Destiny Actually Convinces Her To Concede A Trans Debate

[@HomemadeSubmarine]

My vote is to replace Lav with the cool Ukrainian girl

[@johandaniels]

The problem is that beyond that one time it's not all that interesting to hear someone that you 100% agree with. More interesting to hear a debate between two people with different views. Sorry for a boring response 😆

[@ranggagilang4223]

@@blickluke just wait until august upload it. You're gonna love her.

[@shelbyleighiskey]

100% agree

[@Lillmackish]

@@ranggagilang4223 Hasn't it been uploaded already? Maybe I saw it live Also, I think Lav discussions are pretty enjoyable to listen to. She always comes out with her opinion guns blazing, but is also chill and actually seems to listen to what's being communicated to her, and responds in turn

[@christopherwest671]

I just made a moderate defense of lav in another comment. But uh yeah - based. Please.

[@lucastsen]

Lav is proof that i'm straight because despite listening to this whole thing, i'm still attracted to women

[@OdinWannaBe]

take 2 sec to report the dude trying to scam clueless people.

[@secondheaven9545]

Yep

[@KarlieStarrSings]

lol me with Andrew Tata

[@fallsunset5862]

I didn't get the joke at first 😂😂

[@durandus676]

Man I got SAd by a woman an I’m still attracted. I wish I was gay.

[@z144p]

Watching lav have a debate is like watching a frog jump on lilypads and every lily pad she jumps on ends up sinking but she never really stays long enough to feel the consequences.

[@Nemtrac5]

Yet every jump is as confident as the last.

[@Mutantdogfangs]

Nah, she was right but kept going off on unrelated tangents and not elaborating or questioning destiny further. She just isnt a good debater at all

[@nocuh]

Pepe wins 🐸👍

[@logged.in.]

You memba the part right in the beginning when she asked destiny what it feels like to be a man and he couldn't answer I memba

[@drewrobitaille7989]

Lol perfect

[@SkylierRain]

I love that people will still boldface say destiny is transphobic when multiple conversations exactly like this exist.

[@WanderTheNomad]

They don't know conversations like this exist and are unwilling to look for conversations like this because they think Destiny is transphobic. Also, aside from that, most people probably aren't gonna be willing to listen to 1+ hour long debate videos.

[@perplexingpantheon]

TRUE

[@keys5595]

@@WanderTheNomad while this is true. It is funny that the people that are calling destiny transphobic are the ones who do watch debate content like this from other people lol

[@null6955]

probably bc there are levels of transphobia to ppl. i'd be called a transphobe for having issue with trans women in sports, just like destiny has been, because to them trans women should be considered women, and a superior kind of woman in certain sports, like tall people and basketball. people who don't want kids to have hrt period would be called transphobes, because they're going off the narrative that trans kids might regret what that does to their body and that reinforces the idea that trans people are socialized into becoming trans. you're always gonna be a transphobe to someone, even other trans people. i mean one of the most prominent trans women was just cancelled for liking a pro trans-medicalism post on insta.

[@Mrraerae]

He didn't yell at Lav calling her evil when she said transness is a delusion, he is clearly not pro-trans enough. So he is a reactionary

[@KarlieStarrSings]

59:17 I wish Destiny was wrong here, but in a way he's right. I'm a wheelchair user with a facial difference. My experience with dating in high school and college was more difficult compared to my other female friends. I felt very infantilized whereas Lav had said that when she grew up she felt sexualized. Even in a non romantic sense, me being stared at because of my face is a COMPLETELY different form of discomfort than a conventionally attractive woman being stared at by men.

[@TheTGOAC]

I think this comment has no replies because people feel bad. I don't. You're a person, just like everyone else. You're capable of living otherwise you wouldn't have gone to high school or college. Shits gonna work out. Or it doesn't and you die either way. Stiff upper lip lads o7

[@Rohtix]

When lav said "Why would someone want to be a man? Like trans women are cool but ew trans man?" Isn't that her literally appealing to her own sense of womanhood? Isn't that her internal experience of being a woman speaking? She feels it, she just can't explain it, just like the rest of us.

[@Rohtix]

@@cainification I wasn't even considering sexual orientation I guess. I thought she meant ew as in ew I don't want to be that.

[@Eudaletism]

​@@cainification I think it's likely trans people "really are" the gender they say they are, in a physical neurological sense at the intermediate scale of structure. For example, we know pre-transition trans men (born in female body, still in female body) experience phantom pain at the same 60% rate as born eunuchs, which suggests their somatosensory cortex map has one of the male layouts. Descriptions of palpable dysphoria also bear resemblance to descriptions of body dysmorphia due to head trauma, such as revulsion toward the affected bodypart. Bottom line is, the suffering of dysphoria is probably not something they can psych themselves out of. It's a bit like saying "I don't see why people with migraines need headache pill, they should just accept their situation and learn to be happy about it." The people we're talking about are suffering, and transition as a treatment dramatically improves their lives by their own measure. This results in them being indistinguishable from the opposite sex, which makes tying their identity to their chromosomes socially impractical. So, we switch to treating them socially according to their gender presentation and gender identity rather than their sex. Ultimately we use gender in a "social" sense on the day to day, and a "neurological" sense when talking about dysphoria and transition more clinically. Their condition seems to be in some ways related to the actual gendering of the brain, lending credence to their claims and to the idea of being able to internally sense these particular differences. In addition, the notion of self has changed over the centuries, and these days we think of ourselves as are our minds and brains, rather than our bodies, so it's easy to imagine that a person's mind might vary along a gendered dimension while their body remains the same. This varying of the mind is more important to who you are as a person, and therefore more important to how you should be seen socially, than the particular shape of your body, which is basically just there to carry the brain around. So what I do is I say, okay, I'm going to attach the word "gender" to this dimension of sex-correlated differences in the brain, which makes gender a spectrum, and I'm going to treat people according to what they say their gender is, even if it doesn't match their sex, not because everything they say is right, but because they probably wouldn't be saying that unless there was a good enough chance that they were in some real respect transgender that it becomes best to extend the principle of charity on the matter. It's not just about being nice, it's about epistemic caution.

