Doctor Strange 2 - Is It Good or Nah?

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Schaff sees Doctor Strange the 2nd and there is a multiverse of madness involved
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[@RileyTasticPlays]

I also HATE the trope when someone is trying to learn how to use their powers, and then someone gives a short and sweet pep talk that basically says "Oh, yeah you can just use it" and then they INSTANTLY master their powers. If it was a gradual thing for Chavez, that might've been a little more acceptable but I genuinely physically rolled my eyes when Strange was like "Just use it lol" and she instantly is like a master, like what?

[@NathanButh]

She kindof did gradually learn how to use it though, right? She already had an understanding that it took strong emotions. We saw her use it once at the beginning to break part of the building to bonk the tentacle demon. We saw her punch and cause a tear when Wanda was pursuing her and she was trapped. While not completely her doing, we also saw her get used by Wanda to sort through different universes to find the right one. I agree that the trope can be meh, but I feel that there were moments that led up to her knowing she could punch to cause tears and even specific openings prior to Stranger's motivational speech.

[@unknownbystander8145]

@@NathanButh There is a difference between doing something by choice and doing something by impulse. With that said, I'm not sure if any of the things you listed would/should be counted as her learning how to control her powers.

[@aces_pretty_face2927]

YES! Thank you!! I have the exact same problem with that!! Like it make no fucking sense. I wish we had a better training part in there and honestly anything better with America bc she’s the blandest character and a great way to expose her character would have been thru training. Better then the power of friendship bullshit.

[@zkn8665]

ned

[@alfonsosorialara3288]

Like Spiderverse?

[@mahoganygamer8473]

Wanda as a villain is good, but I wish they built it up more in the film. She went from 0-100 so fast that the film just felt like it was missing about 30 minutes of build-up.

[@greenbrickbox3392]

Really wish they just made her the complete villain in WandaVision and not pull that Agatha bs just to make her an even bigger villain here.

[@seagull9000]

Totally agree, although I enjoy seeing her unhinged it would make a lot more sense if she had gone along with strange even just for a bit.

[@hanshotlast]

@@greenbrickbox3392 she was the complete villain in that show. Agatha didn’t do anything wrong if you watch it

[@greenbrickbox3392]

@@hanshotlast They literally had a whole song about the wrong things Agatha did including kill the dog lol

[@hanshotlast]

@@greenbrickbox3392 a fake dog

[@SourRobo8364]

When people say "It should have been rated R" they are not saying the content in the movie is R rated, they are saying that Sam should have been allowed to make the movie R rated so he doesn't have to hold back.

[@deanscordilis7280]

Broke: it should’ve been rated r because someone gets turned into string cheese Woke: it should’ve been rated r so Sam Raimi could go Full Evil Dead*

[@owyemen9367]

I mean evil dead isn't that scary or gory idk why people say it is, they probably watched the remake by accident

[@sova1235]

Ah a goblin slayer fan I see? I'm glad there are still fans of goblin slayer

[@SourRobo8364]

@@sova1235 As long as there are goblins, I'll be there to slay them.

[@itsreallybussin]

Didn’t one guys brain turn to mush I think it really should’ve been Rated R regardless

[@britmachine722]

I'll definitely give this film one thing, I was never expecting a Chekov's Corpse

[@MiraSubieGirl]

Spat out my terrible russian coffee reading this 😅

[@isaac10231]

That definitely took me by surprise

[@zackfp0]

Yeah that got me too that was unexpected

[@kristinross6890]

is that the same concept as chekov’s gun?

[@zackfp0]

@@kristinross6890 yeah it's just renamed

[@BSJINTHEHOUSE420]

When Morbius said to Doctor Strange “If you can’t handle me at my Morworst, then you don’t deserve me at my Morbest” everyone in the theater started crying. It was such a beautiful line.

[@smartass0124]

Meet the Robinsons shows the critiques of capitalism. Just people angry at other's success. And instead take responsibility they blame other's

[@InvestmentIdea]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXmkpoahjJJkm80 Finally it's here

[@emoji3266]

I would be crying because it’s so cheesy

[@emoji3266]

Day 12 of asking Schaffrillas to talk about Sid the Sloth in Encanto

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

😂🤣😆

[@tux75]

Man that scene with Morbius jumping out of the portal while saying his famous line, “It’s Morbin time” was a masterpiece. It really made me think why the political economical status of our world correlates with Morbius. Truly a masterpiece

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

I think this movie is the most movie ever that will make morbillion dollars but can we talk about the political and economic state of the world right now

[@hdanimatesorsomething]

The waht?????

[@holabuenosdias28030]

DONT SPOIL DR MORBIUS: IN THE MORBIUSVERSE OF MORBINING!!!!

[@hassanrao470]

Can’t wait for Morbius 2: More Bius

[@donjorvead2431]

"It's Morbin time" 😂💀

[@Ocean_Man205]

If you think this movie is an incoherent mess you are wrong, you aren't just wrong, are completely WONG. You see? When I review an MCU movie I have ONE criteria. How many minutes of WONG are in it. And this film has A LOT of Wong, making is an instant 8/10. Also that one scene where Wong says "Fortify your MINDS" is an instant meme and everyone should use it.

[@bwybwy5392]

i freaking love wong

[@zemorlockwarlock8791]

Also the scene transition where Wong fades into the middle of the screen out of the fire with zero warning was pretty good

[@EstoyPensando]

Wong is the best part of this movie for sure

[@peterparker9954]

Lol😂

[@whisky_cat]

Otherwise it would be poop movie 4/10

[@bobbybananas668]

I loved when Tom cruise came out as iron man and said “ mission is possible” hands down greatest line in the movie

[@hue_marlon727]

And then when Morbius said to wanda „its time to get morbed scarlet witch“ had me screaming

[@bobbybananas668]

@@hue_marlon727 that’s a great one to or when black bolt said “Wanda I am your father”

[@antusfirenova6426]

Maybe in an alternate universe they actually managed to have tom cruise in the movie

[@bobbybananas668]

@@antusfirenova6426 Tom cruise was in it. Just missed it.

[@ngwqwwe]

@@bobbybananas668 or when jar jar binks said I have the high ground to thanos

[@Kable10]

In the post credit scene of WandaVision we clearly see Wanda isn't over her children yet, they probably should have just made that the end of the episode though so people wouldn't miss it.

[@upg5147]

Yeah it seems a lot of people missed that scene which is crucial to this version of Wanda

[@deepEleven]

While that makes it better, but the transition is still a bit abrupt. They should have shown a little bit more of Wanda sucked by the darkness in the movie, given how brutal she becomes.

[@Strider1321]

@@deepEleven yeah, it definitely felt like we needed one more movie / show with Wanda showing how the Darkhold is making her more corrupt and selfish but not totally evil before she went all murderhobo in this one.

[@TheRibottoStudios]

he literally shows that clip of her with the Darkhold while explaining that the Darkhold is the copout for Wanda. I'm willing to bet he knows about that scene.

[@thewizard1]

Le post credit scene

[@FazeFysix]

The scene where Morbius appears at the end and says “Morbin Moment” and destroys Wanda was absolutely fantastic

[@Kern_ing]

That, was truly great cinema. Especially the connotations it will have for the rest of time.

[@emoji3266]

Screw Shrek 2 or the end credits scene of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. Now this… This is a work of art!

[@emoji3266]

Day 12 of asking Schaffrillas to talk about Sid the Sloth in Encanto

[@FazeFysix]

It was truly breathtaking and when Morbius said “See you in Morbhell” when Wanda dies, my theater erupted into cheering.

[@gameerman5105]

ben?

[@SuperWiiBros08]

I really wish they explored more universes, the most wasted potential part of the movie, still was fine enough which gives hopes that Sam Raimi will do more MCU films

[@DoritosAndMountainDew]

Hey

[@comicalcosmonaut959]

Not really a multiverse of madness, more like three universes of madness lol

[@sreejasasidharan3707]

I would love if he does a ghost rider movie

[@peterparker9954]

No.... Sam Raimi has been disappointing superhero fans since Spiderman 3

[@robberofjacks2072]

Yeah Multiverse of Madness? Wheres the Madness?

[@ThorDude]

I think the MCU's overall approach to it's movies has definitely been showing it's cracks recently. It's actually baffling to me that there isn't SOMEONE who at least tries to keep the story consistent and proof read in a constructive way to make sure everything actually makes sense. At this point, there's so much going on in the story right now, that things are becoming more and more incoherent and nonsensical with basically no payoffs to anything. This sort of came to a head with MoM. If these were self contained movies, it'd probably be fine, but because directors need to juggle everything, they start becoming creatively stifled and essentially forced to tie things into other MCU media, and having to have their write things that need to make sense (or at least try to) within the larger picture. With so many directors needing to tie into said larger picture with only clearly confusing, minimal direction as to how these movies are supposed to go.

