Did Yoda & Obi-Wan really expect Luke to kill Vader & Sidious? (Exploring Star Wars)

[@CappnRob]

In the context of the original trilogy taken as it is, I think that yes, Yoda and Obi-Wan expected Luke to either destroy or otherwise incapacitate Vader and the Emperor in some capacity. Mercy and forgiveness was not on the table in their minds. Luke's whole deal is about walking the Road Less Traveled, seeking the hard solutions over the easier, obvious ones. To destroy Vader would rid the galaxy of his evil for sure. That's why they kept secret the knowledge he was Luke's father, to make it easier for him to approach such a feat. Luke's feat is taking the teachings of the Jedi that are good (such as self control, discipline, etc) and defying the dogmatic doctrines that caused their downfall (detachment from loved ones). By keeping his heart open and thus susceptible to the Dark Side, Luke made himself vulnerable, but that vulnerability also became his greatest strength when the time came for his final confrontation.

Well said!

[@smartalec2001]

Yoda would have told Luke the truth when Luke had finished his training on Dagobah. Until then, the concern was that if they just told him before he was ready to handle it, he'd never be together enough to finish the training.

[@GP.Records]

EXACTLY 👏👏👏

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

Exactly! I that's why I love Luke Skywalker and Star Wars so much! ❤ And that's why I hate what they did to him in TLJ 💔 and now in TBOBF 💔💔

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

@@smartalec2001 But he did and he was

[@dereklopez9060]

Luke was the embodiment of hope, a hero that never gives up no matter how dark it get's. He sensed the good in his father ( despite so many atrocities he's done ), but Luke never gave up on him. Proving Obi-Wan and Yoda wrong, that the dark side can be resisted. So for Luke to just all of the sudden freak out about Ben Solo's bad dream and dark side tendencies and attempts to kill his nephew is extremely out of character. Also Luke left his family and friends, not bother caring what happens to them is also out of character. Another thing is Luke is Ben Solo's uncle, so the fact that he's being aloof and non-caring towards his own nephew is also out of character. TLJ did Luke super dirty, and nobody can change my mind. Sam Witwer was so right about TLJ.

[@jkdbuck7670]

They not only did Luke dirty, they did Mr. Hammil dirty. And the fans.

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

@@jkdbuck7670 And Luke and Star Wars

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

ABSOLUTELY

[@Paradox-es3bl]

I think you mean, "Nobody CAN change my mind." You (presumably) accidentally said "Nobody can't change my mind" which means "Anyone and everyone could change my mind."

[@joshwhite5730]

This barely has to do with the video and you doubt have to say don’t change your mind I don’t have the patience to do it

[@MTV2O2O]

They were hoping Lando would solve all thier problems and blow up the Death Star II with the Emperor and Vader inside it, Luke was only the distraction

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

They didn't need a distraction, it was all for Luke's benefit

[@jblonde711]

That's what Luke was hoping for.

[@SkywalkerSamadhi]

Pretty sure that was Luke’s Plan A as well. He was feeling the guilt from killing all the people on the first Death Star and was hoping to be released by the sweet embrace of Death.

[@dharter89]

I think that although they did want it, they didn't have much hope. Otherwise Kenobi would have trained Luke since early childhood.

[@wray2real]

Don't think that would have worked. Vader had no idea who Luke was until he started training. The more training Luke got the stronger his connection became to Vader. Childhood training would have put Luke on the radar way too early.

[@SFisher1993]

My stance: yes, they wanted him to kill Vader originally after what he became. They felt he was beyond saving, and maybe even considered it a mercy kill, since he was a prisoner in that awful suit. But Luke’s mission proved them wrong, and with the Force ghosts’ expressions in mind, I think they liked being proven wrong deep down. That and Luke sees Vader/Anakin as a link to the family he never knew. He grew up never knowing his dad, so of course he’d logically try to help him turn.

[@saloz9483]

Yup this is my thought process as well. They never wanted Luke to find out Vader was his father. The crazy thing is this could've easily blown up in their faces since lets say Vader never told him that he was his father and Luke killed Vader and Sidious was the one to tell him the truth. Luke could've been devastated by this and Sidious could manipulate Luke telling him how the Jedi lied to him and such and bam Sidious has a new younger apprentice.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@saloz9483 And Sidious wouldn't even have to lie even a little. I mean IRL the reasons for this confusion is retcons to justify contradictions. And the fact that Lucas doubles down on the old Jedi order being inflexible asshats only reinforces the idea that Ben and Yoda were manipulating Luke for "the greater good". The whole "certain point of view" bullshit either makes Ben seem like he was manipulating Luke and still trying to cover his own ass, or that he's an idiotic ideologue who doesn't comprehend that what he's saying wouldn't fly with someone outside of his cult. It was a bad decision either way to keep that knowledge from him. I doubt they would've told him until he was properly indoctrinated into their pov. The ONLY reason this isn't a bigger problem is that it works out in the end. Luke tells the old Jedi AND the Emperor to all go fuck themselves with their false dichotomy and finds his own way. Which is also why I think it was total garbage for "Luke" to force that "choice" on Grogu in Book of Boba Fett.

[@nickcarroll8565]

@@darwinxavier3516 forcing the choice was sort of necessary for the canon of Kylo Ren being Luke’s first student. But, thematically I agree with you.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@nickcarroll8565 Oh, I have no doubts that it was to force the Mandoverse to conform to the dumpster fire sequel trilogy timeline. Because god forbid we have an on screen Luke Skywalker who doesn't turn out to be an incompetent failure that stupidly tries to murder his nephew over a dream.

[@roviH]

This made me imagine Obi-wan and Yoda exchanging awkward glances as Anakin joins them as a Force ghost

[@JoRoq1]

Obi-Wan’s response that “the Emperor has already won” was not so much disappointment that Luke wouldn’t kill Vader as expected, but that Luke was not leaving himself open to all the possible actions he might have to take. Once Palpatine knew that Luke wouldn’t cross that line, he could use it against Luke. Also, Luke was speaking out of emotion in saying he couldn’t kill Vader, not after calm reflection and reasoning. That emotional fixation was a potential hook for the Dark Side, and if Luke fell he would become the next Vader.

[@smartalec2001]

I think the Jedi never actually planned for Luke or Leia to be trained and sent to face Vader. It was a surprise to Obi-Wan when Luke showed up, bearing Leia's message. That's when he realises something's in motion, something he doesn't understand but can recognise it's happening, and decides to bring Luke along. The 'he killed your father' line was something he had to come up with in the spur of the moment; it wasn't meant to manipulate Luke, but he felt he couldn't just tell Luke the truth right then and there, and he had no better answer prepared. Yoda, too, wasn't sure what was happening, and was more sceptical than Obi-Wan, but went with it too, to see what would happen and if this really was destiny at work. Once Luke had finished his training, become a man more like his RotJ self, Yoda would have told him Vader was his father. They'd have sat him down and said 'ok, you're in a headspace where you can handle this. Here's the truth.' Luke'd be prepared to handle the truth, then. After that, he can do what he feels is right. But Yoda's hesitance to say it makes sense to me; he's old and sad, and is afraid of what telling Luke means. There's a depth of sadness in Yoda. "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. *Old friends, long gone."* Of course that's what Yoda sees; it's all he has. He seems more resigned to the end of the Jedi than Obi-Wan is, and I think him refusing to train Luke in the beginning is simply because he doesn't think it'll achieve anything, and he doesn't want to see Luke go down a bad or painful road. However, in RotJ, I think Yoda can tell Luke's come a long way since he saw him in ESB, and Yoda doesn't have much more to teach him. They were training him to confront the truth about his father, and by some miracle, he did it without dying or falling. He understands the spirit of the Jedi, lives it, and his skills are pretty solid. I think Luke killing Vader was what Obi-Wan expected, but neither he nor Yoda had any clear idea exactly what would happen, and they weren't going to insist on it either. They just wanted Luke to face the old man, as seemed inevitable one way or another, and then have faith it'd work out - that the destiny that was in motion would take its course. After years as the enforcers of the Republic, they'd finally realised trying to control the flow of events rather than just letting them flow was what had hobbled them in the first place. They manage a little faith; enough to get Luke more-or-less ready for whatever it is he's going to do.