[@bleu2680]

@@cainification what's the point of a middle ground if it only satisfies your sensibilities and not the people who are actually affected? Just because you, a passive spectator, are limited in your understanding doesn't mean people should conform to it.

[@bleu2680]

@@cainification entirely fair, badly written. I just wanted to know what a "middle ground" is, because we're talking about people's deeply rooted identities, not some casual matter of opinion. Calling for a middle ground if you're not affected by a queer person's choice of affirming their identity just sounds like policing personal expression to me, is what I meant. The issue of people pretending to be what they aren't to get access to certain things is a miniscule issue that pales in comparison to the abuse men are already capable of (e.g they can already go into a women's toilet to abuse someone or go in when no one's looking and hide). - The benefits of letting people live in accordance with their identity are massive, and you can both be pro-affirming queers and have reasoned discussions about legal implications. E.g, just because some negative outcomes are theoretically possible, doesn't mean they're not worth navigating. Lmk if I've missed your point

[@bleu2680]

@@TheMightySilverback_ which is exactly the point - people are panicking about an exaggerated scare-tactic scenario to make lives harder for trans people. Women's bathrooms don't have urinals and a trans person is much less likely to assault a woman (in fact is much more likely to be assaulted) than any other woman (there are statistically more lesbians) or man (they commit most sexual assaults and already have the ability to go into a woman's bathroom to do something harmful)

[@tee4678]

Honestly, Lav did bring up questions that should be asked, but I agree with Destiny. He said it best by saying 'you gotta make sure that what your talking about or asking comes from a place of compassion and not bigotry or hatred'.

[@jokersdemise]

This woman (one of ALL women I love) has "Live. Lav. Love." stenciled somewhere in her house.

[@Abridgelion]

_Live, Lav, Lol_

[@nathantompson4432]

Honestly if I went by Lav I would also have a sign with that on it

[@SaladDongs]

@@nathantompson4432 just be trans dude gender doesn't matter

[@Fjaloeat1]

Ah. The woman who definitely makes it in the streaming world because of her intellect and thoughtful conversations.

[@kaeden109]

Hey, we love women

[@SkeleTonHammer]

Wait, are you telling me that pretty people skate through life without having to develop intellect or a personality? I refuse to believe it

[@jrams4145]

This is such a useless comment

[@christopherwest671]

@@SkeleTonHammer yes and she’s willing to be changed on a lot of her opinions. I think Sneak-o definitely makes more entertaining content, but I feel like most of the same complaints could be leveled at him too. These are our everyman/everywomen - they make a lot of hard claims with soft data and life experiences. Fingers crossed we still get good faith engagement a year from now and we see some good development.

[@ataridc]

can we just be real. dest only talks to her because he wants to bang her. we are safe here

[@Gtarox45]

Very bold of her to talk so much despite knowing so little

[@TheWentzMachine]

It's lav's MO at this point.

[@SmokeyDaBoss420]

only 2 genders simple sadly

[@mikeyTversus]

Yeah, I thought that was just her thing.

[@s3nc3r7]

Because the only arguments she brings to the table are personal opinions/experiences and things she's heard from others, never actual research. Probably an ego thing that her words hold stronger than studies so there's no need or it could just be that she's too lazy to do the research

[@piotrjeske4599]

@@s3nc3r7 and what research do you want use then ? All the research that claimed non binary exists is unfalsifiable in lab testing enviroment. Not to mention the level of term pollution a lot of US psychology gave us in the last two decades. Things that not so long ago were considered to be a mix of narcisistic disorder with schisophrenia (and treatable with medication used for the second one) , are now labled as separate kind of human.

[@platosghost6916]

Lav Logic: "I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings." She might actually be the female version of Sneako the more I think about it...

[@hadesrequiem8639]

Lmfao i agree completely 🤣 it’s insane how they’re brains have rotted in all the same ways but just on opposite ideologies. They literally can only comprehend things in terms of right/left wing trigger words

[@suckit4669]

"I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings." They don't say anything about their feelings, that's the entire point of this, there is not a single women on this planet who can explain how it feels like to be a women, it's all an internalized belief about how a certain gender behaves that makes people become trans.

[@nicholaswalker5053]

Sneako is a radical masculinist and Lav is a radical feminist, both are maybe a tad more open minded than the most extreme points of view on both sides, but they are also both at least somewhat bigoted in their view of the world and others because they have very little introspection and almost no affective empathy. They can understand others feelings logically and mentally if it is explained to them the right way, which is cognitive empathy. But they don’t really have much affective empathy, so they can’t actually feel others emotions themselves, or at least, they struggle to identify it, also because of low levels introspection. Also because of these things they both have a long way to go in terms of having a really developed theory of mind. They aren’t stupid or immature per se, there are people much older and (on paper) perhaps even smarter than they are who are worse. But with that being said, I’m 5 years younger than they are and I’m not anywhere near this vapid and shallow. I’m not the most mature person ever by far but I’m already a good bit past where these two are in the psychological sense

[@wellbutrinwarlock]

If only we could convince Steve to concede that Destiny is, in fact, a girl’s name

[@adolphgracius9996]

But it is a girl name

[@steveng6704]

I know a guy who was unironically named Destiny by his parents.

