Debating the Eucharist // Cameron Bertuzzi vs. Matt Fradd

Matt Fradd and I had an informal debate a couple years ago on the Eucharist that was released to our respective patrons. We talked and thought it was time to release it to the public. Enjoy!
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#Eucharist #Catholicism #Debate

[@danielpascoe4287]

I'm grateful to Protestants for getting me back in Church after my life fell apart. However all research points to the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ. I was totally anti-Catholic at the time but the truth of it couldn't be denied. Now sharing in the Fullness of Christ in the Eucharist is the single most important part of my faith.

[@ReyWho]

Come out of mystery babylon and join the Oriental Orthodox Church. The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

[@anthonybui4622]

Welcome home

[@jonageskuland]

Totally disagree, my friend! If a believer gets into a coma, he is just as much blessed, close to God, loved, under Gods grace, forgiven and welcommed by God, even though ho does not take the eucharist. Those who became believers through Paul received forgivness of sins, recived the Spirit, experienced miracles etc by believing. Galatians chapter 3 is very clear on this. Paul does not mention baptism or the eucharist at all, as he talks about receivi g gifts from God. He only mentions "the hearing of the Word/Gospel, and believing it", as the way to receive from God. Even in Corinthians Paul says that "God did not send me to baptize" !! Which underminds a big chunck of the chatolic view of all the sacraments. Because it clearifies that FAITH comes before baptism. Baptism does not infuse faith into a person, as the catholic church teaches. As Paul says in Rom 10, "faith comes by hearing"....not by means of eucharist, baptism, marriage, confession etc

[@bradleesargent]

Welcome home to the one true holy apostolic catholic church founded by Jesus Christ

[@bradleesargent]

@@ReyWho which orthodox church, Russian, Antiochan, Greek or Roman

[@cactoidjim1477]

It's weird for God to be bread and wine, but then again, it's weird for God to be a Jewish carpenter.

[@albusai]

the thing is that he is not bread , nor becomes bread , he left , and next time he comes will be riding the clouds , as daniel the prophet said in daniel 7:13-15, and Jesus said inmatthew 26:64--66

[@cactoidjim1477]

@@albusai It's weird to ride on clouds, too. The fact that all of those things are weird, or hard to understand, is not a reason for or against the topic at hand (Eucharist)

[@mr.molina8008]

The Bread of the Presence is found in the OT

[@thewalruswasjason101]

@@cactoidjim1477 it’s weird to me that people think we are by products of protplasmic goo that exists on a planet with the necessary blend of conditions ( necessary for life to exist. Oh yeah, and it popped into being from nothing. That’s weird to me. With considerable security, therefore, we can draw the conclusion that even with a hundred billion trillion stars in the observable universe, the probability of finding, without divine intervention, a single planet capable of supporting physical life is much less than one in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. The odds actually are higher that the reader will be killed by a sudden reversal in the second law of thermodynamics.{387} HABITABLE

[@erravi]

Lol!

[@nooneinparticular2968]

I love both of these guys and subscribe to both channels. I'm a Southern Baptist and came into this expecting to agree most with Cameron, but I found Matt's argument more compelling. Lots to think about here.

[@PatrickSteil]

Former Methodist here. God bless you on your journey!

[@PatrickSteil]

Catholic now and I feel closer to Jesus than ever because he is real and alive and tangible. Mass is amazing! I go several times per week if I can.

[@George-ur8ow]

Converted from being an Independent Baptist to Orthodoxy about a year ago. 98% of what Matt said here is applicable to Orthodoxy, as they were together for the first 1,000 years. After I had converted, I was amazed to read the following: the last prophet of the old testament, Malachi, and the prophecy if the new testament church: "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 1:11) Which churches burn incense in honor of the name of the Lord today? What is this "pure offering" that is being spoken of that was to come?

[@PatrickSteil]

@@George-ur8ow Catholic Church does on certain higher Holy days. I’m assuming Orthodox does also. I became Catholic when half the Methodists started to justify homosexuality with Scripture. Then I finally realized why we need an authoritative church.

[@hacker4chn841]

Come home friend! If you have more questions, check out Catholic Answers and Trent Horn.

[@sillysyriac8925]

When this debate first aired last year, I was convinced of Cameron’s view. . . Funny that I’m totally on the opposite side of this issue now!

[@dwong9289]

Thanks be to God 😇🙏

[@stcolreplover]

Amen

[@cactoidjim1477]

I found the historical record to be the strongest argument. It is really weird that Orthodox and Catholics have a (mostly) united view of the Eucharist while later Christian groups do not.

[@sillysyriac8925]

@@cactoidjim1477 It was a big part of the start of my ongoing conversion to Orthodoxy.

[@triplea6174]

Interesting,I'm still in the journey. But I'm more open/accepting of Catholics/Catholicism and orthodoxy ( which i didn't know was a branch).

[@ratatoskr9366]

Honestly, if there was a purpose for Protestants, it would be to keep Catholics in check. I mean my two best friends who are Protestant, I have to thank for making me question, research and learn about my faith in what Youth Catechism had failed to do. I have them to thank for strengthening my faith in God's Church.

[@LectioDivina33]

100% agree I have had the same experience

[@kraljgrimiz]

Yea! Definitly

[@lailakoper3644]

I agree completely. I thank God for the internet and the protestant convert like Dr Scott Hahn . I’ve learn more in just couple of years than in my entire life.

[@grahamvanheerde6278]

Totally agree! Looking through a singular lens only reinforces your own perspective.

[@Musingsofamother]

I’m a reformed Protestant who currently aligns most with the Presbyterian tradition. For the last 6 months or so Ive been looking into what Catholics believe. From their mouths instead of only people refuting them. I’ve got to say, it was not what I expected. There are things I’ve become convinced of that I never thought I would. The Eucharist for example is one. But I’ve got to say... I am frustrated. I don’t want to be catholic. I’ve had so many preconceived opinions about catholicism. God seems to be leading me in this direction and I feel myself digging in my heels. Pray for me, please. Thanks for the great video you two.

[@alhilford2345]

Some of the best Catholics around did not want to be Catholic. They looked into the doctrines of the Church, trying to prove us wrong. I strongly suggest that you investigate, ask questions, look for books. It takes intelligence and humility to be Catholic. Intelligence to recognize the truth and humility accept it. I will pray for you.

[@calvinholt5630]

I love the honesty. Truth comes for us all eventually.

[@bluecomb5376]

I hope you're finding peace and joy as you search for the Truth. I have watched dozens of conversion stories to the Catholic faith on ewtn's channel "the journey home" and most of them start off by saying exactly what you are saying. I will be praying for you!

[@follower8815]

Update?!!?!?!?!

[@CatholicMedic]

You may never see this. It has been one year since your comment but dang do I feel what you're saying. It hits home. I feel alone in this journey. I am a reformed 5 point card carrying Calvinist. I have been steeped in the giants of the faith for a few years now. In the confessions, in guys like Luther and Calvin. Now it feels like it's all falling apart. I sometimes have to step away because I get anxiety about it all and it causes physical symptoms. I can't imagine leaving my church, leaving the reformed faith. This is all I've known almost from the time I was converted. And while I am hungry for the Eucharist I am so worried it is all just Satan tempting me away from the truth and leading me into error. I go back and forth subscribing to Catholic channels, reading Catholic books, etc then I throw them down again because I get so anxious and scared. Whoever you are, I know and understand. This is a long, painful journey. There's no words for what it feels like to have everything you hold to be dear (five solas, doctrines of grace, etc) torn away but you can't help but see what's in front of you. I too looked into Catholicism simply to strengthen my arguments against it and now I'm here. Lord Jesus, please guide me and all others who are struggling with this into the truth no matter where that is found. We love you, Lord and want to serve you as best as possible. May our own sinfulness and biases be cast out as we submit to your will. May we follow you no matter where you lead. No matter how hard. We want the truth. We want you, Jesus. Amen.

[@jessestanley4520]

46 minutes in and I might end up Catholic by the end of this year

[@R.C.A.T]

Join an RCIA class

[@dwong9289]

Trent Horn's book "Why We're Catholic" is a fantastic introductory text!

[@jenniferlewisharris7761]

Praying for you and your discernment!

[@bluecomb5376]

Praying for your discernment. I hope you find peace and joy in the Catholic church!

[@The-Beau-Ultimatum]

Please share your good news!

[@groatswerth2073]

I was raised Evangelical to believe the metaphorical view. When I finally read John 6 without assuming that view, it was obvious that Jesus was being literal and repeatedly clarified himself. I found context is clear. Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said.

[@mathewjose4753]

I agree, he was LITERALLY holding bread and wine while saying this and people are saying "it's just a metaphor"

[@jonhowerton2537]

Yup also confirms at the last supper, saying take this all of you and eat of it for THIS IS MY BODY.

[@mattvoskul8345]

@@mathewjose4753 i suggest u find out who the true children of God are no kazar converts or heathen can be apart of the body of Christ as its written (Colossians 1:24)(revelation 21:22)(revelation 11:1-2)

[@JamesAsp]

@@mathewjose4753 You wrote: "I agree, he was LITERALLY holding bread and wine" ----------------------- Haha I agree. He was not literally cutting his own body and gave of it to the apostles to eat. It is a metaphor about the cross:)

[@Apriluser]

@@JamesAsp It would be good for you to read what the Early Church thought. That might change your ideas.

[@isaacjohnson9276]

I’m a non denominational Protestant, but Matt definitely won this “debate,” in my opinion.

[@mattvoskul8345]

Its all lies anyway basically who's best liar contest

[@calvinboise6126]

I would highly recommend Scott Hahn’s talk “the Eucharist made me catholic” he address some of the points that Cameron makes about John 6

[@jonathanbohl]

@@mattvoskul8345 What is truth?

