Cicero and Clodius: Best of Enemies

[@tribunateSPQR]

What does the feud between Cicero and Clodius tell us about the politics of the late Republic?

[@StanGB]

that you couldn't trust anyone else!

[@MrLee-cy1pw]

They definitely needed some checks and balances lol

[@rursus8354]

You said it all yourself: it was not about ideology, but about personal grudges and hate. A different aspect not treated here, is that the Roman upper class was built upon a cleptocracy that had stolen or "expropriated" land from other Romans that could not keep it cultivated due to being soldiers in the war against enemies. The class gap was vast, and ideologies did not make any sense, because there were the internally fighting upper class with their violent mobs, and there were the lower classes for which the upper class vendettas were bloody feuds that just made you bloodied or dead ... or both.

[@laisphinto6372]

Anyone trying to explain Roman politics should avoid at First the elections , the Magistrate,the Senate and assemblies and First Break down and understand the patronage system. If you dont understand the patronage system and how Roman families Work you wont understand Roman politics at all. Also USA was, IS and never will be Rome No Matter how hard the Americans LARP they are Just one of the thousands of larpers WHO Desperately want to BE Rome

[@B_Estes_Undegöetz]

Just in time for lights out here and bed time! An excellent way to end the day. A new modest bounty of knowledge before some restorative and blissful slumber. Just FYI … while a new video is still “members only” it cannot be enjoyed in background player mode (after the screen locks) even with a KZbin Premium subscription. The sound stops playing as well. Not sure why … but old videos no longer in the new members only designation don’t misbehave this way. Oh well … tomorrow or tomorrow night instead. But even just after a few minutes when the screen locks this video stops playing. Must be a bug. Thanks for another excellent video comrades!!!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!!! Not sure why the videos are locked like that while on members only must be a problem with the code. Hopefully it gets fixed.

[@trojanthedog]

This channel needs more followers who have actually studied ancient history.

[@illerac84]

It’s growing. Better that a dedicated fanbase spreads the word.

[@stephencronin1080]

Why that they specifically had studied ancient history?

[@locker011]

It is challenging for to express how much I enjoy and look forward to your videos! Is there any other channels you have pr might recommend for me with a similar explanatory nature of topics.

[@davidbowen5621]

Clodius is really one of my favorite personalities of the 1st Century BC. A fascinating figure and a real firebrand for his day. I'm glad the historical Cicero is revealed more and more over time. Really liked this one.

[@avalle4493]

Fascinating the amount of great men that Rome produce that century alone. I will argue that any of them couldve rule. And the fact that Caesar and Octavian rose and won in such a hyper-competitive world make them even greater

[@illerac84]

@@avalle4493 It really is interesting to think of all the people that died in that last century of war, that if the Republic has lasted another lifetime, wound have risen tondo great things of record.

[@StanGB]

a really informative lens to examine late republican politics

[@GrainedCube2214]

Cicero truly was the Saul Goodman of the Roman Republic

[@tribunateSPQR]

He would pretty much take up any cause or any case so long as he felt it would advance his own career.

[@JonBrownSherman]

Although he was very opportunistic, he was a man of high personal integrity and had an honorable code of conduct. He was much less morally dubious than Saul, who is a criminal at the end of the day.

[@hhsdhhsss1522]

​@JonBrownSherman He likely wasn't he was probably just another power hungry careerist like every other roman politician in history

[@InessentialMotionPictures]

Jimmy McGill was from Cicero, Illinois.

[@Onezy05]

Truly a BCC moment (Better Call Cicero)

[@uhlijohn]

“Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.” - Marcus Tullius Cicero

[@bertieclayton4865]

This quote says it all. Cicero doesnt understand that the plebs would have no intereet in protecting instuitions that dont represent in a particularly meaningful way...

[@illerac84]

Those proles just need to lift themselves up by their sandals.

[@B_Estes_Undegöetz]

Sycophant of the elite Senatorial and Patrician classes he wished he’d been born to, Cicero libels the Roman People and misrepresents Caesar’s revolutionary land redistributive and debt-canceling intentions, and cynically attacks the Roman People’s virtue simply for seeking economic justice where they could find it in Caesar. The fact that our sycophant history teachers ever since have bent over backwards to assess Cicero one of Rome’s greatest, most creative and eloquent citizens tells us they too would rather kiss the ass of the wealthy and powerful than accurately identify their common economic class interests with the common plebeians, and help students understand the ECONOMIC class conflict of the century of civil wars that lead to the end of Roman Republic in favor of the rigidly hierarchical police state that was the Roman Empire. A tragic loss for the common hardworking Roman citizen. It is long since time to re-assess Cicero for what he was; a purveyor of false consciousness, a cynical promoter of “virtues” long destroyed by the greedy and hyper competitive ultra wealthy Roman ruling classes, a promoter of traditional hierarchy wherever he encountered it as long he could take a place one or two steps from the very top by puckering up and smooching at the bottoms of the ruling class, who’d only ever put up with him, never embrace him as one of their own. What a weasel. Stop teaching kids what a great citizen Cicero was when he hated the common people he came from, and by extension the common working people throughout history. A class traitor and a sycophant.