[@antusfirenova6426]

I wish there were more movies like Shang Chi that are stand alone and work even if you're not familiar with the rest of MCU (but most improtantly genuinely good) Tho it doesn't really count since Shang Chi was made for a new audience, and for that reason it was forced to be that way

[@samc5934]

Antus Fire Nova 64 Shang chi and genuinely good don’t belong in the same sentence

[@AshVsEvilFred]

@@antusfirenova6426 shang chi was the quintessential forgettable marvel movie and simi liu being a good actor doesn’t change that same as the entire eternals cast being ehh actors and the movie itself being horrible

[@positivetakes5592]

Never heard of Kevin Feige, huh? And actually there's an entire shadowy Illuminati-esque board of writers who is charge of keeping the universe consistent. What really killed this movie is the pandemic which everyone miraculously forgot about in the throes of all their bitching. I believe this, Falcon and Winter Soldier, Wandavision, and Loki were all shuffled in terms of when they were meant to be released (just track when and how Julia Louis-Dreyfuss shows up). In fact at one point Wandavision wasn't meant to be the villain at all. So no, it's not because Marvel can't keep things consistent but rather various forces out of their control forced them to make multiple last minute pivots

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

@@positivetakes5592 Are you saying the pandemic made them release these movies and shows *sooner*? Do you have any evidence for that?

[@Alice-hj2bv]

I feel like no one is talking about how Wanda wasn’t looking for Vision in the multiverse only her kids - surely there are universes where the four of them are a family together and that’s what she would want rather than only looking for the kids

[@LyleVSXyle]

Or her brother for that matter

[@KodasGarden]

Fair point but also the whole of Wandavision was that she wanted to be with Vision, so another story about her chasing Vision probably would have felt stale. Besides, this story fits more in line with the comics where Wanda does go crazy and tries to be with her kids in other universes.

[@g.d.graham2446]

Indeed

[@exynth1a215]

universe with 2 wandas

[@tb124.gaming]

She already tried to be with Vision, but when Visin realised that Wanda is doing bad things only to be with him, he didn’t want to be a part of it… the dude just wanted to stay dead lol

[@DNLestrade]

At least in my point of view, the darkhold wasn't "controlling her" but rather it "tempted her". The major proof of this being that destroying it didn't make her snap back but rather want the power again. So I don't really agree to the people saying the Darkhold is a dumb plot device to justify her fall into darkness, because she fell into darkness on her own, the darkhold was just the way she did. Edit: Thanks for the likes, and no, im not arguing in the replies.

[@echo6093]

I have definitely considered this theory before and I will state that I'm not sure of my thoughts on the matter yet. The thing with the Darkhold is that it's dark, evil magic that was created by Chton, an evil elder god. Chton is one of the strongest beings in the Marvel Universe. It stands to reason that anything he made would have maddening effects. If you read the comic version of what he does and what the Darkhold is, it becomes quite clear what his intentions are. I won't spoil, though. So, I do think the Darkhold corrupted her (not like fully controlled, because that depends on the user and how much they perused. You can see Strange used a taboo spell even for their world, and it didn't turn him evil. Too bad for the eye, though.) AND I think Wanda becoming one with the Scarlet Witch has made her that much more likely to be tempted by dark artifacts. I also think that Wanda was very much aware of what was happening, but had a hard time resisting the Scarlet Witch and her own pain. It's a trifecta of Wanda's suffering, The Scarlet Witch and the Darkhold. It's quite complicated just like Wandavision was, with Wanda knowing full well what she was doing but that she couldn't stop herself from abusing her powers. What I like in all of this is that it's still consequences of her own choices. Like Agatha said, Wanda made a mistake by letting in the Scarlet Witch. The Scarlet Witch is prophesied to destroy or rule the world. She is directly linked to Chton and the Darkhold. Her magic related to Chton. Everything, really. I think the movie could have made this a lot clearer; I do believe they shafted a lot of the lore and process of Wanda turning for the sake of the next movies/shows. Wandavision was good because it showed how Wanda dealt with her problems as her mental worsened. And while I do think Wanda's performance of her grief in the recent movie is great, it misses that process of how she got there. And no, I don't think Wanda miraculously recovered after the events of Wandavision. She was still emotionally sensitive and I think that definitely played a role in succumbing to Chton's dark magic shenanigans.

[@Allen-qs2xr]

Sure because that makes her character soooooo much more interesting

[@Dervis128]

I agree with this interpretation based on how Agatha handled having the Darkhold for a few hundred years. She wasn't necessarily evil like Wanda was. She didn't want Wanda's power for the sake of having power...she wanted to take Wanda's power because she knew Wanda wouldn't be able to control it. Sure, Agatha was antagonistic...but not evil per se. I like to imagine that in the other universe, Wanda was able to continue living with Billy and Tommy because she entrusted the Darkhold to Agatha, and let her mentor her in the ways of magic.

[@DNLestrade]

@@Dervis128 That sounds like an interesting theory. And yeah, as much as the show insisted she was the villian, I can't see agatha as more than just a neutral antihero.

[@NicoleMay316]

THIS ^

[@Chronically_Bored]

If im being honest, wanda's extreme reckless selfishness without thought was something i was kind of looking forward to. If done right, i thought it could've been a great way to show she's gone actually insane and lost her head after all the things thats happened to her, to the point she's lost the ability to have empathy, even for people she cared for. Even if her kids will suffer knowing she's an imposter, even if old friends and allies who helped her get hurt in the process, she's lost the ability to _care._ she _knows,_ she's not dumb, she just doesnt _care._ she's basically saying "when is it my turn to get what i want? Do you see what i have to do to get _my_ happy ending? Can't you see? Why haven't any of you helped me?" In a weird way of begging for help. After all, none of her friends came for her in wandavision, or helped her through her grief for vision, they couldve made this her moment where she gives up, sets her up fully as a villain who was a hero and suffered for it, and instead of going through all that pain and heartbreak, resorts to a single minded determination for her own happiness instead. Then the movie came out and blew it lmao

[@felipehernandez8884]

I feel the easy fix to the script is just make Wanda come from another reality where she didn't have regret for what she did and went more insane, and have doctor strange team up with our Wanda to stop evil Wanda, would've given Wanda a better arc and would've been fun to see a magic Avengers team up.

[@jordansharpe1653]

No it wouldn't, since this is doctor strange movie. How would doctor strange's arc even happen if we would focus on an alternate Wanda ?

[@skeletonwar4445]

@@jordansharpe1653 But this wasn't a Dr. Strange movie lol. It was a Wanda movie. Dr. Strange just happened to have some screentime in it and they accidentally put his name on the title instead.

[@jordansharpe1653]

@@skeletonwar4445 if you're going to make a joke, at least make it worth while to read 😐

[@skeletonwar4445]

@@jordansharpe1653 I wasn't making a joke, just a statement. Sorry to hear that you can't differentiate between the two. Life must be hard for you.

[@jordansharpe1653]

@Ananké Fatal the movie shouldn't even need to show a scene like that. Using basic common sense is enough.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Sam Raimi did a great job once again for making Wanda looked so terrifying in this movie. The genre shift from superhero action to horror is very on point since the last time Dr. Octavius had killed everyone at the hospital.

[@Ghostface1998]

Wanda was definitely an intimidating presence in this movie and Sam Raimi pulled all the horror elements perfectly

[@AxxLAfriku]

SCHOOL! The answer is I don't go! Why go? I am famous. I am famous. I have more fans than fingers multiplied with toes multiplied with teeth multiplied with ears. I am famous. I am famous. SCHOOL? No, thanks. KZbin FAME? Yes. Good day, dear fri

[@olleselin]

Pizza time

[@pizzario4986]

@@AxxLAfriku Remember kids, if you don’t go to school, you’ll end up like Axxl. Stay in school kids!

[@martimsalvador9186]

@@AxxLAfriku ayo its axxl i havent seen ur spam messages in years, how ya doing?

[@martacastillo6272]

I would rate this movie as very enjoyable, not a masterpiece, but definitely fun with the horror themes and cinematography choices

[@w3ghe711]

It is at the very least, one of the most interesting movies in the mcu

[@emoji3266]

It’s good if you only want to watch it for just one viewing.

[@emoji3266]

Day 12 of asking Schaffrillas to talk about Sid the Sloth in Encanto

[@elavedelosaugurios704]

I completly agree with you

[@matthewvink4065]

thats really cool Im genuinely glad people are enjoying this movie! really wish I could relate :/

[@danklord4315]

My problem if that America is a legit mcguffen, especially when she randomly punch the glass cage. Wanda is great to see in action and decent motives. Dr strange is pretty great throughout the entire movie. There’s a lot of scenes that made me sigh and feel dumbfounded.

[@jjOnceAgain]

America is a "look at us, being progressive. We built an Important Latina Character with a LGBTTQ pin and the last name of a Socialist Dictator, ooooh and she also has 2 moms! And her power is imigration!" Honestly, the way they do it is kind of gross, and it seems more like an over the top parody. She could've been a magic app for Disney +, and would've been just as relevant to the storh

[@reashark3987]

@@jjOnceAgain could you look at a character anymore cynically than that?

[@sorry4710]

@@jjOnceAgain I think the reason why she's coming off that way is because she's basically just an empty shell of her comic book self. They couldn't show her being a lesbian, cuz money, they lightwashed her, and tho I completely get that for plot reasons she's not as confident as her comic book counterpart, but they let so LITTLE of her actual personality shine through, I was genuinly so heartbroken, America is one of my favourite marvel characters, and the writers really didn't do her justice

[@jordansharpe1653]

That's not a mcguffin, that would be a Mary sue which she isn't.