[@isaacjohnson9276]

@@calvinboise6126 I've watched it! It's sent me down the endless rabbit hole of catholic KZbin videos. I've probably watched a hundred episodes of "The Journey Home" too. I'm like 90% catholic at this point, but I don't know if I'll ever convert.

[@isaacjohnson9276]

@@mattvoskul8345 But yet you're still watching two christians have a conversation... I am praying you find the unfathomable love of Jesus Christ.

[@jonathansoko5368]

Matt won quite easily. Cameron's gotta start being honest really soon and finally come home.

[@ReyWho]

... to Oriental Orthodoxy... I now belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Glory to God!!!

[@emmanuelteshome2469]

@@ReyWho The Oriental Orthodox Churches split from the Catholic Church in AD 451. The Catholic Church is the first Church. Coming from an Oriental (Ethiopian) Orthodox Christian.

[@ReyWho]

@@emmanuelteshome2469 the only universal church is the one which is founded upon Jesus Christ, the Apostles and the prophets. Only the Oriental Churches teach the doctrines of Christ, the Apostles and prophets in their totality. I can argue for this if needed.

[@emmanuelteshome2469]

@@ReyWho Well, I am interested in your argument. Please continue.

[@Chupie77777]

"For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each." 1 Corinthians 3:4-5

[@barelyprotestant5365]

About an hour and a half in. Cameron, I have to ask this: when you claim your interpretation for the words, "It is the Spirit that gives Life, the flesh is of no avail", are you claiming that the literal Flesh of Jesus is not salvific, and therefore the Incarnation is not salvific? Is your argument that Jesus' Flesh is worthless? Because I don't see how your argument could be understood any other way...

[@cactoidjim1477]

That's actually a very good question...

[@cactoidjim1477]

If Jesus' flesh 'is of no avail' - what is the purpose of the Crucifixion?

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

@@cactoidjim1477 The better translation is "the flesh profits nothing". In that it purchased our freedom but it does not *profit* us since we already are in debt to God. It doesn't profit us it cancels our debt. So if we understand the Eucharist (if Jn 6 is about the Eucharist) it shouldn't be giving us immortality.

[@ericb871]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 Concerning this, Jesus is not speaking about His Flesh (“My Flesh”), in verse 63 but “the flesh” which is vastly different. What Jesus means by “the flesh profits nothing” is quite simple because he uses the phrase again in John 8:15 “You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.” (John 8:15, NKJV) Other Bibles translate this “according to the flesh”, or “by human standards”, or “by appearances” or “with your human mind“. When Jesus uses the phrase “the flesh” he is referring to human understanding apart from divine revelation. This statement of Jesus affirms what he has said about eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood and tells us it is a great mystery - spirit and life. With these words Jesus castigates the unbelieving people with the unbelieving Jews for judging spiritual things with earthly minds - by the flesh - and failing to understand the deep mysteries of God in the Eucharist. From the beginning of the Church Christians have understood that Jesus was speaking of his Flesh and Blood in the Eucharist - after all Jesus did not say, “This represents my body.“ he said “This is My Body!“

[@barelyprotestant5365]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 That is incredibly contrived.

[@wifemommamak]

This is less like a debate and more like 2 buddies having a bible study together. Love it. 👏

[@valeriereneeharper]

That’s exactly what it is

[@jonhowerton2537]

I love how gracious you guys are when discussing opposing view points.

[@Damian1975]

I’m Catholic. I understand the wrestle of doctrine. We are human we are going to wonder , doubt., question and debate Looks the councils and debates throughout the Centuries. It took me years to settle in my soul what I believe to be true about the Catholic teaching of the Eucharist I have respect for people in the Protestant tradition who have a zeal and love of God and seeking truth

[@natalieabreu7276]

Such a wise and humble comment

[@mattvoskul8345]

There is no truth in any denomination of Christianity

[@Damian1975]

natalie Abreu Bless you

[@josephzammit8483]

Well said! I’m publishing a weekly KZbin video on episodes from the life of Don Bosco, entitled ST JOHN BOSCO by JOE ZAMMIT. In this series I’m narrating events and miracles from the splendid life of Don Bosco. St John Bosco used to perform a miracle almost every day, through the intercession of Mary Help of Christians. From the lives of saints we can learn how to love God more and draw closer to him Thank you.

[@saoirseryan2546]

The eucharist *is* hard to understand. That doesn't mean it's not true though...

[@thewalruswasjason101]

So is calculus…

[@aureumursa1833]

The debate isn't if the eucharist is real. The debate is about the true presence of Christ in the eucharist, something Catholics believe and most Protestants deny. Just trying to clarify your statement.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

As promised, Holy Spirit arrived after Christ departed. (Book of Acts) Is the “Presence of Christ” actually Holy Spirit ?

[@paynedv]

One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

[@josephzammit8483]

Well said! I’m publishing a weekly KZbin video on episodes from the life of Don Bosco, entitled ST JOHN BOSCO by JOE ZAMMIT. In this series I’m narrating events and miracles from the splendid life of Don Bosco. St John Bosco used to perform a miracle almost every day, through the intercession of Mary Help of Christians. From the lives of saints we can learn how to love God more and draw closer to him Thank you.

[@deedee9495]

My husband is a covert so he had a hard time believing the teaching of Our Holy Catholic Church on transubstantiation. My husband says that when he received the Holy Eucharist, for the first time, as he swallowed he felt this intense beautiful warmth going down his throat. He felt this beautiful intense warmth igniting each intestine in his body. His heart was felt submerged into a warm peaceful place. He can’t describe. I believe it was Jesus telling my husband “I am”

[@taramccreary8997]

At 8 years old my son cried when he received the eucharist for the 1st time. He said "I felt so happy that I had tears of joy."

[@mitchellosmer1293]

CLAIMS of the RCC 1. Catholics claim CHURCH refers to Roman Catholic Church. BIBLE says CHURCH refers to all churches. Acts 5:11, Acts 8:1, Mat 16:18. HISTORY tells us Roman Church was just one local Church a member of the Pentarchy. 2. Catholics claim Roman Church was the CHURCH CHRIST founded (First Church) or one true church. BIBLE says First Local Church was Jerusalem Church. Acts 2. Not Roman Catholic Church. 3. Catholics claim there is only One Church. BIBLE mentions both CHURCH and Churches. “CHURCH” refers to the Body of Christ Eph 5:30, Col 1:18 consisting of all churches. Acts 5:11, Acts 8:1 Mat 16:18. “Churches” refers to local churches Acts 9:31, Acts 15:41 and believers Romans 16:5, 1 Cor 16:19, 4. Catholics claim to be the first believers. BIBLE says first believers were Jewish Christians. Acts 2, Acts 11:26, NOT roman catholics. 5. Catholics claim Pope is the head of the CHURCH. BIBLE says JESUS is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH. Eph 1:22, Eph 5:23, Col 1:18. 6. Catholics claim outside Roman Church there is NO SALVATION. BIBLE says : The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”apart from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. 7. Catholicss claim the first day of the week is a Holy day, made by God. . The Holy Bible says: Isaiah 58:13-14 13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on MY HOLY DAY, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to tride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”part from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. 8. Catholics claim devote to Mary to be saved. BIBLE says “apart from Jesus there is NO SALVATION”. Acts 4:12, 1 Cor 3:11. . BIBLE says “believe in Jesus to be saved”. Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16. 10. Catholics claim Roman Church inherited infallible authority from Peter. BIBLE does not say that in Mat 16 or John 20 or John 21. 11. Catholics claim Roman pontiff inherited infallible authority from Peter. BIBLE does not say that in Mat 16. 12. Catholics claim bishop of ROME = the pope. BIBLE does not say that. 13. Catholics claim there is an office of bishop of bishops/universal bishop/pope. BIBLE does not speak of such an office. History tells us the first bishop of bishops came in AD590-600s. 14. Roman Church has all the false unbiblical clergies - Roman priests, roman cardinals, roman pontiff, monks, nuns, friars, … BIBLE mentions only pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets, apostles, deacons, bishop, elders. Titus 1:5, Eph 4:11, 1 Tim 3. 15. Roman Church claim its doctrines come from traditions of Apostles. BUT 95% of roman doctrines are Not from traditions of Jesus or Apostles or Scriptures; neither practised by the Church of the Bible.

[@ericlucas82]

Thank you for making this available to the whole public. I'm excited to watch it. May God bless you.

[@mdg6117]

Cameron, your open heart and mind is truly a reflection of God's grace working in you. It is something too many Christians lack. My respect for you continues to grow everytime I see these kinds of videos on your channel. God bless you and your family brother.

[@cynthiajohnson8463]

I just love to see how much these two gentlemen respect and love each other. Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ! Such a great witness of what true Christianity is all about ❤️🙏🏼

[@grahamvanheerde6278]

Amen!

