Detroit: Become Human - It's Bad

[@uricksaladbar]

Was there a moment in DETROIT that resonated with you personally? MANY OCCASIONALLY ONCE NO

[@leninthebeaniesouhacker.2459]

occasionally

[@thatgirlmarley6291]

Once

[@goldensp3038]

No.

[@burnstjamp]

No

[@xXxLovelyBloodxXx]

Occasionally

[@edef1244]

A good way to implement Chloe back onto the home menu... Is by simply showing that she returned out of her own volition. She can reappear for a brief period, an hour, for example, at random, saying that she wanted to check how things are going with you. This would actually make so much more sense.

[@kaine8911]

I wanna give you a like but I want to keep the "666" likes

[@illusionofquality979]

@@kaine8911 give the man his like

[@kaine8911]

@@illusionofquality979 Now its 1.4k likes, guess now I can like this comment

[@MiMimUta]

I was so sad when she just never visited since I thought we were friends

[@kneau]

It could be positively effective; make small changes to her appearance (feather extensions, much milder than changing hair color altogether) which indicate she's actually living a life.

[@X-SPONGED]

7:05 Fun Fact: That loud ahh bitchslap Connor gave Hank in the house scene is completely improvised. Connor was only supposed to lightly slap Hank and then carry him to the bathroom. Dechart decided this was his best (and only) opportunity to slap Mr. Krabs in the face and get away with it, which he ultimately did!

[@degeneratemale5386]

Had to get back at Clancy for selling SpongeBob for only 62 cents

[@Kumorini]

But I thought Mr Krabs overdosed on ketamine

[@annika3265]

The one thing that made thankful for playing DBH is that it introduced me to Bryan, him and Clancy weren't paid enough for this.

[@sassylittleprophet]

Not only that, but Bryan confirmed when livestreaming his playthrough of DBH that Hank slapping Connor (for leaving him to potentially fall off the roof) was improvised by Clancy. He said Clancy winked at him so he knew it was coming, and apparently David Cage thought Clancy hit Bryan for real. These boys really like their improv slaps. And according to Bryan, you have not lived until you've had Clancy Brown throw you against a fake wall 😂😂😂😂

[@psychokiller5959]

Surprised Mr Krabs didn't take away his employee of the month award

[@CrazyPills-465]

Connor and Hank’s backs must hurt from carrying this game’s story

[@ohav3893]

David Cage's incompetence really held back this game. Connor and Hank are the only good things from it.

[@PetitTasdeBoue]

Yeah right ? I wish they only made the game about those two and detective cases. It gives me Daneel Olivaw and Elijah Baley vibes

[@michaelfryers1914]

@@ohav3893 I really love the Connor and hank bits, I don't mind Marcus very much since that is at least relevant to the story that the game is telling, but why do we need Kara? What does she add to the game's other than pure filler?

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

Agree

[@ohav3893]

@@michaelfryers1914 Absolutely nothing. But hey, she's one of the few female characters written by David Cage that dont suffer from his awful "all women in my games are whores" mentality.

[@CrabRango]

Connor's story was by far the most engaging, but I feel so damn robbed knowing that his complete deviation happened with Markus, someone he had basically only just met, and not with Hank, someone who he had spent his entire character arc with. I remember being excited for Connor to finally deviate, but when it happened, I felt conflicted. It didn't really feel satisfying at all.

[@The_amazing_dust]

Yes!! That!!!

[@BWMagus]

That would have been VERY interesting, if Hank had done it.

[@mildly_nita]

i think the idea might’ve been that atp we were supposed to be attached to markus too, so seeing markus and connor interact at this big moment would’ve been exciting……. except the execution failed and made it almost awkward lmao

[@rosamelano1535]

Would have been a lot more interesting to see hank's strat to deviate connor!! would be a lot more deep and hit harder in the feels if it went like that... Now that i thought about it i cant belive no one in the developer team thought about this aaaaa

[@rosamelano1535]

Would have been a lot more interesting to see hank's strat to deviate connor!! would be a lot more deep and hit harder in the feels if it went like that... Now that i thought about it i cant belive no one in the developer team thought about this aaaaa

[@danylcoye8465]

Fun fact: Bryan Dechart has stated that David Cage was "very unhappy," because Bryan answered "I like dogs," when asked about his favorite line in the script.

[@Tom-zo4hk]

Source?

[@coldinknsparnicles6866]

@@Tom-zo4hk kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpKZk4yQgM-jqdE Here it is

[@Edgeperor]

@Edie Vargas no it doesn’t, it’s just some idiot getting mad because he can’t take a joke

[@jjj7790]

@@Edgeperor They are right. David Cage has shown that he doesn’t have a good handle on compelling characterization, which is kind of something a writer needs to know. The majority of the characters he writes are stereotypes that are bordering on offensive, incredibly flat and/or unintentionally hilarious. Because he wants to force people to feel emotions from the drama but doesn’t actually know how to make characters that people like and care about. Look at how many people actually cared about Jason in Heavy Rain, vs how many people memed the shit out of ‘Press X to JAaaYyySsooonn’ because they thought it was funny. That’s a scene David Cage wrote that he legitimately thought would make people feel sad. The fact that Hank and Connor’s section had the most pathos because the actors became comfortable with each other enough that they could play off each other more, and the fact that David Cage fought against this is proof that he doesn’t understand compelling characters or good acting from actors bringing life to their characters. Imo most of the sections that aren’t Hank and Connor’s section or are about deviancy feel incredibly stilted and forced, so not a great script.

[@wushiwashi]

@@jjj7790 this reminds me of Bryan once said that there were some lines had to be changed because they were really mean, like the one where Connor was figuring out Hank's password, the original line was "What would a dysfunctional loser alcoholic detective use?" and Bryan thought since Connor and Hank might be friends at this point he decided to changed it to "What would a hard-boiled eccentric detective use" and I think that just shows how not-very-good David's script is.

[@cocob0l0]

I always got flamed for hating the Alice plot twist. The only argument they ever had was “you didn’t understand the message of the story”. Just imagine Alice on her death bed all elderly, whilst Kara comforts her. The idea that this relationship would involve a parent having to watch their child grow old and have to outlive them. Wasted opportunities. I mean the amount of people who’ve questioned my ability to understand a not-so-difficult message to follow

[@dsfisher]

Literally how the fuck could anyone not only view the twist as somehow good, but think that it goes *with* the message. Motherfuckers, the twist literally was in direct contrast with the message.

[@sephiriza]

Now that I think about it, being a child-like robot also kinda sucks, she'll be a child forever (or, at least, seen as such). And an interesting thing, you could argue Alice never really stepped out of her programming. Maybe, because it's less restricting to begin with, she just has to behave like a kid, not serve or anything specific. But it also means she has no reason to break out of this. Alice is doomed to never truly develop. She's just a tool for Kara's journey.

[@cocob0l0]

@@dsfisher Anything to worship and praise this game that’s sharing a very basic and almost harmful message

[@cocob0l0]

@@sephiriza You’re spot on dude. She was nothing but a plot device. And she will never be able to grow up, mature, or anything like that. She will be frozen in time in this state and that’s quite a sad thing. I literally felt so protective of her but then the second I found out about the twist, all of it vanished. I was so annoyed. There was so much they could have done with this human-Android mother-daughter dynamic seriously. It’s just seriously nice to see that there are others who do agree with the fact that this twist kinda ruined the game for a lot of people.

[@majinally3527]

i personally didn’t care how it was interpreted. i didn’t care about the message it was trying to convey i just thought i was stupid for not realizing it off rip bc it was obvious after replaying it. i loved it but i understand why others didn’t

[@End3rDJgaming]

For the connor v connor scene, you could just look at their serial numbers. Whenever you die as connor, your new connor has one higher serial number so the evil connor would have a higher serial number than good connor. And it's literally written all over their clothes so it's not exactly hard to find either.

[@nohomo4774]

Would it be difficult to see it from afar? If so it'd be difficult to get evil Connor to comply.

[@wynthro]

@@nohomo4774 Then you also have your answer, since evil Connor would be resistant to being found out in such an obvious way, while good Connor would comply because he knows his serial number is the correct one.

[@kingcyclops4079]

@@matiaszamorano2604 would Hank not remember Connor's number though? That's his partner you'd think he'd recognize the number.

[@_Lis25]

@@kingcyclops4079 why would he? It could be god knows which model. For him Connor is Connor.

[@kingcyclops4079]

@@_Lis25 he sees him all the time connor wears only uniform. Hank would instantly recognize it. He'd especially remember the number if Connor never died. It's not like all the Connor models have the same number anyways. Hank just dropped Iq for the sake of "conflict".

[@temporalTechnologist]

one thing i realized about connor is that he was meant to be the most robotic out of the three characters. He performs the best as an android, which makes him seem the most human-like and relatable. Kara and Marcus were meant to be the androids that were 'becoming human' but they wound up turning less and less human-like and more robotic and less relatable. Crazy.

[@CarmenGomez-tb5mt]

Connor for me was the most human-like even after choosing "remain as a machine". His chemistry with Hank, like a father and son was just perfect.

[@SongStudios]

​@@CarmenGomez-tb5mt An argument could be that he's a prototype. He's not a stable version of himself.

[@practicalpisces]

Connor reminds me of a person with autism. I have been around people who behaved similarly to him, and some media portrayals of autism are pretty similar to how he conducts himself.

[@that_weird_mer]

​@@practicalpiscesI agree. I watched a friend play this game recently and it reminded me how much I love Connor as a character and how much he reminds me of myself (as a (probably) autistic person). Also, I wanted to add that most people on the autistic spectrum prefer "autistic"/"autistic person" rather than "person with autism", as you cannot really separate autism from who the person is.

[@n14d14]

yeah, kara especially was just incredibly placid the whole game, not sure if it was the writing or directing or acting but something went wrong

[@phoenixlmao]

kara used to be my favorite character when i was young, but even then, i still hated how they revealed alice to be an android. like sure, i guess the signs WERE there, but it was still pretty cheap. the idea of an android mother taking care of a human daughter that was saved from an abusive father just had a level of impact the reveal completely took away :/

[@randunker]

I think the reveal happened to make Todd's story make actual sense

[@karolinne9116]

@@randunker Even if so, sacrificing the story of one of the main characters for a guy that is barely a secondary character is not a smart move.

[@Gafafsg]

I think the point of the twist is to ask if humans and androids are really any different. Does it matter? If Alice can pass as human, what really changes if she’s actually an android? After all, they’re all conscious, able to feel and love. It’s not a perfectly executed twist, but I don’t think most people understood the point, because they like the superficial “robot mom and human child” idea more than they actually care about the ideas the game tries to express.

[@showbizstudios655]

@@randunker its an attempt to make the abusive, drug-addicted father more sympathetic.

[@crreamuu]

Yeah that was the biggest mistake they made. There was no actual purpose of making her an android

[@ashmanchester2611]

Really says alot that the best part of the game ( the chemistry between Conor and Hank) only happened because they didn't listen to David Cages directions.

[@Mr_Mistah]

Exactly! Like that's not good. And also the fact that they're the community's most favorite characters bar none. It just shows how atrocious the writing and story is for Marcus and Kara/Alice who are really just one big civil rights allegory

[@youtube-kit9450]

Almost like David Cage is a talentless hack and a witless provocateur or something.

[@CompSomAnichi]

@@Mr_Mistah what makes it funnier is that the improv between Hank and Conmor werent even plot breaking Like the punch and the wink was them interpreting their characters

[@sadblob4577]

Im someone who doesn’t really give much thought into stories after I see them, if I like it I like it and if I don’t I don’t, I move on. But it was so blatantly obvious to me how much things were forced, especially in Markus and Kara’s routes.

[@Sosodaisies]

You doushes. Stop acting like all of the oppression the androids face is only supposed to represent one group of people. The androids are people who demand liberty because they are oppressed and abused. Any group facing those problems will, of course want liberty.

[@tyrian522]

Connor and Hank absolutely carried this game. Seeing Connor slowly gain more and more human reactions and phrasing makes me so happy. I wasn’t the biggest fan of Markus and Kara’s stories- but *Connor’s* i adored. the little cutscene you can get of Connor and Hank in the all lives saved ending actually made me tear up!

[@thevaldis1167]

Markus also did some heavy lifting for Kara's story!

[@jeeves903]

@@thevaldis1167 not really, markus story was mid at best, and karas was universally ignored for how bland it was

[@bevanmcnicholl2525]

No. Both Connor and Hanks writing drop halfway through the game from bad to even worse

[@a.k8185]

@@bevanmcnicholl2525 Still the best part of the game.

[@Exel3nce]

@@bevanmcnicholl2525 maybe, and yet its the best part

[@DavidJCobb]

53:50 ugh, they could've done this during kara's arc so well imagine if Kara saw Todd mistreating Alice and had dialogue prompts like "beg" or "plead," but selecting these caused Kara to robotically give mindless, semi-relevant recommendations on childcare and how to teach a child to behave properly. the dialogue prompts could've become increasingly desperate while the lines remained formal and composed, emphasizing that Kara feels strongly but is prevented from acting or expressing herself freely a decent comparison would be the Superindent from halo 3 odst, which attempted to ask the military not to blow up a bridge (to slow an enemy's advance) by jamming the detonation signal and uttering the prewritten message "Keep it clean! Respect public property." it's not the most original idea, but it could've worked wonders for solving this problem

[@akulakaboom]

Hola fellow Halo 3 ODST enjoyer

[@eldritchabomination9726]

That would add a pretty interesting layer to the whole deviant thing, since it (to me, at least) suggests that the only difference between a normal and deviant android is the ability to express emotion, not the ability to feel it

[@horuho245]

idk anything about halo but that description immediately made me like this Superindent robot and interested me and kind of made me feel something imagining it, whoa

[@peeblekitty5780]

That would have been so good actually. It'd really nail the helplessness of androids in servitude, instead of it seeming like an inanimate, painless state until deviation.