[@SirQuadrat]

@@jordansharpe1653 She actually is a McGuffin, because in the movie she gets basically no characterization and acts as just a tool to go from place A to place B. Her power is the only reason for her to be in that movie

[@phor8567]

I would actually disagree with the notion that Wanda recognized the error of her ways by the end of Wandavision. I don’t think Wanda every really had a chance to truly understand the extent of the horrors she committed in Westview (mostly because of the show’s poor writing in the later episodes) and this is most present in the conversation she has with Monica at the end of the show. The machinations of this sequence are trying to make us feel sympathy for Wanda because she had to sacrifice her family, despite the fact that she was never entitled to that family in the first place and in keeping her family alive, she mind-controlled and enslaved hundreds of people so they could provide free labor for her weird sitcom Universe. And at the end of the show she never even reckons with her actions, she just dissolves the hex and then flies away. So I personally believe that her characterization in MoM while clunky, was a much more natural evolution of her character from Wandavision than say a version of Wanda where she was a hero again.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Oh, pls, Tony gave a teenager army of drones and yet Wandavision acknowledging how screwed Wanda's life is bad writting?

[@phor8567]

@@mikhaelgribkov4117 I never said that. What I said was trying to frame Wanda as a heroine in the latter half of the show was bad writing because all of her actions up to that point had implied otherwise. Just because her life is screwed up doesn’t make any of the things she did to the people of Westview any more acceptable or excusable.

[@nicovelardita8619]

if you see the facts as they are, yeah, you're right but we can't ignore the framing. In WV the framing clearly implied she learned something positive from the experience. Sure it wasn't a redemption arc, but the whole "they don't know what you've sacrificed" with Monica pointed to a heroic arc or at least the start of one. Then at the start of MoM she goes full multiversal gigavillain. If you see the movie and WV back to back as I did it feels so jarring you would think you missed a second season. It is the difference between the series saying to us "This character learned something but has a lot to work" and then the movie saying "This character didn't learned anything at all and in fact just got worse"

[@phor8567]

@@nicovelardita8619 this is fair, I guess it is more of a continuity issue, but I do just want to highlight how this problem could’ve been avoided had WV’s writing just been more competent

[@TheLewistownTrainspotter8102]

@@phor8567 Except that's NOT how they framed Wanda. They made clear that what Wanda did was wrong, and she knew it was wrong too.

[@jarrettwhitlow8700]

I didn’t have any problem with wanda’s State in this movie because in the comics she is frequently depicted as being completely nuts and unstable and unreasonable. My problem was that they did not devote enough time to deciding where she was on that scale. Is she going crazy? Is she just really determined? Is she being corrupted by the Darkhold? There was not a single answer to that which I feel that should’ve been.

[@cross985]

i feel like she is in the middle, because she was corrupted/tempted by the darkhold, she goes a little bit insane and determined to realized that insane desire of hers.

[@yasminemahmood8539]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKqrgo2lmbaooJo Finally it’s here.

[@Bluestroke_]

I mean, mcu wanda is not the same wanda as in the comics, and for the films she really needed more development to make her going nuts make sense

[@comicalcosmonaut959]

Yea I felt like so far throughout the MCU, her going nuts was understandable but then took a big nose dive in coherency and logic with this movie

[@peterparker9954]

This reminded me of Dany going nuts in just 1 episode of got season 8

[@galaxypl7756]

Man that scene when Doctor Strange says "It's about to get strange" and proceedes to strangle like 10 people was really something

[@rileydavidson180]

You mean strangele, right?

[@vario6492]

@@rileydavidson180 Doctor Strangle

[@ctldoesstuff7375]

Not as good as, i dont wanna spoil it but "morbin time" by the movie that sold a morbillion tickets

[@Dem0nality]

As someone who desperately wanted a Wanda solo movie because she's always been one of my favorites, this FELT like her movie. Not watching Wandavision beforehand definitely hindered my understanding, however, her descent into madness and her desperate craze for her children made sense. She's lost everything, her powers have turned her into someone to be feared by the public instead of heralded like Iron Man. Having her children gave her a glimmer of hope for a life she so desperately craves. Its a glimpse of the person she delusionally thinks she could be. With everything she went through, I felt her arc was completely justified and a logical villain turn for her character. The Dark Hold also wasn't her cause for becoming evil, it was more so a tool to fuel her already increasing madness. It's like giving a psycopath a gun. Yes, it makes them far more dangerous and capable, but its not THE reason they make the choices they do.

[@rinxmacaroni2085]

even without the darkhold, she is still that monster. youre right.

[@skeletonwar4445]

Yeah, this was a Wanda movie 100%. Seeing how I give absolutely zero shits about Wanda and went to see a Dr. Strange movie... I fucking hated it.

[@highdefinition450]

So you wanted a solo Wanda movie but didn't even watch her show??

[@Dem0nality]

@@highdefinition450 as of now I have, at the time I didnt have money for disney+ (between jobs. Penny pinching) As soon as I got it wandavision was my first watch

[@silashurd3597]

Thank you

[@allisonm5831]

I feel like they destroyed Wanda’s character with this movie. I was okay with her being a villain but she completely lost all of the empathy she had in the previous movies. She should care about other Wanda losing her kids because she knows exactly what it feels like and showed basic empathy to her victims in Westview. She should have become the villain over time and been desperately looking for a way to get her kids without hurting anyone because she doesn’t want to be the villain everyone telling her she is. I think it would have made her much more compelling while this movie basically treats her like the boogeyman, something in the shadows that is only to be feared.

[@totallynotaferret]

Sympathy, NOT empathy

[@jordansharpe1653]

Dude it's clearly implied that Wanda was searching for ways to get her children and when she used the evil book, the book corrupted her unwavering conviction to get her kids. Why you acting like she wasn't having a victim mentality the whole entire movie. She knowingly crossed dimensions knowing she could end whole universes, so why would she care about the mom .

[@skeletonwar4445]

@@jordansharpe1653 "book make person evil ooga booga" is not a compelling reason for a supervillain lmao

[@jordansharpe1653]

@@skeletonwar4445 it's crazy how you lack any observations skills to piece together why Wanda would risk universes to get her kids.

[@jordansharpe1653]

@@skeletonwar4445 Wanda loosing vision after her own brother's death, was her breaking point. Wanda was feeling broken and empty until see started having dreams of her kids . She knew that dreams are real, it's just in a different universe .

[@jacktoma21]

I feel like Wanda’s motivation for wanting her kids back was solid, she just went too evil too soon, and yea the dark hold corrupting her is a lame excuse, but I just had such a fun time with her a villain and liked her arch within this movie that I can look past it. Also like the touch of making her resembling Agatha with the black fingers.

[@FoxyGuyHere]

I think the fact that she is the Scarlet Witch makes it less lame. Chton made the book AND made her the Scarlet Witch. The real villain is Chton who wanted Excatly this to happen to Wanda. But in the end Wanda came to her senses and Chton won't be happy.

[@ekremslayer3389]

Ngl I thought that because Wanda was the scarlet witch the Darkhold wouldn't corrupt her, considering it seems as if it was made for the scarlet witch and even had bodyguards waiting for her. But nah she just got corrupted

[@alanblanco6222]

How is the dark hold corrupting her a lame excuse? The entire point of the book is to corrupt her and turn her into the Scarlet Witch so that she can dominates over the entire universe. Plus we've seen how it corrupts anyone that uses it (Agatha and Dr Strange)

[@CeCeBookworm07]

@@alanblanco6222 we never got to SEE it corrupting her. Sure we get the final scene in WandaVision, but that was a single scene. If it was a gradual thing through out the movie it would have been more understandable.

[@ekremslayer3389]

@@alanblanco6222 the darkhold is wayyy strong. In the agents of shield tv show it even corrupted a robot and gave it sentience which ended in the usual way. But I think its less of a lame excuse but more kind of a cop out

[@xristosxatziantonis9829]

I love how the smartest man alive went on to confront a huge threat to the multiverse without any equipment or weapons whatsoever and also after seeing there most physically strongest member die like he was nothing he thought it be a good idea to hit wanda with the slowest punch possible

[@ZXaria]

His Wanda is still Civil War level and he thought he could speed blitz her.

[@alcerdemon9768]

That scene was really bs Imagine bringing in one of the most wanted characters on the mcu just to kill him inmediately

[@mikemorro140]

@@alcerdemon9768 I mean it's not like we're never going to see him again they are still making a Fantastic Four movie

[@roxanne_]

@@alcerdemon9768 they did them so dirty 😭 it honestly wasn’t a fair fight but then again the movie wasn’t about them, it was more about Wanda.

[@thepsychobear2362]

Reed's punches are legitimately op. Have you ever played Marvel Ultimate Alliance?

[@gaelanwhite8842]

I feel like the idea of this movie could actually work as a video game. I mean, imagine it working like a Persona 5-style game where you travel through different worlds with Strange and America having to run away from the ever present Scarlet Witch as she and her monsters hunt them down? Hell, you could make entire an segment of the game based on playing Zombie Strange as he learns to utilize the spirits around him! Plus, the scares could become even more intense with the everlooming threat of Scarlet Witch in a way almost like the Alien from Alien: Isolation! I saw the movie this weekend with my dad, and I liked it enough. I felt that seeing Scarlet Witch take on a more sinister role felt really interesting and fun to watch, though I will say that I wish she got to go more into the horror element with how many types of scares and monsters she could have pulled out.

