Catholic Answers Focus | Is Hell Unfair? | Karlo Broussard

[@toriak887]

I don’t really get the concept of punishment if not for the point of correction

[@josephmiller3672]

Do you think that some crimes deserve the punishment of life imprisonment? With that punishment there is no chance for a correction.

[@toriak887]

@@josephmiller3672 I usually see it as a preventative measure for potential future victims rather than a punishment. I just don't see the point in punishment without an active prosocial measure. I'm not trying to prove a point or be challenging -- I just personally don't understand, and I want to understand more.

[@iBuzzinga]

These focus episodes have become a highlight of my week in the last couple of months

[@ericleming1734]

I agree that if we don’t repent or change our ways then we will be separated from God.

[@tomaszskorski6596]

THANK YOU KARLO YOU helped ME VERY MUCH

[@DaltonPyron]

I love St Thomas Aquinas (he's my confirmation saint) but this whole line of reasoning is bogus.

[@GenXer82]

How can humans have the capacity to make an irrevocable decision about eternity if we don’t know when we are going to die? Unlike angels, our intellect is limited…we can’t see all of history, for example. Angels and demons had clarity in choosing their fate. Also, after death, we still remain rational beings. I would think (and hope) we would still be able to have one last chance repent, even without a body.

[@kristincalvarese]

Thanks a lot. That was really smart! Great job!

[@phil_boucher]

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins Preserve us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven Especially those who are in most need of Your mercy Amen

[@streamscreen]

No nothing unfair about relentless endless suffering forever and ever for a finite offense from a fallen sinner.

[@josephmiller3672]

No, it's completely just. Just as x*∞=∞, so too, a finite offense against the infinitely holy God deserves infinite retribution in order for justice to be served. Also we all are fallen sinners, but there are repentant sinners and there are unrepentant sinners, The sinners who repent and die in God's grace will for some inexplicable reason get to experience eternal beatitude with the one whom they grieved by their sin, and the unrepentant sinners get what they, as well as all those in heaven, actually deserve.

[@7bag7]

@@josephmiller3672Where does the Bible say that an infinite God requires infinite punishment?? You’re making stuff up or just regurgitating something you heard.

[@josephmiller3672]

@@7bag7 The Bible doesn't have to say something for it to be true, something can be true from following the laws of reason. The punishment an action deserves depends both on the gravity of the action itself, and the person the act offends. For example, murder is worse than assault, and murdering one's spouse is worse than murdering a stranger. Since God is infinitely holy, any offense against Him deserves infinite punishment, per se. But since God is merciful, He offers forgiveness to those who repent, but to those who do not repent, He justly punishes them. I am neither making stuff up, nor regurgitating something I've heard.

[@7bag7]

@@josephmiller3672 Reason? Anyone that thinks torturing another human for any amount of time let alone eternity has zero ability to reason. A human that didn’t ask nor had a choice whether to exist in the first place. No matter how you try to twist it.

[@josephmiller3672]

@@7bag7 A couple things, I disagree with your use of the word torture. Not necessarily because the pains of hell aren't torturous, but because when people think of torture, we associate it injustice per se. Punishment would be the more accurate term to use, and punishment can be just or unjust depending on if it corresponds to the gravity of the crime. The second thing I disagree with is when you say "another human." We have to remember that it's not finite humans punishing finite humans in hell. It's the infinite God punishing finite humans for their unrepented sins.He gave them the chance to choose Him and they refused. Lastly, I don't understand your point about whether a human had a choice to exist. Of course, humans don't have a choice to exist, to choose anything you first have to exist. But God does give us the choice of whether or not to live with Him forever. He's not going to force that upon us if we choose otherwise. But if we choose to not live with Him forever, He will justly punish us for the sins we committed and didn't repent of.

[@chelsmaria]

If no grace is given after death, doesn't that nullify part of the purpose of purgatory and when we pray for those potentially in purgatory?

[@philfrank5601]

No. Souls in purgatory are saved, but need to go through the temporal punishment prior to entrance to heaven. Prayers and indulgences for souls in purgatory reduce this temporal punishment, so we keep praying for souls whom we pray have been saved: in purgatory, or otherwise. God bless

[@Mrm1985100]

Hell is destruction. The wicked will perish and disappear after judgment.

