Charlie X Vaggie: Main Couple Syndrome

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[@SarcasticChorus]

Thoughts on Chaggie?

[@roogtisserie]

they seem like a wonderful pair of friends😃

[@bellstomato9844]

Cute, but boring

[@zecaneca3774]

Historians will say they were best friends (and none of us would be able to disagree)

[@hitmantyson]

Some of it could be written better, but it looks like a lot of people came into it expecting it to be one way, and are upset that their headcanon did come true. Chaggie has an overall beautiful relationship of love and support, and both of them raise each other up. They're not perfect, and individually, they're both flawed, but it seems some people are confusing them as being flawed as a bad thing on writing. Some of it is not excellent writing, but overall, there's nothing wrong with writing flawed characters. Imo, they're relationship is pretty good to good

[@ARandomEliatrope]

boring as hell honestly. Wanted a little more from them.

[@Orochimochi1]

The "Vaggie unsuccessfully talks Charlie out of something" started in the OG Pilot! She literally tells Charlie not to let Alastor in, and Charlie IMMEDIATELY lets him in!

[@dapperdabber13]

she also tells her not to sing and she sings lol

[@thewalrus45]

Yeah Chaggie's dynamic has been... pretty established for years now and is basically the same in the show as it is in the pilot.

[@Adam-326]

Hey, she told Charlie not to make the deal and she didn’t make it, so there’s that.

[@LadyLeomon]

@@Adam-326you haven’t watched Episode 7/8 yet have you???

[@Adam-326]

@@LadyLeomon I’m talking about in the pilot. Vaggie wasn’t there to stop her in episode 7.

[@Baby0rang369]

I wanna know who the idiot was at the office to think 8 25 minute episodes for one season was a good idea

[@valentinkambushev4968]

The same idiot, who canceled "Inside job".

[@roxycauldwell544]

I think it's just a classic case of corporations trying to save money. I'm pissed too, these characters have so much personality. I REALLY wanted to see Angel's shady mob side more, and see him really start to embrace a change slowly. But NOOOO

[@plantcrone9662]

That is enough time to make a good story. It's vizipop fault for rushing

[@TheDaxter11]

The same person who decided that this should be the case for damn near every show for the past few years.

[@MonsterPrincessLala]

​@@plantcrone9662 This is true. There's a lot of reveals that could've been more spread out since they were already signed for 2 seasons when they started

[@sarahryan8224]

I feel the lack of presentation of Vaggie’s personality is what limits their relationship. Charlie is the “optimist” and Vaggie is the “knight”. Charlie being challenged with heaven’s rejection kinda allowed us to see another side of her but Vaggie feels like Charlie’s “second voice” like the equivalent of shouting “yeah” to agree :/

[@catus-cactus]

You mean a yes man

[@sarahryan8224]

@@catus-cactus exactly

[@christopherauzenne5023]

yeah I think in part that's do to how much the first season tried to cram in story wise (establish the hotel, establish the other overlords & the exterminators/who murdered the angel, going to heaven, then a big fight against adam), if they just had season one focused on establishing the hotel in hell and finding people who genuinely want to work/be in it, then they could have had way more time to flesh out vaggie and her relationship with charlie

[@laurenthomas7074]

Such a great point, I hadn't thought of it like that

[@Victoria-_]

Yeah

[@heiress.]

I just realized that Vaggie is Pearl from Steven Universe if she never learned self love.

[@Barakon]

When you do worse then Rebecca, then you’re fucked.

[@emn2375]

@@Barakon I don't even think Rebecca was bad tbh.

[@Adam-326]

Not really? It’s not like she hates herself or anything. She just worries about what would happen when Charlie finds out her secret. The longer she goes without not knowing, the worse her reaction would be.

[@Pinkywinkykinky]

husker literally says she hates herself@@Adam-326

[@Adam-326]

@@Pinkywinkykinky Okay, and? Angel literally said that he was fine and didn’t need help. What I’m saying is that Husker was making assumptions, which can be (and most likely are) wrong. Vaggie, as far as we can tell, doesn’t hate herself.

[@lady_magnoliauwu1169]

My biggest problem with chaggie is that Vaggie becomes a WAY more interesting character when she's interacting with other people , AND I HATE IT 'cause Vaggie is one of my favorite characters , but she never gets to DO anything relevant when she's with Charlie ( Charlie has the exact same problem for me)

[@lady_magnoliauwu1169]

btw i'm a Chalastor shipper

[@rubyquaix]

I think this is actually good, showing that Vaggie doesn't need Charlie to be an interesting character Just because they date doesn't mean everything about them needs to be about their relationship

[@lady_magnoliauwu1169]

@@rubyquaix it is a 100% , don’t get me wrong . The issue for me is that by consequence I’m not interested on seeing them on camera together

[@user-rf9co2ge7l]

Maybe Vaggie to Charlie is somewhat the “Millie”

[@MonsterPrincessLala]

​@@lady_magnoliauwu1169 this is fair. I feel like they only made him aromantic ace because they knew the pilot set these two up with more chemistry. It's also probably why we get that weirdly forced dad don't early on that feels or if left field

[@quentinclod5129]

Tbh as someone who watched the show without outside context I didn't even know they were dating. I thought Vaggie had a crush on Charlie and she didn't reciprocate and thought of her as a friend. Until someone told me they were established being together .

[@bluesoda6379]

That would've been a very interesting dynamic :o or maybe at least more interesting than what we have in the show. But then again, with the whole deal of vaggie not the noing of herself as more than charlie's armor, i'm scared that might've been just pearl/rose quartz again

[@pinkbubblesnake]

I expected them to get together during the show, until she introduced Vaggie to her Dad as her gf 😅 Give us more Vaggie screentime where she gets to shine on her own

[@IntrinsicEpiphany]

Ugh they sleep in the same bed in their room in the hazbin hotel.

[@caitlynvoice5129]

Charlie introduced Vaggie as her GF to her dad, though?

[@quentinclod5129]

@@caitlynvoice5129 This thought process was when the first two episodes were the only ones watchable.

[@JadoDog]

I forgot that they were a couple until their love song tbh.

[@kchio_]

i literally didnt know they were gfs until i saw someone on twitter say they were

[@js66613]

Pffft. It took me until Charlie told her dad that Vaggie was her girlfriend to at all see how they were anything more than friends in execution. Like the whole supportive couple shit could've been just as much applied to besties or sisters.

[@akanesaotome5924]

With is also the same song Charlie was singing with her dad. They didin't even care enought for this couple to make a new song. 😂

[@jessecasalguero252]

I thought they were friends

[@randompromises1038]

Legitimately could not have told you they were dating when I first saw the pilot. Compare that to Helluva Boss where Stolas and Blitzø (friends with benefits who both have a mutual crush on each other) and Moxxie and Millie (married) had established their relationships with each other within their own pilot. You knew immediately Stolas was horny for Blitzø and you knew Millie was very overprotective of Moxxie. Vaggie and Charlie just ain't it, which sucks bc I kinda like them, but it's hard to enjoy their dynamic because there isn't MUCH OF IT.

[@jamman-th7zu]

Still can’t believe how short the release span of this show is

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Be thankful the network didn't cancel it!

[@kingofflames738]

Could have been worse. Netflix might have shot out the entire show within an hour.

[@Hazbinhub765]

Fans can't wait for one episode each week

[@MonsterPrincessLala]

They desperately needed a full 13 episodes

[@ifeeldead463]

​@@MonsterPrincessLala 13 episodes getting to know the characters better, then season finale is Charlie and Vaggie getting the invite to heaven

[@brielleelise9558]

3:54 "If comfort is your kink, go crazy with your cottage-core-loving-self." I'm crying. 🤣

[@mayulee1798]

The fact I read your comment right when that was said, I'm crying 😂

[@mercury9765]

I feel called out

[@ninab.4540]

I mean. Let them be boring. Let them be cute. Not every WxW ships needs to have misunderstandings and drama. And heck we got the drama with the angel reveal. I just wish they were a bit more cute and affectionate.

[@raptor_redd]

I'm hoping Vaggie will get a "learn who I am without you" arc in season 2 that helps flesh her out more. I love her exasperated team mom energy with the rest of the cast.

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

Yeah because they definitely missed it in 1st season.

[@Jaakei]

I mean just look at Millie from HB :/

[@theunknowncommenter725]

I really want to see her go on a redemption arc and make a triumphant return to heaven as an angel again.

[@tadesubaru1383]

Bob and Linda from bob's burgers are 90% about supporting each other too. But they're interesting because of how dramatically different they are personality-wise, which complement each other perfectly

[@roxycauldwell544]

I mean, Charlie and Vaggie are a yin-yang couple trope. It's just bad writing I think

[@tadesubaru1383]

@@roxycauldwell544 Exactly what I implied, they don't complement each other well enough

[@ajjean2720]

I think the appeal for Bob and Linda is that they are their own person. Like they can be on their own, so when they do come together, it feels special because you know they’re together because they want to be together not because they have to be together. For the M&M on Helluva a boss, their relationship works because of how they both feel dedicated to one another. If one gets hurt or goes missing you know that the other is going to do everything in their power to ensure their safety. They both adore each other and it’s sweet. However, for Hazbin Hotel, while Vaggie’s love and focus is on Charlie, Charlie’s love and focus is in the hotel. It also doesn’t help that Vaggie’s whole character arc revolves around Charlie. It makes it feel like Vaggie NEEDS to be with her instead of wanting to. Because without Charlie she’s not much of a character. She’s basically tethered to her. The thing about Charlie is that while she’s a loving and caring girlfriend, she’s loving and caring to everybody around her. That’s why all the romantic moments fall flat because she treats her friends no different than she treats her girlfriend. Honestly I didn’t even know they were a couple in the pilot episode for months and that energy carries on in the show.