[@OniLinkBrazil1993]

Actually, it would work better as Persona 2 style game assuming the direction Sam Reimi was going for in this movie.

[@Zerorenren4761]

It would work more like something closer to a mix between Alien Isolation, Majora's Mask(instead of the moon you would have a certain time before Wanda fucks everything or finds you) and Astral Chain ( gameplay ) A Persona styled game would need a more explored party, arcs and shit A MoM game would work better as some kind of "we need to solve everything fast before Wanda catches us" So a story like Astral Chain where you go to certain places and explore some places that aren't open and need to solve a main quest in the process would work better, but with some kind of time counter or a "Wanda is near gauge" You would need to make shit fast as you can before she reaches you, and if she does you would need to travel to another universe to escape her and return later or atempt defeating her(which would not work) Hack n slash formula works good for it because it's literally a 8 hours story lenght but high gameplay value and fast pacing America Chaves would be some kind of assistent that you would be able to switch in battle and be a fast travel

[@studyguy.7660]

I feel like they forgot about the Mordo in our universe in the movie. We see him at the end of Dr strange with a vendetta against sorcerers. We only hear about him from Strange and he's like "Oh yeah he's a villain" with no real development to his character. I don't think it was a good idea to show a different Mordo from the other universe without seeing our Mordo again first. This film was a bit of a mess but overall I liked it. I thought that it was gonna be the next Infinity War but it turned out to be more of a Black Widow. Ok but not great. Also 'America' is the dumbest name for a main character.

[@amalgamousgoat6217]

I'm not super up on America Chavez in the comics, but I never really questioned the name. Went to school with a girl named America, kinda just assumed it was a similar immigrant parents situation for the character.

[@bluezoomc]

I heard there was a cut scene of Wanda killing 616 Mordo at the beginning of the movie, so that’s likely why he wasn’t mentioned/didn’t appear Much harder to write a character back in that take them out

[@neenim4708]

i mean, that's her name in the comics. also, i don't think it's uncommon for latin american immigrants to name their children that. america ferrera is an american actress with honduran parents

[@ccecereal]

dimensional beings amirite

[@jordansharpe1653]

Mordo is going to be working with dormamu or something, that's the reason why he wasn't in the movie.

[@i.d.9754]

My favorite moment in this film had to be Zombie Strange rising from the grave and controlling the souls of the damned. That was metal as hell

[@lckaboom6810]

Same here. Utterly insane in the best way possible.

[@mikemorro140]

yeah that scene was great

[@meris8486]

yeah that was great I just wish it was in a better film, one where Sam Raimi had full control and an R rating

[@mamode242]

The think i liked the most about it was that it was there since the start if the movie and when they had him rise you almost forgot he was even there, a great ceckov's gun

[@gyro5anchez]

That was one of the best parts of the movie

[@22dallas1]

The fight scene with America and Wanda going through universes is what I thought was gonna happen. Especially with America learning how to control the multiverse power, I thought she’d bring Wanda to a bunch of universes to fight. My only guess is that they’re saving more of the “multiverse madness” for future movies, which is honestly fine, I just wish they named the movie something different then.

[@ButterscotchPenguin]

watch everything everywhere all at once

[@funkuro]

@@ButterscotchPenguin I’m going to. It looks so sick.

[@ButterscotchPenguin]

@@funkuro Literally is my favorite movie of all time now and one of my favorite studios A24 (the lighthouse, hereditary,etc) was. apart in making it

[@Ciobrando19.]

​@@ButterscotchPenguin now that's a movie I can honestly say is better than whatever this is but I guess that's taboo to say idk😔

[@yasminemahmood8539]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKqrgo2lmbaooJo Finally it’s here.

[@narufan987]

It was pretty clear to me that you weren't really supposed to care about the Illuminati, their role on the story was to help Strange understand how reckless and dangerous he can be (so much so that his own teammates had to kill him). The fact that they're cameos doesn't mean that they *have* to be hugely important to the main arcs, their role in the movie is completely different to the roles the characters in NWH had

[@potatogamerz3421]

Yeh this is one of my least fav Schaff vids. His points just arnt true

[@owo4288]

They don't have to dumb down all of them to prove a point. I prefer the Illuminati don't debut in this film if the only way they are in is to be fodder.

[@potatogamerz3421]

@@owo4288 But the entire point of their inclusion was to show how strong Scarlet Witch was. They were only meant to be fodder. Would it have made any difference if they were randoms we had never seen before? I think so, the fact we know these characters and what they’re capable of already personally made me realise how strong she was that she could just wave her hand and defeat them.

[@owo4288]

@@potatogamerz3421 Strange fight Scarlet Witch the first time, lose and barely escape is a better way to show how powerful she is than present Reed Richard as the smartest man alive only to reveal the power of Black Bolt immidiately causing them to lose. Plus WandaVision already show how powerful she is.

[@potatogamerz3421]

Just bc they say he is the smartest man alive doesn’t mean he is. A common character trait for the smartest man alive would to be arrogant as well

[@ianncarloalvim]

Also, the Darkhold was shown in "What if.. ?" And we saw Strange being dominated by the book via the will of saving Christine. The same could happened to Wanda, as we also saw her with the book at the end of WandaVision

[@lassehoffmann625]

The book also appears in agents of shield and runaways

[@asimpletaco4665]

I love the fact that everyone loves the casting of John Krasinski as mr Fantastic, its super hilarious and awesome that everyone agrees he’s perfect for that role

[@m3rl707]

When Mr. Fatastic came on screen someone yelled out "JIM!"😂

[@InvestmentIdea]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXmkpoahjJJkm80 Finally it's here

[@Subpar1O1]

"I can't believe Jim from The Office™ is dead!" was the one thing running through my head for the whole finale and I both love and hate that

[@ohnobro1424]

Same

[@ramonandrajo6348]

And the movie still sucks, so?

[@joemiller5119]

Wanda in this movie was basically what Randall was like in Monsters Inc. Both hunt and try to kill a kid to get what they want and then later get their asses kicked by them.

[@mini3mayhem]

The best way I can describe how the writing felt, at least to me, was it was very much so episodic. In that this felt like an episode midway through a tv show and the episodes are just several hours long. I half-way expected someone to pop up at the end and say "Next time in Marvel Universe, Dr. Strange goes into space and fights something!" It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it definitely doesn't really feel like its it's own fully-formed story and just kinda picks up where we were last movie. It's hard to describe, but there's a very real difference between something being a sequel, something being the second part of a two-parter, or the next episode in a series. This felt more like the latter than the other two in that I couldn't really just bring this to someone who had never watched Marvel before and say "try to figure out what's happening and who these people are." With sequels, you usually want to balance between two things: make the returning fans happy in that you aren't pandering too much to people who are new to it and try not to leave the new people quite so far in the dust. This does not do that at all and since there are so many movies to this overall storyline, I don't think it can ever count really as a sequel; the entire thing might as well be called a movie series at this point.

[@marcoa6319]

I’ve already see the MCU as a serialized episodes to watch rather than an actual movie series. And for me, that’s fine. MCU is different from other movie franchises since it focuses on various different protagonists in a shared universe. I don’t see the Iron Man and Thor films as separate series. They’re part of the same franchise that tends to switch perspectives. Once you let go of seeing the MCU has separate franchises with crossovers and view as a single movie episodic series, it’s fine. I’ll admit that investment in the story and characters have basically become mandatory at this point. I understand that the general audience might not care about that which leads to criticism. But to say that the franchise is becoming bad is something I disagree with.

[@eddie-roo]

Multiverse of Madness could have been such a great series. We could have seen Wanda's corruption arc, we could've seen other universes, we could've actually see America grow and learn to control her powers.

[@jacobschnabl6353]

Can you imagine what this movie would be like if Sam Raimi got complete control over the script and rating?

[@cesarwitha_t]

The movie wasn't originally his, that's why it feels the way it does.

[@ethangamino4740]

give him total control of Dr Strange 3 and its a top 3 MCU movie

[@hallohallo6593]

The box office would explode.

[@FFKonoko]

@@cesarwitha_t I recognized it was him mid way through the movie from the cinematography choices. So I dunno about that

[@DaAuraWolf]

We need a Raimi Cut for Disney+ like yesterday! 😂😂😂 Though I’m definitely curious about if Deadpool 3 gets creative freedom because it’s on brand to the two other Deadpool movies or not to compare that to this film as “No Creative Freedom since you’re brand is for the kiddos like the rest of these films”. Either way, still laughing my ass off at the whole upset about what we got shouldn’t have been PG-13 (not the side that wanted an R version & freedom but the average people who don’t read the ratings) and this is pretty tame all things considering. Hopefully we get Midnight Sons at some point as well as an adaptation of Damnation since that one is really good plus we get Mephisto running Las Vegas.

[@jaydimmick8554]

My favourite part is when Morbius showed up and Morbed everyone in the room

[@JamieSwitzer]

Enough.

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@RainbowDemon]

I feel like a lot of people who had a problem with wanda are not thinking about it from the perspective of, she made a decision, and then the multiverse taunted her about it. Imagine having a family and then deciding for the greater good to give it up, and then everytime you close your eyes you are reminded of it, over and over and over every time you sleep. Doesnt matter how many stages of grief you go through or how sane you were, that will cause you to lose your mind.

