Debate With Justin Lima: Olympic Lifts (Cleans) Vs. Power Complex

[@MarkTennis100]

The power complex seems like cherry picking the movement (cleans) so you can avoid weak points (end range resilience, transition strength, external object manipulation). Olympic lifts require 'good enough' weak points. This is also how all sports and applied movements work: the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Coaches that break up applied movements like this are stuck in the isolation phase of Isolate --> Integrate --> Improvise. Seems they're only looking at measurables and not what the measurables REPRESENT.

[@VocalBeast]

Love this comment and what you said about being strong enough in the weakest point is so true

[@davidavido1010]

Will never misses. A point that I was surprised that wasn't addressed in the team sport training industry is time efficiency. Why use more time to do a complex (that clearly does not have the same level of stimulus compared to Oly lifts) rather than use less time doing the Oly lift? I get that teaching it requires a learning curve, but barring past injuries, athletes are organisms that can adapt to the stress they receive. Let your athletes practice the movements, learn, and grow. The acquisition of skill even in the weight room has benefits, especially in the case of Oly lifts (because they have a wide range of qualities that help athletes prepare for sport). The ROI on teaching your athletes the Oly lifts are insane. And with that additional time from not doing a complex, you can spend it on improving other qualities that can be addressed.

[@bradleycampbell844]

This is the comment that I was looking to post if it had not been already. You summed it up perfectly. If a coach is so focused on efficiency, why set up three or more exercises to get some of the benefits of one exercise? On top of that, Justin says that he is still using Olympic lifts anyhow. So where is the efficiency? Also, by neglecting to load a movement at the end range of motion, Justin is missing out on training the stretch reflex and building resilience in the connective tissue.

[@sunminkim299]

Since Will appreciates debating and I also want my ideas to be challenged, I'll share my thoughts on Will's take on olympic lifts. 1. Will claims as one of oly's benefits "creating propulsion onto an external body of mass only to have to yield it within milliseconds". : Unless you're participating in sports where you thrust an object or an opponent forward and upward with your hips, there's really no special benefits to creating propulsion onto an external body of mass through hip contact. Also, regular loaded jumps and lifts also create propulsion of the load because it moves. You don't always have to thrust your hips onto it to propel it. But yeah that feeling when you thrust your hips onto the bar is one of the reasons people including me find cleans and snatches fun and engaging (also makes me feel powerful) 2. Trains elastic qualities at deep ranges of motion (which I also think isn't even that relevant to peak sports performance. Quarter or half squat positions are much more important) : The only time olympic lifts train "true" elastic qualities (I'm not sure what Will means as elastic qualities here cause it's such an umbrella term but training elasticity or being elastic usually contains the concept of stretch-shortening cycle, particularly fast SSC) is during double knee bends which is not really a deep range, it's rather at very shallow knee flexion angle. If Will was referring to immediately getting up upon catching the bar at deep squat position, it's not going to be fast enough for the musculo-tendinous unit to utilize fast SSC especially considering the fact that the load used is usually higher when doing squatted variations of olympic lifts. Just regular jumps like loaded split squat jumps have much more potential for developing elastic qualities at deeper ranges. 3. Rapid brace and contraction at catch (vs front SQ drop which Will claims is slower) : For this one, I think it depends on where you catch the bar (power clean vs squat clean). If it's squat clean, I agree with Will because it's really hard to drop into that deep position with heavy load on your shoulder without starting to decelerate the bar in the middle of descent in front squat drop. However if its above parellel position, front squat drop is more potent exercise even if you use the same or even less load than power clean because the vertical distance the bar travels which accelerates the bar downward is much bigger than in power cleans where you catch the bar when its downward velocity is closer to zero or very low. Regarding the speed of the drop, I'm not really sure which one's faster, but when you're doing a clean, your body is propelling upward before you have to reverse that by pulling yourself down aided by the bar decelerating the upward momentum of your own mass upon hip contact. So it's more technically demanding to drop fast in cleans which can make it slower whereas in front squat drop, you can get set and ready before dropping so it's easier to drop faster. Only thing is that you need to drop into the position really fast to actually let the bar come off your shoulder and accelerate downward. 4. Rapid wholebody flexion after wholebody extension : Agree with Will on this because there isn't any exercise that trains this quality in power complex. But although dropping into low positions is one of key features of elite performers, I don't think they'd benefit much on this by doing cleans. They'd develop this quality much better by just doing their sports and specific works such as deceleration drills, split stance drop catches or even tuck jumps or box jumps which require this qualities at much high velocity. If anything, Wholebody "extension" after flexion is much much more important quality to develop for athletes (COD, Jumps, etc) which can be developed much better by just regular loaded jumps (Jerks would also be a better option than clean for this reason). So If you want to this both (rapid wb flexion and extension), I'd suggest loaded AFSM(coined by Cal Dietz) onto box or things of that nature. 5. Snatch : shoulder joints move through long ROM under high load and speed : I don't know what Will considers as "long ROM" but snatch doesn't really move the shoulder through long ROM but jerks do. But I guess its all relative. Also, the shoulder doesn't move under high load because they're almost off-loaded upon hip contact. During pulls and at catch are only times when shoulders are loaded heavy but they don't move fast during those phases. Relatively speaking, It doesn't make sense that something heavy or heavily loaded moves fast. Counter-movement jumps with arm swing moves the shoulder joints at much higher velocity at much longer ROM.

