Civic Type R Ownership | A Trip to Crazy Town

We discuss the pros and cons of owning the FL5 Civic Type R and comparisons to the Integra Type S. We discuss the engineering and technical side of the car with a deep dive into modern sports car philosophy. We talk about what makes the car unique. Others are VW Golf R, Elantra N, GR Corolla, Integra Type S, and Subaru WRX.
#cars #engineering #technology
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Code: Piano Black
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Index:
00:00 Intro and Story
1:38 Interior and Exterior
4:00 Using as a Real Car
5:03 Montage Artificial
5:30 Explaining Type R and Body
9:50 Aero
11:40 Cooling
12:20 Suspension and Steering
19:15 Engine
20:00 DynoJet Results King Motorsports
20:39 Brakes
21:33 Weight
22:08 Sound Enhancement
24:07 MotoCompacto Race and Piano Black Jack
25:19 Street Drive
36:16 Conclusions

[@lucagattoni-celli1377]

Stop making excuses and downplaying yourself, Mark. We are never bored, we like this stuff! Maybe your analytics say otherwise, but a large segment of your audience comes here for a deep engineering perspective they cannot get literally anywhere else!

[@bokiNYC]

Agree 100%! 👍

[@aceofspades6667]

But they like the constant compliments so set the bar low and crush it every time

[@GurinderSinghGirn]

+1

[@singular9]

Personally I don't like it. We all know as a KZbinr you get preferential treatment and you can pick a car whenever you want and switch it out and always be comfortable. 99% of people can't even afford a Honda fit from 10 years ago. Let alone this Civic. It's already unobtainium for the maturity of people out there and when someone's out here telling us how awesome it is to own it. It's not that we are spiteful and don't want someone to have it good but rather them trying to convince us that this is something special. It's not at the end of the day. This isn't what people wanted.

[@brandonchism6960]

Well said

[@spade118]

10-15 years from now when this car is no longer around... This video will be. There will be that 2nd or 3rd owner who wants to know why the car is so special. This video will keep them hooked and they will love every minute. Thanks for preserving Hondas history with this effort. The enthusiasts appreciate the effort.

[@calesticall128]

5years ago new enginering mechanical.

[@Dowlphin]

15 years from now people might be saying: "I tried the 2024 Civic Type-R but I couldn't handle its utter lack of assists long-term." Meanwhile people who find it awful and prefer a car from 2000 are probably already dead. The old cars might even have gotten destroyed by ecofascists who are calling them rolling climate crimes.

[@psewgobind]

Given that Toyota has taken up the baton and they're not holding back, I suspect they've yet to make the ultimate ICE sport car that'll defy electrification. The bulky Type-R will be a gas guzzler in comparison... Type-R is Honda's ego trip and a pretend car for the masses. Bottom feeder KZbin channel have this car as their main.

[@Vermonstered]

​@@psewgobindNo idea why you're always jumping on some other bandwagon and projecting yourself onto other people and brands... 😂

[@psewgobind]

@@Vermonstered It's a wonderful thing to project truth that resinates. Those with rigid realities are the problem.

[@joeblacc8573]

Mark we love this sh*t lol. Vids like these are why we subscribe and I’m sure play a part in why you’ve gotten unprecedented access to the manufacturing process. This coulda been twice as long I’m sure 98% of us would still watch. Cliche I know but “keep it up and don’t change”.

[@dielaughing73]

Totally. Most car journalists wouldn't care enough or be able to interpret the language of the engineers and designers. The few that do, deserve the chance to tell these stories.

[@Ozgrade3]

You summed up my thoughts exactly. He is simply the best car technical reviewer in the world. On a cheeky note I have an idea for merch. Coffee mug with the writing "I survived the Savagegeese technical presentation".

[@neuronbob]

I am an ITS owner, Honda dude, and CTR appreciator. 1. Thanks for all the technical info as it helps me to understand my car better. 2. You are 100% correct in my opinion, about Honda not bringing back the old NSX and S2000, the reasons for doing so, and that for people who want that experience, to buy those cars now. (15 year S2000 owner, 8 year NSX owner here.) 3. CTR and ITS are an excellent one-car solution for the enthusiast with a family….if they are willing to pay the price and ADM. ITS is easier to find at MSRP at the moment. Thank you again!

[@ryuradeon]

Well said! I have an s2k that I track and bought an ITS a couple of months ago as my daily....and I have a wife and 2 kids, and one is still in a car seat. I was cross shopping the CTR and ITS, and went with an Apex Blue ITS because I was able to snag one at MSRP after months of shopping all around. Honestly, if I sell the s2k, the ITS is so good that it could easily be a capable hpde car and an ideal daily. It doesn't even matter that it's a fwd family hatch!

[@IllIIllllIlIlIll]

I read this and thought to myself, this sounds like Bob from AcuraZine. Then I looked at the username and it was you 😂

[@neuronbob]

@@IllIIllllIlIlIll outed 🤣🤣

[@hondaman8648]

It's won't hold its value as well as an R

[@ryuradeon]

@hondaman8648 I don't care as much about resale as I'm actually driving it and didnt pay a markup....all transmissions come from Japan, all k20c engines are built here in Ohio. They are essentially mechanically identical, and turn identical lap times down to the 100th of a second. I'm 35, so I appreciate the daily creature comforts of the ITS. Also, production numbers are just about the same as well.

[@Static-MT]

We are never bored. The videos are never too technical or too long. They are never too in-depth or long winded. Let it all rip with these videos. If you're feeling self-conscious, just start making 5 minute drag race videos. Do not ease up on the in-depth videos. Thank you!

[@skidstung]

Just letting you know, you never bore us with technical information. The stuff you provide you can't get elsewhere. It's what makes this channel stand out. It such a nice listen too, even on a commute. So thank you very much!

[@The_Stanman]

Totally agree. And if it's too much for someone, they can just skip to the drive section.