[@illerac84]

@@B_Estes_Undegöetz Cicero was far from common, he just wasn’t top crust.

[@fuoridalsentiero]

Such an engaging video ! The rivalry between these two historical figures is fascinating, and the way it's presented makes it even more interesting. Great analysis and storytelling! Thank you friend for sharing this part of history! Like 532! We join your channel!

[@Flow86767]

How did you not mention that Clodius got the most badass funeral by being burned in a funeral pire in a senate house?

[@benbrouder3927]

More Cicero!!!!!

[@eclecticapoetica]

can you do a video of Cicero against Verres? the whole thing is absolutely slay.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

I remember studying these whacky events at uni. Such shenanigans! 😮😂

[@robstewartstewart98]

Hello Tribunate! Recently discovered your channel and have been MARATHONING episodes to catch up! (Also…THIRTEEN!) I have what may seem an odd, alternate history question for you. Do you think Octavian or Tiberius might have gotten away with instituting the following: 1. Declares he shall only be called Imperator Major. 2. Ensures that all the elections that happened during the republican era still happen. 3. The Imperator Major is given the right to choose to interfere in debates between the Consuls. The Imperator Major must come to the Senate and tell them he is doing this. This triggers a situation where he and the two Consuls vote together. Whoever gets two out of the three wins the debate. 4. The Imperator Major is regarded as being fully in charge of: . All territory outside of mainland Italy (Imperator Major is in charge of Sicily) . The military . The police force Octavian established in OTL 5. The Imperator Major is to choose his designated heir, the Imperator Minor. 6. The Imperator Minor may not be any closer than a fourth cousin to the Imperator Major. 7. The Imperator Major may choose a different Imperator Minor for any reason. However, such a decision must be made formally in front of the Senate. It cannot be on the Imperator's deathbed or in their will. 8. Either Consul may call for an Imperator Minor to be removed. However, if they do so, a vote happens among the Consuls and Imperator Major. Would have to pass unanimously.

[@justinstrong9595]

This channel really needs more views.

[@terranman4702]

Clodius Pulcher, the troublemaker from begin to end.

[@fredburns6846]

I would really enjoy a video where you are a bit more critical of caesar In most your videos caesar is painted in quite a good light and while i generally agree that caesar was probably a good guy, theres always a bit of doubt. He was obviously a reformer in times when reform was needed, but how much of his actions are out of genuine conviction, and how much just out of powerhunger? Ps: id also be interested in how caesar might have transformed the republic if he hadnt been assasinated

[@WorthlessWinner]

You missed out that they were apparently friendly early on.

[@jamescarrico1233]

Is this a rerelease?

[@GoogleUserOne]

Cicero v Antony. Seeing how Antony had him killed and all.

[@1023179152]

11:02 do you mean he (Pompey) would take Cicero’s spot as the target?

[@delespai5592]

I paused and rewound at that, but I think he means that Cicero was "forgotten" while exiled and Pompey was the new focus of Clodius's hostilities. So if Pompey got Cicero back to Rome then Clodius would switch his focus back to him.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

While I believe that Clodius did sneak into the Bona Dea festival, the idea that he did it to try and seduce Caesar's wife I find highly unlikely, there were easier ways to do that. So that's why I think Clodius might have been what we would today call Trans or Fluid. Fulvia's funeral speech after Clodius Murder derives to be immortalized Dramatically like the similar funeral speech of her future husband. I've even considered trying to write a multi season Anime with Fulvia as the lead and season 1 ending with the death of Clodius.

[@illerac84]

I think he was simply that impious. Some of the writings of other authors that time have some crazy theories of what happened at the Bona Dea. You just needed someone that had the nerve and lack of “respect” around at the appropriate time.

[@laisphinto6372]

That Sounds ridiculous especially when our scources who all mostly hate him never mention that , If there was a slightest hint of that WE would hear IT way more and louder

[@sugar_walls]

wait if cicero was real does that mean the night mother was real also...?? crazy... surely not the dark brotherhood too??

[@racorker]

Bump

[@user-wy7wl5on7l]

I've watched a lot of your videos since recently discovering them. I wanted to leave this comment as you may find it helpful. The use so liberally of 'reactionary' is extremely unhelpful and somewhat distasteful. Avoiding being so liberal with such will likely help you reach more people. It almost feels as to smear even if it is not meant in such a way.

[@laisphinto6372]

The Guy cannot Put His modern Politics to the Side , He IS a real Case of Smashing modern US politics into a society that didnt Work that way. Rome didnt have Parties Not even groups they Had individuals and IT revolved around them . Thats why people are so confused with Guys Like pompey or caesar because they dont fit the right or left Side box