[@LegitEliminator]

7:01 - I think you missed the point of both Wandavision and this film with Wanda's motivation. Post credit scene of WandaVision shows that Wanda IS NOT over her kids and is trying as much as she can to get to them. I just got done watching the movie and I was actually frightening of what the movie doesnt show between events of post credit scene from WV and DS2. Wanda felt entitled to have her kids with her just as Doctor Strange probably felt about Christen. Wanda's motivations were definitely selfish but, that's point. She thinks that she's no different than Strange giving up Time Stone to Thanos - which let to Thanos succeeding in his goals to wipe out half the universe.

[@manbat4582]

That's nothing wrong with the direction honestly, it just feels too sudden. I mean, Wandavision ended with her kinda regretting what she did, and now suddenly the Darkhold exist, and she knows about the multiverse. There's not enough build up to make Wanda's motivation feel legit

[@LegitEliminator]

@@manbat4582 i can agree to point, there’s not enough build up. Although, post credit scene still shows that’s she probably ticking time bomb

[@princeboyd3795]

@@LegitEliminator Honestly i just hated the way it sort of robbed us of seeing a positive bow wrapped around Wanda's story with her finally getting peace and accepting her loss but instead thanks to wandavision it seems like the whole arc was null and void because she became even more crazy and worse the change was super sudden so it feels shallow. The seeds were definitely planted in wandavision but if anything i think its the fault of both media's writing.

[@wayothefro3249]

@@LegitEliminator Sure, the post-credit scene in WandaVision showed us that she may break bad and blow up but the problem is this movie starts off with her already having gone off. By the end of WandaVision, she had accepted that what she did was wrong and it very much led us to believe that she had more or less accepted her grief. You can't jump from that to this movie where she is literally butchering people left and right, even when you take the WandaVision post-credit scene into consideration. It's a jarring shift that just doesn't work and chalking it up to the dark hold influencing her is just lazy writing especially when the resolution to her story in Multiverse of Madness is basically the same as it was in WandaVision. We needed some sort of build-up to her going bad rather than starting her that way from the jump. Altogether, her arc between WandaVision and MoM just reeks of poor planning on the part of Marvel.

[@CHRL-to2gx]

Is English you first language?

[@SWDude2710]

I personally loved how dark, twisted, and inventive the film was with it's story and visuals! I do understand how so many people are upset by certain things about the film, but again, we all see things so differently! About Wanda, I thought, in terms of her power level, she was done really well, but I can understand why you were disappointed with her character story.

[@brianrussell2441]

Also if they are mad at certain characters being killed off those are characters of one universe in an entire multiverse, also I liked the fact that they acknowledge other characters in the franchise’s history

[@saberbomber24]

yeah I felt a little cheated by her story because it sort of felt like a compelte 180 of WandaVision, but that can easily be explained by the corruption that comes with using the Darkhold. Regardless, she was amazing in this one!

[@antmck99]

@@saberbomber24 if you know about the House of M storyline, youll understand. Its not over with Wanda yet

[@damn6039]

Inventive with story? Is this the first time you're watching a marvel, he k any movie?

[@FFKonoko]

@@damn6039 yeah, plenty of movies wouldn't have pulled off the zombie strange thing.

[@theultimaterousseauman5648]

When morbius said to future morbius, “Plates helps” this was such an impactful line. Everyone including the disabled man stood up and clapped. This really shows the economic and social state of the world right now. The people next to me even cried. The president even cried while just in the presence of the scene. Truly impactful.

[@murdcrockdolphin]

I wish I could’ve been there to experience such a phenomenal and glorious moment!

[@ingrao9538]

When dr strange asked Wanda what about the other Wanda and she just stared at him I thought she was gonna kill the other one not her having a smooth brain moment. I thought it implied how much she was willing to do in able to be with her kids; to the point, she was willing to kill the other wanda/take them away from the other Wanda and while that logically is stupid I liked it in the plot.

[@stephenohalloran3378]

Wanda is a good villian but I really wanted to just see the strange variants build up and not die after 1 scene, they really tricked me thinking there were zombies too ):

[@Okabiz_]

You perfectly described what I felt towards the books being some stupid plot device. Wanda has sufficient backstory to become unhinged/evil but it feels like the writers didn't want to deal with deep themes and resorted to justifying Wanda's actions poorly through ~LE EVIL ANTIQUE ARTIFACT~

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

I feel like they didn’t know how to defeat Wanda either, so that way they just had her have a small moment with the other Wanda and the kids, despite the fact that Scarlet Witch almost murdering an innocent motherly version of herself in front of those kids, and almost murdered another child multiple times. I guess it makes sense tho since she’s extremely attached to her kids, but was that really enough to snap her out of the darkhold, after all those murders and whatnot, that’s all it took? Kinda reminds me of Darth Vader in Star Wars. Also what would happen if Wanda just decided to murder the other Wanda and kidnap her kids, and kill America, because I feel like she honestly could have done that if this movie wasn’t trying to make her more sympathetic at the last moment. Like Wanda really could have won in this movie. That was an extremely risky idea on America’s part.

[@ohnobro1424]

Tbf though, that’s basically the book’s whole thing is that it corrupts people. It might be lazy but at least it still makes sense.

[@callumrangan1061]

I thought it was more that the book was feeding off her feelings and intensifying it’s grasp. Maybe it’s a little cliche to have an artifact corrupt her, but I think it was her backstory and her desire that made her do this and the book was the final nail in the coffin

[@alwaysabiggafish3305]

A story about wizards and witches uses demonic spellbooks as a plot device?! No shit!! Mcguffins =/= bad plot devices.

[@Okabiz_]

@@alwaysabiggafish3305 Thank god the plot device fits the themes of the story, how does this contradict the fact that this instance is lame and also totally unnecessary, have you even seen the movie to begin with? They make a big show of absolutely needing the book of the vishanti to defeat the evil, but the evil book itself is destroyed halfway into the story anyway, guess it wasn't that hard? Moments like this (because there are other ones, like when strange retrieves the book of the vishanti and doesn't fucking use it even though it can DEFLECT MAGIC and Wanda was RIGHT THERE) just show that the inclusion of the books isn't well thought out, its a BAD plot device

[@TheFiki14]

I genuinely thought the story was going to be bigger than it was: I thought the illuminati could’ve been a multiverse authority, and their condemnation of Strange would’ve been from experiences with multiple versions of him. I thought they were really going to lean into the consequences of Strange’s spell in NWH. They definitely could’ve made Wanda as an antagonist work if they showed the internal struggle with the dark hold. I wish they played more into the tragedy being sucked into a different universe suddenly. What America had to go through while growing up.

[@hogiepogie4]

All good points!

[@cherie..cherry]

Same! The ending of NWH made me think this would be the consequences of that and Wanda vision. But I saw another review that said this was originally supposed to come out before NWH. So that makes sense why they wouldn’t mention anything about Peter. But regardless it was a little disappointing

[@stevenbobbybills]

@@cherie..cherry Strange actually references the events of No Way Home whilst in the café with Wong and Chavez when asked about his experience with the multiverse by the latter.

[@FartCity-WorldDomination]

I guess you could say this movie was Madness😎

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

@@cherie..cherry In No Way Home, Strange stated that he made the spell to make people forget that Peter is Spider-Man, and that included himself. In Multiverse of Madness, at least Strange did mentioned Parker which it implied that he's an exception to the spell and decided to keep his memory.

[@slishslash9202]

I loved the scene where Morbius dreamwalks his other selves into one place and says "Morbformers, roll out." Truly the greatest scene in cinema.

[@sapphirehound8879]

The biggest problem the movie has is it’s title. You’d think Marvel would use the film to resolve all the multiverse stuff in the one film and market it as a near Avengers issue to justify Dr. Strange being powerful for dealing with it mostly alone. It would also mean that it would be the MCU’s crisis that limits the multiverse into a more coherent limited amount for future films. Marvel has other plans though, and apparently wants that for another project. Dr. Strange - The Illuminati Doctor [S] Strange Doctor Strange and the Dark-hold

[@Misora7303]

To be honest, Wanda being insane is very realistic to me, she has gone to hell and back so many times while coming out worse every time, she has no support network or someone who she can share her pain with, she is seen as a monster by everyone (justifiably so, but what she did to them wasn't on purpouse at first and she keep going because she thought they we're happier that way, so she doesn't sees herself as a monster, she is in denial of her actions and needs to feel wanted) and she is fighting against PTSD having as her only hope a book that hurts her mind even more (That might as well be drugs) Her kids are real to her (And literally real in the comics, they reincarnate) and they are the only thing she has left from her family, it is extreme, but as a comic way to deal with someone on a very Bad and exagerated psychotic episode seems fine enough, in What If Dr. Strange destroyed a whole reality so could be with his girlfriend again and he went way further than Wanda and I don't see people complaining about it.

[@bkaneshiro14]

What makes it worse is that key word: She HAS no support network. She had one, in Vision, but she was forced to straight up murder her support network while holding back what amounted to an angry god, and have all of that emotional turmoil be rent for naught. NOW she has nothing.

