an awful person, there's no reason to tie that song to that person's fault

[@AuntieHauntieGames]

You're not off base (because you are correct that it is not about personal enjoyment) but the misunderstanding you have in mind is that "separating the art from the artist" is an academic principle in art studies which acknowledges that we cannot wish away the place a particular artist's body of art occupies in art history and culture just because they were an awful or socially undesirable person. Picasso's misogyny does not - for instance - reduce or deny the impact his work had on the progression or influence on American art. Even though many people might find that misogyny reprehensible, it would be more reprehensible to pretend that his cultural impact never happened. JK Rowling's descent into transmisogyny (and I say this as a trans woman) has been grotesque to witness, but her cultural impact on literature and reading still places her on the same level (within her genre) as E. Nesbit and C.S. Lewis. Someone studying the history of western children's literature must still examine Rowling and her work, and acknowledge its significance, regardless of their personal feelings about her as a person. Unfortunately, very few people (even artists) actually study art history sooo... the intention of the statement got misconstrued.

[@Razumen]

@@Maudtattoos They mean different things. "separate the art from the artist" means to be able to enjoy a piece of media without making it guilty by association. "death of the author"means that an author's viewpoints are not relevant outside of the media itself when one is interpreting a piece of media.

[@carolinejohnsonn]

lately ive thought about this a lot, especially with the amount of creators being exposed this year😭😭

[@PaperLoser-gv4wb]

It’s just creator after creator, every kind of creator. Art music commentary you name it. Not Like Us is a national anthem at this point

[@CesRaisons]

Kendrick Lamar casted a hex on all the artists, anyone could be next

[@isacocca3187]

After months of creators of every type getting exposed, i got heartbreak from even Neil Gaiman being (allegedly) a shit person, i really hope that it's not true but at the same time i want to believe the victims :( sorry for the rant, it's just a terrible year to like public figures

[@sofiac.1765]

​@@isacocca3187I actually thought of Neil Gaiman when reading the title of the video :( it makes me so sad

[@Joshhieyify]

​​@@CesRaisonsMight come back to bite him, dude hangs out with problematic people himself.

[@origami_dinosaur]

WHEN IN DOUBT, PIRATE 🔥🔥🔥

[@spiritualdanger]

I love adding the mp3 files to my Spotify

[@mewmew6158]

Exactly! You can like someone's art AND make sure they don't get paid for it as punishment.

[@chrisevans9688]

​@@mewmew6158 Chris Evans good xes in now this one is that now on Monday night soon now my first day soon thanks you guys and did you guys and

[@SaurianTravelGuide]

pirate the 💩 out of them things if a person goes dumpster diving for stuff, they don't lug back the whole bin. no point in supporting a cr*p person just for something they made that we like. piracy is the way 🎉🎉

[@rahbeeuh]

​@@mewmew6158yeah but the other people involved, who may not make as much money as who y'all aren't supporting is being "punished" as well.

[@jordansjukebox]

i saw chris brown and ran cause why does he still have a thriving career

[@samaralyn9646]

why does rihanna

[@cccycling5835]

Because women love abusers. Simple as.

[@Pfpfpfpfpf2020]

​@@samaralyn9646oh I'm sorry, who did Rihanna batter?

[@CesRaisons]

Who is Chris Brown?

[@jennah5990]

@@CesRaisonssearch him up, he’s a music artist

[@yu-chronos]

I think the "separating art from the artist" is not really a "Can you do it?" but more of a "Will you do it?" It's more of a choice than an actual separation going on. Someone may feel completely horrible engaging with an artist if they know said artist did questionable things, while some others may just move on and keep engaging with their art without really caring or supporting the artist morally. Personally, I do separate the art from the artist beacuse in this age you can just pirate almost anything you come in contact with.

[@Liz-abeth]

Isn't it illegal to pirate? I would, but I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk.

[@rigelestbit]

There's a whole point regarding interacting with the material in a community might give incentives for other people to join/buy merch/support the author, so even pirating but staying in a community (or buying non official merch) is still promoting and giving opportunity for the creator to stay relevant.

[@keerya4179]

@Liz-abeth it's illegal but you can't get punished as a consumer as long as you don't download. (And even then it's rarely enforced, I downloaded thousands of anime in my teenage years and the worst trouble I got in was getting a virus pretending to be the police asking for money to pay a fine for pirating.) Internet safety things you should do even if you don't plan on pirating : Get an ad blocker, make sure your navigator can't download anything without your permission (yes this setting is disabled by default), always check if the file format is the right one (.mov .avi .MP4 etc... for videos for example) and you're good to go.

[@Liz-abeth]

@@keerya4179 Ah, okay. Thank you for the info!

[@vuivraalbastra]

That's generally my stance too. If an artist was horrible but their art is good and doesn't have a shitty message or one related to what they did, I can still consume it without supporting them financially and without recommending it to others. Sure, you can choose to completely stop it if you want, but in some cases you're just hurting yourself by not consuming something that you love while that artist won't feel your absence in the slightest.

[@NeighborhoodBasketCase]

A recent example is Cody Ko, his wife is receiving just as much flack if not more. I personally feel like the way someone reacts to their wrong doings says a lot about them. I don’t expect artists to be perfect but I expect them to have accountability

[@Harpsypookie]

yes omg

[@fh9061]

Lmao calling a react channel art is hilarious

[@NeighborhoodBasketCase]

@@fh9061 did I say it was art? No, but it’s the same concept, can you enjoy what someone makes knowing what they’ve done?

[@dawnriddler]

What's happening with cody?

[@NeighborhoodBasketCase]

@@dawnriddler apparently he hooked up with Tana Mongeau (or however you spell it) when she was 17 and he was 25

[@heartless7494]

just an interesting fact: the guy who coined the "death of the author" concept was actually arguing that the reader gave most of the meaning/interpretation of a book (for example). Basically the context was that more and more people were getting into reading, with literacy rate rising, and there was a LOT of gatekeeping from elitists that the commonfolk wasn't interperting books in the "right way"/"way intended by the author". And then the idea of "death of the author for the sake of the birth of the reader" appeared, by realizing that the authors "intended way" is rooted in the authors prejudices, and the words he writes down might only imply the meaning intended to the author themselves (they have their own context in their head), and thus the reader, with their own prejudices and context, will absorb a totally different meaning from the words written down, and that's inevitable, so that meaning isn't "wrong". If an author wants to survive "death of the author", then they would have to try to take the readers prejudices into account and that's difficult.

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

I said the same thing somewhere else in the comments! It drove me absolutely nuts when people were using the term to justify still enjoying Harry Potter back when JK was starting to be a bit iffy because THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEANS. She still wrote the books you just don't have to prioritise what she says about them over how you interpret them.

[@heartless7494]

@@GlassesBooksCookies well i think the 19th century "death of the author" discussion was clearly won by the side of the readers. I think most people accept that trans people identifying with Harry Potter have a valid interpretation of the text, even if it was written by a transphobe. I also think that JK Rowlings personal context and prejudices are so outlandish that there are probably extremely few people who'll read harry potter and interpret it the way JKR was thinking about it when she wrote it. Nowadays, the death of the author discussion more importantly exists within the context of speaking with your wallet, and understanding that "liking a work of art" means so much more than just enjoying an interpretation of it: Today when you like something, you tell your friends about it, you defend the author, you wear merch and purchase concert tickets. The societal impact is far greater than it used to be when people were just talking about reading books in "the right way". Maybe I misunderstood your frustration, do you mean you're annoyed by people using the credentials of the original "death of the author" concept to give their endorsement of "problematic" media undeserved authenticity? Because I might argue that saying "my interpretation is not problematic therefore my consumption/endorsement of this media is not problematic, regardless of the author" actually IS coherent with the original meaning of "death of the author", but it does require more explanation than just using "death of the author" to defend anything and everything. Like if a singer's lyrics are about mistreating women and the singer turns out to be an abuser, yeah idk how anyone could claim an unproblematic interpretation and justify their "death of the author", that doesn't fly lmao edit: oh wait yeah I see what you're saying, also are you referring to people who take the "death" part literally and say that someone else wrote the books? like the memes that say "Hatsune Miku made Minecraft" that get posted everytime Notch (actual creator of minecraft and known white sup) says something heinous. Those are funny, i don't think they're intended to change the meaning of "death of the author" though

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

@@heartless7494 You may have misunderstood my frustrations initially but I still enjoyed reading your reply and I completely agree with your point about how the scope of the discussion around the death of the author has broadened quite a bit since it's conception. Simply "liking a work of art" is a much more involved and complex process (and even statement) than it was in the past. As for what I was actually frustrated about, the Hatsune Miko mêmes were definitely a joke (although I had no idea who she was so they didn't mean much to me) but there were genuinely some people out there saying that, as they refused to acknowledge JK Rowling as the author of Harry Potter, that meant that they didn't have to think about their choice to continue engaging with it (and always used "death of the author" to explain that stance, I should add).

