Coaching Clash: How World's Top 2 Coaches Differ

[@bettyhughes2084]

The Cowen swing is next level up from Foley. It incorporates everything in the Foley swing, as it must. Foley is a primer on mechanics, Cowen is art.

[@bertpainter8385]

This just confirms what I've been realizing for the average amateur golfer. Learning how to get that pro-like swing and trying to figure out which golf coach to hook up with (especially online) is the 1st problem with finding the correct path for yourself to reaching that goal. It really does suck. Even when you have coaches who believe in the same methods, finding a coach who can clearly identify your problems and directing you to correct them can be a very tough task. One coach will tell you one thing and the other coach will say another. It gets worse 10 fold, if you don't use a coach and try to self teach yourself by watching YT video.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

It does seem like a minefield doesn't it. If you brings you any reassurance, I spend 95% of my time coaching people to do very simple fundamental things that are universal, regardless of coaching philosophy. I would be wary of a coach who has a clearly defined method that he/she applies to everyone.

[@Pgeezy883]

With cowen’s swing, you’ll pull the ball if you don’t achieve your wrist angles and shaft lean at impact (hard to do so I was constantly pulling it. Watch Danny Maude’s lesson, he pulls almost all his shots). I found that I was able to hit it much more on line with foleys “reach” feel in the backswing. Plus, the “exiting left” feel that cowen discusses and is taught these days just doesn’t click with me. Foley’s follow through is much simpler. Just my experience working on both swing feels for some time.

[@Costigs01]

Love the explanation of both coaches theories. I've been researching a lot about both recently and I've used the Cowen arm spin for a while. Played my best golf with it, amazing compression and easy of swing. Looking at trying the Foley ideas at the range this week and see what I prefer but I love the Cowen model. Just very difficult to understand what he's trying to portray sometimes 😅

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I totally agree! Clearly a fantastic technical model but for a coach, he is not great at explaining it in simple terms. There is an old communication model that I try and stick to; 'the archer never blames the target'. So if my student isn't getting it, the honus is on me to do a better job communicating my point. Not just repeat it louder and more forcefully as my coach used to do with me.

[@jamesgentry3623]

I couldn't agree more with the Cowen method for compression and ease of swing. I've been playing golf 15+ years, and my natural swing is more closer to the Cowen method. I got off on a tangent with the Stack & Tilt early on that screwed me up a couple of years. Mostly relied on hand/eye coordination until I ran across Danny Maude / Cowen video. Not sure I completely understand loading the shoulders for a fade or a draw, but by George I am hitting the most beautiful compressed high draws for approach shots with 9i, PW, and 48deg than I have ever hit in my life. I used to always hit a little fade into greens which was easier, but now the opposite. I still can hit the fade easily enough when the shot calls for it.

[@anthonyviola9400]

I like both coaches, our fellow Canadian has extremely done well as you shared! I believe for me a 67 year old I find Cowen’s approach easier to follow as I can’t rotate my body like these young guys/ladies

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

That’s a good shout. Probably easier to go with the Cowen route if rotating isn’t your thing.

[@Gumballa87]

That C. Champ Drive gave me goosebumps. The elegance alone puts me square into Team Foley

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I agree. He moves like water. I could watch that all day I wonder how much of that was Champ before he met Foley though

[@Weltbummler23]

Great comparison, thanks for putting that together. I think in many ways the two approaches reinforce each other, except possibly the follow-thru. Im more on the linear follow philosophy, foley side, but that might change as I improve my swing.

[@temporarystranger95]

I think Foley’s method is easier to understand and makes more sense. I just don’t get Cowen’s “right arm spinning down” and applying downward pressure concept. Much prefer Foley’s “passing the sandbag” analogy. Interesting that Rory did not stay with Cowen too long. Thanks for the video.

