Can You Wire An Electric Vehicle Charger To An Existing Cable?

[@sergiofernandez3725]

I definitely agree with going for a larger cable than is currently required. I would then consider running it through some ducting that is at least 4 or 5 times larger than the cable thus allowing for future cables maybe even pipes. Think in a day of tomorrow you may have some form of power generation happening on or in that outbuilding which you want to export back to your main building. Solar PV or wind turbine

[@TheEulerID]

I'm planning on putting in 5 core SWA for 3 phase myself, although large ducting is a useful backup. Three phase would allow a 21 kW charger and a couple of locals do have 3 phase.

[@jameslawrie3082]

I ran 6mm SWA 6 years ago to a garage before I thought I’d have an EV. I wish I’d gone for 10mm now. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@dead.format]

That garage board does have capacity for a third way. The 2 half blanks on each end come out to facilitate a third circuit - by design that is, not a bodge. Not that that's relevant but worth a mention!

[@jacko791]

Any chance that you could do a video discussing the benefits/issues involved in adding a 16A commando socket to run a charger? Seems like for most people 16A would give them enough capacity to get an overnight charge for about £1000 less than a 7kw charger but it doesn't seem to be discussed much

[@geraldelwood9660]

If you mean to plug the car lead into the commando; what about Open PEN fault. Certainly not putting my name on that EIC!

[@MorzakEV]

Yeah, all the aspects of BS7671 still need to be met for ev charge points, which wouldn’t be that much cheaper. I don’t think the difference is £1000 either unless you’re comparing it to the premium products

[@alerighi]

​@@geraldelwood9660 A socket of that kind is not something specifically usable for car chargers and thus you can install it. If the customer then plugs in a car charger it is its responsibility. But in reality why a car charger is more of a problem in case of a broken neutral than any other class I appliance you use outside? Also, are PEN faults all that common? And if they are, instead of having to use expensive devices, wouldn't be simpler to put an earth rod and have a real earth electrode and ditch TN-C-S? That is what we do in our country, is not that expensive and it's the best option, not only in terms of safety but because, and especially nowadays with the ton of electronic equipment, switching power supply, etc having a real ground is better for EMI filters and avoiding interferences.

[@Satters]

not all supplies are TN-C-S, there's no need for PEN fault protection on TN-S, plus there is always the option of creating a TT arangement for the BS(en)60309 socket

[@MorzakEV]

@@Satters Actually, on a lot of TN-S supplies are being converted to PEN conductors further down the line. The regs state that if its a TN-S, you need to get written confirmation from the DNO that it will never be converted to a PEN - which basically isn't going to happen - I've never seen an instance of this. TT is always an option as you say, and desirable sometimes in outbuildings, but again, this isn't always practical because of the ground conditions etc.

[@edwardpickering9006]

Never mind older detached garages... The new build I just bought had the detached garage connected off the downstairs socket ring main!!! ;-(

[@LeighWinspear]

just wow

[@TheEulerID]

My 1992 (ish) built house has exactly the same, and there's about 14 metres of 4mm^2 SWA connected as a spur from the back of a double socket. That's an appalling bit of space saving. When I decorate the room with the CU it's going to get its own dedicated circuit. I think that 4mm SWA is rated for more than 32A, but a 20A circuit would be fine for my needs anyway. If (when) I get an EV that's going to be a separate buried cable, but I guess I can't blame a builder not anticipating EVs 30 years ago.

[@robertsadler1916]

The bubbler put air into the septic tank I think.

[@efixx]

Spot on!

[@Fishbait075]

Or, potentially the easiest solution. A simple granny charger. Admittedly a lot slower, but a solution non the less.

[@anthonyschofield7807]

Surely better advice would be to install a duct to the outbuilding,who knows what’s coming in the future and may require a cable not yet made?

[@Clark-Mills]

That's what I would do, run a large diameter "drainpipe" for unknown future services... (network, solar, pumped sewer, water, power, gas, fibre, alarm...) Though certified depth, warning-tape above the pipe and shared services may be an issue.

[@JasonEDragon]

If you are going to spring for outdoor conduit then by all means do yourself a favor and spring for some tough conduit. I put in some cheaper stuff and then found out years later that it was crushed when a heavy truck came onto my driveway.