[@LunaBeth97]

Really enjoyed reading this discussion and just wanted to add my own lil not-great-at-english-lit comment 😂 It's also a bit ironic that one could argue that Harry Potter is the literal definition of "death of the author" as the fandom made the series so popular in part due to their different interpretations and reimagining of the story through fanfics/ fan theories. The fandom has expanded the story so much that some aspects have been completely changed and accepted almost as canon. Like how people despise Snape even though the intent was totally different. It's just funny that death of the author does apply for the series but people incorrectly use it to excuse their support of one of the worst transphobes at the moment.

[@Razumen]

@@heartless7494 There is no side to win, just like there's no right or wrong interpretations by readers. It also doesn't have to do with the idea of supporting the the author outside of the media they make. If someone is using it like that, they don't understand the concept. "Death of the Author" is about interpreting a piece of media starting and ending with the media itself. Ignoring the author's idea of what means what in the media. If it's not in the media being analyzed, it's irrelevant.

[@teamLewis44]

You can separate art from artist. But in some cases what artist did is too much, so its not always possible

[@CesRaisons]

Yeah, also if it bleeds into the art. Such as Jeepers Creepers, where the monster sniffs the mans underwear

[@Ilovefluffykitties369]

Like Picasso

[@valyntine666]

yeah, any musician with pdf file allegations or abuse cases: can't listen to their music bc idk if they're writing abt kids 💀💀💀

[@SDAnand-qn7re]

you cant separate art from artist because if you are listening to the you are supporting them financially by making them money which they use to do illegal things

[@teamLewis44]

@ What if it was done in the past? So many movies and paintings you are constantly watching and not even realizing how much hurt these artists caused

[@JustThinkForASecond]

One thing I’ve almost always knew to not do, is romanticize artists. I know their songs, but I’ll never pretend or convince myself that I know them. For me, enjoying a song doesn’t automatically mean that I like or even slightly know the artist. But I’m cool with that personally.

[@iingrid_piingrid]

Melanie Martinez has been my favorite artist since 2020 and I almost can’t listen to her anymore because of the things I heard when the allegations from 2017 resurfaced a few weeks ago

[@dunkineaterr000]

for real i can’t even watch content about her without thinking of the allegations

[@BlankComicsMain]

Same it makes me so sad. The aesthetic of her music is one I struggle to find in other artists, I honestly don’t know what to do 😭😭

[@dunkineaterr000]

@@BlankComicsMain exactly melanie is such a unique artist and her music is so different so the allegations just make me so upset

[@tuesdaywithjisoo8395]

Yeah I've been listening since 2016 and was too young to really understand back in 2017 tbh but honestly I'm leaning more and more away from her as time goes on. Like idk how she can stand on stage and preach about supporting Palestine and all but when assault allegations come forward she's like "well she didn't say no"

[@elledayooo]

i just think its dumb that she acts like she isnt basically rich to excuse how high her merch is priced. edit: i looked into the allegations and honestly even if it came out that she didn't rape timothy her response was absolutely terrible and the fact that she made a fucking song about it is even worse. i'm disgusted by the fact that her fans completely lied about timothy admitting that she made up the whole thing, too. and melanie didn't even make a proper response to that. yikes.

[@Cinnamonraisin_Bagel]

Separating the art from the artist depends on how much of the artists ideas and ideologies go into the art, also make sure if you desperately love the art and hate the artist (no shame from me if it's not something morally wrong) then make sure the artist can't profit from your enjoyment

[@ItachiUchiha-sh6of]

Reminds me of R-kelly... Bro was not subtle at all.

[@Cinnamonraisin_Bagel]

@@ItachiUchiha-sh6of Peopl are often blinded by being a fan, though quitting after they're revealed as bad is better than supporting them through thick and thin i suppose

[@palemeadows]

again, what do you mean by that? if i take a mangaka author i follow for example, ive noticed they enjoy doomed siblings with incestous undertones. does that make them someone who supports incest irl? well, no! or when this same mangaka used racism in their story to point out the issues in japanese culture with passive racism. i dont believe what you enjoy in fiction = anything in real life. if they have ‘problematic’ content, then, so what? BUT, its always very obvious, when they actually hold these beliefs in real life, because youll see how they interact with real people. if you like to hurt your ocs, thats cool, but if you treat real people cruelly, then tf? you understand?

[@Raintheartist3688]

@@palemeadowsi think here, it's not about the media the person makes itself. but if the themes the artist puts in their media, lines up with the horrible stuff they do, that's when it becomes inseparable. If the horrible stuff you're doing is reflected in the media you create, your art can no longer be separated from you since they are a reflection of your bad deeds.

[@palemeadows]

@@Raintheartist3688 i agree! but, my issue is that a shocking amount of people THINK just putting that stuff into fiction MEANS you support it irl, and they’ll have no evidence you do. it’s frustrating, but people be dumb as hell.

[@idontknowanymore7689]

I feel like consuming/liking media from a problematic person isn't a problem (to a certain extent) but to full on stan, support and defend someone who's constantly problematic is just next level.

[@AntaresTheAltruist]

I agree! Art can mean different things to different people and goes beyond the creator themselves (unless the art very blatantly and obviously is about the problematic thing the creator did or believes in). Especially if you consume it in a way that doesn't directly financially benefit the creator. The issue for me becomes when people defend the actions of the creators they consume just because they like the art. Celebrity worship in general is sort of weird to me

[@VictorAdelino-t6b]

It’s pretty sad that the skit about artists in the past can actually apply to the modern days too tbh. Like, when you think of it, Chappell Roan is the only one who’s achieving *mainstream* (not niche) success with an *openly* (not “tee hee this may or may not be gay haha”) WLW song

[@Eosinophyllis]

Hayley Kiyoko had mainstream success, especially with acting, but I’m certain she would’ve had so much more had she not been so open about being a lesbian

[@franknfurter5336]

I think the line between "niche" and "mainstream" is growing thinner and thinner with how prevalent the internet and streaming as a method of consumption becomes over time. I could easily argue that girl in red, renee rapp, kehlani, and haley kiyoko are equally mainstream

[@franknfurter5336]

I'd also argue that poker face by lady gaga is pretty explicitly gay if you read the original lyrics

[@mirroredhour]

​@@franknfurter5336people forget that lady gaga is bi all the time

[@nataliahicks4629]

I'd argue that Lunch by Billie Eilish is pretty explicitly gay, I mean, what else could it mean? She's like no2 most listened to on spotify too.

[@jihyosspicytoenail9921]

My first thought that came to mind when you said "you love the artist but the art is bad" was kpop 😭 fans get super defensive when you say you don't like a certain song, especially when you don't stan the group. You're either called an anti or "you just hate fun songs"

[@bazzle.dazzle]

I think that's more because the fans are such a large community that there are bound to be more bad people within the genre. still not great though

[@sebrussell]

It definitely feels like things are swinging a bit further in that direction. When I was younger, I swear it was way more common when an artist changed their style for old fans to get pissy and talking about preferring the old them (which is a valid feeling, but some people started actively directing that venom at the artists and acting like it's a betrayal instead of just not buying their new stuff).