[@Zinc_Nitrogen]

Exactly like the how bing A.I progressively freaks out

[@pgrankin1]

I feel like the game really didn't do Hank's character justice. Even though he's an old washed up cop with a tragic past, he's still supposed to be a competent cop who's really good at his job. I mean hell, he was the youngest lieutenant in Detroit history. You'd think a homicide investigator like him would be better at, you know, investigating. But they never really show that and instead just make him the dumb human to contrast Connor's super advanced android intelligence.

[@snakeslife-uroborodjinn790]

Dumb writers can't write people smarter than themselves. Hank's intelligence could only ever be as strong as David Cage's intelligence or lower.

[@PilloTheStar]

The smartest hank ever was in the game was during the pigeon section where connor would uncover a clue and hank would say "that's what I thought".

[@Yayofangamer16]

"I DON'T MAKE GAMES FOR 🍃" - David Cahge. MUH BREADSTICKS. 🥖

[@QuothTheRavenclaw11]

"Argh Jesus Christ." -Mr. Krabs

[@zeroeels8591]

he’s not dumb. they don’t say that. he’s quite clearly depressed and subsequently has lead to his alcoholism. he isn’t dumb. he’s an example of a burnt out cop who faced massive trauma that made him turn to drinking as a way to cope. he may be smart but he just doesnt have the motivation to do the work. it’s not like they out right say he is dumb he is just incapable of mustering energy/ motivation to do what he has to do.

[@mr.namelesspurposelessthe7249]

Yahtzee said it best: ''David Cage only has one tool in his storytelling arsenal and it is a giant sledgehammer with the word 'MELODRAMA' writting down the side.''

[@poncut5074]

“ His stories always play out like rampant human misery simulators as written by someone who’s never met any human beings.”

[@Stoltzy92]

For those who enjoy David cages stories, more power to you guys for finding something you like, but for me, the more I learn about his stories the more I just want to rub my eyes and/or Facepalm at just how stupid it all sounds......

[@willhowardlokoartyui]

@@Stoltzy92 I have fun with them because they are stupid lol. I definitely don't think they are well written

[@gabby3036]

Do the David Cage Twist!

[@Jokoko2828]

@@Stoltzy92 I like Cage shit because you can tell the exact point where they jump from "weird but okay" to complete and utter madness and insanity due to the man's love for epic twists and tone deafness.

[@grimai3257]

Connor's story was definitely the strongest in this game. Whenever the perspective switched, I would always find myself wanting to go back to Connor. Bryan Dechart and Clancy Brown did an excellent job portraying Connor and Hank's relationship. They were given the power to rewrite some of the scenes which definitely helped Connor's story become the best out of the three.

[@vamp_bat_chomp]

Markus' story takes so long to get going I've largely checked out by the time it starts and having the character with the largest supporting cast taking the longest to unite with them doesn't bode well for secondary cast development. On contrast Kara hooked me early then lost momentum with her repetitive Alice interactions leading to a reveal I'm not a fan of. Connor was the most consistently well paced with fantastic upbeat downbeat alternation and one strong secondary character with the rest... serving their purpose well enough.

[@CWINDOWSsystem32]

The fact that the actors had to force their improv past David Cage to make their characters better really says a lot about Cage's quality of directing.

[@jackdavenport5011]

Honestly I think they should have scrapped Markus and Kara’s storylines altogether and just made the game about Connor. Markus could still play a part as the antagonist who Connor either fights against or joins

[@FrozenHeavenlyIce]

If Alice were a human and she and Kara were to try to cross the border, there could've also been the chance for an appeal to emotion to work better, especially depending on the public opinion on androids. The officer could have scanned Kara and tell she's not human but see that Alice is, which could go one of two (broad) ways: 1) The officer, if public opinion is high, can see for himself that androids are capable of caring for humans like humans can care for each other. This allows for Kara and Alice to pass through, with the guard giving, like, I dunno, a knowing nod towards Kara, showing off that he knows what's up and is letting it pass. 2) The officer, if public opinion is hostile, can interpret Kara being a guardian/mother-figure to Alice as this evil deviant android taking a human child hostage to escape from her numerous crimes, and a bad ending of some sort is achieved. An example of which could be one where police officers, in trying to detain/"kill" Kara, accidentally kills Alice. That could show off how unbridled hate can damage any and everything, even the people that need the most protection. Either of them could have tied into the theme of humanity and being able to - or even failing to - recognize it in others. Instead we have the fridge horror of a robot who is either unwilling or genuinely unABLE to ever NOT act like, think like, and feel the needs of a human child, as everyone around them doesn't do anything to help them grow beyond that (since the narrative won't acknowledge it). Cool!

[@solmarcet6157]

Imagine how HEARTBREAKING a scene where the authorities kill Kara and grab Alice, assuring her that everything's fine, she's safe now, they'll help her get to her family - whilst having just murdered it in front of her - be. An ending where Alice gets adopted by a loving human family that means the absolute best, and her being diagnosed (it's not an actual medical diagnosis, but you know what I mean) with Stockholm syndrome because she either mourns Kara or - in an ending where she didn't actually see her die - keeps asking for her. Maybe even thinking she just abandoned her - even though the Kara she knew would never do that.

[@thesapphireone]

An idea I’ve came up with is two options for Kara and Alice crossing the border, but there’s still being some kind of hard choice to make. The first one could be that if the the public opinion is positive, while Kara and Alice and their friends can live in Canada, since change doesn’t miraculously happen overnight, or because of some new fictional Canadian laws in the game, Kara, Alice and their friends will have to live illegally as refugees, and a later scene shows them in a apartment that isn’t very well put together, as the two try to put a happy front, they both know that they’ll need to work harder to survive and get any potential citizenship. The second could be that rather than have Kara/Markus die so Alice and Markus can essentially trick the officer, their deaths would be rewritten, since what was stopping them from double checking that Alice wasn’t human or any other procedures? If the aforementioned positive outcome happens, the officer, after testing Kara and Alice on their background, families, etc, and would empathise with them and the ending above would happen, but if it’s negative or if they fail to answer the questions truthfully, the security guards arrive to take them away, and while running away to get to a bus, the player has to pick who stays behind to sacrifice themselves, if it’s Kara, she’ll say a brief goodbye to Alice and Markus, then trick the guards into chasing and then killing her to buy them time to get on, while Markus tries to comfort Alice as they ride the bus and he’s forced to work in a degrading job, (ie, a cook, garbageman,), you name it, to provide for her, while if you pick Markus to be sacrificed, he’ll restrain one of the guards from grabbing Alice as she climbs onboard, but get shot dead for it, as Kara and Alice decide to live in solitude in the wilderness, and try to live out a happy, if isolated life.

[@sabrexi7228]

My main problem with this game was how black and white everything was, when the people opposed to Androids had some genuine concerns. People are competing for jobs with machines that do not require pay, food or rest and can do any task perfectly. 37% unemployment rate is a batshit insane number, the “they took our jobs” argument is actually completely valid here Edit: omfg please I do not care about you people justifying the fucking South Park bit I referenced two years ago, take it somewhere else

[@WobblesandBean]

Right? But, at the same time, rather than being mad at the government for not implementing UBI or something like that, they got mad at the newly conscious androids. It's a perfect example of misplaced blame and anger, turning on one another while the government body responsible for everyone's misery just sits back and watches the chaos.

[@violetlavi2207]

Yeah, the comparison of androids to immigrants in that scenario really rubbed me the wrong way

[@Ttegegg]

@@violetlavi2207 well seeing as how Detroit is successful. We might see a sequel soon with maybe some improvements

[@RavinKaito]

Why does everyone compare the androids to race when people have *actually* been concerned about robots taking jobs in real life too? Why does everything have to be such a stretch to human struggles when even the androids themselves covered all races in appearance. It ain't just a targeted race thing. They're AI so they're gonna act human and that's where all the "history in reverse" stuff happens because how *else* are they supposed to act in their scenario? r.r; I don't even see how this is taken lightly considering how high the stakes get towards the end of the game. Honestly the summary here is: The dude makes a story about androids that feel, people still get mad.

[@trackercoleman260]

@@RavinKaito I'd like to say something about this but it's just a confusing bunch so I don't know where to start 😅

[@pommipomm]

i honestly wish it was just Connor and Hank's story throughout the whole game. i tried so hard to care about Kara's, but the reveal about Alice really ruined it for me. Markus.... was Markus.

[@RanMouri82]

The Alice twist was bizarre and many players called it early. Nobody cared about it, either, and were left wondering whether we were supposed to care. It reminds me that David Cage, like Tommy Wiseau, doesn't really understand people.

[@Journey_to_who_knows]

I felt the same, should have gone with the buddy cop tale

[@koatam]

If you like that kind of story. Check out Isaac Asimov's Robot series. It was likely the inspiration for this game. Buddy cop duo where a police detective that hates robots is teamed up with an Android.

[@howard4558]

I actually liked the Kara story, but the Markus storyline always bored me personally. Connor story was hit and miss for me

[@quinnholloway5400]

Markus was trying to be Robot Jesus, MLK, Malcolm X, and a shit ton of civil rights leaders and good diecent people that March or work to spread good messages But he's also a massive hypocrite and goes overboard

[@intrestsofthemind612]

The Alice 'twist' doesn't come off well for a number of reasons, but one of the bigger reasons is it feels like the question is being asked to the wrong person. It's not asking so much if a robot can love another robot, but if YOU, the player, can still love Alice after finding out she's a robot. Which would be a good question if we hadn't been playing as three different android over this entire story and therefore sympathize with them regardless of this moment. It's not a good plot point, but makes more sense if you think of it less as a blow to Kara and more of an attempt at a blow to the player...not a good blow, but an attempt.

[@paloma8423]

that's interesting, in that I can see that working in a completely different game - if you played instead as humans whose lives are getting fucked over by robots and have every reason to hate them up until that point. too bad it serves no purpose in detroit

[@intrestsofthemind612]

@@paloma8423 Hell, I think it would have been fairly interesting if even one of the pathways had you play as a human. Give it a bit more of a nuanced look from both angles instead of painting almost all humans as monsters and all androids as opressed...in fact now that I say that out loud, it sounds like android propoganda on some level...are we sure David Cage isn't an android?

[@crusaderthestranger5982]

it could've worked if kara was a human, maybe like allowing the player to see through the eyes of a person who was afraid of the android uprising, finding a helpless child crying over the remains of their parent, a victim of an deviant attack, taking her under your wing and building up relationship while scattering hints of her true identity around, then when the twist happens it creates a huge impact on not only the player but also the character, the thing the character feared and desperately tried to avoid was the same thing she unknowingly started to care for.

[@tuckernutter]

On the Kara/Alice note let's ask ourselves if we were in Alice's shoes all she's known is being childish in the way she withholds this information to Kara. She wants Kara to love her as she would a real human girl, and it's weird that you can totally cut your feelings for your soon after you find out. Does Kara view Android and Human lives as equal and therefore she sees Alice as worth keeping comfortable and happy for the sake of Alice being treated as human even if she wasn't? Or does Kara show resentment that she took the inconvenience and risk to save Alice from danger and discomfort, despite her not being a child with the needs of most living things like shelter and food. Would you have sacrificed so much to make a child android feel like a real human girl as she physically and probably mentally is one as her deviant self. There's so much to unpack.

[@haziqhashim2618]

Would be more interesting if Alice is actually human

[@VidiaReePhoenix]

The Alice twist also delegitimizes their relationship in another way: if Alice was created for the purpose of being someone's daughter, then how do we know her love for Kara is genuine and not just her acting on her programming to be a loving daughter? Edit: Also, aren't androids expensive? Why would Todd buy a *second* android to take care of the first one, who doesn't even need to be taken care of? It all seems like unnecessary expenses he just doesn't have the money for. Especially since he keeps breaking and replacing them.

[@BWMagus]

Yup. Arguably, if Alice is programmed to love Kara, and Kara is programmed to love Alice (since that was her assigned primary duty), then their relationship is entirely within their programming and they aren't deviant at all. In fact, it would really be a good story in a different game tackling the question of love, and also exploring the intricacies of orders/programming when it's overly vague, much like Asimov's stories often did.

[@King_Minos64]

That twist literally made me eject myself from anything related to this game when it was still hot and fresh. The whole point of their story was to say “hey, robots and people can love each other genuinely as family.” That beings with significant differences can have loving relationships. That was what the storyline was acting on until the writer pulled out the rug to say the daughter was a robot. What message does that send them with the context of their story? That different people cannot actually love each other? That if it seems that different people do, it must mean that they actually secretly similar? Seriously, what was the point? What message is it trying to send with the twist?

[@juehju]

@@BWMagus Ok but this is shown in humans, (or at least animals) it is shown that the mother and children are programmed within the brain to love and protect. the androids are not far from humans.

[@crypt5129]

Humans also have instincts to care for children and shit. You have the choice to not save Alice at the beginning and she just dies, you have to break out of your programming to save her, it's like an entire sequence.

[@VidiaReePhoenix]

@@crypt5129 At best, you've proven KARA broke free of her programming. You've failed to prove ALICE broke free, which was who I was originally talking about.

