Old judo's solution to turtling

[@TheJoeMan]

Sometimes you're sitting on the beach and somebody attacks you from the side... What the hell is happening in Brazil?!?

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

As a Brazilian I can say that the scenario is pretty realistic, beaches are one of the prime spots for robbery and assault in Rio de Janeiro

[@eduardocharlier7560]

Just regular life, it's quite common, specially in Rio de Janeiro, where the Gracies were. One of the common ways people get robbed on the beach is called "arrastão", a group of criminals goes the length of the beach robbing targets of opportunity, on plain daylight, its so crowded too, when you realise its too late

[@joatanpereira4272]

Os brs spawnaram kkkk

[@ricardokerscher]

BOLSONARO is happening

[@eduardocharlier7560]

@@ricardokerscher yes, while that is true and the source of many problems he is not responsible for any of the criminality on our streets (notice I say streets, not government, all our politicians are corrupt), this type of crime was here for more then 30 years and has steadily been getting worse.

[@SoldierDrew]

Chadi, you truly should recieve an award for your tireless work in compiling indepth research for the history, technique, pioneers and propogation of ALL grappling arts, especially Judo. You're a gentleman and a scholar. Shukran Sadiq.

[@Chadi]

Thank you my friend🙇🏻‍♂️

[@NYTomiki]

There goes my whole game, thanks!

[@nappyheaded]

sup shodothug

[@Chadi]

Recover your guard my man

[@Pvnth-R]

You weren't really playing then hahaha (I'm just joking)

[@fennec812]

I really think ukemi in general probably deserves a video if you're up for it. I feel like it is very much an art within an art and, despite Aikido's reputation, I don't think arguing they don't do ukemi well is defensible. I think one of the pitfalls of making martial arts marketable is that everyone wants to throw *immediately*. Growing up, I really hated Aikido. I had a lot of similar gripes with it commonly found on the internet, but trained it anyway because I *had* to be at the dojo during that time regardless. The solution my instructors came up with was just to ragdoll me for 3 odd years or so. Its an overstatement to say I never performed a throw, but I probably spent 75% of my time just getting tossed around by senior students and instructors. When I trained Aikido at a university in Japan, easily a third of each session was devoted to taking falls. It really does make you better at Judo and Aikido, I'm convinced. Especially when you're taking falls from people demonstrably better than you are. But its not so useful if you never learn to take those falls as your first priority is not shattering on impact. Whereas, with proper ukemi, you can really focus in on kuzushi, where the power is being applied, timing, etc. And that isn't even including some of the groundwork ideas you've laid out here. You can definitely become proficient without great ukemi, but I definitely am of the opinion that its like a steroid for learning technique. Its a shame more places don't teach it up front. I think in Judo it is often, ironically, a casualty of competition. People don't train it beyond the rudimentary basics because you're not "supposed" to be falling anyhow. Weirdly enough, this is one aspect where I think Aikido's general allergy to competition has helped it cultivate some truly exceptional ukemi. That said, I've seen plenty of cringeworthy ukemi displays from Aikidoka, too, unfortunately.

[@graciescottsdale]

Almost becoming a lost art.

[@Chadi]

Will do

[@joshkooga7204]

Had an old judo book..never trained it and it got lost..but it emphasised learning to fall and roll before starting any throwing..has judo changed from this line of thinking?

[@SeanWinters]

​@@joshkooga7204😊 as someone becomes more proficient in Judo, they are encouraged to "take falls" less. As competition becomes more fierce, and you can save yourself a loss by falling on your face instead of /the correct way/, proper ukemi becomes a tradition and lip service, rather than the required training it needs to be.

[@FDonovan1979]

This is a fantastic breakdown and confirms something I was feeling intuitively about the dangers of turtling for a long time. From a self defence point of view in particular turtling makes absolutely no sense to me. I also admire how you connect the fundamental movements that are found across all the Japanese based martial arts. The same concepts are found in BJJ, Karate, JJJ, Judo, Aikido and I often find it very odd in BJJ class for example when key movements(I'm sure it's the same in many martial arts) aren't even discussed. It has a lot to do with a lack of cross training in the Japanese based martial arts which all obviously go back to the same sources..even a hobbyist like me can make that connection, though I have trained in quite a few Japanese arts over the years which is probably why I can feel those connections.

[@Chadi]

100%

[@gx12]

Turtle is 100% necessary for self defence. The main reason people should turtle in wrestling and MMA is to stand back up. Turtling also gives you space to re-guard by inverting or sitting in to a butterfly. If you make a point of standing from everywhere in BJJ class you will expose how good people truly are (or are not) at pinning, mat returns, takedowns, etc. Having two fundamental defensive directions (stand/guard) also allows to you “jab-cross” with your defence. The problem is when you view turtle not as a transitory position and as a static position. You can stall all day long in a grappling only situation but when strikes are involved you have to get moving.