[@swirl..9727]

Accurate af, some kpop idols these days are entertaining to watch in reality shows but jeez not much to say once they're performing and dare I do say hell broke loose whenever fandoms see any criticism abt their favs' skills. Ik some fans maybe just have a way with words but I can't stand them naming our feelings if you just say they don't like their favs eg "they had the best discography & vocals ever! Argue with a wall" "if you don't stan blabla grp then your taste is bland" etc.

[@heiext]

right?? you could say "I don't like this song, it's too boring" and kpop fans will say you're miserable and have no friends

[@cassieopeaa]

@@heiext this is how it is being a swiftie now a days. i used to have a huge swiftie tiktok account and i posted something saying i didnt like her new bf more than her ex and i got my address leaked.

[@AikiraBeats]

This is something I’ve been noticing lately as I get older I start to question my loyalty to certain artist, especially when they have questionable behavior that seems to be on repeat. The level of delusion can be a high price to pay.

[@psyhense]

I feel like everyone cancelling, and believing accusations before they've found evidence is a much higher price. I've had a friend lie about being SA by another friend, and it can ruin lives when people believe it without question. The internet is the perfect place to allow it to happen. Worst of all, the people here doing it all have the best intentions, but let that "righteous justice" turn into vitriol and almost authoritarian attitude towards any who don't agree.

[@rigelestbit]

​@@psyhenseeven if certain allegations aren't true, don't you think being 60 and famous, dating your employee who is also a fan and not even half your age has some issues? I mean, both sides seem to have a weird story, but the power imbalance in this relationship is not right either way.

[@vexywexypoo]

I've weirdly avoided my favorite artists and creators being horrific pieces of garbage. Like, all these youtubers started to be revealed to be groomers, abusers, pedos, etc and the worst KZbinr drama from someone I watch was PopularMMOs getting thrown in jail bc his friend ran across a football field all oiled up so he couldn't be caught. I think my worst in general is Michael Jackson, and as far as I can tell, nothing about him was ever proven. Plus, he died before I even got into his music. I would add JK Rowling, but I stopped enjoying Harry Potter very quickly after I found out how horrifically transphobic she is.

[@KeevanNorton]

when you’re lining their pockets directly, no. that continues to enable them the funds to cover shit up and get away with it. if you want to own some of their work that you like then you should buy it second hand, that’s the best way to navigate that i feel (or just to not at all)

[@tankiegirl]

What about people who believe there is no ethical consumption under capitalism?

[@baka_yu9343]

Agreed, you don't have to throw away anything you already own if it's meaningful, but don't give them even more power by continuing to support their endeavours with your money and possible exposure online. There are so many other things out there not from the problematic person one can get into and invest in instead.

[@itchylol742]

piracy

[@GrungeGalactica]

Honestly once someones heinous actions are brought to light, it taints the whole listening watching experience. I don't understand how controversy sometimes helps/ doesn't hurt their success.

[@dani-888]

!!!

[@Konata333]

“I didn’t know she was 15 I thought she was 17 “😂😂😂😂😂

[@CesRaisons]

Ryan McMurphy kind of excuse

[@vexywexypoo]

She said she was 12!!

[@Lovix13]

the thing about other actors being brought down by their costars made me think about when the whole class gets in trouble because of one person

[@juliami3631]

Watching my favorite musical artist who created my childhood getting outed as a horrible human being is the worst feeling ever, I cat bring myself to listen to their songs anymore and seeing people still defending them gives me pure rage.

[@khoichuvids]

girl I know EXACTLY who u talking about

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

The question I always ask myself is "will they be making money through my interactions with their art?" If the answer is yes, then it's a hard no from me. (For context I live somewhere heavily associated with JK Rowling and somewhere where her views DIRECTLY impact me and the people I love - interacting with her products - especially the official ones - funds those views and Im.... not okay with that)

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

To clarify "Will they be making money through my interactions with their art?" = "Am I okay with my money directly funding their views/actions?"

[@EveloGrave]

I like this perspective a lot. Actors dont get paid royalties on movies, especially not DvD sales.

[@lindyloohoo]

I think the same, but i also put into consideration everyone else who worked on said project. Also im just one person. An extra 5 dollars to a billionaire is nothing

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

@@lindyloohoo true but if they're going to take it as tacit agreement to their views/actions I'm still going to try really hard not to give them my 5 dollars.

[@L0rdOfThePies]

I feel like Rowling has her hands on everything in England, probably because shes the richest person here. shes like her own influencer, i dont doubt she’s impacted few peoples views

[@Bruskibro]

I use to be a wilbur soot/lovejoy and the orion experience fan I fucking hate these peoples guts but fuck did i love their music. My initial reaction to both of these groups lead singers being pieces of shit was "Fuck you people Im gonna listen to them." "Seperate the art from the artist." "I cant help that they make good music" But then after like 2 days whenever i would listen to their music all i can think about is the controversy. The meaning of lyrics start changing from the meaning that i put on them to a realization of... oh they were always a piece of shit. The lyrics are right there. Then i cant Seperate the art from the artists and go thru a few months of seperating myself from a piece of media that ive grown so attached to. Its weird, its almost like i get parasocial with the music(not the artist) i get such an emotional connection to the music that whenever the singers bullshit gets brought up and i mentally cant support them anymore (even tho i so desperately want to) its like i go thru the 5 stages of grief. Like Lovejoy music use to be part of my daily routine. I couldn't start cleaning unless their music was playing. And when i blasted it i could clean everyday within 10mins Now i cant do shit and and clean my house every Saturday for hours. And with the orion experience, i still occasionally listen to "All dolled up" and "dionysus" And then feel like shit for still enjoying their media Edit: Also to people with adhd the reason you feel motivated to take on the world when listening to music is because music gives you dopamine. I loved love joys songs so much that it would release so much dopamine and give me the dopamine needed to get up and do shit. I would literally feel like what I imagine people who drink energy drinks feel like. (I wouldn't know cuz energy drinks put me to sleep)

[@notatroll6986]

i stopped listening to lovejoy even before wilbur got cancelled, it's such a pity because songs like concrete and perfume were so good. they still play in the back of my head sometimes from the first time i listened to them in 2021, but i can't listen to the band without thinking about the bad man who's singing those songs.

[@dovelynight]

ur so real. i was a fan of wilbur soot for like nearly 6 years?? and i didn't want to lose all those years i devoted to his content when everything came out but how can you separate the art from the artist when the artist is the art? his videos and videos he featured in were some of my favourite and in the playlist of videos to lift me up when i felt down and numb, it made me feel something good for once. but now it just makes me sick and i don't understand how people are able to continue supporting him, whether they're defending him or just "separating the art from the artist"

[@katieh_37]

if you can, maybe try to find a way to listen to the songs in a way that won’t make them money? i really get what you’re going through, and i think if it impacts you that much you should try to listen to them in a way that positively impacts them the least. maybe youtube lyric videos that aren’t posted by the creators? something that isn’t giving them specifically money or views

[@Bruskibro]

@@katieh_37 yeah Ive definitely downloaded their music illegally But it just doesn't feel the same anymore It's like the lyrics have new meaning and I don't like it

[@CesRaisons]

What did the orion experience do? I only know them by cult of dionysus

[@onceuponamelody]

The question also is, did the artist do a problematic thing, apologize, and never do that thing or any other problematic thing again? Then yes, I think if you can forgive them, it's possible. But it's VERY hard to find someone that's done that. 😂

[@liamfitzdrums]

Depends on the problematic thing tbf

[@wonkkwonkk2416]

probably bc a lot of the time it is on purpose and they just hadnt been caught yet

[@RAFMnBgaming]

@@liamfitzdrums idk like a guy who's a serial public urinator, in the grand scheme of thing that's not really all that problematic, but if he kept doing it then it'd be hard to read a book by him without thinking of it as "oh, this is by that guy that goes around whizzing on everything these days"

[@YOURISAWHAT_2841]

@@RAFMnBgamingthat’s such a random and specific example

[@RAFMnBgaming]

@@YOURISAWHAT_2841 well, again, it's hard to forget about it.