[@st.saturninia9179]

I converted from charismatic non-denom to Catholic a couple years ago. The Eucharist was the #1 reason I became Catholic. I realized that if it’s true, I must partake. Nothing on this earth would be more precious. I also knew that if I was disappointed in the Eucharist, I could go right back to any number of non-denom churches. I think Cameron has it backward around 10:14. If he accepted transubstantiation, he would have to leave Protestantism. Which in his case, would be culturally difficult, relationally painful and disruptive to his whole life. And that’s what becomes so painful when you’re considering becoming Catholic. Your Protestant life (which you may really love) has to transform; like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

[@Raverraver9999]

Proof Eucharist is body of Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary is his mother. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z 50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a 52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” Eucharistic miracle.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaCmnJmqd6emeNE kzbin.info/www/bejne/paDKe2CZmc5qr6s (Rome Reports) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZnFq3-PnpyWr8U (Lanciano) kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIGtaXWFh91kppo kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJWUZ6d4h8d_jtk kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqfbhXd3i96jrtU (levitating eucharist) Incorruptible bodies of saints due to the Eucharist - only happens in the Catholic church. No other religion has this miracle kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYSmnGOnqJJlY68 (Padre Pio) kzbin.info/www/bejne/oH-XhKmqh8-YaKs kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4XVg2R5eryXmMU kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnSnc5ihdrZgfKs (Carlo Acutis) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWTZnZ6AnZecgMU Apparition of Virgin Mary kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYLRfIZtjrp4bbM (Virgin Mary apparition in Ivory Coast) kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZoGzeKiDotNpirM (Virgin Mary statue moving) kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoe4aZWel7Z8pNk (Virgin Mary apparition in Egypt) kzbin.info/www/bejne/pH6oiKuId5JkmsU 1968 Egypt kzbin.info/www/bejne/boq1Z3yEoLl-bbM (Miracle of the sun) kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3eTkKypis6prqc (Miracle of the sun) kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWfUcoB4aNaIpqM Medjugorje Sun miracle on Easter Sunday kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKq8f3yrod18mMU Virgin Mary appears in Egypt & Spain-Eye Witnesses

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

But wouldn't it be true for all churches, if Jesus indeed be present with His churches? It doesn't have to be the Catholic Church because when Jesus said those words, the Catholic Church was not even established. It began in 313 AD.

[@nikolai5058]

@@EdgeOfEntropy17 the Catholic Church was actually founded in 33 AD by Jesus Christ himself

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

@@nikolai5058 Please provide proof of this. I have never found any. It's never mentioned in Scripture, nor is the office of pope.

[@EdgeOfEntropy17]

@@tafazzi-on-discord Thanks. I will check that out. Not saying I will change my mind, but I am of the belief that I could always be wrong and until I find a truth that is absolutely undeniable, I always search for more evidence.

[@Noel15879]

Thank you both for sharing this. Matt’s question about what more could Jesus have said was very compelling, especially paired with the interpretation of the early church.

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

Fully disagree. Jesus could've said I will give you my body and blood through bread and wine. He could've said the bread and the wine will be γεγενημένον (gegenēmenon) transformed. John uses this word to refer to water being turned into wine. If we want to take this to a transubstantiation level (which is Aristotelian and not at all in the church fathers) Jesus could've said the form μορφή (morphe) was gegenēmenon but the ópsis (opsis) outside was not.

[@ericb871]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 Jesus could've but he didn't - he left the twelve in charge. This kind of reasoning you propose is a slippery slope as it leads to questions regarding who Jesus is and why he didn't explicitly mention that he was God himself among other things. The true interpretation can only be shown based what the historical position was not by us deciding by our own intellect. This is arrogance of thought.

[@jon6car]

@@ericb871 Its also a double standard for doctrine. Most protestants want Catholic doctrines to be explicitly found in the bible. But when you put protestant doctrine to the same fire it will fail.

[@jon6car]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 Is literally holding bread/wine and saying this is my body and blood not good enough?

[@nicholassellers6249]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 You have to connect the discourse in John 6 and the last supper. He explained in John 6 that his body is true food and blood is true drink and then at the last supper he says “this is my body” (true food) “this is my blood” (true drink). There’s a direct connection in language there. Also, it’s quite obvious the early church believed in the true presence of Jesus within the Eucharist.

[@ponderwoodtimes]

THANK YOU for releasing this! I have been prayerfully struggling so much with the issue of the Eucharist for about 3 years now. Perhaps there will be some closure and more comments after I watch the video!

[@jmjaquinas7298]

God bless you. That’s definitely a difficult journey. Keep praying for Truth. I would recommend reading Scott Hahn’s two books “The Fourth Cup” and “The Lamb’s Supper” They were helpful for me

[@ponderwoodtimes]

@JMJ Aquinas Thank you! I really appreciate your encouraging words! God bless you as well!

[@jmjaquinas7298]

@@ponderwoodtimes Of course! Thank you, and a blessed Sunday to you!

[@gregorytobin5754]

Thank you for taking the time to have Matt on, Cameron. This was a fantastic discussion. And I can tell how passionate both you and Matt are about this. And I encourage and pray for you to continue this journey you are on! God bless!

[@flammamoris]

Thank you Matt for giving me a confirmation I needed! May God bless you!

[@andrewlilles1513]

Cameron I ll be praying for healing of your vestibular issue. My son is going through something similar. I have an old cousin Bernadette from Lourdes France. She is a mighty prayer warrior and I ll ask for her prayers as well. Awesome conversation

[@sarasofiacastro6750]

Thank you for your arguments, Cameron! It helped me understand my evengelical brothers and sisters so much better. God bless you and your ministry!🙏

[@yourfriendmike5940]

Regardless of which side you end up falling on, Cameron did a really good job hosting this conversation.

[@paulywauly6063]

I think Matt really hit the nail on the head when he said that there was no possible way that Christ could have been any clearer in his teaching of his presence in the Eucharist . The metaphorical argument is not strong in my opinion , especially when weighed against the quite explicit and clear statements made by our Lord on this issue .

[@mattvoskul8345]

The Eucharist discussion is pointless God says he hates E. S. A. U. aka europeans 4ever "malachi 1:2-4"

[@bazzy8376]

and the fact that the crowd was so disgusted by it that they left him. It's like the precursor to the reformation

[@rockztah911]

Welcome Home Cameron! 🎉🙏❤️

[@dmcc1703]

Great stuff. I enjoy Matt and your channels. Very insightful stuff that shows Christians how to interact with love and respect with our other brothers and sisters in Christ.

[@BecomingFabulous]

I'm not going to lie, that "we eat Jesus!" line killed me. I actually had to pause the video and collect myself lol I'm thinking, well when you put it like that Matt, yeah...we sound SUPER crazy

[@bazzy8376]

That's part of the reason they killed us for hundreds of years.

[@aciccotelli6951]

I had a Jehovah Witness look at me like I was crazy and actually said.... "You eat Jesus?"

[@popebenedict7615]

Thats why many of His disciples left. The Eucharist has been the litmus test for following Christ from the beginning

[@bazzy8376]

@@SilenceDogwood. For a non denominational, in a nondenominational church it IS NOT the body of Christ. Transubstantiation is a miracle initiatied by God. He would never trust the body of Christ to just any preacher. Notice in the bible, the apostles "laid hands on" those that could carry on their function. There has to be apostolic succession. You can't just wake up and say. "i'm going to start a church and perform miracles." Miracles come from God.

[@aciccotelli6951]

@@bazzy8376 So this is where it gets fuzzy for me .. An Anglican or a Lutheran can believe in, desire and acknowledge the real presence but because it was not consecrated by a catholic or orthodox priest, it's not.

[@lauravanderlinden8826]

Cameron surely you read 'Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist' by Brant Pitre and 'The Lamb's Supper' by Scott Hahn if you're interested in how the Last Supper narratives support Eucharistic theology! All the Old Testament background that the disciples would have had made Jesus' Eucharistic institution much more obvious to them than to us who are plebs when it comes to Jewish context lol. Loved this discussion.

[@phylliseichman7701]

What about the Buenos Aries miracle?

[@elygarcia2855]

This is why Jesus left a Church, a teaching, a Doctrine. So these debates did not need to be done. He showed the disciples how to teach his teaching. Also, the Bible was not put together until about 300 years after Christ so how do you think they taught this teaching?

[@jerryotokpa7787]

Your comment is very deep

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

The Gospels and Paul's letters were viewed as Scripture at an early stage.

[@HisLivingStone241]

@Jimmy more over, the message was a Controlled Oral Tradition. This means that the message remains and that it is not changed for what the community needs (i.e. Uncontrolled). It was after some time they realized that in order to better maintain this message; they put the message (i.e. Gospel) on paper. Additionally, this kind of mentality is what Jesus and the Apostles would have had since this is how 1st Century Jews would be brought up. So to put out the 300 year gap (which is kind of a stretch already since the text / message was already well out by that point) is a non-sequitur. If all else, it does not follow since by the time the Bible was fully "formed", the Church was well aware of the authority of Scripture (despite having other beloved books such as the Shepherd of Hermes). And then of course you have the classical Protestant arguments that point out what favored Sola scriptura (i.e. Paul) is found within the 1st centuries when paper was by NO way as accessible as in Martin Luther's time.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Verbal Scripture (Gospel/Bible) was effectively used BEFORE writings were gathered and/or selected and compiled in 300s.

[@Marist_Chanel]

Thanks to you both for having the courage to be raw about your Faith so publicly. God bless you both.

[@luamizondagh3620]

Thank you so much to both of you, I really enjoyed this dialogue! Our Faith is so interesting! ❤️

[@DoctorPepper0]

Great Discussion guys. Matt's points are so spot-on and make such logical sense. Thanks for sharing!

[@Stygard]

Just as a defense for "debate" I feel that "one" debate isn't always helpful. One debate it might just be the ability of the debaters that determine the "winner," but for me, about 4 years ago I watched every catholic- protestant debate I could find on KZbin. That helped to hear the arguments from both sides said in different ways as well as rebuttals and different angles. Together I feel I got a better picture of what divides catholics and protestants. And spoiler alert, I converted to Catholicism.

[@Stygard]

@@SilenceDogwood. I have read the Bible many times.

[@Stygard]

@MiGenteVoIP I think you said it well. I grew up Baptist, attend and received my Master of divinity from a Baptist seminary, and still so many "issues" dividend so many who claimed the bible alone. For me it was working out what is essential and what is open for disagreement. But in the end we need an authority to set that standard. Christ gave us the three legged stool of scripture, tradition and the magisterium to set the boundaries.