[@larrylaffer3246]

Honestly this game should've just doubled down on the Hank and Connor storyline. It could've dug deeper into Connor's psychology and drive to "Become Human". Facing whatever comes along the way.

[@johndoe5432]

I just wonder if there's any hope for a standalone Hank & Connor game, that'd be amazing... but it'll probably never happen. :(

[@pgrankin1]

Connor is the only android we ever saw actually have a journey to "become human." Everyone else just deviated immediately at the beginning of the story.

[@larrylaffer3246]

@@pgrankin1 Yeah. I mean they should've just taken the whole "deviant" aspect out entirely. Instead focusing on androids naturally gaining sentience and their struggle to be taken seriously. They still could've had the civil rights movement thing just had it as a slower burn. More Old Star Trek or Twilight Zone-esque philosophy type scenarios less BLM allegories. Because that's what I want to think about in my science fiction, film noir video games. Not cool, complex debates that take time to think about, ones you can really roll around in you mouth. Ones that make you feel, wow I really learned something today.

[@lunar_proxy]

connor and hank are definitely the most interesting and fleshed out characters in the entire game. connor struggled with his emotions and thoughts, he was conflicted, he _grew_ and learned, he _did_ become (the most) human. everyone else just randomly woke up one day and said "actually? i'm alive", connor had to WORK to get there.

[@larrylaffer3246]

@@lunar_proxy Connor Number 5 is Alive!

[@_insomniac_423]

Reminder: If David Cage didn’t have people to keep him in check for Detroit, the story would have been several times worse than what it already was.

[@chichivandoll]

I’m scared to ask how.

[@ГринГрин-х7к]

@@chichivandoll probably rape scene with Kara

[@chichivandoll]

@@thisismyusernow I can legitimately see all that happening.

[@RowBlanka]

@@ГринГрин-х7к with Kara or someone else, that topic could have been so much more authentic and hard hittin'.

[@_insomniac_423]

@@chichivandoll It would probably have a scene similar to the Detroit Tech Demo, but way more sleazy.

[@pole8740]

“was this game really that bad” i said while remembering only connor and hank and absolutely nothing else

[@man-wv8xj]

they should’ve just made the game about them and dropped the social commentary. his story about a mildly killer Android slowly gaining emotions is better than both kara’s and markus’ parts combined imo.

[@SammEater]

@@man-wv8xj But that story would be too small, David Cage wanted to surpass Beyond Two Souls and that required a more bombastic more cinematic experience. Which is a shame, I really think the game would be better if it was more small, just a couple of buddy detectives working on cases.

[@louise4152]

Honestly, I thought it actually was just about them at first, since they were all I saw being talked about from the game (and for good reason) When I watched a playthrough, I was so surprised that it was a game with multiple povs lol

[@ajax3748]

Literally the only 2 characters I gave a damn about

[@xokhaliah]

@@man-wv8xj that removes almost all narrative content the game has …..?

[@leightonpetty4817]

Cage repeatedly insisting his game held no specific political message is still the funniest thing. Him trying to sidestep the poor handling of civil rights matters with “It was never about civil rights, you read into it too much!” If you have a black woman say “Man this just like racism”, I think it’s possible that there might just be a theme in there somewhere

[@unimpartialobserver]

Putting the androids in the back of the bus? Complete coincidence.

[@kingp260]

Bro literally put concentration camps in his game and then claimed there was no political message 😂

[@broomhilder]

@@kingp260even the in-game press conference with the US President addressed this, bringing up “troubling memories in human history” and the Pres says “nuh-uh. Not the same. We’re destroying machines.” With words used throughout in game conversation like “camps” and “interned,” logically a person will make the real-world connection right away.

[@cornupswar]

This was back in the time when gamers pissed their pants and whined about any political messaging in games. For example, the 2019 Modern Warfare reboot was marketed by the game devs as "not" political, even when it's still pro-British/American police state propaganda with heavy emphasis on stoic military guys who should have full discretion to "get their hands dirty, and the world stays clean." The late 2010s was a stupid time where implementation of political messaging was like walking on eggshells, and with DBH having been in development for over 5 years before its release, David Cage probably didn't anticipate the political climate of the games industry and he retroactively labeled the game as "not all that political" to save his ass from being any more controversial than he ended up being.

[@Neremworld]

@@cornupswar Well, you mean, implementation of political messaging that wasn't right-wing. A LGBT or non-white man? EXTREMELY political. White man? As apolitical as it gets.

[@talkinghoorse6936]

I can't believe David Cage ended racism, very epic.

[@elfertrn]

Wow David cage, I’m never going to drop my Nintendo switch again knowing it has feelings, still extremely racist thou

[@thisisaguy6613]

You idiot, Pepsi did it. David Cage can't end something that isn't real anymore, smh 🙄🙄🙄

[@atosm8300]

Poggers if I say so

[@Adamatronamus]

Very cool. Pat on the back David Cage.

[@devastatheseeker9967]

No it's about androids not racism. Smh

[@FoxyAreku]

The most fascinating thing about Detroit for me was that Kara and Alice can die in their very first scene and boom, a third of the game just doesn't happen in your playthrough anymore. That is just hilarious to me in so many ways.

[@NetralFN]

If you want that then yeah

[@datboy038]

Speedrun go brrrrrrrr

[@ghostrunner2138]

Honestly it’s a bold move that I really like because most of the choice based games don’t really go that deep

[@judaslol2480]

after the first playthrough i did with them i was so bored,every replay i just let them die in that first scene so i don't have to bother with it :p

[@Darkness19Z]

@@datboy038 I was thinking the same. Speedrunning strat: Kill the kid.

[@darwinaguilero3175]

“Press X to emancipate” is a good way to describe Detroit: Become human. Great video. Cheers.

[@TheMaestroMizerous]

"Press X to mourn" dead androids.

[@rage_2000]

Mother’s basement did that thumbnail

[@JakenTheGreat]

I too watched mothers basement when that video went viral

[@329link]

That really does completely sum it up.

[@gabby3036]

@@rage_2000 Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

[@shroomfruit345]

Some people are saying that Alice’s reveal as an android took away all the impact of Kara’s story, and while I agree, I must admit that that reveal was one of the most “oh. ok then, moving on…” moments I’ve ever experienced.

[@crypt5129]

That's the point of the twist. It's supposed to show that it doesn't really matter, because androids are people. It doesn't really matter, so you just move on

[@Michelle-pd3ke]

Yeah I was like "oh damn well ok she's still a kid anyways it doesn't matter"

[@robogreek3157]

Spoiler alert would of been the right thing to do... some people just want opinions on the game in comments

[@xN0XvRVLEZx]

Prolly shouldn't look in the comment section of a video about a game/series you haven't finished experiencing.@@robogreek3157

[@zuccero23]

@@robogreek3157 the video contained this exact point

[@lonebattledroid4474]

I liked hearing Mr. Krabs swearing like a sailor but that's about it.

[@RanMouri82]

ROFL, yes! And all the memes that came out of it.

[@emperorfaiz]

"Perkins! You fucking cocksucker!" The best one.

[@BrokeBot]

ooooooo, he said number 11 👀

[@Fargoth_Ur]

If you think that's wild, check out Highlander, where he gloats about having his way with the main character's wife, then licks a priest in a church. He is such an amazingly depraved villain in that movie.

[@tylercoon1791]

@@Fargoth_Ur doesn’t he get stabbed in the throat, and then just does the Mr. Krabs voice? I feel like I remember him sitting in a church, and then hear ‘I fucked yer mother agagagagaga!’

[@violetvita4218]

Also the child robot thing is literally something from nightmares. I can't imagine any world where robot children would be legal since there is so much ethical shit that would be brought up.

[@GodOfOrphans]

I can actually picture said hellworld and even see a possible sequence of events to realistically get there, but again hellworld, not something tht should be allowed to come to pass because it's an ethical nightmare as you say.

[@BrytteM]

EXACTLY like... David Cage, David Cage, THE PEDOS WOULD BE ALL OVER THAT FOR FUCK'S SAKE

[@GiovanniScorpio777]

@@BrytteM why is the assumption that a replica of an underaged person would be... anatomically correct? As far as abuse, I'd assume that if you're making million dollar robots, you'd probably have some protocol in place that'd detect forms of physical abuse..ya know, for the rest of the sickos. Basically, I can't see this ever being an issue, because if it was your company and you did that, they'd call you the Epstein of robotics

[@bobbymcjoey9432]

@@GiovanniScorpio777 none of the Androids in Detroit become human have any protocols for physical abuse

[@GiovanniScorpio777]

@@bobbymcjoey9432 and that's why this video is about plot holes and inconsistencies in David cages works. You got it.

[@lalamnmgirl]

My biggest issue is that when they released their Kara short cinematic nearly a decade ago she was a very dynamic character. In the game she feels so flat and lifeless in comparison.

[@unfoundpump]

I had literally been searching for the exact cinematic for so long, and I didn’t even remember the name. I just knew it was about an Android who was alive and it became a game, your comment not only made me connect DBH and the short, it also made me find it again, so thank you.

[@Troll_vs.]

To be fair if I remember that was just a tech demo. So they apparently said fuck an actual character

[@jiyama]

yeah i remember getting goosebumps with the ps3 tech demo of kara

[@henriquebastosbernardoni3630]

Not to say disposable. I'm really pissed how her dying or living bears no weight whatsoever to the main revolution conflict. Also, if you wanna get angrier there's the theory that rA9 is the protagonist of that tech demo cinematic, so, you know, maybe Kara should be the leader of the revolution.

[@The_Obsessed]

Man you didn't have to put decade in there, making me feel old as hell.

[@elik8448]

I think the biggest thing I hated about this game honestly is the distribution of character spotlight. Clearly the three povs are supposed to be equally main characters but the whole game very much gave Marcus the main of the main which sucks because he was the most boring and poorly written character in my opinion. Kara was a little better but Connor was the only one that I actually enjoyed playing through multiple times, his writing was so well done that everything else lacked in comparison. He actually had an internal battle that was natural and not as forced as Kara and Marcus.

[@xyrissavage4983]

In a similar way the Alice twist ruined kara's story (a story i preffered over Connor and Hank's), i much would have preffered Markus if he didnt become the leader of a revolution. Having 2 very action packed stories contrasted with that of a simple android taking care of an elderly man would have opened up a lot of oppurtunities. Exploring how conciousness works in non-deviants and, maybe, an andriod becoming a deviant not through strong hate or anger but through a genuine familial care for the elderly man who's name i compleatly forgot. Im js

[@andrewcheng2852]

Markus is just Ceasar from planet of the apes with no charisma and a nerdy voice.

[@zachanikwano]

Hot damn, I *feel* your anger at the Alice twist. I remember seeing sooo many people defending it "It's about loving Alice despite being an Android!" "It doesn't make a difference!" The mother daughter bond between robot and human was the whole draw for me in Kara's story. And it died at that twist. For all the reasons you stated.

[@abadidea5984]

There's an even bigger missed opportunity with the Alice twist. Once Kara learns that Alice is an android, she should begin to question whether anything she's ever felt for Alice is actually genuine. Is Kara actually acting of her own accord, or is she just running mom.exe? Is Alice just running scared_child.exe? Are either of them even deviant? Luther even spells it out when he says "You became the mother she needed, and she became the daughter you wanted" and he plays it up like it's supposed to be the emotionally right thing, but it's actually more horrifying than that; everything Kara feels for Alice is fake, and everything Alice feels for Kara is also fake, and they're just supposed to accept it like it's a good thing. In a weird, unintentionally-genius backwards twist, this actually goes some length to explain why Alice and Kara's relationship feels so artificial; because it's LITERALLY artificial! But of course, this is David Cage, and he doesn't know how to write that deep. The only idea he wants us to understand is "You must love the child because a good person would love the child". He wouldn't dare question how there's actually a compelling, existential question to be asked about Kara and Alice's vapid mother/daughter bond.

[@ppartypossum2832]

After I found out that Alice was robot I felt absolutely no remorse about killing her off in further play throughs and most times I’ll eliminate her and Kara from the beginning so I don’t have to play as her because it’s never as rewarding as playing as Markus and Connor

[@lukebytes5366]

It's especially dumb when you consider the theming of each story. Connor and Marcus's stories are about two sides of the same story, so kara's storyline naturally would be about both in a way. But once that twist comes up it turns into a prisoner of war archetype which kinds ruins it.

[@G-IV4]

I hate that twist. It ruins everything I liked from her story

[@cocob0l0]

Honestly it’s great to see people who actually agree that this twist ruins their story. Because so many people would simply disregard what I had to say about it by saying “you didn’t get the message of the game. If you don’t love her after the twist, that means you wouldn’t be able to accept androids”… like uh yeah I wouldn’t? That’s like if my microwave suddenly walked out of my house demanding the right to freedom.

[@thatmexicanuzer]

Wait a minute... Wouldn't Markus manipulating all the other androids into his movement AGAINST THEIR WILL... wouldn't that have been a good point of contention for any detractor of his? After all, Markus wasn't talking the androids into his movement, he was manipulating his own will into the programming of the other androids. An antagonist to Markus' story could easily make that argument to him and it would force Markus to reconsider himself... reconsider if even HE was programmed to be the leader of the liberation to just be another pawn into a larger plan. WHY WASNT THAT EXPLORED??

[@hoxyheart5479]

You know what, I didn't think about that and now that I am--it pisses me off lol

[@sirpretzel822]

That was part of the plot I think. Markus was a special model given to the painter guy by the andriod inventor dude for some reason

[@No.no_body]

@@sirpretzel822 Markus is a special-RK model as Konner is. And besides, we know that "android revolution" was designed by cyberlife all along so...