[@angelheartzz6350]

i also hate that most of the time the problematic artist creates amazing art and is so talented like azealia banks for example 💀 .

[@shyamy5792]

Wait, what did she do? 😭

[@OdyMandrell]

@@shyamy5792beefed with every single god damn person under the sun

[@shyamy5792]

@@OdyMandrell lmao 💀 no way 😭

[@sebrussell]

That's because when people who create mediocre stuff turn out to suck, people will drop them immediately. The better the artist, the more likely people are going to ignore their wrongdoings.

[@jovianmelendez]

​@@shyamy5792There's a video from Wendy Williams show where they have the names of the people she's beefed with scroll by the screen and there's SO MANY it's hilarious, one of them is literally a child and not even kidding, another one is a whole damn COUNTRY. A FUCKING COUNTRY. This woman beefed with a whole section of the world lmao 😭

[@CassidyUnderscore]

Personally I feel like there's nothing wrong with separating the art from the artist as long as you aren't using it as an excuse to support the artist while still trying to say you don't agree with them. Like people are gonna enjoy what they enjoy, it isn't their fault the artist is a bad person and it alone really shouldn't define their morals. I think looking at things from a black and white perspective is generally a bad mindset because the truth is almost nothing in life is black and white, it's up to each individual's own judgement if they want to enjoy art despite the artist or to discard it in spite of them.

[@jayemover_16]

This. Enjoying something and supporting the creator are two completely different things at the end of the day.

[@TheR6R6R]

Exactly. This is such a peeve of mine. Looking at it from another viewpoint, there is always cultural value to be gained from any artists' work, whether they are utterly despicable human beings or not. I'm of the opinion that no, you can't separate the art from the artist, simply due to how much of art is the artist's thoughts and passions made manifest. However, for it to be reduced to this binary dilemma where you either A) don't engage and save your conscience, or B) engage and enable the artists' crimes, is just annoying. It's not that difficult to learn from whatever good they've done. Humans are complex.

[@Blogmedyrt]

18:55 I think this is a really good point about the problematic thinking in fandoms. I have loved Taylor Swift’s Music and persona since I was a child. Her Music really means a lot to me but I should still be able to critisize her for her problematic behavior (like overuse of her privatjet and her apolitical use of her platform) without seeming blasfemic

[@RandomSwiftie13]

Swift personally staying apolitical is fine by me honestly because I don't really want her of all people to be talking about Israel-Palestinian conflicts and politics in general because she will get cancelled no matter what she has to say. And regarding the jet thing, the jet gets used/borrowed by other people as a commercial flight or for equipment supply all the time. She herself isn't the one using it for herself to travel all the time unless she is on tour.

[@wizard-lizard]

As a big TS fan myself, the fact that a lot of my problems from her come from her billionaire status means I'd prefer not to support her financially Beyond enjoying her music, but I overall agree! Although I feel like those controversies are less violent/ egregious than some other celebrity accusations, which makes a big difference to me.

[@NatashaRomanoffRoses]

@@RandomSwiftie13 You are proving OPs point. I still listen to her music but I left the fandom because you guys will always do the wildest mental gymnastics to defend her and not hold her accountable for anything.

[@RandomSwiftie13]

@@NatashaRomanoffRoses accountable for what? Not being an activist who constantly talks about politics? Because that's dumb.

[@swipe_til_you_snooze]

i mean you don't have to say anything on politics at all. you're not entitled to do that regardless of whether you're famous or not. she used to be pretty political back in her lover era, but maybe she isn't so much now because she got some backlash from it i think ???

[@wedgearyxsaber]

Im an electrical engineer and part of my job and degree study required me to take a course on engineering ethics. Theres alot of limitations we take place to 1) always improve the world or maintain, never destroy, 2) work in our field and never take part in fields we lack knowledge in (don't impersonate other engineering fields basically). Theres alot more to list but it would get long But ti put it shortly, its put me in a position where i take ethics and my money more seriously. I find appreciation of art is alright, but the idea if supporting any artist or content creator who has made a breach of conduct just sours me and ruins my interest in what they produce. I feel obligated to avoid and not support those who do harm to the world/ cause harm or disrespect others. Theres so much in thr world to enjoy, i can easily move over to the next. I'd also like to add, this forces me to judge companies who are unethical harshly. I will never work for a company found to be breaching the improvement of others' lives, any company in a scandal is one I would avoid to the point I would rather be unemployed than work for them.

[@ranisaurus]

I can't sepereate the art from the artist. Eveytime I consume something from that artist all I can think about are the bad things they've done or said and it makes me unable to enjoy their art.

[@leafisactuallyaplantyk]

As a 2000s emo kid who never grew out of that phase, it's been disappointment after disappointment as time goes on. I still listen to the songs I loved back then, but not new music from the problematic artists that are still around in the scene from that time. At least it's pushed me to discover new artists :")

[@RuneGoblin27]

absolutely, i was the BIGGEST fan of Falling in Reverse and then Ronnie went off the rails… im still incredibly unsure of the situation cuz theres so much crazy shit going on

[@leafisactuallyaplantyk]

@@RuneGoblin27 Fr, that was one of the most disappointing ones for me to find out about... Sometimes I miss the days where I didn't know English at all and would only listen to the songs my friend compiled into USB drives for me lol

[@alexmorado2182]

There's a certain limit. When you decide to act poorly to others is when you can't separate the art from the artist. We all have genuine struggles and biases. But when you're violent or take advantage of someone, that's the line.

[@Scipio0404]

An interesting point is that to know most of these controversies that come out at this point weekly you low key have to be chronically online. Like sorry random person on a site that I've listened to one singular song multiple times from this artist who then two weeks later turned out to be a bad person. How the hell was I supposed to know? I've got better things to do than meticulously scavange the internet for every artist I come across with.

[@blueghost4769]

I don't really have particular artists that i like, i mostly listen to random stuff. Even when i kinda like an artist i never follow them or news about them anywhere, so most of the time i genuinely don't know what they're like as a person.

[@baka_yu9343]

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I feel like this is more aimed at people that actively know something happened and are struggling if they can still enjoy that work after leaning what a POS the person is or not. As example, I used to like Harry Potter a lot, but JKR has tainted the entire thing so much for me that I cannot touch it again. Not just the new stuff, but the old one I wouldn't financially help he with either.

[@aurora_skye]

I've been thinking about this with the Neil Gaiman situation. I absolutely fell in love with Good Omens a year ago, and I love parts of the fandom and community. So, I still write fanfic for it, and I probably won't watch Season 3 on Amazon itself. Believe victims and support them! Thanks for making this video, Emily 🩷

[@Shampyon]

That's a particularly rough one for me. Been a fan of his work for almost my entire life. With a lot of artists the thing you hate about them is reflected in their work, e.g. Gender Stasi Wizard Woman's transphobia and disdain for shaking the staus quo (even in the name of civil rights) leaks into everything she writes. But I can't recall anything in Neil Gaiman's work, or even anything in any interview or social media post, that reflects the horrible things he's accused of doing. It's literally the kind of thing that only a villain in his work would do, actions that he'd portray as unequivocally wrong. It gets even more messy when there are a whole lot of other innocent people involved in making the art. Gaiman is a prominent part of the show, but there are literally hundreds of other people who poured their hearts and souls into making it. It's hard to figure out where I should place the most weight in order to figure out what is the right thing to do.