[@cheeks7050]

The skill involved in the olympic lifts is a feature not a bug. Learning a new skill makes an athlete better.

[@frostedflakes55]

100% they are an excellent alternative on a day when your too beat up to do sprints or jumps and the skill aspect boosts coordination.

[@jacklauren9359]

If you have 30mins on them 3x a week, how do you maximise that time when Olympic lifting is so technical? Depends on the goal of the athlete. Are you focusing on intra or inter muscular coordination to improve the athletes performance? Question you need to ask yourself, if you are starting from scratch, you wont start doing Olympic lift yeh? You will start with your basic movement patterns

[@ShawnLallJD]

@@cheeks7050 yes but in the context of limited resources (gym time, recovery, etc.) you need to ask yourself what the counterfactual is. Obviously learning a new skill makes an athlete better, but what is the opportunity cost?

[@huntersturgeon9965]

This power complex guy sounds like someone in a multi-level marketing scheme.

[@charlesyott5673]

Ladies and Gentlemen… The one we’ve all been waiting for

[@craigdoef]

Justin lost as soon as he said that dropping into a front squat is comparable to dropping with the bar during a power clean. The entire debate is kindof retarded, because Justin acknowledges the unique features of the power clean, and says the power complex can compensate for this by adding exercises. Will recognises (I think) that a heavy deadlift provides a greater hip hinge strength adaptation than a clean. Hence the best thing to do is both the power clean, and the things the power clean isn't optimally training (i.e. Will likes to do both cleans and heavy deadlifts - makes sense). But Justin's solution is to completely avoid the clean, and try to duplicate every single stimulus vector with an individual exercise, which is clearly a less efficient option, especially if done in a 'complex'. I have no idea why Justin doesn't just say yeah bro, we should definitely clean to get those unique stimuli, and then the power complex can pick up the slack from where the clean left off, pun intended.

[@nathandowney7514]

This was weird! Will looked pissed at the end, other guy didn’t even wanna be there lol. Thanks Will for giving it a shot!

[@StandStrength]

If someone starts their argument in defense of their position with “we still do the things I am arguing against” then the rest of the debate is pointless. I get this isn’t a formal debate, but the amount of times Justin went off topic or had non-arguments is just ridiculous.