[@ThyFloorestFloor]

The thing that differentiated both Strange and Wanda is that Strange had to pay the consequences for what he did. His universe was gone. No undoing it. And he's trapped there for all eternity.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@bkaneshiro14 sure from her perspective, she then got a chance to see the one who murdered her husband die less than an hour later, but that probably made her felt worse and empty especially after she saw vision's corpse being spliced up (because, his corpse, being made of vibranium would be valuable)

[@charlesludwig8672]

Your Dr strange scenario occurs in the movie as well. He uses the darkhold and travels universes to kill the other Dr stranges because if he can't be with Christine, then no one can. Just like Wanda.

[@M0nteplier]

The Dr Strange reality episode was just that- a one-off episode. It was a fun watch and held no actual consequences for the mcu so why *would* anyone have a problem with it? This Wanda is the main Wanda, the Wanda that actually matters so when she does something really out of character, people are going to get understandably mad

[@sladelucas5531]

I actually really liked Wanda's arc. Her grief was never resolved in Wandavision; she was made to realise that holding Westview hostage was wrong, sure, but that didn't truly give her closure. From her perspective, she had done the right thing, but everyone still hated her and she still didn't have her kids. She couldn't get that closure because a part of her felt that after so much grief she deserved something. And opening that door even a crack led her to the darkhold and her corruption. But even ignoring the corruption, way she acted was selfish by design. She didn't want to go to Billy and Tommy for THEIR sake. They were happy and safe. But she wanted to be the one to give that to them. She was jealous of herself. And the climax is her realising that what she wants is not in any way right or justifiable, but also because it isn't affainable. Even if she managed to get to another universe, her children would not see her as their mother, but as the monster who hurt their mother. That was the moment she sobered up, as it were, and was able to truly come to terms with the fact that she isn't going to get her children back. The point of her arc was for her motivation to be unreasonable, because she is grief stricken and lashing out, amplified by the darkhold, but for her to realise that. I thought it was really well done, and a fairly unique arc for this kind of film.

[@ohnobro1424]

Well said

[@emoji3266]

Welp You could say that Was Their Miscalculation

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Agreed!!!

[@fernando47180]

@@emoji3266 what are you on about

[@swaggasaurus4837]

Also, I can't take credit for this, but it ultimately relates to the theme of control. The movie was all about Strange realizing he isn't the ultimate sorcerer, but about him being a good person who doesn't need to control everything. The need for control is what corrupted Wanda and the alternate Stranges so much and also what drove a wedge between Strange and the love of his life.

[@Ellicess]

I love that you’re using the bloopers in the background lmao

[@kaidanhetzer6590]

I really liked Wanda in this movie, I liked they went full villain with her. I thought she got off WAYYY to easy in wandavision, and it makes sense that since she literally had nothing left she went to the dark hold for answers. And it makes sense the dark hold would torture her with her dreams until she snapped. I like how In this movie Wanda is just a bad guy we aren’t meant to route for.

[@asleepency]

I thought it was clear that when she was asked what she would do about the Wanda in the other Universe that it was mutually understood by Strande and Wanda that she was going to kill her and take her place, and the pause is meant to be a sort of "oh shit" moment about how far she is going to go for this. As a Scarlet Witch as-a-villan fan I really enjoyed how she was written. It might not have meshed perfectly with the ending of WandaVision, but the motivation was good and Elizabeth Olsen's acting really sold me on it. I think if you take WandaVision as Wanda accepting and dealing with her grief over Vision, but upon learning that for every other universe's Wanda that her children are real, and that she is happy, all while she is using the Darkhold that it fits very well Overall I do agree on a lot, I think that America was too much of a macguffin and not enough of a real character, for being a multiverse movie there really should have been more universes shown, I have similar problems with the Illuminati scenes. All of that said I really did like the movie, a top 5 MCU pick for me. I love Raimi's directorial style even if it only got to partially shine through all of the rewrites, reshoots, and problems with the previous director.

[@efoxkitsune9493]

I very much agree with you. I really liked the way Wanda was written here (and Elizabeth Olsen is just amazing in the role) and I would call her motivation anything _but_ shallow. I thought it made perfect sense, felt in character for her, given all that she had already gone through.. It just really worked for me. The pain and grief were too much to bear and she went a little bit insane. I think any mother would understand the absolutely desperate need to get her children back...

[@matheustran8009]

Idk why Wanda would have to kill the other wanda, couldn’t she just switch universes with her? Our wanda is far stronger as well, maybe cast some sort of mind magic on her to make her forget about her kids like Strange does when he makes everyone forget about spiderman Alternatively because there are infinite universes there must be one where Wanda has kids and is dead and vision is alive

[@langletprolet8378]

@@efoxkitsune9493 Tbh I felt like Wanda’s character changed too much. From being a hero in grief to literal brutal, psycho murderer who massacres without even thinking. It is not just a little bit insane lol. I get the perspective of a mother, but everything she did in the movie goes way beyond. I think how I felt is best represented by a top comment here, her motivation is good, but its a case of “went too evil too soon”. Performance was dope though from Olsen.

[@matheustran8009]

@WryZippowitz ngl, idk what anything either of you guys said has to do with my comment

[@simonbright2975]

:/ Infinity War, Civil War, both GOTGs, Thor Ragnarok, Endgame Winter Soldier, Iron Man, Homecoming, No Way Home were all vastly better than this incoherent mess simply because they were better written and more emotionally deep. Don't understand how you could put it in the top 5. And I feel like beyond the stylistic camera movements and horror elements, Raimi's style was more detrimental to the overall product than helpful. It just made the whole experience more jarring. So goofy like something straight from Spiderman, especially when in moments it shouldn't be.

[@davidfeltheim2501]

The alternate versions of characters I think work really well, even thought they are different people. They all share very similar traits and stories but the dimensions distorts it by whatever amount, being very familiar but a completely different person at the same time. Though yeah I would like to see them explore that as well as all the alternate universes themselves more at some point.

[@julianzabala9010]

I appreciate Strange and Wanda's arc in this movie being not to dwell on your pain. I think that's how the Darkhold works, it doesn't make you evil, it makes you dwell on your pain and the more you do that the more likely you are to go down a dark path, that's how the other Stephens and Wanda end up f*cked up, and that's how they are relevant to our Stephen's arc (This, by the way, is made even more apparent in Agent's of Shield when Dr Radcliffe merely glimpses the Darkhold and then literally creates a virtual reality that removes regrets from people but it ultimately becomes his undoing). I like how the movie almost implies that if our Stephen hadn't met America and formed a bond with her, he might have ended up like Sinister Strange. So Stephen learns to be grateful with his reality despite it's tribulations, like wong says. Wanda is this theme's antithesis; In wandavision she accepted her reality but she didn't really move on from it. We as an audience know that she wouldn't and doesn't want to hurt anyone that's innocent or doesn't deserve it, so we can safely assume she was reading the darkhold so she could understand her power (like she said at the end of wandavision) and avoid hurting anyone else (making this all the more tragic, god this hurts to watch). But then The Darkhold shows her a tempting solution to her pain, making her dwell more and more on her pain, to the point where she grows a strong sense of entitlement because of how much she's lost. When you feel entitled to something you lose sight of the person you've become. In Wanda's mind she's still a good person, a mother, and every evil deed she does she thinks it's because they didn't give her a choice, she's so focused on all her losses and sacrifices that she doesn't realize the monster she's become and she doesn't see the difference between the sacrifices she made for the greater good and the sacrifices she makes for her own personal gain. I for one, feel like all of this solidifies what a tragic character Wanda is rather than ruining her characterization.

[@Zuldaar]

Know what would've been really cool, helped the Wanda situation and the lack of "Multiversality"? have an alternate Wanda be a hero, or have an alternate Vision be the one who makes Wanda come to her senses. Also the illuminati were a little bit too incompetent, everyone but Captain Picard felt like they were not used properly.

[@Skyblaze137]

Why would she want to be an hero after already experiencing extreme pain and trauma. Being an hero would just drive her more and to insanity

[@crassons]

This is a certified Captain Picard moment

[@stxrstrxckmxteo515]

@@Skyblaze137 no i think more of an anti heroine type, plus it would’ve been a Wanda from a different universe

[@xenohusky5979]

I still think one of the biggest missed opportunities in this movie is Strange not meeting Dark Strange from What If, since he's the prime example of Strange's supposed threat to the multiverse.

[@TheRibottoStudios]

Strange Supreme can't leave his pocket dimension, but they SHOULD HAVE USED What If...? as a jumping off point into this movie. They said it would tie into the mainline MCU. How? Zombie Strange wasn't THE Zombie Strange, Peggy was a different Peggy as her suit was different, we don't see Strange Supreme, we don't see Party Thor why tease "ohhh it'll be part of it" if you don't...make it...part of it during your multiverse movie?

[@futurehistoryarchaeologist4480]

Only thing is that the darkhold was such an important part of the plot that it needed to have its corrupting influence shown. Strange Supreme is definitely a more compelling character, but his power didn't come from the darkhold and it doesn't even exist in his universe since he destroyed everything. It was also important to have 616 Strange use the Darkhold thematically because he was out of options and is a huge pragmatist. It is completely in character to show that he walks on the knifes edge while still doing what he thinks is right. It was the same way when he risked breaking reality when he trapped Dormamu in a time loop or temporarily sacrificed half the universe for years in order to defeat Thanos. That kind of got off topic but as much as I would have loved to see Strange from What If it doesn't make sense thematically to replace the Strange we got with him.