[@Chadi]

I'm talking mostly to the judokas, that turtle and wait for the referee to reset, and those who turtle and lose to g&p. It has its benefits i said in the video it can be used tactically, like the judoka i showed turtles for a split second to role

[@gx12]

Eduardo Telles plays turtle as a path back to guard, it’s almost impossible to actually take his back.

[@gx12]

The danger exists, but so does the opportunity to stand- it all comes down to not staying in turtle too long. Wrestlers in MMA stand from turtle all the time, it’s overly demonized in BJJ and people don’t end up developing a defensive skill set from there (or offensive).

[@ramslovesmetal]

That footage of felipe kitadai is actually amazing. Big win on this video Chadi. Love it.

[@Chadi]

Thank you

[@themetkaf]

Great video! A concept I had never considered before when turtleing in judo. Weirdly, instinctively I have used a variation of this very effectively as a counter to a standing body lock from behind in BJJ. You really take the aggressor by surprise when you take him for a ride on the back of your zempo kaiten ukemi!

[@lukewilliams7526]

Awesome stuff. You really brought some badass resources together to illustrate your thoughts. I would love to see you invest time into really structuring out your arguments so that the verbal presentation, your script, is more polished. Keep talking about martial arts boss I’m here to see it !

[@Chadi]

Thank you Luke

[@covertprepper5957]

Great stuff, thanks Chadi 🙏🏻

[@rvfree1]

beautiful. Is if there were judo/martial arts youtube awards. Chadi should get one.

[@Chadi]

Thank you, these words truly motivate me

[@GoDaveGo]

This omits the value of turtling. The turtle is an instinctive position, which is evidence that statistically, those who protect their soft front are more likely to survive animals/attackers/debris/weather and then have children. The Granby roll (which Chadi calls inverting) is a valuable technique, too, because the turtle doesn’t protect you for long before a smart attacker finds the vulnerable parts (base of your skull, etc). The guard and the turtle are the inverse of each other within the defensive position. In open guard, you naturally apply four limbs to fighting and none to standing up, all the way to one limb to fighting and three to standing up (stand in base). The turtle naturally applies four limbs to standing up, but can go all the way to two limbs fighting and two to standing up (eg, turning into an attacker and grabbing them with your arms while using knees and legs to support yourself and put pressure against the attacker). So really, if the number one task is standing up, turtle does that best (though judo rules don’t emphasize that). If the number one task is to actively defend, guard is better (BJJ rules do emphasize this). So the Granby roll and the willingness to abandon guard if it is being passed and going to turtle are both part of the defensive repertoire everyone should have for self defense.

[@ddg-fi5bp]

I find explosive wrestlers find more success in forcing scrambles by turtling and often get up to avoid ground grappling altogether. But once at a certain level, turtle starts to get one strangled.

[@Chadi]

It can be used (the turtle) to roll and be in a position to put your legs in front which are powerful weapons or take the back rather than give the back of your head.

[@SoldierDrew]

Excellent informative comment. I wish to add that because being pinned on one's back means defeat in wrestling it's natural for wrestlers to turtle rather than roll into the supine guard position. And many Judoka & Jiujitsu players have wrestling background in the U.S.A. we see turtling as a natural response.

[@ignitionfrn2223]

1:50 - Introduction 4:10 - Inverting 5:35 - Turtling as a tactic 7:30 - Ukemi 8:15 - Why Turtling is bad 9:30 - Conclusion

[@MarkMagpusao]

I really like your videos. You often cite your sources/evidence which creates a strong argument for your case. I will try this technique in the future. I am a big fan of Priit Mihkelson, I have used his techniques(turtle, running man, panda/sitting turtle) a few years now. His turtle instructional is not as dynamic as the inversions in this video, but his principle is there. His defense principle is like controlled trenches. It would be interesting for you to do a podcast with him, like your drysdale video.

[@Chadi]

Thank you Mark

[@bobbytate9907]

I'm turtling as i watch this

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Stop.

[@auld_boy]

Nice commentary. There is a time and a place for inverting and it works in the right environment. Great breakdown, thanks form the UK 👍

[@Raadestdude]

Chadi you never miss my man. Keep up the good work.

[@Chadi]

Thank you James

[@Emanuel_careyWX-WRI]

Love the philosophy aspect of channel.. I’ve been judo tossed in tournament, and training, and have either stood up, or recovered to guard.. before knowing this, thanks for the breakdown.