[@thedarkknight5701]

Wow, that’s well-said! The idea that Obi-Wan and Yoda were just kind of winging it with Luke (as Lucas was doing with the overall story) is interesting/unique and makes sense. My initial thought was that dialogue in the prequels (and the ending of Revenge of the Sith in particular) problematizes your theory, but actually the foreshadowing of events in the OT in those films is adequately vague. Yoda and Obi-Wan’s initial plan may have been to go for a second round with the Sith themselves after a period of hiding, with Obi-Wan watching over Luke only to ensure that he did not get found and exploited by his father. But the Empire became too powerful, etc. etc., so they had to improvise as new opportunities (i.e. Luke’s potential) presented themselves.

[@JettQuasar]

Rather than expecting Luke to kill Vader and Sideous... I think they HOPED he would.

[@darkjediknight2923]

Good point

[@lonebattledroid4474]

Yoda's plan: Step 1: Train Luke to kill Vader Step 2: ??? Step 3: Save the Galaxy

[@WillieHoule]

Personnaly, I think Yoda and Obi-Wan lost all hope of Anakin coming back to the light, they thought Luke being the son of the "chosen one" could have to potential to defeat Vader and the emperor (either by killing them or at least put them in prison) But Luke made an unexpected move and never gave up on Anakin and did everything he could to save his father even if that would have him killed him (that's why Obi-wan was disapointed because he never believed Anakin would come back and Luke was doomed to fail). So in the end, you could say it was... "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one".

[@duckymomo6472]

It all goes back to the prophecy about Anakin being balance. Having faith in what Qui Gon believed and being willing to through anything remotely sentimental at Vader in the hopes of triggering his fate.

[@SillyGirlKisser74]

I think that either both Yoda and Obi Wan had surrendered hope and saw killing vader as the only way, Luke Skywalker, being Luke Skywalker never gives up on the hope and shows that redemption is possible even for those so far gone to the dark another possibility is that Yoda and Obi Wan didn't want Luke to know Vader was his father and wanted him to destroy Vader was because a jedi shouldn't have attachments and family means a lot for Luke, seeing how he was tipped towards the dark side by Vader when he mentioned turning Leia

[@whythatspreposterous]

I just love that all of this can be so deeply and thoroughly debated from multiple sides. There's so many ways to read the 'text', is there actually one right way?

[@SpectrumGamer29]

Obi Wan and Yoda would have known that Luke could potentially kill Vader, but would have no hope against Palpatine. They never tell Luke to kill Vader. They tell him to confront Vader. That is his great trial. He will only become a Jedi when he faces his father and overcomes his fear. He nearly fails his trial but ultimately realises that if he kills his father, he will become him. He then throws away his lightsaber. What did Yoda and Obi Wan learn from the Clone Wars/Jedi Purge? Attempting to match the Sith with combat ultimately leads to failure. In the RotS novelisation, Yoda realises that they lost because they had not evolved since their last battle with the Sith, but the Sith had. The Sith had learned that combat was not the way to defeat the Jedi and instead defeated them by corrupting them from within. The great failure of the Jedi was rushing into a war in an attempt to stop the Sith, when they shouldn't have gotten involved as military leaders. They should have been peacekeepers and ambassadors for both sides. The Jedi thus learned that combat was not the way to defeat the Sith, but compassion was. It was the compassion of Luke that redeemed Vader. It reminded him of who he was and he turned his back on the dark side. Consider Obi Wan meeting Vader on the Death Star. Kenobi at this point had defeated Maul in seconds because he knew his fighting style. I know Maul was not as powerful as Vader, but he wasn't far off. It isn't a stretch to believe that Kenobi could have killed Vader as he knew Vader better than Maul. But what would killing Vader achieve? Luke would learn the wrong lesson and Palpatine would find a new apprentice. As Vader said, though, escape was not Kenobi's plan. He didn't plan to kill Vader. He intended to die on the Death Star to show Luke the power of the force and, I believe, to show Vader that only the Jedi have access to the abilities Palpatine once promised Anakin. I believe this was as much a demonstration to Luke as it was to Vader. I believe, in all their years under his guidance, both Yoda and Obi Wan believed what Qui Gon said that Anakin was still the chosen one, would bring balance and would destroy the Sith. I believe they knew he could be redeemed, and Luke was the key. I don't think Luke killing Vader was ever the plan, and certainly challenging Palpatine wasn't. I believe they knew that the key was the compassion of the Jedi, a compassion they had lost in trying to meet the Sith in war.

[@InspectorWhoReacts]

I think both Obi and Yoda did simply want Luke to strike down Vader and Palpatine, wanting him to do so as a Jedi without any risk of conflict in killing the sith, both of them had failed at defeating/turning the sith before, but that didn't mean Luke would fail, at least had been better trained, but i think at this point it was do or die time for them.

[@JD.Martin]

You could interpret Kenobi's "then the emperor has already won" comment as disappointment that Luke views the confrontation as having only one possible outcome; kill his own father. That, in turn, means Luke is destined to fail because he thinks that's the only way to pass the test, like how he failed in the cave. This is the exact opposite of what the Jedi are taught and, on the eve of the confrontation, Luke still hadn't figured it out. That being a Jedi Knight isn't simply a title to be bestowed but a philosophy and a way of life.

[@jonathanryan9946]

My headcanon is that Luke, to Yoda, was a sacrificial trainee. It was his role to defeat Vader, train his sister, then be mortally wounded defeating Sidious. All so the sister, who wasn't emotionally destroyed could become the true next Grand Master of the Jedi Order... basically Lucas's plan. To him, Luke was the warrior and the sister was the true next leader of the Jedi Order. To Obi-wan, Luke was his redemption for failing Anakin. He hoped that Yoda was wrong and could do better. Defeating Vader, overcoming his emotions about it, training his sister, and then together they'd defeat Palpatine. However, Luke surprised both of them and did what they considered impossible. Bringing his father back from the darkside through love.

[@samsoncrosswood7259]

Excellent analysis. This was his Trial. To quote a favorite novel of mine - stand, and be true.

[@mpnuorva]

Yoda said that Luke needed to "confront" Vader, so I'm not convinced he wanted Luke to kill Anakin. Obi-Wan seemed to consider it a tragic necessity, because to his appraisal Anakin was gone and according to Vader he had tried to turn Vader before. Given the circumstances of their last meeting, I can't say I'm surprised Vader wasn't in the nicest mindset. So to Obi-Wan, Anakin's redemption was a surprise, but a welcome one. That said, I think Luke did need to fight Vader. Not fighting Vader only locked tem in a loop where Vader is trying to get under Luke's skin while Luke is pleading Vader to be good. This is at least in part because Vader's motivation was trying to manage Luke's life for him. So I think Luke absolutely did need to neutralize Vader and show him that Luke can take care of himself and make his own choices.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

You got it

[@darkjediknight2923]

@BK Beatty Exactly.

