The Politics of Count Dooku

[@heavyarms55]

Characters aren't static though. I think it's entirely possible that Dooku was every bit that idealist at one point. I've always seen the theme of the Dark side as being: It turns you into what your hate most or it causes the very thing you sought it's power to prevent. Anakin hated slavery and wanted to save his wife and became a slaver who caused his wife's death. Revan sought to stop the conquerors and became one himself. Jacen wanted to stop the Dark Man from taking his daughter and became it. Luke wanted to understand his father and almost walked the same path. Kyp Durron wanted to save his family and killed his last living relative. Palpatine wanted immortality and died for it. Dooku wanted to fix what he saw as the corruption and failures of the galaxy and he became the very instrument of that corruption and failure. That's what the Dark Side does - as I've always seen it. My headcanon anyway is that Dooku did hold his ideals, and once he resorted to using the Dark Side to attain them, it warped him into the very thing he most hated.

[@cimcity1863]

Indeed, one of the biggest reasons why Vader still stands out to this day is that he finally realized that even he wasn't beyond redemption. Dooku, like many other Sith, were intended to be the typical dark side users who started with good intentions, but rather than see the pain and suffering they were causing chose to double down. Thinking that more power was simply the answer.

[@kaynawests262]

Dooku’s characterization is incredibly inconsistent and, depending on the author or work, Dooku is either a wholly evil person or a misguided antihero. Dooku’s true characterization is somewhere in the middle. Some of Dooku’s traits, like his racism in the ROTS novelization, just seem randomly attributed and inconsistent when you consider that Dooku had a romantic interest in an alien in some weird clone wars comic and was essentially raised though his adolescences by Yoda and Yaddel.

[@Kolonol1]

Yeah a lot of Dooku doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also....it says in the movie that Yoda was his old master...that implies explicitly that Yoda trained Dooku...not other jedi

[@percivalknightoftheflames855]

I think that's likely because of how much he used the dark side.

[@kingorange7739]

@@percivalknightoftheflames855that can be used as some reconloation. However I do find it absurd for Dooku to make such a 180. Like the dark side may distort ideals, but I find it a little far fetched to suggest it capable of making someone go completely 180. Especially for someone to be self aware of it.

[@RevanX77]

Exactly this. It goes right back to a divide between Christopher Lee and George Lucas on what the character was. Lucas just wanted a moustache twirling Dracula to be an intermediate bad guy, but Lee injected refinements and subtlety into his performance that displayed a different character. Famously this came to a head in the filming of RotS where Lucas wrote that Dooku would pathetically beg for his life when at Anakin's mercy, and Lee just refused to do it because he didn't believe the character would stoop to such a thing. This is why the Dooku we see in TCW and throughout various other media often comes off completely different depending on the writer. In essence, for Dooku there is no true version of what he is.

[@Kolonol1]

@RevanX77 TCW isn't cannon though so it doesn't matter....don't care what Disney says XD

[@Ikcatcher]

The only true Dooku fact is that he has a signature look of superiority

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

Dooku was effectively Saruman in space, while starting as an idealist, his pride in himself, impatience with his peers, frustration with the restraints on the system, and his envy of Yoda and the Sith's power led to his fall. By the time we see him in AotC and RotS, he's not even really Dooku anymore, but Tyranus in truth.

[@NatHazel]

And very much like Saruman, Dooku died a broken man. No redemption, no forgiveness from his master of all people, Yoda also probably was devastated when he felt Dooku die. Though it’s debatable and technically arguable he got a Jedi funeral, since the half of the ship that his body had remained in burnt up the atmosphere. But he did not become one with the force in the end. Like Saruman when he took over the Shire and killed by Grima. His spirit desired to return to Valinor, to find peace. Only for a strong gust of wind to blow his spirit towards the east, forever shunning him from returning.

[@rizzoforgo865]

I'd say he's more like Albert Speer in space. Much like Speer who pretended to be "the good Nazi who said sorry" (despite being on board with literally everything Hitler did), Dooku's entire game plan is to be "the good Seppie" despite being the one that gave orders to General Grievous and the Droid Army to do war crimes.

[@MeatbagSlayer]

So you know the Fanon vs. Canon meme and both versions are completely different? That's Count Dooku incarnate.