[@TingTingMelody]

As a fan of Honda, I really appreciate Mark's coverage of his S2000 and now CTR. I watched his S2000 video numerous times before finally purchasing one a few years ago, and still go back to it every now and then to learn more about it. I would love to buy a CTR someday, but without dealer mark up which might mean never. But at least I have Mark's videos and hopefully learned something.

[@HelloImVangkou]

They will def be able to be had without mark up. Just be ready to buy and willing to contact many dealers. Esp on 23’s when the 24s are en route

[@lucianholbrook3966]

Good news I see plenty used examples on sale today in the mid 40s.

[@air-headedaviator1805]

The engineering of the Type R is fascinating. So much more subtle than you’d think yet very purposeful. Like it really is taking a normal car and making it as much a race car as you can.

[@jmb1215]

Professionally tuned 🔧 by Honda

[@Sideways_Singh]

As much race car as u can while still being fun and streetable. It could be more race car but no one would want that it would ruin the car. Most race cars arent as fun to drive as street cars n there brutal.

[@hassyg4083]

yeh slow 0-60

[@captsavage3049]

This video is amazing. Thank you guys for what you do. I waffled so much on ordering a 22 SI and you guys are what finally convinced me to do it. It’s been an amazing car. I know everyone seems to want to have their own hot take, but I love what Honda has managed to do in this era of soulless cars.

[@I_know_what_im_talking_about]

Which is what…? They also made a soulless Zombie just like everyone else 😆 We only like it cause it has a Honda TYPE-R badge on it. Any manufacturer that has stooped down to using fake engine sounds coming from the speakers is DEAD TO ME. 😢

[@fhowland]

I'm looking at one too...my daily is still my 2008 SI. What do you like most about it? Any regrets about not spending the extra cash on a type R?

[@mofayer]

​@@I_know_what_im_talking_aboutdid you even watch the video?

[@DB-sd3cw]

​@I_know_what_im_talking_about poor little dude. You're too slow to understand how important good handling, a solid drivetrain and daily drivability is huh?

[@captsavage3049]

@@fhowland I always wanted a fun Civic in my teens and 20s and never could afford one. It’s got all the fun factor of those early 2000s ricers my rich friends had. I had a couple Corollas over the years and no matter how sporty you try to outfit a Corolla, they always feel like an econo car IMO. I think the SI has a perfect balance of usability and fun. And I can’t answer versus the Type R because they’re virtually unobtainium. I’ve honestly not seen a current gen type R in person yet.

[@CruiseControl1]

When I drove the fk8 type r I was astounded by the ride quality in comfort mode, the practicality of the hatchback, the precision of the 6 speed manual and the piece de resistance was the cornering grip performance and lack of understeer. I think the fl5 looks better inside and out but the fk8 is finally coming down on the used car market and it may find a place next to my nb1 Miata in the garage.

[@bryanbohlken7653]

Shoot for 2021 fk8. It has a ton of upgrades over the previous fk8 models

[@jlui21]

-- i just checked the used market value for a 2021 CTR. $39K w/ 40k miles?!?!!?!?!?!?! MSRP was $38K.

[@CruiseControl1]

@@jlui21 I found older fk8’s for $28k and that’s tempting

[@tammerfarid]

I was fortunate enough to drive an FK8 CTR at the Nürburgring. I was overall not impressed. Cooling issues, shifter seemed fragile. Great chassis feel but overall experience was a letdown. I spoke with the mechanics at the business I rented it from and they confirmed their CTRs had been really problematic. For street use only, great car, but I’d avoid if you plan any track work. I followed those laps with a few in a Megáne RS and a Hyundai i30N, and found both to be more balanced handling (better rotation) and more fun/less fragile feeling.

[@CruiseControl1]

@@tammerfarid Intresting experience and not at all what I have seen here in the States. I have seen many CTR’s at track days and they are not the ones pulled over for cooling issues. Typically it has been very reliable but upgrading the cooling for a track car is very important.

[@desaturat8d]

If I'm being honest, I'm not even necessarily in the market for a type-r but I still found this video very thoughtful and insightful. Thank you for sharing the technical information as well as your own personal insight and philosophy. It does have the feeling of an end of an era and what a way to go out.

[@John-gq7vt]

Another reason we long for the sporty four cylinder manuals of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's... "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I don't know who came up with that, an owner of a fast car or a slow car, but they were on to something. I love the time I spend driving my '87 CRX Si.

[@lordraiden5398]

I agree. I have a 2002 WRX that I bought new. Through the years I made it faster and did some handling mods. In 2012 I finally blew the motor after 172,000 miles. It has sat and sat. In 2019 I bought a slow 2009 Forester X non turbo to daily while I finally fixed my WRX. Found out STi everything fits on the Forester. It has full aftermarket suspension and handles better than the WRX ever did. I have done nothing to the motor. 170hp stock. It is so much fun when people with much more expensive cars can't keep up in the corners. The WRX has a table full of parts to go on but yet it still sits.

[@drjk7565]

@@lordraiden5398 An old WRX sounds like a hoot to drive, though apparently the new one isn't bad either, especially since the FA24F engine holds up to mods quite well - a huge plus considering the enormous catalog of aftermarket WRX parts. The plastic cladding may look weird, but at least you can take it on a dirt road, drive like the late Colin McRae, and not worry about the wheel arches rusting.

[@backnu]

Let me know how an underpowered car works for you on a medium sized track. These reviews play into small tracks that cater to small cars and tight corners to make it look like it's a competitive car. You need a decent amount of power and a 50k, 300 horsepower car will have you being passed by just about everything except for a Miata or BRZ That is unless you fall for the marketing where they place the car on the smallest of tracks that don't really amount to anything other than playing into deception and marketing.

[@JacesOwnWorld]

lol. Tell me how you’ve never owned a fast car, without telling me.

[@4Kandlez]

@@backnu Why are you worried about cars passing you, you in a race or something?

[@censoredialogue]

2nd gen BRZ owner here. i loved your GR86 long term series and i know i’m gonna love this. as a huge car nerd and gearhead, y’all’s channel drops knowledge we can’t get anywhere else. much love.