[@anuko6711]

@@steveng6704 *girl

[@andreas.9175]

stripper girl's name

[@johngleeman8347]

Any guest that makes Destiny flip his lid is always worthwhile.

[@cameron2538]

Lav is a toilet’s name.

[@drewnader1726]

Amazing

[@Jebaskin1]

Lav is unbearable. Destiny is really challenging himself with this relationship.

[@radMisc]

I'm gonna say something very condescending here. Do you ever have that homie who's going through your exact ideological development process, but is like 3 years behind you in the journey, and you can just tell they're gonna wind up with similar conclusions to yours, but there's nothing you can say to fast-track them? I feel like that's what destiny constantly has to go through. Life ain't easy as a boomer

[@nicholaswalker5053]

I don’t find it condescending, I think there are just a lot of people who aren’t as mature as they think, even amongst full blown adults. It’s probably in part due to outdated views on what adulthood and maturity is supposed to be that formed over thousands of years in the past. Views that has only been challenged relatively very recently by new understanding of human psychology and social dynamics, etc. I’m 20 but I’ve had adults tell me all my life that I seem more mature than a lot of adults. I guess you could say I have an old soul. I’ve had strangers who were twice my age tell me that I look way younger than I sound in conversation. A few have told me I sound more like I’m 30, or older, not 20. I’ve seen multiple therapists who have said similar things. Including that I’m so self-aware they literally don’t know how to help me or why I need help. Obviously there are times where I act pretty immaturely still. But especially around strangers who have just met me, or in a professional environment, where I’m putting my best manners forward, and trying to leave good impressions on folks, I get comments like: ‘how are you not rich or famous’, ‘please run for public office’, ‘you should write a book’, etc. I don’t really know what to say to them honestly. It’s done some harm to me too, because now it’s an expectation I place on myself to be that mature and well-developed person all the time. That probably sounds weird, but that’s just a part of how socialization works. I’m privileged in a lot of ways to have come so far on my journey, especially coming out of a rough childhood. But it’s very lonely. I can’t relate to people my age. But it’s hard to be 20 and have more in common with 30 and 40 year olds who have way more life experience. I like Destiny because he thinks similarly to how I do, and it sounds like he had a similar experience growing up. I’m glad there’s at least a few people out there who get it.

[@moon-pw1bi]

i dont find it condescending, but at the same time ideological development progress is kinda subjective. for example i use to be really pro trans but now i think that the gender critical position is just more coherent. i know people who are anti trans but for completely different reasons then i am. i think the line of reasonings and how we get to our positions are more important than just having the same positions as someone else. for example a gender critical gender abolitionist is going to have more in common with a gender abolitionist trans ideologue then a conservative who just hates trans women the same way they would hate feminine men

[@PeninsulaPaintings]

Nope, quite true. I fell down the alt-right pipeline about 5 years ago when my mental health crashed and I was very isolated (pre-pandemic), I spouted all the same crap, got roped in with a sense of community, easy/extreme answers to complicated problems, bias media and loaded language. I climbed out of it about three years ago for multiple reasons, mainly the hypocrisy, double standards and their unfair/uneducated stance on Abortion/Gay rights. My older sister has now currently fallen way down the exact same pipeline, again it happened when her mental health was at its worst (during the pandemic) and she felt isolated. She's now a Trump fan, rabidly anti-vax and has said some very bigoted shit towards LGBTQ+ people and minorities without realising how awful she sounds when she says it. She's a more extreme version of me from 5 years ago. She and I are very different people, so I can only hope she climbs out of it the same way I did - I can't help her here, I've tried. She needs to reach this point herself. I'm worried though, some people fall down there and don't come back.

[@chungbc2914]

Lol I agree with her, I don’t have any internal experience about being a female either. I don’t feel like a female, I feel like a person. What makes somebody feel female? How do you feel female? You just FEEL that you align more with society’s depiction of a woman.

[@LarsMacReady]

Why does your personal experience apply to everyone else? I feel intrinsically feel like a female, so following your logic, your point is invalid.

[@chungbc2914]

@@LarsMacReady How do you intrinsically feel like a female? Which feelings convey that?

[@AlexDestroyerOfEarth]

@@chungbc2914 if they explained it would be a string of stereotypes and they will never come to terms with that.

[@LarsMacReady]

@@chungbc2914 I just do. I wake up and feel feminine when I look at myself in the mirror getting ready for work. Many of my women friends feel the same. So if we are going off of anecdotal evidence, which your original claim of not feeling it was made off of, then I've supplied a counter that follows your logic exactly.

[@livchamps9573]

ask shania twain

[@thepalindromeadept9596]

Latinas are crazy yo. Always a fun time watching 2 Latinas go at it.

[@michaeldromes3948]

As much as I love women, Lav tests me with every sentence

[@milamberyt]

“And a week later, nothing in this conversation mattered or changed Lav’s mind at all.”

[@ataridc]

Pretty sure lav has the mind of a goldfish. She probably went back to her default state 1 minute after this debate

[@Biblig]

"gradually,I began to hate her"

[@snpandsnb1953]

Good because she was right this whole time. Destiny kept using the word "gender" to replace sex or as a different concept depending on what suits him. The reason transgender people exists requires society to be structured for gender to exist. Transsexualism is the correct term that would exist no matter if society had gendered norms.

[@Massivecarcrash]

Lav just seems to have a hard time with realising that her experience of life does not inform the reality and experience of others. Like the debates about porn she had, she cant get past the idea that alot of women and men have positive experiences with porn and sex work. It's all about her personal experience and everyone else is either wrong, brainwashed or delusional.

[@emperortgp2424]

female solipsism disclaimer: I love and respect women

[@TheWentzMachine]

I'm pretty sure I mostly agree with Lav about porn, but probably not for the same reasons. And I'm pretty hesitant to say this mostly because I'm never very sure what Lav actually thinks.