[@KRobinson-ko1ne]

Him and Quigon Ginn Everyone likes to label him a grey Jedi which is impossible not to mention some pansexual icon, joking him up with Schmi. The truth is Quigons ways in terms of human behavior are actually MORE strict than yodas: while yoda aims to maintain the republic and it’s democratic system while at the same time prevent full scale war entirely Quigon answers directly to the midichloirans and thus the official will of the force

[@jl453k2]

@@KRobinson-ko1ne Qui-Gon is only a Grey Jedi if you consider the Jedi Council to be the arbiters of what the light side is.

[@JapanCloneTrooper]

Going off Canon, Dooku definitely started out as a good Jedi who flirted with the Dark Side at times. Even when he left the Jedi Order, he was no Sith. However as the count grew more disillusioned with the Republic and the Jedi Order, he turned towards the Dark Side and Palpatine. You could say he lost his faith in democracy and thought a monarchy like what he had on Serenno was better. Granted by the Phantom Menace and even in the years after the movie, he still has some reluctance with killing Jedi along with some other things he has to do, but by the start of the Clone Wars I would say his transformation is nearly complete. You can’t possibly say Dooku is a good man who’s just misguided due to the things he does during the war. He had become a true believer in the Sith except in one way. I don’t think Dooku ever truly thought of betraying Palpatine until he was forced to betray Ventress. Even after he tries some plots against Palpatine, Dooku’s main priority is carrying out the Grand Plan. By the time Dooku died, he believed an empire was better for the galaxy than a republic. He believed rulers must be cruel towards anyone who doesn’t fall in line. Dooku died a Sith.

[@warlordofbritannia]

I like the idea of Dooku the corrupted and/or disillusioned idealist, especially against him being pure evil. We already get that in Palpatine; I think the former portrayal better presents how seemingly good and moral people can turn to the dark side, when they take the failings of the system so close to heart. The caveat, of course, is that those good moral people always had a personal dark side, a tendency to extreme and radical views (kinda like his successor as Palpy’s apprentice, hmmmm….). Dooku imposing his personal views is evil, but you understand why and where it comes from. He’s got that “mission to civilize” thing going for himself. Unfortunately, comically evil human nationalist Dooku has been closer to the typical interpretation.

[@Крэйден_х]

Honestly, I never liked how they made him after Episode II. Instead of being a villain with his own truth and his own motives, he's just a mini-version of Palpatine, loyal to the master, but completely evil and corrupt at heart. A traitor, a hypocrite, a racist, a supporter of totalitarianism. I understand why they went this route, but how... boring. I would really like Dooku to be an opponent of political corruption and a supporter of a better Republic, as he declared to Obi Wan. That he took up arms only because he decided that this system cannot be reformed, only destroyed and rebuilt from scratch. That he, although not an ardent supporter of the Inhumans, unwittingly respected other cultures and their traditions. But... no. He's just an evil aristocrat with the face of Christopher Lee.

[@RevanX77]

It's a particularly disappointing interpretation because the duel aboard the Invisible Hand is so clearly a reenactment of the confrontation aboard the Death Star II. In which case Palpatine is himself, Anakin is Luke, and Dooku is Vader. Except in this case, Vader is just a throwaway villain that Luke barely has any conflict over killing. It's incredibly shallow in comparison.

[@based4560]

@@RevanX77 Anakin definitely had conflict. Even more than the movie as he tells Palpatine more than once that he shouldn't kill him especially as Dooku was pleading for his life.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

The part about Dooku being racist and anti cyborg is really out of left field in the ROTS novelization. As far as i'm aware that part of his character never shows up anywhere else And i don't know where he could get that sort of ideology growing up in a Jedi temple.

[@dreadrath]

Yeah, that part was so damn random. I personally like to just chalk it up to a mix of his age combined with dark side degradation and also Palpatine's manipulations all twisting his morals beyond all recognition. I mean Palpatine's empire ended up being fairly pro-human, so I kind of wonder if some of Palpi's dream empire didn't rub off on Dooku late into his path into being a Sith.

[@redleaderantilles1263]

That Legacy of the Jedi snippet is a good reminder that Jude Watson is such an underrated star wars author.

[@zooropa04]

The Revenge of the Sith novelization is insanely good. And I loved how Stover experimented with style, too. The closing passage really hit me.