[@johnmckay1423]

A thicker cable is well worth it - the time spent digging a trench is way more expensive than any cable you could put in it. For that reason.... for the love of God put in some conduit. The 150mm conduit I put in between my house and garage is probably overkill, but at least I know I won't be digging any more trenches!

[@TheEulerID]

5 core SWA as well to allow for future three phase...

[@stephencoulthard1718]

Always out a Duct if digging at all makes it easy for the next cable, can always use Point to Point links for Internet / WiFi links

[@Rehoboth-Solutions]

The whole thing is ridiculous. Great video.

[@thomasmcclennon9738]

Now this is only what I thought but I always thought if wiring a supply to a new built garage you would use 10mm² or 16mm² S.W.A. cable and a 40A circuit breaker to supply it. I don't know if I'm right or wrong here.

[@TheEulerID]

When I put in cabling for an EV charge point to my detached garage, I'm going to run in a 5 core 6 mm^2 cable to allow for a three phase upgrade. I'll get an external CU in place, and sort out another bugbear of mine. The cheapskate builder back in the 1990s wired the garage up from the back of a socket in the ground floor ring rather than put in a dedicated circuit (a garage CU with 16A and 6A breakers has been installed). It's on 4mm^2 SWA, so I'll get the electrician to move that circuit to the new external CU which comes up conveniently, very close to the meter cupboard and where the external CU would go. A couple of external LAN cables will go through a separate duct as well. I have to do some garden redesign anyway. So it's a matter of digging a 600 mm trench which will be about 17 metres. If 3 phase can be provided (which might be possible - I know a couple of locals with it), then that might make a 21 kW 3 phase charger a possibility. Then there's ample power for any future heat pump too. No point in skimping on cable.

[@ant71989]

Is it OK to bury conduit as a consumer in preparation for a possible future outdoor circuit? Or or does that need to be done by an electrician / approved by building control?

[@TheEulerID]

You can certainly install ducting yourself, but be aware that it will have to be smooth and large diameter for SWA cable. Also, you'll want to run some sort of pull rope too. Technically there isn't a minimum depth, but 450mm is usually considered to be the least, and 600mm might be better in some environments. Also, I personally don't like data and mains cables in the same duct, but that's maybe by telecoms background. Personally I would run data cables in a separate duct in the same trench. Perfectionists will also put a warning tape in the partly filled trench above the duct, but that may be overkill for a domestic setting. However, it's very cheap, so why not? Bear in mind that SWA has a minimum bending radius of 6 times the overall diameter for up to 16mm^2 cable. So a 3 core 10mm^2 SWA cable, which is about 20mm in diameter has a minimum bending radius of 120 mm, and I would certainly use shallower bends than that if possible. Also, it's best to bed and cover the ducting in sand before filling. You can run the cable yourself if you like, as long as it is the correct specification, and it's easier to do that when the ducting is installed. The electrician will test the cable anyway for impedance and insulation. Note that the cable has to be SWA unless the ducting provides mechanical protection (which nobody is going to install in a domestic property). A few photos of the installation would not come amiss.

[@anthonyschofield7807]

Also what’s a bubbler😀?

[@steveosshenanigans]

If your thinking about the future when doing a renovation You could run a conduit under ground say around 50mm diameter with a couple of draw wires For later use

[@efixx]

A great solution

[@Mladjasmilic]

That is why I run to my garage 3 phase cable at 4 sqr mm, that can sustain at least 20A load. At 16A, 3 phase is 11kW.

[@deang5622]

I don't think so. 11 kW at 16 Amps is a phase to phase voltage of 487 volts. At a nominal phase voltage of 230 volts in a 3 phase system, the phase to phase voltage is 400 volts. So unless you are running on electrical system where the phase voltage is greater than 230 you are not going to get a phase to phase voltage of 487.

[@posei3960]

I've never seen mention of oversizing cables so the I^2R losses are reduced...just saying

[@deang5622]

If you want to save money on wasted electricity, and given the current high price per unit and which is likely to go up in the near future again, then why not?

[@jameslawrie3082]

Is 6mm SWA able to handle 32A? I already have 6mm SWA.

[@efixx]

Yes in most cases but would depend upon length = volt drop

[@jameslawrie3082]

It’s 25m long so could be a voltage drop. I installed it 6 years ago simply for a two gang socket in the garage and an 40w led light batten running off a mini consumer unit.