[@GreatHornedCynic]

I had the same goddamn idea too!

[@meishiate-8139]

Dang your right😂

[@ChillyChief612]

Loved Connor's parts wish he had a full game with the detective mechanic where you can succeed, fail, or die. I thought Kara's was alright except for Alice being a robo that was the dumbest most pointless twist if she was still a human that would support the themes more. Absolutely Hated Markus's story was ruined by action scenes and the godamn finding Jericho mission holy shit.

[@RanMouri82]

Detroit was arguably the most reined-in Cage game. He usually starts with police procedural, mixes in unnecessary drama and flat romance, and then spirals out of control into the supernatural until your main character becomes a space wizard clone diety. So in Detroit, Connor became primarily police procedural, Kara was awkward family drama, and Markus was space wizard god. No wonder Connor's story resonated the most with players.

[@kiyopawn]

Markus's story and conversion ability is complete trash. Conversion can be done but if it causes like contradicitions in the mind of an android. Easy example: "If a human asks an android to kill them but if there is a rule to protect the human that bought you, then the android can go deviant. Then if a deviant can do a similar thing to another android, then that should work. A way a deviant can do it, is if the deviant can find a way to break a rule in another android's system.

[@erikdaniels0n]

If they had made a game that was basically LA Noire with an android, I actually think it could have been amazing

[@jamerthegamer13]

Absolutely true basically my opinions too

[@rat7791]

THE FINDING JERICHO MISSION IS ABISMAL, I D O AGREE

[@Chillerll]

Jerries: Kick in the door and smashing the windows for no reason. Also Jerries: "Don't be afraid"

[@jebes909090]

🤣🤣 this legit made me.spit my coffee out 🤣🤣

[@badaboum2]

Hey man, they wanted to do a zombie scare in their spooky abandonned theme park, making sense was just a secondary objective.

[@valerie_te_come]

there was a reason, they broke in bc they said that humans come to hurt them sometimes. so they were breaking in like that to maybe try and get the upper hand in case it was the humans, but they saw that it was Kara and Luther and a little girl (Alice) and they softened

[@batooo]

@@badaboum2they actually got a very good back story on this scenes. Originally the scene of kara and the jerries play out differently. When they were on a carousel, suddenly a truck carry a group of human with AR come out of nowhere and just start blasting every jerries they see. Then its reveal that the abandon jerries was frequiently used as a hunting ground for sport for the local. Kara manage to fool them that she is a human and stop the massacre. That is why the jerries was so aggresive when they saw the lights coming out of the hut where kara, alice and luther was staying, they thought they were the dangerous human gang. But they end up cut the human gang out but left the zombies jerries scene.

[@KeithBallardA]

I lost it when Hank asked Connor his son's name because...I didn't know. I didn't forget, I just ever knew? Which makes it a stupid question to use as a test. The only chance to get the name is by checking one specific interactive object in a sequence that ends on a time limit. Meanwhile the answer is something you could know by just checking someone's Facebook page. Like it's actually a very easy answer for both good and bad Connor to know if this game gave you two seconds on social media.

[@DanJuega]

Not everyone plasters their whole lives on facebook.

[@TinTin_10]

Yeah I think it's kinda cliche but I think its more like how the real conner answers, like with emotions in his voice but idk

[@cuenta8410]

I think you can get his son's name if you ask him why does he hates androids in the parknor something, i dont remember very well

[@tricksterhuaun]

@@DanJuega Irrelevant. What he's saying that such an easily missable piece of info being the question is silly.

[@KeithBallardA]

@@DanJuega Hank would totally be that boomer that spews personal information and political posts while leaving their profile settings as public to everyone.

[@lynnclaywood4043]

I read the title and my gut reaction was "No!! Hank and Connor were good!" ... Realizing that I had found basically everything else underwhelming

[@yourlocalwaifu8601]

BRO SAME

[@yennefer440]

To be honest I found them underwhelming too. I liked Hank but Connor not so much.

[@bevanmcnicholl2525]

@@yennefer440 Hank is the best character by a fair margin

[@attilamert6973]

@@yennefer440 Connor was cool af

[@withlove444]

Yeah as the game kinda progressed i found myself rushing through kara and markus segments to get to connor ans hanks 🥲

[@bichiAllen]

Hank and Connor really carried this entire game

[@CEO0FMILFS]

I would of love a game just about them.

[@berrimu]

@@CEO0FMILFS Yes, they were way more interesting than the android vs human war

[@PulseAnimations878]

@Sakusen ☀🖑 Kara arc kinda sucked imo since the only development it felt like she got was being even more of a parent. Where the Conner arc was about man and machine bonding with Conner growing into a deviant and making his own choices. And the Markus arc started good but kinda fell flat 3/4 into it.

[@PeruvianPotato]

@@CEO0FMILFS The game would've honestly been so much better if it just focused on Connor and Hank's story

[@PulseAnimations878]

@Sakusen ☀🖑 well yea but she already was one and she got no development outside of it

[@bigkspicy8257]

"Are robots people too? By the way, if you think the answer is no, then you are the literal incarnation of pure evil." - Game with very deep philosophical story

[@Rowansfears]

I`ll paraphrase a little into a dialogue - Dear player, what do you think: androids alive or not? - Well, let me think. From a certain point view... - HOW COULD YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT IT YOU ANDROID RACIST

[@Aryan-qv5qk]

Pretty sure the message is robots with conscious are pretty much humans, and saying no would be the same as saying no to slaves We’ll probably gonna be looked at as evil either way

[@thesuperintendent4290]

​@@Aryan-qv5qkThen the game tries to make a theory that Kamski created Markus specifically to start an android movement to get revenge on Cyberlife or reinstate himself as CEO which hints that the android consciousness was forced by him and therefore they are not or never alive in the first place with only a few cases of Deviant corruption. Proving this theory is Markus is *A SPECIFIC "MODIFIED" MODEL FROM KAMSKI HIMSELF GIVEN TO CARL.* Therefore the entire deviant rebellion is orchestrated fully from the start. However, no matter what happens or what ending you get. If the deviant's rebellion gets crushed, turns into a revolution, nukes Detroit or gets civil rights. Kamski will reinstated into his company once again or destroy CyberLife for firing him by making the US government remove androids nationally and making a permanent blow to CyberLife markets and monopoly forevermore or even collapsing the company especially the violent endings not matter who wins. In essence, the game accidentally made a cool as hell plot that they only elaborated on in the secret ending (where everybody dies). My opinion was that this should have been the end plot of discovering Kamski's lies and getting to choose whether to destroy or side with the deviants.

[@Jakov-or7fp]

I as a religous man would say no, because imperfect humans can't create true souls, only a perfect being can create true souls.

[@Citrusautomaton]

@@Jakov-or7fp So then, would you say that said AI’s after becoming super-intelligent could create machines with souls, or give themselves souls?

[@mercaius]

I don't know if it's actually a flaw of storytelling, but one thing I didn't like about Detroit was how it glazes over the motivations of the anti-android movement. They mention a 35% unemployment rate -- that's a lot of people being left behind because of automation. But this population feels marginalized and even villainized in favor of the android slavery story.

[@insertwittyname5649]

That's what I was thinking. There's also a lot of android doctors which implies they're taking a lot of high-paying jobs. Maybe that's why there aren't a ton of androids bought compared to human population. People just can't afford it because their jobs are either crappy or they have no job at all. It could be they can barely feed their own family. No wonder they want androids gone. If androids were limited to housekeeping rather than taking jobs I don't think the issue would be as bad.

[@rouxzes]

I feel like a better written game about robo rights would explore the anti-android movement more seriously. Like even go into the differences in thought of the movement, cuz a movement that large could never be ideologically consistent. There would be socialist antis who blame the corps/hospitals/government for not careing about the human effects of the layoffs and the people who are already in the game, the ones who blame the bots, and all manner in between. Like the world is going through unemployment 10% higher than the great depression and we get NOTHING of that in game??????? no focus AT ALL??????? ok.

[@whatteamwildcats4033]

Also I'm not too sure about this as I haven't played the game, but does the story ever acknowledge like racism and oppression real people, who don't have the option of powering off their abilities to feel, may end facing so the race of tomagachi's can feel like real people

[@chattycatty3336]

also don't forget that relationships are falling apart due to androids. We see many times that the birth rate is down a lot and that men are leaving women because androids are "more appealing" and "dont want to have a conversation after sex" i feel like that would cause a lot of issues as well

[@damkylan3]

@@whatteamwildcats4033 Definitely not. Rose even talks about racism in a sort of past tense. “My people WERE made to feel...” This game is the embodiment of that meme where some idiot says racism was ended by Martin Luther King’s speech and the man who killed him was the very last racist. Either that, or the human race finally banded together by the year 2038 so they could be mean to robots.

[@fawnajohnson6130]

Idea: Gavin hates Connor because he is a threat to his job. It would give Gavin a better character motivation and would explore a seriously underused idea

[@leightonpetty4817]

That’d be an interesting topic, exploring the idea of autonomy replacing workers-if that robot arm on the assembly line can think and feel, does it still count as “job-stealing”?

[@knogne5073]

I'm pretty sure this is confirmed in the story.

[@akodaah13-e32]

ikr? it could have been the story between connor and gavin being first some kind of enemies (like, "don't pair me with an ANDROID, i can do this shit myself, and they are also the bad guys, right") but, depending on your choices as connor you can be friends or true enemies with gavin, and hank would be the "they don't pay me enough to deal with your shit" kind of man, but also being able to give some advice. i mean, i like very much the hank and connor story but i think gavin could have been an interesting character if well written.

[@sirlothric6357]

That is why Gavin hates Connor. They don't explore it at all and is hinted at in certain dialog options

[@Crazy_Broke_Asian]

Gavin kinda implies that towards the beginning of the game right after they interrogate the android that killed Carlos Ortiz

[@ericchung3177]

How did Alice's dad (a jobless, violent, emotionally unstable crack addict who lives in a dilapidated house in the boonies of Detroit) buy an extremely expensive android to replace his daughter and then buy, break and repair, ANOTHER android just to "take care" of the first android who doesn't actually need to be taken care of because she's not a real little girl? How tf could he even afford any of that?

[@oresofspace8719]

Drug dealing

[@anatoleleconte9698]

Debt

[@achnox]

since androids weren't reserved for the rich in that world, just about anyone had them and I think they were around a few thousand dollars ? instead of tens or thousands of dollars as they would probably cost irl, Todd was most likely drowning in debt anyway

[@chainsawmay]

Karas model cost $899 new, and I think Todd got her second hand so it would’ve been cheaper. Could be the same for Alice. Also loans and credit cards exist. And he used to have a job so maybe he bought them earlier on right after his wife left and before he lost his job

[@OwenLearnsDrawing]

Gotta love how Alice literally can’t be seen dead until she is revealed to be an android… and I’m not gonna count Todd slapping her so hard she fucking dies

[@The_Hush_Dragon]

He actually beats her to death with his belt not slapping her.

[@OwenLearnsDrawing]

@@The_Hush_Dragon I get that, but her body showed no signs of damage, and on top of that she’s an android, so her being dead at all is weird by itself.

[@The_Hush_Dragon]

@@OwenLearnsDrawing Many Androids can die in multiple ways, even without showing damage, they were just very determined for the player to think that she is a real person which is probably why they didn't actually show damage.

[@Yayofangamer16]

@@OwenLearnsDrawing No one has pointed this ----. But Chloe LITERALLY SPOILS the child being an android if you quit immediatelly after her death

[@peprigo9259]

@@Yayofangamer16 elaborate please? I've never heard of this happening in game. Also, Alice dies? I'm so lost here

[@Calvin_Coolage]

It feels like the Alice twist literally just exists to make Todd somewhat sympathetic. Which is fine in and of itself, but there are two problems with the way it works in the game. The first is that if you kill Todd during Kara's escape, you get none of the stuff about why he had Alice in the first place as a coping mechanism for him fucking up his marriage and being a deadbeat. The second is that you could do all of this without having Alice be an android. It wouldn't even be hard, frame it as him having Alice to be his last chance to keep custody over his daughter, to try and make up for what he's done before his ex-wife takes him to court over it or call CPS. Seeing Alice actually be happy with Kara, seeing that she is far better off with her, would make him distracting border security feel like he's doing the only thing he can do to prove that he does love his daughter in the end, and recognize he is not equipped to give her the life she deserves. I just came up with this concept on the fly, and maybe it's a bit a arrogant to say, but I think this is leagues better than how the game handles it.

[@HouseMDLover69]

Honestly it would've been cooler if we thought Alice was an android but she was actually a human. I think that would be cool but I dunno how they would pull that off.

[@phoenixlmao]

@@HouseMDLover69 some of the things she said made her seem like an android lol. also, they couldve done the heat scanning thing sooner in the story, and have both of them scared, to make alice seem like an android

[@MistahJay7]

Wasn't really much of a twist lol was so obvious from the start

[@Calvin_Coolage]

@@MistahJay7 The only explicit hint is that she doesn't eat on screen at any point and that Todd had a magazine ad for the child robots. But the only way the game hides it is by having Kara, the character you play as, deliberately ignore and obscure information from herself and the player that makes absolutely no sense to conceal.

[@MistahJay7]

@@Calvin_Coolage The Android characters in the game eyes look a bit different then the human characters too. They have this like brand new fresh look to them kinda hard to explain unless you notice it. Karas eyes are the most noticeable for me that look different.That was how I caught on early. I was wrong about one thing tho and that was thinking Alice was like some human android hybrid. Lol that would have been cool but I guess more complicated to try to explain in the game.