[@wizard-lizard]

I came here from just finding out about that tonight, and it's truly heartbreaking. I agree with your take on maybe pirating season 3 especially since the show is going to end after 3 anyways. It's pretty upsetting, especially knowing that he's tarnishing, what is generally such wholesome and accepting fandom/remembrance of his and Terry's work.

[@baka_yu9343]

My thought exactly. I feel bad for the other cast members, since they are doing actual amazing work to further causes, but it feels so icky to think to show that I'm fine with Gaiman benefiting from me after all of this came to light.

[@baka_yu9343]

@@Shampyon I feel bad for the current cast, for example (David and Michael continue to do a lot to further some causes) and I like to think that Pratchett's influence helped make the book/show as wholesome as it is. And as far as I'm aware, Joseph Fink is just a lovely person too. But yeah, I don't feel comfortable showing support in any way to Gaiman either.

[@Aceofspades2006]

Ok how I see it 1 they said it was consensual (that’s what I heard) but it’s still weird cus the age gap 2 there are others that profit of GO like good people 3 I think he’s has done more good then bad 4 he still needs to apologise and show us that he did the research and isn’t still dum*. But that’s my opinion I get that not all will agree.

[@Ghosting296]

I'm so glad that folk punk is my favorite genre most of the bands I listen to are small enough to where I don't have to worry about any scandals with them

[@SpindleSpook]

ooo do you mind listing some bands/artists you like? /nf /gen

[@gothgrrl8711]

small music communities are often even more embroiled in controversy though.

[@RandomSwiftie13]

A person doesn't need to become big in order to be problematic. They could still be problematic af even if they are small artists.

[@elpeluca7780]

​@@gothgrrl8711Idk tbh. I listen to death metal mainly and apart from a couple of known nutcases it seems that it's mostly chill, normal ppl. Not that there's a lot of info out there anyway

[@Chillwave6]

​@@SpindleSpook since nobody replied yet and i have the same genre as one, there's Dropkick Murphys, Fiddler's Green and The Dreadnoughts on my playlists mostly.

[@regunachapex7838]

"We love you Emily" we all say in unison

[@ikissgirls1111]

We love you Emily

[@emilyyyyyyyyyyyyys]

We love you Emily

[@azrise]

We love you emily

[@anomalousanimates]

We love you not-even Emily

[@smugmari]

bot

[@vvitch-mist20]

As a writer I can tell you 100% you can't separate the art from the artist as that piece of art is formulated from the artists' belief. Every piece of media is finished product of someone's core beliefs. You can learn a lot about someone based on what they create, and how they do it. It's why I get mad at people who put in minimum effort with their creations. It's right there, but you gotta know what to look for in media to be able to discern if someone is trying their best, or just putting anything out and just running on their name and reputation.

[@dxaviorsith5603]

I feel like I can write about ideas I don’t identify with in the slightest if I find them engaging or fun to play with creatively.

[@vvitch-mist20]

@@dxaviorsith5603 That's not what I mean. I mean whatever you write will have your beliefs baked into it bc that's who you are. Your beliefs can change, but your writing will always reflect what you believe, because art comes from who you are.

[@TitularHeroine]

​@@vvitch-mist20As a writer-artist, I can tell you this is 100% patently untrue. It *can*; it doesn't have to.

[@vvitch-mist20]

@@TitularHeroine I'm not fighting you in this, because you can tell when someone is racist and when someone isn't regardless if they try to hide it or not. It's about unconscious biases making it into your work. It's why sensitivity readers are recommended if you aren't in a culture you're writing about. Art comes from within. It's the within that will impact what shows up in your work, and when it comes to more negative beliefs they will show up intended or not.

[@jovianmelendez]

As a writer and avid reader I hate this very rigid logic and highly disagree, ESPECIALLY when it comes to literature. Critical thinking exists for a reason. You can consume content without agreeing with it and even consume it specifically BECAUSE you disagree with it. There is more than one way to consume art other than just consuming it to resonate with it. How confident really are you in your own moral strength if just reading or consuming content that might have ideas that combat it is enough to worry you about it weakening your morality? I'm not saying you HAVE to be ok with art made by bad people, I'm just saying that there's more to art than just "I like this because I agree with everything about it" sometimes interacting with a piece of art that challenges your views in itself is interesting and a good way to strengthen your own views. Even if they aren't views that you're specifically looking to challenge, you can read something and think critically of it and get value out of that experience.

[@junebug6010]

I feel like the only way you can ethically like look at art is if the artist is dead, cuz your money will not benefit them, and now the art is now not tied to the artist. The art may live on, but the artist is gone. The art is outside of their control. Otherwise, no, i don't think you can separate it as long as the artist lives and benefits from your appreciation, cuz they will use that money to do things to further their own goals, whatever they may be.

[@liamfitzdrums]

Even if they might not be dead, as long as they're not benefiting financially from it, it should be alright. A great example is the use of Rock n Roll part 2 by Gary Glitter in the stairs dancing scene in The Joker. Gary Glitter is well known for doing some horrendous stuff that I'm not going to go into rn. Initially, people were uneasy with the songs inclusion but, when they found out that he wasn't getting royalties because he sold the rights to it a long time ago, people were a bit less uneasy about it.

[@RAFMnBgaming]

@@liamfitzdrums Gary Glitter's still alive? That's a shame.

[@ineedanswers9192]

The thing is even if you can separate the art from the artist, I can’t in good faith give money or support someone who holds values I don’t agree with or are just vile people.

[@wizard-lizard]

I definitely can't separate the art from the artist. I have been thinking about my line with that for a while, and honestly I think my bar for supporting an artist is pretty low: someone who does not commit physical or verbal violence, particularly SA. If someone's only offense is saying something hateful that they have apologized for and they actively worked to remedy that harm, I can maybe forgive that , but someone who who uses their power to enact physical violence is not someone I want to support with my time or money. There are plenty of celebrities that walk the line in terms of how politically thoughtful or environmentally friendly they are that I don't cut out of my life (though I will continue to criticize those aspects of them like I would any other person), but anyone who consistently uses their platform for hate speech or chooses to hurt others doesn't deserve to be famous/successful/remembered in a world of millions of talented artists.

[@soupy_soup2]

I hate when people say “just separate the art from the artist” as if the artist isn’t directly benefiting from me consuming their work. The older I get the less time I want to spend consuming media by horrible people. The only time I think it’s justified is if the person is dead and is not longer receiving money. I will never understand how people can continue to give JK Rowling money when she’s made her views on trans people abundantly clear

[@jayemover_16]

Have you heard of piracy.

[@soupy_soup2]

@@jayemover_16 Yes I have thank you so much for the insightful comment

[@RandomSwiftie13]

Jk Rowling is also a holocaust denier mind you.

[@joevictor53]

I don't get it either. I was a massive Harry Potter fan in the 2000s. I still own every DVD of the movies and I remember buying so much Harry Potter stuff like games, Lego sets, t-shirts, toys, merch from Universal, etc. But I'm not supporting her shit anymore. She is a vile monster who is attacking people for simply existing. I know what I contribute is nothing compared to her billions and billions. But I'm still not going to be giving her any more knowing that she will be able to use that money to live comfortably and spend all her time bullying one of the few minorities that it seems is socially acceptable to bully and harass.