[@PaoloStracciato]

Rory 's personality clashes with Cowen's

[@Weltbummler23]

The downward spinning arm is just a more descriptive way of saying to simply straighten the right arm. But he wants you to straighten it in a specific way by keeping the elbow more or less locked tight to the ribs and rotating the forearm down until the arm is straight. This is more intuitively understood/done when you practice swinging the club with your trailing arm only, then u get a much better sense for it. Once both hands are on the club it feels more like pushing the trailing arm straight, to me at least.

[@auldmart]

As an older player I prefer the Cowan swing but have struggled to get it working with my driver.

[@klausklaus9112]

as a fellow older player i found success with gary edwin's method ...

[@mwsports]

Clever take on this. You can get in a muddle mixing ideas between coaches. I know all too well 😂

[@Keebo70]

For short game (pitch and approach shots) I would take Cowen method, but full shots with mid to long irons and driver I like Foley's method.

[@pauloverett8652]

best comments on this video. pure fun to read! Great video thank you!

[@henryyang3695]

Thank you for your video; I now understand where my problem lies. I've been merging concepts from two different people. When I have a slight fade, I think about releasing the clubhead, and when I feel unstable, I think about maintaining the wrist angle. However, because my forearms are not fully extended (as Pete mentioned), I end up topping the ball when I don't release properly. Then, I try to shift more weight to my left foot, hoping to hit the turf behind the ball... In short, it's a mess. But now things are a bit clearer. Thank you very much.

[@TonyCallaway]

I like Foley’s on Cameron Champ final product better than Cowen’s on Svenson. I love effortless swing looking.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Me too. Not to say that it is a better model but what a move. Champ moves like water. If I swung like that I wouldn't care what I scored, I would just play all day every day.

[@grahamjones7371]

Oh no! never knew i had a self taught mixture of both! Foley chest stretch Cowen arms shoulder load, mixture downswing, foley finish But striking it the best ever!

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

If it’s working, keep doing it. Unless you have studiously followed a particular pathway. I think most of us would be a mix of a, number of swing models.

[@grahamjones7371]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel Tnx i thought id discovered the secret of the chest engine! describing it as rocking a heavy baby! Obv my playing partners ignored it so i wont tell them its Foleys main move! Prob as i have a neutral (ok maybe weak!) grip Cowens right arm move helps me deloft/square the club but i think i have the Foley fling with my left! like you say if it works,my swing feels so solid but dynamic at moment Thanks for all great videos

[@Graham-bg3ij]

I worked with PC and his philosophy is - keep it simple - keep it minimal- PC is also very good on chipping where he advocates using natural forces ( gravity ) and that one piece of advice and how to counter act the force of gravity on the club with the use of your body - has made a huge difference to my chipping and pitching after years of frustration- But foley has good points too - he focuses a lot on the numbers !! Trackman etc - Don’t buy too much into any of this - they are working with world class golfers who are already highly trained no matter what ideology you give them - don’t forget that !!

[@AceEthos]

Great idea as a video.. Good thinking good sir!! I along with any golfer who is obsessed with the swing should find this video fascinating.. Pete Cowen is also known for speaking somewhat in circles and sounding completely random with all kinds of nonsensical rhetoric because it is an entirely different skill to be able to relay and articulate thoughts with conciseness and clarity..

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thanks for that. 🙏

[@mikemoodie]

Louis Oosthuizen is in the Cowan camp. You can literally see his right arm working down to impact, with the shaft quite steep.

[@rzaretzk]

Excellent Dissertation, Dr.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Oh no 😟 was it a bit academic?

[@rzaretzk]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel No, very well done. (not everything is sarcasm)

[@pbode1]

Nice comparison. I like the sequencing thought of Foley, but not that clubhead rotation. I am naturally a very wristy golfer with a shallow plane, and to get the club square at impact from being you is very timing dependent. I like to keep the clubhead just a little parallel or in front of me these days. It helps me to turn my overdraws into fades.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Good stuff.Thanks for that. It is all about context in terms of where you are coming from. Sounds like you have found a good direction.

[@RohitRaghavendraGuruBakshi]

Pressure on the ball that you can create anyway by far outweighs speed anyway in the week , as pressure on the ball will give u more of face control and better strike. Which will result in more accuracy and more repeatability and better scores.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Agreed. I think Foley would also prioritise pressure on the ball though.