[@ML-yc3tl]

You mention David Bentley Hart, but as far as I know he never advances the argument being responded to - that is the idea that the sin's finite duration makes a punishment of infinite duration unjust. I've read the book twice and the only time he brings up our finite nature is in regards to our knowledge about what we're doing when we reject God. That is, he argues that our culpability for something must surely be tied to our understanding of what we're doing, and that we can never have infinite understanding of what we're doing. Moreover he acknowledges that we can never merit grace. As far as I understand, the argument then is moreso that we can never positively deserve eternal suffering, that justice can never demand it, which would seem to (according to his argument) refute justice as a reason why an infinitely good and loving God would withhold grace from someone, not that justice itself is sufficient to explain why God _would_ extent grace. But I could of course be misunderstanding him. It's also interesting that you'd bring him up without addressing his direct objections to points you're drawing from Aquinas (Such as a soul's inability to change its course after being disconnected from the body supposedly contradicting the idea that Angels can fall from grace). The claim that he thinks people who believe in hell are bad people is also a bit unfair. He does say that most people who claim to believe in hell would be pretty coldhearted to behave in the ways they do, but his conclusion (Whether he's right about either or not) is that most of them don't believe it deep down, not that they're actually that coldhearted.

[@jacoblynam923]

@@ML-yc3tl my man :)

[@graemegeorgeharrison2468]

I believe I have committed the mortal sin, am separated from God and society. I have no warm memories or feelings to comfort me, I live with burning in my head and ringing in both ears. I am very worried. I have had lots of head traumas in my life. Lord have mercy on my soul

[@Random64_]

Don't worry Brother. Go to confession to have you mortal sin forgiven. First look up the 3 criteria's for mortal sin to make sure it is mortal.

[@marlonecorpuz4211]

God is pure evil. No Loving all Knowing all Powerful God needs Hell.

[@adennyh]

Thanks for making and uploading this video. I was pleasantly surprised to learn about the rationale behind this difficult topic. GBU :)

[@jamesflynn4741]

My thoughts: (1) by same logic (of original question) nobody deserves Heaven, who in finite time has merited infinite reward?(2) is it ‘infinite’ punishment for finite sin? Or is Eternity not simply infinite time but outside time, a moment that lasts forever and infinity in a moment? Ie, I don’t think simple math applies . I was enlightened by Aquinas’ distinction about the gravity (not duration) of sin. That of course best answers

[@john-paulgies4313]

Timely Septuagesima topic. Thank you. ✝️ 🔥 ❤

[@scurvydog20]

I accept the church teaching and the permanence of hell, but the objection I can think of for God not extending grace after death is that while it is not unjust it does seem to be a failure of love. Assuming Gods grace is infinite and costs him nothing to give it would be a failure of love and mercy to withhold it. It would be like a parent refusing to donate a kidney because the child sued for independence. In both cases the parent has the opportunity to off something that would repair the relationship but withholds it because of the rejection. I'm not saying this a valid argument bit I can see it be posed

[@philfrank5601]

The failure of love in your example is not God's, but the sinner. Sinners have choices, and a lifetime to make choices. What people are actually looking for here is an 'out', something to allow them to sin yet still receive God's reward for those faithful to his law. The only consolation is the mercy of Jesus, and we have been taught what we need to do in order to dare for salvation. Again, the fault lies not in God the Father's love, but in our love for the Father.

[@7bag7]

@@philfrank5601Whete do you come up with that nonsense? Most people who don’t believe just simply DONT BELIEVE. It’s not because they want revel in their sins. The original poster made a perfectly valid point and you brushed it aside like a jerk!

[@kristincalvarese]

I don't sin from God why am I always being punished in my mind?

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

A father discovers a sink hole in the back yard. He warns his young son to stay away from the hole, but the boy chooses to have a look at the sink hole close up. Sadly, the earth crumbles below his feet and he falls in. His father hears his screams for help and goes to his son and tells him, "I'm sorry you're stuck in that pit but it was your choice to disobey me. I could help you get out but I'm not going to because I respect your freedom. Too bad for you! Oh, and I love you!"

[@Landis_Grant]

God is most fair.

[@maritzaperrault4836]

I get that God’s grace isn’t due but why does he give the grace of repentance to only some and not others?

[@stevefoxrox]

He gives the grace of repentance to all

[@killianmiller6107]

God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

[@josephmiller3672]

God gives grace to repent to all, and to all He gives sufficient grace in order to be saved. It is more a matter of whether or not we cooperate with His grace rather than if or if not He gives grace.

[@kristincalvarese]

They protect us after that!