[@angelvelez03]

I was waiting for this one 🔥🔥

[@Fluggrugger1]

Huge fan of Will Ratelle and also Olympic Weightlifting. Was awesome to hear such an articulate take on the OLY lifts and how they are superior for many various athletic traits (I’ve thought this and personally experienced this for quite some time) I can honestly say with full confidence I did NOT hear any compelling arguments that would sway me as a recreational rugby athlete or personal trainer to EVER prioritize the “power complex” over cleans (power or full cleans)

[@frostedflakes55]

A lot of depends on the individual sport of choice and rugby pairs so well with Olympic lifts that I would argue it's almost a requirement. Like it's more important than say box jumps buttt take a volleyball athlete and the opposite is true.

[@Fluggrugger1]

@@frostedflakes55 I’d agree. I’d also say that certain oly lift variations (sensibly implemented) would still work for taller athletes and other sports as well. My thought process is to analyze the athletes individual needs for their sport and then apply tools (which I think oly lifts are GREAT tools) to help meet the needs.

[@klouczers]

Approaching +200kg in deadlift without a warm up sets is just crazy. Don't try to change my mind.

[@Dessyhinds78]

Why does dude at the bottom look so hurt ? 😂

[@cheeks7050]

He wears backwards cap at age 45

[@patrickkern5019]

Would love to see you discuss the efficacy of Olympic lifting with Mark Asanovich if possible.

[@charlesborel8493]

Here’s another thing. You are doing fractions of the weight on Olympic lifts as opposed to your 1 rpm on a deadlift or squat. It is not ego lifting. Of course you want to lift more weight over time as an individual, but it’s not about the weight on the bar. The only time the weight on the bar is the most important factor is in competition. You don’t have to lift a lot to get the benefits out of Olympic lifting especially in the full version. You just want to do the best you can and grow from there cause I’m telling you when you first start practicing the full Olympic lifts your number will be LOW. The same with sprinting, you don’t have to be fast to get the benefit, YOU just have to run as fast as YOU can as an individual. You may be slow as shit lol but your running fast for what your capable of. I like the points about bracing for impact and injury prevention type stimulus the Olympic lifts provide. I really believe that an individual that is trained in Olympic lifts has a MUCH better chance of surviving something like a bad vehicle accident or something of the nature! I read a comment that said Olympic lifts are glorified ego lifting, they say that cause your Olympic lift numbers are good, just cause your strong they say it’s ego lifting 😂 when the truth is Olympic lifts will help you get better number maximally which complements Olympic number and drives them up as well ! Good debate that really wasn’t one to begin with. I believe in using the full versions and power versions.

[@christopherseat9871]

A real conversation

[@Ucantseeme165]

I have grappled and wrestled all my life. Nothing about it is comparable to the Olympic lifts.

[@Fluggrugger1]

Exactly

[@Ucantseeme165]

@@secureyourgainz I disagree. I have used Will's programs. They are a lot of fun and I made solid progress. What do you mean by "ego" lifting?

[@frostedflakes55]

​@@secureyourgainz not sure it's ego lifting at all when your as big as he is.

[@frostedflakes55]

Because wrestling doesn't use triple extension like the vast majority of other sports do. There is no running or jumping. But I still think the explosiveness paired with strength makes the olys a potent tool for grapplers imo.

[@cheeks7050]

will's argument would benefit from expanding his thoughts on the meaning of "global stimulus"

[@KYRsm00ve]

If Justin is really committed to reducing power based exercise (which lets be honest is every exercise) to its constituent parts and qualities and finding exercises which train each part and quality individually, then let's ask where does this reductive process end? Extend the idea to the deadlift. It is a hip hinge movement, an isometric back contraction, a stretch/rapid contraction of the hamstrings, a firing of the quads with a slight bit of knee extension, and an intensive brace of the core: if I'm slightly off in my prescription of the individual components, first, I'm sure someone would be able to accurately describe them, secondly, this should serve as a sign that the individual reductions as a concatenation is dubious at best in replacing a deadlift. Which reductions exactly equate to the deadlift? So instead of deadlifting, I am just going to create a 5 step complex which trains each of those parts (and in doing so training the individually quality of those parts) more effectively than just doing the deadlift...Where does that end? At this point you are not doing anything remotely close to a deadlift. What are the load prescriptions? the rest times in the series? What are the outputs? and, again, how do any of these equate to doing the actual deadlift? I don't think Justin would commit himself to this position, at least I hope not. I presume he'd say it only works with the olympic lifts? but how is a theory of training power as a complex only applicable to a select modes of power?