[@Chadi]

🙇🏻‍♂️

[@motherlove8366]

Amazing video!

[@beskeptic]

Outstanding job Chadi!

[@Chadi]

🙇🏻‍♂️🙏🏻

[@bolieve603]

The inversion can be prevented by putting weight on the opponent's hips, but this frees the shoulders. That's why you must know both inversion techniques and the wrestling referees position get up and reversal techniques.

[@Chadi]

Sure

[@luisphilipesilva]

That position it's not called turtle position in jiujitsu if you eard master Rickson , he said guard .. In jiujitsu that position it's called open guard because the opponent it's outside of your legs and your back it's on the floor .. The turtle position in jiujitsu one must have the back turned up to the sky .. at least that's how Royce Gracie thought us ...

[@davidtarantino152]

He’s talking about what you see in Judo rules and when someone is being beaten in a fight on all fours. This is referred to as the turtle position in Judo.Open guard is the same in Judo as BJJ and existed first in Judo. What he’s saying is in agreement with Rickson. Just like the butt scoot is bad for BJJ he’s saying that the turtle position is a defensive position that teaches you to get killed in a actual fight. As the one Judoka at the end shows there’s a better way than the turtle. A roll like Rickson said into open guard.

[@Chadi]

@@davidtarantino152 brilliantly explained

[@luisphilipesilva]

@@davidtarantino152 exactly .. I got it my friend ... I was just trying to understand why some moves in Gracie jiujitsu and judo have different purposes in judo along with the different names when we all came from the same source ... Sorry for my English .. We all came from Judo we (sambo and GJJ ) our knowledge came from deferent masters ,ok , but the our core is mainly Jigoro kano"s Judo ... That's all my Budo brother... I understood your answer... I Just wanted to understand those things, that's all , I meant no disrespect. Osu

[@judovideoz5410]

Amazing work bro, as always. Keep going 🙌🏻

[@Chadi]

🙇🏻‍♂️

[@cavbaron3634]

He must play a lot of dark souls with all that rolling from turtle 🐢

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Great video! :)

[@Chadi]

Thank you

[@gx12]

I am very curious to hear your thoughts on Priit Mihkelson’s turtle as well as his other defensive postures.

[@Chadi]

Sure! Like i said in the video, it can be used in a tactical manner.

[@andresmendoza7940]

You gotta check out his new titling video starting Hitler haha

[@andresmendoza7940]

Turtling* priits video i mean, chadi.

[@bennagel2180]

Islam Makhachev’s fight Saturday, showed some great sweeps/takedowns with judo techniques against drew Dober.

[@darkinc1429]

That o-uchi-gari was fire!

[@mattpowell557]

@@darkinc1429 the change of direction to attack was perfect

[@thedopesickshow]

Which is crazy given Dober's judo background

[@bennagel2180]

spencer Mumpower didn’t realize he had one. I guess it’s just fundamentals sharped to a razor edge.

[@dietrich8820]

Great video as always! Well thought out and presented. I agree with you that turtling to have the referee save a Judoka is something that should be eliminated. That’s assuming we are on the same page. However, I don’t think that this move alone will be enough to stop the usage of turtling in competition. The culture and rules would need to change this. The powers that be in an effort to keep the stand up portion dynamic must also apply rules for newaza to keep that dynamic. The turtle should be penalized in competition if held to long. I think that may help to eliminate it as a saving grace and force Judoka to develop a game around those situations.

[@ermining1]

Great topic! Always wondered why people in comptetions turtled and would just stay there without using the advantage of turtling.

[@Chadi]

In judo it is the worst, they wait long enough for the referee to reset.

[@kalidwapur]

In wrestling the stuff that felipe kitadai does or some versions of it are called granby rolls and they are very practical to get out of a back take or if you find yourself in a turtle position. The standing version is relatively common in bjj and mma Trujillo even used it a few times against Khabib.

[@trevorplaysguitar]

Turtle isn’t prominent in wrestling..? That’s essentially what referee’s position is. If you get flattened out, you work towards getting your hips back over your heels I.e. turtle. There’s a number of reversals from referee’s, some of which work well. One in particular, I brought with me from wrestling and I’ve had huge success with it, even still 4.5 years into BJJ

[@jeirex]