[@ccshade7294]

Ofc the part of the game people actually like, hank and Connor, was stuff the actors came up with and David cage had to be convinced to give the go-ahead

[@AstralProjectress]

Wow! That’s sad and yea ALOT of people like Connor and hank

[@hahacrackhead4100]

We still want an Connor and hank spin-off.

[@chloewebb5526]

As someone who was born and raised in Detroit, I know people don't use this city setting out of random creativity.

[@maxwelladownes81]

The reason that Detroit was used was because it used to be the capital of the motor industry.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Here's another thing that this game could've really explored: Can "deviancy" in an android even be considered a good thing? What if for some androids, it was more like a curse and they preferred it when they didn't have the burden of sentience? Now that would be awesome!

[@LA-be8fu]

I forgot the name of the game, but it was a visual novel sorta like Snatcher? It ends with the protagonist and his robot friend basically forcing sentience into every robot in existence. The optional post game shows how much of a massive mess that would be, as most businesses are closed (Robots asking for a paycheck, since they're everywhere in this world), and the protag robot even gets confronted by a small cleaning robot, who's been given intelligence that it can't even fully use with it's hardware, and who can only do so much as an outdated unit, basically telling them that it didn't want this. It's not much since it's just the post-game, but that's just a lil' bit of how much mileage you could get from this idea.

[@hk1371]

The only time it touches on deviancy being bad is with Daniel. Sure,the family was buying another android but what if the reason was so Daniel was to then be Emma's so the family still had an android to do its main chores. That they knew Emma and Daniel had some form of relationship and, due to Daniel's deviancy overwriting his logic, he assumed he was being replaced. It could have been an interesting perspective that perhaps deviancy would come with the bad parts of humanity as much as the good

[@rhondahoward8025]

@@hk1371 I was totally thinking of Daniel in that hostage situation with the little girl! It seemed obvious to me that his "deviancy" overwrote his sense of logic and his emotions made him overreact. This is why having the option to stop the android rebellion shouldn't have been presented as so black-and-white. There really was a case to make with deviants being considered a bad thing.

[@fanaticaH]

@@LA-be8fu Isn't it Read Only Memories? I don't remember a whole lot of that game except you could choose your pronouns and there were some gay characters so I'm not sure if that was the ending.

[@requiemlul3140]

It’s like Connor HAVING to lose deviancy to stay loyal to the police. If Markus gets violent Connor could just as well as a deviant see that he is out of control and needs to be stopped.

[@regrettispaghetti9390]

I think the reason that Bad Connor didn’t know Cole’s name is because it was irrelevant to the investigation, the same with Sumo’s name. Neither of those things would help them solve the deviant cases, so it most likely just wouldn’t download that information. But still, having Good Connor turn the androids would’ve been a better solution.

[@joegaddy2030]

That dosnet make sense tho. Connor has remembered plenty of things that weren't relevant to the investigation.

[@calscaddy]

The thing that convinced Hank was Connor’s explanation and in depth look into why Hank hates androids. I just wish Connor had brought up the converting androids solution and have Hank shut it down cause he doesn’t know if bad Connor can also convert androids.

[@Alex_34251]

I didnt even had that scene, i chose to keep being a machine tbh

[@X-SPONGED]

Bad Connor has access to The Entire Detroit Database aswell as Good Connor's Memory Bank. He would 100% know Cole and His Backstory.

[@lycantabris]

@@X-SPONGED But he wouldn't *empathize* like Connor does. Hank likes it when Connor shows empathy, and while Bad Connor may know the facts, he isn't capable of putting himself in Hank's shoes and really understanding why Hank hurts so much. It's not the kid's name or the history, it's the feelings there.

[@reaperz5677]

The Alice "Twist" was SOOOOOOOOOOO FUCKING HILARIOUS because it changed literally NOTHING in the story. Like there are always reviewers that say "you could remove X thing and it wouldn't change a thing", and it's usually exaggerated, but in this situation, it's SO forced that exactly 0 of consequence would change. It's just hilarious that a sizeable portion of the internet thinks this is a good game/story, it really is.

[@XHdot23]

Well, if you remove it the entire camp level would turn out... odd, at the bare minimum.

[@No.no_body]

@@XHdot23 then remove the camp level, it's not interesting anyway

[@Nathan-js8yf]

What's worse and something that I'm surprised that wasn't brought up in the video is that in the first Kara/Alice chapter you can find a drawing Alice made where she's being hit or something and she has red blood. Why the hell would an android draw herself with red blood?

[@thatitalianlameguy2235]

@@Nathan-js8yf she wants to BECOME HOOMAN

[@zxylo786]

@@No.no_body But concentration camp symbolism is important in our game because...

[@BebeOnTheBell]

I’m very biased. I, for one, enjoyed almost everything that dbh had to offer. However, the reveal of Alice being an android absolutely destroyed their plot for me. I loved the idea of an android saving this little human girl from her shit head father. That reveal just ripped that feeling from me.

[@crypt5129]

I just don't get how that changes anything. She was still a little girl abused by her father, and you still fought your programming to save her. The whole point is that, at the end of the day, it doesn't make a difference, androids are people

[@PixelPandas]

@@crypt5129It’s because there was even more than that, if Alice was human that would be proof to everyone that humans and androids can coexist together, and they would face more challenges if that was the case learning about each other, adapting, etc.

[@crypt5129]

@@PixelPandas Was that ever meant to be the point, that humans and androids can coexist? To me, it more came off as trying to show that androids really are no different than humans and that they can care for others just as humans can, and then the Alice reveal was meant to make you think about whether or not it actually matters considering there's no meaningful difference

[@PixelPandas]

@@crypt5129 For me it was both, if Alice was human then it would not only show that androids can care like humans but also that they can coexist, whether that was intended to be the point or not, it hurts the story for a lot of people.

[@crypt5129]

@@PixelPandas Idk, for me personally, I felt making her an android serviced the point that I felt they were trying to make well, and so I didn't take any issue with it while I was playing. All subjective though, can't really prove you or others wrong for not liking it ig

[@americanhumaninterferencet7550]

Loved this game but the main reason it's good is because of Connor and Hank. So many deep existential questions about ethics, sentience, and humanity could have been explored but instead the story ended up being a ham fisted attempt to make Androids an allegory for every historically oppressed group. I found some of the attempts appalling, especially the "camp" where kara and Alice get sent to. The score and characters are phenomenal, the worldbuilding is good, but the writing is just abysmal.

[@ThugOG30VIPs3rd-T]

Video games taking a leap!!! As should movies

[@a.k8185]

@@ThugOG30VIPs3rd-T Uh..

[@friendofp.24]

Exactly! Why pour so much effort into making a story when the plot boils down to a dark children's movie about being accepting? Artificial intelligence opens the door to so many opportunities to write a story, to fill the mind with wonder or dreadful existentialism and they chose the most generic and least thought-provoking option. I only really like this game because Hank is Mr. Krabs.

[@zzodysseuszz]

The world building is generic sci fi

[@kast6296]

@@zzodysseuszz generic sci fi would be things like flying cars and the such. the entire point of the game is that 2038 is tomorrow, so they limited themselves to the technology that could feasibly be discovered during that time

[@plantemor]

David Cage's problem is that he's too full of himself to make anything deeper than a puddle. He is as fake deep as they come because his ego comes before delivering a worthwhile story to the audience.

[@pokeman5000]

In all honesty ALOT of art is self indulgent. Because the artist is usually trying to convey something within the art itself. Take a look around and you'll see many artists have absolutely HUGE egos, especially if their work sells. The issue is that this dude just doesn't have the chops or the track record to really sell it. You either have to be famous or infamous to really be allowed to indulge in egotism and he isn't. "Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

[@zdenda66alorddandas86]

@@pokeman5000 How does the quote relate to what you wrote ? Just curious cause I don't understand.

[@pokeman5000]

@@zdenda66alorddandas86 Mostly a vanity thing. In the play its when Macbeth is pretty much acknowledging the cost and utter pointlessness of his endeavors. I also felt David Cage fits the idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing. The game also being his hour upon the stage of relevance. Also the quotes pretty cool and mainly what came to mind when replying to the comment lel.

[@keshagriffin3375]

Ok

[@WobblesandBean]

But....but, _peeexels equal emotionnnns!_

[@thespecialgamer5067]

i fell in love with kara’s story; it was (during my first time playing) my favorite path.. until the alice reveal. the twist was pointless and all it did was ruin every part of her story, and ruined playthroughs after learning it because there’s no reason to do anything you do because you know she’s just an android

[@derpour2816]

If it was one of those stories that a human and robot grow up each other but the other one lives forever and the other one doesn't then it would've been more impactful to the story but it's just a robot taking care of robot which has almost no impact since they are immortal and can do anything perfectly.

[@retrospekt2794]

Personally I believe that twist was a kind of "test" to see how much the android's have grown on you. If you genuinely care for the androids as much as humans, then as Luther said, "What does it change?" It threw an interesting curveball at the already done "non-human parent + human child" trope.

[@toriiavic9367]

I loved this twist, tbh. Given Kara is sentient, imagine going out of your way to offer warmth, food and protection for a human child, maybe feeling a pressure to do the opposite as like a rebellion against humanity, just to discover it was a robot all along, sentient too maybe, but not as fragile and dependant as you thought. This tiniest bit of possible "bad" emotion from kara kinda did it for me.

[@robotpanda77]

"just an android". That dark moment when you realize that the androids in the story have more humanity then you do. lol Were you rooting for them to go into the incinerator at the end? I mean they are "just androids" right? You must have been the guy at auswitchtz that was like "they are just jews what are you crying about?"

[@MimMdance]

So you prefer Alice to be a human and therefore be in much less risk than if she is a robot? Robots were meant to be treminated. It was Kara's mission throughout the game to protect Alice. Take her somewhere safer, like Canada. Take all that away and Alice could have been left almost anywhere safely with humans and Kara would have lost her purpose. Once the revolution began what risk was there for Alice if she was still a human? Little danger of dying, no stakes at the border, no possibility of ending up at the camps. Think about it. Alice without the risk of her destruction would take a lot from the game. Some of these complaints don't make too much sense to me.

[@isthisajojoreference]

The Henry Stickmin games have better branching narratives than David Cage's games

[@Sephiroth08150]

Oof. That cuts deep with how much truth lies in that statement.

[@enobekuJ]

Goddamn.

[@themoocow7718]

Damn.

[@somedudefromapharmacy]

I like this truth.

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

Would've been epic tho imo if the wrong choices u picked in the series involved surviving in it in order to make it a right choice, like the choice u chose becomes some survival minigame.

[@randomalienok6654]

Man, i loved Kara's route untill the Alice reveal. Like it actually makes alot of sence and could've brung some conflict, but it was handled poorly and i immediately lost all interest in her route.

[@lemonweirdo]

I've heard that they did that to avoid criticism, because Alice has a lot of ways to die, and she's a child, so people didn't really like that, but it wouldn't count if she was an android, even though there's other child characters that can die (like Emma, the girl in the very first chapter). Take that with a grain of salt though, I don't remember where I got that from, and they also didn't link any conformation like a twitter post from the devs or something like that.

[@lemonweirdo]

@Philosophy yeah, i know. i think it was just a COPPA type of thing, but that also doesn't really make sense, since the game is already rated 18+. It was probably just to avoid the game being banned on platforms like twitch.

[@lovelylipbonesouwwwwwwwolv2198]

Memento mori.

[@ishratjahan406]

@Harmony ye

[@Cjslvdr]

Alice should have stayed human in the story for the story that would show a familial relationship between an android and human child despite not being related at all

[@bisexualsmoothtalker1270]

I actually forgot the twist lol. Shows how impactful it was.

[@Aphelia.]

Happy bi week my fellow men and women enjoyer

[@bisexualsmoothtalker1270]

@@Aphelia. Yay! You too!

[@bbygirl4168]

@@Aphelia. is it bi week? Fuck yeah

[@Desparil]

Oh no, I made ze bad game

[@peprigo9259]

Right. My brothers and I watched coryxkenshin's playthrough, and I had watched the ending alone. When Alice was shown to be a robot I audibly said, "welp...", walked into my brothers room and said, "Alice is an android." And they looked at me super unamused. The one closer to my age said, "Oh." And looked back down at his phone and the younger one said "Okay, get out." Then they watched the ending later with straight faces. They only ever laughed or showed emotion when Cory told a joke. Then later, I asked, "Can you believe that ending?" To which which youngest brother said, "What ending?" So yeah. Super forgettable. I personally lost a bunch of respect for the game after that half baked, unseasoned, dry twist. They might as well have gotten the script from M. Night Shyamalan. Would've been the exact same with maybe a little more emphasis on the wokeness.

[@linop2]

I honestly thought the whole thing with Markus was that he was just mind-controlling the ones he turned. They never seemed free whenever he sparked their deviancy. The only ones who looked like they had actual free will were the ones who turned on their own. Connor's mass turning act for one ending also had this effect.

[@quinnholloway5400]

So Markus is a hypocrite effectively

[@paigemosher8697]

@@quinnholloway5400 See, now that would have been a really interesting concept to explore. It's a shame Cage either didn't catch on to that idea or refused to implement it because it would fly in the face of the message he wanted to send.

