Destiny FINALLY Debates Dillahunty, Gets Stumped w/ Hardest Question In Existence

[@Whittzard]

This is so much better than all the streamer drama. Actual good faith debates are so interesting to watch.

[@mancho1691]

Its hard to find people like this ngl. I hope they talk again in the future.

[@zaktilzer5130]

Ill take this over drama any day. Ill take 3 hour lav talks over Richard Wolfe

[@Mrguy-ds9lr]

I no. Sometimes I think Steven waists so much time playing high school games. I think thats why alot of the bigger politics guys don't take him seriously. I'm not gonna deny I get caught up in it, but then I realize how stupid it is. A soap opera drama. Waist of a good mind .

[@drdavinsky]

Just debunked Richard Spencer on race and iq in my recent video

[@dpax2195]

@@drdavinskythat sounds like something we needed 3-4 years ago. Why not cover more recent asshats?

[@harveyweir8061]

PLEASE have him back on stream to do more and longer debates! this and the debate with the theology professor are the best, most educational and reasonable content youve done

[@drdavinsky]

Just debunked Richard Spencer on race and iq in my recent video

[@jameswhitaker4357]

Who’s the theology professor?

[@neildepressedtyson540]

But LAV and DAN and REM and ABA and MR METOKUR are in chat!!!!

[@nintendo2000]

@@jameswhitaker4357 gordon menzies

[@Bububixby]

Nah he is a little boring outside of religious debates.

[@jaredquaglieri3731]

>Completely unironic, civil debate on 2024's most complex topics >The chat is just a hurricane of Pepe and Soyjack

[@georgelyddane8283]

lmfao

[@NickSklias]

We've wanted to see Destiny v. Dillahunty for ages. Kudos to Modern-Day Debate for facilitating this epic match-up.

[@drdavinsky]

Don’t let this distract you from the fact Destiny is running from our debate after blocking me on Twitter

[@someporter]

Don’t let this distract you from the fact that Destiny is a girls name

[@ZeGuyFly]

True, I soy'ed out hard when I saw this lineup

[@chadingram6390]

I wanna see them team up, maybe they can even throw a bone to the good Dr above and make him look silly if that's what he really wants

[@Lt.BunnyGirl]

Oh! This was modern day debates? Fantastic work MDD!

[@markfelt5650]

jesus christ it's nice to see a good faith disagreement where two people are willing to say, "i'm sorry let me clarify," or "oh yeah, i misunderstood you," or how Matt even started with, "And to see if I might be wrong." It's just such better content than two people trying to "win"

[@faismasterx]

Sure it's nice to see but remember that they mostly agree with each other on fundamentals. Get two people together who don't fundamentally agree on core issues and you'll be lucky to have it be as civil as this.

[@markfelt5650]

You weren't able to infer that I already knew that by the inflection of my comment? Wild... @@faismasterx

[@faismasterx]

@@markfelt5650 Words on a screen can have inflection? What? lol

[@markfelt5650]

Of course they can. Look at the usage of "lol" in your previous comment. You used the common acronym "lol" in order to denote your inflection by writing that you are literally vocalizing laughter out loud. Essentially, tone and inflection mean the same thing within communication. Albeit, tone is generally for speaking and writing with inflection generally being relegated to speech. But if you wanted to focus on being a pedant - go off I guess. @@faismasterx

[@faismasterx]

@@markfelt5650 Honest question, are you on the spectrum?

[@DF-we4pt]

The quality of this conversation is incredibly high. Amazing hearing Destiny debate someone who is actually intelligent and principled, versus the low quality thinkers Destiny usually debates on his own channel. More like this, please

[@poadude]

I’d rather hear him call [redacted] a [redacted] [redacted]

[@drdavinsky]

Don’t let this distract you from the fact Destiny (manlet) is running from our debate after blocking me on Twitter

[@darestone3335]

Matt is brilliant. He is one of the smartest people in this space I'd say.

[@william4996]

So far I'm 3/4 the way in and the discussion has been "I don't care about the moral argument." And then Destiny arguing the morals of it. So it's definitely not a mud slinging drama fest but I don't feel like the conversation has been all that high quality, honestly. This discussion has taken 20x longer than it could have been.

[@amazin7006]

@@darestone3335 tbh doesn't seem that smart, seems like a great speaker who has homed his arguments. However, I'm 7 minutes in and there's already a huge hole in his argument. Theres no fundamental difference between bodily autonomy and labor autonomy, yet a parent isn't allowed to abandon their child for death? You cannot recind consent after creating a life, you can't choose to not use your body to labor for your child, because that child never consented to exist. Edit: It takes until 25:00 for Destiny toncounter him with this argument and he gets stumped lol

[@michaeldromes3948]

Kinda trippy seeing them both in the same room. I grew up watching Dillahunty and then slowly transitioned to watching Destiny without ever even imagining they would ever interact with each other. It's like my teenage years and present day mixing up.

[@westingtyler1]

yes, this has those strange MCU crossover vibes. Dillahunty and Destiny. the closest thing i saw before was when Kyle Kulinksi debated Destiny on Destiny's stream about free trade v protectionism. (imo Destiny won.)

[@Cheesesteakfreak]

"transition" to Destiny??

[@joeysantoro4835]

@@Cheesesteakfreak we just started to prefer watching people with girl's names.

[@TheBlackDeath3]

Same here. Watched a lot of Dillahunty with TAE during my university years, before I even knew who Destiny was (and perhaps before _anybody_ knew who he was).

[@mihailmilev9909]

@@joeysantoro4835 girls of color*

[@blackwolfe638]

"I don't give a sh*t what sells better, I care about what's right" -- Best statement in the video.

[@ssppo4703]

inane tough guy shit

[@lindenstromberg6859]

That's pretty much the point that wins the debate for him. I don't think Destiny ever took the high ground after that. Because democracy doesn't function without a bill of rights and freedoms. Otherwise it's tyranny of the masses.

[@zakpodo]

Except he spends the whole duration saying that he doesn't care about the ethics of what's right and is interested in the legality.... Right around 37 minutes he says he doesn't give a shit about morality.

[@xenophiliuslovegood6914]

​@@zakpodo You're misrepresenting there. He said: "with body autonomy, I don't give a shit about morality" Which holds up. If you're saying that people have body autonomy, it doesn't matter what's moral or immoral, it's saying that people have rights to their bodies and how they're used. If body autonomy is accepted as a right, the morality doesn't affect that right. Is it immoral to not donate blood? Is it immoral not to do living organ donations? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter. It's your body, and you have the right to decide how it is used.

[@zakpodo]

@@xenophiliuslovegood6914 it is a blatant self contradiction. I actually agree with him on a lot, but it's a cheap tactic to try to play both sides; simultaneously claiming to not be interested in the morality discussion but dropping the indignant chestnut that he's only interested in what's right at an opportune moment. What is what is right? It's what is in accord with an ethic or morality. Whether on an individual or societal level, it's a moral claim. Which he's not interested in...

[@bewarned8236]

So good to see Destiny in a conversation with someone, actually finding common ground, and picking at each other when they disagree, picking each others brains. We need more of THIS.

[@jd8184]

THIS

[@busylivingnotdying]

It is a relief to see intellectuals taking rationality as far as they can. It is a beautiful thing to watch" However, the frustrating conversations with people who haven't reach rationality yet, MUST BE DONE nonetheless! We cannot just consider a large part of society a "lost cause" (in a democracy) since they VOTE, right?

[@andrewfrank7222]

Matt is correct. Destiny and others are trying, but cannot come up with a solution to tyranny over the pregnant female. Debates won't solve this. Better science can. Want to save fetuses ?? Invent a machine for carrying them to term without forcing your will on human females.

[@secretseasauce]

An actual intellectual conversation without someone crying and back peddling for 3 hours. My day has been made

[@lampad4549]

Yeah just bad arguments being made.

[@heymelon]

Glad you enjoy both of the types of content the D man does. One of which he does a lot more of and get most of his views from. I'll let you guess which one.