[@longgone6312]

I like the conclusion u came to put a few tears in my eye

[@Tolbat]

Thank you for making this video. This has always been a question heavy in my mind. Listening to your intro made me think of something... Perhaps they expected Luke to kill Vader and be forced into being Palatine's pupil and the plan was to save Luke after he had learned the Emperors secrets? But then that also goes against Yoda's training. Who knows.

[@Adrenalyn54]

hey man this video was really good i liked those ideas i've never really thought about befor!

[@stanislawrutkowski6456]

Idk i feel like they really did want Luke to somehow get rid of vader& emperor, but they knew it wasn't going to be anywhere near easy, that's why they insisted on Luke finishing his training (also possibly to make Luke ready to handle the truth while still doing what must to be done). Once Luke learned the truth they couldn't prepare him more for it. Untill this situation was resolved Luke wouldn't be able to use his full potential because of his hesitance. Only after confronting vader, would his mind be in the right state for him to achieve full power. I just think the whole point was to have Luke capable of controlling his emotions, since they saw them as a potential threat to Luke's path as a Jedi. They wanted Luke to forget about personal attachments and focus on the bigger picture, but he kept on going to first save his friends, then his father. In the end Luke showed that the way to conquer hate isn't just through composure, but through love. P.S. I'm ignoring the idea of timeless forceghosts because fitting it in any way to what happened in this movies takes just to much mental gymnastics.

[@庫倫亞利克]

I think they do want Luke to kill Vader, hence why they hide Vader's true identity from Luke: They don't want him to hesitate when he has the chance to kill him. As for Sidious, I doubt either of them think Luke has any chance beating someone that Yoda and Windu both fail to defeat, but it's not like they have any other option.

[@THETYMEKK12]

Yes!

[@thomas8431]

They did have other options though. (Obi Wan, Yoda, Ahsoka, Kanan, Cal Kestis, Nari, etc). The reason they chose Leia and Luke is specifically because the twins had far MORE potential than Yoda or Mace or certainly Obi Wan/ Kanan, etc ever could.

[@bonfireman6858]

Yoda and Obi-Wan looked at it with a sense of Duty as Jedi.. which is why they did not tell Luke that Anakin was his father.. they didn't have faith in the Selfless Love that Luke felt for his father which is why Luke turned himself over to Vader and the emperor.. Luke did the will of the Living Force by Selflessly not giving up on his Father which allowed Vader (Anakin) to fulfill the Prophecy and bring balance by destroying Sidious... ( supposedly🙄)

[@neocomp92]

"Swords are weapons and swordsmanship is a killer's art. No amount of beautiful words or oration can change this truth."- Hiko Seijiro XIII Perhaps for the first time in his fighting life, Luke does not believe in the notion that purpose determines morality, and it supersedes the action. That why you kill Imperials outweighs the killing itself. He now has a face, a name and a blood relation to the man everyone wanted dead. And it created this dilemma between trying to save his father and avoid patricide, vs his duty as a Rebel and a Jedi. His personal beliefs vs the greater good. Luke's heroism stems from him being trained as a classical hero (one who slays evil), yet he chose the harder path for most of the time on the Death Star. It was only when Vader threatened his sister that he gave into the dark and almost went for the kill, before regaining his composure. He opted the second path, and by luck he managed to weasel a third outcome that killed the Emperor and redeemed Anakin. The problem I think people have with this notion that Obi-Wan and Yoda planned to train one or both twins to commit patricide and regicide is that it has Machiavellian overtones incongruous to our perception of the objective good, and the old, wise mentors. Sort of like when Dumbledore was revealed to be the chessmaster who was willing to sacrifice Harry to beat Voldemort. Of course, in that story there was the implication that Harry surviving the killing curse was planned out, and that somewhat justified Dumbledore's actions. Again, on the morality scale, purpose precedes action. Ends justify the means. A few commentators are using this notion as a possible explanation for Obi-Wan and Yoda's actions. But I think one should step away from the copium for a while, and consider how Machiavellian plans like these sound like to those ancillary to it. The fulfillment of the Chosen One prophecy (disregarding the ST) suggests that the billions dead, most of whom do not adhere to the ways of the Jedi or Sith, were necessary at the end. That they were "worth" it for the greater good. Imagine finding out someone you loved died in fulfillment of a prophecy from a religion you don't follow. Not only does it challenge your view on the "true" path/God, but (as it should) challenge your view on what kind of "good" this religion purportedly preaches. Not that it matters for our heroes and adherents, but it doesn't change that fact to those on the outside. That's the problem with purpose. It's subject to one's view. Why morality is not set in stone, why no one can answer whose God truly exist. And wars are the final arbitrator to the question of whose purpose is superior.

[@True-Believer616]

I have a feeling they didn't want him to find out the truth because they wanted to avoid the conflict and hesitation that it caused within Luke.

[@oscarstainton]

It’s interesting to consider that Obi-Wan and Yoda did not expect the Emperor to almost succeed in coaxing Luke as extensively as he did. In the past, Jedi were expected to dispatch foes (as a last resort mind you) dispassionately and without allowing anger and hatred to overtake them. Or, maybe they wanted Luke to just “face Darth Vader again” not necessarily kill him and Palpatine, they maybe have expected him to think outside the box and leave it entirely in their hands. It’s also interesting that the last time Luke, though untrained, was fully intent on killing Vader, he thoroughly failed because he was in part running on blind anger as well as inexperience.

[@Adam_X78]

I guess so yeah it is a bit odd when you think of it I mean Luke needed so much more training

[@jayoungr]

A very thought-provoking video, thank you! The more I think about it, the more I think Yoda and Obi-Wan were not prescribing Luke to right the wrongs of the past in a specific way. They had the trust and humility to believe their job was just to train Luke in the true ways of the Force and set him on a course to encounter the Sith, and that the Force would guide him when the time came. Which is what happened.

[@gregthackray]

I feel that this line is key "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" Yoda + Obi-Wan were now in The Force. Having the presence of those two in The Living Force would help to shift The Force's balance immensely. Which would empower Luke. And possibly guide + help him as he'd have a stronger connection with it. At one time G.Lucas was even going to have Yoda's "ghost" deflect The Emperor's lightning to protect him. I think he was going to have Luke + his twin face the Sith together too at one time. But when he made Leia his twin, it made more sense to have Luke complete the heroes' journey alone! I feel Yoda already feel's that Luke know's Darth is his Dad. They probably feel that Vader is beyond redemption + that Luke knowing would only weaken him via an attachment. Of course Luke is a new kind of Jedi. One who know's that a love attachment isn't necessarily a bad thing. But Ben + Yoda know that it's Luke's destiny from birth. And whenever you have tension in any energy. It has to be resolved. The conflict in ROTJ is inevitable. He say's "Vader, you must confront Vader. Only then a Jedi will you be." Luke wasn't ready to face Vader in TESB. And Ben couldn't interfere as Luke made a rash choice. Luke even say's "I'm sorry. But I've come back to complete the training." Yoda replie's "No more training do you require" because Luke learnt + grew from his loss to Vader. There's no escaping one's destiny. Some thing's are set in stone. It's how you choose to respond what determine's your path. Whether you grow beyond something or if "Forever will it dominate your destiny." Luke was reckless to go face Vader but he said no to joining him. That's Luke's test in ROTJ. Can he remain in The Force or will he be seduced by The Emperor? It's not alway's about pure fighting skill's. Sometime's you have to choose + then let go or trust The Force to guide you in the moment. Luke even say's "I am a Jedi like my father before me." He know's that he's passed The Emperor's test + that he's now a Jedi. He let's go by throwing his weapon away. The Force intervened + saved Luke via his father. Even in real life. Sometime's even great master's are surprised by how the Source of all resolve's thing's! Last point. Obi-Wan knew about Leia but he saw her more as a political leader I think.

