Day[9]'s Day Off - Beyond All Reason P3

In the mood for 8v8? Thousands of units on screen? RTS design taken to an irresponsible extreme? Look no further. Not gonna lie, Beyond All Reason is pretty sweet lol. It tickles the "sit back and watch explosions" joy.
Game website: www.beyondallreason.info/
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[@riveradam]

Sean asking Twitch chat to explain the resource UI is like a cat trying to teach a dog to catch a bird. The dog is so eager to be helpful but the communication barrier is insurmountable.

[@frollard]

This. I think what Sean needs is separate demand versus surplus (low priority) spend numbers versus total spend numbers.

[@lessthanwords]

He explicitly says he doesn't want it explained though, and that he is only pointing out his issues with it. And me not having played BAR, I have to say I agree with him fully - it's unintuitive and not showing at a glance what's most important at a given point in time, namely "you've told us to build for X/s, you earn Y/s, you currently spend Z/s". All the priority juggling may be great for finetuning your construction (?), but that's not the initial concern for the most prominent resource display.

[@CrazySw3de]

@@lessthanwords I think the issue with what he's asking is that, for example, with the construction bots, the "demand" can fluctuate, as build power is basically a separate resource will "activate" as soon as there are resources available. Because of that I think he is just wildly overcomplicating the thought process there. It should really just be "my metal is at 0, I need more metal". Then if you start having a surplus of both, you know that you need to invest in more builders. I think this is one of those concepts that likely intuitively seems like it would be very simple, but in reality is one of those things where even if you showed it how people *think* it should look, it would lead to numbers that just confuse in a different way. It's just much simpler to think of it as a need to balance resources. 0 metal, build more metal. 0 energy, build more energy. Surplus of one/both, make more builders, or go up a tier and get more expensive units.

[@4spenzor4]

i think he was under the impression that the red number was the demand of all currently qued up construction cost aka the cost of everything he is trying to build ... but it actually the out flow how much metal that is being used at the moment... and additionally confuse by build power.... because with out enough build power that number gets caped because the builders cant build fast enough

[@bertholdb9037]

@@4spenzor4 Not exatly the cost, but the rate of the cost per second. And honestly, it would make sense. That number is kind of useless right now. If you are at 0 metal, and not gaining any, obviously you are spending more than you are making. Much more useful would be the information: "Your construction could use 3 times as much metal as you are currently gaining, basically giving you information about how much buildpower you have available. It is also excessively weird that priority interacts with that.

[@sethwestfall5931]

Total Annihilation was my go to game growing up. Thank you for playing this game. I downloaded it and am having a blast. Please keep playing!

[@Alex-fn2hl]

It's actually so cool to watch you play a variety of RTS games. You've got the skills to learn fast, but are still learning, so you're making relatable mistakes for newbies. I love it!

[@RManatee]

Great to see you playing this Day9. BAR deserves the exposure! I’ve only been playing for like two ish months now. I’m really digging the control that this game gives you over your units. Lots of little QoL stuff that separates it from any other RTS imo. The community needs an influx of positivity though 😂

[@yourimpossibletoisgn]

God I wish day8 would play bar for like 3 months

[@manumaster1990]

3 years*

[@yang8244]

Best TA successor game yet and its totally free and open code. You have barely scratched the surface. There are many layers to BAR.

[@CrazySw3de]

I think the mindset for the metal input/output should be more just "if you're at 0, you need more metal". It said in the tooltip that it was the demand *if the is sufficient supply and storage*. I think the difficult thing to wrap your head around is that build power is seemingly unlimited. Maybe not in practice, but you could throw tons of build towers/engineers etc. at something and demand could be basically constantly changing wildly up and down depending on what those various things are helping out with. It seems like rather than having those kind of crazy swings, they just make it so if you're over and don't have any supply/storage, it effectively just shows as zeroing out. Because of that, the mentality should just be "if I'm at zero, my economy isn't balanced and I need more metal". You should basically be trying to get to that point until you start seeing some kind of surplus. It isn't really like other strategy games where you pay for something up front and know you don't have enough when it tells you that you can't build something. In that sense it seems like with this game the emphasis is much more on basically trying to balance the two resources until they start getting to the point that they are going too far positive, then getting more resources to increase build power to spend those resources.

[@quineloe]

main issue is the game doesn't tell you how much metal you NEED now to use your build power. If you saw you're at -1000 metal and at +50, you'd probably reconsider 3x3 grids of construction towers.

[@DreaMeRHoLic]

I wonder how many episodes it will take till we reach the point of "a jammer jams the radar, but he has units with high line of sight and still messes with me" to the "ok, i can counter LoS play... but damit, T1 spam gives vision". The learning curve is wonderful, but the times you have to basicly rewire your whole thoughtprocess in this game to evolve your own play can make you feel that you learn stuff but in the end not learn anything at all, because you are back to the start over and over again.

[@rogue-ish5713]

That Bombing run @ 1:16:15 was the stuff Air Commanders dream of.

[@chronopolize_jp]

Hilarious how it took up half of his screen but he didn't see it. Selective vision 😂

[@frollard]

The bot lab is set to low priority, so it 'demands' only surplus. if there is no surplus, the bot lab demand is zeroed out before it even requests into the demand number. If the commander tries to build, it adds 18 or whatever demand because it has priority. If a bot tries, it adds whatever it's capable of it seems.