[@Kolonol1]

The big issue is that Dooku wasn't a space racist like the rest of the empire was ..the book was wrong

[@kingorange7739]

@@Kolonol1agreed

[@based4560]

@@Kolonol1 I don't think so as well, but the rest of his character ignoring that makes sense to me.

[@DelzaArmy]

I can't believe Eck would eat your outro screen

[@2Scribble]

One of the things I prefer about the modern characterization of Dooku - a la Tales of the Jedi A political idealist contrasted against an arrogant yet principled fool is far more interesting and engaging than yet another space nazi Tarkin, Hux, Krennic and Snoke have long gad that on lock Dookus naiveté and ability to be both threatening - yet sympathetic - is a lot more fun to watch

[@kingorange7739]

I don't think naive would be the best word (Considering how much he knew even in canon) but rather arrogant. He took the actions he did out of good intentions, however his pride did not allow him to see that his ideals were becoming distorted and that he was ultimately making things worse instead of better. In my my mind (Supported by Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Rendevous, and others), Count Dooku is the embodiment of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[@yankeefederer1994]

Dooku intentionally appropriating the political dissatisfaction as a prelude to Palpatine's rise, and alsp a fake counter mirror to Palpatine as well are two great story beats done by Lucas, although not fleshed out in the movies. His appropriation of the trod upon masses of outer rim species for his own eventual power ambitions are very Sith-like. CIS fan boys try to water down how fascistic Dooku was, but I'm guessing he put down many opponents in the pre-Clone war era. IMO, the gap between Phantom Menace and AOTC is one of the most underdeveloped eras in star wars that has so many characters waiting to be written about.

[@Ashguy733]

I always found the inclusion of that line in the ROTS novelization kinda out of left field, but then watching the meeting between Dooku and the Separatist Council on Geonosis, the representatives are all portrayed as cowardly, self interested and pompous that I can see reinforcing this POV for Dooku, by seeing how these corporate heads of various species interact with another and are quick to look to him to formalize their alliance and future. So it kinda fits. However I do think TCW was the final nail in the coffin in terms of any nuance with the character, he literally is just straight up bad guy. Id like to have seen Dooku object Palpatine at points in that show regarding the Separatist cause, just to either showcase how much he was unaware of Palpatine's machinations, or that he did have an idea of a what he would envision for the galaxy post CW.

[@kingorange7739]

Problem is I think someone as smart as Dooku would have a clear understanding that scummy individuals would not a reflection on the race of said beings and wouldn’t develop such a speciesism rhetoric.

[@Ashguy733]

@kingorange7739 But his aristocratic nature would presume that those with money and power would represent the best of their species. I always saw Dooku as a aristocrat first and snubbed anyone below that class as lesser.

[@kingorange7739]

@ thing is that alone has proven not to be the case or else he wouldn’t had taken issue with the Republic’s corruption being composed of wealthy senators, mostly dominated by humans. So yes, while Dooku would certainly look at himself as superior, and his aristocratic status would feed as part of that. He would not use that status alone as the basis of his identity. If anything, he would view such individuals like the Republic’s senators and CIS Council as beings unworthy of the wealth they gained since it was only gained through corruption rather than earned through moral integrity, (something Count Dooku views himself to have).

[@Ashguy733]

@@kingorange7739 That's actually more realistic. The amount of aristocrats in history that take issue with the political power of other aristocrats because they have the means of power is littered throughout the 19th century. His moral integrity to me is just what he clings to to deal with the hippocratic nature of his cause. The fact that Dooku even sides with the Corporate powers that were essentially putting the Outer Rim under their direct influence and thus essentially subjugating them to their demands of trade in commerce in their regions already has Dooku compromise his own values.

[@kingorange7739]

@ it would if it wasn’t for the fact that they were never meant to win and they were always going to get betrayed. Dooku essentially only used the corporate powers as controlled opposition.

[@HGShurtugal]

People often forget that the dark side is a corruption of the force and doku using it is proof enough that he isn't noble.

[@godhump222]

Actually that isn't entirely true, the wiki says that the dark side is apparently natural and George himself has repeatedly said that neither the light or the dark are inherently either good or evil.

[@godhump222]

Actually that isn't entirely true, the wiki says that the dark side is apparently natural and George himself has repeatedly said that neither the light or the dark are inherently either good or evil.

[@KRobinson-ko1ne]

I’m pretty sure George has said the dark side is purely evil over and over again

[@HGShurtugal]

@godhump222 he said the dark side is a corruption of the force and i don't thinkhes everused the term lightside. The whole balancing of the force is to remove the dark side.