[@peewee130946]

@@lampad4549none of the arguments are bad you just disagree. Just because you disagree with an argument doesn’t make it bad. That just makes you a partisan hack.

[@MrGgabber]

@@peewee130946 They aren't strong arguments, just by definition. Countless exceptions, vague standards, open ended moral quandaries (the drinking while pregnant). Just judging by strength of argument, it's poor at best.

[@peewee130946]

@@MrGgabber countless exceptions- literally no neither of them really had many exceptions at all. There was no vague standards one guy standard is conciseness and the other is extreme bodily autonomy neither is vague they are clear and precise. Open ended moral quandaries that argument is so vague I barely no wtf you’re talking about. If you are talking about drinking while pregnant specifically then yeah no shit it’s open ended because and destiny explained why. The arguments on both sides where very strong and most importantly very consistent. So again if you disagree that’s ok but to say the arguments are bad is bad faith.

[@LoudWaffle]

It's almost unbelievable hearing a good-faith debate where each participant is truly trying to understand each other's, and their own, positions to the best degree possible.

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

Sorry, but Destiny is not “listening” to Matt - he is just waiting for his turn so he can cite random references and Gish gallop.

[@justjim9763]

@@4Mr.Crowley2 I’m not getting that from this debate. Can you reference where destiny is lying? Or where is he throwing half truths? Otherwise I cannot see your argument.

[@matttttttttttttt685]

Destiny is Hillary Clinton on Adderall.

[@kipz]

@@4Mr.Crowley2 can you link some timestamps on that?

[@theluchakabuto5206]

@@4Mr.Crowley2 If that is how you view Destiny approaching this conversation, who would you cite as examples of debaters who don't use this approach? so I can see the difference?

[@neildodsworth48]

Properly one of the best debates I have ever listened to, never mind a subject like this. Provided extra clarity on my position which is all one could ever hope for. Thank you.

[@luposX]

all these live debates destiny does recently, are so much better than the online arguments.

[@DrLinden]

@@KennedyIvy true, but live debates can get pretty heated too

[@bigcrackrock]

Neither one of them even brought up what happens if you get pregnant by a shark.

[@jamesbarnett6772]

@@bigcrackrock This is easy. This phenomenon led directly to the creation of the song baby shark do do do do do. Which caused a great amount of harm in society, therefore it's amoral.

[@ericmccall3415]

@@jamesbarnett6772 dude… so effin annoying. But amoral means it had no moral bearing, I think you mean immoral.

[@Nihm420]

Love watching two good faith debaters having a conversation.

[@mattreef3379]

i am not sure that guy has an open mind tho. Seemed like he was pre stubborn

[@smashmusique]

hardest question timestamp?

[@aSSGoblin1488]

two hwyte males talking about aborting a bebe

[@seanmatthewking]

Matt doesn't Iike faith Two good REASON debaters* 👍 😁

[@unclegruber5703]

Good faith? "I don't consider personhood in this discussion so that's irrelevant" is good faith?

[@eric1scooby]

This actually made my brain feel good. So many debates get lost in the weeds and no actual conversational progress occurs. I enjoy both of these individuals!

[@TehTip]

Its just so refreshing seeing two people with different views have a discussion like this.

[@Khyrid]

Are they both not godless atheists?

[@TehTip]

@@Khyrid What is your point? Their views are still different. You could ask aswell "aren't they both human beings?". Still wouldn't change a thing about my statement.

[@Khyrid]

@@TehTip Don't worry, I'm just being silly

[@realguy7808]

​@Khyrid im gonna kiss you 💋

[@kebabfoto]

Damn Dillahunty, that was a loong time ago, the atheist experience was one of my first introductions to debate content.

[@nuanceblacksywin4868]

One of the original debate-bros!

[@alexander4566]

Was my first as well makes me feel old seeing how different he looks now

[@yarpenzigrin1893]

And then he fell for all the feminist BS and went braindead. Yeah, the Bible is a fairytale. That's the easiest puzzle to figure out. You're not special.

[@MrSmith0128]

I bet he could "beat" Destiny on somthing they truly disagree with. He just has too much experience. Hell, I agree with him on the bodily autonomy viewpoint.

[@Arturo-Chacon]

Me too!

[@kjelladrian3205]

A very decent and productive debate where the participants show mutual respect for each other. This is how it should be done, when the opponents actually are listening to each other and learn from each other.

[@dangerpea108]

Greatest pet peeve of these debates as much as i love them is not giving the audience microphones when they ask questions.

[@LabrnMystic]

At least have a moderator who can repeat the question with a microphone

[@Steventrafford]

This is content I love. This debate wasn’t about winning, it was about trying to be correct. This was fascinating and better at promoting thought than typical debate bro content.

[@DjZephy]

They agree on the issue they're discussing though, so why are you worshiping them for that

[@Steventrafford]

@@DjZephy worship? I’ll leave that for the delusional god botherers. I just respect the fact the agree and still challenge each others position to test the voracity of argument. More productive that debating talking points or watching idiots get taken apart.

[@Uhdksurvhunter]

@@DjZephy They agree on the end result, sure, but there is still value to be had in figuring out what makes you get to that end result. And they both differ quite a bit in that regard.

[@Reclaimer77]

@@Uhdksurvhunter I'm an atheist so I respect Dillahunty. However I also lean pro-life. As things like "rights" are simply a humanistic construct, I found it extremely concerning how Dillahunty dismissed the fetal personhood issue altogether by way of cobbling together a poorly reasoned statement that the "fetus doesn't have the "right" to use your body". As if there's intent by the fetus or some directed force other than nature. As life is purely materialistic, I find it odd a biological imperative would be classified in such terms by him - a hierarchical weighing of "rights". Sadly not even atheist thought-leaders are immune to political beliefs that borderline on the religious. Once he introduced "rights" into the debate, he set himself up for losing. Because if we use rights to judge an issue, what possible "right" can trump the basic and essential right to life itself??

[@Uhdksurvhunter]

@@Reclaimer77 It depends on where you arbitrarily draw the line, like anything else in society. Preferrably this would be logically consistent. Personally i lean more towards Destiny interpretation of the morality of abortion, over Dillahuntys. The case is very logically consistent, if your line for where life is valued is after having had a concious experience. Been a while since i talked about abortion. Its usually a boring subject since 99% of people arguing against is doing so purely on emotional grounds.

[@beastongaming1866]

I love that Destiny openly and proudly brags about him being stumped or proven wrong, it shows a level of open-mindedness most political commentators don't have.

[@brytonmunro5270]

The opposite of destiny’s approach to potentially being incorrect, is often cognitive dissonance. I see it everywhere and it’s incredibly disappointing. Any opportunity to learn should be appreciated. Obviously delivery matters but regardless that fact stands

[@HeyIntegrity]

That's because they agree on most things.

[@thebermuda99]

Because that almost never happens to him

[@mikerotcherson]

It's called "clickbait"

[@allrequiredfields]

​@@mikerotchersonYou're simply too dense to understand what's going on here.

[@JackgarPrime]

As long as you make it clear you're still in good faith and engaging genuinely, you can always get an excellent conversation out of Matt Dillahunty. He's one of the most enjoyable debaters on the internet, and has been for many years.

[@pax630]

a master, if you will >_>

[@therainman7777]

It’s too bad he got the woke mind virus. Around 2010 it seemed like atheism was picking up speed and might even sweep across America; then woke infected it and it burned to the ground like everything else.

[@halosaft]

@@therainman7777 When has he ever been woke..? He even had to leave the ACA because he wasn't woke and the ACA didn't like that.

[@therainman7777]

@@halosaft You haven’t been paying enough attention. Even in this conversation he references the fact that they shouldn’t really be talking about abortion because they’re both men 🙄

[@halosaft]

@@therainman7777 And right there you just highlighted that you didn't pay attention to Matt at all. He *clearly* explained, in detail, why he said that. He said it's purely because of the optics. Then he even clarified that abortion is *not* a womans issue, not even a "people with wombs"-issue. It's an everyones issue. That's him basically saying FU to the woke crowd that's been telling him for years that he can't have an opinion on abortion because he's a man. Listen next time.