[@tadesubaru1383]

@@ajjean2720 SO TRUE BESTIE

[@draykohunter6805]

​@@ajjean2720👏👏👏

[@valentinkambushev4968]

I can't tell what's worse: waiting an entire series for a ship to happen, or for it to happen before the end, only for the couple to be toxic at worse, or uninteresting at best.

[@roo1014]

They're neither

[@cinderelenn]

bro they literally just act like a normal couple, usually couples arent all kisses the entire time

[@atilamaldonado8944]

Or in others esscenarios they just broke up or the ship doesn't become interesting anymore

[@person8064]

​@@cinderelenn kinda what makes it uninteresting

[@snakesareamazing]

They're really not toxic at all

[@misse2802]

I have 4 problems with Chaggie: 1- The lack of chemistry. I watched the pilot years ago when it came out but only realized they were a couple DURING EPISODE 2. They don't look like a couple at all. Best friends or sisters, at best. 2- The fact that Vaggie, being a fallen angel, knew the hotel was doomed to fail. She knew angels would never let sinners into heaven and that angels were as terrible as sinner. And yet she repeatedly watched Charlie try and fail. 3- We learn in episode 7 that Charlie rescued her after Lute ripped her wings and eye, but you're telling me that in the past 3 years she never asked Vaggie where she came from or how she ended up like that? One last thing, this couple would be way more interesting if Vaggie had feelings for Charlie but was scared of telling because of her nature and her fear to be rejected.

[@justausername5749]

Exactly! And I hated how they basically never actually talked things out in the second to last episode. Here’s the muddled sequence of events: Charlie finds out that Vaggie was an exterminator. Charlie cries about it and is cold to Vaggie for a minute. Charlie talks to Rosie about the situation. Charlie forgives Vaggie. There’s literally NO scene where this couple takes a moment to breathe and to talk over the situation themselves, and that’s a problem. Vaggie never has a moment where she properly apologises to Charlie for the deception and lying, and Charlie barely has any time where we can see her process her emotions regarding Vaggie’s past. This would have been an interesting hurdle for them to surpass, but it just falls flat, and Charlie just forgives Vaggie in an instant despite them not even talking over it?? How am I even supposed to pretend like they’re a couple when they literally have 0 heartfelt scenes where they’re alone together (aside from a 30 second song before the battle)? Charlie has had more of these scenes with Alastor, Rosie and Lucifer than with the person she’s “supposed to trust most”. Jeez.

[@misse2802]

@@justausername5749 After the reveal, I legit thought they were gonna be appart until season two. I audibly chuckled when they got back together

[@azoreaneve4777]

Charlie is so stuck in her own head that I can 100% believe she either didn't ask Vaggie about her origin, or did once, and accepted at face value whatever vaguely believable lie Vaggie told her. That's her thing, she trusts everyone and would never consider that someone's circumstances would lead them to lie like that.

[@toldya4654]

​@@justausername5749Yes! Like Vaggie's reveal was so big to Charlie but it felt so skipped over the next episode. "Oh you're one of the people that killed my people, welp that's okay let me just talk to someone that's NOT you and we'll be good." Hopefully next season it'll be better

[@rinyaskyline]

​@@justausername5749 honestly, the fact that Charlie has more chemistry with just about every person she's held in extended conversation with in the show is really sad. They don't have to be gooey to each other all the time, but they're most tender moment was literally in the finale of the show, and the first kiss we ever saw was in episode 6! A little kiss on the cheek as Charlie leaves, or Charlie calling Vaggie some pet names rather than Vaggie calling her hun or babe (also missed opportunity for some Spanish pet names like Mi Amor or Cariño), something that makes it feel like they're actually in love and not like they only dating because everyone assumed they were after they'd been friends for a while 😔

[@Kittyboi.]

Chaggie was honestly much more likable in the pilot, like I actually shipped them in the pilot! In the show I couldn’t care less about their relationship.

[@Vaggiescoochsniffer]

His makes no sense considering in the pilot nothing happened between them 🤔 stop making things up

[@battery_eater]

​@@Vaggiescoochsniffer Its literally them calling each other babe and Vaggie being supportive while Charlie cant contain her excitement. Like. Its kinda cute.

[@MonsterPrincessLala]

Really? I feel like Vaggie had no lines in the pilot

[@Kittyboi.]

@@MonsterPrincessLala it was more the way they interacted with each other.

[@battery_eater]

@@MonsterPrincessLala She had plenty wdym watch it again. She talks to Charlie, lectures Angel, teaches Angel about Alastor, threatens Alastor, talks to Charlie about not staying with Alastor, and fhen just stays grumpy. She talks way more than Nifty at least-

[@mr.shreddergaming1940]

When is the Ship of Alastor and his Gigantic Ego coming?

[@dapperdabber13]

U honestly want him to talk about Radioapple. THAT ship has POTENTIAL.

[@bluesoda6379]

This comment is so good, holy 😂

[@nemoys_]

Second this one^^

[@catherinemoon1244]

@@dapperdabber13 No, it doesn’t. Alastor is aroace(at the zero side) and he has been said/shown to be repulsed at any advances.

[@snowzing133]

​@@catherinemoon1244​ Dude, I think he was joking. Besides, asexual people can still engage in sex, romantic people can still date. It happens and it does not change that they are either more, it instead means they're mostly uncaring to it. And I think a lot of people would be disgusted when someone they don't want to engage in sexual activities with talks about doing such things to you, along with being uncomfortable when you're put on the spot being told you should do something with someone you don't like or want. It's uncomfortable when that happens. Especially when it goes past a joke and becomes super reoccurring to the point of peer pressure. Im not saying Alastor is getting peer pressured by others to date or even engage in sex with another person, but he is definitely disgusted by lust filled actions. Aside from that, there's generally no harm in imagining fictional characters in relationships, unless you uncomfortably force it upon other people and break boundaries, there's more to relationships, dating or otherwise, than just romance and sex. And there's multiple ways a group of people can interpret one character. By having head canons upon this one character, we are not hurting a real person. And if you're hurt by one person interpreting a character differently than you, than you're kinda over sensitive and should get over it. The world is not going to morph around your ideas and it is unfair to think it will

[@ThisIsNotMyUsername]

It's all about balance. Too many filler episodes can be boring, but they have purpose. No filler makes the story rushed, which makes reveals and story points meaningless because we don't care enough about the characters.

[@Wings002]

☝️This

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

Yeah it definitely could’ve used 1-2 fillers showing events between the episodes. Even as someone who’s invested in the characters it feels like we should’ve had an In between.

[@ismeza76]

@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane honestly they could have done it like ATLA with their filler episodes still kinda being relevant to the plot as they are following their goal through travel, just happen to pit stop and find random characters/situations now and then, but its not like its a complete pause to the whole mission. for Hazbin they could have had a filler that still was relevent to the plot and makes sense on why its there, but be enough away from the main story that u can take a breather and just enjoy the adventure with little consequence or worry

[@kingtut6243]

That line Vaggie says in episode 3 struck me so hard. "If I can't help you, what's the point of me?" I distinctly remember hearing this line as the first moment I became genuinely interested in her character. Like I was so sure they were going to explore the implications of this, and the obviously insecure sense of self worth it implies. I was so convinced Vaggie's arc was going to be about finding a sense of identity outside of just helping Charlie. And then we saw her backstory, where it showed her as an executioner from heaven similarly executing *someone else's* plan rather than acting out of her own individual agency, ideals, ideas, etc., and it just felt like everything about her character centered around her lack of independence. Suffice to say I was beyond disappointed when not only was none of this explored in any depth, but they actually just DOUBLED DOWN on identifying Vaggie with what she does for Charlie. Instead of defining the conflict of her character with the fact that her self worth depends on how well she can fight for Charlie, the climax of her arc is just about how she's just been fighting for Charlie the Wrong Way (Out for Love song). It just feels like they completely blew over what was being set up for her and it was so insanely underwhelming

[@js66613]

Yeah, I think Vaggie should learn to act for herself before being in a relationship, and the fact that she's THIS self-sacrificing doesn't feel healthy, it's just more subtle than the toxicity of Stolitz so people don't pay much attention to it. It honestly makes me feel bad for Vaggie. I think if we got that arc, instead of just a couple songs... she might've been a better character for it, and Chaggie might've been a better couple for it.

[@Sanakudou]

I totally agree! Rather than doubling down on Vaggie’s codependency, the show needed to set up that Vaggie’s relationship with Charlie enables her independence, rather than inhibits it.

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

@@SanakudouYeah I agree with this criticism, she’s kinda like Millie but without the individualism. She tends to be a supporter rather than taking the initiative, and even when she does it’s generally still generally with the same supporting mindset.

[@Comet346]

Agree, I hope she gets more character development and we get to learn more about her. We got more development on Angel dust than Vaggie who is literally one of the main characters!

[@Comet346]

She hasn’t even got her own song without a duet or her own episode

[@aaunyea4799]

They are the white bread of yuri. They are a couple, it's okay, but I'm not running to obsess over them like i am with other sapphic ships i love

[@js66613]

"White bread of yuri" xD Apt description, though.

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

They’re cute, not a ship you’d go crazy over but still nice to see.

[@juanafigueroa3881]

You have 69 likes lol​@@js66613

[@liltmarshall8717]

I literally only jumped on the Chaggie train in the finale when they sang "more than anything"

[@mirkohoble]

Lucky you. I can't even with that *very short* song.

[@nikkifri1150]

The song made me cry, but true it was the first time I really felt they were a couple

[@jasminkrieger8464]

Im not a chaggie shipper but i accept that its Canon so

[@ElJorro]

me too

[@theunknowncommenter725]

To me it was a tragedy. I wish I was Vaggie had a great desire to return to heaven, and Charlie was willing to help her. But no, we get scissoring instead. That's what happens when your show is commandeered by writers that are shallow and superficial.