[@kingorange7739]

@@HGShurtugalI wouldn’t necessarily say that automatically places Dooku to not have noble intentions as people have joined the dark side with initially good intentions before. Where almost all fail to grasp is that the dark side will always distort those good intentions into something vile and self serving.

[@gadgetboy4717]

I always assumed Sith naturally had yellow eyes but they would use some sort of force ability to hide such an obvious tell. it was only when they forewent any pretense of subtlety did they truly let the mask fall and show their true nature.

[@TheNotoriousMrDee]

It would help if he didn't have a red lightsaber lol. Why didn't he just keep his original one from when he was a Jedi? He's smart enough to know he's wearing Sith gang colors.

[@dreadrath]

Its a pity the dark side and Palpatine corrupted Dooku's ideals, it would've actually been super interesting if he'd become leader of the C.I.S independent of Palpatine and still, mostly, in the light. I think the way they should have handled Dooku from AOTC to ROTS was to actually have him doing some real good for his side here and there (Perhaps even making people on the Republic's side question if they're on the right side) which would explain how beloved he became, but slowly as the months and years go by, the further he goes down the Sith road, the less good he does and me more horrible things he does, that way we see his decline, and by the end he's completed his transformation into a monster, only to get betrayed and replaced.

[@heavyarms55]

Something's wrong with the start of the video. There's several seconds of dark screen and your first sentence seems to start mid-word. Of course YT could just be derpping too.

[@redlox2]

The only thing Dooku couldn’t plan out for was his MASTER to let him get killed! (Dooku was waiting for so long to do that to his master!) and yeah Dooku real mistake was not factoring in that Sidous wanted it ditch him for a younger more powerful apprentice aka Anakin,

[@redlox2]

Ooh Ddoku fell into the trap of all Sith really (being the one who got killed by the other Sith Lord before they could do it themselves). It’s literally in the “rule of two” after all (it’s just Sidous has no intention of being killed by his apprentices so he kills the off to get better ones first)

[@maciejkamil]

An interesting and in-depth analysys. Thank you.

[@Vidiocity92]

Digging that new outro screen 👍

[@MrImperatorRoma]

Dooku in the Empire butting heads with the likes of Tarkin would be a cool one-off story.

[@TheTb2364]

I really wish someone wrote a fanfic of clone wars, but Palpatine slips in the bathroom right after Geonosis, turning the war into a genuine conflict and not just a political play. It would be interesting how dooku would act when given actual leadership

[@TyrannoNoddy]

Looking at the comments there seems to be a degree of inconsistency in portrayals of Dooku that is continuing to muddy the waters. Some want him more villainous like Lucas, while others want to lean into how there's potential truth to his words, even as his solutions are basically authoritarianism. The way I see it, he did have good intentions at some point and did care about people, but he was always prideful (being prodigious and trained under freaking Yoda would do that), and when he left the order, suddenly accepting becoming a count again meant he basically accepted his prestige. Power corrupts and all that. And then he joins the Sith, becoming more and more ruthless in his methods. Also huh, this is the second video I've seen this week refering to the Holonet website that was used in the leadup to Attack of the Clones.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

Honestly, him being a closeted pro-human, anti-alien, bourgeoisie "nationalist" bigot, for lack of a better term, makes so much sense for this formerly great Jedi paragon ace of a character, which is something the Tales of the Jedi minseries, and thus the rest of the Alt-universe stuff, missed the point on. Same could almost be said of, hmm, Saruman from the Middle-earth works; they truly were good guys, but the darkness was strong enough to make them fall from grace, not to forget the usual disillusionment of "playing paragon" over the years. However, he really shouldn't have begged for mercy in the Revenge of the Sith novelization. That's one thing the movie did better. Addendum: Do sympathize with him ditching the traditional robes though. If I were a Jedi, I'd prefer wearing well shielded armor akin to the ones used by clone commandoes and so on.

[@warlordofbritannia]

See, I think the complete opposite. We already have that ideology for the most part in Palpatine and the Empire as a whole. Dooku being a corrupted idealist, someone who either lost or radicalized his beliefs by his experiences, but still with the self-perception of being an idealist-that’s what I personally prefer.