[@v44rgtuy0l3]

I could only listen and not watch, but it sounded to me like while they were taking the discussion seriously, they were having a great time going through it. And honestly the good faith, "hey I just want to understand you and where the lines you draw are" from both of them is just... So good. Not a moment of my time felt wasted. Excellent job.

[@Toxodos]

guess the algorithm is pushing this because people are saying the same thing about the cenk debate lol

[@v44rgtuy0l3]

@@Toxodos that's weird. The Chenk debate was really disappointing. Destiny let him get away with so many lies.

[@randomx4289]

I don't think you're an honest person if you label abortion as murder.

[@aruiztech]

So then why if a pregnant woman is murdered, it's a double murder? Shouldn't the murderer only be charged for one murder?

[@randomx4289]

@aruiztech Yeah, that's a double murder obviously, if both of them died. It's not a double murder if the woman dies, but the baby is delivered. But that's off topic.

[@randomx4289]

@aruiztech Abortion is not murder. Abortion is a Termination of Pregnancy. You can terminate a pregnancy and deliver the baby at the same time. In this case, there is no death. If there's no death, then where is the murder? But it was still an abortion wasn't it? So now you're caught up in a dilemma of your own making. Because you've taken upon yourself to define abortion by something other than what it is.

[@randomx4289]

@aruiztech Here's a problem You've created by biasedly defined Abortion as Murder, because murder has legal ramifications by law. The example I had given above, where there is an abortion and a delivery, so no death occurs, it is still an Abortion (Termination of Pregnancy). Which means they'd still need to be sentenced for no crime committed, and Murder can carry a life sentence. What moral person advocates for any sentencing for a crime not committed, especially a life sentence?

[@aruiztech]

@ So I guess it’s in the language. I’m not on any side, just wondered about that. You kinda cleared it up a bit. Thank you.

[@jonperez5380]

Omg it's so weird Matt was like the first online person I followed in circa the early 2010s. To see him with Destiny( someone I have followed more so in the past 5 years )is such a shock. Makes you think home much you change in a decade.

[@faikerdogan2802]

İkrrr

[@id1550]

Small world

[@ShrivelledHeartSoftware]

Yeah followed matt from atheist experience for like 10+ years and destiny from starcraft

[@faikerdogan2802]

@@ShrivelledHeartSoftware dam u old timer 😅

[@unkownuser41190]

Same. Matt is the reason why I'm an atheist today. I've been watching him for about 10 years & only destiny for about 5 too. It's awesome seeing them together.

[@Joe_Handsome]

Wasn't expecting this. Always enjoy listing to Matt and Destiny, and had no idea they were going to talk. Glad this happened.

[@TurinTuramber]

Props to Matt and Destiny for a refreshingly cordial conversion.

[@SmartAss4123]

The main issue with telling woman they CANT have an abortion, is that at that point we are essentially taking control of her body. And I can't in good conscious reconcile with that.

[@grugra]

That might be the most stupid comment on this subject I have ever read.

[@Gaddo_]

If you believe the child in the womb is a person, and you allow abortions, then you are allowing the mother to kill a child. This logic can be flipped the other way around. I think that being forced to carry a child to term is not as bad as killing a person.

[@littlesquiddiesttv]

I think a big point is the idea that if you believe it is murder then its easy to make an argument that you CANT murder somebody.

[@vitopettito1689]

@@littlesquiddiesttv But I think the ease of justification based on bodily autonomy is evidence that it is not in fact murder.

[@AlintraxAika]

Pro abortion people seem to not understand that they should argue why abortion is not murder. No one that is agaist abortion cares about this argument about bodily autonomy. This argument is so weak that it leads to accepting a pregnancy termination even in preterm pregnancies when the fetus is 'completely formed' but not mature yet.

[@Recluse7477]

One of the very few conversations online that I must put in my favorites. It's so refreshing to see actual good faith debates and very compelling arguments

[@avgppltalking]

Part of the problem is too many people are willing to continue conversations of contentious philosophical topics, where this amount of good faith is not present. When I debate on my show or in person, I regularly guard for and check for continued good faith in the discussion, or it stops. Your interlocutors owe it you, and you should feel just in demanding it, but most people don’t think that way. That’s an idea worth spreading so we can have better conversations moving forward.

[@PimpingWolfwood]

I've followed Matt for around a decade and Destiny for a couple years. This discussion was a blast to listen to. I hope they have more conversations.

[@Luke47895]

Holy shit what a blast from the past, I was in my teens when I last watched The Atheist Experience. This was a fantastic conversation, both sides brought good arguments and it remained good natured and civil. Breath of fresh air against all the drama bullshit.

[@dfhdf4214]

i was wondering why he looked familiar

[@chewbecka2067]

I used to watch videos of him and prank callers that he would take the bait of and tip his fedora to, and then thunderf00t making fun of what this guy did to the whole atheism shit. Besides that he always seemed very boring and only repeated things that you'd expect and stereotype an atheist to say.

[@ZhangK71]

@@chewbecka2067 It’s not his fault that he has to talk with any prank callers and treat them seriously (unless it’s like just a terrible troll job and it’s blatantly obvious). Just like it’s not firefighters’ fault that they have to take calls seriously even when it’s some immature edgy 15-year-old making false reports. Because fighting fires and blind faith are both very important things to do.

[@chewbecka2067]

@@ZhangK71 let's not get too extreme with the comparisons lol, I was talking about his atheist talk show and yes it seemed pretty obvious.

[@G_Demolished]

@@chewbecka2067 Show us on the doll where Matt hurt your theistic beliefs.

[@mikedavey1996]

The last two years has shown support for abortion when the mothers life is at risk seems to make no difference in several states when in the mothers life is at risk. The mother becomes disposable.

[@exitspree]

I'd kill for a weekly call-in show hosted by Destiny and Dillahunty. Dillahunty just left the ACA a few weeks ago, he's got some spare time. For shts and giggles they could call it D&D.

[@levendil14]

I really appreciate how Destiny clearly put a meaningful amount of effort into preparing for this discussion. Matt has been doing this sort of thing for decades so there isn't really a question to me that he is the stronger "debater" on the topic. I think this turned out to be a really great and respectful back and forth between these two and as someone who doesn't follow destiny or anything this made me far more impressed with him.

[@marstru1498]

Na. Dillahunty lost this debate. He cemented his failure when he used his tired " I'm not convinced" statement. His and Destiny's job is to debate and "convince" the audience.Dillahunty is not the audience.

[@jonathanclark9584]

I dunno about that. Most of Destiny's debate was morality whereas Dillahunty was debating legal rights. It was a bit of a muddied debate in that regard, so I don't see a winner, just a good conversation among two intelligent people.

[@andrewfrank7222]

@@marstru1498 Yes. And the position of US law, and in effect, moral duty of society is to come up with a principle that defines when it is okay to take away the rights of a pregnant human. I am sorry, feeling bad for the fetus is not enough to force someone to do something with their body that is in fact life threatening. Destiny and others cannot come up with a solution, so they appeal to emotion and polling. That is not an argument. If you want to save the fetus' life, become a biologist and a doctor and invent an artificial womb. Forcing your will on someone based on your emotions is the F word.

[@oldschoolsaint]

@@marstru1498l pop lzzzzzzzzz

[@notsure6222]

@@marstru1498 Matt said several times that he doesn't give a shit about the moral aspect and that's what Destiny kept doing, so I'm not sure how you got the idea Matt lost. Watch again and use your brain this time.. This was just an interesting conversation that shows several potentially new points of view for the audience to think on. In short, there were no winners or losers, just an interesting conversation on a topic.

[@msrpmusic303]

Both are clearly intelligent and well-reasoned, but this didn't need to be an hour. It felt like after 20 minutes they were talking in circles.

[@pakchoy9334]

Agreed. Destiny kept trying to define where Matt believed ethical/moral virtue became obligatory etc, when he clearly said this is not what he is interested in and has no relation to the question of whether abortion should be legal or illegal. Annoyed me a bit how they didn't dive into a more legal POV

[@BillClay88]

Destiny is the analogy master. These debates are about as riveting as abortion.