[@TiMtImInYtImTiM]

As a Rallye Red FL5 owner in the UK it's always good to hear educated opinions from people who actually take the time to know and understand. It's really difficult to silence the neigh-sayers and there are a lot of them. And this video is a good place to point them. Educational and a genuinely great watch.

[@preludeh22a57]

nice car... but it's only a honda! Better go for Vauxhall Insignia Turbo

[@Club-Version]

I’m so happy with my FL5!! Honestly it’s been the best duel purpose car I’ve ever owned.

[@wumao8842]

waa! congrats

[@davelospinoso9022]

How heavy is the clutch?

[@dl9775]

Not heavy at all.

[@Thkfast]

Glad to hear Mark mention MR2. The driving experience I had with my new 1988 MR2 Supercharged has never been duplicated. 145hp felt fast. RWD, plenty of grip, a wonderful green house with the T-tops...that car was memorable.

[@RetroMotiveAdventures]

Totally agree! I just restored my 88 SC MR2 recently, full rebuilt and built later spec motor, LSD 5 speed from a low mileage Japanese spec car. Full TRD headers, motor mounts, recaros the whole 9 yards. Ive yet to find a sports car that competes with the sheer joy it can put on your face at any speed.

[@GoodOleGrant]

Haven’t commented in a while but the long form videos are incredible especially when you and the team talk about where the car market is today in the past or present during your car rides. You all still share your honest opinion without trying to appease the car industry executives or companies and thats what makes the video worth watching in my opinion.

[@dreamdrivedrift]

Looking forward to getting a FL5. You hit the nail on the head - I have dedicated sports cars (S2000, E46 M3) but they have become more point A to point A type cars for a multitude of reasons and I don't drive them much. I was stuck trying to figure out what daily to get to replace my BRZ (not really looking to keep these past 50k miles and the shifter/clutch/throttle tuning is terrible which is what you engage with on a daily basis). I was between a FL5 and a Miata (yes, I know) but ended up finding a FL5 "allocation" at near MSRP. It's just hard to find a car that still has driver engagement with normal driving. None of the Germans do it, my MK5 Supra was deadass boring to drive unless you were going 10-11/10. I hope your channel helps the manufacturers understand we (enthusiasts) are still out here looking for cars with driving engagement. The FL5, Miata, and BRZ all engage the driver in different ways with the FL5 obviously being the most practical. Glad Honda has kept what makes their cars so engaging to drive (fantastic inputs, engine character, driver engagement) while still offering great practicality & reliability. Hoping I like it for the long term.

[@lensoprezole5322]

Around the years 2000, the Civic type R was a dream car for young drivers, but nowadays the only true exciting affordable sports car is named : ND3 MX-5 Miata. It is your LAST CHANCE ! Don't miss it before they soon all become hybrids.

[@OldRustySteele]

Mark & Jack are simply THE BEST car reviewers. Detailed, technical, honest, and I enjoy their snarky humor. (And I’m an old dude.) Savagegeese is my go-to source for auto reviews, and I rate them better than Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, and all the other KZbin channels. And I watch/read most of them.

[@zain508]

The engineering is why I watch you guys you're like the automotive Digital Foundry but even better!!!

[@becraftcorey]

It's sad because they keep getting better, that comes with more cost. Back in the day we would buy the basic Honda civic and build it ourselves, now everyone wants to buy an out of the box super awesome car and pay low entry price.

[@friznutzs]

It's really impressive that they designed the turbo to spool up so quickly while also not choking the hell out of the engine at higher RPM. My 1.5t FK7 clearly gets choked out above 4.7k rpm and it makes it barely worth it to rev much past that.

[@Hogheadgolfer]

I owned a 2018 sport hatchback before I bought my 2021 Type R. I honestly believe anyone who owns a Type R, should’ve owned a Sport first. The Sport is a fantastic car, great handling and excellent fuel economy. It’s a blast to drive. I enjoyed every mile for three years. Then I drove my new R in September 2021. Holy shit! It is an absolute beast. I was almost shaking from the excitement of everything it does. The sport and R look very much alike, and when I sat in the R for the first time, everything looked and felt familiar. That is, until you push the start button. It’s insane! But I will say this: I preferred the steering wheel in my sport, over the R. The sport’s is a little bit thicker, and just feels better. I get a lot of waves from people in their Sport model, and I always wave back. They own a sweet car too!

[@nateTrh]

Yep, the guys that tried to tune/build the 1.5t have bascially said it's an eco engine first. The airflow through the head and manifolds are awful and the rod bolts and rods themselves are very weak. Apparently the CR-V's and Accords are starting to blow hesdgaskets and who knows if the oil dilution issues are really solved. It's an amazing engine for being a daily and for some light fun but it's definitely not a performance engine.

[@The_Noticer.]

They do that with VTEC. Normal cams for higher pressure at low rpm because it opens less, aggressive cam when it reaches higher rpm and needs flow. It only has it on the exhaust.

[@sjhudon386]

The Si is much more free revving up top.

[@666chew]

Your "final thoughts" was the best argument for the Miata ND3 that'll come out next year, as their last ICE powered Miata. Great show today.

[@abelldeez2146]

This is absolutely the best automotive content on the platform.

[@WhatupJesus69]

I have owned a 2021 Type R and currently drive a 2023 GR Corolla Circuit. Being a longtime Honda enthusiast I really wanted to get a FL5 but the current market was way too crazy. I was lucky enough to get my Circuit for MSRP so I couldn’t pass that up and I absolutely love it. If you pine for the days of classic Japanese sports car engineering, run out and get one of these great cars available right now. These amazing cars for sale today will be the classics we will be talking about in 10 years.

[@ericpromisco2213]

I also went with a GR CE and absolutely love it. I love the smaller size of the car and the engine note makes you feel something. For as good as the FL5 and FK8 are, the engine note makes me feel nothing. It's so bland and lifeless. I enjoyed my time driving an FK8, but I was more than happy to get back in my 8th gen si. Sure, it's slower, but the sound of 8k makes you forget all about it.