[@tfostercrx]

Once you’ve worked on Cowens principles and drills for a few months it all starts to click, so consistent and simple, he’s one on the best short game coaches too, unbelievable bunker coach. Great vid mate

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thanks for that. I imagine that most of us don’t give it enough time.

[@eivindhaugen1160]

Do you have a link to where Foley explains that he want the Club to be behind the hands at parallell? And how is it possible to hit a fade when rotation close the clubface and its coming from the inside? Week grip and go for push fades?

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Yes, I guess aim left and hold the face for push fades

[@RCGolf]

I have done both models at different times and what I will say is the Foley model produces more speed but it does come at the detriment to ball striking. In order to sling the club and square it up you need very little pressure in the hands, wrists and arms but that at the same time sort of numbs the ability to sense where the face is pointing. The Foley model is hard to control under pressure because if you don't rotate well on a shot the ball is going left. The best ball strikers have incredible hands and that is the Cowen model.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

[@brendaporter457]

Wonderful analyses! With regard to Stenson, unlike most conventional thinking, he almost has a “death” grip on the golf club.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Ahh, that makes sense. I heard Foley promoting this actually while I was doing the research for this video. Apparently not at all like holding a small bird/tube of toothpaste etc after all.

[@lukeokoth]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel i could be wrong but i think his coach advocates for an equal and opposite grip pressure from the hands regardless of the intensity, sort of like wringing a wet towel....

[@jayingram3326]

Forget teachers. Look at Ben Hogan and Moe Norman. I teach both of these swings and as a pro used them both successfully with a modicum of talent. I can still play and I'm 80.

[@bertpainter8385]

I'm finding this out. A number of ways to find a swing that looks right and works for each of us.

[@ks338]

In my mind the they both similar on the bottom hand being in the correct place ie. extension to apply pressure to the shaft .

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Yes, I do actually mention the similarities in the next video: that definitely being one of them.

[@valsopuseight]

Excellent video, maybe a whole series of like-minded coach comparisons?

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thanks for that. I was thinking along the same lines. Any suggestions? Maybe Leadbetter, Stack & Tilt, MORAD? I think there is a good story to be told with short game coaches too.

[@richards5910]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel I'd love to see a short game comparison, there are so many different approaches.

[@steveperry1344]

i enjoyed the video and i kinda actually can and do both of these type actions and i learned them from youtube and have had good luck with both. the way it works with me is one style is good for a while and when it stops working i think about the other style but they don't mix well. i don't change from swing to swing but more one day this is working and then it's not and let's try this now. i've been around a 12 for many many years and not sticking with one thing is my problem but i enjoy the torture like most of us. golf is fun right???

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I feel your pain. I was working out which to go with on the range today 10-mins before tee off 😳

[@steveperry1344]

i think more right side winding up and driving down and out with the cowen style and more left side turning back and pulling down and thru with the other. they both work for me but i sometimes have to figure out what feels right. good gofin' to ya.@@GolfCoachDrNoel

[@bogee4u]

i thought Foley (was) and is a big believer in the metrics provided by "trackman" and am surmising his swing model is the best for achieving optimal trackman numbers that in his mind, will produce superior ball striking for the golfers he instructs

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

That certainly seemed to be the case 10 years ago but I think that now launch monitors have been around for a while he would be less driven by the numbers. It is a fantastic tool but not the whole story. Club delivery is always king but I know many players that display a great set of numbers but have to make some funky adaptations in order to do so. I would imagine that Foley would be taking into account a large range of factors; skill level, mobility, appetite for change, dominant patterns etc

[@seoyeonlim1920]

I love this video

[@jamesharris184]

Bang on!

[@MaitreJedi19]

Not an expert but Cowan focus on face stability and Foley on club speed through centrifugal force. Champ is 1st on driving but 178 on approach to the green and Stenson has been a premium ball striker for decades.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Great synopsis.. Also, I’m pretty sure Champ was a bomber before he met Foley too. I wonder if he had’ve met Cowen would Champ have fulfilled his potential…or maybe he would’ve been ruined.