[@soupy_soup2]

@@RandomSwiftie13 Yeah I know lol

[@AllisonJayde14]

ive been listening to melanie martinez for years but since the SA allegations came out its been rlly hard to listen to her. ofc i believe timothy, but its rlly upsetting bc her music comforts me and has made me feel less alone and it low-key saved me. especially crybaby and k-12. i wish i could listen to hear without feeling guilt but its soo hard, i do not support her actions WHATSOEVER but i would love to be able to listen to her music.😕

[@itscc2004]

The thing is, we won’t know unless it goes to court. I’m not saying none of it happened, but these allegations have been debunked multiple times. It’s suspicious to me honestly how people will only bring this up when Melanie is about to release new music of do something big (like their movies). Timothy has come out multiple times herself and has debunked a lot of the allegations. Timmy is sadly also a known lier and keeps adding things on and making things up about what happened (for what I know about Timothy). Both of them were under the influence and it was Timmy’s idea, that doesn’t mean she can’t withdrawal consent. What I’m trying to say is: Timmy needs to take it to court if it’s this big and if she does end up providing false accusations and statements, Melanie could sue her for defamation. I understand your point, I just wanted to clear a few things up because people aren’t mentioning how Timmy herself has debunked these allegations and I think Melanie should’ve said something better instead of what they actually said, because it does come off in the wrong way. There’s a lot to take in when it comes to this situation and it does make me sad that one of my most favorite artists could’ve SA’d someone, but if we’re not looking at the whole story and it’s not being brought to court, we can’t just accuse someone unless they’re actually guilty by a court of law. And I know it’s sad that we may never be able to get the actual answer, but if people want to raise awareness about this sort of stuff, they need to bring it up not just when Melanie is doing something with her music and other times. Because again, it’s suspicious to me how they’ll forget about it until Melanie releases new music, goes on tour, or creates their movies.

[@HaleyMary]

The first person I thought of when I saw this title was John Lennon. Genius lyricist, guitar and piano player and singer, but he was horrible to his first wife Cynthia and their son Julian.

[@chalkandcheese1868]

At least he acknowledged this and grew up

[@violentbob]

If i feel uncomfortable consuming an artists content when i know they did something wrong or controversial i will not do it, if i don't feel uncomfortable even though i disagree with them i will keep consuming it. It's as easy as that. Most of the time it's the latter

[@nagiuhti]

I like the new format! You talk more freely and the sketches feel more impactful now that they are shorter. 😊 Keep on evolving! *Loves it* (In problematic fave voice)

[@notevenemily]

thank u :)))

[@thepunkmuppet]

I want to make a complete rundown of all the amanda wang lore because this woman is nothing short of multitalented

[@Shampyon]

My personal general rules for deciding if I can separate the art from the artist: 1. Does the artist currently benefit from me engaging with their work? 2. Is the thing I hate about the artist a part of the art? 3. Are there positive aspects of the work balancing or outweighing the negative? Some examples: HP Lovecraft was so racist I couldn't say his cat's name without triggering KZbin's hate speech filters. There's some of his bigotry in his work, but a lot of it can be interpreted in non-racist ways and it invented the genre of cosmic horror (beings so vast and strange the human mind can't even comprehend them and go insane trying). He's also long dead and gets no benefit if I read The Call of Cthulhu. I can read his work and enjoy it while also knowing that there are negative things in his work that should not have ever been considered acceptable. A lot of old Hollywood movies have a blend of outdated beliefs and values, and surprisingly forward thinking ones. The films also often have compelling characters and engaging situations. Some of the people who made them would be rightly cancelled today, but no shitty person benefits from me watching a 1950s farce or 1960s suspense film. Radfem Voldemort not only benefits from engaging with her work, she boasts that reading her books/watching her films proves you agree with her. Her bigotries are woven throughout her stories - bad or ridiculous women described as having "mannish" features, her narrative makes a civil rights activist's every belief and action into a joke, she literally wrote entire books about people faking marginalised identities and disabilities so they can rape and murder women. If I read the books as a kid, maybe the fantasy of going from overlooked underprivileged kid to the Most Specialest Boy Ever would appeal, but it doesn't resonate as an adult, and her detective novels made under the same name as a gay conversion therapist don't have any compelling characters for me to latch on to. Therefore I can't separate the artist from the art. Perhaps that will change when she's long dead, but with access to the best medical care on the planet I don't think that's happening any time soon.

[@Tail_sez]

Very well said, and with much more nuance than some of the top comments. A lot of my fandoms are made by massive companies with so many people working for them that chances are high that at least one of the leaders of the project will be involved in some scandal, or sexist, or something (Yuji Naka, creator of Sonic the Hedgehog was arrested for insider trading. Also Japan is a very conservative country, chances are a lot of the people who make my games could be raging misogynists.) I don't particularly care about what the creator has done unless supporting them directly funds that behavior (eg she who shan't be named and her transphobic views put on full blast through her characters), or if it is something truly atrocious. In which case, if I genuinely did like the media, I'll find a way to view it/play it without supporting the creator. I just don't believe that the art a monster creates is tainted by proxy, because of all the monsters that we do know about, there could be many more in hiding, and even someone who scrupulously researches someone before allowing themself to enjoy the art they made could still inadvertently support someone who commits bad acts on the sly.

[@herneychienverneryia4020]

💥THIS COMMENT💯

[@saoirse_miller]

this exactly, ESPECIALLY in reference to radfem voldemort. people talk about separating art from the artist in reference to her all the time and then turn around and say how they love the whole franchise, play all the games, own all the books and movies, create content promoting the series, own merch, and i'm like... you didn't separate jack sh*t.

[@l.n.3372]

​@saoirse_miller The problem is that HP meant a lot to many people growing up. They might not financially support the series anymore (I haven't bought a single HP product since book 7 came out lol), but they still can't erase their good memories of reading the books as a kid. To them, they're not financially supporting it anymore but they can't stop liking it if they legit liked it. And they can admit the author is awful yet still like stuff in the books that resonates with them. Many young girls grew up viewing themselves as a Hermione or a Luna. Those characters and many others are important to them.

[@elizawillis06]

It really depends for because modt of the times i can but there are a few exceptions

[@Rainy_Day_Daydream]

REAL

[@veronicaenoshima403]

same

[@autumnwillow2111]

imo the only time i can separate the art from the artist is if the artist is dead and is no longer directly benefiting from the support/streams like i still listen to david bowie sparingly, but i cant justify listening to BORNS or most artists that still thrive after causing others suffering bc as someone else said, there’s a billion other forms of ethical art out there to consume and spend your time and attention on

[@riggedtrees]

hey so what did david bowie do? edumacate me plz

[@saoirse_miller]

@@riggedtreeshe was accused of r-wording a 14 y/o. i think he wasn't charged with it, but a lot of people think he might've been guilty. im not entirely sure, it's hard to find stuff that's not just twitter uses ranting and i don't even have a twitter account to fact check them.

[@betwitched_nighthaven]

@@riggedtrees he was also pretty racist, iirc he kind of idolised hitler (said he was "the first rockstar" or something and fetishised asian women too. I used to love his stuff, but his song China Girl is weird

[@victowave7066]

Not Emily shading Ice Spice with the part of “Unproblematic artist with less than stellar art”.

[@spiritualdanger]

SPECIFICALLY w msi, I saw a tt earlier saying how they don't care and they'll buy the new merch 💥

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

Slightly tangential but when JK Rowling first started showing her true colours a lot of people used the term "death of the author" to explain the separation of art/artist and justify their continued interaction with her IP. The "death of author" is a critical/theoretical stance arguing against the practice of taking the author's/creator's explanation of the text as to gospel over opening up multiple avenues of interpretation through readers' interactions with it. In other words, it lets you say that, through your reading of the text, you interpret Harry as a trans ally despite what JK Rowling may say about him. It doesn't mean JK Rowling suddenly has nothing to do with the Harry Potter franchise at all.

[@jeremiekervella8860]

Can you explain what people find problematic about her? I didn't find anything transphobic in what she said, maybe I missed something.

[@GlassesBooksCookies]

@@jeremiekervella8860 I'd say her tweets about Imani Kalif and India Willoughby are a pretty good indication of her transphobic (and misogynistic) views.