[@jotunman627]

The biggest difference between Catholics and Protestants is the Eucharist. What is it that the Eucharist provides? The very thing, that Protestant cherishes the most: the Real Presence of Christ and our real union with Christ, ‘accepting the Lord Jesus as your personal Savior’ in the most real, total, complete, personal, concrete and intimate way! The center of all Christian worship was always the Eucharist, not the Sermon. Belief in the Eucharist is a gift of Grace.

[@michaelvigil3436]

Can I ask if you did the same for deciding between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and if so why did you go with Catholicism? I’m currently on that train now and I’m having trouble deciding which is the proper church to join.

[@Stygard]

@@michaelvigil3436 I didn't really think much of orthodoxy at the time. I was pretty convinced by the papacy in relationship to protestant arguments. I have explored it more over the years but I'm settled Catholic. This Easter will be 5 years! There is alot more to my story. Not sure youtube comment section the place to lay it out. I think east and west will reunite in my lifetime... Crazy I know.

[@e.g.726]

Hats off to both of you gentlemen. What a beautiful debate. So much respect between each other as it should be. You are such a blessing to us and a great example. I pray that Cameron one day can finally come home to the catholic church. Also praying for you to continue your friendship for ever. T

[@vanman68682a]

Fantastic. And we will pray for your balance!! I can’t imagine the dizziness!!

[@dwong9289]

Brief summary of reasons for believing in the real presence (updated list ): 1. John 6 - Those who saw the multiplying of the bread to the 5000 left Christ because they realized how difficult His teaching was. In John 6:66 we see "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Christ doubles down on his teaching when asked for clarification, saying only those who "trōgōn" (to gnaw) on His flesh and drink His blood have eternal life. Those who do not do this have no life in them. Furthermore, when He goes to describe His flesh as true food, the Greek word in John 6:55 is "alethinos" which in this context means "that which has not only the name and resemblance, but the real nature corresponding to the name, in every respect." When you consider the entire context, it clearly shows the teaching of the real presence. Now Protestants try to use John 6:63 to try to show there is no real presence, but the problem is "the flesh" refers to human nature apart from God’s grace as we see in 1 Cor 3:1, He did not say "my flesh" availeth nothing - otherwise that would just contradict the previous statement that the flesh was "given for the life of the world". The interpretation that "the flesh" means human nature apart from grace makes perfect sense in context, because the Lord goes on to say "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." This indicates that believing in this teaching requires grace, and parallels Matthew 16:17 "Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." So, those who rejected this teaching had human nature/reason apart from grace, which is why they couldn't accept the teaching - since it was so hard, which is why the Lord asks "Doth this offend you?" Furthermore, in John 6:67-68 even after the supposed clarification, the Lord asks "Will ye also go away?", so He knew that the teaching was still a tough one, demonstrating John 6:63 did not render all His words to be merely symbolic. Coincidentally enough it is St. Peter the first Pope who answers on behalf of the true believers saying "to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." This perfectly captures the current state of affairs - the protestants who reject the teaching ditch Christ because the teaching is too hard to accept, but those under the Pope accept this tough teaching and abide by Christ since "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." This is because St. Peter is not reasoning by "flesh and bones", but listening to our "Father in heaven." 2. 1 Cor 11:27-30 - The KJV goes as far as saying those who receive the Eucharist in an unworthy manner are guilty of the crucifixion, damn themselves, and that's why many are dead. This interpretation makes no sense in light of a symbol. Receiving a symbol in a state of sin is going to damn you and is the reason many are ill and fell asleep? If you believe in the real presence, this makes perfect sense. You are guilty of the crucifixion, damning yourself, and putting yourself to sleep because you have literally offended the true Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of the LORD. 3. Foreshadowed in the Passover Lamb (Ex. 12:1-10) - the passover lamb literally had to be eaten, the Lord Jesus is the new passover Lamb (1 Cor 5:7) and His flesh is to be literally eaten. This parallel is also one of the reasons why God through the scriptures used the word "trōgōn" (to gnaw), in context of John 6. We gnaw on the Eucharist because it is truly His flesh which feeds us. The nature of Christ's sacrifice was prefigured in the passover Lamb, Jesus was sinless (spotless), had no bones broken, and His side pierced, His blood covered us from God's wrath, and we must eat His flesh after the sacrifice. 4. The Didache (70AD) + Early Church Fathers - the Didache which was compiled by the very disciples of the Apostles wrote about the real presence, this is also taught universally by the Church Fathers, many of them even wrote about giving adoration to the Eucharist (such as Augustine). It's weird how the Church Fathers who defended the core doctrines, such as the Trinity and Divinity of Christ, were also talking about the real presence. Either Augustine gave adoration to a symbol and is an idolater who is burning in hell (1 Cor 6:9) or he was absolutely right and is a great saint enjoying in the eternal vision of the Triune God. Very interesting how Calvinists especially love him, and think he is the best Church Father, but would be committed to saying he is an unsaved idolater. Even John Calvin acknowledged that the Church Fathers all taught the sacrifice of the mass - which either means they are all idolaters - which would mean the Church for 1500 years were all idolaters which would contradict the "gates of hell shall not prevail" (Mt 16:17). 5. Foreshadowed in the Manna - obvious ties to John 6 (since Christ made the connection Himself). God always had the Eucharist in mind, all the prefigurements in the Old Testament show that its completion in the eternal covenant established by Christ would be something more significant than a mere symbol. 6. Foreshadowed in Melchizedek's bread and wine offering (Genesis 14:18-20) - the High Priest (Christ) made an eternal offering of His body and blood - which is re-presented when the bread and wine is transubstantiated. It's interesting how even since the beginning of God's covenant's with man - we see hints of the Eucharist even in Genesis - indicating it will be something important in salvation history. It's also interesting how the mass as depicted in the Book of Revelation is what salvation history ends with... Might be because it plays an important role, possibly? For more on the book of Revelation and its connection to the mass, read Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper." 7. The fact that the Lord Jesus was born in Bethlehem - the House of Bread... indicating the centrality of the Eucharist in the Divine Plan. He is the bread of life, whose flesh you must eat, and blood you must drink. The theme of bread is everywhere, even in the Our Father prayer - which has a two-fold meaning: constant reliance on God for basic needs, and the gift of union with Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist, under the appearance of bread. 8. The fact the Lord Jesus was born in a manger (phatne in greek) - a place where animals eat from, derived from the word " pateomai (to eat)." We are his sheep, and we are nourished by Him who is the bread of life, which is why He was born in the house of bread in a place where animals eat from. So, the Lord who is the bread of life, who was born in the house of bread, in the place where animals ate from, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit established covenants in the Old Testament where bread was the means of nourishing His people, and consuming the flesh of the passover Lamb was necessary to be in a relationship with God, now establishes the final covenant and tells us we must truly eat His flesh which is under the appearance of bread, and those who receive this unworthily damn themselves - you're telling me this bread stuff was just a mere symbol and not pointing to something profound like the real presence of the Holy Eucharist? 9. Luke 22:20: When Christ speaks about the New Testament, He is not speaking about Scripture, but the Eucharist. "This cup is the new testament in my blood" shows the primacy of the sacrament of Holy Communion and how it is essential to the New Testament - the final covenant. The institution of the Eucharist and the continuation of its practice makes little to no sense under a symbolic view. Don't you find it slightly odd that the Lord Jesus left you with this practice - if it has only some symbolic significance? Why is that? The continuation of the Eucharist makes perfect sense under a sacramental view - since God wants such intimate union with man. God already did the amazing act of uniting Himself with humanity in the Person of Jesus Christ - to show His great love for us and to redeem us. But, He goes even further - wanting to divinize us and allow us to be partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4) - which is why He draws us so intimately close in the Holy Eucharist, where we are literally nourished directly by our Lord. We already believe in a Triune God and in the Incarnation - we should not be surprise that Our Lord goes even further, and not only saves us - but brings us in complete union with Him where He literally "dwelleth in me" when I receive the Eucharist. Our God is a personal God who wants us to be completely united to Him, even to the point where He humbles Himself under the appearance of bread and wine out of great love, great love

[@sebastiangiucastro2426]

Powerful ❤️

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

Lovely how you say the Orthodox church is not the Holy Catholic one :D

[@othername6345]

You clearly put a lot of time and love into this. However, it's a lot to read and take in for a Protestant who never read/heard these things and it's too much. Can you maybe give your 3 or 4 best reasons that you think are really convincing? (Reasons 6 and 7 seems like a stretch). I can't get past the adoration of Mother Mary, doing something to lessen someone else's time in purgatory or praying to saints. (Amongst other things) So I don't see myself converting, but I might change my mind on this topic. So, the stakes are kinda low if you don't have time or whatever - it's fine.

[@viravirakti]

Also Luke 24.30,31. When Christ blessed, broke and gave the bread to the disciples, their eyes were opened, but Christ dissapeared from their sight and they were left with the bread. Confirmed in 1 corinthians 10.16. And, of course, the Catholic Church is not more holy than the Orthodox Church, with the official name Orthodox Catholic Church. The Holy Church is not (only) the Roman Catholic one (that's just a biased attitude), but the one with apostolic and priestly transmission and tradition, starting with Christ, the Head. The very fact that the Orthodox Church has and is centered on the practice of eucharist (and the other sacraments) makes it holy. If not, actually, even more holy, considering the fact that the Orthodox Church has much stricter rules regarding the taking of the body and blood of Christ, like keeping the fasting days (Wednesdays and Fridays) and periods (before the big Holy Days, when the eucharist is in general shared) (from no animal products, alcohol, tobacco, oil in general, to complete fasting for those able and for everybody, not even water, in the day of eucharist) prior to the taking of the eucharist, with exceptions for the sick, old and dying, thus requiring a holy attitude from the believers, and having a holy and respectful one toward the body and blood of Christ, and proper care and guidance for the believers, more in line with 1 corinthians 11.26-30.