[@wiredvibe1678]

@@TheWentzMachine Lav actually thinks?

[@ataridc]

You just described every privileged person that lacks self awareness on earth

[@harrisonmccoll1093]

Just because you have a positive experience with porn or prostitution does not in any way make it ok. You say that personal experience justifies using porn but then also say that her personal experience is wrong. Very conflicting.

[@handsomebear.]

She isn't even a little bit masculine in her personality :V That's the feminist definition of masculinity, not the actual difference between man and women outside of modern societies. Look at videos of people visiting hunter gatherers and the women are feminine but _absolutely not_ demure(in comparison to the men, outside of actual combat situations) and they _absolutely do not_ accept getting less than the men.

[@ceejay1476]

She is taking WASP culture as if it was the standard for human behavior.

[@SuperDangleDude]

Lav only works when you have MrGirl to yell at her

[@randomedits4172]

Lav is actually desperate to always be the one suffering no matter what 😂

[@AspienWaifu]

Don't forget desperate for constant attention lol but I'm pretty sure they go hand in hand 😆

[@francisxavier8374]

my heart goes out to that brave chatter trying to talk about korea launching a missle over japan

[@AnEnemyAnenome]

I am honestly like 40% there with Lav but then she goes full into the feminist shit and I'm like I can't follow how your brain has a consistent, normal track and then all of a sudden hits a pinball minefield of decade old feminist talking points and phrases

[@Fathom_VT]

Pinball minefield is a perfect way to describe that. These underdeveloped and old talking points are just stuck in people’s head like some sort of internalized trauma. People barely realize they’re being shaped by that thinking.

[@Daniel_Clem]

It's pretty simple, her brain always revolve around how everything should be about her, not be a problem for her privileges and how she feels about those 2 things. She knows she has privilege (for example when she say ''women are a protected class'' at around 50 minutes) and she doesn't like that trans people are ''taking'' her privilege but she isn't able to phrase it in a way that doesn't make her look like she's morally bad, so she just try to go full circle on a bad take and vomit words to try and recuperate.

[@emperortgp2424]

I don't want to lose time and braincells listening to her, is she a terf or something?

[@famalam943]

Trans ‘rights’ shouldn’t step on female rights. She’s 100% right. What is this obsession with old talking points being bad, as if everything has to evolve? Women are protected, and that should never change because people feel it’s ‘old fashioned’

[@Toxodos]

@@Daniel_Clem if only there was a better term for this than "fragility". I'm serious, you're describing what some academics have started to call "white fragility" (in relation to race obv) and that's just a terrible term if you want normal people to listen to what you have to say

[@jokersdemise]

"A girl by any other name would still be Destiny" - Bill Cakes-pier

[@JustinWillhoit]

Destiny: I agree Lav continues ranting and arguing Destiny: yeah I agree Lav goes even harder Destiny (girls name btw): yes. I agree

[@chocolatMouse]

Dude I feel like this is one gigantic troll: I'm hearing all about this cool conversation with that woman from Ukraine and instead a Lav conversation gets uploaded, the person I couldn't be any less interested in.

[@BobBWag]

I like how Destiny started the conversation off asking if they could have a conversation without yelling and he broke that rule within the first 2 minutes of talking to her lol

[@Beowulf002]

Can you blame him

[@eigna8914]

He said she can't y'all...he knew he was going to. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@keaco73]

Someone who says “like” 5x in just about every sentence shouldn’t influence anyone.

[@briannab4770]

I know y'all hate on her, I actually love her. I wanna talk with her.

[@currentcommerce4774]

lav is so uninterested in thinking idk what destiny sees in talking to her. its like trying to argue with a replybot

[@colbyrob4814]

I know EXACTLY what destiny sees in talking to her 😏

[@witheredserenity3183]

She tweeted she would fuck him. Either that's already happened or he's working on it by talking to her lol

[@KumaNicol]

Guys I learned something fucking wild from this. It’s 2022 guys, it’s 2022. Thank god she was here to tell me.

[@Direktorhkbergdahl]

Destiny: ”no screaming please” Destiny 3 minutes later: screams over Lav about how you don’t feel like a human Also he has a lady name.

[@BlankVuoto]

Don't let her distract you that Destiny is a woman name.

[@mr.miyagee5761]

The real question is at what point do you cross the line from sane to insane?

[@Abridgelion]

Usually when one logs in.

[@yungbeef8444]

Sometime during your visit to the informed consent clinic

[@-47-]

About five sentences into any Lav debate

[@lydiawilder5996]

Whenever people start to make you mildly uncomfortable.

[@conehead4133]

Lav is sometimes really frustrating an annoying to listen to but no the less I want her to continue having discussions. Disappointed in how everyone is just giving in and saying fuck Lav she’s intolerable. There are much harder conversations to be had than Lav.

[@grimtrix]

I think it is strange that we decided that things like... wearing a dress, playing with Barbie dolls, liking pink, cooking, etc... are considered ACTUAL traits of woman... and that gender being connected to sex is considered the social construct. These seem exactly backwards to me.

[@HasturFGC]

Lav probably had the starting stats to be a decent intellectual as a kid, but she pivoted into a different path for fun and now she’s trying to respec too late in life.

[@iz2333]

It's never too late to respec. Though I guess most 90 year olds don't change their mind about much anymore but your cognitive processes are always subject to change!