[@sumitagg1]

There’s always a massive selection/success bias when evaluating any golf coach. Most probably don’t help a lot more than they do and there is a bias on the successful players they coach. It’s ultimately about each coach trying to give different feels for the swing.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Definitely 👍

[@thilog5874]

like the Shawn Clement method. produces fast club head speeds but I do not get the same amount of control as with the Cowen method.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I need to take a look. Would you recommend any particular video?

[@grahamjones7371]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel Hes just put a few out after a long break,(to me he looks like a left hander playing right) years ago he was one of the very few that recommended golf related coordination/skill drills which only 1 person at my club has taken on board yet they are one of the major reasons i got good at golf quickly at an old age! Every good golfer that ever lived can bounce a ball on a wedge,hardly any hackers can! but they cant see the connection

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I love the idea of coordination drills. That is the big challenge with golf after all. Ok, you've convinced me, I'll spend some time and look into his methods.

[@grahamjones7371]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel One that i called the machine gun drill he calls elephant swinging his trunk! basically a line of golf balls where you start with continuous feet together swing then shuffle forwards hitting the balls If i was a coach i would have all beginners/hackers doing feet together continuous 1/2 swings clipping the range peg 10 times then do it with eyes shut! then with wider stance then with shorter peg etc warning only 1 person at my club has followed some of my skill drills but hes got his hcp down and going lower it must be hard being a coach as the easiest way to take 5 shots a round of a poor player is a putting lesson but i bet nobody does! well that and underclubbing

[@nicksheehan179]

Excellent video, sounds like Sean is more of a stack n tilt coach???

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I don’t see that connection. He hates an extended (stacked) spine in the backswing which is kinda the defining feature of stack and tilt. Maybe in other ways though.

[@truthfulpatriot9129]

Sean in Canadian ……he’s never wrong😏……..I worked with Sean at John Jacob’s School of Golf……he’s quite a character …..Most people Wouldn’t care for Sean…..

[@renscience]

Foley = woods/longer irons, Cowen = medium to short irons, chipping

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Interesting perspective

[@ingeniousbraveheart]

Brilliant you have them down to a TEE 🤣Now I am bloody well more confused Dr Noel thank you 😂

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Sorry, I appreciate that this series doesn't leave an easy path to follow.

[@garethjones2927]

Pete has been working/ consulting with biomechanics expert Ryan Lumsden for over 20 years. And has integrated physiology and Sport Science in his coaching for many years, had a close working relationship with the late Ramsay McMaster for many years..

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thanks Gareth. I was aware about Ramsey McMaster but not Ryan Lumsden. Foley does seem to make a bigger deal of these things.

[@garethjones2927]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel He does sell well 👍

[@Darkfalla]

I dont like either one lol. I been looking at mimicking and using the methods of Jack Nicholas, Ben Hogan, Lee Trevino, Young Tiger Woods and Bobby Jones. Turning in the back swing with the shoulders: relaxed arms and Hands. But, controlling the wrists in the swing, using speed through the back swing to set up the club and allowing the weight of the club to set itself in the back swing. Then using the throw method by using both the lateral weight shift and using the chest to speed up the club. Which in-turn makes the relaxed arms to follow behind. which creates lag in the swing and following the weight shift with your chest and coming through the ball with the motion and making sweet contact. I prefer that natural swing method and having less swing thoughts and being less technical or biomechanical about the swing. Rotary Swing method is about learning from the greats of the past. all of today's teaching methods are all set-up to help recreate what the old greats did. Because they found the true golf swing in the upbringing of the sport.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Those are certainly sound fundamentals that are going to help most golfers. Sounds like you really like Chuck’s whole approach.

[@samanthagames1023]

I never know what Pete Cowan's talking about and whenever I see a video of him coaching a KZbin golfer they look as if they don't understand (but daren't admit it) because they're in awe of his reputation and don't want to look foolish.