[@arpandey698]

Chaggie is like PB&J, not groundbreaking but good and always serviceable.

[@IForgotHisNameTheFrogDude]

Noooo verbalase x Charlie=better😡😡😡

[@surrcram]

The peanut butter is dry, and the jelly is runny. Not even a good PB&J

[@rinyaskyline]

​@@surrcram Yeah it's like a PP&J where the ingredients are running low and the bread is old. There's nothing else and I won't complain but I don't like it enough to be satisfied

[@roogtisserie]

pb&j is groundbreaking

[@toadlord8594]

PB&J but it’s from a Low brand and the bread is partially stale

[@HandofOmega]

I'll say it again: They should not have started already as a couple. Show Vaggie having feelings for Charlie, that she hides because she's not sure if Charlie returns them...largely because Charlie seems to treat *everyone* like she's sooo happy to see them! The change has to come from Charlie, who gradually comes to realize that she does indeed care more about V. than the others under her care, and just what that means. And in addition to everything pointed out in this video, they have so much Best Friends Energy that they BARELY even come off as a couple, how many times do they actually show real romantic affection (beyond basic pet names)? That Big Damn Kiss at the end would have really felt *earned* if it were the culmination of their romance!

[@candybunny2462]

Chaggie being an established couple isn't the problem. It's the lackluster writing.

[@sallijunttila3006]

the show isnt a romance, it didnt need a romance subplot to add to everything else going on

[@seeleunit2000]

Honestly, I'm glad that a show's main couple is already established. It gets rid of all of the romance cliches out of the way. I do think it would be more interesting to have a realistic relationship between two adults who all ready know each other well and use that

[@kerryli9830]

Hard pass for me, I don't think Hazbin needed another "will they won't they" couple when Helluva has that down pat with Stoliz

[@ajjean2720]

I for one agree, I feel like if we started the show with them falling for each other, we would be able to see as the audience why they work well as a couple. I always loved to watch how a couple gets together then see them stay together for the rest of the series

[@UnluckyAmulet]

The problem with Vaggie is that if you take Charlie away from her, there's nothing really interesting about her left. Her goals are all related to Charlie, protecting her and making her happy. It's like she isn't really her own person, she's just there to orbit around Charlie.

[@lumityviktuuristanartist4100]

I wish they made this a plot point , like vaggie is insecure and well after being abandoned depends on loving charlie to find an identity but then this behavior becomes called out and vaggie actually finds an identity outside of charlie , it's millie all over again

[@andriygriffin4782]

Ironically Charlie is a perfect metaphor for the issues with the show. She’s all about plot and getting the storyline going, never having much time at all for character growth or moments with the other regulars.

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

Let’s just hope that with the time limit gone we can have more development episodes.

[@Scott-zo9mt]

By the end of the season I was more invested in Lute and Adam's relationship. They had a fun dynamic. Charlie and Vaggie just exist.

[@js66613]

Yeah, and they were supportive of each other and didn't have drama between each other and looked pretty damn established. Yet somehow they were more interesting than our hero couple with the same type of supportive, non-dramatic, established relationship.

[@shadowmandeathstroke8232]

Adam giving a genuine smile to Lute before he died made me more invested in their relationship than Charlie and Vaggie's

[@camerondalton1495]

Dude, SAME!!! I don't even think that was intended. I actually felt more when Lute called Adam's name as he died and he smiled at her.

[@camerondalton1495]

Right?!?

[@Zenn_Chan]

I genuinely love Lute and Adam, the small detail of her doing backup dancing/flying with him during Hell is Forever, as well as the little fist bump implies such a long history between them.

[@user-Jay178]

Hopefully season 2 will give them more time and development.

[@fmor2779]

Or a continuity, coherence or writing supervisor for that matter...

[@toadlord8594]

And learn from Helluva Boss’s mistakes in its decent yet flawed Season 2.

[@CipherRage-tp5ql]

I doubt it if Viv is gonna focus on making angelhusk canon in season 2.

[@superstarultra28]

Considering how many cartoons nowadays dip in quality after their first season, I wouldn't hold my breath. Helluva Boss started off okay, but slowly got worse and worse with every episode. Now, it's at the point where many people want to love it, but can't because of its shitty characters and writing.

[@fmor2779]

@@superstarultra28 And the worst part is that Hazbin suffers from the same, or most, of the problems in Helluva. I know it only had 8 episodes, but frantically squeezing everything doesn't help your product and they are not making a web comic or a YT series here, this is the big league, a show picked by a big company, we no longer have to cut them some slack. They should have made a better job for Hazbin. Many had high hopes for the project and it turns out to be as badly written as the spinoff they do for free on YT.

[@tripleoof8159]

They jumped the gun with Vaggie's arc. Her perception of love as following a boss with extreme devotion is something she picked up as a soldier. It would be interesting to activiely see their relationship be turbulent because of this, and become stronger in the end.

[@ShadowKitty7908]

The problem with Chaggie is that it’s one character putting in most of the work while the other one just gets to be whatever. Vaggie’s entire personality and actions are all around Charlie. Her entire motivations are about Charlie. And as a result. It feels unhealthy. The way I see it. Vaggie wasn’t born, she was created as an Exterminator. So she never really got to have a personality/interests of her own. Until she was kicked out by Lute and met Charlie. So instinctively. Charlie became her new identity. Being her girlfriend became everything. Which isn’t healthy. So I think season 2 should dedicate some time into exploring Vaggie for who she is. Not what she is to Charlie. And for Charlie to realize Vaggie’s behavior and try and help her find her own identity. Not cause she doesn’t want Vaggie as her gf. But because she wants Vaggie to have her own life as well.

[@mammamiawhygod2091]

Vaggie is just Pearl from Steven Universe when Rose was still alive.

[@kiaheat1920]

But with less of an ego and more of a temper

[@Sappysappster]

2:18 God- FINALLY THANK YOU I've endured years of filler/"not plot important" slander it's been driving me crazy. I feel like people often think about stories as emotional peak moments rather than yknow, a STORY; with building blocks and stuff Is this beach episode with the good guys important when the world will blow up in 7 days unless they stop it? No! But it's still fun AND it allows us to explore the characters and their dynamics in a fun way Downtime is just as important as uptime

[@randompromises1038]

This is my biggest gripe with 6 to 8 episodes a season, NOT ENOUGH FILLER. We keep going from Point A to Point B but we to enjoy the journey between those points and utilize that to develop characters, lore, setting, whatever, rather than get through as many plot points as possible in as little time as possible. This is NOT how stories should work!

[@DP-mv7ph]

you people still dont know the definition of filler 🤦‍♀ in order for a show to have filler it must be adapted from a manga/book/comic. Hazbin Hotel and all other original series cant have filler, all content is CANON. having slice of life and slow moments doesnt mean its a filler. a filler is new content that doesn't exist in the original source material. a filler can be a high tension brutal fight scene it doesn't always have to be slow.

[@Famously5518]

@@DP-mv7phEXCATLY!!! its pisses me off so much whenever slow-down or cool-off episodes get called filler because that literally not true!!! calling an episode filler only makes actual sense in the context of an adaptation. Otherwise thats just canon context, its character building its setting up and establishing character dynamics, its giving you a reason to actually CARE about of these characters in the first place!!! I miss when tv shows weren’t so obsessed with moving the plot at breakneck speeds, i miss when we were allowed to sit down and really to know these characters before being asked to care about big shake ups to the plot

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

⁠@@Famously5518JJBA PT5 did this pretty well imo by giving each gang member their own episodes, though I’m not sure how well it would’ve worked here.

[@ChimeraLotietheBunny]

@@DP-mv7phnot really Avatar the last airbender is the epitome of good filler done right without outsource

[@cordyceps7531]

Charlie and Vaggie, but mostly Charlie are more entertaining when they interact with literally anyone but each other.

[@TheRibottoStudios]

I feel like Chaggie really has the potential to be one of the most realistic (and healthy) ships out there. They remind me a lot of ways, of Flynn and Rapunzel but a more basic bare bones version of that ship. That ship is often heavily praised for being quite realistic and healthy, and if Chaggie gets even half the development Flynn and Rapunzel got as a couple, we're in for a treat. But I have a feeling that Viv will more focus that slow burn effect on HuskerDust. Which is fair. I quite like that ship way more than Chaggie anyways. I'm such a sucker for slow burns even after the nightmare that Supernatural put us through.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Yet the entire fandom ships Rapunzel with Cass...

[@TheRibottoStudios]

@@valentinkambushev4968 ugh I honestly hate that ship so much. I was ECSTATIC that two FRIENDS told each other they love each other, because that is SO rare and then people just RAN with that. To the point where they tried to have ANY possible excuse to make it canon. It was honestly gross behavior. It's fine to ship it, but to the extent people in the fandom did went too far. To the point you were called homophobic if you didn't like it. Cassunzel had NO indication of being romantic at least from what I saw. Eugenezul on the other hand, WAS very well established. Even in Legend of Korra, I could see the hints of Korrasami before the finale. There was just nothing from Cass and Raps that indicated "yeah they could get togther." I always saw them as sisters.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@TheRibottoStudios I prefer Rapunzel and Flynn. And I share your frustration with the word "love" having zero platonic applications in media anymore. Every time I have one of my characters say they love another character and they mean it platonically, I feel like I _have_ to throw in something to the effect of "you're like the sister I never had," or it will definitely be misinterpreted, even if there is zero romantic tension between them.