[@christianrojas3372]

God I really don’t like her shes the embodiment of stubborn and wouldn’t stay on one idea makes listening to this conversation very hard and we love her random quirky disassociation when presented with a point she can’t argue against 🤪 Also “profiling can keep you safe” 🤨 wym by that

[@yungbeef8444]

Profiling is fucked up, but also we must carefully identify any white person's unconscious biases and make sure to test them to make sure they don't harbor any views that fall in line with "whiteness" based on what we believe to be harmful 😇👌

[@tiktokexposed898]

I'm sayin when she went on her rant about profiling is a good thing and you can be transracial I was done

[@supersniffer9632]

How many more centuries until we all collectively understand that telling an entire group they hate themselves is an Unimaginablly hateful thing to believe.

[@ZennZennster]

She seems like the type of person who made up their mind when they were 16 and hasn't challenged their ideas since.

[@morgenmuffel5747]

I’m assuming that this woman only has online relevance because she is attractive? Or is she a gaming savant of some form?

[@TheSyntaxE]

she is actually a decent singer/song writer

[@morgenmuffel5747]

@@TheSyntaxE Thanks for the info. Had a quick perusal of her music. Being charitable, she strikes me as a diluted Lana del Ray - not the best of places to start. The output is serviceable, but the music, voice, and lyrics in combination are largely unremarkable and fairly banal, lacking a unique point of view or any significant depth. That said, good on her for hustling and leveraging her looks to achieve a career

[@ataridc]

@@TheSyntaxE """"song writer"""""

[@JJTooQuick]

@@TheSyntaxE OMEGALUL

[@MrEnderC]

@@morgenmuffel5747 MLADY

[@luckartist]

I guess unpopular opinion, i thought this talk was pretty good. Destiny got mad a few times, girl was pretty fun. Also Destiny made really good arguments, which i might steal in the future. But the girl was fun, for sure. Destiny made some smart and thought out points. Oh and the girl was pretty fun.

[@AntonAdelson]

What's the Factorio mod he's playing? It looks good!

[@goldhuntar1178]

lav hurts my brain to listen to

[@JourneysEnd]

This convo needed more mr.girl

[@Jimbo5900]

based

[@Sheerspeechcraft]

Exactly. I'm not sure if he'd be willing to talk to Lav again, but it would be interesting to see a convo between them about trans stuff.

[@RanEncounter]

Not really. It would just devolve to a meta conversation.

[@afrochikkin]

Mr Girl would just say exactly all the same shit he has already said many times. It's fine that he has the same opinion across multiple conversations but I don't know why I'd want to listen to him repeat himself

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

No conversation ever needs mr.girl.

[@Bodorio]

I don't really get his reasoning. Every step of the way he's just describing the things we've heard a million times before, theres no real arguments against her very valid points.

[@dolph3578]

I don’t get the lav hate. I think its good content. Its a refreshing change of pace when the debate isn’t so structured and people are willing to be/ admit when they are inconsistent so their worldview frameworks aren’t immutable. And she and destiny have some good banter. I don’t think it’s the most enjoyable to always have logic driven conversations. Something beautiful and human to connect in messy ways.

[@dm8068]

I agree This conversation is much more casual

[@podrickfookinpayne2329]

I actually kind of agree with people not having some internal sense of gender. People who identify as non binary and have no body disphoria seem to just have issues with gender norms and self image to me. Maybe I’m wrong, but in any case Lav is the last person who should take a stand on this.

[@betterthanrae8137]

"why are people calling me transphobic? i just want people to do whatever makes my tummy feel better, im not an expert or anything, but everybody just do what i want"

[@trizzybones]

I got excited when I read the title, clicked on it, then realized it's a debate with Lav. Nevermind.

[@Homesick47]

She can't make the attempt to realize other ppl have different experiences lol That's literally it With every argument she has It all leads back to the same MO No perspective whatsoever It's like a teenager in middle school who makes every single thing that happens to them feel like the world is fina end

[@darkfeign]

Lav with another "gender doesn't exist" but ending with "I really love being a woman, being a woman is so cool!"

[@MrDezokokotar]

By woman she means female. That statement makes perfect sense if you assume woman = female.

[@MezMez]

I like being white. That doesn't mean there's an internal feeling of being white.

[@whitewolf674]

see alot of mocking of lav, while I agree. I think that the fact that she is able to concede points and not be ignorant about her stance makes her a less frustrating guest than most of destiny's debates. I feel like she understands she is not the smartest but does try to be open about topics which makes her an interesting guest.

[@sargeteg5927]

Being able to make concessions is without a doubt a good trait and not that common in the online space but I think it's the path the viewers have to endure to finally get there that makes it so painful.

[@baba_tdog1071]

Concession until the next conversation about this topic and she's in the exact same spot lol

[@c00ki3IIIm0n5t3r]

But she does really concede anything, she'll just jump from point so much no one can keep track, and end up right back at the start.

[@NeoRetroX]

Lav is 100% correct about the experience of gender, if I would wake up as a woman tomorrow, It would be inconvenient but I would just continue living. Perhaps I would be a lesbian but I wouldn’t care, because I don’t think about my gender ever ^^ I’m just me, and I would assume most people perceive themselves as just themselves.

[@Lucaserik]

I mean it’s hard to know how I would react

[@NeoRetroX]

@@Lucaserik I have serious doubt a healthy adult would go through body altering surgery and look trans, even if they switched bodies. But just kinda live with it.

[@Lucaserik]

@@NeoRetroX I feel like it's such a hard things to speculate about, like how would I want my friends and family to treat me, because I definitely think that would change with my gender. Like I get what you are saying, but it feels like such an abstract argument

[@ceejay1476]

What about if you were to wake up tomorrow and everyone treated you like a woman, but you were still a man? What would the reaction be?