[@sopliplily2204]

@@pakchoy9334 Just because Matt insists there is no relation doesn't mean that's true. There is a clear relationship between legal rights and moral duties, namely that legal rights entail negative moral duties. Matt needs to take Ethics 101.

[@CatOnFire]

​@Sop Lip (Lily) As Matt pointed out, there are morals that do not have laws associated and there are laws that do not have moral obligations associated. While the two are often linked, and for good reason, that does not mean that we are required to establish moral obligation in line with a well-reasoned law before we can enact it.

[@sopliplily2204]

@@CatOnFire Yes... but the whole point about the abortion debate is that there are two rights clashing. He cannot simply assert one is legal and the other is moral lol; insofar as rights are concerned, they are directly associated to positive or negative moral duty (Please know there is a distinction between meta-ethics and ethics/ rights and laws). Destiny is attempting to finetune which right trumps the other, while Matt is not even understanding the fundamental ethical issue.

[@Towelgravy]

18:50 The problem I have with this is that when my step-sister was pregnant I was terrified. I mean.. when she was 8-9 months pregnant, I was terrified for her safety. There are many complications that can occur during the pregnancy itself that can cause the mother to lose her life. There aren't always ways to predict this. In the end, it all worked out fine but there was no guarantee. You can't just say "Typically, women don't die during childbirth..." because while that may be true, it is certainly not a 100% survival rate. Even if it was only a 0.1% mortality rate, I knew it was a possibility. Tossing a coin always has a possibility of landing on it's edge. I would never begrudge someone for refusing to skydive on the off-chance both the parachute and the backup-parachute both fail. In my eyes, that's likely the same odds as someone dying in childbirth. I'd never force someone to do anything that had any remote chance of their own demise unless they were 100% aware of that fact. There most surely exists a case where a woman who was completely healthy with absolutely zero health conditions who somehow during a series of unfortunate events had a complication during childbirth and lost her life. If it happened once it can happen again. I wasn't willing to take that risk. ... but it wasn't my choice to decide. It was her choice to get pregnant and to follow it through to it's logical conclusion. If it was up to me I would have never allowed her to get pregnant in the first place! but... that's because I'm selfish and I want her to life. Of course, once her son was born it all changed-- but from my perspective, the whole time she was pregnant there was an underlying terrifying possibility. If I was the one pregnant and had the same thought, I would imagine it would have been 100 times more terrifying. (obviously I never voiced any of this to her-- she was under enough stress)

[@SinisterSkip]

Destiny, this is SOOO refreshing! I think it's a good idea to talk more with (1) informed people (2) who have an adult brain (3) the ability to listen and (4) to formulate their own views properly. That's what happened here and it's SOOO much better. I mean, respectfully, 90% of your arguments are with dumb, narcissistic, childish, narrow minded, arrogant kids who can't string one complete sentence together. We need more real conversations where two functional human beings have a good discussion like here. Thanks for that! Hope we can have it more often :)

[@dragan176]

Because that's what gets clicks

[@wasdwasdedsf]

good faith debate by two pseudointellectual hacks with identical opinions sounds like such a fascinating debate!

[@shuheihisagi6689]

Destiny is immature. He is addicted to sex and he plays video games all day long.

[@brytonmunro5270]

@@shuheihisagi6689 so you’ve stated that he’s immature and then you’ve utilized two examples (one of which isn’t factual), of which indicate maturity, as a means of justifying that? How does that work? His “video games” are his work. It’s a job. Furthermore, he does a lot more than just “play video games”. Your logic is a fallacy.

[@RediTtora]

Dude they're not even fucking having a debate you're literally just discussing without any real counter arguments. What you're really saying is you want to see two people that you essentially agree with reinforced each other.

[@ThinkDubz]

Why does an interaction like this feel so rare? Why does this feel so special? This display of coexistence should be normal for everyone. Great conversation with many considerations.

[@Lord_Vadr]

Because you are looking in the wrong place. You are likely spending all of your free time perusing the internet instead of local venues or regional institutions that promote open debate and intellectualism.

[@ThinkDubz]

@@Lord_Vadr fair point. But not all my free time goes to interesting internet debates lol :P thanks for the suggestion as i do hope more these types of cordial conversations are out there.

[@jmr2343]

this is what a true good faith debate looks like, not just when you're sacrificing intellectualism for vanity like most political content creators.

[@FT-ws2li]

Because people got used to screaming while having conversations (I might be wrong but this is my guess).

[@RediTtora]

I don't understand you people acting like this is special this is literally to left-wingers, both of which are pro-choice merely discussing just how extreme they should be with their pro-choice standards

[@tshepokgwele1789]

It's always good to see Matt finally debate an honest person.

[@inrealitywetrust2610]

What about Ray Comfort? He's honest , 😆

[@tshepokgwele1789]

@@inrealitywetrust2610 lol, in a very disingenuous way 😂😂

[@inrealitywetrust2610]

@@tshepokgwele1789 Exactly 😁

[@thienle743]

If he was honest he’d actually listened and asked different questions. I saw several points where he could asked and continue from Matt’s answer but he did not and instead went on to ask questions more related to his points

[@kiwirooks7299]

Destiny is not an honest person; that being said the video is fun to watch.

[@terrybyrne6207]

Anyone that would argue that you would have an abortion at 7 months not to miss a vacation has never been pregnant nor been around a pregnant person. Nobody would abort a baby that they’ve carried for seven months of sickness and toil for anything other than catastrophic reasons. 3rd trimester termination happens very rarely and is almost always a devastation to the would’ve been parents. Taking away that right is dangerous for women, whom will die without it. ALL abortion should be legal!!!

[@timtaft8585]

This is false. Abortion in the third trimester is never medically necessary. A c-section is the proper treatment for medical complications in the third trimester. Both mother and baby live. And people do get abortions in the third trimester for non-medical reasons.

[@Rauzwel]

Matt was THE guy that actually made me question my faith as a kid, helped me understand the world just a bit better. Great guy with a great mind for challenging hard-baked beliefs.

[@danielsmithiv1279]

And where do you believe now? Or are you too afraid to share your current worldview?

[@Squidwardsclarinet69]

@@danielsmithiv1279 I’m definitely still atheist bc that’s how I was born and I was never indoctrinated into a cult as a child so I’m still a free man.

[@Herzyyyy]

Same here his atheist experience show was good

[@Charzilian]

Same here, I've learned a lot from Matt and those around him, and they have opened my mind to explore more. Though I don't agree with all of his options about certain things, there's no denying that he has influenced me greatly.

[@Jaryism]

I’m glad he helped you become a nihilist and believe life has no ultimate meaning. I hope you in the long term are happy on your death bed that “this is it”.

[@fitnessteacher1845]

Videos like this give me hope for civilization. To find calmed, intelligent discussion on KZbin over such polarising issues is a breath of fresh air. A huge thank you to both for showing what a true debate/discussion should look like.

[@RediTtora]

They're both leftist how is this fucking a debate this is two guys on the left discussing just how extreme they should be.

[@MrZebra-lf8yk]

Rather an arrogant grown ass man who hates his mom saying killing babies is okay because he decided it is, mind you he wasn’t aborted what a joker

[@howiedick6857]

Your hope is misplaced.

[@MarkoGh]

Hope for civilization? you just listened to Dillahunty say nobody has the right to anothers person body, according to his logic a mother can give birth to a child and not breastfeed him and let him die as a result and she's not guilty of anything cuz the baby doesnt have the right to the mothers body, and people sat around listening to him and thought that doesnt sound strange at all. what kind of twisted morals do u live by?

[@howiedick6857]

@MarkoGh your missing the point. It's not that we don't have morality, it's that we have no way to anchor that morality in terms of absolute morality.

[@darestone3335]

More of this!!! Intellectually stimulating content with smart people presenting smart ideas instead of interpersonal drama.