[@TheRibottoStudios]

@@futurehistoryarchaeologist4480 Strange Supreme is more compelling than Wanda's corruption because of one-ONE-reason: they SHOWED his descent into madness. With Strange and Wanda we were just TOLD "don't do this" or "do this and it's really bad something really bad will happen". Film is a VISUAL. MEDIUM. Why on EARTH didn't they SHOWCASE Wanda losing her mind?

[@ohnobro1424]

I thought that was him in the trailer. Guess I was wrong.

[@djohnsveress6616]

Strange Supreme is technically the guardian of the multiverse.. So i suppose if the multiverse is in danger, He will be in fight, he will be released by the Watcher, who knows when this danger is, Simple as that.

[@MinecraftWorld1954]

There was one scene in this movie that I cannot get out of my head because of how fantastic and genius it is from both an auditory and visual standpoint (Spoilers) The Music Fight with the evil Dr Strange. That scene is one of the best uses of diegetic music I have ever seen.

[@locomotivo4644]

Personally I mostly enjoyed the overall "horror" atmosphere of the movie, it was a really nice breath of fresh air from the usual superhero movies. Not to mention the orgasmic visuals and wonderful concepts. The plot and characters however... not so much. -Really wasn't a fan of Loki series, and thankfully I heard this movie was written by the same writer before watching it, so i buried any ounce of expectations in the ground and only enjoyed the visuals lol-

[@UncleHyena]

Honestly, I don’t think Raimi was restricted at all from a directorial standpoint and I thought he absolutely let loose. The writing held him back sure but the sheer amount of Evil Deadisms seeping into the movie locked a giant grin on my face. The demons themselves were voiced by his mates. Not to mention the silliness of the ‘pep talk’ Strange has with America while being a zombie was VERY Darkman. And BRO when Dr Strange flew with a cape of demons? Elite bruv. Raimi has always never written his films, it’s usually his pal Scott Spiegal or his him joint with his brothers, usually because often the script is written with his tone in mind. I think the biggest issue with the film is definitely that the script was Raimi in mind for visual sequences but less so in tone. It was definitely very MCU-ey.

[@smoogieboogie1694]

I've seen a lot of criticism with how Wanda was handled or how the Darkhold explanation wasn't good enough. But idk, I thought the ending of WandaVision set her up for this pretty well, with Agatha calling it the book of the damned and saying it is the Scarlet Witch's destiny to destroy the world. I do agree that the multiverse movie that actually makes full use of that premise is Everything Everywhere All At Once. I saw that one after this one and boy it was truly great.

[@InvestmentIdea]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXmkpoahjJJkm80 Finally it's here

[@Dr.Meme-Man]

That just makes it weirder since, if that’s the case, the Illuminati should’ve focus more on getting rid of the scarlet witch than Doctor Strange. Who only gave up the time stone because it was literally the only way.

[@emoji3266]

@@Dr.Meme-Man you could say That Was Their Mis Calculation

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

True

[@smoogieboogie1694]

@@Dr.Meme-Man They weren't gathering to deal with Wanda in the first place. They had a bad experience with their Doctor Strange and so when another showed up in their universe they were like "We have to deal with this." And they were planning to hold a vote on what to do anyway before Wanda showed up, and we already know that Xavier was voting in Strange's favor.

[@madisonperry7447]

I also was very upset with how they handled Wanda. I loved her show, I really felt for her. When we finally found out exactly what happened when she created the hex, my heart broke. Her grief was so overwhelming. And now she learned nothing from the show?

[@tsuumee4545]

She also learned nothing from enslaving Westview since she did it to Agatha at the end of WV

[@epicthecandydragon6079]

Glad other people liked the music battle, me and my sister both thought it was a random turn of events and really confusing. I understand in retrospect why people were put off by Wanda’s actions. I knew about the Wandavision post credits scene and was familiar with her character in the comics, so I didn’t think twice about it when I first saw the movie. My perspective whipped around seeing the rest of my families’ reactions. I do think it’s kind of dumb that you have to watch an entire series on Disney’s streaming service or get familiar with the source material for full context.

[@lckaboom6810]

When I go to a Doctor Strange movie, I want to see creative magic and imagery, cool fight scenes, and batshit insanity. I was immensely satisfied with Multiverse of Madness.

[@codypower4298]

Do you go to hear incredibly cringe worthy and hokey dialogue too?

[@Saul_Goodman497]

@@codypower4298 that's Raimi for you

[@ohnobro1424]

@@codypower4298 tbf it was better than the dialogue in his Spider Man trilogy

[@Clipzilla42]

@@Saul_Goodman497 Raimi is not the writer!!!!

[@Clipzilla42]

@@ohnobro1424 “He shoots webs.” “Out of his butt? GROSS!!!” Damn that’s better than anything Uncle Ben has ever said you’re right!!!

[@joestar.d.seba27]

I think what most people expected was some kind of Secret Wars, but this movie is not just about the Multiverse, is about Doctor Strange. The Iluminati may not be very important to Stephen's character arc, but they are in the movie to explain incursions and the danger of the multiverse itself. They understimated Scarlet Witch power and blamed Strange because of their variant. The multiverse is one of the next steps in the MCU, we are varely getting introduced to it with Loki, NWH and this movie.

[@catandrobbyflores]

Can I just say the guy they had playing Black Bolt was perfect. He had the expressive stares and the mannerisms. I was so happy that he was done right.

[@aboxinspace]

Oh my gOD YES!!!! Im so happy to finally find someone who realized this too. I legit had to go and watch all of "Marvel's The Inhumans" show (spoilers: it aint very good), just because he is AMAZING. He is also the new Captain Pike in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, and very good at that too.

[@catandrobbyflores]

@@aboxinspace Black Bolt has always been a favorite of mine ever since I found a bunch of his comics in a bargain bin. So you bet I was excited to see him on screen!

[@thewholecircus]

10:01 I think that it was good that the amount of multiverse was shortened. If the whole movie was jumping around to different fan service-ey locations that "all over the place" feeling would *heavily* enhanced. I do want to see a movie or show that's all about the multiverse, but I like the smaller feeling of this one.

[@abby9448]

I agree that that would be nice but I feel like they set it up for the chaos of many multiverses, even with the title “Multiverse of Madness”. It’s disappointing to me that you get that little preview where they jump dimensions for the first time and get into all these wacky universes for a second, but ultimately end up in worlds where not much outside of the direct plot is different

[@thewholecircus]

@@abby9448 Yeah, but that was just poor marketing

[@kamacassy4073]

I’d say I probably agree with most of this, except for Wanda. I really think it makes some sense that she’s reached this point, since she’s always been very morally grey since Age of Ultron, and her grief plus the Darkhold was just able to exacerbate that even more. Plus we see at the end of Wandavision that, while I agree she’s accepted the fact that the Vision she knew is dead and she has to move on from him, she really only half-accepted the loss of her kids, which must have been so much more painful seeing as, unlike Vision, they never existed pre-hex. So I think it makes sense that she took what Agatha said to heart, got influenced by the Darkhold, and would do whatever it took to find her kids again.

[@scenealizer]

Honestly, even though this portrayal of wanda doesn’t add up with wandvision, you can’t deny that she makes a great villain and Olsen delivered!

[@upg5147]

It actually does given the post credit scene of WandaVision which starts her Dark descent (pun intended)

[@meris8486]

She sucked for me. They ruined Wandas character she's now the classic "woman who becomes powerful and goes insane" and then murders everyone for stupid reasons. It's like Dany in Game Of Thrones. Her children were never real she made them up with illusion magic so she chooses to kill everyone who gets in her way from killing Chavez and taking her powers all so she can go to a universe where she can kidnap these fake children. Even Thanos the Mad Titan had more of a conscience than her.

[@ugochukwumgbemene3869]

Her villainy made no sense to me. I mean she is trying get something she never actually had in the first place and killing people to do so. That's just insane. She makes Thanos look like a reasonable guy🤷🏾‍♂️

[@richardmolina953]

@@meris8486 I get what you’re saying, but tbh, in the comics Wanda has always been portrayed as some form of mentally unstable. When the heroes wanted to leave her hex where she gave them better lives, she got into a fit and erased all mutants from existence. Even before that, during the avengers comic reboot, she caused the end of the world through her psychic abilities and reality warping. She’s meant to not be reasonable, she’s known to have tantrums, and that’s why once she finally clears her head, she decides to make things right. Had they kept her a villain without any form of redemption I’d say they murdered her comic book characterization, but they didn’t.

[@hi-five4960]

Literally has not been denied

[@WarriorConsole]

Wanda was very confusing to me. I actually thought our Wanda was an evil Wanda from another universe, taking control of our Wanda, who we know had character development from the WandaVision. But no. She "double downed" like you said. I mean, that's what I thought was happening in the after credit scene in WandaVision too lol.

[@christopherwilliams6848]

You're not the only one who read Wandavision's story as being one where she came to terms with her situation. I really feel like she could have done with one more piece of media to actually show us her decline into villainy before this one, if that was the direction they really wanted to go in.