[@viravirakti]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 Is nothing lovely about it, it's just a biased attutude, improper for the Orthodox and Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, sharing His body and blood.

[@santosjohny]

Mary, the first Christian had the flesh and blood of Jesus residing within her. Would it not be fitting that God extended this grace to all Christians (to be able to have the flesh and blood of God reside in us as well)?

[@JoeArant]

I say this in Christian love, but it is tragic you see Mary as the first Christian...

[@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039]

That might not be the best argument for those who already hold Mary to be "just a woman"

[@AnselmsAlwaysAccurate]

@@JoeArant wdym? She was literally the first person to accept Jesus Christ as messiah, which is why she had him.

[@BiglariProductions]

@@AnselmsAlwaysAccurate how do you know that?????

[@JoeArant]

@@AnselmsAlwaysAccurate this view disregards the entirety of the Old Testament and the men who through faith saw the fruition of their hope. In that sense, they were as much a follower of Christ as were their New Testament counterparts.

[@fairwhether1]

An hour and 5 minutes in and we're finally getting to the question that I have been wondering about!

[@grantlaing3053]

This was brilliant Matt, patient and concise. Deeply helpful.

[@DryApologist]

2 big reasons why I think John 6 is about the Eucharist is because Jesus mentions eating His flesh AND drinking His blood, if the discourse was just a metaphor comparing eating bread to symbolically eating the flesh of Jesus, then Jesus could have just stopped with saying "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man" since there was no mention of drinking anything let alone drinking blood and it would not have been needed or served a specific function in order to complete the metaphor. However, it would make a lot of sense if the passage was a commentary on the Eucharist for it to mention both eating flesh and drinking blood since both of those elements are mentioned at the Lord's Supper. The second reason that I will mention as to why John 6 is about the Eucharist is that earlier in the passage at 6:42 the interlocuters ask 'how Jesus could have come down from heaven' and obviously the Gospel is claiming that Jesus literally descended from heaven. So, when the interlocuters ask a similar question at 6:52 in regards to 'how Jesus could literally give His flesh to eat' it seems to then in a parallel sense to indicate that eating Christ's flesh too will be literally offered by Christ. The audience just did not understand how both Jesus coming down from heaven and giving His flesh to eat could both literally literally be true.

[@cactoidjim1477]

Cameron was right, the Gospel of John *is* evangelical - but it is also *liturgical* If you come from a non-liturgical Christian background, it's impossible to see this. When first I tried to read John through the 'Catholic lens' it looked a lot different.

[@josueherrera9760]

You did an amazing job explaining this! I completely agree!

[@bellanitocortez-rodriguez9235]

Actual translation says chew and swallow my flesh... Jesus cannot be more clear then that

[@cactoidjim1477]

@@benjamind547 That is a profound insight, and completely in-line with the Catholic view of the Eucharist "body, blood, soul, and Divinity".

[@cactoidjim1477]

@@benjamind547 Once one travels to "required interpretations" the Catholic/Orthodox approach is the only one that makes sense (generally speaking).

[@michaelohara2161]

Knowing what the Eucharist really is, I find it very very Sad that Protestants do Not have such a gift and help, in this Life.

[@LullianArt]

"I would rather drink blood with the Pope, than mere wine with the Zwinglians" - Martin Luther

[@JoseMartinez-rx6sl]

"now every farm boy and house girl thinks they can interpret what it is written in this book" Martin Luther

[@greengirls246]

🔥 🔥 🔥

[@marlaemerson3008]

At 1:07:51 Cameron asks "How can the body be in two places at once?" My question to Cameron is "how can the Holy Spirit be with you and be with me, and be with millions of other people, all at the same time? My answer is "of course He can. And of course his body can be with many people, all at the same time." God is said to be both omnipresent, and omniscient. This is what people have believed for thousands of years.

[@kaitlinkasperski7942]

watching this now knowing Cameron is in the process of Converting, Welcome Home Cameron!

[@ThruTheUnknown]

The foreshadowing is an element of the scriptural case for the real presence in the eucharist

[@tomgreene2282]

Well said indeed.

[@thaddeusparco915]

Cameron is such a wonderful person. When I watched this and saw him initiating the prayers, I was like, that’s it, he’ll be Catholic in no time. Prayer works and it’s very powerful! Thanks Cameron.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

NON-catholic Christians PRAY together often enough asking for Holy Spirit to guide those involved who are entering an important conversation, debate, conflict or decision.

[@aurorausagi3235]

I really love both Matt's and Cameron's channels. I find them smart, honest men, and really like their various interactions. Nothing to do with the topic, but found super fun they wore their team channel shirt.

[@joelmontero9439]

Keep the good work up Cameron🖒 ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@albusai]

comer significa creer lea la biblia deje de creer en doctrinas de hombre

[@Fasolislithuan]

@@albusai ¿Donde dice la Biblia que comer el cuerpo de Cristo signifique creer? Eso no está en la Escritura Sagrada (falso por tanto según Sola Scriptura ). Y mejor pregunta incluso: Si comer el cuerpo de Cristo significa creer en El, beber su sangre como parte del mismo recuerdo (la cena del Señor) también significa creer en Cristo y por lo tanto alcanzar la salvación (Sola Fide). ¿Donde dice la Biblia que beber la sangre signifique creer? Según Levítico 17:14 beber la sangre significa exactamente lo contrario: ser rechazado, excluido, no salvado por Dios.

[@merseabless8305]

Excellent debate for the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Anyone who has been in Adoration knows it’s the Real presence..

[@augustvonmacksen2526]

Amen, The tabernacle radiates with Christ's presence.

[@geraldinereilly5931]

@@augustvonmacksen2526 Yes when you come closer to the monstrance holding the Eucharist. It's a humbling experience and each time I am different. Oftentimes spontaneous prayers in my heart and often this tremendous peace I can't explain. Our Lord knows what we need. Sometimes thoughts would arise that I didn't want. The Lord showing me areas of my life and things I needed to purge. There is a sort of purification happening. In times past I wouldn't stay long in adoration because I felt the Holy Spirit convicts me of sinful areas of my life. I would want to run🤣. But God draws me back. He has always been there in so many ways in my life.and in a very real and tangible way in the Blessed Sacrament. Years ago to draw me back to church it was through an outpouring of Holy spirit and spiritual comfort when life crushed me.

[@thepentacostalchatholicconvert]

Loved it! Thanks alot! ❤️

[@rifenmazer]

Wow both of you sound right! 👍 then it comes to each of us' faith on how to 'read the texts'

[@mathewsbiju3251]

"Our own belief is that the renovation of the world will be brought about only by the Holy Eucharist." - Pope Leo XIII

[@firingallcylinders2949]

I appreciate the discussion here, but the Pope is not someone Protestants are going to want to hear. If you want to discuss anything with Protestants, especially the Reformed if you quote the Pope you're going to start with them pushing back immediately. Just an FYI.

[@popebenedict7615]

Meanwhile we are locked out of Churches and can't receive Him. No wonder it's getting worse

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

👆 Right. NON-catholic Christians are not submitted to any Pope. History reports numerous popes as being much more like Pagan Emperors, NOT like Bishops who *Teach The Living Word + *Tend to the Sheep. 75 consecutive Popes were the source of 6 centuries of Catholic Inquisitors. Why trust the UN-trustworthy ? Sex Scandal = More DIS-trust. There’s NO good reason to blindly, mindlessly obey an Absolute Monarch. I can think of many reasonable reasons NOT to do so.

[@lukeabbott3591]

I may have to convert to Catholicism now

[@josephkoob8370]

The Eucharist is the epitome of our Faith. So wonderful

[@tomgreene2282]

Why not indeed.

[@donatio1]

Welcome home 🥰🥰💕

[@WhiskyJax]

Thank you for the conversation, gents.

[@grahamvanheerde6278]

Thoroughly enjoyed this! Two enquiring minds, a couple of mates that respectfully entered into the essence of what I feel is at the heart of the matter that divides Christians into our two main camps. Loved the questions and challenges to our thinking and I believe Cameron and Matt were equally challenged. Look forward to more!🤠👍

[@danharte6645]

Cameron, Mat, David Woods, Michael Jones (inspiring philosophy) Trent Horn, Anthony Styine(return to tradition) , Edward Feser, John from whatdoyoumeam, Dr Bruce Grayson, Dr Pym Von lommel et all (the journal of near death studies) These are my go to for informative talks or insights on christianity/theism. There's a few others but I'll save them for an time. Love you both Cam and Matt. You're making such a difference and all I can only say is God bless you both abundantly

[@4Clubs]

Cheeky me wants to say that you forgot the better Michael Jones. I would add Reason & Theology to that list personally, they cover some great topics.

[@Fasolislithuan]

@@4Clubs Michael Jones the philosopher that inspire us or Michael Jones the inspired philosopher? Both are amazing.

[@mattvoskul8345]

@@Fasolislithuan both are blasphemous liars n thats FACT

[@Fasolislithuan]

@@mattvoskul8345 Blasphemous liars? Evidences?