[@ThomasTuanAnhNguyen]

Awesome

[@LeastBeastHowdydoodle]

This makes mortal sin seem really unlikely to be committed for the vast majority of people. Even for objectively Grave matter. As if you have to really, really, really fight your natural inclination towards God and be a total sociopath basically (examples I can think of would be serial killers, horrible dictators, etc). Or someone who knows the teaching but just doesn’t care. Basically, it seems like if you care about Mortal sin and whether or not you’ve committed it, then you probably haven’t. Am I understanding that correctly

[@rosiegirl2485]

I pray that God gives me that grace..that I certainly don't deserve..I feel like I need confession 3x a day! It's my husband's fault..haha..just kidding! I know....I am the driver of the bus! 🌷

[@daffidavit]

The Bus? "The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis.

[@rosiegirl2485]

@@daffidavit Sorry, I meant that I am the driver of the bus...meaning that I make my own decisions and am in charge of my own actions.

[@kellyblakeborough3371]

What is the point of reconciliation between God and man. Was the crucifixion meant for the few and the rest for a eternal damnation for a temporary life on earth. Sin and death are gone forever and christ done this on the cross

[@frankcastro2022]

What about if one sells his soul to the devil?

[@Davidjune1970]

You can only sell that which belongs to you and God said that we belong to him. So you can’t sell your soul to the devil. Isaiah 43:1 (RSVCE): 1 But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. 1 Corinthians 6:19 (RSVCE): 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; What you can do is put material success before God, where money, power and success become your new idols (things you will devote all your time to and you will always serve at the cost of all else). The devil will fool you into thinking you have sold your soul. It is up to that person to think this is the case. Ultimately anyone who lets the devil into their life for such a transaction has already turned from God.

[@juliusrendon5936]

you can sell it but you can ask forgiveness and do penance GOD IS WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN THE DEVIL

[@ricardopenamcknight6407]

Hmm, it's a very nice attempt, and if hell were different and more ironic I might agree. From all I've heard from Fr Ripperger and a few saints who've talked about it, it's mostly the same generic infinite hot, infinite cold, infinite stench, infinite gross tastes, etc... And where is the privation of God? If God is Ipsume Esse, and hell is separation from God, then how is there existence and being in hell? I mean, I'm pretty sure the flames are just the fires of his wrath. So this idea that hell just means you don't get any God doesn't make any sense. No beatific vision perhaps, but plenty of God, more God than you can stand. If it were just a privation and resulted in utter non-existence then I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. Heaven for the faithful, non-existence for the non-believer, sounds fair. If God were just like "you didn't want anything to do with me so therefore I don't want anything to do with you and so I won't continue sponsoring your continued existence" that would seem pretty fair and reasonable and wouldn't be a spurce of much confusion. Rather, unfortunately, God continues their existence indefinitely in order to preside over their unending torture. Any justification of hell can't rely on the privation argument precisely because God needs to intervene to keep them in existence so they can suffer. I've heard some arguments that any sin is an infinite offense because it's against an infinite being, but it's an infinite being who cannot be hurt, who is eternal and unchanging. And it won't do to say he came down as a man so now he can be hurt, because he gave his life as a sin offering and it doesn't make sense to make a sacrifice to atone for a harm that was only possible because of the provision of the otherwise unneccessary sacrifice. Theoretically our sins are against the glory of God's creation, but that brings us back to a finite harm against a finite creation, and one he's going to chuck for a new creation anyway. And this idea that we've chosen something other than God as their ultimate end... what? If someone is struggling to resist temptation, and their natural urges overwhelm them, and they commit an act of lust, have they "chosen" pleasure as their ultimate end? It's not like they want to indulge in carnal pleasure forever. It's the opposite in fact, they wanted to be rid of such urges and have even prayed to be rid of or at least overcome such urges. Then they temporarily succumbed, that's not choosing lust as their ultimate end. They chose lust briefly as an exceedingly temporal end, only to have God apparently treat it as ultimate why by any human standard it isn't. It's only God cutting them off that makes such an act a mortal sin, otherwise they're not consciously choosing that as their ultimate end. Or, for instance my loving father who grew up protestant and my poorly catechized mother both left prior marriages to physically abusive cheaters, found eachother, and had my brother and I. My mother in particular presumably got a Catholic marriage to her former abuser (not sure because I haven't asked and at this point I'm afraid to, especially after my father's death). So since my parents got married outside the church, the church would consider them to be living in sin and fornication and would consider my mother in particular an adulterer presumably. So, according to the church my loving parents would be most likely going to hell for the grave sexual sin of (checks notes) having a happy loving marriage that presumably wasn't sanctioned by God. Now I'd like to believe he'll take circumstances into account rather than just going by the rules as written, but in the eyes of the Catholic church my Dad presumably already died in a state of grave mortal sin and despite all my mother's prayers, she's had difficulty coming back to the church after my father's death, and since she doesn't understand the necessity of confession she's on a fast track to burn in hell forever too, as are almost everyone I've ever known or cared about, frankly. And I have to desperately do everything I can to pray and mortify and try to get them in the clear for a thin chance that almost everyone I've ever known and loved won't be tortured forever because even though they're all decent and loving folks by human standards, in God's eyes it's not nearly enough to merit anything more than unending fire and disgusting offal in the pits of hell day and night forever. All those people, who didn't even ask to be born into this literally cursed world of cruelty and toil, should be eternally set on fire because they owe an infinite debt because they didn't choose a God who hides his face and lets the devil slip through the narrowest cracks so that evil is 1000x times easier to fall into than a life of saving grace? And look, I'm not intentionally going apostate. I'm willing to believe that God knows something, or many things I don't that, if revealed, would allow all the puzzle pieces to fall into place, but as of now this debt argument appears to me to be woefully insufficient.