[@phantasticmrphasma9874]

Its really weird, i was just thinking this the other day.. i’ve seen a lot of matts atheist podcasts and he’s brutal af. I wondered if destiny would ever work with him

[@chadingram6390]

@@phantasticmrphasma9874 Watch his formal debates, he's much calmer

[@amazin7006]

This aint intellectual...

[@youhaveaGodregardlesscreature]

You have a God sweetheart youre a creature

[@phantasticmrphasma9874]

@@chadingram6390 ok. Well, i’m not saying i dont like his brutal delivery 😅 well sometimes he can take it a bit far, but punks respect pressure

[@youtubesewers915]

I've never seen a debate where two people on stage have already predetermined that they agree on the topic, there was literally almost no debate here, this was just a conversation in front of the audience and they were paid to be there.

[@alvallac2171]

*topic. There *here. This A comma by itself is not sufficient to join independent clauses. That is an error called a comma splice run-on.

[@mediocrates1937]

As someone who grew up listening to debates with people like Christopher Hitchens & Daniel Dennett, I'm sorry to say a "debate" between Destiny & Dillahunty pales in comparison.

[@Twisterhere]

Man, this was something I never expected. Was a massive fan of Matt back in the day, and admittedly couldn't stand Destiny when I first watched him. Since, he has grown so much, to where I definitely see him as a source of reason and pretty grounded moral principles. More of this, please.

[@OpiatesAndTits]

Destinys problem is he can be abrasive. Then at times almost too charitable when he did his Nebraska Steve rant about the lengths he goes to accommodate conservatives I better understood what he was doing. For awhile I thought too much contact with the keffals of the world was poisoning his mind but rather he was twisting himself into a pretzel to accommodate conservatives in a debate maybe too much to the point where he was attracting conservatives in the same way he was attracting lefty fans. I know this because we see dogshit DGGers who are super conservative being surprised and spewing dogshit arguments when he says something they don’t like (including that Nebraska Steve video) which mirrors early on the lefties in his audience being shocked by his capitalistic takes like supporting citizens United for some odd reason (maybe it’s misinterpreting the narrow ruling that should have happened with the actual ruling? Maybe I’m wrong but it’s been awhile) It’s often easy especially if you see him clip chimped to have a real negative view of destiny.

[@InsanitiesBrother]

@@OpiatesAndTits Literally me. I couldn't stand him a few years back in the Obama era. He always argued on hypothetical analogies that didn't really line up the way he made them seem. It made him come across just very "im right so hard, and there is 0 chance of me being wrong". But he slowly started to get more grounded in reality, politics and the material he talks about. He became much more interesting to listen to as you could track his developing ideas.

[@suckston]

@Slava Ukraine you failed to consider those problems could have been caused by too much money in politics in the first place. also, people saying take money out of politics dont mean that people shouldnt have the right to donate to a campaign they agree with, they mean legal bribes ("lobbying") and corporations giving unlimited amounts of money to politicians, which effectively undermines democratic principles by giving unreasonably big sway over the opinion of people in power to corporations. by the way, there are dozens of countries that do not have the so-called "money in politics" and they do not face the problems that usa faces.

[@amazin7006]

@@OpiatesAndTits jesse wtf are you talking about

[@HidingFromFate]

@@suckston Of course, you are correct. Crazy to me that someone would argue otherwise.

[@MultiRomyl]

Matt Dillahunty is so well spoken. I have seen many of his previous debates and he knows how to articulate his points in an effective manner. So it was nice seeing him debate Destiny. Really liked the conversation.

[@DangerRussDayZ6533]

Unfortunately being well spoken is a great way to fool people into thinking you're smart. I don't think he's very smart. In fact, he spends much of his time yelling at people and cursing them out, which is a sign of someone who thinks that they are smart.

[@wvblank42]

@@DangerRussDayZ6533 unfortunately people never answer his questions honestly because of their cognitive dissonance.

[@jonathonsanders2508]

@@DangerRussDayZ6533 I think you would get upset too if every time you give a detailed comment the other person says you're wrong because of faith, magic and make believe.

[@Wingerlang]

Hos views of defending meat eating was really poor though. Will give it a try.

[@julianmarsh8384]

@@DangerRussDayZ6533 He did not use to do that but after years and years of hearing the same bs. re: religion, he has lost all patience with stupid people.

[@LucretiusDraco]

Usually I avoid debates but this was fascinating. I appreciate the respectful disagreement. I think a huge part of growing involves engaging with ideas/opinions we don’t completely agree with

[@gyefinger]

I love this type of conversation. Genuine respect and thoughfulness. No drama.

[@p.l.5860]

This debate is a great exchange. Too many other debates devolve into "Why are you refusing to answer the question with a yes or no?!"

[@538ruud]

Beautifull debate! Verry calm and deliberative. These kinds of things ACTUALLY help our society. They help everyone use this discussion to find new points of view and use that to reflect on their own thoughts and corresponding beliefs. Giving the chance to change your mind or create a stronger base for our belief. Love it

[@DirewolfFang1]

This was a fantastic conversation so fun to listen to!

[@andrew5689]

Yo Pauly, where's the spice at?!

[@piedpiper6425]

Damn, I lived my life for a bit, blinked and you were up 300k subs. Crazy growth. Happy for you

[@tulaloo6526]

I really enjoy the different thought processes and the concise discussion and exploration of ideas. Looking forward to more of this type of discussion.

[@pete6769]

Matt would have a “debate” and not get upset every day if his opponents would just be honest and have a reasonable conversation.

[@sullainvictus]

Totally man, it's everybody else that's the problem.

[@pete6769]

@@sullainvictus I’m glad you agree😜

[@pete6769]

@@SkeletalMisunderstanding where did that show up?

[@dflctr]

That fallacy is not present here​@@SkeletalMisunderstanding

[@gmee123]

Sure....ok... lol

[@chandlersleziak6416]

Two of my favorite content creators talking to each other: it's about time that Destiny and Matt had a discussion. This was an awesome talk to watch. 👍

[@DaveZee823]

It got boring after Destiny's 100th analogy.

[@BillClay88]

One is redundant the other is a speed freak looking to never lose a debate.

[@Garfield.Farkle]

It's so refreshing to see differing views being shared between people of good will who converse WITH each other rather than talk AT each other. We make progress when we do this, and if we seek agreement, identify where we agree first; the identify where we are somewhat apart and can compromise, in a spirit of good will; then we reduce the disagreement to a point where we have to agree to disagree on a much-reduced disagreement if we do not erase the disagreement entirely.

[@dtubbs]

I was at this debate! Hands down the best and most thought provoking discussion the entire day. Matt's explanation for me separating the law from morality was super helpful

[@phantasticmrphasma9874]

Morality is subjective. It’s easy to forget that. In truth, it doesn’t exist or hold any value, outside the realm of our subjective minds. My issue with it is that people word it as ‘what’s fundamentally right’ rather than ‘what i think should happen’

[@sarcastaball]

Prove it

[@AWalkOnDirt]

For me it’s a personhood debate and analogous is end of life decisions. A pro-abortion fundamentalist can’t at the same time have a living will.

[@jasonthomas9319]

Apply that same argument to slavery ? The truth is absent morality, you can make anything legal. This is why I would argue why atheist regimes are dangerous, if you seek to only go by legality, you can do anything to anyone. Laws are derived out of religion , beliefs ....Matt would be the person in 1850 defending slavery, because you can defend something legally and keep telling people to stop bring morals into the discussion....

[@jasonthomas9319]

@@phantasticmrphasma9874 General morals are shared by all normal humans..... Also I would hope where matt can give a rationale for defending bodily autonomy? This is actually a moral argument why ? Matt keeps making a legal argument "abortion " to defend a moral arguments " bodily autonomy ". All rights have to be derived from morality because you can't find laws under a microscope, they are created by peoples morals.....

[@AbrahamNixons]

I used to watch Matt on The Atheist Experience in the mid 2000's, this is a crossover I never thought I would see.

[@neomangeo7822]

Great talk. A proper civil conversation. Something often lacking in the debatosphere.

[@zachisebi]

Holy crap, that is the best pro choice argument I have ever heard.