[@mattvoskul8345]

@@Fasolislithuan THE CHURCH (Colossians 1:24) Christ body is the church (Acts 7:48) the most high "DWELLETH" not in TEMPLES made with hands (Ezekiel 39:29) for I have poured out my "SPIRIT" upon the house of ISRAEL (1st Corinthians 3:16) know ye not that ye are the TEMPLE of God and that the SPIRIT of God DWELLETH in you (Acts 7:37-38) this that Moses that said unto the children of ISRAEL this is he(Christ) that was in the "CHURCH" that was in the wilderness (Psalm 74:2) remember thy "CONGREGATION" which thou has purchased of old the rod of thine inheritance which thou hast redeemed this "MT ZION" wherein thou hast DWELT (1st Corinthians 15:9) for I(paul) am the lest of the apostles because i persecuted "THE CHURCH OF GOD" (Ephesians 5:21) even as Christ is the head of the "CHURCH" and HE is the saviour of the "BODY" (Revelation 21:22) I saw no temple for the LORD God almighty and the lamb are the temple aka body of Christ (Revelation 11:1-2) saying rise and measure the TEMPLE of God(aka body of Christ) and those that worship therein -but the court that is WITHOUT the TEMPLE leave out and measure it not for it is given unto the "gentiles" Now ull pretend u didn't read or understand who God says the church is bcuz ur a liar too

[@bjoeym]

For those who question this Catholic doctrine or even mock it, consider the chronology of the events of John 6. First, you have the miracle of the loaves where Jesus feeds the multitude. Directly following this, you have the miracle of Jesus walking on the water. Lastly, you have Jesus teaching in the synagogue about his flesh being true food and his blood being true drink, and unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we have no life within us. Why is the miracle of Jesus walking on the water placed between the two passages that are related to the Eucharist (ie. feeding thousands with only a few loaves and fish, and commanding that we eat his flesh and drink his blood)? Two of the main objections to the Eucharist are that 1) How can something that looks like bread and tastes like bread be human flesh. And 2) How can billions of people feed on the flesh of one man throughout centuries? Both of these objections are addressed in John 6. First, Jesus feeds thousands with the amount of food that could probably only have fed a handful of people. But he demonstrates that he is not limited by natural constraints. Then he walks on the water to show that he is not limited by creation and that as the creator of the universe, he has full dominion over natural law. And then it states that the apostles "received" him into the boat, like Catholics "receive" communion. Lastly, after demonstrating that we have no need to question how Jesus could feed billions of people across hundreds of generations, or how something that looks like bread could be human flesh, once those questions have been settled - finally, he gives his command to eat his flesh and drink his blood. A final thought, in John 6 Jesus says that the bread that he shall give for the life of the world is his flesh. So he is equating his flesh with the bread that he will give for the life of the world. With that in mind, if the Eucharist is purely symbolic, then it would follow that the flesh of Christ on the cross was also symbolic, and not his actual flesh; since he clearly equated the two. Either, they are both his flesh or they are both symbolic, but it can't be either/or.

[@benjaminjohnson2848]

Hi Cameron, I've just stumbled across this conversation on YT, and thank you for sharing it. I resonate deeply with your searching for trustworthy epistemic foundations. I grew up in a Calvinist family, young earth creationism homeschooled, and was taught we just had to presuppose the Bible was true (presuppositional apologetics). When I encountered more of the world I lost my faith, became an atheist for a decade and a half, then felt a call back to something deeper. I was a kind of pantheistic progressive post-Christian Universalist for a period, maybe the kind Matt was referring to who would have said the resurrection was a spiritual truth but not real. I wanted to figure everything out for myself. I didn't trust any authority, in part because of the way authority had been used to hurt me as a child. At a certain point I recognized and encountered Christ as Risen Lord, and then I had to decide where to go to obey Him and be near Him. I became Catholic. My observation in listening to your conversation, that I feel is relevant to the search for epistemic foundations, is this: how many times did each of you use the phrase: *I think*?

[@teresasimkins5518]

Oh my goodness, Cameron, God bless you and keep you close! You are in my prayers also😇

[@GardenMinistry.]

I would really like to see a debate on Mary next! So many protestants that are on the verge of converting and accept everything about the Catholic church feel like Mary is their last hurdle. So many misconceptions there!

[@gideondavid30]

YEAH Mary is the deal breaker.

[@GardenMinistry.]

@@gideondavid30 it used to be a hurdle for me too! Until I learned that veneration of Mary was taught by the early Church Fathers, Including St. Ignatius. We are talking the first century! And by people that knew the Apostles personally, who were taught by them, were venerating Mary. This is important because everything that has been passed down for us by the Apostles is what Jesus taught them, and they wouldn't be leading us astray. That was the big green light for me. “Mary. The prophets announced you and the apostles commemorated you with the highest of praises.”

[@GardenMinistry.]

@@gideondavid30 i highly encourage you to read The Father's Knows Best by Jimmy Akin, it has historical scriptures, letters, and teachings by the first Christians, the ones taught by the Apostles themselves, and their disciples.

[@Katholikos78]

Not really. Lutherans and Anglicans venerate the Blessed Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. As do Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

[@gideondavid30]

@@Katholikos78 Therefore they are not the true church no matter how you spin it. Rome defines itself as the only apostolic church given to us by God through the disciples.

[@coltensymmes]

I appreciated this conversation. Here are some points I think Cameron should consider: The rule against drinking blood in Leviticus was due to the fact that "the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Lev 17:11) And then it continue: "and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life." In short, the life is in the blood and it makes atonement by reason of the life. It's the life that makes the atonement. The word "life" is the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh). The Lord doesn't want them to commune with the totality of the animal (body and soul). He commands only the flesh of the lamb to be eaten. (Eating and communion are tied together. Think Genesis 3 and The Fall. Eating of the fruit was a symbol of the communion with the enemy and a breaking of communion with God.) The blood, having the "life" or the nephesh or the soul, contains the power of atonement Why wouldn't the Lord want them to commune with the totality of the animal? Because animal souls can't atone for sin as we see in Hebrews: “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” ( Hebrews 10:3-4 ). With all that said, as Dr. Brant Pitre (who Matt mentions in the video - Scripture scholar) notes, the very reason why they couldn't drink of the blood in the Old Covenant is the very reason why Christ DOES COMMAND his disciples to drink His blood in the New Covenant; because it is His Body, Blood, SOUL, & DIVINITY that atones for our sin. Also, the law in Leviticus 17:11 to not drink the blood is given by God to Moses. The law is withing the context how the Israelites are to worship God. All the rituals/feast days were how they were to worship. God commands HOW to worship. They didn't just make it up themselves. It was revealed to them. So, Jesus Christ comes and at the Last Supper institutes a NEW PASSOVER, a new way to worship. He can do this because He is God in the flesh before them. In the Old Testament he instructs the people HOW to worship. In the New Covenant Jesus at the Last Supper is instructing them HOW to worship. He is setting up a new "rite" so to speak. He can change the "rite" / the how / ritual itself because He is establishing a New Covenant and a new way to worship that is replacing, while also fulfilling, the old way to worship. He is revealing to them how He is to be worshipped. Read now Jesus' words at the Last Supper: "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission [atonement] of sins. (Matthew 26:26-28) In Luke's gospel he says, "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19) In other words, "Do this in memorial of me. Do this to worship me. This is the new ritual of the new covenant. This is my body. This is my blood. Eat it and drink it. This is how to worship me and this is how I atone for your sins." It's action words because it's a command to worship Him.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

👆 New Covenant = Freedom from Sacrifices, Rituals. Holy Spirit is who enables + empowers people to obey, to spiritually understand and to spiritually connect directly with Holy God. Person is spiritually ALIVE (attached to The Living God) OR Person is spiritually DEAD (NOT attached). Think Branch & Vine scripture. Consider this ~ Priests and Priestesses call their “gods” to their alters. Spiritually ingest Christ.

[@Christina-ww2np]

Thank u! God bless u both 🙏

[@Fubizz12345]

I want to thank all catholic brothers for being here and sharing in the word of Christ. Pouring our hearts out to Him in devotion. I was tempted to join the debate but felt convicted and wanted to only say thank you to both sides for loving Jesus with so much heart that we pour over every word and search for Truth that is only found in Him

[@dave1370]

As a Confessional Lutheran, we are far closer to the Roman Catholic view on the Eucharist than to the Protestant view.

[@not_milk]

Just for clarity. You are way closer to the Catholic view than the Baptist view. The Lutheran view is a Protestant view. In fact the real presence in the Eucharist is the Protestant view in most denominations for most of Protestant history.

[@AprendeMovimiento]

I don't understand where Cameron is taking his views from, it seems like anybody can read the Bible and come up with some invented interpretation and find ways to be biased towards that view. Apostolic fathers, and early Church Fathers understood the eucharist to actually be the body and blood of Jesus Christ himself. I also dislike the concepts of "literal" vs "metaphorical" and "symbolic", I find those terms nowadays mean such distorted things that only bring about division and misunderstandings. I see here a discussion between post modern men disecting ancient language through post modern understanding...

[@thereseklopfenstein3398]

How wonderful, in hindsight to be able to watch the Holy Spirit working in Cameron Bertuzzi's life to bring him into the Truth of the Roman Catholic Church!

[@michaelkaiser8694]

Absolutely love this.

[@TimothyBukowskiApologist]

I can't believe that Cameron actually went with Zwinglian argument on John 6:63. Would totally negate the incarnation. Has he read *any* literature that disagrees with him there? That is the 1st stereotypically bad argument against the Eucharist that is shot into the barrel in any defense of it.

[@jonathansoko5368]

I believe that kinda argument is as they say, grasping at straws

[@Miatpi]

Which argument do you refer to?

[@mattvoskul8345]

@@jonathansoko5368 your probably a moabite "Deuteronomy 23:2-4"

[@cristero3616]

Catholic here representing Matt Fradd all day 'ery day!!! Ave Maria

[@donatio1]

Deo Gratias!!

[@kwojtyna1]

Watching now! Welcome 🙏 🤗

[@pdworld3421]

This is a great Conversation!!!! I'm wondering what the protestant response to Eucharistic Miracles are?.