[@mikemoodie]

I think Danny Maude was perplexed when he took a lesson from Cowan.

[@FreakyGolf88]

Have practice and figure out😅side

[@klausklaus9112]

... like a wise man once said ... different horses for different courses ...

[@brucefrancis2301]

Cowan doesn’t talk about holding off. He sets the shoulder and releases depending on the shot you want to make.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Ok, then I’m confused. Can ‘hold the pressure on’ and release co-exist?

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

As for ‘setting the shoulders’ presumably that’s about where the arms are in relation to the shoulders? This all new golf swing terminology for me. Loading the shoulders in other sports is about where the shoulders sit on the frame; up- down, forward- back. The optimal depending on the direction of force.

[@mikemoodie]

At least with Pete, you can finally give up on all the shallowing nonsense. I'm going with Pete. I think with Pete, it helps to stand tall at impact, like Louis Oosthuizen.

[@talltimball]

Do you think the fact that Stenson is naturally left handed lends itself to Pete Cowans methodology to stabilise the clubface?

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I didn't know that. Thanks. I think this is Cowen's hard earned swing concept that he would use with every player where applicable. To your point though, it is really dominated by the right side.

[@grahamjones7371]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel Golf has turned me almost ambidextrous! i can play T Tennis left handed now! would have whiffed every time pre golf!

[@matshansson233]

What swing style do you recommend to older and average players?

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

The answer that is always; depends on where you are coming from. i.e what is your current pattern and tenancies when things go wrong. Sorry that isn't the straight forward answer you may have wanted but that is the role of a good coach; to add the right ingredients to help the player move away from the patterns that hurt them.

[@Jackybug]

Check out Andrew Emery.

[@bobbys4327]

I like the John Daly approach.........grip it and rip it!

[@Frank-pi2gz]

SNEAD,HOGAN, ARNIE, NICKLAUS, PLAYER, TREVINO, NONE OF THESE GUYS WOULD HAVE WON AS MUCH IF THEY HAD LISTENED TO EITHER OF THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS. 😮

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I am pretty sure that both coaches would have kept all those players doing what they do best and keep an eye on destructive habits. You can't be that experienced with tour players and not be able to adapt and work around the player. But, I hear your point and there is definite risk of de-skilling elite level players if you are too stuck in your own model.

[@thegreenkeeper2537]

What these guys did with the inside of their bodies is impossible to see. How much do they brace their torso ?

[@dbo4506]

@@GolfCoachDrNoel I’m not so sure. Time and time again you see players that win all the time go to absolute garbage. They are over coached and it’s detrimental not beneficial.

[@Ron-hj1or]

As Moe Norman would say….just hit the ball straight

[@lucaspqd-u2m]

SIC

[@rickmiller8893]

One says "you struddle." The other says "you struggle eh?"

[@firstkart]

if you look at both styles they are actually saying the same thing.

[@kalindatchev994]

A bit tongue in cheek and, to be noted, coming from a complete hacker but here's my 2 cents: Just by looking at the two, Cowen looks like a pro coach. Foley looks like a Golf Digest intern who got lost on the premises while trying to deliver a semi-important folder to his boss. With Foley you always get the feeling he doesn't understand half of what he's saying. With Cowen, you know he's telling you less than half of what he knows because he knows you're too dumb to get the whole thing. And finally, Champ may have a much better swing than Stenson (he doesn't). But Stenson is a much better player. I'd rather have the swing that won the Open with a final round 63 over a scintillating Phil Mickelson.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Very good 👍 That was a mind blowing final round. Give my Champ’s move any day.

[@cjlawrence6867]

Pete Cowan has for decades worked with experts in Biomecanics he gives them credit in several video's, the latest one with James Robinson here on youtube

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Thanks for that. I’d love to see that if you have a link? Maybe he just doesn’t mention it as much

[@thomasleeks4406]

Peter Cowen has coached 8 different major winners.Enough said.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

​​⁠And probably more. It wasn’t a question of which coach is best. Just an objective look at their methods. I do wonder though, how many players both coaches have worked with that they have not been able to help.