[@samvega290]

Then you get cal dietz, which I respect because he actually took the process to its logical conclusion, but it seems impossible to implement

[@KYRsm00ve]

@@samvega290 Tri Phasic training?

[@samvega290]

@@KYRsm00ve if you follow what he actually does now his system is crazy and he has a method for essentially every type of adaptation that he tries to get

[@derontariuswiscenlitago5379]

If there’s an athlete that’s very strong but isn’t good at the clean, in my opinion the power complex stimulus would be better as there would be more load relative to their actual potential, since skill will likely not limit them. If the athlete can properly clean, the power complex becomes sub-optimal now, as you could save time and get all of the qualities in a single rep, at a more potent level. I see it as a continuum where the left is Power Complex and the right is the clean. With a novice, the power complex is better and as they improve at the clean, the clean then becomes the better stimulus.

[@cheeks7050]

Haven't listened yet but I'm hoping Lima gets into the 20 rep DB snatch method for improving power outputs. /s

[@nickcustodi592]

LOL WUT does he really prescribe this

[@cheeks7050]

@@nickcustodi592 In his previous podcast with Will that he just released under duress he talked about it yeah 🤣

[@brandonfernandez980]

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. C’mon, this is old news.

[@cheeks7050]

That is far too wise a thing to say around someone like Justin Lima

[@paulleclaire8252]

This was cool

[@martmuru]

Why not just use heavy deadlifts, squats and bench to build absolute strength and sprint & plyos to build speed and power?

[@willratelle8027]

That was my point early in the debate

[@matthewross8065]

I get it. So the clean is a good at basically everything; touches all aspects to a great amount. If you really want to touch all those aspects without cleaning you’re going to have do 3-4 different exercises/activities which could theoretically being taxed at a greater level as they do not require as much skill to complete as the clean.

[@matthewross8065]

Or you could just do cleans and clean often lol.

[@Gr.Ch.Vengeance]

I don't understand why he teaches the snatch, but not the clean...

[@BuJammy]

The Chad Will Ratelle vs The Virgin Justin Lima The Chad Olympic Lifts vs The Virgin Power Complex The Chad Bic'd Head vs The Virgin Backwards Cap Ok, I'll stop.

[@gabrielhaley5660]

I find it kinda funny Justin decided to upload the “rotational power” video on his channel but not this………..I think we got em

[@geraldpena8292]

Someone check on Justin

[@almahiislam3424]

With loaded jumps you can get those stimulus Will is talking about. Specially repetitive jumps

[@willratelle8027]

You can’t though

[@machado6377]

Can we have theses stated pre-debate/at the start of the debate, otherwise everything just gets super nebulous like you were mentioning

[@willratelle8027]

Yeah. We should’ve both stated our position as part of the intro. I assumed my audience at least knows my position.

[@Drewtake15]

So intense lol, watched 3 times, definitely love this video and your statement!❤

[@francesco_pesi]

i didnt get why he chooses snatches over cleans. And why does it even snatched if the power complex does it better

[@francesco_pesi]

also makin the argument that most athletes can only clean 100lb while SLDL 275, and if those people could clean with will technique and proficiency they wouldnt be having this conversation. The snatch and the jerk are inherently more difficult that a clean. So what's the point???

[@rickrickerton3703]

When is your debate with Jared Bidne?

[@willratelle8027]

We did it last week. We had some technical difficulties cuz he wanted to record it on his end too, which we weren’t able to figure out. It ended up being really short cuz we were rushed through time. I’m waiting for him to consent to putting it out. I texted him after also asking if he wants to do a part 2 and haven’t heard back. I’ll likely just put it out if I don’t hear back from him.