[@ij6708]

First gen GR corolla has AWD issues when driven slightly hard. Clutch packs get too hot and it'll default to FWD. Few overheating issues all around need to be fixed in next versions

[@GearHead_Media]

@@ij6708 I wouldn’t say “slightly hard” I drive my car hard on winding mountain roads for 30+ min non stop frequently without issues. This is ONLY a track issue for pretty much anyone as you really need to be pushing the car to its limits to get the clutch pack to overheat. I’m sure it could overheat on regular roads but if it is you are absolutely driving recklessly at that point.

[@SoxFam0us]

even though your analytics may say otherwise, the people i.e me who watch videos like this absolutely love them. no other channel does this type of content with the passion and sincerity like you and jack. keep it up

[@gray25xt]

Mark vs. Casey was awesome to watch, pause, compare, straight up great driving Mark! This video explains why I have a 1991 CRX Si and a 2000 Civic Si in my garage right now. I want to feel something. Keep up the great work gentlemen!

[@fhowland]

Thank you for the awesome deep dive - you guys deserve to have many more than 1 million subscribers! It's incredible the level of engineering that Honda put into this car. Looking forward to your future Honda videos including the NSX deep dive!

[@gettcouped]

Long winded yes, informative definitely. Appreciate you taking the time and being so detailed. It’s why I’m here for every video.

[@molskimauler]

The Tuxmat promo was seamless. No joke. Perfect 10.

[@Driven4fun]

I drove my friends Type R and I am not afraid to say today that I would of traded my 2023 M3 6MT for it, of course at the time with the M3 being new I had to justify but it is what it is, now that I ditched the M3 for a CT4V Blackwing I am digging passionate cars like the type R. And Mark, please keep doing what you do, you have no idea how much some of us appreciate your reviews !

[@mengx94]

Keep the BW and never look back. I want to post the come here with a cinder block meme after reading you'd trade an m3 for a ctr

[@crowntug]

How does the CT4V BW compare to the CTR despite the price difference?

[@khemchee4685]

I would of kept the m3 far superior to a Chevy. The s58 is a great reliable platform.

[@fl5_driver]

So happy you're making this amazing Honda content. I'm a long time Honda fan please dont stop. The passion in your videos keeps me coming back.

[@jordan18291]

Thanks Mark, I just picked up my FL5 last week and loving the video.

[@singular9]

Must be fun getting shafted by Honda for a civic

[@WhatisaLee]

​@@singular9 Seems like you speak from experience. Getting shafted, I mean. Let people enjoy what they enjoy. There's enough shit to be mad about, and this ain't one of them.

[@sbklvr]

Congratulations, I wish I could get one as a second car, I'm too worried about getting flat tires to have it as my only car. The FL5 and the Gulia are the only cars I would buy today. I own a Macan and can never own anything else. Suv wise. It's the perfect suv. Enjoy the type R, most people will only dream about it.

[@joeblacc8573]

@@singular9 it’s a fantastic machine. Get that hate out yo heart.

[@jordan18291]

Not really, MSRP only in Australia. @@singular9

[@sergeyr9184]

Phenomenal overview as usual Mark. Thank you for this! Nobody does it to this level. It’s so analytical, and precise with no BS. Undoubtedly its not a mass market review style. But like this FL5 it’s very special indeed.

[@RJtheREBEL21]

Mark, videos like this are why I have been subscribed and religiously watched you guys for years. Please never change and keep delivering videos like this that take a deep dive into the engineering and philosophy of these cars. I enjoy every minute of these longer videos and you see that many of the rest of this comment section does too.

[@gadeane287]

The final thoughts were outstanding to sum up your feelings and philosophy about the Type R. The rest of the video was not boring at all. Thanks for helping me defeat the tryptophan coma.

[@eppyz]

Still wouldn't trade my Evo 9 MR for one of these straight across. I think its great that Honda made this car, but Mitsubishi just nailed it with the Evo 9 MR. Sucks Mitsubishi doesn't make the Evo any longer. Or Ford the RS, or Subie the STI, pretty sad indeed.

[@bryy2053]

I appreciate the flavor of car reviews you provide to us, your audience. Never boring. Im better at narrowing my next purchase choice in part to your insight. Thank you! Keep it coming!

[@luisd.ramirezburgueno5245]

Man, I've been looking for a video and channel like this! A video where engineering aspects are explained in detail and you can get the passion from the voice. Keep up the work!

[@lawinsmalltimore]

when I needed to buy, dealer markup here in MD was $10-$15k above MSRP no matter who I called. Based on your review and my own test drive, I happily "settled" for and Si and, for what it is, it's a masterpiece. Sure I'd rather have an R but I cannot stomach the extreme mark ups.

[@koraegi]

Dealers near me were charging >40k for an si Insane

[@483SGT]

Imagine being one of the dudes who paid 10k over for an Si during peak pricing

[@nathanielsmith1892]

Dude!!! Si was sticker at 28k. The odds of you getting one for sticker is 0. You probably payed 38k out the door!!😂

[@Acquit808]

Dealers are the worst, they really hurt the brand and screw over the enthusiasts who those cars were built for.

[@lawinsmalltimore]

@@nathanielsmith1892 a 2023 stickered at $29k. I paid $2k over, which was the lowest add on I could find. And there were only two in my area at the time, the other one was 2 hours away and $5500 over.

[@mattadams7231]

Hey, great job, Mark. Looks like this car is a blast! Happy Holidays to you guys

[@chasenewberry6866]

This video perfectly encapsulates why I subscribed and continue to watch every upload, never change Mark

[@higg2156]

this is the best in depth analysis out there on the type r , absolutely love understanding the design and engineering thought process because it truly helps you understand and work with the vehicle..as others have said do not apologize for the length or depth of this video…I was dreading the end.

[@Vosovogalsyncope]

I'm proud of my NorCal Elk Grovians. The FL5s are sitting on the lot since the summer. Honda/Acura still not budging on the markups yet. One of them got parked by sprinklers, after warterspots you can see where the detailer swirled up the paint with wool pad.