[@rennhoalohaloren6211]

You have to love the debate's CIVIL discourse: Respect and discussion as opposed to inflammatory explosions of emotions. MUCH respect!

[@bentinbama1]

As a conservative....I love hearing these arguments even if I don't agree with everything being said...thinking through these issues is important for both sides

[@Nonamam]

That's nice, but what's the point of listening if doesn't actually make a difference? Which conservative points do u have? U r anti choice?

[@Srevengel]

​@@Nonamam It helps people reevaluate their arguments and take a stance with a more educated\considerate approach. They might reconsider who they want to vote for, based on those arguments, and that's where it makes a difference.

[@Crashawsome]

As a conservative? What does that mean, that you. just agree with whatever a 'conservative' tells you?

[@101perspective]

@@Nonamam I think the point is that he/she is at LEAST listening. If one of those two were pro life then the discussion would have been pro choice vs pro life. And since he/she is pro life (I suspect) then they would have spent all their time listening and cheering on the pro life speaker and shrugging off/ignoring the pro choice person. It would have been more about winning the debate in his/her head vs understanding the position(s). Not that the other type of debate doesn't have it's benefits also.

[@jackpaul3315]

@@Nonamami guess hes a human with human emotions and against murder i suppose

[@noone3216]

This was a refreshing and respectful debate to listen to. In all honesty Destiny, I'd never heard of you before or seen any of your content (I have been following Matt and his religious debates for some years), but I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and your debate style. I think I'll definitely be checking out some more of your stuff.

[@bigkroner766]

11:40 I love when dillahunty bites the bullet instantly and the chad emotes start rolling in lol

[@lukasmiller8531]

In my opinion, your duty to provide help massively increases if you are the reason the person needs help. Destiny should have pushed him more on that. Yes, you might not have a duty to swim 10 km into the ocean to rescue someone in general, but if you threw them overboard there, then situation is a bit different.

[@yarpenzigrin1893]

Exactly. When you put someone on life support the least you can do is pay for it. You don't get to put someone on life support and then pull the plug because you don't feel like paying.

[@darkdragonite1419]

@@yarpenzigrin1893 “feel like paying”.. So you don’t value consent enough then? If I consent to give blood do I not have the right to stop at any time? Even If I consented to a pregnancy I’d have the right to end it any time because it’s MY organs being used. If you disagree then you see people as means to an end instead of ends unto themselves.

[@yarpenzigrin1893]

@@darkdragonite1419 Are you not aware that sex may lead to pregnancy? You consent to the term of service when you engage in sex. It's like going skiing and then crying that you didn't consent to breaking a leg. You did when you put the skis on.

[@paegun]

@@yarpenzigrin1893 Exactly this. There isn't a single human being that has the capability to engage in sex that doesn't also understand that sex is how people are made. If you don't want to take that risk and be responsible for the outcome, then don't have sex.

[@thomaswalmsley8959]

@@darkdragonite1419 consent is such a dumb thing to bring up in the pregnancy and abortion topics. The Fetus didn't consent to be there, and didn't t take any action to put itself there, unlike the person having sex. So if you conceptualized the fetus as a person (I don't) you're violating it's consent far more than the person who is pregnant. So now where do you go from there. Cause if you go with consent that's the most easy way to say no abortions ever at any point.

[@andrusbgx]

I’m 36 years old and i remember watching and binging episodes/clips of The Atheist Experience and seeing Matt Dillahunty destroying Christian callers with insane facts and logic. I was such a fan of this man. Seeing Destiny debate him on this topic, and in such respectful manner is so nice and nostalgic!

[@josephsimpson3479]

I’m 35 and feel the same thing. Loved him on early AE.

[@sowersass2]

I still have a playalist on here of the atheist experience I used to binge it as well. Also why does destiny look forward looking angry as hell for the first like 2 mins? I don't watch him all that much so idk his mannerisms.

[@rickpearson7943]

​@sowersass2 Well, if you watch enough Destiny videos you'll come to realize he's generally an arrogant douchebag.

[@OLskewL]

"destroying"

[@karenkline7221]

People can be Atheist and still realize that a baby is a baby no matter how small. Most pro-life Atheists are pro-life because they are Atheist, and figure that this life on this Earth is the only life they'll have. And just because people can discuss a subject in a civil manner without losing their temper, doesn't mean that what they're saying is automatically true.

[@nihilistlivesmatter]

Dillahunty's point about medical professionals being unable to withdraw consent after training isn't consistent with his point that a person can withdraw consent after consenual sexual activity leading to pregnancy

[@Stagi566]

Technically they could withdraw consent. They could quit the profession and pursue other things or return after the event etc...

[@KBosch-xp2ut]

It’s similar to entering the military. These professions are governed by their own ethical boards where there are special rules you are obligated to adhere to if you get into that field. Lawyers are restricted by professional standards as well, although they’re not as consequential.

[@NuclearSunshineSB]

I think what makes destiny special in this realm is his ability to understand and articulate the arguments and views of people he fundamentally disagrees with

[@monkeytime9851]

What makes him special is that he engages in good faith and isn't out to win as much as to explore the issue. That's my preferred way of proceeding so I like him.

[@acason4]

Two of my favorite liberal, atheist, thinkers. Props to both of you guys for an engaging discussion… 👌🏻

[@MarsLonsen]

destiny isn't an atheist its a girls name

[@T1Slam]

I don't see Hasan and Tate here...

[@thefadebeta580]

I would say centrist ,I don't believe anyone is truly left or right, however, these identities are pushed pretty heavily nowadays so I understand why you say liberal. I think it's a shame that politics have become so polarized ...it really detracts from any meaningful discussion ,hinders progress and generally makes many ideological talking points into an episode of Hatfields and McCoys.

[@sylvester5022]

@@T1Slam Tate isn't an atheist

[@sjewitt22]

@@thefadebeta580 How old are you?

[@sanjaythomas]

Wow - like I needed a reason to love Matt more :) - what a great debate: honest, intellectual and respectful - two great points of view (consent Vs personhood) by two reasoned and reasonable fellows. Kudos to Destiny also (first time seeing you)

[@buddyblueyes]

This is one of the great times, where we get to watch Matt pause (eyes up) and seriously think about what the opposition is saying. It's refreshing to watch after seeing Matt's boredom talking with (and destroying) theists and their continuous, elementary bad logic. We need more of Matt's thoughts on other topics and politics, and he should be engaging with intellectual giants, on a big stage. One of the great thinkers of our time. I wish Destiny and Matt could have been the tag-team match in "Destiny confronts Pro-Lifers" livestream. These two are a powerhouse debate team and it would be rewarding to see them go up against serious debate opponents.

[@namelessvoid9725]

@buddyblueyes or you could have just not seen any good theist debaters debate him. Matt "destroying" those debaters as you put it doesn't prove or disprove anything. Some of the greatest intellectuals in human history were theists.

[@tipsy09]

yeah because believing everything came from nothing instead of a creator is logical

[@RS1SCH7]

​@@namelessvoid9725because if they weren't they would be burned at the stake as heretics

[@namelessvoid9725]

@@RS1SCH7 Wow it's almost as if Einstein himself as well as many other more modern day scientists philosophers etc have all pointed to the existence of a god/intelligent design despite not being religious in any way with no threat of death or torture. Crazy how that works isn't it?

[@RS1SCH7]

@@namelessvoid9725 none of them pointed to supernatural existence or intelligent design, they we're searching for answers about their beliefs... Most scientists nowadays are most definitely not religious but ok

[@tambourinesmusicmachine]

Holy Shit! My world colliding! Never thought I'd see the day Destiny got to meet up with Dillahunty

[@01man01truck]

This is such a good talk. Much respect to both of them. I'm definitely more of a destiny viewer but nearly a decade ago Matt is one of the people most responsible for helping me along through my journey of atheism. Much love.