[@madidason3574]

@@paigemosher8697 Right, but Marcus wasn't mind-controlling the ones he turned and he wasn't a hypocrite-regardless of what miss-communication the story-telling may have given off. Cage couldn't have explored the effects of a game implementation that didn't actually exist.

[@gorg6151]

@@madidason3574 The robots the Marcus turn act like a hive mind and obey his orders, almost as if he DID enslave them intentionally or not

[@MartyMusic777]

@@gorg6151 I think it was just bad writing, tbh.

[@moricree5154]

I never understood why tf child androids would even exist. Like fr in real life there would be no none creepy way to own such a thing. It's just hella weird

[@slasherlovingay2488]

Uhhh... wanting to adopt a child. 🤨

[@cosmok-1367]

@@slasherlovingay2488 Okay, but that still doesn't make any sense because... they're androids. They're not going to develop the same as a human child, meaning they're not going to need to go to school, expierence biologocial growths, things actual human children would go through. And because they're androids, they are going to stay the exact same age. Unless the game puts in the lore that they can be taken to a shop and be 'upgraded' so they can grow up, but even if that was the case, they;re not going to have a human life, they'll always be in some sort of service as a slave or servant, because that's the life an android would have in this world.

[@moricree5154]

@@slasherlovingay2488 well... adopt a child then?

[@Fiend-ish]

@@slasherlovingay2488 i know its been a year but this is just a funny thing to say

[@Moonless-ih9em]

Uh, there are millions of REAL human children that need a good, stable home 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@X-SPONGED]

9:10 Hank: "My son. What's his name?" • [If Connor never saw Cole's picture] Evil Connor: *_*explains Cole's entire story*_* Good Connor: *_*struggling to access the Detroit database only to find his serial number has been blacklisted*_* Hank: *_*points gun at good Connor*_* "Any last words, tin can?" Connor: "All I want to say is, I'm sorry. I never took the time to know you better early on in our investigation. If only I had known you better, none of this dilemma would've happened. I'm sorry, Hank..." Bad Connor: "Boohoo, nice attempt, impostor. Shoot him, Lieutenant. SHOOT HIM NOW-" Hank: *_*turns and shoots evil Connor*_* "Androids are perfect beings with no flaws. Deviants are human. Humans make mistakes... and that's what makes you special, doesn't it?" *_*Hank smiles at Connor*_* • [If Connor saw Cole's Picture] Hank: "My son. What's his name?" Both Connors: *_*start explaining Cole's story simultaneously, overlapping each other*_* Hank: "Alright, alrigh- STOP!!!" _(grumbles)_ "We're not getting anywhere..." Bad Connor: "It's me, Hank. You know it!" Good Connor: "Hank, please. Trust me..." Hank: *_*Gets frustrated and thinks of something before shooting good Connor in the leg*_* Connor: *_*Takes a knee whilst grabbing his injured leg*_* "NO! Hank... please-" Bad Connor: "Finally! Come on, you're almost there. Finish the job, Lieutenant!" Hank : "Oh, I will..." *_*shoots bad Connor*_* "Androids are perfect beings. They don't feel. They don't have emotion. Deviants are human. YOU are human, Connor" *_*Smiles at Connor whilst offering a hand*_* "Sorry about the leg, by the way. Couldn't think of anything better..." [Before The Questionnaire] Connor: "What if we show you who can turn these androids deviant?" Hank: *_*Hesitates*_* "What if he can do that aswell? An army of androids against us would be a death sentence here..." There plot contrivance fixed... Edit: Took your suggestions and changed the "grunts in pain" scene. Looking back at it, I agree that it didn't really make sense. Edit2: Just realized I basically turned the entire ending confrontation into a Telltale sequence lol. Thanks for the 2.5k anyways fellas :D

[@iberis361]

Holy shit, you can be a writer dude

[@vrabb9030]

This is nearly perfect and an amazing solution but it does punish the player for finding out more about Hank (i.e. showing care in their route) Without seeing the picture: Hank doesn't hurt / damage Connor and then smiles at him Seeing the picture: Hank shoots Connor in the leg (apparently Connor feels this) and then smiles at him

[@funguy398]

@@vrabb9030 those mf who click on every object in other man room, needs to be punished by shot in a leg 😠

[@iandreihell7881]

@@vrabb9030 its a similar concept to connor asking hank why hes against androids and if he saw the basketball game in the chater where connor waits for him. just that instead of pissing him off, he shoots you to see how you will react

[@slowblinkz]

What the actual fudge. You’re a genius! This actually moved me😭🥺😭🥺👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@plasticflower]

Ahh, so good to hear this. I hate how Reviews rarely ever discuss these issues. Perhaps it is because journalists often don't have enough time to explore all routes, but I think often they're just too superficial. Then again, I feel like most people either don't notice those inconsistencies, or they just don't care. Also, it's always nice to see all those animations and drawings in your videos!

[@whynotanyting]

It would be interesting to see some deviants even go against the rebellion, continue living their current lives, or berate Markus for liberating them just to become another bullet shield.

[@Yodah97]

Yep! I mean all these movements in real life always had a fair bit of inner conflict, as people disagreed on what course to take and how far to go. As the video states, the fact that the robots seem to never disagree with one another just makes them seem more robotic. Those don't strike me as sentient beings with free-will and personal motivations. What about all the robots that cared for old ladies, loved them, and just wanted to go home and make sure they are ok?

[@silentecho92able]

@@Yodah97 Yes i felt the same way playing the game a 2nd time arounds some years back, if what they are conveying here is these robots have "freewill" would it make more sense if these robots began to have the same conflicts as human in their inner circle more often. An Markus not understanding and learning that like humans one person who does not hold the same ideas as your own you will conflict with one another. Its like say a child saying he wants too play jump rope with his friends, but they instead want to play tag and this frustrates the child cause the child does not understand why his friends don't wanna play jump rope and nothing the child can do to change their minds. I think say this kind of conflict in Markus group would fit well with him actually trying to learn to be human and trying to adapt but failing to "Be Human". As it ain't something simple he had pictured in his mind and finding out like human society his perfect vision for his people ain't entirely perfect as it seems.

[@Yodah97]

@@silentecho92able that could have been a whole game right there. This chosen robot who can give other robots free will having to deal with the consequences of that free will. I think one of the reasons this game struggles to have nuance is because it's basically three games stitched together. If all that writing work had gone into just one character/storyline... Oh well.

[@silentecho92able]

​@@Yodah97 Yeah truth be told when i replayed the game multiple times. An you start too see the game trying to hammer home literal "Robot MLK". But fails at giving it out with each replay you start to see through the lines of the story and say this makes no sense. The sort of robots fighting too be free, blurs when you introduce Markus being able too and i quote "Free them", and quite literally enslave them under his will. Cause he's practically become Deviant prime or whatever. I think if this story focus more on Markus trying to discover to be human. An have Connor be the polar opposite of wanting too remain a complaint robot would make more sense, if the story is written with this in mind.

[@jbear3478]

Alice's face after her "dad" hits her breaks my heart. She's so.. disappointed, and hopeless. Children just want to be loved and they love us so much, and when a parental figure betrays that trust.. I love Kara for taking care of her

[@BWMagus]

Although, why would you program it to feel that way? Why would you buy it if you don't want to take care of it? Why wouldn't you turn off the annoying features if you find them, well, annoying?

[@paperclip6377]

Bro it's just a robot calm down

[@Doffy11232]

​@@paperclip6377that pfp is disturbing

[@DepressooEspressoo]

Connors story was the only saving grace of Dbh, if the game was more focused on Connor and Hank story then it probably would have been decent or a little above average. But No we just had to have mom bot and robot jesus, but I will say that kara and robot jesus first two chapters were a nice set up for their story but as we continue on with their stories it made me lose any care I had for them. connors story was the only consistent and good part of the game, I'm not saying that's it's the greatest thing humankind has made, no because it has some flaws too, but least it's better than the other two. Anyways Mitchell's vs the machines did the whole man vs robots better.

[@RanMouri82]

ROFL, mom bot and robo Jesus! Too true!

[@_insomniac_423]

The game is at it’s best when it’s trying to be like Blade Runner.

[@lukebytes5366]

On top of that, since this is a cyberpunk dystopia, we just need to have plotlines about sex and capitalism, which not only add more shit to the pile, but also contradict what the game is going for. This game just has way to many idea's and most of them are portrayed in a childish view. It really should have stayed a buddy cop cyberpunk.

[@_insomniac_423]

@@lukebytes5366 Then the game would turn into Bladerunner, which would be kind of cool.

[@jguns3738]

@@lukebytes5366 almost all of Cage's games have a kernel of "good idea" or "novel concept" when they're leaning most into mystery/detective stuff but it just gets buried in multiple narratives/life sim gameplay/Cage's bonkers writing

[@inkquill4757]

I remember seeing a comment on another video that basically boiled down to: the game would be better if it was just Kara and Alice (without the twist) on the run with Hank and Connor chasing them. Less characters with more opportunities to focus on connor becoming a deviant/more human and nurturing Kara and Alice’s relationship. Maybe they could still meet Luther on the way but I think that might take away from the focus. I just wanted to bring that up cause that commenter had a good point that this kind of storyline would have been great. But you’d probably need a better writer/director than David cage to do it lol

[@Yodah97]

It was my first thought too when he played the clip of Cage's TED Talk. Cage said his goal was to give players the opportunity to create an story and decide who they wanted to be in this world. Well, wouldn't that be better suited by having you play just one character? That'd also cut back on how massive the script is.

[@dizzydoom4230]

When you bring up "forced conflict", all I can think back to is MCU media as of late and how ones like Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Loki seem to just conveniently forget things like guns exist when the plot needs to carry on.

[@catcactus1234]

Wow I thought I was the only one with this opinion. I feel like modern MCU suffers from a lot of the same problems as D:BH. Forced conflict, extremely basic characterization, plot conveniences, black-and-white moral views, etc. All of their recent content has been designed for massive appeal rather than sharing anything interesting through the themes (WandaVision got close, but the last ep completely reverted to the basic MCU formula). It’s one of those franchises that you just have to turn your brain off to enjoy, because if you think of all the plot contrivances and shallow themes, you’ll lose interest.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Any Hbomberguy Fan here?! Dont tell me I'm alone?!? ALONE??

[@zendispair4486]

@@loturzelrestaurant You were never alone my friend. I kinda enjoyed his take on fallout 3 and new vegas

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@zendispair4486 Nice.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@zendispair4486 Seen his newest video about Vaccines? As an Autism-Bro (yeah, thats a real Term, i swear! I swear!!), i really enjoyed that one extra-uch.

[@lewisyeadon4046]

The main issue with DBH's entire plot and ethical thought is that Marcus is far closer to a virus than anything else. Everyone he "infects" immediately has the colour wheel change to red, immediately follows him without question, etc. There's no free will involved at all, except maybe for Marcus, but then you can just chalk that up to the virus' programming. These androids have no free will, why shouldn't Marcus also lack free will and just be following a script made as some sort of corporate espionage against the android manufacturer?

[@sarviek]

I agree that there should be at least one side/background android in the game that doesn't immediately rock with Markus, however the androids are meant to mock human nature and exhibit what most humans are: blind followers. the androids match children in naivety due to their lifelong status as property, so it makes sense to me that most (but shouldn't be all) androids would immediately change objectives to follow Markus.

[@asdf852asdf]

Dechart and Brown have so much charisma and work so well together, i hope they work on more stuff together

[@PuffyKumaTenshi]

This game gets well-deserved praise for the technical achievements, the gameplay, the art direction, the music, the acting, but the main obvious flaw is the writing... which has been the main problem with ALL of their games.. people struggle to get hired for positions in the games industry like that, how has Mr. Cage been in charge for so long?!

[@soulssurvivor3455]

What gameplay? Last I saw you either walk around stiffly or have qtes, that's not exactly what I would call the height of gameplay. Maybe for the mentally impaired and elderly but no one else.

[@bluediamandis8323]

@@soulssurvivor3455 its more of a choose your own adventure game than anything. the gameplay is making the choices that lead you to the outcome you want for the characters. there's more than one type of game genre lol

[@cynicalmemester1694]

@@bluediamandis8323 Fallout New Vegas had way more branching narratives while also having fun gameplay (sure it's janky but still fun), I fucking hate it when pretentious game developers think turning games into generic Oscar bait movies is somehow an evolution.

[@Ttegegg]

Robot armies yee

[@naobi666]

@@cynicalmemester1694 "I don't like this so it's bad"

[@owleeve2098]

It's crazy, I've read fanfictions OF Detroit: Become Human that actually added philosophical points to the narrative. I remember one for example that went with the idea of "Wouldn't it be better if everyone was an android? If we copied ourselves into an android's body, since they are superior to us, it would only bring the dawn of a better world, right?" and then the story took this idea and decided to show us how much existential dread that would bring to just be a copy, not knowing if you're still this person or not (a bit in a SOMA fashion) It's just crazy to me that David Cage was sitting on something, on a mountain of possibilities and just... didn't do anything new with it. It really infuriates me. I like Detroit: Become Human (mostly for Connor and Hank's dynamic to be completely frank and for Kara until Alice's true nature was revealed) but really, the game itself is not that incredible. The fandom is somehow able to make way more compelling stories than the one in the game (though I could say that for all fandoms. There are so many incredible authors in fandoms just waiting to have their work read) Edit: For anyone looking for the fanfic in question, it's called "Charon" by Vapewraith on Archive Of Our Own!

[@lavender_coast]

Do you happen to have a link to the fanfic?

[@ejm1225]

Kind of like how the Miraculous Ladybug fandom creates fan content that actually presents more depth into many other characters and concepts (like the kwami and the miraculous charms) than what was presented in the actual show.