[@khemchee4685]

Its a Joke! EG Honda wants close to 70k! And Future Honda is asking 75k! got them down to 56k! but no way will pay over sticker. told them im all in at msrp.

[@nebsampson8991]

Great video. I made the point about not being able to hear your own 4 cylinder while sharing the track with the V8s in the comments here a few months ago, so glad to hear that same point made here. Of course the actual solution is to let the driver turn it on or off. All of these "final" non-electrified cars are going to dominate trackdays for decades. We look at them as compromises today, but in 20 years we'll realize this was the pinnacle of the 4-cylinder turbo, hot hatch, etc.

[@Xetenor]

Please never ever believe you guys bore us with any information. It is that reason why we watch your guys technical videos that are so different than many others! Really appreciate all the work you guys put into each video. Please never change it!

[@samd7596]

Always love your videos. One of the few channels I’ll watch clear through. Keep it up!

[@ic3gr00v3]

Fantastic video and sums things up nicely! I am a lucky owner of a 2000 DC2R which I bought second hand as my first real car back in 2005. It has been with me from my bachelor days to now where I have two young kids under 7. I was doing drop off's and school runs in the DC2R but let's be honest - it's not the safest car by any standards! So this year, with the Wife's blessing, we picked up a CW FL5 (DC2R in garage now). It does it all... Grocery run, school run, sprints, luggage/box duties... But most of all it feels great to drive at any speed as mentioned in your video. Since owning, I find any excuse to drive it to feel the specialness it brings. ♥ It. Driving the FL5 then hopping into the DC2R... There are a lot of parallels and you can see the DNA in the FL5. It also makes the DC2R's lightness (and also safety gap) obvious!! I hope to keep both to pass on to my kids so they can enjoy this in years to come....

[@UndercoverXeno]

The AI bits get me every time 😂 they’re so good. Great video guys!

[@zone47]

Mark, you nailed it at the end. I could have purchased a new S2000 but didn't and always regretted it. I test drove a nice used S2000 before buying the FL5 Civic R and for some reason was underwhelmed. It's like a rock star who died in their prime ... they were the best ever! So yes it was a mechanical marvel but think the FL5 has a bit of that old school mechanical feel in just daily driving... somehow it's still there if you turn off all the safety stuff. Being a much more rounded package and finding one at MSRP made it a no brainer. Excellent review and commentary... the best I've seen on this car, thanks a lot!

[@kevinlindsey9537]

Outstanding video, you really explain that this isn’t just a civic that was slapped with a “R” badge and more horsepower. It’s a very special car that was thought out and engineered from the ground up.

[@chrisH-uv5wx]

Currently own a 2003 s2000 and am contemplating a move to the type r. I value your insight since you own both. Keep up the great work mark and jack. Been following since the days with Scott 🍻

[@hassyg4083]

fwd is crap

[@speeddemon311]

Get lost 😂​@@hassyg4083

[@johnshanklin6633]

Great garage analysis, but your focus on historical context and how it makes the driver feel are standouts. I’m sick of comparisons based on paper statistics which can be meaningless in the real world. It’s the character of the driving experience that matters. Thanks for catering honestly to car enthusiasts!! Hats off to both of you. 😊

[@InLane]

Great video Mark, love the detail and the passion. I bought an FL5 in January, and for various reasons I have not (yet) been able to drive it as much as I had planned. But I totally agree with your summary that it’s a car you can enjoy at any speed, for how it feels and what it stands for. Every time I get in, even just to go to the supermarket or pick my daughter from school, it’s still a special experience. For that reason, it’s a car I plan to keep hold off for a long time. I hope you do another update on the CTR in future. Your perspective on these cars resonates with me more than anyone else on here.

[@bg9994]

Excellent video, put in an order for one today after watching this. Thanks for the great content.

[@ChanoWilliams]

Thanks for this video and the real world perspective of weight and power. People have to factor in their specific needs, wants, location, price, knowledge, support, driver confidence, etc. There aren't a lot of truly bad "sporty" cars out right now, probably because there are so few. But what sporty cars there are, they all seem to have a specific attribute that caters to a specific type of person. I see people defending all of them in one way or another. At the end of the day, if you enjoy it, then that's all that matters. Having owned multiple Subies (GM9 2.5 RS, SG Forester XT, GD STI, GV WRX, ZC BRZ), I currently enjoy my GT Impreza for what it is and it's still fun to drive on twisty roads. I also enjoy taking my Crosstrek in backcountry territory. Use a vehicle for its intended purpose and don't wish it was something it wasn't meant to be. Make it into what you want or buy something that already is that thing you want. I think either way is going to cost you something, and that's just the state of things at this moment. Keep up the good work, brothers!

[@klasseact6663]

Thanks for voting my EN your COTY, looking forward to you driving the re-freshed version for 2024 where they've addressed some issues and if there's someone that will be able to tell, its YOU two👍👍

[@randallboone9375]

I grew up during the 90’s/ early 2000’s street racing era. I never got into Hondas because I ended up getting a 97 240sx in 2000. Loved that car and that’s the car that introduced me to 3 main things. Manual transmissions, rear wheel drive, and turbos. I never was a Honda hater, just never bought one mostly because of fwd and didn’t want to sell the 240 for it. Nowadays, at 42, I’m still a sports car enthusiast. I’m open minded to any brands and just love to drive for me, for fun. Videos like these make me want to broaden my horizons and maybe try out one of these, well see lol.

[@billcooper2798]

MARK please keep up the talking points they are very informational and make things make since. Great video with great insight. Thanks!

[@matthewmarshall5730]

I bought a civic sedan in the touring trim and it's an amazing car for my every day use (even with my two car seats). I was lucky to get it somewhat close to msrp. The civic type r just seems unattainable for most of us due to the markups, despite it being a great great car. If it was a serious choice for me between the type r and elantra N at this point in my life id go with the elantra N due to not being a huge pain to get and being cheaper

[@victormoreno2767]

True, honda went crazy with this car. Too expensive.