[@klouczers]

@@willratelle8027hahaha. That's telling

[@gabe-cv7yt]

@@klouczers Likely he's busy putting kids into d1 football programs than doing internet debates. Cleans are a waste of time for athletes. I took mine up 70 pounds in year and didn't gain a single inch on my vertical. Plus as Mark Asanovich says they're dangerous and make athletes more prone to injury, explosive movements with lots of weight are way more risky and beat you down more rather than moving slowly with a heavy weight, coming from a NFL coach whose team had the least injuries in the league while he was S&C Coach with them.

[@craigdoef]

@@gabe-cv7yt Yeah those are perspectives with some truth to them, but that doesn't make OLY lifts a waste of time. Even if they were useless for developing vert and 40 measurements, they still provide great stimuli in other areas e.g. learning how to optimise leverage very quickly. Do you think Lasha Talakhadze would be really bad at playing DT and exploding off the line of scrimmage? Probably not. He can clean and jerk 585 lb. Imagine what he could do to a 300 lb Guard.

[@klouczers]

@@gabe-cv7yt I'm a simple man, I like internet debates with 🔥 (left on the bell curve)

[@blakewatson5135]

Great points Will. I wanted to single out Justin's argument that the training stimulus created by the power complex is greater than the stimulus created by the clean (a point he only mentioned after the host mentioned it). While I see and agree with you that the stimulus created by the power complex is not equivalent to the stimulus created by a clean, from a debate perspective, Justin's argument really appears to carry a lot of weight. Watching this, I feel that if someone did not have enough background knowledge and or experience before watching this debate, it might even appear that Justin had a stronger argument simply because of this one point. In my opinion, the only way to bring this point back to Earth is to continue pressing on the fact that the debate is centered around the false statement that stimulus from one is equivalent to stimulus from the other. Although not truly relevant to the debate, I feel you should have a more clear tactic when this argument is brought up in the future. One other similar argument that I feel Justin should have pressed on more is related to the spectrum you mentioned. The idea of training extreme ends of the spectrum was brought up at some point. I feel Justin could have made the argument that because each individual stimulus from the movements in the power complex may yield a greater training stimulus for specific qualities all trained by the clean, the power complex better trains the extreme ends of the spectrum compared to the clean. He must have missed this one because he was clearly searching for points to make. Will, is your argument to this still the qualitative training stimuli provided by the clean? Specific to your argument, you really got Justin early on when he stated he would implement other movements in addition to the power complex to train all the qualities addressed by the clean. I feel this was one of your strongest points and it sent him back-pedaling.

[@jackdowdell6684]

The continuity of a clean vs. being broken apart into a complex I think is the ticket here. You're going to do everything in the complex throughout a week anyways along with doing cleans. With Justin's method I feel like your missing more than the other way around.

[@felipecastro6705]

this was hard to watch on both ends not gonna lie.

[@RyanOCall]

I know it didn't have much significance in the debate, but I'm still hung up on the fact that this guy says he'd feel comfortable walking into the weight room and pulling 300lbs as his first set - no previous warm up sets. He tried to qualify the statement by suggesting he'd been sprinting beforehand - as if that really makes a difference. He's either full of shit or just a complete mutant.

[@anthonykonas1003]

An athlete is not going to put as much effort into some silly jump shrug complex as they will into a heavy clean. Period. It's a completely different mentality. If you know you have to get under a bar, your mindset is going to be totally different. Show me an athlete jump shrugging 315lbs and hang cleaning 315lbs. The peak velocities won't even be close. Also, comparing a heavy RDL to a clean is asinine, it blows my mind the type of people that get the privilege to work with such high-level athletes.

[@ShawnLallJD]

Not the most productive debate. You need a better moderator that can help you point out exactly what the contention is. The complex guy says the complex is “better”; but what does better mean? It can mean a better stimulus generally, or a better stimulus to fatigue ratio (where fatigue includes the amount of resources needed to execute the lift, ie. learning). Will’s point is oly lifts offer a unique stimulus which is trivially true. Obviously you can’t get the exact same stimulus unless you’re doing the exact same movement. But “better” has to mean more than just “different stimulus”, especially in the context of limited resources. Because the mod couldn’t identify the point of contention, this entire debate is summed up by the complex guy saying “I think complexes are better than oly lifts” and Will saying “I disagree”.