Good explanation Chadi, but I cannot fully agree. While I as a judoka and BJJ brown belt do the same type of roll movement in my Judo randori transitions to newaza and there for your recomendation is still quite valid, doing turtle has fundamental principles attached to it. First, your best defense against a street or any newaza tecnique is mantaining your explosive movement intact and you do this solely by standind up. All fours is the easiest way to standing up while being pressed down by an opponent. If you see Danaher explain the 4 main points of jiujitsu in Rogan podcast you will understand how critical it is for BJJ or Katame waza to take away the explosive movements of your opponent by bringing him down to the ground. Especially in street context, what Rickson says its all very well against one opponent, but that assuption alone can get you on a world of trouble. This is where I believe BJJ guys fail to understand the self defense aspects of Judo and how important it is to be standing up and still have the movement choice available to fight or flee as the situation demands. Kano sensei said in his books that he always had self defense as a top element to retain even when changing judo to a more oriented sport activity. Having said this, Turtle should be seen as a transition movement to standing up or roll to guard if you cant, and not a position to simply be while you defend although you still have some nice available techniques from this position to counter attack.

[@jeirex]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hYXOYYZ-gZmChLM at the 25:00 minute of this video is the old kosen technique example of turtle up

[@Chadi]

I said in the video to use strategically in order to roll through for example or sweep. But not to stall

[@pamphlex]

Granby roll, come from wrestling, often used standing, more on the ground in bjj. Search on youtube, you'll learn easily about..

[@thebigbadwolf904]

Things been around since Japanese jujitsu and even daito ryu Aikijutsu

[@alLEDP]

Yeah and if we look a bit west from japan to china you can see the Chinese kungfu style of dog fighting (forgot the name) which include a lot of berimbolo like movement and is all about using the ground

[@Chadi]

Especially ukemi

[@roflswamp6]

And even before that in yaomachtia and pehlwani

[@rafaelcarrera9436]

@@alLEDP Dog style and other king fu "grappling" styles have rolls that have always been shown to be intentioned as knocking down, or unbalancing the opponent. Extended contact groundfighting is quite foreign to historical Chinese arts. China would not be investing so much into their national judo team, and there would not be the rising spread of bjj throughout China and Korea had their been practical groundfighting techniques worth keeping. This is not a knock at traditional Chinese styles, extended time on the ground just was never a concern, and often seen as a losing position should the fight reach the ground. You can also tell this by so many styles, especially from northern Shaolin, which prizes kicking techniques, emphasizing fast stand ups or a quick kick to the opponent's leg to create distance, or unbalance, then proceed to stand up.

[@alLEDP]

@@rafaelcarrera9436 you have some good points there. But wasn't dog boxing a southern style?

[@elcid4593]

Great video

[@Chadi]

Thank you

[@martinhblake]

From white belt we were trained in moving like rolling making an even circle while spining on the floor. ( judo )

[@rashidmartialarts9513]

Excellent topic

[@Chadi]

Thank you

[@chadelliottfahlman]

Holy cow I need to do that judo back take from side control.

[@superscrub9]

Going to try that move at 4:11 once I can get back on the mat.

[@HakamasMaximus]

Brasilians... always at the beach! lol Always at the ready too! heheh

[@joatanpereira4272]

this comment hits different when you live in Brazil, in a dry area far from any beaches

[@HakamasMaximus]

@@joatanpereira4272 I would agree... I like to think of my personal training is to adapt to my terrain. If I'm at the beach, the sand is demanding and shifting, if I'm in the forest, there are trees and roots and all sorts of things on the ground that I need to be aware of... welcome the training wherever you are and allow it to teach you what it is you need to learn. We are seldom if ever truly attacked in the clean and sterile lab called a dojo. It is there to teach and train principles under controlled circumstances and nature is never under our control, therefore, train, where you are as that, is where you should be. Peace brother!

[@BURGAWMMA]

As a 300lb wrestler with a background in Judo I was a nightmare guardpasser at the local BJJ Clubs until I ran into a wiry National BJJ champion who used this move to great effect... although he could never tap or reverse me he continuously evaded my pass and nearly always regained guard within just a few seconds of inversion... in the unique game of grappling Sports this is highly effective but I wouldn't try it in Asian rules MMA or street fighting because leg strikes to a downed opponent pretty much negate this Theory however it works great in grappling competition and some of the weaker versions of MMA

[@tomjeff1743]

@ 9:25 starting to look like a spladle or split scissors.

[@peupleelu1766]

It's not effect with sakuraba kazushi

[@shoto520]

Berimbolo done inverted to create a turtle position to seize the back in sports. It can’t be helped sometimes. But in mma or self defense, turtling is a no-no.

[@trinidadraj152]

One of my take-aways from this is that it's a lot like boxing. If you have good footwork and keep moving you are hard to hit. In grappling if you have good body shifting and you keep moving at all times you are hard control.