[@ChrisProuse]

The start of that in-car session was hilarious, lol. I love the wheels on this car - I get Porsche-like vibes from them. I tried to recreate the same vibe with a set of black Rotiform FLG's on my WRX... but I think the Honda designers nailed the styling on these wheels for the price.

[@rudyhaber5536]

Your summary of new cars compared to old and the experience change is spot on. That’s why I bought a Rush SR1 for the track because it delivers on the feel. I love my M340i for a daily driver but you can’t have it all in a modern street legal car.

[@MrBTarr]

Mark, you don't know how much I appreciate the time and effort you and Jack take to break down each car to a quantum level! Please keep going!

[@willjam465]

Another great video, Mark! Appreciate the discussion and perspective on this car, which I love. I am an old head who loved Honda/Acura from the late 80’s when I was in high school, through the early aughts having owned multiple of each brand over those years. I miss those cars dearly. And sadly you are right that they are never coming back. Seems Honda has done well with this current generation, but still a couple things missing in both the Civic and Integra will keep me from buying either.

[@drjk7565]

Honda used to make exciting performance cars (NSX, Prelude, S2000 etc) as well as innovative future-thinking cars like the Insight and Clarity. The media at the time even dubbed them "Japan's BMW", but after the financial crisis of 2008, it seems whatever soul they had left was gone. They even admitted to being so obsessed with beating Toyota that they forgot their identity as Honda. Ironically, Toyota now feels closer to the Honda of old thanks to the GR lineup. I dare say even Hyundai looks more like the Honda of old, with the N division pursuing innovation with the Ioniq range and an exciting petrol lineup with the Elantra/i30N, i20N (non-USA sadly) and Kona N.

[@faheemabbas3965]

What car will you buy then? Just curious.

[@willjam465]

@@faheemabbas3965 that’s the problem. With what I am willing to spend (up to $60k), I can’t make up my mind. Haven’t found the “one”. Right now, my daily is a 2018 Mazda 6 Signature, which I bought new and only has 47k miles. Love the car. Gives me everything I need, was very reasonable to buy, and has cost me hardly anything to maintain. I am spoiled. With interest rates and inflation, just not seeing what is the next clear purchase.

[@DreamWorkDrive]

Excellent video as usual. It's a shame that other capable hothatches never made it to the US, but it would be amazing to watch your review on a Megane RS 275 Trophy, SEAT Cupra 290, Golf GTi Clubsport S, etc.

[@mrtim5363]

1st time here & I loved every minute of it. I'm not looking for opinions, I'm looking for facts. & You delivered in spades. Best Type R video I have seen & I have seen quite a few. Clear direct & backed up with facts. What a refreshing change. Well Done! New Sub for this alone.

[@HonJazzz]

I drove one of these yesterday and I can’t stop thinking about it. It’s a truly special car.

[@tristankrieger8264]

Shit on it all you want, the new Wrx is basically a refugee camp for young enthusiast car buyers

[@senseicorey9979]

I was looking really really hard at one but couldn't pull the trigger on a 1st year remodel

[@ShaiyanHossain]

its ugly as shit and the motor is a big question mark for reliability also it doesn't drive as well as. the wrxes of past

[@kaisvlog7208]

Ya i daily the previous 2016 WRX

[@amwajameen]

Replace the ADS module in Type R with the module in Type S. you can overcome the damping problem.

[@MrAusAlex]

Absolutely love this! Great in-depth video like this is like a fine wine, something that people need to sit down and enjoy it properly so they can appreciate it.

[@NvSrAgE679]

What a great video. Loved every minute. Thanks Mark!

[@tuchlawson5244]

I put 8k miles on my FL5 before I sold it. I came from an FK8. I now own the GR Corolla (12k miles), Circuit like yours albeit Supersonic Red. I agree that the FL5 is a fantastic car in myriad ways. But, to me personally it lost something with how big it feels. My priority isn't track driving. I go twice a year: VIR, Barber, Road Atlanta. I autocross a ton. Most of all I love to drive backroads. To me the FL5 feels big compared to the FK8 the way the raptor eye STI feels to the older models. It's a subtle disparity in measurement, but in my opinion you relinquish the small car x-factor where you feel like you can find your line whilst staying in your lane on a backroad jaunt. I also think the FL5 loses to the FK8 in a few areas that are important to me. The FL5 shifter is better (though I still got second gear grinds occasionally). I honestly thought the steering feel was better in the FK8 (This sentiment was mirrored by Thomas on Throttle House). There was also the fact that the FK8 was faster in a straight line. That blew my mind. My work commute is 3/4's country roads, and then I hit a long sweeping onramp to the highway. The first time I pushed that onramp in my FL5 the car felt slower than my FK8. At the time I figured I'd gotten bad gas. Later my fears were confirmed by a few different reviewers. Why is the "everything better, significantly more expensive FL5" slower off the roll? I know I could have gotten a tune or modded it or whatever, but that makes no sense to me on a significantly more expensive car. It should have a similar tune to the Integra Type S. I also visit Tail of the Dragon quite often. I hawked down a Supra in the FL5 on that road. That was an amazing experience, but there were several times the tail whipped out and grazed the double yellows. To drive that car hard on the roads safely you can't turn off traction control completely--which means you're also eating through your rear pads at a ridiculous rate. I would regularly clear a set of rear pads on both my Type R's around 10k miles. Again, you can turn traction control off, but even with the front diff pulling you through, your rear will flail out and that's how you kill a biker on a road like the Dragon. You can put the GR in expert mode and the thing just feels dialed in no matter how hard you hurl it into a corner. I've never driven another car that feels so under control at the absolute limit. I think you guys criticized it for feeling "too safe", but I prefer that when I'm trying to stay between the lines on a backroad. I did camber bolts on the GR in the front to get -2.5 ish. Stock is -1.7. That ameliorated any turn in issues I had with the car. There are plenty of times I can take a corner hard and feel both diffs kick in as I get back on the power while also staying between the lines. I don't agree with your sentiments about the vehicle rotation, do you mean specifically under power? Especially in autocross I've gotten the Corolla to rotate a lot and that was just on the stock PS4's. Other reviewers like Everydaydriver and Straight Pipes also preferred the way the Corolla feels on the road. Even the way Car and Driver talks about the GR, including your recent guest in the big comparison vid echoed how he thinks the Corolla belongs on a wild back road in a Michigan winter. If tracking was my priority I'd prefer the FL5, but for everything else I'd take my FK8, or the Corolla. You said it yourself, that was the first time you drove the FL5 that hard on the road, and it wasn't even that hard. I enjoyed the FK8 and the GR more on back roads and at autocross. To each their own. I'm no youtube reviewer or mechanical guru. I'm a professional educator that works damn hard (teaching summer classes, tutoring, saturday school) to afford these low end sports cars. Just figured I'd offer my experience as not many people have owned or driven these cars extensively. You guys have both forgotten more about cars than I'll evern learn. You're my favorite youtube channel alongside throttlehouse. Thanks for all your content.