[@GardenMinistry.]

Exactly, they call it the "accidents" of the Eucharist, when it appears to be real flesh, and has been scientifically proven so. Its miraculous, mysterious, and convincing to me.

[@pdworld3421]

@@GardenMinistry. and also the documented account of blessed Alexandrina who lived on nothing but the Eucharist for 13 years.

[@GardenMinistry.]

@@pdworld3421 amazing, i didn't know of it! Thanks for sharing, will research it 👍🏽😊

[@pdworld3421]

@@GardenMinistry. there's a great video on youtube about her

[@BiglariProductions]

@@pdworld3421 where is the documentation?

[@kathrynbregel3166]

When Cameron finally converts and receives the Eucharist for the first time it is gonna blow his mind!!! I, for one, wouldn’t mind witnessing that. I’ve been a Catholic my whole life and they Eucharist still takes my breath away at times. There’s no denying God is truly present and waiting there for each one of us!

[@mitchellosmer1293]

Roman cult contradicts the Scriptures in every possible ways! RCC vs BIBLE 2 1. Catholics say Mary was sinless. Yet BIBLE says Mary offered a sinner's offering. Lk 2:23-24, Lev 12:6-8, Rom 3:10. 2. Catholics say RCC clergies must be celibate. Yet BIBLE says Peter had mother in law. Mat 8:14-15, Mar 1:30-31, Luk 4:38-39. 3. Catholics say Mary was perpetually virgin. Yet BIBLE says Jesus had brothers and sisters. Mk 6:3, Mat 13:55, Mat 27:56, Mar 6:3, Mar 15:40, Mar 15:47. 4. Catholics say confess to priests. Yet BIBLE says confess to GOD directly. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6, Romans 10:9-10. 5. Catholics say drink of the literal blood of Jesus. Yet BIBLE says do not drink blood. Acts 15, Lev 7:26. 6. Catholics say pray to Mary and "saints". Yet BIBLE says do not contact the dead. Deut 18:11, Isaiah 8:19. 7. Catholics say their statues are not idols. Yet BIBLE says do not bow down to graven images (statues). Deut 4, Exo 20:4-5. 8. Catholics say Holy Water. Yet BIBLE mentions nothing about it. 9. Catholics say Peter was pope. Yet BIBLE says Peter was just a leader of the Jerusalem Church. Gal 2:9, Mat 16:18 10. Catholics say there is a seat of Peter. Yet BIBLE says nothing about it. 11. Catholics say there is a NT clergy priesthood. Yet NT says OT priesthood was done away with. There is no clergy priesthood in NT. Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:10. 12. Catholics say work for salvation (faith + good works + partake Roman sacraments + believe in roman pontiff + be in roman cult = to be saved). Yet Bible says “believe in Jesus to be saved”. Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16. 13. Catholics says they must do penance to atone for their sins. Yet Bible says repent, confess and sins will be forgiven. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6. 14. Catholics say Mary went straight to heaven without dying. Yet Bible says nothing about it. 15. RCC says Islam and Christianity have the same GOD. Yet Islam doesn't believe in death and resurrection of Jesus and Trinity. 16. RCC says Sunday is the day of worship, just becaise Jesus arose on that day. Yet--The HOLY BIBLE says the SEVENTH DAY IS the ONLY day God rested on, blessed and made Holy.--Gen 2:1- 3, Ex 20:8-11. Roman Catholicism is full of contradiction and anti Scriptures. Nothing is more evil than a catholic disguising as Christianity deceiving many.

[@Chispaluz]

Also Cam you kept dodging the question that Matt asked you. What would Jesus have to say to convince you that he is truly present in the Eucharist?

[@mikedawson975]

The whole point of a metaphor is that the comparison being made is merely implied. E.g., _"The Lord _*_is_*_ my shepherd"_ (Ps. 23:1). A simile, on the other hand, makes the comparison explicit by the use of the words "like" or "as." E.g., _"The day of the Lord will come _*_like_*_ a thief in the night"_ (1 Thess. 5:2). So the argument that Jesus could not have been more clear is not compelling because if He was speaking metaphorically we would expect to see an absence of explicit comparative terms. You could also argue that Jesus couldn't have been more clear that He is a literal vine when He said _"I _*_am_*_ the vine"_ (John 15:5). After all, He didn't say "I am like a vine," or "The vine represents me." Yet nobody is tempted to take Him literally there. The same logic applies to many of His other obviously metaphorical sayings. Furthermore, at least as it pertains to Jesus' words in Matt. 26, the context appears to clarify that He was indeed speaking metaphorically. After saying _"This [wine] is my blood"_ (Matt. 26:28), He immediately goes on to say _"I will not drink again of this _*_fruit of the vine_*_ ..."_ (verse 29). Why would Jesus refer to the wine as _"the fruit of the vine"_ if, in His understanding, it had undergone a fundamental change of substance and was no longer wine? So the metaphorical interpretation is easily the most natural way of reading the text.

[@IowaRonin]

@@mikedawson975 I think you did the same. You gave reasons why it's a metaphor. However, the question wasn't why do you believe it's metaphorical. The question was... If Jesus was not being metaphorical "how could He have said it more clearly" or "what would He have to have said" to convince you?

[@Dogheadedchris]

"Dont feel bad about not knowing what some of these terms are" Unless you're Catholic and don't know what transubstantiation means :)

[@amazingcommenter]

This came up in my timeline 2 years later. We all know what happened😅

[@Zemirral]

Speaking as an ex-Protestant Catholic: "conversion" is exactly the right term for a movement from one to the other. I forever altered my relationships and became alienated from my Protestant community as I examined the foundations of every single belief we held. It entailed years of careful study, a lot of brutally honest soul-searching, and no small amount of God's grace, and it yielded an entirely new understanding of good, evil, divinity, and the Christian life. If that's not conversion, I don't know what is.

[@AcidAdventurer]

As a committed Christian I agree wholeheartedly. Leaving Christianity and wondering after the beast is definitely a conversion. Also if you believe Romanism of course you'd have to have to call it a conversion because there's no way to be saved outside of Romanism according to its own doctrines.

[@Zemirral]

@@AcidAdventurer You make a compelling argument; I'd better convert back. :P But seriously, I must break the news to you that you're wrong about Roman Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church does not place limits on God's grace - we don't even pretend to know whether Judas is in hell or not. The sacraments-e.g., baptism, confession, Eucharist-are channels of divine grace established for the benefit of believers, but God remains perfectly capable of working outside of those means for the salvation of souls. Paragraph 847 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." If you want to effectively argue with Catholics on the internet, you should acquaint yourself with our actual beliefs. Paragraphs 846-848 at the link below will further detail the Catholic understanding of the Church's role in salvation, and you can read the rest of the CCC anytime for free. www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM EDIT: formatting fix.

[@AcidAdventurer]

@@Zemirral I didn't make an argument for you to convert though did I? From Cantate Domino It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. And from Unum Sanctum Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,‘ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

[@AcidAdventurer]

@@Zemirral it was a warning, not an argument. I can certainly make an argument for the truthfulness of the warning if you'd like though. And I don't blame you for not fully knowing about your own religion. It's very difficult. There are so many different papal statements and councils and you don't really know what's ex cathedra or infallible and what isn't. It's almost as if Rome obfuscates so that you have to rely on her and not on your own relationship with God.

[@Zemirral]

@@AcidAdventurer Encyclicals and papal bulls (such as you cited) are not guaranteed to contain dogmatic teaching. They're part of the ordinary magisterium of the Church, which is not held to be always infallible. Catholic teaching proper generally arises from the long-standing consensus of the bishops on matters of faith and morals, all of which is collected and quite clearly explained in the Catechism that every Catholic is encouraged to study. Once again, I direct you there if you care to learn the truth about the Catholic faith.

[@RGWerd83]

Interestingly enough, as a former Protestant, something dawned on me with the Early Church Fathers; they (St. Ignatius of Antioch for instance) didn’t have the infallible canon of scripture… Therefore, they couldn’t have misinterpreted their way into the real presence. The Patristic brothers would HAVE to have been TAUGHT this!

[@stephenmate2013]

I'm a catholic and I've never thought of the church fathers this way. Without really thinking, I've always thought that the church fathers were commenting on the Bible while in reality they were actually commenting on what was taught to them. This is awesome.

[@pepetorralba5447]

In fact Ignatius wrote his letters on 107 AD, that is 7 years after the John the Apostle died and Ignatius was his disciple or at worst case a disciple of Polycarp that was proven to be disciple of John. So his writings couldn't be closer to the actual source.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Anybody who thinks that any man’s words 🟰 CHRIST’s Words, Think Again.

[@jackieann5494]

Truly Christian men are an indescribable blessing to humanity . Respect .