[@willratelle8027]

Lol pretty accurate analysis.

[@ShawnLallJD]

@ Happy to moderate a debate if you need a moderator. I’m not an expert in sports performance like you but I’m a litigator and simplifying complex disputes regarding things I know nothing about is what I do for a living. I also have a background in logical reasoning.

[@frostedflakes55]

French contrast type bs is a waste of effort. You need 100% maximal effort paired with maximal amounts of specificity to make the best progress that will transfer to the field. The olys are really just 1 more tool for a serious athlete who wants an edge its worth the learning curve. And they are very fun so theres that. I think what this Justin Lima guy is trying to get across but doing a terrible job of expressing is that he only has so much time with his athletes and hes got to get the most bang for the buck going on and in reality hes trying to say he is in a less than ideal situation (which any S&C team sports coach knows) and just wants his athletes to be well rounded in their development which is understandable. But if you are a dedicated athlete with more time on your hands you should probably learn at least 1 olympic lift.

[@mattday9201]

Diet cola, niice

[@frostedflakes55]

At the end of the video you guys are discussing the stimulus of olys versus power complexes. While i think complexes are stupid because they decrease intensity. OLYMPIC LIFTS DO NOT REQUIRE MORE FORCE OR RFD THAN A SIMPLE BOX JUMP OR FULL SPEED SPRINT PERIOD. Mathematically you are lifting your whole body off the ground and that requires more RFD than any olympic lift relative to each individual person. And still olys are a great tool its like you guys are argueing over whether its better to have forks and knifes or forks and spoons when in reality its time and place because you likely need all 3 its just when. Lmfao...i think what will is getting at is that for any contact sport athlete the olympic lifts are invaluable which is 100% true imo. Buttt in the context of faster actions like jumping OLYMPIC LIFTS ARE SLOW unless you focus on speed with moderate weights and use only hang versions no full cleans...im sorry but full cleans are SOOOO much slower than a vertical jump and people need to wakeup to this fact.

[@frostedflakes55]

In sports true power is really speed. And i dont mean necessarily running speed but all types of movements done really fast really well. Power is often times just too slow to be relevant except in contact sports where things slow down enough. But a guy having a a really fast tennis serve isnt really power its speed. And plyos and speed work will always be superior to olys but olys are great especially in season to replace traditional weight lifting or off season to replace or go along with speed/plyo work. Imo ofc In addition if you need more power work than your getting on field atleast in season...your probably not playing hard enough with enough intent. I hope everyone knows you express more power in a hang clean than a full clean because jumping under the weight shortens the distance under load and just makes it easier. Additionally there is ZERO evidence that a clean or any olympic lift will beat a simple box jump or sprint if your going head to head. Doesnt mean olys are useless. Also lifting heavy weights and doing power excercises in the same session does decrease the quality of the power excercises period.

[@Aleksander_Jurecki]

Creatine

[@vivinvincent692]

fucked up wrist and shoulder, that too for professional atheletes who are seasoned. Olympics lifts no thanku..

[@NotMyFault2]

Perhaps you were destined for a wrist and shoulder injury, regardless of the exercise?

[@TheBrunk4]

In the last video with Justin and Will they talked about how special circumstances will always supercede generalizations. So if you specifically have a wrist and shoulder issue then of course blindly programing the Olympic lifts would not be a good course of action.

[@jfitness432]

Never a one size fits all with exercise, a lot of people majoring in the minors these days.

[@jfitness432]

Very frivolous debate, Justin seems like a deeper thinker but I certainly respect will and he’s a tremendous athlete

[@alanbaskaev3907]

Wtf is power complex?

[@cheeks7050]

It's drinking water, c02, flavours, sugar. When you could just drink a bottle of coke.