[@Mar_Selcouth]

​@@jeremiekervella8860All her speach about trans women been sxxual abuser and predators? She defending the Taliban saying that at least they know what a woman is? Sweetheart, there's plenty of videos that explained this in detail, to make it easier for you for exemple Jesie Gender have one explaing it, you don't even need to search

[@l.n.3372]

That just means they used the wrong term tho. They meant separate the art from the artist. But death of the author has been used in context re HP for years. When JKR admitted she was "wrong to pair Ron and Hermione," for example, many saw it as death of the author cuz it goes against everything JKR used to say in prior interviews.

[@NushratNur]

I also think that nowadays, songs have become extremely dated and personal, we know exactly who and what they're talking about. In such cases, it's harder to quite separate the art from it's artist because it's such a direct correlation. A recent example of somewhat timeless pop music is billie's new album, where it's easy to connect it with her own experiences and yet, the songs still stand on their own because she communicates her feelings rather than noting down literal incidents. artists like taylor swift, olivia rodrigo and especially rappers' music is just melody slapped on real life.

[@NushratNur]

Like Ariana's 'yes, and?' is such a perfect example. no matter how much you love her songs, that one is a direct product of her problematic actions and you can't possibly separate the art from the artist there. Thank you for listening to my rant but yeah.

[@Rats_N_Roses]

As someone who listens to a lot of older music, I've really accepted most people were pieces of shit. I hate digging into an artist and finding everything they've done wrong but I've accepted it, I can't change it, their art brings me joy so I see no reason in having to stop listening to it. I can think they're a horrible person and that the music they make is beautiful and inspiring.

[@numnut154]

The moment someone finds out an author, musician, actor, etc. has done or is actively doing things to harm other people, they make a judgement call. They either say "I'm okay with contributing to a pedophile/abuser/rapist/murderer/scammer/bigot," or they say "I'm can't morally and ethically support a person like that." Those who make the former choice absolutely deserve to be judged on what they normalise by supporting horrible and often criminal people, what you tolerate as a person is reflective of you.

[@lordlardclogs1081]

14:23 a popular example of this rn is brittany broski and cody ko. so many people in her comments saying she is problematic for not speaking more on that MAN'S problem. it is so sad.

[@randomspider725]

I think like you said, it’s harder for collaborative efforts, especially if the problematic person was in a position of power (like a producer or director). And if the person in question is deceased, the money isn’t going to them specifically. BUT there are instances (like novels) where only one person is calling the shots and they are a POS and should not be given a platform. I don’t mean book-banning, but I do believe in not giving financial support via purchases or even discussing their work as something to be celebrated. Because by talking about it, it remains in the cultural zeitgeist. And let’s be honest here, when it comes to books, there is ALWAYS something better in the genre that was made by someone less sh*tty. ALSO, I once saw a comment that really shifted my view on things: if a story can inspire a person to do good things, then the opposite is also true. So stories with bigotry baked into them (and don’t argue with those ideals) shouldn’t be supported because of the harm they represent. Saying, “Sure, it may have fatphobia, transphobia, racism, and blatant antisemitism, but I can look past those things” feels like complacency. “It doesn’t hurt me personally, so why should I care?” And sure, one could argue that bad people can make good art, but what about bad people who make bad art that just so happened to get famous? Those are the worst IMO, because there’s no defense for them except for the fact that they were at the right place and the right time.

[@Gyarukeir]

honestly you only speak facts i never realized how much of a chance i have with like my favorite artist since im 16 it feels so odd how many groomers are famous artists i feel disgusted

[@Phosfit]

This isn’t just for celebrities. It’s for peers and coworkers as well. If someone brings you cupcakes at work, you’ll excuse their bad behavior so long as you benefit.

[@Hatsune-Miku_Fan]

20:58 i put that thing on his waaang wutwutttt

[@STARXSTARMUSIC]

😭😭😭😭

[@rubies_makhanya]

My sister used to say this about Drake's music because he has always had a known history with minors but after the beef more dirt about Drake came out and she herself has said that she finds it extremely difficult listening to drake without having a feeling of disgust. It's like the R Kelly effect. He has good music but you just cannot remove the disgust you have when listening to his music

[@TamagoSenshi]

As someone who bought every Lostprophets album before the truth was revealed about their singer, yes, you can, as long as the art doesn't relate or seem to relate to the reason you have to separate them. I can listen to any of their songs other than Can't Stop Tomorrow, which very much sounds like he's taunting victims

[@Soggy-vd7op]

wake up babs, Emily uploaded

[@LM-spam1]

Not even Emily

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

my name is not Barbara. how dare you?

[@staryskyzzz]

i DIDDD!!!!!

[@-NoraaroN-]

Sonic pfp

[@Kazuma_kiryu311]

Ayyyeee (also I love your pfp)

[@uchihabomber1296]

It is interesting how this came out the same day Kanye's new album also released too

[@maggiepie8810]

I love your skits, they help lighten the mood when you discuss otherwise heavy topics.

[@keikoyamamoto4313]

How many “unproblematic” artists even are there? I feel like there are probably more that have done questionable things than not. Of course there are degrees, but that doesn’t mean that if one started crossing people who’ve made strange remarks or caused harm off the list, they would cross off a large chunk of the industry. Also considering that often, artists’ problematic behavior isn’t uncovered till later, I would expect the number of problematic artists to be even higher.

[@user-br3ty9rt1m]

Agreed 💯

[@judasdubois]

This one is always hard because like most of the time you like the thing before finding out the person behind it is awful. Like I enjoyed a lot of kevin spacey movies before the allegations came out, and its super hard to watch him in movies act like the exact kind of person those allegations allege he is. With authors I think its sadly easier because outside of the name on the book jacket you can almost forget who they are until they open their stupid mouth and say something really dumb.

[@maviebaby]

I have been subbed for a couple of years now, and I have to say... your sketches are getting funnier and funnier. When that Amanda Wang "single" played, I was drinking, and literally had a spit take.

[@catieharlow1680]

i relate a lot more to artists that are kind and genuine bc it reflects in their art! personally don’t feel good supporting problematic people, but it’s okay to be cordial when surrounded by them

[@fermentedstrawberry]

the song at the end making me laugh my ass offfff 😭

[@imbadatdis]

i honestly cant separate them even how hard i try...everytime the artist i love did something horrible it will be a long struggle for me

[@SillyWolfGuy]

Yes in certain scenarios, especially if it doesn’t give them money. Ex: reading books from a certain not so great author that you already own, it’s fine.

[@keyarrma]

another thing about separating art from the artist is that so much art is SO personal that it really just can't be separated? like many of jk rowling's biases are spelled out in the harry potter books themselves and they become much harder to reread knowing how insane she's become now - this is probably on a lower level for music and film but it could still apply

[@_King0]

You're spoiling us these days with so many videos ❤😩

[@sandsan9838]

art is a form of expression. and who expresses the art? the artist. and their expression comes from how they view life, their experiences, and what they want to put out into the world. so separating art from the artist is never possible. i cant imagine how someone would create art without putting some of themselves in it.

[@KillerCarmen]

as an ex wilbur soot fan this video offered a good new perspective for me

[@starrydustbunnies]

lately this is something that has been weighing on my mind heavily and i really do agree with you on everything you said. i don't listen to most of the artists you mentioned, but i am (was?) a huge fan of rina sawayama and her collaboration with paris hilton and her literally blocking her fans on social media really put me off listening to her music. even bts, who've been my top artist consecutively, including the solo members, since 2019, have left a bitter taste in my mouth because of their continuous association with z*ionist artists and their complete silence on the who scooter braun fiasco, and some of the members endorsing brands that profit from the gen*aside. chris martin's "send love to is*rael" also made me basically block off coldplay from my music. i think i can't morally afford to live in the same bubble that i guess most people live in because of which they can easily "separate the art from the artist."

[@cesaralejandropintoleal8129]

I think an important question to make as well is: can we separate the art from its consumers?

[@saoirse_miller]

yes, this exactly, too

[@gyuzzrt]

the point you make in 17:45 reminds me so much of people attacking others for not liking A SONG

[@duckysguidetoshipping8930]

In my personal opinion I cannot as I listen or engage in that content I keep thinking of what they did

[@emimew]

Thank you for talking about this. I had a discussion like this recently at a family event where my uncle said he liked Picasso.