[@4891MR]

Great topic! I always saw Obi-Wan as more the warrior type than Yoda. It is interesting that Yoda is so pointed with Luke in ESB about fighting not being the answer. There's also the scene where Luke kills the Force-vision of Vader (even though Yoda told him not to even take his weapons) and then the vision shows he had destroyed himself. Obi-Wan had considered Anakin his own brother, though, before taking on the duty to kill him. It's significant to his RotJ line about Vader being now mostly machine that this means of survival ran counter to damage done years before by Obi-Wan himself. I think he regrets Vader's ongoing evil-doing. I'm dubious about his status as a Force-ghost having altered his consciousness on the issue so much. Yoda is in contact with him and with other Force-ghosts probably on re4gular basis well before ESB, but his power to see the future is still not reliable. It gives one pause to consider them communicating with Qui-Gon, however; regardless of whether Qui-Gon could reliably prophesize that reforming Anakin would work, I have no doubt that in his character that would be the strategy he would support.

[@emeldy2687]

I think both Obi Wan and Yoda, just wanted to have Luke as well trained in the force as a Jedi, as they could do under the circumstances. The problem with using logic to discern the force is that the force is essentially a religion, the two things don't coalesce. In order for Luke to "win" he needs to fully embrace his faith in the force. They don't know how it will unfold whether Luke will dig deep and kill them both unleashing the full power of the force or if the force itself would guide his hand in a way that allows him to achieve victory in some other way... which is what happened.

[@alanpena8643]

Neither Yoda or Obi-Wan told Luke to surrender to Vader and have him take him to the Emperor. They just told him to confront Vader. Luke not wanting to kill his father put himself in an impossible situation when it came to winning a fight. They probably just wanted Luke to face Vader and hopefully defeat him or at least get over his feelings of not wanting to kill his father for the greater good to become a Jedi Knight and live on to fight another day and keep getting stronger until he could face Sidious. Destroying the Sith was the end goal for them but they didn’t tell Luke “ok Luke you have to kill them in the next day or so, because this is the last movie and we don’t have time to wait anymore.”

[@mikehurt3290]

I think it was a cool detail in the season 2 final of the Mandorioian Moff Gideon being terrified when he sees Luke come in, all he knows that Luke was in the same room with the 2 most powerful people in the Galaxy and was the only one that came out alive

[@otakubullfrog1665]

I think that it was less about whether or not Obi-Wan and Yoda Luke could win against Vader and Palpatine and more that there was no one else left to fight them at that point. Yoda wanted give Luke more training when they first met, but his time had run out by the time they met again. Since Vader now knew who Luke was, he would be hunted down anywhere in the galaxy if he tried to run, so there was no choice left but to face his destiny.

[@alanpena8643]

Yoda and Obi-Wan only told Luke he had to face Vader, not the Emperor in RotJ. Yes they said Vader and the Emperor were the enemy in EsB but that just means that’s the end goal, in RotJ they just wanted Luke to kill Vader. After that they could deal with the Emperor in the future, or maybe the rebellion could help Luke do it. “Stopped they must be, on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.”~Yoda “Then I am a Jedi?”~Luke “Oh?! Not yet, one thing remains. Vader, you must confront Vader. Then and only then, a Jedi will you be.”~Yoda Yoda did not want to tell Luke that Vader was his father because it would be a burden on him when he fought Vader. If they wanted Luke to just resist the dark side and prove himself a Jedi then why not tell him. Luke would have no reason to spare Vader if he didn’t know he was his father. If that was the case he would have fallen to the Dark side. Also force ghost exist in a place where there is no past or future as Qui Gon told Yoda in the Clone Wars. When Yoda asked him if he could see the future, but Qui Gon did not say he could only that he could show him a place where the answers could be revealed to him. Force Ghost might not be allowed to see the future.

[@smartalec2001]

From what Yoda says, it seems more like they were hoping to get him to the kind of mindset and serenity he has in RotJ, before they told him. If they just told him outright, they were concerned that he'd never get there. 'Not ready for the burden, were you.' But they would have told him, and before he left Dagobah.

[@alanpena8643]

@@smartalec2001 Yes if he was a fully trained Jedi then they would have told Luke. They thought he would be ready for the burden of having to kill his own father for the greater good of the Galaxy.

[@THETYMEKK12]

I think the whole situation is very subtle and complex - and I love it.. Obi Wan and Yoda lost hope in the redemption of Vader (maybe that's why Kenobi needs to confront him in the upcoming series). Yoda knew that telling Luke, Vader is his father would make things more difficult for him and, I think, the was concerned that he already knew that (the seed of conflict in him that Vader sown could lead him to the darkside).

[@TheJohan167]

This was super-refreshing - have been so much critique against modern day Disney lately (love your content anyway). I really need to rewatch the OG trilogy, it’s been so long!

[@joshparnell7755]

"I can't kill my own father." "Then the Emperor has already won." That's pretty impossible to get around. They clearly wanted him to kill Sidious and Vader. And I'm sorry, but "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil," is definitely not what you tell a son to strengthen his faith in his father. My understanding is that, in their minds, Anakin fell because of his attachments. So, they are counting on his attachments to continue to be his undoing. Vader's attachment to Luke will prevent him from killing Luke, giving Luke the opportunity to kill him, pretend to become Palpatine's apprentice, and then kill Palpatine when opportunity arises. Or perhaps Vader would kill the Emperor to save Luke, and then Luke would kill Vader. Those are two possible-though-improbable scenarios in which Luke could have killed them both. Obi-Wan and Yoda already know that they can't take the Sith in a straight fight; a tactic like this is their only choice. And if that seems dark for the Jedi, it's because it is. But in their minds that would all be completely justified. Luke did the right thing, despite what Obi-Wan and Yoda told him.

[@marianfranklin8383]

My theory as always been, is that both Yoda and Kenobi is for Luke to go Fire and Brimstone with the lightside on both Vader and Sidious. People needs to stop thinking White is all nice and lawful. I played a vengeance Paladin in DnD.

[@joshparnell7755]

@@marianfranklin8383 I’m currently playing a paladin for the first time, just hit level two. Any pointers? I’ve played a cleric for the past two years so it’s been a little bit of an adjustment.

[@highhorseo7875]

I'm sure they meant for Luke to kill the Sith as they had tried to do in ep3. They had lost their way, getting too involved in the bureaucracy of the Republic over their years of service, so I think that was informing their decision making. It didn't seem like they learned anything from their mistakes in the Prequels. I think their way of doing things was meant to contrast with how Luke handled the situation, like a true Jedi and not a warrior.

[@gameactual]

I think the answer to what Obi Wan and Yoda “knew” comes from what Kenobi told Maul at the end of Rebels 3x20 “Twin Suns”. “Is it the chosen one?” “He is”. They had learned from their previous “misreading” of the prophecy (RotS) and trusting in the Force rather than their own ideas. Retcon? Sure, probably. But a good one.