[@lonsiah7672]

@@ceejay1476 i get what you’re trying to say here, that trans people are seen as the gender they’re not blah blah blah, so you’re asking that person how they’d feel if the same was done to them. but it makes no sense because seeing someone as a woman when they have a female body is absolutely reasonable but starting to treat a man as a woman when he’s visibly male makes no sense. your comparison doesn’t work

[@Mr_Pickles_]

Lav never engages in good conversations. It’s incredibly rare for her to say anything that isn’t absolute brain rot. It’s never worth the watch.

[@ibejerdan]

"I can fix her"

[@bez5297]

"what does it mean to feel like a human?" the correct response is "you can't feel like a human, it's not a feeling, you just are"

[@degla232]

@@diegoseba12 Thers a difference between feeling like a human and defining what is a human. You fowl

[@degla232]

@@testcase6997 Is it so hard to understand that you can feel a certain way about being a female/male but you cant feel being a male/female?

[@degla232]

​@@testcase6997 im not the same guy you were asking but do you know what a feeling is ? and how feelings and emotions intertwine.

[@degla232]

@@testcase6997 do you want me to wiki it or do you wanna engage in the conversation?

[@degla232]

@@testcase6997 did you like my bonus meme thoe ?

[@NycroLP]

Please please tell me you will upload the conversation with the ukraine girl. She deserves to be in the main channel way more than that tiktoker.

[@PurpleColonel]

That bit about how "Oh its just internalized misogyny" annoyed me a lot. People always try to link their problems to other people's problems all the way back to one big problem that we just have to get rid of all at once to enter a utopia. Lav had bad sex work experiences so her worldview revolves around patriarchy. The number of times she gets stunlocked by the contradictions in her own opinions is insane. It's great that she seems willing to learn though and I hope she takes away critical thinking skills from this stuff

[@thegamingkitchen8429]

Because its an excuse..

[@ignotuscapillary8313]

As someone who doesn't really know who Lav is, I found myself agreeing (in a sense) with some of her points, but I wanted to disagree with her purely out of principle of how fecking annoying she is.

[@nge1301]

I've been on a Destiny debate binge lately, and this is the first time I'm seeing what I consider a big L for Destiny. I'd never seen such weak arguments coming from him. The core of the discussion was the question his opponent made at 21:40, "what does feeling like a female mean?", which essentially translates to the deeper question of "what is gender identity?". I believe Destiny wasn't able to answer that question satisfactorily and he danced around the question quite embarrassingly. Like the entire analogy at around ~43:00, just to get across the simplistic point of "men and women have different behaviors, therefore there must be something (immaterial and indefinable) inside them that produces these differences, and that's gender" He didn't even attempt to define WHAT is that innate perception of gender (again, the core of the discussion) and he didn't address the possibility of all those differences in behavior steming from 1. biological sex differences and 2. socially attributed gender roles. Lav's framework for thinking about gender (which I think is super sensible) is that "man" and "women" (how we define these words and think about these groups) just boils down to those two factors. Biology and society. Nature AND nurture. Destiny didn't even seem to unserstand that point in order to formulate a rebuttal, and instead he tried to argue for the existence of some innate property that he couldn't even define (Lav rightfully called him out for arguing for the existence of a "soul" of something similarly mystical). In addition to all that, the weakness of his arguments here made it more clear how dirty some of his debate tactics are (like plain shouting over his opponent when the convo isn't going his way)

[@tok1879]

And the analogy of the 1lb labeled boxes would be more apt if it were the boxes that self reported as 3lb or 5lb

[@superexplosive]

I think a big roadblock in these conversations is that gender as a concept, gender as an experience, and gender as an expression are all wrapped up as one thing- despite being quite different in the way they are internally/externally determined and influenced.

[@beewest5704]

Why I wish the trans community would break gender stereotypes but all they do is entrench it. I have heard to many say I'm z woman cause I like pink & dresses. If stereotypes are broken. Ppl can just be themselves without having to box themselves into man & women & nonbinary.

[@punishedbarca761]

"I'm not transphobic" 2 seconds later "It's an aberration" 🤔

[@icantpursuewhatimtrulypass7335]

I think she just phrased that badly, she seems to think about it being the wrong answer to people with some serious problems. Wouldn’t necessarily call that transphobic, just skeptical

[@Daniel_Clem]

She always goes back to the ''it's a women's right'' or ''it's because of misogyny'' (and ''women are a protected class'' in this discussion). Her problem is not that she doesn't believe in trans people, it's that she doesn't like that ''men'' can get the same privileges she gets as a women. It make her feelings of entitlement and privileges not real, but she can't pinpoint that it's the problem (or doesn't want to because it make her a moraly bad person).

[@Delkesss]

But this conversation was like entirely about her issues with female to male/nonbinary? Did we not watch the same video?

[@RyanPhoenixAZ]

I have a feeling that you didn't pay attention to the video. You got stuck on 1 or 2 points that she made and you think that was her entire stance

[@kauswekazilimani3736]

@@Delkesss He probably did. Their comment just made them comfortable.

[@c00ki3IIIm0n5t3r]

@@Delkesss what are you on aboutm the conversation wasn't about anything in particular, she kept jumping from one point to another endlessly like that one Fall Guys game mode lmao

[@Mrraerae]

@@Delkesss she called being trans a delusion and a mental illness multiple times, my dude. She wasn't just talking about non-binary

[@thespyer2k]

Destiny really thinks there is no money to be made in trans surgeries???

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Compared to any other set of procedures, medication, injuries? Yeah, it is an extremely tiny subset of the population that would qualify for such procedures, an even small amount who can afford it.

[@diegoseba12]

There isn't.

[@kauswekazilimani3736]

More money in diabetes.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

@@fifiadan All those teachers and Social Workers really making big bucks huh? Hell throw soldiers in there as well. There are people who dedicate their lives to benefitting the world without the need of vast compensation. And thankfully we have laws about providing care to people even if it only costs the hospital money.