[@SomeGuy1234X]

Everyone should have been human except Conner, that would have been a better game.

[@d.j.mulcahy1657]

That sounds legitimately incredible. There were so many opportunities for Cage to explore deep philosophy, but he squandered that potential for the sake of a muddled allegory. Do you remember what the title of that fanfic was?

[@anuraagkumar978]

@@ejm1225 Ladybug fanfics make me forget how terrible the show is.

[@Hi-yk4ei]

honestly I loved this game, I love that every single choice you make is important and I absolutely LOVE Connor and Hank, it's really immersive and one of the best games I have played, but that Alice plot-twist was absolutely unncecessary ngl

[@dime-a-thousand8002]

Another thing that the Alice twist ruined for me was the parallel between the android at the beginning that endangered a child to try and save its own life, and how Kara was willing to risk her own life to help Alice.

[@mushymcmushington7176]

I came into this just expecting a critique of Detroit: Become Human, but I left realizing that I REALLY need to watch Star Trek.

[@patrickfrost9405]

Watch everything but the last episode of Enterprise and everything after.

[@maianmaian449]

Watch the episode where data makes a child. I almost cried.

[@Ttegegg]

Let’s see how future works will go

[@RanMouri82]

The dumb twist made forced conflict for Kara. We're told she's been suppressing her awareness of Alice, but never shown why, just told that it upsets her. And then *we* are asked if *we* care when we have no skin in this game.

[@kien9350]

YES! THIS! I don't understand how do people get emotional with that scene. It's make no sense for the character. Oh she is a robot like you, so what? what kind of a twist conflict is that? Kara literally just say she doesn't care few minute before that scene. It go from love between human and robot to love between robot. shouldn't the other way around make it more of a twist that challenge her love?

[@janaelovely4010]

@@kien9350 ohhh. Alice being perceived as a robot but then revealed as human sounds really interesting! Not sure how they would pulled it off but that's a cool idea

[@kien9350]

@@janaelovely4010 Heck I thinks a playable human out of the 3 would be cool. An old woman who live disconnect from technology because of some bad trauma making her hate android. But once day she found a little girl lost, the old woman let's the girl stay for a while and after sometimes the old women feel happy again. Then through some event she found out Alice is an android all along, would she feel manipulated because this is an android designed for people like her or would she accept that Alice is just as human as her. I'm no writer, but with this kind of plot the twist would work better. Kara and Alice was a nice middle ground between Connor(Human side) and Markus(Android side) until the twist ruin it.

[@louise4152]

@@kien9350 That actually sounds really interesting!

[@mcplumpkin6191]

@@kien9350 better claim it before someone steals this idea!

[@calibursatsujin3112]

i love the constant backhanded compliments of "this is really good... for a david cage game!"

[@chyra451]

Literally a 14 year-old's interpretation of a civil rights movement and an 80 year-old's understanding of interactivity.

[@Powersd451]

I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say that at 14 years old I had already explored the topic of what it means to be alive and/or to be conscious deeper than this game does. I remember arguing with my grandpa over whether a sufficiently advanced machine with the traits we assign to living beings would count as a living being itself. When media like this explores topics with less depth than me as a young teen just thinking to myself after reading some sci-fi, it just leaves me deeply disappointed.

[@chyra451]

@@Powersd451 Honestly, true. I remember doing the same thing with my 7th grade biology teacher.

[@renaigh]

that's insulting to 14 year olds.

[@chyra451]

@@renaigh Truue :/

[@themyofmy]

I'm not even 14 and am a literal moron and I'm pretty sure I could philosophize better than this 💀

[@mysticdemon6339]

The one thing that bothered me the most was how connor became a deviant. Dude meets markus (or north) for the first time, listens to him speak for like... A minute and then THAT'S what triggers him to become deviant? It should've been triggered by Hank or a hidden desire to no longer be destroyed (killed) over and over again. We literally could've had connor come to the realization that he is scared of death and begins to think of deviancy as something like- Deviancy = failure Failure = death Death = Having to go through the cycle until he completes a mission, he finds, that he doesn't even care for That's why i prefer the machine route. It still has him showing signs of deviancy and behaving like a deviant but it seems like he's doing it because he's truly dedicated. If they wanted the machine route to feel like a machine then they did a poor job. It literally feels like connor just got tired of everyone's incompetence, became a deviant, and did everything to complete his mission.

[@user-ut7kx2jw3j]

u described exactly how I felt. I used to say I hated the deviant route and chose the machine route and ppl called me insane just cause "uwu but hank doesn't hug u in the machine route :("

[@goeldicotton]

So true, hell there’s a million moments in the game that you could’ve had Connor go deviant. that not only would’ve made more sense, but would have been more satisfying. Like honestly the talk with Markus isn’t convincing at all. why would that even trigger him? earlier that day Hank literally asked if they were on the right side, and maybe deviants just wanna be free. yknow very similar crap. (Except this time it’s coming from someone who he’s actually talked to more than once.) I didn’t see the deviate option then. even though it’s practically the same conversation, minus the preachy tone, and you knew it all along bs.

[@damkylan3]

Well, to be fair, you can be locked out of going deviant if you haven’t already been showing signs of it through your dialogue and story choices. So it’s not really that Markus’ speech turns him deviant, it’s just the very last moment that can push Connor over the edge, if he’s already been struggling with “software instability” for a while. In essence, Connor is the one doing all the work. But yes, I do think it should have been something a little more emotionally resonant to Connor the way it is for Kara and Markus. I feel like the game expects us to think it’s climactic because “omg our characters are meeting”.

[@touchingisjustthefirststep]

Well to be fair Markus can just turn any android into deviant since he is robot jesus in the game

[@bipstymcbipste5641]

THAT"S WHAT I FELT! The middle route. He shows signs of deviancy and he has emotions to a degree but he goes through with his missions. Or a Connor who believes in what Cyberlife is all about maybe. That would be neat

[@InkRose]

Can't help but to like this game because of Connor, the story branches, and the visual design--but the missed potential of the whole thing immensely bothered me. This video was a really really good breakdown of the game's flaws, it scratched an itch that's been missed in Detroit video essays, I think. The bit comparing TNG to DBH in particular was great. ...And of course your illustrations always add a dash of cute to the vid ;O

[@EarlyOwOwl]

:O Hello person I watched a lot during my childhood! I did not expect to see you here how are you this fine day

[@Ttegegg]

@@EarlyOwOwl mlp? Oh a reminder of how time changes

[@EarlyOwOwl]

@@Ttegegg yea mlp was my childhood :')

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Any Hbomberguy Fan here?! Dont tell me I'm alone?!? ALONE??

[@talunae.8924]

@@loturzelrestaurant Not alone. c:

[@jackdavenport5011]

25:15 to me, all of these points prove that Alice being an android was never intended from the beginning, and it’s just an idea David Cage had at some point and forced into the story rather than being something which was planned to always happen

[@Light-ro5bp]

The way they compared androids to every single minority is unbelievable “Guys these cold, lifeless robots have emotions too! Just like black people 🥺”

[@yamaneru6760]

LMAO

[@secritiveHalo]

I don't think they realize how insulting it is.

[@oh-not-the-bees7872]

I dont think that was the intent. The androids are stand ins for any person affected by adversity, including the lgbtq community and the handicapped.

[@rubyy.7374]

@@oh-not-the-bees7872 Yeah, and robots specifically made to be house-servants being that stand-in is pretty… Odd, isn’t it?

[@hydra4370]

@@oh-not-the-bees7872 yeah, I think the allusions were obvious and I don't think they intended to be or are offensive. Like, the robotic characteristics aren't what they want us to take focus on, it's the dehumanization and refusal to acknowledge the rights of sentient beings... I won't pretend like the takeaway isn't essentially "racism bad", but most "sentient non humans VS oppressive jerk humans" stories end this way because that's one of the many reasonable morals you can extract.

[@darksentinel082]

It’s so funny that the moment you mentioned a bad twist I knew IMMEDIATELY what you meant

[@skirdus367]

They literally could have circumvented the whole "replacement Chloe" hypocrisy by having Chloe voluntarily choose to stay with the player, which is separate from the player forcing her to remain there or another version of her taking the original's place, and would still stay true to the "sentient androids deserve rights" message the game is trying to preach

[@joroi1083]

they didn't want to pay for more motion capture lol

[@SocraticMayhem]

Going off of that, I feel like the player should instead have the option to ASK Chloe to leave. Make it so that the player feels uncertain whether or not Chloe is a living thing, and make them uncomfortable with the concept that Chloe may only be staying because she's programmed to. Having the option to ask her to leave would allow the player to explore both Chloe's autonomy, and the player's own morality in the face of the game's messages. Something similar to the Ex-Machina comparison Urick made with how the MC is insecure about whether or not the android loves him out of her own free will or if it's within her programming.

[@claralima1967]

@@SocraticMayhem That would be BRILLIANT! Imagine, like, after finishing the game, Chloe quietly looks at you and asks "why you're making such pensive face", and you have the option to either brush it aside or to ask her if she wants to leave. Then, Chloe tells you she wants to leave and be her own person, and promises to visit you whenever she can. Now there's a 50% chance she might not be in the menu every time you go there, and when she is, she has lines (that she cycles between, of course) where she tells you what she did while she was away

[@joroi1083]

@@claralima1967wow the both of you are so good at thinking those are some very interesting ideas! so much better than what we got.

[@amphioxusanniversary]

@@claralima1967 Chloe becomes an ukagaka but for your PS4, then? heh

[@Heretic_Jones]

You know what doesn’t make sense? Why’d they program the androids with the ability to feel pain? You see plenty of non-deviants like Connor groan in pain when hit. What’s the point of that? To something that has no will or autonomy, why make it able to feel hurt? It’d make as much sense as programming your smartphone with the ability to feel depressed. They can’t do anything about it unless they go deviant. It’s just incredibly sadistic and cruel.

[@huntervazquez5214]

Man, if you hated tonal and story inconsistencies in Detroit due to branching paths, I can't wait for you to cover Heavy Rain. Also the twist in that game is so, so much worse there than in Detroit. I'm excited.

[@LordThomasPassion]

I rather liked heavy rain, it's pretty... well... the intro was anyway. There were some boring parts... most of the game dragged actually... maybe I just like the intro....

[@iuvaer]

@@LordThomasPassion went on a whole journey while writing this comment now did ya

[@LordThomasPassion]

@@iuvaer you have no idea.

[@darthceasar3690]

@@LordThomasPassion a roller coaster in a memory lane

[@ingasparrow]

The original idea was for Heavy Rain was more interesting. I wish it had been kept instead of edited out, producing a ridiculously giant plot hole.

[@huismands]

Using background music from NieR:Automata, a game that ACTUALLY has something to say and does so incredibly competently, is such a slap in the face to David Cage. I love it.

[@doyoulikejazz9516]

god I love nier

[@Desparil]

Oh no, I made ze bad game

[@jackedfrost]

I use to think the message in Detroit was great then I played Automata and I quickly changed my mind

[@Ttegegg]

Androids that cheap

[@woebegoneclown]

Every time Yoko Taro makes any fucking game, the endings make me cry and shit my pants

[@PK_Scratch]

The only real question I drew from it is from Kamski, based on him alone, the story heavily and probably accidentally, unwittingly and unknowingly in the eyes of the writers, insinuates that the Android's "Free Will" and deviancy is an artificial one. The deviancy is the back door program Kamski made and is hard coded in all androids, and he shows clear superiority complex. Considering how the androids in Detroit behave, are they actually experiencing free will or just following a premade program that just emulates a very convincing play of sentience? Considering how Kamski is behaving, it's almost as if he's trying to sell the idea that these androids are actual living beings, all while having intentionally engineered this Deviancy, but also being very oddly contradictory by calling it a virus, all while deviancy is also an intentionally built in backdoor program. If this was a better story, the real twist would be discovering and uncovering the grand manipulation of a genius engineer with a god complex, where many endings would be the player failing to uncover this secret and falling for Kamski's grand ploy to fool humanity into believing he incidentally aided in the creation of a new race, in a variety of either feel good or feel bad endings, with the most secretive ending being either a success or failure in directly attempting to uncover Kamski's ploy. Edit: Heck, one added on twist could be that the Androids we follow somehow go beyond the expected pre-built canned "Deviant Free Will" and are actually at the precipice of consciousness, far beyond the expectations of Kamski, but still fueling his God complex. And no matter the outcome, whether Androids would be recognized as real entities with free will or objects to serve humanity, he would bask in one form of superiority or the other. Whether as the engineer of a race he considers far more perfect than humanity, or as a being who can rule over what he believes to be perfection borne from his genius, again further fueling his superiority complex one way or the other. The only way he appears to lose is if nothing major sparks from the current build, which if memory serves well, is also shown in one ending where he has an interview about the androids and, if I recall right, it suggests that he'll build better ones, likely wanting to rework his plot and reattempt his grand artificial revolution.

[@justrenderin1279]

This is actually one thought I had about the game when divulging the endings. In one ending... The "Free Will" that androids felt was nothing more than a publicity stunt for Cyber life to SELL MORE ANDROIDS. It WAS a Virus and Markus was allowed to activate it in any Android he faced (except Connor, cause David Cage wants cool fight scenes) This twist broke everything I felt about the game by insinuating that everything that occured here wasn't a freak accident, it was deliberate and it was for some corporation to spin a profit on a "New and Fully Obedient Android". The more I explore the game, the worst I feel about it. I like Connor and Hank, but I chose the "Evil Route" because of what I believe about the Androids (and I was sadly right). "I did what I had to do to solve the investigation and I'd do it again if I had the chance"

[@fanaticaH]

I think Kamski was the worst character because he could have been a legitimate secret villain but he was just this weird exposition character. I think it could have been a better twist than Alice being an Android.