[@T-NUGGZ]

These are great points you bring up in this video. It just shows how the Jedi were still very confused…

[@NightmareTroubador]

I would say yes to Sidious but not necessarily to Vader. A confrontation with both is inevitable, especially the latter as he's always on the front lines. This is why we always hear Yoda and Obi-Wan emphasis this to Luke. "You must confront Vader." A confrontation doesn't necessarily mean you have to kill Vader. But it's likely they expected that Vader wouldn't give Luke or Leia a choice in the matter. That in defending themselves or others they'd end up killing him. Obi-Wan is probably thinking of the same ultimatum that happened on Mustafar ("If you're not with me, then you're my enemy"). Even with Luke he starts of with "Don't make me destroy you." None of it is exactly confidence inducing that if the twins don't turn to the Dark Side that Vader won't follow through with the threat. We the audience even see this again with Ahsoka on Malachor. Now at this point I don't think Obi-Wan or Yoda knew of that event but it doesn't breed confidence to Vader having a change of heart. Which is part of the tension in the film. Will Luke fall like his father? Is he even right about his father? Another big part of this is that they didn't tell Luke about his father. From an in-universe perspective it's not that they were trying to hide it from Luke but wait until he was ready. Yoda pretty much says this in ROTJ, after Luke says 'Unfortunate I know the truth?" Yoda: "No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden were you." To which Luke apologizes. And he's right. Luke was not only beat physically in the fight, but he wasn't mentally or emotionally prepared to learn that such a evil person is his father. In CPOV for ANH, Obi-Wan tells Qui-Gon he hasn't mentioned whole truth about Anakin. Qui-Gon replies: “You’ve only just become acquainted with the boy. Had you tried to tell him the whole story today, that would’ve been a greater mistake than anything else you could’ve done. It would have planted seeds of…doubt, confusion, even anger, which could have led him down his father’s path.” Obi-Wan follows up even echoing my thoughts that he'd just figure Owen was right about Ben being crazy and leave to get home sooner. Thus risking his life and the droids. So it wasn't that they were trying to keep Luke in the dark so much as they were waiting for when he was ready to hear it. As a final note Lucas himself discussed this in the Making of Return of the Jedi and from Star Wars archives that the plan wasn't to kill Vader. Rather that Luke had to accept that he might end up doing so in protecting himself during their confrontation. Hence why I believe Obi-Wan is disappointed after Luke says he can't kill his own father. It's not that Obi-Wan wants him to, just that it's a possibility he has to come to accept.

[@Kilthan2050]

Also, remember Yoda's vision quest story arc in Clone Wars. He considered Anakin to be a friend. Obi-Wan looked at him as brother. Whatever plan they had made, whatever outcome they hoped for, would have been hard. It is entirely possible that they spent the intervening decades accepting that they would have train their friend's son to fight, and either die fighting their friend or to kill their friend. I would guess the reason they seem so happy at the end is because its probably the ending they never dared to hope for. In preparing for it they likely made peace with anakin being cut off from the force forever, dying in the dark side.

[@bandras87]

I think I read somewhere that Sir Alec Guiness had so little faith in the project, that he asked Lucas to kill him off in episode IV, but originally he was supposed to survive, at least the 1st movie. It might just be an urban legend though.

[@thomas8431]

The reason is that (according to George Lucas and canon) Luke had the exact same M-Count as Anakin (somewhere between 35-40K). This officially made Luke (and Leia) two more "chosen ones" as it were. Also, according to George, Obi Wan had an M-Count around 15k, and Yoda around 21K. Therefore, Yoda and Obi Wan were absolutely right to hide these two new "chosen ones" to use as future weapons against the Sith. Basically, Obi Wan and Yoda "failed" with the first chosen one, so they were not going to fail with the next "chosen ones." In essence, Luke and Leia are weapons of mass destruction, and far, far more powerful than Yoda or Obi Wan could EVER hope to be.

[@ns14725]

Paying close attention to the lines from Empire and Jedi, it seems to me that Obi-wan and Yoda just needed Luke to be willing to confront Vader and Palpatine and the force would give him the necessary strength to endure, as he is the last hope. I don't think they believe Luke was going to kill Vader and Palpatine via skills but rather thru belief.

[@puddincupp]

This is a pretty good question. I don't like the Prequels, but thinking about the end of the Prequels, why would they think Luke could handle going mano a mano with Sidious. Yoda straight up told Obi Wan that Obi Wan couldn't take Sidious in RotS. It seems crazy that the characters from the Prequels would think this is a good idea in RotJ.

[@istari0]

I don't know that they thought it was a good idea as they didn't have a better option.

[@pedrorenault5335]

That wasn’t a good idea, it was the only idea. Obi Wan and Yoda were dead, there was no other Jedi Masters to train another Jedi besides Luke and he was pretty skilled himself

[@NathanielMiller]

I'd suggest reading the novelization of Episode 3; in the fight between Yoda and Sidious, there's a good look inside Yoda's head at that moment, and what would need to happen...

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

The word they use is confront. They need to have a showdown one way or the other in order for Luke to spiritually progress and become a Jedi. It's not about killing them even though that is a possibility. The whole setup is immaterial to the Battle of Endor - "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me." They are going to die either way. It's a spiritual conflict, it's a trial just like the cave.

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

"I can't kill my own father" "Then the Emperor has already won"

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

@@BuscaLoEsencial He had to be willing to kill him if it came down to it, but it wasn't the only outcome

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

@@TheMinskyTerrorist That is not the meaning of those words

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

@@BuscaLoEsencial It clearly was if you take Yoda's words into account

[@BuscaLoEsencial]

@@TheMinskyTerrorist I don't agree

[@leviwarren6222]

Not having considered it the way I should have, I've always assumed that Yoda and Obi-Wan intended Luke to become a Jedi by facing his father. I've never really been sold on the idea that they specifically intended Luke to kill him or did they foresaw the way things would turn out but I think they truly believe the prophecy that no matter what form it took, balance would be brought to the force. Perhaps they thought the only way to do that was to bring Anakin into contact with his son. This might explain why Yoda told Obi-Wan that there is another because only Luke or Leia could have reached their father in such a way, although it better fits mythology that it was Luke.

[@Apollo1989V]

It is similar situation to Tolkien. He wanted to publish the Silmarillion, but the publisher wanted a sequel to The Hobbit. While writing TLOR, Tolkien merged The Hobbit with his middle earth mythology, which was not the original intent. Lucas, however, had a different problem due to the media difference. Tolkien changed The Hobbit to fit in more with the sequel, but film does not allow for changes as easily, hence the certain point of view excuse from Obi Wan.

[@LH74]

Obi-Wan “That boy was our last hope.” Yoda: “No… there is another.” Why did Obi-Wan forget they are twins? Why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda just train both Luke and Leia together so they could stand a better chance against Palpatine? So many plot holes.

[@ivancerecer5758]

Because they wanted the twins to reach to them, so the choice was theirs to make Obi-Wan wanted Luke, because it reminded him of Anakin in his good years Yoda of course saw that as a mistake due to Anakin turning evil, and thus wanted Obi Wan to bring Leia Leia is more collected and level-headed than Luke, mainly because she has to be in her line of work Unfortunately, her focus would not be to the Force, but rather, lead others and build a new Republic (which is what happened, Luke trained her and she still didn't become full time jedi) Also, Leia must've reminded Obi Wan of Padme, and knew that her heart would not be to the force, but the people

[@austinjohnsen4430]

Because originally that line wasn’t referring to Leia. Lucas didn’t originally intend for Leia to be Luke’s sister until he got to work on Jedi.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

Since people seem dead set on the idea that all they cared about was killing Vader and the Emperor, I will point out what the actual canon sources said before the prequels. In the Timothy Zahn books it's explicitly stated that Yoda and Obi Wan could have wiped out the Emperor and Vader any time they wanted to. Their purpose in sending Luke was for Luke's own benefit, not theirs. It was not about killing, it was about spiritual confrontation, like with the cave in ESB.