[@HarshYadav-ne3oy]

I am so confused, I feel like I listened to this video and I have left with more confusion than actually understanding and learning something or anything. Also why she throwing around words like facism and other words even though they do not make sense with the context. I am truly confused

[@AimEe-gv7ye]

Lav is so unintentionally funny its insane

[@bekaht9185]

I really appreciate the patience and restraint you showed in this video. This one was hard to listen to but very eye opening.

[@MultiHogleg]

As a trans woman myself I really wish there was a way to telepathically explain to people like her how amazing transition is for people like me. It's a relief and a joy more than anything I can compare it to

[@triplemoyagames4195]

I don't wanna be offensive, but can you explain to me? I genuinely want to understand this, like how old were you when you transitioned? Based of my understanding of Trans people, it originates from Gender dysphoria, which I interpret as a mental illness (Which has nothing to do with your competence or intelligence), and I am still hesitant to fully support transitioning as the solution for everyone. So can you explain what that feeling was like? So I can understand better

[@crocrox2273]

As long as you don't bother people that want to have nothing with you

[@memsysr]

Do you cope about never achieving a proper orgasm anymore?

[@WetBoy]

You aren't a woman you aren't a woman you aren't a woman

[@WetBoy]

@@triplemoyagames4195 be offensive, we have to save him from himself.

[@Pandalius]

After a while, the constant shifting to new points feels like I'm hitting a concrete wall ever thirty seconds

[@Jrez]

I love how Destiny has to come in and "fix" everyone's arguments when an incorrect person is making the rounds and nobody can be logical during debates.

[@cipherenigma]

I'm attempting to be as considerate as possible. Considering her lack of knowledge on every issue they focus on, she exudes confidence.

[@zayajars]

People who say they prefer Lav over Britney in conversations are outta their mind lmao

[@dickjohnson8983]

At least lav is hot. Incredibly stupid but hot

[@sneakerprojects241]

You can’t say you feel like a woman if you don’t know what it feels like to be the opposite and vice-versa so I believe she’s right

[@Gtarox45]

Lav be like “I’m not transphobic” and then proceeds to go on a transphobic one hour rant

[@MegaFIare]

Lol so transphobic

[@chpgmr1372]

They didnt work so hard to exist as women, they worked so hard to be treated equal. The whole point of freedom is so YOU can choose whats right for YOU.

[@thegamingkitchen8429]

Women like Lav is the reason why sneako and fresh and fit exist. For every extreme there is one to meet it

[@xavi1298]

the fact she was actually on a sneako stream 😭

[@christopherismusicallyinclined]

She called Sneak BASED

[@Angel-hm9lr]

August uploading this video instead of the Ukrainian girl is a miss play

[@mBUSHattack]

Queen Terf who's totally not a Terf (but is also 100% a Terf?), a classic guest to have on again 🥴

[@adamarzo559]

Terf is the only way forward, as a trans woman cannot possibly be a woman, biologically speaking. Just as I cannot identify as a sperm whale.

[@colbyrob4814]

Don’t forget to add men hating into the mix

[@abstractsymmetricity]

Odd that a bunch of terfs follow and worship Destiny, someone who is very pro Trans.

[@emperortgp2424]

@@colbyrob4814 Adding that is redundant, the basis of terf ideology rests on every man being a deprived, inhuman, ontologically evil monster.

[@3libras903]

She’s not really extreme enough to be a terf

[@aguspuig6615]

33:55 im from spain and no its absolutely not common, within families yeah, you give a kiss to the cheek to say goodnight and at any point to show affection no matter if youre a man or a woman, but that tendency to have zero physical contact between men unless its an ultra emotional moment were you shed the single manly tear and give a quick and awkward hug is definetly present in spain like it is in most other places. Its kinda like scotish men wearing kilts wich are basically skirts, it doesnt make them more femenine its something very clearly cultural

[@BrendanishLeo]

lav: spits out almost every terf point also lav: profiling is ok also also lav: its fucked up people calling me a terf

[@tiktokexposed898]

What's a terf?

[@brainfood]

but can he convince her that Destiny isn't a woman's name?

[@Divison1GeneralDarui]

Certainly hasn’t convinced me 🤔

[@stelchipz6932]

Lav might b annoying with wrong opinions but she's got way more personality than allot of others that have been on stream lately. Plus she's pretty hot. Bring Lav back

[@_synthicyde]

Lav: I think we shouldn't let children transition Also Lav: Except for trans women I could talk about this for two hours

[@dododu3412]

Well, the argument was pretty solid. I don't really see the problem.

[@rodiculous9464]

@@dododu3412 the problem is its completely wrong

[@rangerofalinos]

@@dododu3412 nothing to lose, just multiple years in a body that feels not your own. While female puberty starts generating female body traits just as a man’s does. It being easier to pass later doesn’t mean suffering should occur. And if that girl wanting to be a man develops large breasts, wide hips etc they may now have to seek excessive surgery to pass as male. Instead of suppressing those as well. Which means more trauma, and maybe the unaliving that occurs is a result of the 5 years being told you can’t transition creating a fucked mental space that the late transition is too late to work against. Especially if in the course of being babysat while being told to wait, they do things that leave long term marks and signs of that trauma.