[@ohood1788]

​@@TheRibottoStudios When it comes to Tangled, a lot of the artists and storyboarders that worked on the show purposefully put sapphic coded moments in the series. One of them even said that there are a lot of sapphics working on the show and that whenever they get to draw Cassandra they infuse it with as much gay as possible. So there's definitely something there, the shippers didn't make it up. It was put there intentionally (even if not by the writers). Like there were Cassunzel scenes that literally paralleled Rapunzel's scenes with Eugene. I find it odd to call people gross for this. It's fine if you don't see it but the people who do are not wrong or gross for it. The Cassunzel ship also existed in season 1 way before they told each other that they love each other, so it wasn't because people think the word "love" only exists for romantic purposes. I think you're really misrepresenting the fandom and origin of the ship here. I'm sure there are awful people in the fandom but they're not the majority and that also goes for every ship, there are bad apples in every fandom. For example, I think the people who claim that shipping Cassunzel is wrong because they're "sisters" are just as bad as the people who claim that not shipping Cassunzel automatically makes you homophobic. Cass and Rapunzel are not sisters by any definition of the word. They are not related by blood, they are not adopted sisters and they are not step-sisters. They had the same caretaker at one point but at separate times. They were not raised together as sisters. If you view their relationship as "sisterly" in the sense that it's platonic then that's fine but trying to turn it into something incestuous when it isn't is just very frustrating and shitty. Why can't people just say they ship or don't ship something without making it a moral dilemma. "if you don't ship this you're homophobic" "if you ship this you endorse incest" It's all just very ridiculous. I also want to say that having two girls in a romantic relationship in mainstream media is far more rare than seeing two girls be friends. That's why so many non-canon gay ships are popular, because there are hardly any canon ones. Also nobody in their right mind genuinely thought Cassunzel was gonna be canon, like this is Disney we're talking about. It was very obvious she was gonna end up with Eugene and Cassunzel shippers knew that, they just wanted to have fun with their ship in fanon, then there's the people complaining about it like "why can't people be friends anymore" as if the majority of female relationships in media aren't platonic lol. I mean I never see this energy when it's an m/f relationship, like Ron and Kim got together after three whole seasons of them being just friends in Kim Possible, I don't recall anyone crying about "why can't they just be friends" then. Anyways, if you only saw Cassunzel as platonic and interpret their love as such then more power to you but that doesn't make you any more right or wrong than the people who interpret it as romantic. I personally ship both Cassunzel and New Dream, I think they're both really great in different ways. I absolutely love the way Eugene and Rapunzel’s relationship was portrayed in the show, they were so supportive and loving and never failed to be engaging, so I definitely agree that Chaggie would be a far more interesting couple if they followed their lead. I also enjoy HuskerDust wayy more than Chaggie, I think it's because we actually see them bond and have actual conversations with each other on screen, which unfortunately is not true for Chaggie.

[@lilowhitney8614]

Realistic doesn't necessarily makes for good storytelling. Sure irl you would want this kind of healthy wholesome relationship but it makes for boring ass characters with no conflict or more interesting interacting than "I love you unconditionally".

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

Hazbin Hotel main problem is the number of episodes and there is no room to breathe.

[@TheManWhoErasedHisNane]

Yeah we needed some in between parts, closest we had were in EP3 & EP4 with everything kinda moving on until the end.

[@artistanthony1007]

No it's explicitly the writing and what Viv has decided to do with that time, come back after seeing shows like Edgerunners and Over The Garden Wall & tell me if you still think it's the length.

[@rileygrace4426]

I feel like Vaggie’s character was so held back and that’s why her development is so lacking. I think she should’ve been more violent and blood thirsty, old habits that are hard to kill and more reflective of her exorcism past. She comes off as a hard ass more than a killer of any kind. And I think that’s also why “fight for love” falls flat for me too. Because there was never a doubt that Vaggie valued love more than a vengeance against the exorcists. So what lesson was learned there that got her wings? Because it never seemed like Vaggie WASN’T fighting for love to begin with. All she did was out of love for Charlie, even battling with heaven. Now, if she was more bloodthirsty and bent on a revenge plot, that would make so much sense. And create real internal conflict. And contrast between Charlie’s mercy and Vaggie’s violence. But Vaggie acts more as a guard dog that’s called off the second she has an unfavorable impulse.

[@camerondalton1495]

Yeah, I was confused about the message of the song because I never doubted that Vaggie loved Charlie and would do anything for her. It mainly just restated what we already knew.

[@DanielJames-fh6yc]

Vaggie is the millie of hazbin hotel and it SHOWS

[@_eccentric_]

She is basically Millie with less backbone but also more interesting imo

[@DanielJames-fh6yc]

@@_eccentric_ of course she is better than mills as a character

[@toadlord8594]

@@DanielJames-fh6yc I suppose Charlie is a less pathetic version of Moxxie. (I love my boy but I will be honest.)

[@DanielJames-fh6yc]

@@toadlord8594 yes you it spot on. This is why I said... Truth seekers Moxie> all Moxxies

[@DanielJames-fh6yc]

@@toadlord8594 if they kept evolving from Truth seekers and made him better

[@valentinkambushev4968]

I hate how every time I point out a legitimate problem with this ship and other LGBT+ couples, people call me homophobic. People, just because a ship is gay, doesn't mean it's immune to problems or criticism!

[@Karlos1234ify]

If only they knew how high divorce rates & domestic violence happens in Lesbian relationships

[@nanuqo2006]

@@Karlos1234ify and *now* it's homophobic

[@sauronplugawy3866]

​@@Karlos1234ifyLesbians trying to not beat the Living shit out of eachother for 0.22222 seconds(Impossible):

[@INTERNECION101]

​@@nanuqo2006no no they got a point fr

[@Kossa-Odessa]

@@Karlos1234ifyinteresting fact, these statistics aren’t really correct. The study that showed an increase in having *been* in a toxic and abusive relationship, was done not on just lesbians but WLW in general. And in this study it was shown that on average bisexual women and other sexualities that include attraction to women as a woman, where talking about relationships with men that were abusive not so much women. That said, it is statistically shown that lesbians divorce a bit more than other couples, what the exact reason is is unsure, though it’s interesting to note that most lesbians that divorce do so on good terms and cheating was a given only as a very small percentage of the reason for said divorce which is a statistic that’s higher in straight couples who divorce. Just mentioning it here because it’s such a wildly taken out of context statistic used to put lesbians down whilst it isn’t even true.

[@melodystarlight7933]

I feel like they’re what Rapunzel and Cassandra would’ve been if Rapunzel and Eugene broke up 😂

[@camerondalton1495]

Ironically even Cassandra and Rapunzel had more chemistry.

[@ChimeraLotietheBunny]

Agreed indeed and platonic even

[@harrygoad329]

"It's just fine" is the crown jewel of my problems with this show. I like this show, I respect this show, and I want it to do great things, but I am sick of it being so utterly, miserably "Just fine".

[@kalyssiaseptember]

Yeah, especially since the pilot was such a banger. It had a great premise, a group of super interesting protagonists, amazing character design, etc, but the time constraints hurt the series so bad. They tried to shove a ton of different arcs and story beats into a mini-series time frame and ended up with a spaghetti squash mess of half baked issues that practically resolve themselves instantly, leaving the viewer barely any time to even process the emotional impact of what just happened. I seriously hope they get more runtime in s2 so we can actually dive into characters/storylines that got zoomed through in s1 Also, they watered down Alastor. There, I said it. He was so much more 1920s in the pilot and I miss it

[@sofianova1472]

​@@kalyssiaseptember the 1920s carisma was the best part!

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@kalyssiaseptemberNO, go look at what Over The Garden Wall did with its shorter 10 Episodes, if anything hurt the show, it's Viv and what her team had done with the 8 Episodes they were given, Carmilla for one did not deserved the screentime or her song and putting that in was irresponsible and waste of the precious time and focus on a character.

[@toadlord8594]

Honestly the most engaging Dynamics in the show so far are Husk and Angel Dust’s dynamic (Especially after ep 4), second being Adam and Lute’s dynamic. Even Alastor and Lucifer’s dynamic STOLE THE SHOW in spite of each other has more engaging (though Alastor is Asexual). Honestly Adam x Lute, they’re (or were) a genuinely fun and rude Villain duo and Lute’s scream of horror and real tear stained reaction about seeing Adam die sorta made me ship them. And two of my favorite characters so far.

[@ohood1788]

Honestly I would ship Lute and Adam if he didn't constantly throw misogynistic insults at her. I get that he's supposed to be awful but I just can't ship a woman with a man who sees her as lesser. I really love Lute though, I hope she gets more to do with Adam gone in S2.

[@toadlord8594]

@@ohood1788I suppose I just see the potential since their Villain dynamic just works well and even viewed his death scene where Lute genuinely cries over his death and the genuine smile he gave her at the end. Even evil have loved Ones being one of my favorite tropes.

[@camerondalton1495]

I don't think she really cared, but I gotcha. Even before the final battle Lute showed her bloodthirsty side and even Adam had to tell her to calm down. So they have things in common. She's no saint. It is sad how inspite of that the pairing had more chemistry than the main couple.

[@camerondalton1495]

I feel the same way.

[@toadlord8594]

@@camerondalton1495Personally I’d disagree with that specially since Viziepop has herself confirmed that they ARE BEST Friends.

[@velvi8359]

I was surprised by how non-physical they were with eachother. In Helluva Boss, established couples like Millie/Moxie and Fizz/Asmodeus are constantly holding each other, showing attraction for each other, flirting, talking intimately with each other, etc. I kind of assumed Charlie and Vaggie would be the same, but they barely treat each other any differently from the rest of the cast outside of a couple of hand holding scenes and a romantic kiss scene. You really do forget they are a couple sometimes. I know not every couple acts the same, but it's kind of weird how reserved they are in contrast to other cannon couple in Vivzie's works. Like this is one of the few animated shows that starts with an established lesbian couple and they barely feel like they are dating, it's kind of disappointing.