[@bibipixels]

* Obi Wan and Yoda meeting Anakin's force ghost * A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one

[@Jansenbaker]

Very interesting. I never noticed the paradox circle of "Becoming a Jedi is required, for you to face Vader, but you must face Vader before you are truly a Jedi." Your ideas on Force Ghosts line up with mine. This video opened up ideas.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

Honestly I figured Yoda just realized the situation changed, and thus what needed to happen with Luke also had to. After all he seems at least well rounded with his combative Jedi skills, and now that darth vader has told him the truth its only going to ba a distraction to his spiritual completion.

[@bendu8282]

A lot of people think that Ben & Yoda lost their way based off this quote but they didn’t they were warning Luke to be on his guard when facing Vader & The Emperor, and that since they don’t believe Vader could be saved they’re thinking Luke may have to kill him to not fail. This isn’t out of anger, emotion, or vengeance this is out of urgency of the situation, they’re not just thinking for Luke or The Jedi they’re thinking what needs to be done for the fate of The Galaxy. Jedi will consider killing if it’s necessary but they’re not blood thirsty. The Original Trilogy spits in the face of The Jedi were corrupt or evil narrative at any point throughout all three films. This scene was no acception.

[@MariahJade1]

Ben I think had given up hope on Anakin being inside Vader and he needed Luke to finish the job he failed at. Yoda may have felt the same way until he found out Vader told Luke who he was. In fact before he dies he seems pretty confident that Luke will survive his showdown because Yoda tells him to pass on his Jedi Knowledge to his family. So he may have seen a future where Luke prevailed and he tells him to watch out for Vader and the Emperors emotional manipulation and not to underestimate them.

[@shawnpanzegraf5642]

Yanno, I keep hearing that famous “For knowledge and defense” line, but it was pretty obvious that pretty much EVERYONE who meaningfully contributed to the pre-Prequels era history of the Expanded Universe envisioned an early history where the Jedi seldom, if ever, possessed the LUXURY of acting only from a place of defensive reactivity. From the beginning, everyone who WASN’T Lucas clearly had difficulties with the idea of any level of passivity, during the eras where the threats of the Dark Side were much more overt. From Tython to Russian, and everything in between the message was “The Jedi DESIRE to be ascetic peacekeepers, but when hundreds, if not thousands of red lightsaber-wielding Dark Siders set the galaxy aflame, the Jedi were forced to go out and meet force with force, because only then could the peace they so ardently desired for the peoples of the galaxy and themselves be achieved.

[@jkdbuck7670]

Exactly. Seems like a weird plan to send a barely-trained almost-Jedi to go fight a Sith Master and his lackey. Yoda said in TESB that only a fully-trained Jedi could conquer Vader and his Emperor. Still seemed like a long shot. And Yoda thought that simply telling Luke to not underestimate the Emperor (and didn't mention Force Lightening) seemed pretty dumb. What I always wanted to know was: why did Vader block Luke's strike when Luke attempted to cut down Palpatine? Perhaps we'll never know, unless Lucas answered it and I haven't read it.

[@playerone6995]

Why wouldn't he? It's not like that shot would have killed Palpatine anyway

[@e.m.1766]

This is perfect. That's exactly what it was. If we are to interpret the story as a story and not a "movie George Lucas is making" Luke's journey to being a weilder of the light side i.e. a Jedi was to able to sense conflict within others. It's a necessary but fundamental aspect of being a Jedi. Not only that, one could also surmise that obi wan (Anakin's greatest master) and Yoda (the greatest master of his era) knew that in order to even consider reverting Anakin from the dark side it would be from the appeal to his potential seen in his own bloodline. One must also consider that Anakin is very passionate about his...family. What more passionate way to strike a cord within the boy from Tattooine (the same boy who pretty much murdered an entire clan of tuskan raiders for killing his mother) than to appeal to his senses with his own flesh and blood. Not only that, but to see that he is still capable of returning to the light side because his son was able to overcome the temptation of the dark side. There's something to be said about this. It proved that being a Jedi didn't mean to shut down ones emotions or passions. It meant that an understanding of being detached from the pain that may come along with feeling for someone or loving someone. Loving and caring for others to the point of defending them without cost was Anakin's innate nature that was painted as his weakness--and that idea nutured as such by the Jedi and exploited by Darth Sidious. My two cents anyways 😅

[@drummerrck]

I think the moment he (Obi-Wan) smiled at Vader after seeing Luke on the death star he knew what needed to happen. He realized that Luke was the one that would have to destroy Vader not physically but symbolically by "resurrecting" Anakin through his compassion for him. And I think it was less about Luke being trained well enough to beat Vader and Palpatine in a fight than him being trained well enough to have strong enough faith in and connection to the force to resist the dark side. That is why they said "he's our last hope" because they didn't think he'd be able to resist (or even survive) Vader.

[@rjonboy7608]

In the original release literature published as fan club articles and such this story was based on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. Lucas modernized this into the Luke-Leia-Han family dynamic with Obi-Wan as mentor and Chewie, R2D2, and C3PO as assistants. Leia and Han are almost the parents Luke never knew at first, they encounter Obi-Wan and grow beyond their accustomed roles while Luke becomes a new Jedi. I always thought the crux was Luke's decision to disobey Yoda on Dagobah and go to Cloud City to rescue his friends. Obi-Wan's ghost tells Luke he is not ready and it is a trap. He loses his hand and barely survives. I imagined Yoda had a couple years more training in mind for Luke then a careful plan more like Jabba's palace to take down Vader and Sidious. Not on their playground by their rules. Remember that at the beginning of ESB Yoda says Luke is always looking to the future, never his mind on what he is doing. That is straight from Hero's Journey. The budding hero gets overconfident and earns a big scar and a memory. I think Yoda or Obi-Wan thought once one started down the dark path it would dominate. It seemed reasonable. Hidden sith infiltration brought down the Republic and installed darkness. Palpatine was completely false. Once Anakin went dark he killed without caring. Once bitten...

[@MedalionDS9]

I think Obi Wan and Yoda both knew their way of taking down the SIth no longer worked, but put their faith in the Force about Luke to do his own thing to resolve this conflict... Luke walked a line between Dark and Light to get through to Vader, when a full LIght side could not

[@rayisdashit]

(the light of the xwing bathes yoda in light), yoda grimaces as he looks up at the sky. "wreckless is he, and now matters are worse." obi wan: "that boy was our only hope" yoda: "no there is another" (yoda is now bathed in bright red light) and its almost as if the film is hinting at the red being symbolic of anakin, and his turn to the sith. without considering georges initial meaning..... it really lays a few bread crumbs that yoda was counting on Anakin the entire time. I like to believe anyway. because ultimate? luke fails. his test, the training, everything. but vader? he's able to return, and save the galaxy.

[@Mgauge]

I like the idea that Obi Wan and Yoda did effectively try to craft Luke into a Sith-seeking weapon. It shows them as still being flawed in their assumptions and still thinking of this as just a war to be fought. Luke proved them wrong and was set up to make a new Jedi order using all he has learned without the flaws of old. At least, that was the plan before the sequels retconned him into the failure we saw there.

[@ADDOITALLDAY]

In the words of Mr. Burns Excellent! Excellent commentary. I believe the mission was to destroy Vader. Weather it be by bringing Anakin back to the light. Or killing Vader straight out. But I think the hope was the love of his son would be enough to bring Anakin back to the light. In that moment of obi wan and Vaders fight on the 1st Death Star. When Obi wan sees Luke Leia and Han escaping to the Falcon. Obi wan turns to Vader with a smile. As if he knows the his children will be the ones to defeat him and the Empire.