[@quickstep2408]

judo footwork is very effective and fast

[@rafaelcarrera9436]

Please do not confuse roll throughs, which are used in many instances, both offensively and defensively, with intentional extended duration inversions like what we see from the Miyao bros. The clips you showed of Rickson, and the judokas were quick forwards and angled rolls used to quickly provide space, regain position, advance from a neutral or bad position, ect; they were not Jeff Glover-ish 'I'm going to invert onto my shoulders and grip fight your arms with my legs" kind of silliness that Keenan Cornelius is correct to negatively criticize.

[@Chadi]

The inversion of the judoka who passed guard to take the back that's the main example

[@diosdadoapias]

That is what you think but it did not work against Sakuraba. the one standing to kick use his legs which you can kick but if it will feint stepping out and kick your style will not work.

[@Stargazer80able]

Falling and learning how to not damage yourself in that kind of defensive positions and recover, is bread and butter for all the best fighting systems. Learning to "fail" and fall is more of an eye opener than always "winning". In the real world, there is no second place in terms of a serious fight. It may be a knife fight, when you dont have a knife, a succer punch when you are the reciever. But being very aware of behavior and bodymechanics and such, have saved me more than once. You are doing great work Chadi :)

[@Chadi]

Thank you

[@andreneto7898]

I think that this form has two components, one of competition and one of survival. for competition there are rules for it to be made, it is also intended for the protection of the athlete but basically it is a tactic. For survival it is intended to protect the vital organs, which was adapted by the martial arts but in essence it is an intuitive mechanism of any animal, it is used momentarily by instinct to later attack or to escape, its origin begins in the fetal position of the baby, it is in this way that nature developed I think to protect itself, whether in humans, animals or even plants, mentioning that in plants there is no protective awareness. when a person immediately adopts this position, his reptilian brain is momentarily commanding his actions until the moment he thinks he is no longer in danger, this happens so fast that its measurement is almost insignificant. In the martial arts it has been perfected to increase its degree of efficiency, but that before an act of survival the human being no longer has conscious control. For this reason, use this technique if you can call it that, on the street only as a last resort. Excellent work chadi, please continue with that spirit.

[@liammalarky3483]

I'm sure Kazuzo Kudo and Gunji Koizumi covered this kind of thing as part of Ne Waza.

[@Sei1989]

I’m a big believer specially do to MMA that turtle/referees position should be treated as a scramble position. You’re only stalling or waiting for them to overcommit when in turtle. Time to study Philippe Takidai more

[@prasantadebnath1827]

I believe UKIME is a complete judo or bjj. Its just not only brack fall.

[@RazeenRed]

Nick Diaz has used the turtle 🐢 effectively in MMA

[@tomjeff1743]

Why am I watching an ad for a Toyota in Chinese? And that brings up another question, where can I buy a car made in China?

[@mus1cal4ddict76]

I don't see any connection between ukemi and inversion. Both movement have completely different purposes.

[@DominickODierno]

Turtling and then just sitting there is bad, we all agree on that; stalling out the ground game is a black mark on the sport if Judo. However the way this video is narrated it does sound like when you say "turtling" it is giving the impression that you are lumping all uses of the turtle position into the "bad" category. Turtle as a way to get back up is actually rather popular and useful in mma: there are hundreds of examples of the turtle being used to escape a pin and the fighter getting back to their feet. When taught properly the turtle is a great transitional position which gives you the ability to choose: re-guard (i.e. through inverting) or to stand up. To keep them off your back you just need to stop at least one hook, it's not that hard to learn. As far as self defense is concerned: if I'm assaulted while sitting at the beach I can't afford to hang out on my back all day; I'm going to get my legs under me and get back to my feet as quick as possible.

[@m5a1stuart83]

6:20 the first open turtle my Instructor teach me...

[@seandavidr]

this is very similar to a granby roll in wrestling

[@evanburgess8428]

Are you saying staying in turtle? I think Telles and Priit's take on turtle are very functional.

[@quickstep2408]

not if the judoka just stands up which prompts the ref to reset. that's what happened alot of the time in the telles clips. most of the judoka were like, nope that's not how we do things here.

[@Quodge]

The reason turtle exists ‘even in MMA’ is because kicking and kneeing a downed opponent is illegal.

[@DezCP3]

Nah that's rubbish. You're talking wet!

[@kanegibson5479]

This is a very valid point, Turtling was extremely rare in Pride and is in Rizin unless a guy is already hurt and operating in panic mode

[@DezCP3]

@@kanegibson5479 so it exists in pride...

[@kanegibson5479]

@@DezCP3 I mean yeah but people get in all sort of unadvantageous positions when they are concussed

[@DezCP3]

@@kanegibson5479 not just concussed but hurt in anyway. It's a loosing position most of the time and soccer kicks make it more dangerous but to say it wouldn't exist is kind of stupid.