[@xist2inspire613]

Really, this is more of a symptom of economics more than it's a moral issue. "Separating the art from the artist" is easy, all you have to do is not hold the artist in higher regard than what they created. After all, if you like the art for its own sake and not just because you like the person who made it, then why would it be hard to do? However, literally every aspect of our economic and social reality practically demands that we make gods out of people who make "good" or beneficial things, artificially elevating them above not just other artists, but their own art. Even if we were to cancel every problematic artist today, we'd immediately apply our toxic mindset towards content and their creators to the "good" creators we would be left with, thus giving them a newfound social cover to make indulging in their own personal demons much easier, and thus more likely. Or, we'd just wait until the bad people are dead to ravenously consume their work, because "Hey they're dead now, so I can now totally consume the work that I now can confidently argue is totally free of their negative influence!" (An argument that I didn't support when they were alive and able to profit from it), even though one quick knowledge check on the background of the artist will reveal the inspiration/context behind their art. When R. Kelly dies and can no longer profit from his songs in any way possible, will it suddenly be "okay" to listen to the many love/sensual songs he made about a minor? And if so, how come money's the only deciding factor in whether that level of disassociation is acceptable? Again, this is an economic issue, not a moral one, and it's disingenuous and dangerous to conflate the two (especially in a world where practically everyone in a first-world country/economy is absolutely and undeniably guilty of sacrificing their morals for whatever quality of life they have, regardless of whether they know it or not). Also, we have to stop letting bad faith actors drive conversations. It is painfully easy to see when someone's using "Separate the art from the artist" as a way to handwave away, justify, dismiss consequences for, or even show support for the awful actions or beliefs of said artist. People literally aren't even trying to keep the masks on anymore, so can we please stop treating their "defenses" as if they're a legitimate argument for or against? We can't even get to the high-level question of how best to balance morality with economic reality because we're too busy arguing with people who don't think that any of this bad stuff is wrong at all, and having existential crisises on whether or not our consumption technically puts us on the same side as the opps. It would be so much easier to hold people accountable for their bad/criminal behavior if we didn't automatically equate "fan" with "stan." Because ultimately, while boycotting Chris Brown directly affects his profits, thus affecting his ability to spend on legal defense, it doesn't directly put him in jail. What does put him in jail is direct and continued public pressure and awareness brought to his actions, and unwavering support for his victims (even if there may be problematic aspects to them). Same with Rowling. Do you really think she cares if you don't buy her stuff if you're still just a lukewarm trans "ally"? No, she'd be far more pissed if support for trans people continued and grew over her lifetime, even if she became the richest person in all of Europe in that same timeframe. Problematic rich people don't care whether you think they should be rich or not, they care when you don't agree that what they are doing is right/justified, and they will use being rich as the reason why you should be okay with what they say/do. At the end of the day, we have to be able to say that certain things are wrong, and not let the level of support or money involved change that. If we can't do that, then we're doing exactly what the people doing those bad things want us to do, because it's our inability/hesitation to call it out and not stop that gives them the ability to continue on, not the profits they make.

[@iZAYYYYYYY]

girl i js wanna say u are so philosophical and whenever you post it makes me so happy so ty ily emily

[@altounedited3]

Also with Nicki Minaj from earlier this year when she said something about Megan the stallions deceased mother I was like “Nicki wtf. That’s not right at all and I hate that you said that.” But I still like her music

[@maddiegotcha]

I'm so glad someone finally made a video about this I've been thinking about this for so long.

[@carolinejohnsonn]

girl i was just watching your videos a few minutes ago😭 thank you queen

[@hellod4036]

I haven’t finished watching the video (and will have to finish watching later), but seeing this video on my feed right after I was looking at Melanie Martinez allegation videos was amazing on KZbin’s part.

[@Vampirepup_edits]

Your skits are the fucking best I'm dying here 😂 It also has to be said that I am someone who enjoys quite a wide variety of music,and many of the artists I like are problematic in some way . But as long as their shitty behaviour isn't being put into their music i think its still okay to listen to . If someone is singing about SA and stabbing people to death then yeah im obviously gonna avoid it because that's fucked up . Unfortunately the older i am getting(I'm 22) the more I'm beginning to drift away from stan culture because of how toxic and problematic it is . I no longer call myself a swiftie because the way some people in the fandom act is plain insane particularly since the whole Travis thing,so many people are just obsessing over them getting married and having kids and i never liked Travis so I'm not here for that and don't want to be associated with it . There are many other controversial things I could say about Taylor but i do believe she is all round a good person and has done a lot to help people over the years . (There's still plenty to criticise her for too don't get me wrong ) but in comparison to a lot of other mainstream artists i think she's not that bad . But yeah stan culture is something i don't really like to get involved in anymore cos of shit thats happened to me in the past being in certain fandoms and whatnot 🙃 At the end of the day,i think it's fine to idolise people,as they can play a big part in some people's personal journeys and recovery/therapy . Just be careful you don't get too attached and become blind to people's bad morals or actions

[@EleiyaUmei]

"If someone is singing about SA and stabbing people to death then yeah im obviously gonna avoid it because that's fucked up ." I hope you're not a Rammstein fan.

[@Vampirepup_edits]

@EleiyaUmei I'm not lol

[@bailey9750]

GOD YEAH thank you for bringing the perspective of people who work in these industries!! I've worked on a film where no one had a say in one of the actors being cast because of the casting company/network and literally no one on set got along with him and disagreed with him on pretty much everything because he was a shitty person. At the end of the day, the people who aren't bigger names are just trying to work to make rent and turning down a job could mean you can't pay bills. In industries where there are so many people coming together to make art, it's really difficult to single one person involved out.

[@katethevampire]

1:30 bro I've been thinking about gravity falls so much recently that when I heard Northwest my immediate thought was Pacifica I am cooked

[@Maren_Arts]

so real.

[@grass_l0ver]

A few of mine are McCafferty and Mindless Self Indulgence and Hole. Its crazy how many people are amazing artists with awesome music and get into so much controversy. 2024 feels like the most craziest tear so far with all of these allegations coming out about celebrities and music artists.

[@nolav9280]

Yay! I ditched sleeping for this!

[@Vindominus]

W

[@jmarshal]

I’d love to see you do a video on K-pop Stans and parasocial relationships with that media.

[@starstatic]

i love ur content never stop making it 😭🙏🙏

[@alisha9197]

I have a masters in Art History and yes you can seperate the art from the artist in academics we do this all the time but its all about the frame. When you're talking about materials for example who made it rarely is important. But when we are talking about personal experiences it is super important who is the artist

[@edensorbit]

i really am NOT happy about the rina sawayama situation she called out racism and then worked with a KNOWN racist person, not to mention, she also collaborated with min heejin which has KNOWN contorversies

[@thisisnotausernameXD]

I have to preface this by saying I'm not a Paris Hilton fan and am well aware of the controversies surrounding her but afaik, all of that is from over a decade ago and since then the abuse she suffered in her adolescence has come to light and she seems to be actively working towards having those types of schools shut down. Not to mention how shitty 2000s media was towards famous women of that time. It's still possible that she is still a racist, homophobe behind closed doors and she hasn't really apologized for her previous actions. But it's also possible that she has grown as a person and changed since then too. All that to say that I'm not sure where I stand on her and Rina working with her isn't the worst thing to have happened in this tumultuous year.

[@edensorbit]

@@thisisnotausernameXD i totally agree with you

[@hunterjuarez883]

I used to always say yes to this question, but these last few months is making it extremely challenging.

[@ellasorrow4stolas445]

Melanie Martinez is a good example of cancel culture doesn't work because a lot of her stans will fight with you on how innocent she is. I think she is guilty and shouldn't have a career.