[@ariesroc]

While you bring up some good points about the behind the scenes development about the story that doesn't really matter here because it's the six part narrative that Lucas completed that is important. When doing the prequels he thought about how it all fit together. If you point is that he didn't spoon feed us every single detail to every degree you are correct. That wouldn't work for the movies or make sense for the narrative. Every major point that he wanted to address he did so to his own satisfaction. If others aren't satisfied then so be it but he completed his story to how he wanted it to be.

[@serballista]

God, ROTJ will always be my favorite movie.

[@Masteroogway40]

Actually it was a vision yoda had during his fight with darth Sidious. He saw that he had to he had to live and wait until the son of Anakin Skywalker grew up so he could train him.

[@MCsCreations]

Really excellent questions, Thor. But I've got no answers. Only GL can answer them. Anyway... Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@TIGER-xk4gk]

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda had some hope that Anakin could be redeemed though Obi was probably on the verge of giving up before Luke insisted there's good in him

[@StannisBaratheonOTK]

By communing with Qui-Gon, both learned to trust in the living Force. That may have meant being more certain that the Force was guiding them toward this path while being more open to the unknown of exactly how it would unfold. Yoda learned that by the time the Order fell, Obi-Wan later. If we take Filoni/Rebels canon, Obi-Wan may have even been led to believe Luke was actually the Chosen One. He showed the same faith in the Chosen One that Qui-Gon did in Anakin, though falsely made the assumption that it could no longer be Anakin himself.

[@stonerainproductions]

I see this situation kind like Neo visiting the Oracle in The Matrix. Neo is told one thing but ultimately he is left feeling as though he isn't "The One" Obi-wan and Yoda may believe Vader and The Emperor must be dealt with but Ultimately believe Luke will do what's right and try to save Vader and possibly the Emperor. Neo realized he is "The One" when he saves Morpheus and that Neo is willing to do anything to save Morpheus. It's the belief in self that I personally believe Obi-wan and Yoda are installing in Luke, that they believe he is "The One". It could also mean that Obi-wan and Yoda are part of the "Old Guard" who failed and Luke is the realization of the true Return of the Jedi. Thanks Thor, great video.

[@empac8631]

I always took it that they planned for Luke to kill Vader and the Emporer- fulfilling a prophecy they didn’t understand in place of his father. It would make sense that Obi Wan, the closest person to Anakin would truly feel he’s gone. He raised the boy, he was close to Padme and Ahsoka (after PT) and could never imagine Anakin doing what he did, and the way he attacked him with such hatred to the point where Obi Wan was able to use that rage against him showed how far he’d fallen how quickly. We don’t even know what awful things he will see and hear from Vader in the series coming out. Obi would be more likely to give up because of how brainwashed he was by the Jedi, that everything Anakin had become meant he was dead and his friend, who Anakin was and “was supposed to be” would be better off dead instead of causing the havoc he did as Vader. He would see Luke as a grandson and as Vader the man who killed his son/ Luke’s father. Yoda, a Jedi who took his beating as a lesson would be more inclined for Luke to find out the truth…eventually. He still would have the Jedi practice in him that once Luke was fully trained he’d be able to kill Vader if need be, as any Jedi would at his time. This all stems from the belief the Jedi had that once someone went down the dark path they were lost forever, something Luke needed to prove and implement in his own Jedi Academy (not Jake Skywalkers academy) In Empire Yoda wants Luke to stay, avoiding his confrontation with Vader, sacrificing his friends for the “greater good” and completing his training so he would kill Vader if he had to. This is where the Jedi are too stuck in their own ways, that there’s only one way to do something. As for them hiding, I know Lucas had to write it that way for the PT and the OT to connect but it’s one of the brilliant things about Star Wars that the lore can explain things unintentionally. Yoda’s face as he tells Bail he must go into exile I feel is him realizing the Jedi are done, and now to survive they must do what a Sith would do and hide and keep their numbers down to the rule of two. Obi Wan and Yoda would live, Ben sacrifices himself to save Luke once he’s begun down his path and once Yoda is dying and Luke is a Jedi, he’s told he has a twin sister implying a second Jedi. To have to hide for 20 years and let a galaxy suffer and many of the surviving Jedi be hunted to the ends of the galaxy is a hard price to pay and there would be pain in knowing what both of them going into exile would do for the foreseeable future but they put their bets on Luke to do what “must be done”

[@KulJul]

Obi wan and Yoda probably hoped Luke would become ALL the Jedi and defeat Vader and the emperor. And I do think this is logical sadly since they probably wanted Luke to fight but also knew he wasn't strong enough and hoped for a miracle. Just another way the sequels expand/ruins the OT.

[@PixlPlayer]

I think they did want Luke to kill them. Yoda and obiwan are seen by the fan base as being wise and infallible, but they have flaws just like everyone else. After the events of episode 3, they are still stuck on their trauma and while they would never admit it, want revenge. They also truly believe that the only way to bring balance is to destroy the sith, killing them yourself. Luke’s character journey was seeing that the old ways were flawed, and becoming a true Jedi by winning through compassion and self sacrifice

[@kevinx7015]

“Always in motion is the future”. Yoda and Obi Wan figured that the best route to take is to encourage Luke to “face” Vader and trust in Luke that he would follow the force whatever that may entail. Following the force may have required Luke to kill Vader or it may not have in Yoda’s or Obi Wan’s POV. It was ultimately up to Luke to figure out not Yoda or Obi Wan, but they needed to encourage Luke that to kill may possibly be the will of the force. That POV may have also came to Luke’s thoughts when he was standing over Ben Solo; especially when he sensed that he could not save his nephew the way like he did with his father.

[@EGgaming9608]

It seems like ( and I know there’s writing inconsistencies that play a part) Yoda and Obi did not have the kind of faith and hope in Anakin being good again that Luke had. They saw no other way, but to destroy him and his Emperor. That’s kind of what I always thought watching the movies

[@vematsos]

So here’s my take on this. There have been many other times in the movies where they reference seeing the future as feelings. Yoda even says to Anakin as much in episode three. So maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan never really knew how Luke would bring down the sith, But they just knew through the force, through the feelings, that Luke would be the one to do it somehow. That is why they lead him on that path. This is also why they deceived him from the start in hiding the truth because maybe they thought if he knew it would steer him away from the future they felt through the force.

[@bencostello7435]

Given that Yoda didn't want to Train Luke because of his age and that he had to be convinced to do it by Obi-wan, it seems unlikely that Yoda at least had any expectation that Luke would ever be a Jedi, much less defeat Vader and Sideous. Maybe he had assumed Luke would be sent to him when he was still very young but not an infant needing care he couldn't give? But even then, if Yoda were so ready to give up hope in the salvation of the galaxy because Luke wasn't sent his way earlier, that would seem to imply he never really expected much from Luke to begin with.

[@pedrorenault5335]

Yes, I think there’s absolutely no question in this matter. People just try to invent one million loopholes to try to make the Jedi be this flawless and virtuous group, which they clearly are not. Lucas made the prequels to further develop the Jedi as this selfish and broken Order, so that Luke going against Obi Wan and Yoda’s advice be seen as even more heroic and important. However, many OT diehard fans who workship the OT Jedi (specially Yoda) as perfect refuse to see this and can’t comprehend that while Yoda and Kenobi where indeed good and wise with good intentions, they aren’t black and white, there’s some gray in there

[@merkingsavage6045]

Hey thor, I was wondering why you don't do vs battles and stuff like that. Also, how do you think a fight between Vader and Yoda would go at their best?