[@rasadismayilov8840]

Old judo best

[@Chadi]

Indeed

[@GRPPLRJORDAN]

I like turtling into a single or double leg

[@valeyard00]

"Even aikido trains ukemi" - are you kidding? Who can do ukemi better than Aikido practitioners? Those guys do flying through the air ukemi one after another, it is a sight to behold.

[@jaymorris3468]

I don't see a problem with any of it, one door closes and another one opens. Great video.

[@Chadi]

Thank you Jay

[@jaymorris3468]

@@Chadi most welcome.

[@frederickmorton275]

excellent video! I have came from bjj to judo and I have came across everyone turtling and as much as this may be a good tactical way out it's definitely not a good habit to have. so I keep inverting to guard after each throw in randori as at least iam still in the fight then and develop good habbit. I like judo ruleset in that it promotes being active and constantly attacking but it's funny how those same rules don't apply to newaza which is used for turtling up and stalling

[@oneDonly]

Lol. I've done this since I was about 10. That was like 1990

[@tomjeff1743]

So I’m in a bar with broken glass or who knows what on the floor or I’m outside on gravel or other filthy ground maybe with some animal droppings or maybe a short piece of steel sticking out of the pavement from a broken parking sign or whatever and I’m supposed to fall to my back and spin around kicking? Hint - The real world isn’t covered in Wrestling mats. And what are the chances I’m going to be jumped while sitting on the beach? And if I’m not looking in their direction how do I know they’re coming?

[@frankbatista]

Man lol you’re must be a nightmare when it’s time to make any decision.

[@thinkordie7292]

old school Judo and Jujutsu looks very interesting - would love for my family to try it. Any books from your recommendation on the subject.

[@Chadi]

Kodoka Judo atemi waza, and canon of judo

[@taylorbee4010]

If anything soccer I've approved that the entire Gracie system can be foiled just by a good jump or curbstomp. Joojeetsu this

[@Flow1987]

Priit Mihkelson had entered the chat!

[@Chadi]

Turtling in a grappling only scenario has it's strategic place, but not when there's striking. Also this video is mostly for the judokas who turtle to stall and get the referee to reset the match

[@pamphlex]

You mix inverting, turtling and different roll in the same bag to talk about skill that have different use in for different situation. How they are different since it is just having the "butt in the air"? Position of the head relative to position of the opponent and direction of the movement. Mainly used to avoid back being taken or the take the back So it can help: Turtling is a static position belly down or on your 4. Inverting is placing the hips higher than the head in a motion that can be reversed. Granby roll is a kind of lateral roll and finally the forward roll. Eduardo Telles use the "turtle guard" from where he actually attack. It's only rules that protect the inverted guard in bjj, in wrestling, they would get slammed before pinned. Same in Judo to attack the turtle Anyway turtling is nowhere a good strategy except judo where it is protected by the rules.

[@blitzthekraken9832]

Inverting is great for BJJ sport. In mma you see people get caught in an invert all the time and a hammer fist reigns down on them. It’s really a more BJJ sport thing. It’s one of those techniques like other sports, where you just say inverting is a sport thing. Like a spinning kick in karate. Though functionally in MMA a spinning kick has better probability of missing and not getting smashed. You miss an invert and bad happens in MMA. Its high risk low reward, It’s why judo to me has more realism to it, cause seldom do you see it. Judo Guys smash ther way in with tons of pressure, that invert is like watching takewondo guys fight throwing spinning head kicks everywhere.

[@MrKahunadog]

How do you spell that Japanese Brazilian Judokas name? Phillip Takedai(sp?)

[@MrKahunadog]

Nvm his name is Felipe Kitadai...

[@harryhirsch8527]

well...I wouldnt show the turtle of McTapout...it didnt work well for him

[@JustSomeGuy69420]

"Sometimes someone attack u so u gotta roll onto ur back" 🤪 Definitely don't pull a foot underneath you and come up to a knee and then stand. Laying down is the optimal solution.

[@rustyshackleford735]

🔥

[@kungfujoe2136]

turteling = evlution to being a competition sport

[@sharkfinnigan]

When I white belt gets a KZbin channel.

[@Chadi]

When a comedian gets a comment section

[@chadelliottfahlman]

Ah so the turtle can he used aggressively to either take the back or get your legs in front of you

[@debraco7748]

the old photo of the open guard from the game of ju jitsu on the thumbnail you're using isn't judo guys. Miyake didn't have jack shit to do with the kodokan. He was a student of Tanabe at the Handa dojo in osaka, among others. Ono, who ran academies in London and Asheville, NC with count koma, claim to fame was ONCE defeating miyake of the handa jiujitsu school in a high school meet.