[@cjlawrence6867]

Dr.Noel I really like your videos, I've been an instructor for decades now and still review all the current trends in teaching, one can never stop learning. Pete is a master teacher for sure..... have a look at this interview with him @ minute 38:40 he gets into his bio mec work. Keep up the good work it helps me for sure kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqqQg39jl7tkZ9E

[@theunfinishedarticle]

I’m not a fan of Sean Foley at all. He uses so many unnecessary buzz words, and look at what he did to the swings of Woods & Rosey. Gimme Harmon, Leadbetter & Cowen any day I thought Lead’s lesson with Garret from Good Good was a masterclass in simplicity and effectiveness - no snake oil, just a great understanding of golf-swing mechanics - based on decades of real-world experience with some of the best in the game.

[@mogley71]

Dana dahlquist

[@williammacdonald9271]

Butch Harmon has had some success as well. foley is too complicated

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Ahh yes!. Probably more than both of these guys. I need to cover him next. Tougher to find a model in his teachings

[@justthrowitgolf]

maybe that's a good thing @@GolfCoachDrNoel

[@pjpredhomme7699]

No earthly idea where this fella came up with the idea that Sean Foley is someone important in golf instruction. That is completely off the wall.

[@Michaelmontana08]

Zero comparison. Cowen is a cut above and has proven this. Not a fair fight.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Very interesting! A lot of people have said that. The video was more about the way they see the swing rather than who is the better coach.

[@stevenjenkins3882]

Cameron Champ needs to build his own driver. Stay away from the tour truck.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

Hi Steven. Do you have inside knowledge of this? I'd love to know more.

[@stevenjenkins3882]

@GolfCoachDrNoel his driver is to whippey. He basically needs an 1 iron 12 degrees and a 2 iron 16 degrees with the stiffest shafts possible. Only one wood in the bag driver 5 degrees with a 120 gram shaft thicker tip.

[@bigjmal]

I honesty find Cowan to be just full of word salad. I can’t bear the guy….overated. Let gravity and physics do the work.

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

I know what you mean about 'word salad'. I don't think communication is his best attribute but I wouldn't let personal likes get in the way of 50 years of tour experience and wisdom. I have really warmed to him as I have watched more of his videos. His thing seems to be that he is not trying to convince the viewer of anything or sell any ideas. "Here's my stuff, take it or leave it." I guess you can do that when you are the best in the world. On that note, I used to have a strong dislike for the way Foley presents but now I love watching him talk. I must be getting older.

[@geoffw8565]

Neither of them as clued up on the golf swing as Mac O Grady !

[@GolfCoachDrNoel]

If you want to swing like Mac O’Grady. Very prescriptive

[@GeoffreyWicks-w9s]

​@@GolfCoachDrNoel Do you have a problem with his thoughts on the golf swing ?

[@kurtheitman552]

Sean Phoney is not on the same level as Pete Cowan.

[@lapdog4135]

Not even close! Pete Cowen is a master golf teacher, Sean Foley couldn't hold his jock strap. Just say'n!

[@Sevemac]

Cowan is largely unintelligible with his coaching eg spin the arm down 🤷‍♂️ He may be a superb coach but I have great difficulty understanding him and making sense of his philosophy. However I respect your opinion and I can only go with how I understand things.

[@lapdog4135]

@@Sevemache’s largely unintelligible? How can you even say such a thing to one of the best tour coaches out there? He’s a tour coach for a reason. Just because you can’t understand his teaching doesn’t make him “largely unintelligible”

[@television3771]

Foley ( Captain Buzz Word) is a clown for sure, I have no experience with Cowen.

[@MrBarrynicholas]

Foley is up to date and knowledgable. Cowan is smug, annoying and dated.

[@merkeva1841]

Sean is a joke every player he coaches gets injured

[@kevinkeding8937]

they both teach a weak, confusing swing.