[@ashton_gaming8670]

Hopefully one day god changes his rules or thinks about it no hate to god all I have is love for him but hell for eternity is unfair pain and suffering is for eternity is unfair and there should be a time when they can leave hell and not always go to heaven but at least be in purgatory or somewhere a bit less painful. Only the worst should be in hell for eternity the people who have commited the worst crimes such as certain abusers and murderers and people like them. And even people like that if they had bad things to make them like that should be forgiven or atleast not in eternity of pain but not all sins should be pain and suffering and they should at least be aloud to leave after a while if they learn their lesson. Also they should be aloud some breaks in hell not constant 24/7 that’s my opinion.

[@germurtagh7288]

Punishment not punishing big

[@johnkronz7562]

Of course people can receive grace after death. Existence itself is a good given through grace. More, sanctification in the next life requires unending grace.

[@streamscreen]

John Paul II, General Audience, Dec. 27, 1978 - “Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become a man; and therefore in Jesus, human nature and therefore the whole of humanity, is redeemed, saved, ennobled to the extent of participating in ‘divine life’ by means of Grace.” John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 4), Dec. 7, 1990 - “The Redemption event brings salvation to all, ‘for each one is included in the mystery of the redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery.’

[@catherinecox8921]

Wow. So good.

[@kellyblakeborough3371]

I have to disagree with the illustration of the rich man and Lazarus about the chasm being to great a divide. The point of the crucifixion of christ was the reconciliation between God and man. An eternal punishment for a life lived on circumstances of people on earth would definitely be unjust from a omnipotence omniscient and omnipresent God compared to our temporary incomparable life .Christ died for all ti be saved

[@Eloi.Catolica]

💜💜💜

[@kellyblakeborough3371]

If an all knowing God before he created Adam and Eve knowing that through them sin and evil would be the consequences of all peoples would this make God himself a monster for creating a place with an eternal punishment of literal fire for a finite offense against God even though he knew we were doomed for failure

[@philfrank5601]

It's good to know that because God gave Adam and Eve free will, even to the end that they freely chose damnation upon themselves, we too have been given the chance to exercise our own free will and choose God. We all have free will to choose between good and evil. God knew what would happen, but he did not cause it to happen. That's important to consider. God did not bring evil and death into the world, that was the fruit of Adam and Eve's sin. Now that it is a just reality for rejecting God, we have the opportunity to find salvation. God bless.

[@kellyblakeborough3371]

I noticed that you did not choose to write that damnation is a literal place where those who reject God go into a literal burning hell of eternal torment. Or are you suggesting that it is in a sense more figurative language and a separation from God

[@germurtagh7288]

Ps difference

[@urkosh]

I hope St Thomas wrong on this. God is kinder than just and and won't let His children suffer

[@john-paulgies4313]

Kindness and Mercy are not contradicted by Justice, especially in God, in Whom all that is attributed to Him is His one Essence, i.e. Himself.

[@john-paulgies4313]

Further, Matt. 10:38 and others like it insist that we must suffer as children of God. Granted, I struggle with this Mystery myself, but suffering is somehow necessary for true, Christlike Love in this life (thanks Adam 😒 and mea culpa 😔)

[@judeugwu4987]

There are many passages in the Bible that show God being kind and loving, but when we mess up big time, His justice is shown

[@psallen5099]

All people are his creation, his children are only those living in a state of grace.

[@Darth_Vader258]

@@john-paulgies4313 As a cradle Catholic, SIN is just as WORSE as Suffering.