[@lolmuffins1]

idk, his pro-human racism was only tacked on in the RotJ novelization. He always felt like he was superior to everyone not bc of his race but because of his abilities + wealth. Perhaps you can chalk it up to his dark side corruption reaching a head in the RotJ novel but it always felt like an odd inclusion for Stover to include. Almost like it was based off a rough draft of RotJ which, afaik isn't far from the truth.

[@KamenSentaiMetalHero]

​@@lolmuffins1You mean ROTS?

[@toliveryoung6720]

He is akin to Baylon Skoll in the fact that he used the force in a form of balance, rather than gain the Sith eyes or fall to ambition. Dooku was a believer. I believe that Palpatine used that belief until the end of Tyranus.

[@sulljoh1]

"I hate the establishment" "me, too" "let's replace the system with X" "wait.. What?!"

[@ricoismydaddy2232]

Makes vids like these except an hour long please 😂

[@CHONcorp]

At the topic of Anakin's mechanical arm i am sure that Anakin as the chosen one should be able instead of mechanical arm train to use some kind of phantom force arm to grab physical objects. What do you think of that guys?

[@zooropa04]

Dooku -- the Star Wars galaxy's Albert Speer.

[@edwardkarppi436]

Great video as always!

[@demi-femme4821]

10/10 intro

[@scottmccrea1873]

"Political idealist" & "murderer" are not mutually exclusive.

[@syrello4408]

Agree that the source material largely does not support Dooku being a misguided idealist- but it would be a lot cooler if it did

[@matthewjay660]

I was never enchanted with Darth Tyrannus. I just tolerate him and sigh hoping his scene ends. Darths Maul, Vader, and Sidious-all the way, all day. #PeaceisaLie

[@TorvusVae]

Anyone else decide whether or not they're going to like the video based on how funny the segue is?

[@Arashmickey]

In today's episode: WWDD?

[@0100-d8m]

Based.

[@wolfsoldner9029]

based

[@generalj216]

Based Dooku

[@jaydenluscombe5356]

I believe you tunnelled a bit on this one, focusing more on confirming your initial assumptions and arguments. The approach you've taken is quite linear, as a result you've not effectively shown how Dooku is a nuanced character how was more than just fit to be "evil" his entire life. More time should have been taken to dismiss counter-arguments and address this for a more solid argument, instead of just dismissing them outright. I also believe you missed an opportunity to explore more recent cannon like tales of the jedi and dooku: jedi lost. Both hold a plethora of information which alone is worthy to discuss and bring up details of dookus character that challenges your own arguments. Overall though there were many good points, I believe more research and time discussing the aforementioned counter-points would have improved the quality of your video exposé :)

[@SearNRivers]

Wouldn't Dooku be considered species-ist instead of races? He doesn't really seem to have a problem with any race of human, he just hates other sentient species in the galaxy.

[@kingorange7739]

Simplification, however in the context of Star Wars, they virtually mean the same thing.

[@SearNRivers]

@@kingorange7739 It's just interesting to me since you don't see much, if any, actual intra-human racism in Star Wars. Especially since, it's commonly speculated in scientific and sociological circles that the confirmed existence of extra terrestrial life in our universe / galaxy would likely be one of the only things that would make humans come together enough to see racism between different groups of humans end.

[@RyanBride641]

Liked and subscribed to every video. But this is the final straw, I star wars wasn't political. 9 other creators who have never opened an EU book told me he was based and not a real sith so you are wrong. This is woke propaganda, and this comment is just to boost engagement.

[@TheMrOkamiden]

I do find it fascinating how in legends or canon discussions alike, the Star Wars fandom in general is the only fandom I know that sides with the despots, dictators, and fascists, even when their own ideology would usually not align with them, when it comes to the opinions of The Good Guys. Trusting the words of the cause of the corruption and the disease within the insitituations and known liars, both in and out of universe, over the words of the people trying to undo or heal those instituations while fighting for others rather than their own gains.

[@kingorange7739]

I mean in some cases that is true, however I do think much of the issue comes down to the fact that especially within the Clone Wars era, the beings that were held bent on causing greater harm had control over every major side in question and the good people trying to make things better were either ignorant, complacent, or lacked any real power to stop the corrupt bodies.

[@BN-uh8cm]

Second 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@Shmoosly]

The older I get, the cooler Dooku becomes

[@beardedcanadian2190]

First lol