[@sygos]

i just saw your pc gaming show, you're so charismatic you are a joy to watch. i'm gonna get into playing rts games just so i can watch more of your videos. i get so much joy from watching you

[@TrollAxeThrower]

When you cancel something you build, your turrets (if places so they will help everything) will change their build power into the things you're already building, so you might not see a change when you cancel building, because the build power is just diverted, which means spending stays the same. One thing you should have noticed was that when you stopped building units, the other things you were building - eco, was completed much much faster. You can imagine a faucet filling several bathtubs, where you have a valve for each bath tub and one valve for the main pipe. Spreading too thin means all bathtubs will fill slowly, (assuming a constant flow) so what you can do about it is close valves of some bathtubs to fill one bathtub faster. This is where Zerg econ kind of fits this scenario. Because you should usually make a choice where your build power goes. Into economy, or into Units. If you build all at once, they will all build slowly, but, if you build only units, they will come out faster, so you can get an advantage on the battlefield, and if you build only economy, you will increase the overall flow, allowing you at some point to fill the economy and units bathtubs simultaneously.

[@Garethaxz]

The pronunciation of ~Dieayed~, kills me every time

[@quineloe]

Amazing he spent the last 45 minutes of the stream theorycrafting and learning about the game in training mode, only to never play it again

[@Tim_van_de_Leur]

2:22:00 -ish, just read the tooltips. you cant spend more than you're earning. also the percentages on the right tell you how good your converters are. this makes metal income fluctuate since no enrgergy = no conversion Also look at priorities for your builders. Stuff with high prio gets resources first.

[@manumaster1990]

nice!

[@nerdshredz4662]

Totally agree with the showing of spend amounts etc... Really well explained 💙

[@timoschofer2035]

Also expand straight forward with com not zig zag. The second lane u can cover with a con

[@ThomasUfnalCrowlake]

Question from somebody who doesn't play BAR: is it normal that even after getting wrecked by air you don't build anti air, instead depending on other players to provide AA? Also, for some reason YT decided this video features StarCraft...

[@nKeth]

If you spawn on the sides you probably still need to make your own aa

[@nKeth]

Just a couple static d is enough maybe add 4 more tier 2 aa at 20 minutes

[@DayThr33]

Looks like a cool game, shame it keeps crashing for me.

[@timoschofer2035]

1:40:00 that's the result of being too greedy. Hardly units, no llt in base, only wind no solar which gives u constant e and has far more HP and last but not least naked expansion

[@bartz0rt928]

I get Sean's confusion. The way the construction turrets works really messes with how the UI works.

[@0xbaadf00d]

If the plays more BAR, he needs a tutor or to watch a replay to get the basic build order right. You need so much more power at early game.

[@WhereyouatIo]

It is really really frustrating looking at half these comments half a year later. Boneheads on B.A.R. is too real. Maybe if the UI showed me how much I COULD spend along with how much I AM spending it would be better that the current system. You ever think of that? No? Yeah, didn't think so, you just want to shout about low priority shutting off turrets. . . . . . which doesn't have any relation to the UI not showing how much they COULD spend. It would be nice if people tried to understand what good game design would look like. I decided to change my entire build power output to High Priority due to this video because I don't want to shut off my turrets when I don't have resources. I want my turrets to be telling me I wasted resources on too many of them so I can build more units instead of wasting metal. Won way more games after making this change.

[@merek5380]

The UI does express how much you could spend along with how much you are spending, and that would be the rate of change of your energy and metal meters. Besides, build power isnt global, the potential build power is limited to the amount of constructors in rage of anything being built. Furthermore what would this number express? Energy dependent builds? Metal dependent builds? If im floating a lot of energy and not a lot of metal my potential to build a metal converter is high, but a solar collector is low.... All if the information you need about build power is expressed by the rates of change in metal and energy... if you have too many resources, invest in build power and if your economy is stalling out on a resource by overspending then redirect builders or turn them off.

[@brandonwestfall3241]

For the love of god, the builders with "Low Priority" STOP BUILDING WHEN YOU RUN OUT OF RESOURCES Holy fuck this hurts my soul to watch

[@Ephigy17]

For those watching, your deficit (red number) is capped by your build power (stat on building units and buildings), which Sean stubbornly refused to look at and understand.

[@imperiallarch7610]

I thought he sort of intuited this when he was experimenting with constructor turrets in the previous episode?

[@andrewzmorris]

No, the part Sean didn't understand was that build turrets don't actually increase demand unless there is capacity. Everything else in the game seems to increase demand correctly, but not build turrets.

[@TitanHawk1]

@@andrewzmorris Think your spot on AJ. Bots/Commander can go negative as much as they want. Buildings act different and can only go up to cap before, in a way, turning themselves off. Same way building without power will turn themselves off and become inoperational.

[@bartz0rt928]

No, you're wrong. He's expecting the red number to show the total *demand,* which is a correct expectation. It's how it works when you don't have construction turrets, and it's how it works in all other games like this (SubCom, TA, PA...). What's tripping him up is that the turrets switch off when there's no more stock, but then stock rises again and they immediately switch back on so the behaviour is indistinguishable from how the other construction units work (reduced output at 0 stock), even though it's completely different. The in/out numbers look like they're taking an average over a second or so, so the result is that at 0 stock your outflow just matches your inflow when you have construction turrets. If I were a dev on BAR, I would consider this a bug. Like Sean says, it makes it impossible to tell how big your metal / energy deficit actually is when you have turrets on low priority and hit 0 stock. I can see a few ways to fix this: - have turret assists work more like a factory guard command on a construction unit, so that it doesn't switch off when stock hits zero but just reduces output; - give the turrets some hysteresis, so they don't switch back on until stocks hit a certain higher level; - have the UI take into account the extra demand that *would* occur if the turrets remained on (probably hard to do).

[@tyr8959]

the behaviour of build towers is due to them being low priority, which everyone trying to explain build power over and over were not getting

[@MrProthall]

I wonder why we need BAR... Still fun to play Supreme Commander and that game is finished and, with the community mod, way upt to date.

[@dicedoom7162]

with supreme commander i have major lag, this game less