[@glynn36]

Brilliant. You answered all my questions. Looks like a very slow 3pin charger for me. 😕

[@thattoolguy9432]

As soon as you mentioned bubbler it brought back a rather smelly memory.. really good video Gordon.. it's a good subject as not everyone needs a full 7.2kw charger i think phev are going to more popular for the time being until prices come down, lot smaller batteries less charge time... do you know of any charge points that don't need internet connection ? it's for an off grid project

[@efixx]

Thanks Torchy - Quite a few chargers will work without internet - e.g Zappi - but laws are changing - yes laws not regs - stay tuned.

[@thattoolguy9432]

@@efixx Thanks, i had heard through the grapevine things will be changing , i'm assuming its to give the DNO the right to limit charging as demand picks up? i know Australia are doing something similar, wouldn't surprise me in the near future if they add a tax per mile due to loss of revenue at the pumps

[@anthonyschofield7807]

@@thattoolguy9432 But how would they kn

[@anthonyschofield7807]

Know unless as hinted internet connection becomes mandatory but the granny charger is just another 13 amp appliance

[@LeighWinspear]

Its to tax you per mile driven. Thats just for starters.....

[@pete98715]

yep my bubbler is in the shed!

[@seandempsey7351]

All to complicated, why if they have the technology to make rechargeable mobile phone battery and battery for power tools without any of hazel why can’t they make EV chargers with all that hazel . But that’s way too easy. There first thought is how to con and rip off the consumer, but who am I to argue i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing.🤣 Great video With some clear advice as always Gordon 👍👍👍❤️

[@efixx]

It’s good work for electricians 👍

[@seandempsey7351]

@@efixx now that I have to agree with. I think whatever peoples opinions are we can’t say it not interesting.and it certainly is good work for electricians, if that’s what they want to install. 👍

[@Harold_Shand]

I'm interested in your opinion, how would you solve the EV charger problem?

[@seandempsey7351]

@@Harold_Shand if they can make mobility wheel chairs and scooters with high capacity battery’s and a chargers that plug into a standard 13amp socket outlet then they they can use the same technology for EV chargers, my late father in-laws mobility scooter had a twenty mile range and took 8 hours to fully charge the battery, the charger was about the size of a box of chocolates and plug Ed into a 13amp socket. Also E Bikes some have a 50 mile range and can do 40or 50 mpa and yes plug into a 13amp socket to recharge the battery. All with out any problems or the DNOs taking control

[@Harold_Shand]

@Sean Dempsey There already are EV chargers that plug into a 13 amp socket- granny chargers I believe they are referred to. The thing is, a lot of people will want/need faster charging times, especially if they have a reasonable commute everyday. I don't think there is any scam or con behind it, just physics.

[@gino2465]

As normal great topic. Ok I for my own reasons need an ev car charged and so the options you mentioned really would not suit my needs like load limitations. My car has a 62kw battery and takes near 8 hours to charge when say at approx 20% . And it needs charging 5 days a week to allow range . So everyone is different and what they need. In your installation they done the right thing as battery's are becoming larger which means longer charge times

[@jamesmaybury7452]

Don’t run a cable, run a cableway, things change.

[@iancoles1349]

Yes

[@peterconnolly4608]

Best option stick to fuel and create no extra burdens on electricians daily work , and network supply ,

[@efixx]

Genie 🧞‍♀️ is out of the bottle on EV

[@dadjv1926]

Sparkys will welcome the work. EVs use less power per mile than it takes to refine, transport, store and pump the equivalent amount of petrol/diesel. Far more efficient use.

[@peterconnolly4608]

@@dadjv1926 only bigger problem is can the network cope and where the end product lands up in ,

[@Clark-Mills]

Bubbler... Hydrogen &/| oxygen generator?

[@efixx]

Judy air for sewage treatment

[@cj-rb8fz]

Rcd feeding a rcd 🤔🤔

[@deang5622]

The RCD in the EV charger does not protect against a fault between the consumer unit and the EV charger. So an RCD in the consumer unit provides protection for that part of the circuit

[@cj-rb8fz]

@@deang5622 I’m aware of what the rcd protects , but you don’t normally put 2 rcds on the same circuit as they cancel each other out

[@deang5622]

@@cj-rb8fz No they don't cancel each other out. It's usual to use a delayed RCD. When you say they cancel each other out, I presume you mean that they both fail to operate. Explain how that actually happens.