[@Frankly_Amazing2000]

What I find really detracts from Vaggie being Charlie’s protector is the fact the Vaggie says she isn’t used to fighting with long hair. To me that means that she hasn’t needed to fight for months or even at least a year to protect Charlie. Meaning she isn’t ever in danger and doesn’t need a protector.

[@lizzie8982]

Charlie and Vaggie in theory have a similar dynamic to Moxxie and Millie. One the more soft and pacifist and the other more blunt and violent. Yet we go wild for Moxxie and Millie, but for Charlie and Vaggie we just kinda go „Yeah, cute I guess.“ I‘ve got a few theories for why that is. First of all, as mentioned in the video, Charlie almost never listens to Vaggie, while Vaggie almost always listens to Charlie. But on top of that, Vaggie almost always tries to hold Charlie back, cautions her, narratively speaking tries to hold her back from what she wants to do and needs to do for the plot to happen. She acts like a hurdle, while also being very easily overcome by just ignoring her. Meanwhile Millie, while giving comfort, also often pushes Moxxie to step out of his comfort zone, try to become a better version of himself, move the plot forward. And he listens to her. For Moxxie, Millie‘s displays of violence are endearing, it‘s what he loves about her, therefore it makes her endearing for us. Charlie always stops or agues against Vaggie‘s displays of violence, which makes them a nuisance to us and the plot. We also never see what makes Vaggie endearing to Charlie and barely what makes Charlie endearing to Vaggie. Everything Vaggie does is for Charlie but rarely for the plot. Everything Charlie does is for the plot, but rarely for Vaggie. They push each other to do less, while M&M push each other to do more. 2nd of all my personally biggest issue: The displays of affection. It might just be me, but the way Chaggy interacts is, while very realistic, is arguably very platonic most of the time. This is the way I interact with my friend 24/7. Meanwhile the M&Ms interact in much more cartoony ways, with bigger displays of affection early on. Arguably less realistic, but undoubtedly a couple. Chaggy could be mistaken for „just good friends“ if you really wanted to, M&M not so much. A lot of that sadly has to do with lesbian erasure - the fact that female friendships often are extremely physically affectionate makes it easy for lesbian couples to be explained away as „just besties“. There is of course the other end of the spectrum, where lesbian couples are extremely sexualized and just something to turn on horny men. So I‘m glad Hazbin Hotel was cautious of that, especially with how sexualized many of the male characters seem to be. But the M&M interactions I just mentioned aren‘t extremely sexual, just a bit cartoony. Why not do something like that? It‘s okay if that just isn‘t their dynamic and I‘m glad to see a couple portrayed like that, but still, I see it as a big factor on why we find Chaggy less endearing than M&M. Also, physical and verbal displays of affection most of the time are initiated by Vaggie and accepted by Charlie. Rarely the other way around, I noticed.

[@MonsterPrincessLala]

They don't give Vaggie a personality outside of Charlotte and she had the same problems as the m&ms

[@kennethferland5579]

The biggest thing that Vaggie lost from the pilot was her Temper, she was a white hot ball of rage in the Pilot and Charlie did just as much calming her down as Vaggie did Cherring up of Charlie. That gave two distinctly different notes to their interactions, and made it seem like a more equal one where each of them was really making the other their best self. Also Vaggies rage sessions injected some very good comedic elements. If Vaggie had continued to have that fiery temper then the 'Out for Love' song would have been much more appropriate, as many people have noted the song basically tells Vaggie to do what she is already doing all season and what she had alreayd decided to do in the first Vaggie/Carmila duet.

[@TheDaxter11]

Remember when shows felt like they got as many episodes as they wanted? I swear damn near EVERY SINGLE SHOW that comes out these days is 8 episodes long exactly, if not give or take a few. This can be murder on plot points and setups because they just don't get the time they need anymore, even when episodes are longer to make up for it because they mostly just get an extra 10 minutes for half an hour episodes instead of 20 minute ones.

[@salemcrow5078]

Yeah geuinely I feel like a lot of issues can boil down to straight up not having enough time. You just cannot fit a season's worth of development into like 8 episodes, unless like each episode is an hour long.

[@crazycookie4645]

Remember though, it's still on the creator/writer to write their story within the limits that they're given. So Viv and her writers are still at fault for trying to cram all of their ideas into just eight episodes instead of picking a couple of ideas and focusing on them. Shifting all the blame on the studio doesn't change that. Scott Pilgrim Takes Off also only had eight episodes, but it has a much more coherent and streamlined story because the writers knew exactly what story they wanted to tell and focused on it. Viv has a lot of ideas that she isn't willing to sacrifice, so HH is over-bloated and unfocused.

[@artistanthony1007]

​@@crazycookie4645This and who and what wasted part of the time? Carmilla and her undeserved song.

[@vlindors]

​@@crazycookie4645 You're absolutely right! I feel like most people who watch HH and/or HB always skimp over the fact that Vivzie just.. isn't such a great writer in general. Now, don't get me wrong, it's impressive she somehow managed to get her show onto a streaming service, and her animation skills are decent. Even with how complex her character designs are! The main problem I have with the show is the pacing and writing.. During episode 2 we had a whole montage of character mentioning character and then us getting introduced to that character. It barely gives the main cast time to breathe and just develop overall. Not to mention, the writing team has like - 8 or 10 members if I recall? And also the large cast, which means the attention gets shifted away from the MCs just so the SCs can push along the plot(s). AND the fact that It's a show about Heaven vs. Hell gives it soo much potential! There are many stories/fabels/myths, etc. she *could* take inspiration from, and some things I came up with myself, such as; - can humans summon demons? If so, what are the consequences? - is there a significant difference between the exterminators and the average angels? - why aren't sinners allowed to leave the Pride Ring? Sorry I'm going on a *bit* of a tangent now 😅 but I hope ya see my point! There's just so much interesting development that could take place IF Vivzie actually wants to listen to her audience, although i'd never see that happening.

[@illnessbutmakeitmental8365]

The thing w / Chaggie is that their more lowkey, overly domestic vibe makes a lot of sense when you consider how long they've been together. They've been together for a WHILE, and they were friends prior to getting together. After being in a relationship w / one person for a long time, even tho the spark is still there, you tend to start just acting like normal friends around each other because you're so used to their presence around you. It's just normal behavior in longterm relationships. I don't find Chaggie all that interesting, but I think that's okay. Not every ship needs to be super intricate and filled w / dynamic moments. I do think they are perhaps a bit TOO domestic, like maybe just a bit of spice would've been great, but for what it's worth, I think this ship does what it's meant to do pretty decently.

[@camerondalton1495]

I agree. I think the main sin this pairing has (despite some missed story beats) is that is is pretty vanilla compared to the other more interesting ships. Like even Lute and Adam had more palpable chemistry and they weren't on screen that much.

[@EeveeHawkFan]

Am I the only one sad their love song duet is.. a reprise of a song Charlie sung with her DAD? It just, feels weird to me??? Like its cute, don't get me wrong, but like, girls didn't even get their own little short song

[@barklols]

Chaggie very unfortunately landed in the “they’re just REALLY good friends” camp

[@jorgevalencia5673]

Anyone think it’s weird that the one duet that Chaggie gets, was a reprise of Charlie’s and Lucifer’s daddy daughter song? Like, a song that was originally about the familial love between a father daughter was made a romantic song about partners. Is that not weird to anyone else?

[@maisogyny]

no... its a song charlie sings with people she loves and are very important in her life. yall are digging too deep

[@CutsiePie_]

The "not listening to Vaggie" thing could also work out beautifully if they expand on it in the next season. Charlie only really listens if it's to better her own goals (e.g. when Vaggie suggests being more authoritative. I'd like for Vaggie to be the one that forces Charlie to actually act on her power and to do things that make her uncomfortable but are necessary. That would work well with her back story of killing sinners (she did it bc it was needed, maybe even add some characterization on how she felt about it, which in turn gives more insight into the whole deal with the exorcists' organisation). It could also culminate in them falling out. Vaggie does things for Charlie to her own detriment, the power imbalance always leads to Charlie benefitting so she never tries to fix the problem (bc it doesn't exist for her). The power imbalance play could also lead to an exploration of their backstory together or separately, and such. There is a lot of potential, just not even time.

[@CutsiePie_]

I think they could even work in the idea that Vaggie does not have full belief into the project, due to her ordeal with heaven (something only the audience knows, and will pay off when we find out she's an angel), which would make the relationship drama a lot spicier.

[@spedrun]

I dunno I thought it was pretty cute throughout. I really think the main issue is that vaggie as a character is not written super well

[@camerondalton1495]

Indeed. We don't know much about her.

[@shawerful5209]

You when the protagonist girlfriend was a character before became the protagonist girlfriend. Vaggie is that but without the "character" part

[@sharkenjoyer]

Vivzie seems to pay way more attention and seems more invested in male on male relationships, Asmodeus and Fizz is a great example of a relationship of that, Vaggie and Charlie seem like room mates or childhood friends at most

[@fanaticalistic]

Honestly I love them in the show, and their interactions are adorable. I guess it's basic?

[@Nerd704]

My thing is that I like them but I was primed to love them and I just didn't. The show is so worried about speedrunning the plot and delving into angel dust and alastor that we don't get time for Vaggie and Charlie's actual relationship. Like having charlie sing a song about her reaction to the whole angel thing would have been better than the training montage song and the cannibal town song that episode. One because while Carmine's VA is an amazing singer she's not a very important character to get three songs dedicated to her. Spend a song building up Vaggie and Charlie instead. Their voices complement each other really well.

[@mirkohoble]

You're fine. If you like it, it's your thing.