[@inrealitywetrust2610]

Same here 🤗

[@lholliday198]

Yo I hope he comes on destinys stream to get involved in the chaos. Seems like a smart fella

[@pseudobeast4653]

I think the problem with the abortion debate is we start from the supposition that a human life is a precious and inherently valuable thing. They aren’t. Life in general is a disposable. Nature treats it this way often. Humans treat it like this depending on who we think deserves to live or die. As a society we routinely kill off masses of innocent humans, humans who have already lived and contributed to the world. If a woman does not want to be pregnant, that’s her decision alone and no one else should have any say in the matter.

[@timtaft8585]

This is a stupid take, but it makes sense if you’re a secularist whose ethical framework is entirely arbitrary

[@deathofalusher]

​@@timtaft8585 * insert Euthyphro dilemma

[@timtaft8585]

@@deathofalusher the Euthyphro Dilemma is not a particularly difficult objection. Christian philosophers answered this millennia ago

[@jjthebat]

32 minutes in and all I can say is thanks to Destiny for introducing me to this guy! I stand more in line with Matt's logic-line of thinking than Destiny's, but it's satisfying watching the conversation and how each of their brains work out the "why's" to their respective answers!

[@fredc.meekinsjr.5553]

Matt is a brilliant debater and a master of logical analysis. And his hobbies include not collecting stamps!

[@fabianbello8128]

Matt was the main host of the Atheist Experience for many years. It's a call-in show to debate religious arguments. There's hours and hours of clips on KZbin. Quite fun if you enjoy the topic, although silly arguments abound.

[@blueguy12345]

Yeah, i've been following Matt for years. He's great.

[@yoshisaidit7250]

@@fredc.meekinsjr.5553 NonStampCollector is the best cartoons ever made.

[@jouflow]

Who is this “destiny” person, Who everybody is talking about?

[@Saint_Vitus]

I never ever ever ever thought these two would do a thing together but they are! This is so awesome. Matt is so crazy articulate and one of the best debaters I've ever listen to but he always is in the realm of easy targets like religion, to see him with Destiny makes it a special day.

[@amazin7006]

For someone who does this for a living for 10+ years its pretty crazy how he gets stumped by a level 1 analogy at 25:00

[@Saint_Vitus]

I'd get stumped too if asked what an NFT is.

[@RonaldhinoMcLean]

This was an incredible conversation. Both debaters provided good insight, effective pushback and possessed the approproate rhetorical skills to make it engaging for the audience. I agree more with Destiny, though.

[@joshua1.8]

I think that the point made that “no one has the right to use my body without my consent” doesn’t work when you consider that it’s illegal to abandoned a newborn baby and let us die. For example if a mother refused to breastfeed or go to the store and get formula. According to Dillahunty the baby has no right to demand that the mother moves a muscle if she doesn’t want to.

[@JerseyMikesAndTheBoys]

his argument also starts with the disingenuous premise that they "the couple" didn't give consent initially to make the child, but they did. Notice in the violin argument he steered clear of the idea that there was a legal argument to be made about consenting and being obligated to then keep the person alive. The core of the issue is that two people consented to the growth of a child and now would like to break contract if you will.

[@SirCammyBoi]

He made the distinction with the Kid in the pool analogy. Feeding a baby formula doesn't bring great risks to your health and fundamentally change your body forever.

[@TedLJones]

Nope, he said that he'd consider the person who lets the baby starve a monster because it doesn't affect the adult's wellbeing, unlike risking themself to save a kid from drowning.

[@timtaft8585]

@@SirCammyBoihe is definitely moving goalposts if his argument is shifting toward no one has the right to use your body without your consent given the impact is great enough while tacitly conceding that they might have a right to use it if the impact is less severe.

[@MonkeyDIvan]

Kudos to Dillahunty. This is great content!

[@gregmata3132]

This debate actually didn't feel like my brain was being fried for once. But actually hooked on these standpoints and ideologies. Damn good discussion!

[@joey-re1xi]

"they dont pay me enough to talk to him" lmao this guys awesome

[@devinjanosov]

Dillahunty’s view on the legality of abortion is spot on.

[@Eyrie007]

It's great that you posted this here. You two had a great conversation.

[@pramodmicelli]

You did a fine job with the personhood argument, but man, Matt was flawless I felt. He came across as calm, experienced & really articulate. I’m on the bodily autonomy side. More of Matt please.

[@SolarJakee]

​@@AFoxNamedSly I think he would almost certainly say he does have a right to kill the man (given that he's now part of his body and he has bodily autonomy). I find the bodily autonomy argument painfully simplistic. And none of Destiny's or Dillahunty's analogies really fit with pregnancy. Because a woman only gets pregnant through her own action (unless she's raped - which is a different issue), not from the actions of someone else. It isn't something that's been done to her; it's something she has done to bring another life into the world. Also, which I think is Destiny's point, it doesn't consider a fetus (which Dillahunty ironically said we have a moral obligation to protect) to have rights until it is a fully born individual. So killing a 8-9 month old fetus is perfectly justifiable in his view, because as long as the fetus is inside the woman's body it's within her rights to kill it.

[@yoboiboy4182]

@@SolarJakee abortion in the third trimester is so misleading. At that point they don’t really abort/kill anything. They just C-section the baby and put it in an incubator. Most babies are viable outside the womb in the third trimester ppl.

[@austingoyne3039]

@@SolarJakee he said we have a moral obligation, but distinguishes (several times idk how u missed it) between morality and the social contract. He believes society is better if we agree to protect bodily autonomy.

[@austingoyne3039]

@@AFoxNamedSly to your analogy: how small were the odds, what was his purpose for being in the building, has society permitted the risk of going into the building (driving, drinking alcohol etc. carry risks but we as a society agree that *taking the risk* does not *in itself* make you responsible for resulting harm), besides discomfort is there anything else he might have to endure (women may die in childbirth, develop severe physical or mental health issues, incur debt etc.)

[@austingoyne3039]

@@AFoxNamedSly most people seem to think that it’s a simple question of whether the woman knowingly risked pregnancy. Is there *any* moral issue that simple?

[@DodInTheSky]

What you can see on the screen is intellectuals conversing. What you can see in the chat is what would happen if chimps got access to the internet.

[@manchurian_idiot]

Well, we are all chimps and this is the internet.

[@RainyCityResident]

These are two of my favorite debaters

[@garywebb2432]

Unstoppable Force vs. Immovable Object

[@firefly9838]

True

[@sinjinbritt3371]

For those of you who call this a debate... you need to understand that this was an informal discussion, not a debate.

[@billycheatham2860]

Of course since they are both baby killers. Nothing to debate

[@enriquepagan7876]

That’s the problem with atheism. Everything is beholden to subjective realities that cannot be parametrized in any meaningful way. Nothing serves as a limiting factor because there’s nothing that transcends their relationship with the natural world. Dillahunty could’ve saved his bullshit and say babies are humans only when I determine so, otherwise it’s just part of the material world.

[@dokkabaerpg7896]

@@billycheatham2860womp womp 😢

[@JoniGSG]

​@@billycheatham2860 😂😂😂

[@thevoteman]

@@billycheatham2860where's the babies they killed please show me

[@iody247]

i love how in these irl debates steven always has fantastic posture.

[@meshakvb6431]

This is the first KZbin Sub I've made in... Years... Literally. I like watching Destiny debate, even if I disagree with him on things. He makes excellent arguments, and he's willing to concede a point from time to time.

[@mattyyey]

Im loving how the debate is well countered and done in good faith!

[@Fergit_]

nice of them to get destiny a high chair

[@MrSmith0128]

****phone book

[@jm8316]

Oddly enough, the toxic chat along with a strong conversation balanced into a great viewing experience.

[@themartialartsapproach8786]

It's always overlooked that a fetus isn't sentient, and therefore doesn't suffer death. It has no thoughts or awareness, no friends that will miss them, etc. A fetus brought to birth didn't have a say in that, and a lot of people end up terminating themselves despite self-preserving programming, because life more or less sucks. It's an unnecessary struggle, forced upon those born. Also, some kids born unwanted will become criminals that kill people that were wanted. Not a great argument, but I think it's fair to assume an unwanted child is more likely to suffer mentally (and physically) than a wanted one, and mental suffering manifests negatively.