[@PussyWillowFairy]

@@dododu3412 Well, one problem is that, if adolescents are started on puberty blockers early enough, it can stunt the development of their genitalia. And for transwomen, having a vaginoplasty means needing plenty of flesh downstairs to turn inside out & stitch together. So, if there is not enough genital skin, then grafts have to be harvested from other parts of the body. For example, colon grafts can be used bc they don’t shrink. However, one complication of colon vaginoplasty is bowel obstruction. Besides the fact that our gonads produce most of our sex hormones & our endogenous sex hormones support our other organs (e.g. brain, pancreas, heart), so a trans adolescent will become a life-long patient blah, blah, blah…

[@PussyWillowFairy]

@@rangerofalinos Transmen need “excessive” surgery anyway. Many of them have to get hysterectomies bc testosterone atrophies their female genitalia & puts them at risk of sepsis. Hysterectomies have been linked to increased risk of dementia & I don’t think that’s going to do wonders for their mental health either. Plus, phalloplasties require multiple surgeries (&, sometimes, multiple corrective surgeries bc of urethral complication rates).

[@wren4077]

Oh my god why Lav. I was expecting the Ukrainian girl. Anastasia?

[@thisisaname2250]

"I'm wearing this cause it's comfortable." RIGHTTTTTTTT

[@ThankYouStayedHere]

The more i hear Lav, the more i miss MrGirl

[@lunaloveless7234]

The examples destiny gave are 100% external socialization factors actually. There's so much research on this and the brain we don't really understand to determine that it's actually influencing us like that. We are making moves in that area though. However there are tons of studies that prove the efficacy of of nurture and how much it impacts kids. Most of our personality is determined by 5 so a lot of the more in grained stuff happens there.

[@amazin7006]

You are correct, idk how lav didn't think of this obvious counter. We see this with race as well

[@handsomebear.]

Her brain has feminist sized holes in it which are filled with man hating, conspiratorial theories that makes it completely impossible for her to have an independent/exploratory/curious thought of her own. *shudders*

[@KarlieStarrSings]

If there's one thing I can actually agree with Lav on, it's that Starfire is DEFINITELY a better name than Clara

[@haterdesaint]

I don't like her at all

[@romualdaskuzborskis]

I am starting to feel that the (non) gender question is more linguistic than mental. Somehow cultures with out neutral gender in their language does not have such need for mental expression of "non binary".

[@TheRedHaze3]

I don't know how he hasn't hit on this before, but there really doesn't seem to be an *internal* feeling of gender. Destiny has talked about this before, but it seems like there are two types of 'gender dysphoria'. There is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they feel there are certain societal expectations put upon them that they don't meet. Like if they're a transwoman and they are good at sports and they aren't very tough or aggressive (and have no desire to be that way). *That is external.* If this person were raised in a vacuum, they would not feel this, because it comes solely from the expectations of others not matching their self-image. This is gender, but since it is external, it is not an internal feeling of gender. Because gender is, in the end, a social construct. Then there is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they look in the mirror, at their own body. Like if they're a transman and they have an hourglass figure. *This is not gender.* It is your sex. It is how your body was created. Where is the *internal* feeling of gender? I would say it doesn't exist. I would say that there is your biological sex, which is internal, and there is gender, which is external (how others perceive you). I mean, we didn't even have words for this shit until a few decades ago. Gender and sex were synonyms. Woman meant 'adult human female'.

[@null6955]

gender has always just been the social aspect of our sex. the first point you bring up is why terfs like jk rowling have somewhat of a point, how can we be sure *some* trans men aren't transitioning because of social stigmas against women performing typically masculine activities or behaving in ways society deems masculine?

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@fifiadan Yes you would still see differences between men and women, but that is not an expression of gender, that is merely natural trends in personality that we see in men and women. After all, emotional men are still men, and logical women are still women. What separates men who aren't masculine (tough, dominant, logical, etc) from transwomen who are? Nothing, other than self-identification and the aforementioned gender dysphoria. So again I say: there is no *internal* feeling of gender.

[@igotbandTHEFROG]

how about 90% of the population that doesn't think about it and just lives normally lol

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@testcase6997 I don't really care if scientists disagree with me about shit they have no evidence for, but do they even disagree? It's not like I'm denying gender dysphoria exists. Your comment is so ironic. "Someone who just busts into conversations you know nothing about" That seems to be exactly what you're doing.

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@testcase6997 ??? I'm just someone who's critical of the left's current understanding of gender, because it doesn't make any fucking sense. I'm guessing you think that if we start thinking too hard about this stuff, we will end up invalidating trans people and gender dysphoria or something. Don't have much confidence in your beliefs, do you?

[@cogsworther1639]

This whole debate can be summarized briefly: Destiny: "Let's consider X -> Y -> Z" Lav: "What you say makes sense, but there are also annoying people online who say X -> Y -> Z, so I have no choice but to disagree on principle"

[@TheBludgeoningEffect]

I think this chick treats gender like temperature. You don't really "feel" a temp when you're relaxed in a room-temp area, but you will start to feel it if you get too hot or too cold. This seems to indicate to me a thought process that's rooted more in intuition and feeling than logic, skepticism, or empirics.

[@beewest5704]

That why I think its not possible for me to feel like a man when I am a woman but it is possible to feel uncomfortable as a woman & thus think I will feel better as a man. That's why we have many detransitioners. They realize they are just uncomfortable.

[@charlesblasini2134]

Her idea of conversion therapy is literally "Bro, just don't be sad anymore"

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

The comment section has been the worst part of this Destiny arc. This is one of the more interesting videos he has had recently and the comments are just righty losers saying "women make me want to be misogynistic." Or the conservative standard of just decrying academia for being wrong because they disagree with the commenters.

[@rockbark2137]

True, but I think that's the idea. Would any rightoids have even listened to this talk 6 months ago?

[@dangli-sac4053]

There is insane amount of profits to be and being made by the medical community performing surgeries and providing therapy and so forth. Trans people themselves aren't profiting, sure, with the exceptions of the mouthpieces, so they couldnt have been willed into existence based on profit, but the trend can absolutely be pushed for profit motives by the medical community, and they are 100% doing so.