[@kostAmojan]

Good analysis. I think at the end of the day Yoda and Obi Wan were desperate, and Luke, with his Force potential, was the only one who could stop the Sith, and I think, at least at the start there was a degree of manipulation. A big example of this for me is in ANH. Obi Wan and Vader are having their Duel on the Death Star. Obi Wan is goading Vader, still holding his own, but falling back to the landing bay. We know from the prequels and a bit of extended Lore that Obi Wan is a highly skilled duellist. A year or so before ANH (in Rebels) he took out Darth Maul with very little effort, and he is said to be a master of the Form 3 Defensive style, 'Soresu'. So I think he COULD have held of Vader indefinitely. But now he holds Vader back long enough for the others to make it to the Falcon, then, waits until the perfect moment, has a quick look TO MAKE SURE LUKE IS WATCHING, gives a himself a little smile, and lets Vader "Kill" him. Obi Wan wants Luke to do what he couldn't do on Mustafar, and Kill Vader. He has already told Luke Vader "killed" his Father, so allowing himself to be "Killed" by Vader, was just to give Luke more personal motivation to seek revenge..

[@Paradox-es3bl]

I think there's enough wiggle room for "The Force works in mysterious ways" basically... but I honestly don't think Lucas had it planned out quite enough or wrote/had it written in an adequate way to claim they were saying "Yeah, don't kill the Sith if you can manage to turn them." I think they're absolutely saying, "Dew it."

[@shanef.8410]

Part of becoming a Jedi also is to face your fears and demons. To succeed Luke had to face Vader in order to complete his journey. This is hinted at in the cave

[@Hikaru3899]

I think we need to take into account the context. In empire yoda tells him only a fully trained jedi has a chance because Luke wants to go. In Return yoda tells Luke that to become a jedi he must face Vader. Both times the bar is being set at what yoda wants Luke to do and what Luke is either trying to do or not to do.

[@thestarkknightreturns]

Besides the obvious deep metaphorical reasoning behind Luke confronting his father to try and awaken what remained of the Light Side in him (as Luke, being his son, was indeed one of the few good things Vader ever created), Luke having to fight Vader could be understood in-lore as Luke's "Trial of Courage", one of the trials which, in Legends lore, all Jedi in the age of the Republic should face to become a Jedi Knight. Luke had his Trial of Flesh when Vader cut off his hand, his Trial of Skill when training with Yoda on Dagobah, and his Trial of Spirit when he entered the Dagobah cave.

[@jawstrock2215]

I think what we see in the 2 old jedi, are the remain of old dogma, and misconception about the sith. They see the Sith and the dark side as so destructive, that stepping into it traps you forever, thus Anakin was "no more" or unredeemable because of it.

[@kevinpeterson6468]

He needed to be tempted and not give in. But isn’t that the test for all of us. In life we go through different tests. How we handle those tests determines what kind of person we will be. Will life make us cold hard and bitter or will life make us warm humble and kind.

[@austinjohnsen4430]

tbf, Palpatine’s claims about there being a Jedi rebellion does give them a valid reason to hide for a while. That would almost certainly make them public enemy number 1.

[@redstratus97]

I’ve always viewed Luke’s story in the OT as a “Hail Mary” attempt in destroying the Sith. ObiWan and Yoda tried and failed and their hope was very low. Luke was the only hope. A very small hope but hope none the less. I feel that in Yoda and ObiWan’s minds that they knew Luke may get killed by doing this. But it was the last attempt they had. Or else the Sith will rule for the next 1000 years or so. Very slim odds that it would work. But it did!

[@adamvancleave9200]

They had their own hesitation but only saw one answer so they didn't want Luke to share that hesitation. Or something like that.

[@charemchavrutah]

As military generals, as well as Jedi masters who could, "see through you," I don't think they perceived Luke's fight with Vader and Palpatine in isolation. With all their experience in the Clone Wars, they have to be better tacticians than that. Their plan may well have been the same one that Luke himself alluded to when he told the Emperor, "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me." They didn't intend Luke to single-handedly achieve what both of them working together could not. I suspect they only intended Luke to endure long enough to be a diversion. That is to say, I believe their plan, at this point, was merely for Luke to hold the Sith Lords' attention long enough for the Rebel fleet to destroy the Death Star before either of them might evacuate. That explosion, and the vacuum of space that would follow, is what the masters intended to kill the Sith, not Luke directly.

[@katiekofemug]

I think just as Yoda & Obi-Wan did not fully comprehend or foresee what being the chosen one bringing balance to the force actually meant, both to the Jedi and the future; they did not know how Luke was destined to 'confront the chosen one,' only that he was and the risks involved - that is the potential for losing him to the dark side. Obi-Wan was frequently in conflict with Qui-Gon's curiosity and openness, falling back on tradition rather than opening himself to the path less travelled. I think his own fears about how tempting those paths were made him double down when Anakin questioned the ways of the Jedi. IMHO Yoda was more afraid of where those paths could lead than Anakin was of his dreams and visions. This was Yoda's great strength, his own fear, and also his great weakness - a balance he never acknowledged. Obi-Wan and Yoda were blind to the precise evolution of the prophecy and the resulting confrontation, possibly because 'the future is always in motion' but also, I think, because they were afraid of what looking to the future could lead to for a Jedi. That they hid from the former ways of prophets, the paths less travelled, and ways of dark side, etc, made them willfully blind to knowing not only their enemy but also themselves as well as the fullest expression of the force. Even as force ghosts their fear is tangible as Luke's determination to not only become a Jedi but also to save his friends. It's definitely groovy story telling, this ongoing conflict and Luke's thinking and feeling out of the Jedi box resolution.

[@HandofOmega]

Doctor Strange with the Time Stone told Ben and Yoda that that was the only way things could work out

[@deut3168]

Yoda and Obi-wan were acting on a theory that the dark side alters a person and once you turn to the dark side, you cannot turn back to the light. It's not just different abilities. The abilities are the result of an altered character. They saw Anakin and Vader as 2 different people. Therefore, their plan was for Luke to become a Jedi and eventually overthrow them both without knowing Vader was Anakin Skywalker. Yoda says that Luke was not ready for the burden when he rushed to face Vader. The knowledge that Vader is Luke's father creates a conflict within Luke that becomes a stumbling block of attachment that he now must overcome if he is going to be a Jedi. They were trying to prevent him from having that stumbling block so he could grow in power and become a knight or even a master uninhibited. A Jedi master Skywalker could defeat both Sith. However, Luke discovers the truth and now must cope with the attachment issue or, in traditional Jedi thinking, it will lead him to the dark side. He can only do this by confronting Vader again. It creates a paradox. Luke cannot face Vader until he is a Jedi, but not cannot become a Jedi unless he faces Vader. However, Luke sees evidence of a different theory. He senses Anakin within Vader. He cannot ignore this. Therefore, he doubts Yoda and Obi-Wan's teaching. Luke believes that Vader can be turned back. Therefore, they should have always told him about Anakin/Vader. While the dark side alters a person, the light side can also heal a person. He could grow into a Jedi master with the knowledge of Anakin and use this attachment to him as a catalyst to become strong enough to turn him back. However, events forced Luke to confront Vader and Palpatine while he was still early in his development. I thought that Lucas was trying to show that the prequel Jedi had a 1-dimmensional view of the Force. They followed dogma instead of the living Force. Qui-Gon was a foreshadowing of what the post-ROTJ Jedi would become. I thought that Luke confirmed it by helping Anakin back to the light and would run his Jedi academy differently. While prequel Jedi were anti-attachment and zero-redemption, Luke would promote the right attachments can be assets and nobody is truly gone to the dark side. Unfortunately, the sequels were a bit of a mixed bag of teachings.

[@Movie-comparisons]

Hey Thor did you notice the comment I left under your pinned comment about darth vader you posted today on your community page. Also I sent you a patreon message on February 28th. Have you seen that message?