[@johnnarcum745]

Some thoughts and questions: Hi! I think the Protestant/Catholic debate gets hung up at times on whether a change happens to the elements after being blessed (i.e. does the bread literally turn into Christ’s body?). I take the symbolic view, but I’m not super concerned if one thinks a literal change takes place. For instance, if Catholics just believed the wine turns into Christ’s literal blood, that seems strange and gross, but it’s not as concerning as what the official belief is. My major issue with Catholic understanding on this topic is that Catholics believe both the bread and wine become the body, blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ (i.e. “all of Christ”) and should be worshipped. If the wine just becomes Christ’s blood, would Catholics worship it? I don’t think they would. Same with the bread. So the issue would seem to be that if the elements do not really change into “all of Christ”, then Catholics may be participating in idol worship. (idol worship was touched on in the video). However, is there evidence of an early belief that each element becomes “all of Christ?”Catholics may find early writings that may at least seem to promote a literal change of the elements. I think at least some of these interpretations can be debated, but I think such discussions may disguise the bigger issue. Presenting evidence that early believers believed the wine becomes the blood of Christ is far from providing evidence that the early Christians believed that the wine becomes Christ’s body, blood, Soul, and Divinity. Same for the bread. Let’s say the wine does become Jesus’ literal blood. How does that literally equate to body, blood, Soul, and Divinity? In Matthew 26:26-29, Jesus seems to make a distinction between the elements. If I took a literal view of this passage, I would say the bread is His body and the wine is His blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. This sounds like two different things to me... How do Catholics defend this? (Note: the wording about the wine seems to differ in some verses that speak about this e.g. Luke 22:20) Do you know of the earliest writings that clearly identify both elements as becoming the same thing, “all of Christ” (body, blood, Soul, and Divinity)? Are you familiar with any evidence from the first three centuries of Christians worshiping the Eucharist? Also, if the early Church believed that the elements became “all of Christ,” it seems that early Christian arguments against idols would be weak. I can’t imagine Paul walking into gentile nations and telling them to turn away from idols, but then setting up the bread and wine, praying over it, and worshiping it as God... 

Acts 19:26 (ESV) “And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods.” 

Why would someone agree with Christian attacks on idols if the Christian himself turned and appeared to worship bread and wine? This would not only stir up discussions among pagan idol worshipers, but I would expect it to cause much trouble in the Jewish community as well. If Paul worshipped the Eucharist, I think there would have been many discussions on this, and that there would possibly be written evidence... Don’t you? Is there evidence of such discussions? We have discussion on whether one should eat food sacrificed to idols… Wouldn’t you expect to see discussions on whether worshipping the bread and wine is idol worship? That is, if the apostles instructed believers to do such. It is also my understanding that the Catholic view does not require laypeople to partake of both elements during the Eucharist, but John 6:53 (ESV) states, “So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” It seems that Catholic teaching may clearly go against scripture here. How can one explain this? Sorry for the long message!

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

👆Worship of the Eucharist aka Adoration is done by Catholics. Must be why they genuflect. Don’t know why only wafer, but no drink (except for priest). Priests & Priestesses invoke their “gods” to join their gatherings by speaking / chanting or preforming sorcery aka do magic. Sacrifices are made to their “god” or “gods” on their alters. NON-catholic Christians have Pulpits, not alters.

[@nekelly123]

Matt made very compelling arguments that are very difficult or impossible to refute. How could the Church have unknowingly committed idolatry for 1500 years?! That's totally absurd!

[@BiglariProductions]

Because the church leaders/father are sinful fallible humans like everyone else.. thats how.

[@nekelly123]

@@BiglariProductions for 1500 years? 🤣🤦‍♂️

[@bazzy8376]

right, and an unstable self proclaimed god like Luther was the one to correct it? After Jesus told the apostles the gates of hell would NEVER pervail against the church? He lied for 1500 years?

[@EstudioVoitheia]

@@BiglariProductions The Holy Spirit would allow that?

[@chriss229]

I agree. To believe that the "apostles " of the Apostles would get this wrong, shows a lack of faith in Jesus's ability in picking his Apostles.

[@nicoleyoshihara4011]

Yes to the Eucharist being the actual Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in Catholicism 💯❤💕

[@conorsingleton4213]

At 1:07:05, when Cameron asks "how can Jesus be distributing His own flesh and blood to His disciples while he is still with them," is it not like when he multiplied the loaves and fish where because he is God he can multiply Himself out too, in the sense that like what Matt is saying "we are not eating a part of his hair or his ear, and Jesus is slowly running out," but when those prayers of the mass are said that the bread is transformed and becomes Jesus and His presence is multiplied, like how he multiplied the bread just before the bread of life discourse...

[@Jamesps34]

Love this gentleman’s channel.

[@TheJoshC90]

The God of all that exists became flesh, but he can't be found in bread and wine like He said?

[@beaars6992]

What's sinful is sinful because it separates us from God, and what's good is good because it unites us with God. Now, what can unite us more to Him than eating His flesh and drinking His blood? What can bring us closer to God than having God in us, not only spiritually but also physically?

[@AcidAdventurer]

Except the body of Christ isn't the God part, it's the human part lol

[@beaars6992]

@@AcidAdventurer The body of Christ encompasses His flesh, blood, soul, and divinity, since Jesus is fully human AND fully God at the same time. That's the mystery of the Trinity.

[@AcidAdventurer]

@@beaars6992 this is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo without saying anything. If Christ's body is somehow divine then He cannot be fully human because it would mean His body is somehow different than ours.

[@epicfailure7980]

@@AcidAdventurer I’d be careful there brother. There’s no human part and God part to Christ. The Word is not composed of parts. The Word is fully man and fully God, only one subject, but his flesh is not the flesh of a mere man, but the flesh of the living God. You are affirming Nestorianism if you split Christ like this.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

Spiritual Birth

[@trickjacko8482]

Eucharist made me reconsider going back to the church, it makes sense and no other denomination does it but that's what the Lord invited us to do, it's so obvious. I had a personal revelation in which I was called to Eucharist, that was wild. The Catholic church is the real Church of Christ.

[@polodown4729]

Awesome discussion/debate

[@pixelprincess9]

1:47:46 The reason why transubstantiation isn't idolatry is because the bread and wine is no longer present and Jesus is present. Therefore we worship God and not bread and wine. For this same reason, I am concerned with my Lutheran brother & sisters who hold to both the bread & wine and the body & blood to be both present at once as this WOULD be the worship of actual bread. Aquinas points this out 3 centuries before the reformation in Part 3, Question 75, Article 2: "Thirdly, because it would be opposed to the veneration of this sacrament, if any substance were there, which could not be adored with adoration of latria."

[@bazzy8376]

Excellent point!! That would be idolatry.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

6 Years of Seminary School, but very little is devoted to Scripture. LOTS of Aristotle and Aquinas and Catholicism however. BTW some Early Era Authors were quite Scripture/centered as well as some Early Era Bishops. BUT these men have been dismissed. Hmm

[@mikeoconnor4590]

Two things I think - should be pointed out 1. This teaching regarding the “corporeal” or real presence in John 6 is the very doctrinal issue that Judas rejects Christ on since after Peter says “to whom shall we go - you have the words of eternal life …” John goes on to say but one of them didn’t believe and would betray him. This this is the exact point where Judas rejects Christ - a point that was lost on me when I was Protestant #2. The second point for me - besides the abundance of scriptural evidence for the real presence is the uniform testimony of the early Church on the issue. Ignatius of Antioch who knew John the apostle having been ordained by him - states clearly in his letters that the Eucharist is the “very same self crucified flesh of Christ … the very flesh born of Mary and raised up for our salvation”( paraphrase - going from memory here as I looked into these issues rather comprehensively many years ago). The point being however - how likely is it that a man who knew the apostles personally got it wrong while some Christian thinker 1400 years later got it right? In that regard the symbolic interpretation lacks credibility

[@chriss229]

Well said

[@intedominesperavi6036]

Well said - I thought Ignatius of Antioch was ordained by Peter...

[@mikeoconnor4590]

@@intedominesperavi6036 I don’t remember if that was the case or if it is even known He was definitely a disciple of Saint John So in the generation of Christians who knew the apostles

[@Anyone690]

Cameron! Please read Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist!! I think you will be pleasantly surprised

[@bazzy8376]

Exellent!! Catholics didn't just pull the idea out of their hats.

[@evavanvollenhoven308]

The photo of Matt expresses how I feel when I talk to my Protestant friends...lol... The Frustration

[@firingallcylinders2949]

We Reformed love to argue lol

[@JoshJ12]

Lol I am a Protestant and lean towards orthodoxy but I love my Catholic buddies and love going to some of their youth groups.

[@aadamy]

Augustine said, “Christ held his own body in his hands at the last supper”

[@kevinwynn6582]

Sorry I'm so late to the questions. I subscribe to both of your channels and really appreciate the work both of you are doing. My question is why don't you hear about bad intentioned people trying to steal the bread from protestant communion services? I have seen our priest follow someone all the way to the back of the church to make sure they didn't leave with the Eucharist. In the protestant church i used to attend we passed around plates of communion bread and no one ever tried to steal any for nefarious purposes.

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

Because it's just bread and outside of the context of Communion it doesn't carry any special significance.

[@margokupelian344]

Oh Cameron, you’re such a humble, sweet child of God. I’ll be more than happy to pray for you and I want to ask you to pray for me bc I have the same ailment and I suffer a lot bc of it. May our sweet, merciful Lord touch you with His mighty hands and heal you from your ailment. I don’t feel sorry for myself bc I know that this is God’s will and I’m willing to carry my cross. God has revealed this to me... But you... you’re so young and you have a family that want to see you healthy and doing well. I enjoyed the discussion greatly but I do believe in the true presence of the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. I want to add something that Matt forgot to mention, or maybe he didn’t think it would add to the points he made, but there have been many, many instances when the Eucharist has been bleeding and it was proved by scientists to be a living organism, a heart muscle that has been tortured. There was one that happened to a friend of my friend in Australia when the Eucharist turned into a bloody piece of meat in her mouth. It was lent at the time and she got Jesus’ wounds on her hands and feet and forehead and was in pain for forty days. On Easter Day the wounds were gone and she was totally healed. Unfortunately Protestants do not believe in miracles and in such divine manifestations. I personally had a few encounters with Christ and His Mother. God bless you Cameron. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

[@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc]

You KNOW that (all) Protestants don’t believe in miracles !?!?!?!? Not true.

[@petiemcraggles]

Great discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I would though, suggest to Matt to revisit his learning of the Lutheran theology on the Eucharistic. It is not consubstantiation exactly..