[@Chadi]

Do you know how of the Handa curriculum is from the kodokan??? Almost all of it

[@debraco7748]

@@Chadi that's fucking hilarious! 99% of kodokan newaza came from the handa guys kicking their asses in the "schoolboy" meets. Why the fuck else do you think ono, 5th dan judo, used that as his main advertisement. Look up Tanabe, there was no newaza at all in kodokan judo before their losses to him.

[@debraco7748]

@@Chadi is this part of a stand up bit you're working on? Because it's goddamn hilarious

[@Chadi]

@@debraco7748 no argument, only ridicule, I'll completely dismiss this

[@debraco7748]

@@Chadi Did you miss the part of Handa dominating the schoolboy duel meets, the part about Tanabe defeating the kodokan guys. The part about the kodokan adopting newaza in self defense, as they were losing constantly. Pointing out your statement is ridiculous and you have no idea about what your talking about isn't ridicule. Most of the people who watch this have no fucking idea about anything either and they'll believe your bullshit.

[@joeleto882]

Rickson Gracie ganó muchas peleas porque seguramente sabia Judo ademas de Bjj , para mí es como hacer trampa y no hace Bjj puro

[@myhandlehasbeenmishandled]

note to self - Don't go to a beach.

[@Karen-fs6lf]

Royce gracie turtled to matt hughs

[@Chadi]

I'm against it

[@Karen-fs6lf]

Me too but when u are overwhelmed. On the ground .you will turtle.it took me years not to turle but it is very difficult not to when you are getting mauled

[@Chadi]

@@Karen-fs6lf i agree, i learned the hard way, it was maybe my second bjj session before even starting judo, had no idea what grappling was , i got mounted turtled instinctively took an rnc, my Adam's apple felt like it got crushed couldn't swallow properly for a week...never again did i turtle.

[@silencio5184]

I feel like when you have been doing bjj longer than anyone else who the hell is giving rickson promotions lol god?

[@fredazcrate4362]

🤔💯👌😆

[@Chadi]

🤙🏻

[@tomjeff1743]

If somebody seriously wants to hurt another person they aren’t going to go at them empty-handed. And they aren’t going to give them any warning.

[@lulimas]

Well, if you going to think like that its better dont even bother to train at all. If someone wants to really hurt you they will just shot you from behind, so whats the point?

[@proteus2103]

Ah Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, the art of being a coward.

[@anthonymckissic4146]

Really dude? 🙄

[@proteus2103]

@@anthonymckissic4146 Really. It needs to be said

[@quickstep2408]

@@anthonymckissic4146 well what's more manly? punching someone in the face, throwing someone, or rolling around on the ground showing off your ass or spread legs to your attacker? come on man...

[@luchador1764]

Using a Rickson Gracie self defense video to explain why turtling should not exist in sport grappling matches does not make sense. Self defense and grappling are two different things. It's not a direct 1:1 comparison. Turtle is a fine home base bottom position in grappling. I do think that people are not using turtle to it's fullest potential though.

[@Chadi]

Rickson's the right example, as in take self defense into consideration

[@luchador1764]

@@Chadi Why?

[@taylorbee4010]

To be fair I'm not really that good at Gracie jujitsu and I'd probably lose to a Gracie in a match but why would you lay on the ground versus a standing opponent? Not in MMA in real life why would you ever do this. Edit however using a grounded version of the Wayne Sunkist and kicking his kneecaps in his precisely what five year old me would do to somebody whenever anyone tried to tackle me

[@andyperkins2523]

Invert on the streets and get destroyed. Rickson Gracie is teaching selfdefense not competition jiu jitsu.

[@ardaonen260]