[@jknetwork6211]

In terms of the filler complaint, I’ve only seen Steven universe get that criticism. Especially in the later seasons but honestly I think Steven Universe’s problem was not that it had filler but that the filler wasn’t always that great or it was just bad flat out. Like the Ronaldo episodes got the most flack for this which skewed people’s eyes for filler with modern American cartoons. Cause adventure time, gravity falls, avatar, etc didn’t really have this complaint. Star vs got this complaint too but mostly for season 4 There’s nothing wrong with having filler because you can do a lot of fun stuff with the characters and their dynamics. I get shows like Invincible are adapting stuff like comics so maybe you can get away with the 8 episodes a season thing but stuff like hazbin can definitely get more. I mean shit the first season of helluva boss had “filler” and it worked out for the most part

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Honestly, Beach City and most of its citizens as a whole weren't that interested. The first season of Amphibia also had a lot of filler, but the frogs and the world as a whole were interesting.

[@jknetwork6211]

@@valentinkambushev4968yeah most of them felt like npcs than actual characters I’d want to know more about. All the focus and interesting stuff went to all the gems. Even aquamarine for how small her screen time was, ended up still being way more interesting than all of the citizens from beach city. Doesn’t help that the only characters from beach city to get any substantial growth are Lars and Greg

[@genericname2747]

Hazbin Hotel and Steven Universe are on 2 opposite ends of a scale. Steven Universe had too much filler, and would interrupt a serious story to have an episode about Watermelon Steven.

[@sardonicus1739]

My only issue with the filler was the Steven Bomb format. When you're someone watching the show with like major plot points then a 9 month hiatus to stew. Getting a filler after that is one of the most disappointing feelings.

[@Barakon]

I think the format made the filler feel agonizing, characterization episodes were just the scapegoat for the stevenbomb format’s sins.

[@ArkhamMaster.]

The main 2 reasons I don't really care for the couple are that: 1. Vaggie is just a really boring character that I don't find much to enjoy about. I feel like I am watching diet Poison Ivy from the Harley Quinn show. 2. How Charlie took just enough time processing Vaggies secret for me to find frustrating because it could of either been an immediate anticlimax where Charlie processes and realises that Vaggie being an angel doesn't change anything when that was literally the point of the hotel to redeem people(disclaimer: I have thought this before the episode with Rosie, but I am happy that she addresses how silly that is) and also because of the shows super fast pacing there is no time for it to leave any lasting impact or conflict so it just leaves me with an expression of "Oh they are seperated, oh they are already back together?"

[@Vaggiescoochsniffer]

Vaggie is an interesting character, she’s literally a fallen Angel, and a lesbian, she’s not boring, you’re just picky and clouded by all of the mlm relationships that you can’t even appreciate the one canon wlw relationship.

[@redpanda6497]

@@Vaggiescoochsniffer When did they ever bring up "mlm relationships"?

[@ArkhamMaster.]

@@Vaggiescoochsniffer If we are talking mlm or wlw relationships (I had to search these acronyms up lol) I don't care if it is either of the 2 or if its a wlm relationship. Their preferences have nothing to do with it. I don't think that Vaggie being a lesbian is interesting as a character trait, the same way I wouldn't point out if a straight character was straight or if they were a homosexual male. Her character being a fallen angel doesn't do much for me either considering they don't do much with the concept. It's used for some drama between the 2 that just makes them separated for a total of 1 episode for basically 0 purpose considering they just immediately get back together. I genuinely don't know where the mlm relationship stuff came from.

[@fruitloops2058]

​@@Vaggiescoochsniffer Her being lesbian doesn't mean jack in this series and her being a fallen angel didn't have enough time to be explored to its fullest potential. Stop strawmanding.

[@Vaggiescoochsniffer]

@@ArkhamMaster. Her being lesbian is an interesting trait considering Viv has never had any other Lesbian character.

[@tvccreator_elysius]

I have to agree that, while Charlie and Vaggie are really wholesome, I was *not* paying attention to their relationship. I was more invested in seeing Lucifer finally show up, Angel finally break free from Val's control, Husk be hilarious, and Alastor stealing the show for the entirety. Sure, Charlie and Vaggie are main characters, but... I'm sorry, their relationship was rather boring compared to everything else happening.

[@frankhonesty9146]

If they actually explored how unhealthy their dynamic is I would be so thrilled. I WANT Vaggie to establish her own identity so badly. Training with Carmella, hanging out with the other hotel guests. Her dynamic with Charlie is genuinely terrifying as someone whose been in similar. Charlie met, nursed back to health, adopted, introduced to hell, and began dating Vaggie at the same time. Vaggie went from an exterminator, who are kind of established to not be real people because Adam names them, to being basically Charlie’s pet, and neither of them really notice it. Vaggie was born a servant to Adam, not a human soul, and she didn’t have free will. She made one choice in her life to disobey and she was mutilated for it, immediately. Vaggie never pushes back against Charlie. She never fights for her own decisions. If Charlie says no, she caves. Vaggie doesn’t have the social skills to have conflicts because she’s never been allowed to have them. Charlie is a genuinely good person, but the fact that they’re dancing around owner servant without realizing it is fascinating, and I hope the show addresses it. I want to see them genuinely fight and have to figure out how to move forward. They simply aren’t equals, but watching them learn to be would be very interesting.

[@_eccentric_]

Thank you! Take the words right out of my mouth! Kinda same issue I have with couples like hualian. One person devoting their life to their partner isn't cute but seriously unhealthy. And something uncany about how scared Vaggie seems to look during their fight but overall I still wouldn't ship them with someone else for the world because they got loads of potential

[@dylanjackson7325]

profound

[@camerondalton1495]

Well said.

[@luckhwa]

@@_eccentric_ putting chaggie and hualian together puts it in a new perspective for me. i never realized how... weird it was and how they never heal from their pasts but instead their strong devotion is played off as "True love", but you could say that it's a result of their trauma. hualian is seriously taking it to another level with hua cheng giving his ashes to xie lian, trusting him with his life even though xie lian can just kill him if the ashes ever get destroyed. there's a difference between love and obsession, i just hope that both ships could become a little more healthy.

[@_eccentric_]

@@luckhwa exactly, ty! ye that's way wangxian is my bias.

[@ackk9873]

Vaggie shouldn’t just be Charlie’s gf, she should be her own person , this is what chaggie flaws in the show

[@ria-bd9ck]

exactly

[@androidps1440]

there is it they can be friends, they can be partners but a couple? naaaah i don't see them like that

[@Victoria-Vixen]

Can we talk about how Sarcastic Chorus works SO hard doing the scripts for these. I love how all the viewpoints flow together. Like, I'm finishing a case study with research paper references, trying to make it flow from point to point, and it's ALWAYS HARD AF. It never ceases. Cheers to this legend. 🏆

[@justausername5749]

Something I found shocking was that in the very few scenes we saw them in, Adam and Lute’s dynamic managed to surpass everything Chaggie had been doing the entire season. I genuinely loved every minute those two were on screen, and their dynamic was just so refreshing compared to Chaggie. Adam’s obnoxious and bombastic personality was so natural against Lute’s more aggressive and serious character. The fact that these two very different individuals had such fun interactions was a treat. I just find it sad that it managed to outshine Chaggie in an instant. The problem I have with Chaggie isn’t that Charlie and Vaggie don’t seem like a couple - it’s more that they just have no chemistry as friends either. They don’t bounce off each other as naturally as Adam and Lute did, and when they’re the main couple of the show, that is a very serious problem.

[@camerondalton1495]

Agreed. Adam was a jerk to Lute at points, but you could tell they did have a relationship. You wanted to know more about them. The problem with Chaggie is that while nice,bthere was nowhere for their relationship to go. The 'breakup' could've been interesting, but they get back together again.

[@androidps1440]

and there it is

[@camerondalton1495]

@@androidps1440 Do you disagree?

[@mariachiara2616]

I personaly love Chaggie very much. But yes i agree with you on certain points, Charlie barely listen to Vaggie and yes i also feel like Vaggie is giving 100% of herself in this hotel she wants to help Charlie so bad but we didnt see Charlie act this way for her. I would have love seeing Charlie protect Vaggie from Luth or Adam and losing her shit after knowing what they did to her. Sadly we didnt get much of these moments. 8 episodes is very short a lot happen, but we will see in the next seasons. Actually i am very satisfied we what we had for now.

[@j1nx_spr1t3]

The statement of “They might as well be friends” Is so true. Like, it would be better for both of their characters. It would add interest to their stories. And it would give them more to work for. Because honestly, Vaggie is absolutely being ignored by Charlie, and Charlie is a jerk for it. I enjoy that Charlie can have negative traits. But they’re not addressed. It just feels more like writing error instead of true character and it brings both characters down with it. I hope they do get to have an argument. And I mean argument, Vaggie finally realizing how little Charlie listens to her and calling her out for it. It would get so many people invested. And It would be so satisfying to watch the one person who supports Charlie no matter what finally break out of her shadow and call out the fact she isn’t perfect. Charlie isn’t perfect, but it annoys me that the only way that’s shown is by her failing. Because her failing isn’t her fault, but her ignoring Vaggie absolutely is. And I really want to see it fixed. (This used to be much longer, but I realized I was ranting, so your welcome.)

[@Yoimiya_Lover29]

The thing is, I WANT to love Chaggie. I love both my girls, and they had such potential to be so adorable, and a great relationship. But they just.... fall flat, and it sucks.

[@the13thgoogler]

Charlie honestly have more chemistry with anyone else, Emily, Sir Pen, even Alastor more than Vaggie.

[@CipherRage-tp5ql]

While Vaggie just stands around in the background like some emo wall flower. XD

[@maisogyny]

is the chemistry with other characters in the room with us right now?

[@daraghokane4236]

Them being a demon and a angle dating and it been taboo could have been a consistent plot point, with Charile going look heaven and hell can be friends look we get on. And demons calling Charlie a traitor and heaven calling V a traitor. If I was a demon I would be pissed that the queen of hell was getting on with heaven a place were at war with

[@camerondalton1495]

Maybe in season 2.