[@preludeh22a57]

Great comment! Just writing this to appreciate so you know someone read it

[@lawzy2992]

@@preludeh22a57thank you 😂

[@mengx94]

Noooo, ur supposed to enjoy the tail end happy fwd car. Not the stable awd of the grc!

[@grahmdoughty]

Honestly if the GR had even the usability of the Golf R I'd want it over the Type R. I don't mind that it's compromised in driving dynamics or interior materials - what I can't do is the compromise in interior space and packaging. But I realize that's not a big deal for a lot of people, and I'm hyped that they get to enjoy it.

[@kaisvlog7208]

I appreciate this As i have shortlisted these cars as well ; Fl5 or, gr corolla ( I would probably buy another 3L Supra mk5 alongside to complement the four door ) Maybe I'll jus go with CTR & Supra Since ive the cheaper 2016 WRX for daily than to get another AWD GR Corolla , it would be a redundant and the 2016 WRX is better interior than GRC I think the CTR interior & family space are really charming & deal maker on this one. A complete family sportcar. On the size , I think Supra just beat the GRC or CTR , different car for different purpose I guess So a better pair is a CTR , Supra & 2016 WRX

[@dasautogt]

Great, objective review. Thanks guys. 👍

[@njad3]

Subjective. He should’ve got a WRX

[@danielkiss7003]

​​@@njad3 That pile is straight out of the 2000s Honda eats it for breakfast

[@srkvhozite2424]

Amazing video. This channel has changed my entire perception of Honda and now they’re one of my favorite brands. Also huge thanks for all the details that go into these vids.

[@Christdeliverme]

Mark, for ya my dude. Thanks for the content. Ive not found content like this elsewhere. Being somone that appreciates the finite details; this satisfies.

[@totljag1]

I bought the 2017 Honda Civic Si cause of u ! 25 k back in 2017

[@andynickles7505]

I’ve got a manual first gen v6 Mazda6 that I cant sell for the life of me. It’s just so much more fun to drive than the newer cars like the civic Si. Shifter and clutch are very mechanical. Very little sound deadening which makes it a little noisy at highway speeds but you can hear the engine rev. And because it doesn’t have much low end torque you have to rev it out which is a blast. Hydraulic power steering. Double wishbone up front and multi-link rear. It is fwd and a little nose heavy but it’s a blast to drive around town at legal speeds.

[@juanbonilla9096]

That sounds fun. What year is it? DO NOT SELL IT.

[@njad3]

Then get a WRX

[@ericstepans3742]

I have a 2016 Mazda 3 (the car which brought me to Savagegeese because of their review) which will probably be pried from my cold dead fingers for exactly the reasons you cite. It's not that powerful (2.0L - 155 hp), it's kind of noisy on the highway (especially on coarse pavement texture), and it's running 205/60R16 tires, so mechanical grip is not face-bending. But it has a connectedness and cohesiveness that has disappeared from newer cars. It "sings" to me in a way other cars don't. As this review notes, that quality is rapidly disappearing from our automotive landscape as cars become bigger, heavier, and more technology-laden. We'll only be able to find it in niche vehicles (e.g. the ND2 Miata) going forward, and that's a shame.

[@andynickles7505]

@@juanbonilla9096 2004

[@bb5242]

ya, I had a chance to get a mazda 6 sport manual brand new for 19k a few years ago and didn't buy because I didn't need a car right then

[@koeskss]

Great video. Never felt like it was dragging, actually ended sooner than expeceted. Quality long video format will always be appriciated.

[@Vintaronica]

Wow quite possibly the best car review I have seen for several years. Thank you 🙏

[@ldsiverling]

Bought a '19 CTR w/ 30k miles back in April. Love it. Such an upgrade over the Si. Great DD. Babyseat in the back. Only complaint is you have to get used to the front bumper / lip height being a touch lower than a normal car and take approach angles accordingly because I hate scraping.

[@ShaiyanHossain]

my integra a spec scrapes leaving my driveway at stock height oops

[@ldsiverling]

@@ShaiyanHossain My own driveway as well if I don't take it at an angle. Drives me mental.

[@johnm5131]

Biggest issue today is, at $55K +, why not just get a second-hand Porsche? There are Boxsters and Caymans that have been babied and polished with spring water, that can be had for same or a few $$ more. And they are in a different league, to be honest.

[@Aki_Lesbrinco]

Well, because it would be a second-hand Porsche. God knows what hidden issues you will find and maintenance is a lot more expensive.

[@ParagMathurmd]

That's literally what I did. My 997 was $35k. It's more expensive to maintain, but overall it's hard to beat the value. The Type-R is probably faster however.

[@douglaskrueger357]

Yeah but ... good luck with the cost of ownership.

[@brandonchism6960]

Because most people looking at new Honda cars are ok with the maintenance of a new Honda. However, the maintenance of a 50-60k used Porsche sports car is eye-watering and in a totally different league compared to a new Civic/Integra.

[@ShaiyanHossain]

do any of them have rear seats?

[@jean-paulvaillancourt3140]

I liked and Subscribed after this video... Thank you for sharing so much information in what is actual a short video for the amount of information. Awesome job!