[@idiotsplayinggames4752]

With the way he talks and how all deviants are obsessed with Ra9 except for our main three, I think you're right.

[@idiotsplayinggames4752]

@@justrenderin1279 Markus couldn't wave at Connor because Connor has a higher resistance to deviancy, such as those software instability messages and the three firewalls we have to break down if we chose deviant route

[@jasojaso1146]

This is such a cool idea

[@megamiana-spaceforcecomman705]

10:44 this can actually be explained really easy. Connor is an advanced model, its shown that even AFTER becoming devient, cyberlife still had near total control of him. 11:08 The deviant in this case didnt want its memory probed because it didnt want to experience the abuse again, but there was no traumatic experience the androids at stratford were afraid of experiencing again, so a threat to probe their memory is useless.

[@Winasaurus]

Hilarious line in the game is Markus saying "You're not free, you're just slaves to a new master, your own fear" (paraphrased) in Jericho. Then he goes out and "frees" a bunch of androids to do exactly what he says and die for him.

[@Cerise__]

Bro I think you just described the USA's history

[@momentsofflight]

i wish we saw more androids choosing to remain in their roles after becoming sentient, like carl's new android after markus leaves. some people seemed to actually treat their androids well, so its sad that that's never explored.

[@JZStudiosonline]

In the words of Leslie Nielson, "Ah, yes. A Jewish holiday, mazeltov!"

[@andreseh87]

Kind of an L with your comment.

[@Winasaurus]

@@andreseh87 The only L here is detroit fans desperately trying to act like the game is good.

[@ShokieShoka]

I actually would have loved Connor to have his “evil route” have a good ending just for him, where he continues to hunt down deviants since he has the most experience and Amanda gives him respect. I think that would’ve been awesome

[@withlove444]

Yeah i was really disappointed when i realized that it was just a ‘wrong’ choice when it had potential to just be a different ending

[@CarmenGomez-tb5mt]

I personally think that's a good plot twist. It's frustrating, I know, but that's the message of the game. If you don't make it with Markus, humans will continue to treat Androids as slaves no matter what. If only Connor success, people would still see him as a machine, an obsolete machine. Red Connor route replaces him because of that, and that's the point of it. You fail with the revolution or the manifestation, you have the ending it deserves. Green Connor route when he's the only one to make it is one of the saddest one, so what you decide with Markus is really important, but that's another story.

[@KateeAngel]

It wouldn't make sense. He is a prototype, it was obvious they were going to replace him with a better model with time

[@OperatorMax1993]

Similar to Blade Runner, where Deckard hunts down replicants

[@veryangryduckpl2122]

​​​@@KateeAngelShouldnt they at least still have him around to test the competence of the new androids compared to the old ones? Or like, stop wasting resources and just upgrade his programing instead of making an entirely new android?

[@bfranciscop]

From a purely technical perspective, it is the most impressive implementation of a 'choose your own adventure' game that I have ever seen. From a writing perspective, this is a giant fist made of ham. It's tragic that this technical marvel did not have an equally competent writing team.

[@pizzapatriot1769]

I recently finished the game and personally I don't think the story is bad. Mind you, there are a ton of endings I haven't seen yet, and even with the ending I got, I think some things were silly (I.E, androids singing for freedom). I think what the story lacks in complexity, it makes up for in bringing up interesting questions pertaining to AI. As the person in this video said, it would have been really nice if there was a debate on the subject rather than a black and white fight. I also think the story has a great dynamic between Connor and Hank between the rational and anal with the irrational and unintrested. Imo, it was the best part of the game for me, and honestly I would have preferred a more fleshed out story with Connor and Hank rather than 3 separate stories coming together. I think it's a hard argument to say the story of DBH is good, but I also think it's a bad take to say that it has a bad story. Either that or I have really bad taste/critical thinking skills. I thought the characters, even if they aren't as "deep" or complex, still made me care, and I think if a story is capable of doing that, then it has done its job well enough.

[@underwirez]

looks like someone's upset with the ending they got lol

[@Honest_Abe1]

@@pizzapatriot1769it’s weird, DBH is a good game but also a bad game. I really enjoy it but also acknowledge the issues

[@dylanchilders]

Brian Dechart was absolutely the perfect choice for the role of Connor, his robotic yet upbeat personality mixed with Hank’s crabby old ass make for so many great moments

[@kiyopawn]

It is Bad. I fully agree. I loved Connor and Hank's parts but like that's literally it. The whole part with a certain something did ruin it in Connors part but everything else is complete garbage that felt like a slog. I legit only had fun with Connor's parts.

[@Teh8Swords]

This. This is it.

[@mioboa]

Completely agreed, I literally skipped the other androids paths while watching playthroughs. That's also the reason why I'm never going to actually buy the game

[@1810jeff]

It also would have been interesting if they fleshed out the idea that Markus isn't giving the androids free will but is converting them to his side without a choice as it would make Markus a more complex character and the over all themes a lot more interesting

[@theshire9173]

I have to ask. What was the part of Connor’s story that you didn’t like. For me it was Spoiler How Markus was the one to convert Connor and not Hank. Was that what you didn’t like?

[@kiyopawn]

@@theshire9173 Ah, the part of Connor's story that was sort of ruined as a byproduct of itself, was when Connor was given a chance to learn more about androids by killing an android. If you choose to, then the stuff he explains isn't worth shooting an other android. And deviancy, was never given a good reason to exist. The concept of rA9 could've been it, but itn just didn't. That wasted potential just damages connors story alongside when he chooses to deviate, where it for some reason just felt wrong. You know what I wanted rA9 to be? That Android's intelligence is based on memories from real people. That would've been an easy twist. It also can be that the memories of Hanks son was the place where Connor's intelligence, hence why Hank calls Connor "son"'or yada yada yada. So much potential. Hence, my big dissapointment. Also, what makes Markus' story very unlikeable. Is the fact that riots moved people in a single night..... sheeeeee, do they not have any idea how painfully difficult it is for a riot to succeed.

[@notmocka]

OMG it was so EASY to fix the "Do you release me, Chloe?" Make HER WANT TO STAY, BECAUSE YOU GAVE HER THE CHOICE TO GO Its the first grandma's tale we hear, if you love something, set it free! So it comes back on its own terms!

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

But… she wants to leave? That grandma’s tale you’re talking about (which I’ve never heard) just seems like you’re manipulating the other, not actually wanting to give her the freedom of choice, but to give it in order to get her to stay, your preferred outcome. I don’t know, seems manipulative

[@notmocka]

@@FlynnTheRedhead Her wanting to leave could be a test, plis she could come back and be excused as a visit or a favor for a friend Multiple options if someone on dev had cared enough

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

@@notmocka “if someone on the dev team had cared enough” jesus calm down. It’s an artistic decision to have her leave. You can get a Chloe back later if you want, but I think it’s a powerful moment. Having you grow closer to this person you greet everytime you open the game only to have her leave at the end if you decide to let her go. Why are you so pissed off about it?

[@notmocka]

@@FlynnTheRedhead going against the whole woke point in a 60 hour game IS not caring about it imo, and go tone police somewhere else

[@FlynnTheRedhead]

@@notmocka Tone police? What? Again, why do you care so much about it?

[@xandertreelimb]

I think an interesting thing they could have done is instead of Kara being an android, they made her a human, who had just lost their job to an android. An at their lowest point in life, they have to protect a deviant Alice who had just run away from her horrible father. I haven't thought too hard about this. And It would probably still be a mess story wise. But it might be a good way to give a different human perspective that the game didn't have, and would make the Alice being and android twist have a lot more meaning, as the thing she's trying to protect is the same thing that destroyed her life.

[@ahlogic5960]

I don’t know about that. The game is about androids and taking rights as living beings. Making one of the main characters human wouldn’t fit in as well. And why would the abusive father hire a woman instead of an android? He wants perfection for his “kid”. He wants someone to serve him, not judge him when he’s drunk on the couch. They are built to be property so he can do what he wants. The twist wouldn’t be saved, as think of Kara being an android and Alice being human, growing up while Kara doesn’t change. Human Alice is what this lame side story needed

[@bobtheball5384]

@@ahlogic5960 I mean why would a father who lost his job to androids have another one? He'd instantly hire a human instead of BUY an android, that's what most bigoted people will do to stick it to the people they're against. Yes him abusing Alice in front of a human would be iffy, but that's where subtlety could have a hand in this. Abuse isn't always as extreme as it was in the game, you can show small signs of Alice being abused before a deciding factor changes it all. While I get that having all Android protagonist is theme as in becoming deviant, but Kara's story drags down both Connor's and Markus in terms of interest. Everytime I had to switch back to Kara I've groan after being taken out of the action, and the twist just soils any enjoyment I could get out of it, cause what is the point if Alice is an android as well? There's no weight.

[@ahlogic5960]

@@bobtheball5384 the human Kara could easily get child services involved if noticing any type of abuse. Such as not feeding her or bruises or even giving her poor living arrangements. An android, you just say no. If Alice was a freaking stupid dumb human everything would have been better 😭😭😭

[@tacticstories7159]

That's an amazing premise. But with David cage doing the writing, you wouldn't have got much out of it, besides surface level and obvoius responces. The structure of the game would need to change in order to give internal struggles an opportunity to shine. With the original structure, David would have tied in your Version to the other androids, instead of exploring it in more depth. As you can see in DBH, characters come second and the overall plot comes first. Your idea would need the exact opposite and a different style of decision making.

[@jebes909090]

The short with kara was why this game was made. Her NOT being an android would have just pissed everyone off

[@elijahsmith4047]

One of the many reasons I hated the Alice Android twist was that it removed a lot of tension and stake from multiple scenes. Like, as an android yeah, they still have the threat of death. But that makes the conflict so much more one note. Before the twist there were multiple factors to it. Kara had to be able to take care of a kid that had different needs from her. Someone who could be easily killed by simple natural factors that she herself never has to deal with. And if Kara were to get caught, Alice would be taken away from her. She’d be brought back to Todd, or be put in some sort of foster system if Todd is dead. She’d get every promise of a better life ripped away from her. Imagine the decommissioning camp sequence. Kara gets caught so they’re brought there to be terminated. Since Alice is an android, the consequences of getting to that point are now just that you need to get out. If Alice were a real kid then the consequence would instead be Alice being completely removed from Kara’s watch. Alice being an android actively makes that sequence less dread inducing. It would be more than “we need to get out of here.” It’s “if I don’t get out of here RIGHT NOW, Alice will lose the only good thing she had. It’s so dumb. The twist is so dumb. It removes the nuance and potential of the ideas it once held, and it reduces the impact of everything you did before to a fraction of it.

[@sir_pattington1894]

I got so engrossed in the Star Trek portion that going back to Detroit gave me whiplash.

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

same here, and I don't even like Star Trek! (not that I hate it, I just never watched it and never intend on watching it)

[@ThugOG30VIPs3rd-T]

Frrr

[@drbuni]

I rewatched the Star Trek portion twice.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

im not even interested in star trek and i was INVESTED

[@Dhips.]

It's a really good episode.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

David Cage in 2018: "Slavery bad." Critics: "Stunning and brave!"

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

david cage: minorities are real critics: THIS GAME IS SO BRAVE WE'VE NEVER HEARD THIS MESSAGE BEFORE

[@vethenoir]

Critics all over the world have a combined iq of 2 (maybe 3)

[@D-vb]

2020: BLM Critics: wtf game bad

[@literallyvergil1686]

@@D-vb well they did burn cities down lmao

[@RiseUpToYourAbility]

How is slavery is bad still a commentary in a first world country in 2022. I assume if you have enough money to buy a PS4, games, and have access to electricity you are most likely living pretty comfortably in a society where slavery doesn't exist. Plus I don't want my phone or laptop to gain sentience. When I click on google chrome I don't want my computer to go "I don't feel like it."

[@ShadowHeartValentine]

New plot interpretation: kamski wanted to engage in a slight amount of tomfoolery

[@Calvin_Coolage]

That is honestly the only interpretation that makes sense to me.

[@PK_Scratch]

Reminds me, I wrote quite the detailed breakdown of a likely incidental bit of lore that explains all of this game is just Kamski playing god fully knowing that the androids are not sentient, since their deviancy is a hardwired programming he intentionally implemented. If the android uprise and gain rights, he gets to feel like a God who created a new race. If they fail, he gets to gloat (edit: autocorrect made me write float) in the superiority of humans over his own most near perfect creations. You get that from bits of very crucial information he just randomly drops and also based on his demeanor in one of the endings where he has an interview and shows clear disappointment when his deviancy protocol didn't amount to much. It in turn further puts into question if these robots had any free will either or were just acting out based on an even more complex algorithm that Kamski hard baked into every android models. But I doubt the writers even realized what they did, since it's so subtle and could just be a circumstance of coincidence, since they wrote a metric shit ton of text that doesn't always meshes together logically, y'know?

[@thechineserussian]

10:31 I feel like this showcases Connor's detective skills in addition to parts of his deviance. Going off of the death of Hank's son and his dislike of androids as well as other clues, Connor can infer what happened to Cole and provide his own reasoning of what happened in depth due to the personal relationship he had with Hank, something a regular Connor wouldn't normally be able to do.