[@WeebGuru6]

Charlie and vaggie act more like sisters then anything also we will ever get that young justice video

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Someday. Honestly, I am wondering if he is going to talk about Avatar ships now that the live-action adaptation is coming.

[@cinderelenn]

its not that "ThEy AcT lIkE sIsTeRs", its just how real life couples act after some time, they arent all kisses the entire tike

[@user-bl6oj1hl8i]

​@cinderelenn Bruh stop comment hunting. This is a fake couple. It's okay if other people don't like them for writing reasons or the lack of chemistry. Chill.

[@cinderelenn]

@@user-bl6oj1hl8i bro I was literally just replying to some comments while watching the video why tf I cant do that

[@Max-eu9fp]

​@@user-bl6oj1hl8iyou guys really don't know what real relationships are do you every relationship isn't always about kissing or acting so lovey dovey surprisingly most of the time couples are chilling and act like friends

[@cofagrigusfan24]

I will always say this and that is that Vaggie never fell she still is a 100% pure angel but that doesn't change much regarding the video topic

[@thewalrus45]

Technically despite being more clearly Fallen so is Lucifier, he's still 100% a Seraphim Angel. I think just being in Hell long enough kinda starts to change the physical traits of Angels a bit.

[@spartan5280]

I think this was also proven by the fact that like Adam she was able to curse during the trial and the other angels didn't react.

[@otterside1404]

Iam so glad that I've found this video because I see a lot of same-minded people here, like me. I love Vaggie so much and I can't stand watching her fate in this show. She deserves much more Charlie, open your eyes!

[@cactust7851]

i feel like chaggie could have really benefited from a few more flashbacks or even just a frank conversation between the two about their relationship--because the basis of their relationship is actually really interesting! i would have loved to see a post-fallen angel reveal convo between them, where vaggie maybe explains how charlie was the first person who taught her kindness, and charlie can talk about the reasons she fell in love with vaggie. an interesting "conflict" (if you could call it that) is that vaggie was created to be a weapon, and as it stands now, she still is--she's just charlie's weapon. charlie doesn't WANT her to be a weapon, though--she loves vaggie as a real person. some sort of discussion about that--or maybe a "let me protect you this time" line from charlie or something--could help better show the basis for their relationship as well as set up some stuff for the next season.

[@aradraugfea6755]

They have a better dynamic in the PILOT than they do in the SHOW. The pilot does a better job communicating their deal. Charlie, the idealistic dreamer. Vaggie, the jaded cynic. Vaggie keeps Charlie's head (mostly) out of the clouds, focusing on the realistic goals and managing expectations. Charlie keeps Vaggie from just being a complete misanthropic jerk. Either would be kind of insufferable without the other, and they temper each other's worse traits. That's all from the PILOT. Even AWARE of their "Deal", you basically never see it in action in the show. Like, I was talking to a friend, and Vaggie is so underdeveloped in the show that anyone who didn't realize they were dating Charlie until she's getting introduced to Lucifer gets a pass from me. Nobody else in the entire show is EVER subtle about their desires, and, yeah, Charlie isn't going to be pillow talking her girlfriend in the lobby or anything, but even just establishing they share a room or something.

[@doe9000]

The sole scene that does it for me with Charlie x Vaggie, is when Charlie excitedly calls Vaggie over to talk with her about the meeting with heaven. Vaggie immediately smiles as soon as she sees her and that expression just screams 'I love you so much'. I love this detail so much, and its especially great to have this happen during the first episode, it immediately drives home just how much Vaggie loves Charlie. Though, it feels like Charlie doesnt reciprocate that love. Yeah, she's happy to see Vaggie, but she's happy to see everyone so that doesnt really matter. She does show her trust with how she includes Vaggie when it comes to important stuff (bringing her into the angel meeting n other stuff). But it feels like the only thing Charlie is giving in the relationship, regarding the emotional side, is trust. Unless i missed something.

[@ophiuchus_kin]

I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable when they said Charlie found Vaggie like 3 years ago, it made their relationship feel like Vaggie is a pet or someone in debt to Charlie

[@theidiotics2629]

Dang you must have some personal problems then

[@dapperdabber13]

Yo it's really not that deep. How often are you online?

[@rvds2040]

jesus dude, thats seriously on you

[@patrickdixon2170]

What the hell are you talking about? Charie does NOT see Vaggie as a pet

[@SeasickSeahorse244]

I completely get that but charlie doesn’t bring it up to anyone or hold it over Vaggies head in the scenes we see, they’re on equal footing dawg

[@leavemealone802]

Still think they work better as friends. Nothing in their relationship actually makes me think they work as a couple

[@ohhithere8562]

I kind of wish Vaggie was like Lowkey against the Hotel in a rewrite or something. I think it could’ve been nice, not fully against it but hesitant. Since she’s so focused on Charlie I think the idea of her just wanting a calmer life with her could be a drive. Plus with her relationship to heaven, maybe she wouldn’t be too eager to help with the hotel. although she still would but with certain sense of hesitation and guilt. The guilt maybe coming from not being fully supportive, so she tries to overcompensate, like that episode she struggles with leading and planning activities for the others. plus if an argument happens between the two, it could slip out and you know actual grounded conflict. But then they’d make up bc of course ❤❤

[@camerondalton1495]

Interesting

[@NataliaAgonigi]

I like them. They are a normal couple, and i think that's ok. If you look at real life couples (especially married couples but just dating too), they don't always have giant drama, but they don't also act like the MMs all the time. They love eachother, but they don't have to show it 24/7.

[@kap1618]

But that makes for a dull story.

[@audreyharris7643]

​@@kap1618unfortunately

[@maxismyname5529]

The oddest part on chaggie is how neutered it feels. A ton of the others relationships get sexualized a TON even ones that are as soft and fluffy. The main distinction is that Charlie and vaggie are fem X fem. All the others include a man at some capacity from masc X masc and masc X fem. It feels super squeaky clean like they are getting the “women don’t think of sex” treatment for no reason.

[@audreyharris7643]

They just seem like a calm regular couple which dosent sound bad.

[@Avatarbee]

Here's hoping that the second season gives them more episode to explore the characters. I would love a episode that addresses the power imbalance in Chaggie.

[@mirkohoble]

Knowing Viv, ha! But seeing that she is being helped by professional writers 7/24, this time I hope they do something with this LOUD issue.

[@CipherRage-tp5ql]

​@@mirkohoble I still doubt it. The chick will probably focus on making angelhusk canon because she treats her male characters better than her female ones.

[@isabellegoegebuer2777]

Ugh, I think Angel x Husker is...kinda cringe? @@CipherRage-tp5ql

[@budgetbrick5124]

That the show needs a second season just to get better speaks volumes to Viv writing she's not a bad person just a terrible writer which shows in both hazbin and hellvua boss.

[@mirkohoble]

@@isabellegoegebuer2777 same, they're better as friends.

[@delphoxhoopa7289]

THIS! It's a problem when you get more invested with a character when they're NOT around their significant other! Vaggie has believable and emotional moments with everyone EXCEPT Charlie. And when they're not around, Charlie is the ONLY thing Vaggie can think about! Their relationship feels like a romantic version of Elsa and Anna: they say they're partners, but the relationship is one-sided. One person clearly puts in more effort in the relationship than the other, but the person who puts in no effort get all the benefits.

[@grest-bi7qm]

[LONG RANT BECAUSE I'M A LESBIAN] I hate that Vaggie has NO meaningful relationships with ANYONE other than Charlie. Vaggie tells Husk to bring Angel back to the hotel not because she cares about Angel, but because she doesn't want Charlie to be sad. Vaggie calls out Angel for harassing Husk not because she sympathizes with Husk, but because she finds Angel's attitude annoying and not helpful to Charlie's goal. Vaggie asks Carmilla for help but just because Charlie told her to. Lute and Adam literally mutilated Vaggie and left her to die... and she only showed any real hatred towards them when they threatened to ruin her relationship with Charlie. The only time we see Vaggie interact with another character on her own terms is when she chats with Cherry the night before the battle (which is cool, Vaggie apparently likes violence due to her upbringing, but has refrained from indulging in it for Charlie's sake, and Cherry also enjoys violence), but we don't even get to hear what they were talking about! Because Vaggie isn't allowed to be a character outside of Charlie. Also, Charlie is a shitty gf, idc. Fun fact: In the script Charlie wrote for Sir Pentious, she considers having sex before marriage to be as bad as drugs. Charlie and Vaggie are not married, so... VAGGIE, GET OUT OF THERE! That's why I'm going to cling to my Vaggie x Velvette enemies to lovers delusion for now (Even aesthetically they fit together better than Chaggie, don't get me started). In my ideal version of the show: Vaggette would be endgame. Vaggie would actually be fond of Angel, Husk, Niffty, and Sir Pentious instead of just tolerating them (but she would obviously try to hide it). Vaggie and Cherry would be war-hungry pals. The teacher-student relationship between Carmilla and Vaggie would develop further. And Vaggie would have some weird toxic sapphic tension with Lute (I'm talking Catradora AT ITS WORST). I'd also lean toward Charlie being a sheltered, moronic prude rather than an edgy Disney protagonist that is a sheltered, moronic prude anyway, but I digress.

[@camerondalton1495]

I like what you have cooking. Some great ideas there.

[@grest-bi7qm]

@@camerondalton1495 Thank you! :D

[@camerondalton1495]

@@grest-bi7qm My pleasure. What do you think could be done to improve Charlie as a character in your eyes?