[@JoeU2Bee]

Best Type R Review! Detailed review like nowhere else and always Loved! Thanks for sharing and keep up the great work! 😉👍

[@tylerbetthauser7647]

You need to really love this car to make it worth the purchase. There are so many purchases in the used market for the same price that deliver much more value.

[@senseicorey9979]

I have a 20 year old wrx that paces with these things pretty well

[@483SGT]

@@senseicorey9979if you're looking at performance only, this is indeed a horrible choice. I bought mine because it's also an incredible daily that I don't have to worry about. I have enough cars that I have to fix shit on lol

[@douglaskrueger357]

like what?

[@mengx94]

ZL1, srt, scatpack, gt500, etc etc 😂

[@juiceton1029]

Great video Mark! I love the Type R. I wasn’t able to find anything without a high markup and ended up with an Elantra N, which I also adore. Coming from a B9 A4 it’s been so fun… but I still have my eye on Type Rs.

[@mharro88]

The N is way more fun to drive and more livable

[@bigdreams5554]

I have been drooling over the Elantra N... Just wanted a manual transmission car, seems like I need to get a sports car to get one these days.

[@CTF33]

​@mharro88 So true, I don't know how they did it but with the N they nailed the driving dynamics at an affordable price no less.

[@Kurtiscott]

Really appreciated your final thoughts. Your non-hysterical explanations for the current generation of cars spot-on.

[@ins_hane]

Been waiting a long time for this video, can't wait to see what you do next with the car. Keep up the great work

[@horatiotimewaster5755]

Fantastic video, Mark. It could have been longer. I can see why the Type R is actually worth $45k or so. My only problem with this car is availability. Even the Si is hard to find in my area.

[@teddypiketl]

I love my FL5. While it has fwd limitations and its a bit slower then few other cars i have. It alot of fun to drive and out the box handles great. Only drawback is dealership experience outside of that its alot of car for the sticker price. Its alot better with few mods as well :)

[@Hisamuran]

Thank you for this amazing in-depth video, civic type-R has been my favourite Japanese car for many many years. Really enjoyed this video 👍🏼

[@nitrostackr]

Thankful to have owned mine for a month now, such an incredible car! Really appreciate all of the effort you put into this one!

[@obocecha]

The real craziness is the ridiculous markup

[@singular9]

Honda Civic 30k - Honda mark up 45k - dealer mark up 70k

[@douglaskrueger357]

Why?

[@Carlos.Rivera]

​@@douglaskrueger357less production, high demand, ⬆️ price

[@s.patterson5698]

​@@douglaskrueger357Why would anyone spend $70 grand for this? I don't get it.

[@njad3]

Because of idiots car buyers willing to pay that price

[@asphaltflyer]

Just a simple "thank you" Watching on a Saturday morning with a cup of coffee. Perfect 👌

[@VQSeries]

Excellent review! Thank you for the hard work on this quality content!

[@jonathanjustman6628]

Looks so good in red. Every time I watch this I start thinking of getting one. Then I forget about it a few days later.

[@gaivoron]

$45k fwd before mark up.. but seriously $55-$60k is insane for an awesome driving experience. There are just too many options at that price.

[@douglaskrueger357]

What other options are as special at that price point? Please share.

[@I_know_what_im_talking_about]

😂 who cares about options? You either like the car and want it, or you don’t. Going around comparing cars is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You can ALWAYS find a better deal for cheaper. You can ALWAYS buy an older sports car that is FASTER for cheaper. You can ALWAYS go buy an old top of the line Merc for $5,000 that has more features and luxury then a 2040 Civic EVER COULD DREAM OFF. And….? Who cares?!?!?! Who freakin cares. I buy cars that I LIKE. Price doesn’t matter. Competition from other brands DON’T MATTER. You won’t see me in a Kia or some German nightmare to repair even if it was being gifted to me for free. 😤

[@Argedis]

@@douglaskrueger357 If I were spending my hard earned money I would get a Lexus IS 350 right at $46k new

[@douglaskrueger357]

Well said and love your angry tone.@@I_know_what_im_talking_about

[@gaivoron]

@@I_know_what_im_talking_about that's dumb.

[@DM72513]

30:30 It's not the same price as the GR Corolla. A 23 GR Corolla with the PP is $7-8k less expensive. You bought a Circuit Edition which is mechanically identical to the $38k Core with PP.

[@TigerClaw03]

I’m not sure why a lot of automotive channels missed this nuance. You would think that it would’ve been brought up as a lot of “enthusiast” channels always bring up “best bang for your buck” (or similar expression). Particularly for the GR Corolla, the core is the trim that a majority of people will buy and the trim Toyota will make the most of. Car channels made a similar error when reviewing the S209 STI. They gave the impression all STIs were $60k+ but really failed to point out that the S209 was an extremely limited model that was the pinnacle STI with a factory warranty. At the time, a regular STI was about $36k.

[@pan4632]

they take every opportunity they have to shit on the GRC. We know it is an inferior car to the CTR; but it is cheaper, awd, and it's Toyota's first attempt at making a fun car out of an economy platform in the modern era.

[@TigerClaw03]

I agree, but it's the reality of the situation. In my opinion, I value the GRC more so than the Supra or 86 because the GRC was an in-house Toyota development. Performance-wise, I think they're pretty even. I think where the GRC loses is the creature-comforts, with most complaints at the hard interior plastics and the "overheating" of the rear clutch pack. I think we'll be stuck with hard plastic interior, but I'd imagine the "overheating" rear clutch pack would be addressed in future models if the GRC becomes a main-stay in Toyota's lineup. The problem with a first-gen product. Coincidentally, when the FK8 was released, there was overheating issues due high coolant and oil temps and the car essentially going into limp mode on track days.

[@smeegain3657]

Mark drives my realistic dream car. And he deserves it. Thank you for the premium content over all these years.

[@scottjohnson4885]

Real review from a real owner of the car. Your detail information of mechanical engineering is almost as good as your dialogue regarding the role of this car and others in the market.