[@JohnM-sw4sc]

Abortion ok because a tiny percentage of people self delete or become criminals. This is an argument against pregnancy altogether not abortion

[@themartialartsapproach8786]

@@JohnM-sw4sc this is an argument against forcing unwanted children to be born into circumstances with a high chance of abuse and / or neglect. Bad circumstances usually leads in bad directions. The question then becomes - why force that birth? Is it to "teach people a lesson" that if a woman bangs a guy before she's financially and emotionally secure and he accidentally nuts inside, the woman and the kid should be punished? What's your reason? An embryo in development isn't sentient, so what's the problem?

[@JohnM-sw4sc]

@@themartialartsapproach8786 because life starts at some point right ? We can’t say exactly where , so why wouldn’t we use conception in an abundance of caution to make sure we aren’t killing a human life ? Unless you can tell me where it starts ?

[@themartialartsapproach8786]

@@JohnM-sw4sc cells don't have thoughts, pain receptors, fear of death, etc. Months into pregnancy, there's no sentience. Again, why force a likely bad situation, when an abortion could give the woman a chance to have a baby later, in better circumstances? Happier lives, avoiding generational suffering, less crime, more productivity, etc. Also, do you support gov't help for single parents, poor children, abandoned kids, abuse victims, etc? If the gov't is going to force unwanted pregnancies, they should also be there to help with the mess, right?

[@JohnM-sw4sc]

@@themartialartsapproach8786 lmao no supporting the welfare state is literally the worst thing you can do if you want to end single parent homes. Single mother homes produce kids who are 2.5x more likely to go to jail , more likely to flunk high school, have emotional and leaning disabilities ,use drugs, and get pregnant when they are teenagers.single mother homes are a cycle of poverty from which families can’t escape. These kids grow up in crime and indignity and no amount of roe v wade ever helped them ; so why are you encouraging more of this ? Why can’t we just treat sex like Americans did in 1964 when kids had it better. Why would I support more of that ? Anyone who says we should find the welfare state doesn’t understand basic satirical analysis. Go look at what the single parent household rate was in 1960 (9%) it’s 40% now and over 70% in the African American community. Why is that? Even tho women got the pill and contraception why did it go up? Because we began paying them to be single moms. The moral thing to do is give the baby up for adoption . We would eventually sunset these programs But the “you better support them after they are born with welfare state bucks” argument is a high school debate caliber argument- seriously go look at the charts of single mother homes from 1964 to today- if we keep funding it women will keep doing it . And how dare you claim to care about a kid you were ready to terminate! the people who really help these kids are the Christian Right who adopt them .

[@wibblemu9]

This is actually just conversation porn. I love both Matt and Destiny and I always knew they would have an awesome debate if they ever had one. What an amazing discussion

[@kellmoney709]

The discussion is basically this 🔄 if talking around and around in circles is an amazing discussion then I guess so

[@wibblemu9]

@@kellmoney709 You expect such a complicated topic to be solved in an hour debate? They went down different avenues and got to different roadblocks. Thats the natural flow of a conversation like this where they are probing at very fundamental questions about what kinds of rights we should have.

[@kellmoney709]

@@wibblemu9 I need people to stop pretending like this is a difficult conversation when the answer is really simple if women are afraid to get pregnant if it's consensual or not which doesn't make any sense because women ultimately make the decision on who can f*** them because force is illegal 1. Close her tubes and never have a parasite(baby)in her body ever 2. Close your legs and don't have sex 3. Seven forms of birth control But honestly I'm starting to agree with pro-life for the long-term aspects as long as y'all women keep saying "my body my choice" no one would ever put a baby in that body which will ultimately mean the end of that bloodline so when pro-life goes extinct what's left "people that understand that's a baby" and for a man such as myself I can have babies at any time of my life so I rather play the waiting game until y'all go extinct have fun selfish pro-life people.

[@w0rkhop555]

@@kellmoney709 so then you would agree that it is okay to live in a world where legally you sacrifice your autonomy for the sake of a goal, and that consent to sex is a binding legal contract to that agreement

[@RV-vx9ek]

@@kellmoney709 my bruv, that's one too many characters to say "I hate women". I don't mean that flippantly, it's kinda how you're coming off tbh, I'm sure you actually don't, but it doesn't look good lol.

[@jayburg0621]

The argument destiny brings up about the parents locking their child in a room and starving to death because they no longer concented to "dealing" with their "crybaby" is yet another reason why abortion is sometimes necessary. BECAUSE.. a parent(s) who is okay with harming their child for being a child SHOULD NOT HAVE CHILDREN. With that said, I very much enjoyed hearing about his position and grasp of the subject that so many people lack.

[@spec24]

oh my God, is this argument stupid. So you'll murder the innocent because the parents are shit. Wow.. just wow. You'd fit right in in Nazi Germany.

[@dragan176]

Yeah, but you wouldn't kill a child because their parents shouldn't have them (assuming the fetus is a child)

[@brandygibson7283]

Abortion is absolutely not necessary in this case. Adoption is the answer.

[@ss-ds2dn]

​@@brandygibson7283it's not about what is or isn't an option or answer. It's about who gets to decide.

[@JKenny44]

Eugenics is the best argument for abortion 💯

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

There are actual laws that have allowed children (for example) to emancipate themselves from being used medically to say donate marrow to an ill sibling. In fact there famous examples of this in which a sibling refused, and then had to fight legally, to no longer donating marrow and even organs to an ill sibling. And plot twist - the sick sibling encouraged the other sibling to do just this and stop being forced to donate. These laws already exist; the fact that Destiny *never* discusses the pregnant woman in this situation but only the fetus (when the fetus gains legal personhood the woman loses her legal personhood).

[@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive]

The fact that he didn't shows an understanding that you lack. Parents have responsibilities to their children. Siblings do not.

[@ThodEssmann]

@@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive James, should the Government have the right to force a parent to give one of their kidneys to save their child? For sake of argument, there is no other kidney available and the child will die without a new one. The only genetically compatible kidney is in the parent. Does the Government have the right to step in, force the parent against their will to be anesthetized, taken into a surgery room and have an organ removed? Should this be the law?

[@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive]

@@ThodEssmann Your child? Not someone else's? Yes. And that should remain the case for *_both_* kidneys. And any parent that *_required_* the government to do so, rather than being *_willing_* to die for their child shouldn't be a parent. Being willing to die for your child - presuming they are in fact, still a child and not merely your *_offspring_* - is part of parenthood. This is obvious for the same reasons parents are supposed to risk harm to themselves to protect their children in the event of a home invasion, or, like recently, when there was a shooting at a school, and the parents ran in when the cops would not, all to save their children, all while obviously putting their lives at risk. It is *_your_* views which don't hold up in other circumstances, not mine. Mine hold up all over because they are *_consistent_* and don't have "avoiding responsibility" as the only *_real_* reasoning behind them, however cleverly masked. Think you have a "gotcha" now? Go home. You aren't ready for this.

[@ThodEssmann]

@@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive You really support the Government, through use of force, taking an organ out of an unwilling person. Astounding. What if the child is 30 and the parent 50? The question isn't about morality, love, and caring parents, It is about empowering the Government to forcibly remove organs from an unwilling person.

[@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive]

@@ThodEssmann Strawman and Ad hominem. You have no argument. Also, governments use force to impose on gree will all the time. It is literally the reason for them to exist. To exert force and rob people of their free will. What do you think they're doing when they arrest a criminal? Or shoot a murderer? "Free will" isn't some absolute virtue. What matters is what you are *_doing_* with it. Similarly, violating free will isn't some absolute evil. What matter is why and how and in what context it is happening. Grow up and either engage with the argument I actually made, or fuck off.

[@erikschafer5176]

This is so good. Would have loved to listen to this at college. Super impressive.

[@Person0fColor]

😂 pathetic that you’re super impressed by this breadtube f***** is of no surprise to me. White male recruitment is at an all time historic low and the military establishment is pissing their pants 😂men see people like Vuash and Destiny and think fukkk that 😂

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Good and bad are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@rickyhits6547]

They both debate like actual grown-ups. Very rare