To be honest I think this video is entirely misleading, an entire discussion on how a deeply defensive position like turtle is "bad" is like making a video on why bottom mount is bad. And to go all this time trying extrapolate judo ruleset turtling to BJJ ruleset turtling and mma/street situations without mentioning the huge influence rulesets have in each of these areas is just stupid. People turtle in bjj as a last resort to avoid having their guard passed, when they would rather risk their back getting taken rather than having points scored against them for a guard pass. People turtle in judo as a easy option to avoid getting pinned, turtling in judo is highly safe as shown in the video, the opportunity for a successful attack against a turtler is so low that, as shown in the video, the people Felipe Kitadai are turtling against are often barely even trying to attack at all, they are merely standing over him waiting for the ref to stand them up again. This is irrelevant for bjj or striking contexts. Oddly enough, for all this talk of "combative, real, self defense", there is a tremendous lack of any mention of the key premise of turtle position: standing. back. up. This is of utter irrelvance in sport bjj, due to the scoring, mats, inability to strike or slam, as well as judo, due to the ref standing up both fighters after brief time on the ground. Standing up is of high importance in mma, and paramount importance in an environment involving strikes, slams, your opponent's friends, and concrete, for obvious reasons. Folkstyle wresting, due to the risk of rear naked choke being 0.00% due to being illegal, dominates the game when it comes to techniques for getting back up, and turtle/referee position is crucial for mma. Obviously, if you have watched derrick lewis get up, it is clear he never does it from open guard. He uses turtle ->quadpod-> standing, straight out of day 1 folkstyle stand up technique. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJPPp2WPjp2Brpo&ab_channel=BJJSCOUT Many, if not most stand ups that occur in mma that don't involve the cage, (and are therefore most extrapolatable to street/combative/real situations,) involve turtling (underhook escape to turtle from side control), straight out of folkstyle wrestling. Trying to take someones back while they are standing up is very high risk in a context involving striking, slamming, and concrete. Turtling against anybody besides khabib is probably your best bet to try and get back to your feet, certainly not rolling back to open guard, like this video recommends. Ones ability to stand up from a guard position is low, especially on a rough outdoor surface with a high coefficient of friction that prevents shrimping, cutting an angle, or general guardplay. Getting stack passed in closed guard in a padded sweaty slippery bjj mat is one thing, getting stack passed with your back and spine on a muddy rough gravel alleyway is entirely different. Similarly, getting back to open guard is not a good way to get back to your feet. See derrick lewis. Fundamentally, turtle is not something that needs, (or even can have) a solution, and while the technique of inverting from turtle to open guard is very cool, this video misses the point entirely.

[@Chadi]

Why did you go and write an essay based on false premise??? I particularly said this is mainly for judokas who turtle to stall and get the referee to reset the match. And later in the video I say that the turtle can be used strategically, but this is mainly for judokas who turtle and stay there.

[@ardaonen260]

@@Chadi 2:35 you talk about mma, and turtling for mma fighters, 10:09 you talk about real, combative self defense angle. This video is clearly not just about judo, and the turtle/fetal position is universal to humans, not something specific to any one martial art. Even if the premise of this video was for judo, you still are trying to apply turtling techniques across rulesets without considering the affects ruleset have on the techniques, and because of that (and other things), you painted an incomplete picture of turtle as a technique. Again you made no mention of standing up.

[@Chadi]

@@ardaonen260 how many ground and pound ko ended from turtle in MMA??? They call it the biggest gift from your opponent for a reason, not everyone is using it to stand back up, in fact the majority use it when they ran out of options. Rolling to restore guard is rarely done from judo til MMA.

[@ardaonen260]

@@Chadi That's like arguing that bottom mount is a bad position and everyone should just shrimp back to guard. It is so obvious that it's meaningless. Of course people lose fights from turtle, but its also the best option if there aren't any other options. By arguing that turtle is bad you're basically arguing that people shouldn't lose fights. So many mma back attacks fail because the person on bottom stands up, and you ought to have mentioned that in the video.

[@H33t3Speaks]

Stomp. Stomp. Stomp. Your art is absolute fucking make believe.

[@frankbatista]

Huh? Judo is make believe? Jiu jitsu?

[@quickstep2408]

@@frankbatista most likely referring to bjj and its silly ground mentality in self defense. judo can easily hold its own standing up

[@de0509]

Imagine if youre being attacked and your survival instincts tells you to drop to the floor and point your butt at the attacker. That is how the BJJ do (read in a zefrank style narration)

[@quickstep2408]

yes, it's the natural reflex to do something like that or pulling guard. you will most likely revert to techniques that you have drilled thousands of times so there is a very good change a bjj person would do something stupid like that out of pure reflex. dangerous mindset for self defense

[@de0509]

@@quickstep2408 in the early UFC fights, there were very little rules. Jiujitsu won. In a self defense situation, youre fighting average joes, not Nurmagomedov. Most people you meet on the streets probably arent that good with grappling. I once got in a fight where after being thrown to the floor, the dude tried standing up by getting on all fours with back towards me. Suffice to say I exploited it very well. Any average BJJ person would probably do fine

[@kingigzorn7680]

This whole BJJ Turtle/Guard BS only works when you are alone with your enemy. Useless in a real situation

[@quickstep2408]

you might be able to use it in prison. aint nobodys bich lol

[@aasserelzoghby6781]

First

[@Chadi]

Congratulations !