[@vlindors]

​@@grest-bi7qm idk why but i rlly wanna see Vox as more-of-a parental figure towards Velvette in S2, but he has a toxic relationship with Val n whatnot- another skittles person hanging onto their delusional fantasies!! >_

[@MisterDeplume]

I would have loved it if we got the 'bomb underneath the table' where someone at the hotel knows Vaggie's an angel early on, probably Alistor, and then uses that to blackmail her throughout the season, until the reveal. Because I feel like then, all the scenes of them being lovey dovey and supportive of each other would have a layer to it of tension that could build and really make the reveal feel more groundbreaking for their relationship.

[@seanrobert593]

Gotta admin, if my partner literally chucked me unto a place I made clear I didn't want to go to, I wouldn't be thier partner anymore. Vaggie takes alot of crap from Charlie, and I'm not here for it.

[@michylichy01]

Oh god, this relationship is kinda toxic We know Charlie love Vaggie, but what they show us can confuse, Vaggie always do everything for Charlie, but the other don't, that doesn't feel balance We need more in this relationship Also, I feel like charlie need more interaction with all the members of the hotel, when she said that she love everyone I didn't believe her, we don't saw her interact enough to believe that, is more credible when Vaggie tell the other that if they go she understands, because we saw her building trust with them and they trust her that's why they don't leave, with Charlie we don't have that

[@amarg7657]

I’m glad you made this video. I had a similar experience with a friend , i wasn’t dating this person, but our friendship was similar to the dynamic of vaggie and Charlie without the romance obviously, like how u explained Charlie is the leader and vaggie built their entire identity around them and once I gained enough confidence to end the friendship I felt so much better anytime I had an idea or thought we should do something. We always just did what he wanted. so I hated the dynamic of vaggie and Charlie off the bat because I noticed how anytime vaggie mentioned an idea or something they should do, Charlie just did the opposite and it irritated me

[@odhranmctigue6597]

I wish at the start of episode 7 it started with a massive shouting match between Charlie and Vaggie about how Vaggie didn't tell Charlie where Charlie would show a similar side she showed to Adam in episode 8 where she was genuinely mad, her horns could come out. Then we might see Vaggie try her physical touch thing that this video spoke of only for Charlie to bat her hand away saying something like "don't tell me to calm down!" Maybe even physically threatening her in anger or doing something that frightens Vaggie and periodically breaks their bond, then when it all cools down at the end of the episode or even the moments before More Than Anything Reprise they have a proper deep talk about what happened but their relationship would still be somewhat shaky, then in the final episode when all is said and done Charlie realises she needs Vaggie and Vaggie needs her

[@ishkajules]

1:49 "the pacing for this show is fast as hell" Me: Haha. And they are in Hell.

[@nikkifri1150]

I didn't even realize how much Charlie just steams ahead with her own plans while Vaggie is trying to warn her or calm her down most of the time. I hope Charlie listens more next season and Vaggie develops more of her own identity next season.

[@SammyRobinson62232]

Sometimes I wish Hazbian Hotel didn’t write their entire stories when they only had 8 episodes. But instead wrote their story where it can be made in 8 episodes. For example it can be focusing on Angle Dust and his story as Charlie, Husk, and Vaggie, along with some other characters help him get through it. While hinting at the Heaven stuff. Basically being a slow burn. But hey that’s just my opinions

[@pox9939]

During the pilot i didn’t know they were dating 😭 and I used to ship Charlie and alastor long ago during the pilot but now chaggie is super cute in the last episode (:

[@nummipills]

ironically i think viz knew how boring their relationship was and tried to spice it up with unnecessary drama that contradicted the characters

[@CaffeinatedRoman]

I thought it was weird Vaggie didn't fight harder against going to heaven, especially because of what she had to worry about up there

[@Gnidel]

Just because the management of Heaven is shady doesn't mean that average angel isn't waaaay happier than average sinner. It's still worth to go to heaven.

[@camerondalton1495]

Agreed.

[@aliendays5616]

the only time I actually felt something for their relationship was during their song together. It was so cute and heartfelt. But for the rest of the season, i never got the impression that Charlie really cared about Vaggie. obviously I'm sure she does, but it was never really shown! If I didn't know anything about the show before watching it, i might have assumed they were just friends (ignoring when Vaggie calls Charlie petnames)

[@asaknight321]

This is why I left helluva boss. I'm not waiting 4+ years for the will they won't they only for something predictable to happen between blitz and Stolas. I love angel and husk but If viv stopped hyping up something that didn't exist yet and gave time for the couple that already is a thing we would be better off.

[@Nerd704]

I feel like angel and husk got an appropriate amount of screen time this season. Carmine was the character that ate a bunch of screen time with almost nothing to show for it (other than an AMAZING va). I feel like A: Vaggie should have been the one to kill an exorcist, she already has an angelic weapon it would have been easier. She doesn't tell anyone because she's afraid heaven will try and take her away from Charlie. This opens up a lot more time to develop interesting things with Vaggie than having her there as just sort of "Charlie's girlfriend and second in command of the hotel".

[@siv4975]

@asaknight321 What did you mean by predictable? Is it going to be predictable that they end up becoming a couple? Because obviously that wouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but I think Blitz and Stolas would make a very entertaining couple to watch, I don't think their characters are going to be stalled in their development just because of their relationship or anything like that. And I think it will be fun to see what kind of situations they can fall into once they're in a relationship. Plus if this is more about "I don't like that they're focusing so much on Stolas and Blitz" complaints, it's his main romantic interest, obviously they're going to get maximum screen time because it's one of their most important relationships and one of the most interesting. But I guess there is something for everyone (the Angel x Husk ship is going to be one of the most cute ships in Hazbin I think).

[@asaknight321]

@@siv4975 I mean it's gonna be great but this show is not as consistent as many would like it to be. Not bad but a decline has been spotted. I hope the show does well for the rest of the series but right now I don't see the hype

[@asaknight321]

@@Nerd704 this comment right here. Hot Carmel pants took too much time

[@klamacz47]

​@@siv4975the thing is... Will they won't they often end with pair being finally together...and then show's over (friends, she-ra, adventure time, avatar etc.)

[@Onyxcherry]

Perhaps in the next season, Charlie will start to try take Vaggie’s concern more seriously (hopefully)

[@no-life4438]

The story how both of them fell in love is so dumb. Vaggie was an angel a second ago out to kill demons what wouldve stopped vaggie from killing charlie?? I wish vaggie started non trusting at first and than gradually liking/trusting charlie.

[@Vaggiescoochsniffer]

You clearly don’t have any bit of a brain or pay attention to the show, just because they were shown meeting doesn’t mean that’s automatically how their relationship started.

[@Nerd704]

We saw how they met not how they fell in love.

[@snakesareamazing]

I think it's pretty obvious why Vaggie fell in love with Charlie, despite her being a demon. Vaggie lost an eye and got her wrings ripped off by someone that was supoosed to be on her team. And even before that, I doubt her relationships with the other angels was very deep. And her boss literally named her after female genitlia, I'm sure she was absolutely thrilled to be constantly sexualized by a man. So Charlie was probably the first person in a really long time that showed her genuine kindness, in a moment where Vaggie had nobody that actually cared about her

[@chloerose1342]

I mean. She was left in hell literally because she didn’t want to kill a demon…so she already had some thoughts that what they were doing wasn’t 100% correct. And I also feel like the experience of being maimed and abandoned by those who were telling her to kill demons, in combination with a demon showing you compassion moments later…would definitely make you question everything you know very quickly. Which you also have incentive to do in order to survive because, you know, you’re stuck in hell now. Demons are the only people around. …and vivziepop said on stream that she thinks they started off as good friends for a long while and mutual feelings developed over time. But even if that wasn’t a case, it doesn’t surprise me that she immediately clung hard to the girl who extended an olive branch when she had nobody. In her position, I might become obsessed with Charlie lol

[@lumityviktuuristanartist4100]

She didn’t fall in love with her back then , that was the moment they met , and what stopped her from killing charlie was she was literally in a vulnerable state , got her wings torn off and eye cut , she was weak at that moment and realized charlie despite being a demon , still helped her up , and i'm pretty sure at that moment vaggie felt angry at her team so that's why trusting a demon wasn’t in her mind

[@mofthemoth5755]

I was like "oh. Theyre. There. I guess" about them for most of the show until the flashback of them meeting happened and it kinda hit me and i was like 'OH. THERES A BIT OF DEPTH HERE ACTUALLY". I wish they explored the complexities of the princess of hell dating a fallen angel more and i wanted more of charlie being there for vaggie

[@camerondalton1495]

Season 2.

[@LilMissForgotten-nx4kf]

Me and my gf personally love Chaggie. I dont see how theyre boring? Not everyone shows theyre romance in the way they expect them too. Me my gf see ourselves on Charlie and Vaggie.

[@fruitloops2058]

8:14 that editing was way too smooth for this joke.

[@sodaleche]

You Didn't Know was an amazing song, but Charlie's outburst to Vaggie ("keep a cool head") would've had so much more impact if she didn't already have that oddly solid track record of going against what she says. Vaggie's character also kind of gets shot whenever she's with Charlie and that's something that should never happen with a relationship you want the audience to root for, not to mention how hard it was to take Vaggie seriously when even her girlfriend has trouble doing so (I have issues with Charlie, but that's a separate topic, I think). I still like the show and More Than Anything revived my extinguished hope for the ship, but there are so many improvements and adjustments they could've made to be better as a whole and it's a bit of a bummer.

[@katanamoon536]

When I first saw the pilot I didn’t even know these two were together. Which is why I shipped them with any other character

[@sketchframestudio]

totally see where youre coming from tbh when i started noticing this pattern too i had to wonder if the intent was actaully to have them break up in season 2 as a sort of character realization point for them both . that maybe they are intentionally written to be in a one sided relationship .

[@goodchaos7386]

and even if they did go in that route, that would’ve been a good thing, because people want buildup, they want interaction, not oh they’re all already together..

[@camerondalton1495]

You can have them already be a couple, but there wasn't much for them to do other than just be a couple.