[@Apenn_73]

Honestly I think her motivation is just fine. The way I see it she’s angry at the whole world cause everything she’s ever loved has been taken away from her. This is paraphrasing but the line where she said “ I put a hole in my husband’s head and it meant nothing” killed me. I agree that her ending in Wanda Vision kinda hurts this story line but i think Elizabeth Olsen makes up for that in her portrayal of the character. It would have been much better if the ending of wanda vision didn’t pull it’s punches and try to return to a seeming status quo.

[@luukrawks]

You're insane. Right after than line someone, any normal person should have answered "wtf do you mean it meant nothing? It saved half the fking universe. Is knowing you saved half of all life not already satisfying enough? That your husband's death saved so much? Also, you never had any kids. You were so selfish on the loss of a loved one that you magic-ed up a couple of kids you spent little to no time with". That's what someone should have told her. So I don't know how anything she did was remotely justified given Strange should be the most psychologically damaged out of all the super heroes, and he's not fucking destroying realities and murdering any innocent person trying to stop him.

[@Apenn_73]

@@luukrawks in the grand scheme of it all wanda killing vision had a net 0 effect of the way infinity war and end game played out. Also telling someone who has a dead significant other that it’s okay because it was better for the world this way is the same reasoning alternate dr strange was gonna use to kill America. The ends don’t make the action better or easier to handle. It’s not even the loss of vision that makes it hard. She’s dealt with so much trauma in her life from the time she was child to her current day and and the only break she got from her traumatic life she was forced to kill. Idk why you think dr strange has more trauma than her. In my view of it she clearly got it much worse.

[@Apenn_73]

@@luukrawks also I think you’re mistaking a good motivation with a justification. Nothing wanda did was okay. However, considering her natural story progression of continual loss and grief I think there’s only so much grieving someone can take that early in their life before they get fed up with the way the world is treating them. With wandas innate affinity towards magic and witchcraft she had the exact means of changing the way that her life went so for once in her whole life she took something she wanted. That makes sense to me as a motivation but no way does that make what she did okay

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

I think it continued well from WandaVision, she had gotten over Vision's death (even in the movie she never wanted another Vision, she's moved past that) but as seen in the post-credits of WandaVision she hasn't gotten over losing her children which is still a very fresh wound.

[@beni2076]

Yeah exactly and all of that wouldn't happen if dr strange didn't given up the stones

[@ashallen2143]

I can see why some don't like the way Wanda's motivations went, but if it helps I saw the twins as an allegory for her depression and grief (specifically unhealthy/addictive coping mechanisms, possibly substances) and the direction they took in this movie really solidified it for me. On one hand, it helpped her get over vision. On the other now she can't let go. She knows she shouldn't want it, that it's unhealthy, but she feels like she needs it. That the moment she tries to break away she's just reminded of it again and again. She's desperate, irrational, manic, and would do anything to get one more taste of that momentary "relief". By the end She's finally realized that it won't help her, and she gives up her dependence on her boys...NOW IF ONLY THEY WOULD STOP KILLING THE GOOD CHARACTERS

[@loonar7960]

I didn't see no body.

[@soulstealer5625]

@@loonar7960 Alt wandas are always on hand if need be.

[@peterparker9954]

She feels more connected with her fake kids than her real brother Quicksilver and her real beloved Vision ??? Also, why didn't she seek out White Vision who had all his memory restored ? They could have spray painted him with the colours of the original Vision !!!😂😂😂 This movie had some of the worst writing in MCU history

[@ashallen2143]

@@peterparker9954 I figured she had moved on from Pietro by the time WV came out. Also getting your skull crushed by your ex might've killed those chances lol

[@jacksond9297]

I believe Wanda is one of the more complex MCU villains. To me, her motivations make complete sense. Wanda's motivations have more depth than a LOT of other MCU villains. Most of the MCU villain's are 100% pure monsters while Wanda has a motive that drives her to do these atrocities. For example, Guardians of the Galaxy had a bland villain with really no motives besides becoming powerful. Wanda has a lot more depth than a LOT of other villains in the MCU and that is enough for me.

[@g.O.O.dMusik]

I disagree strongly about Wanda’s motivation. It makes sense and doesn’t feel out of character for her. She honestly went though so much shit, and I think that she really would do so much just to be with her kids. As well as that, I loved the way that her story ended. After finally realising that what she has become isn’t what her children admire or love, she decides to do the right thing and destroy the dark hold in every universe, sacrificing herself in the process. Overall, this movie is a 9/10 imo. My only critique is that America Chavez didn’t get enough character development, but since she’s probably gonna be in future titles, I hope that Multiverse of Madness is only the beginning of her arc, not the end of it.

[@dabest8777]

Well I hate to say this, but just because people have gone through shit, doesn’t mean they should be a fucking dick. Also she just completely forgot about Vision, Pietro and her parents. The ENTIRE reason she made the Hex in Westview. Also also, I don’t think that she would do anything to get her kids because you know, she let Westview go. Also also also, the excuse that America is going to be an actual character later is so dumb. Because how does her being a character late affect this movie? She’s still nothing in this movie and her having a character later means this movie is retroactively worse on rewatch since now it seems like a character assassination. Sorry, I may have gone too far in a few places but I hate this movie a lot. You can love it but it’s just so unbelievably stupid in my opinion

[@g.O.O.dMusik]

@@dabest8777 That’s fair, I know that Wanda’s actions were really shitty but I like the idea of an Avenger snapping and turning on the world they once knew. It had kinda been done with Captain America but he didn’t turn fully evil. It was a neat idea to watch wanda break and be corrupted like this

[@dabest8777]

@@g.O.O.dMusik yeah the idea is cool but that’s it, an idea. I could have the greatest idea in the world but I could fuck it up and the execution would be terrible making the final product terrible.

[@g.O.O.dMusik]

@@dabest8777 that’s a completely fair and valid opinion, I personally liked the movie but that doesn’t mean everyone has to

[@motherplayer]

I'm glad you brought up "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once" in this. Reminded me I enjoyed that multiverse story and coming away with a newfound appreciation for what we had rather than what we didn't, as opposed to the one where I'm just doing stupid faces at seeing cameos and embracing the nihilism of this concept in the worst ways the former was going against. Don't worry about that 3rd eye guys, it's more important to know he'll be just fine and working with his future actor replacement. Make machine go.

[@grungedorito5735]

Ok mcu boomer hater, keep enjoying your pretentious 2 hours indie movies that gain 2 dollars at the box office

[@notthatserious480]

I feel like Scott derickson wanted to create a horror movie with multiverse aspects not a multiverse movie with horror aspects like the one we got. I woulda loved to see his take on Wanda and such.

[@ohnobro1424]

I kinda like Raimi’s direction more than that tho

[@notthatserious480]

@@ohnobro1424 I do too with how he focused on Wanda a lot. But I feel a lot of the problems ppl have with the script and pacing, would’ve fixed if they focused on one of the two premises. I’d also be lying if I said I wouldn’t love to see an Insidous level dr strange movie.

[@leoalper4530]

The way Doctor Strange 2 ended has left me a bit worried for the future of the MCU. I enjoyed the film quite a lot, despite its flaws, and I am not worried because of the quality of this movie (one movie should not derail an entire cinematic universe). I'm worried because this movie is a final nail in the coffin to make it truly feel like the MCU no longer has a trajectory or its "next Endgame". The reason the Infinity Saga worked so well and flowed between each and every installment was because they all were ultimately leading towards Infinity War and Endgame. It was why the MCU was initially created as one connected universe, and why it justified being connected. In a post-Infinity Saga MCU, what is the direction? What is the justification for every movie to be a part of one connected universe (and I guess multiverse now) besides the fact that it takes place in the same timeline and universe. For a cinematic universe to work, every movie needs to be individual yet also suplementary to a larger story or plot otherwise it feels pointless. Therefore, in order for the MCU to continue working as a connected universe, it needs to find the next thing that will tie everything together and replace the infinity stones and Thanos. We all thought that it will start that with the multiverse but it no longer seems that that is the case. Loki, WandaVision, and No Way Home all seemed to be building up some sort of multiverse storyline that will culminate in the movie that literally has "multiverse" in its title. Eventually this would expand the MCU to allow for the already announced Fantastic Four, X-Men, and eventually perhaps Secret Wars. But Doctor Strange 2's ending shatters those assumptions and leaves the MCU with a confirmed lack of direction. You'd expect the MCU's multiverse-focused movie to have bigger ramifications on the entire MCU and not just Doctor Strange. It essentially shifted the multiverse storyline from a what we could only assume was going to be a larger MCU plot to a reduced isolated Doctor Strange story/concept for his subsequent sequels. The mutliverse seemingly no longer matters outside of Doctor Strange or just general MCU lore. I think this ultimately harms the MCU at large because it confirms that Phase 4, at least as of now, has introduced no new direction for the MCU moving forward, and is slowly becoming into a collection of corners (franchises of individual characters and related supporting roles) that just happen to take place in the same timeline. I mean none of the Phase 4 movies really are leading to anything anymore. They are just either individual stories, like Shang-Chi or Hawkeye, or they delve into more exposition for the MCU lore, like Loki. It is becoming very similar to the comics where you have isolated cosmic storylines, isolated magic/sorcery storylines, isolated street-level stories, and more and they only ocassionally team up for an Avengers level story. And while this works well in comics were you have seperate comic lines with their own fanbases, I don't think this can work for the MCU that has built its reputation on being a single connected universe. I hope this is temporary and Kevin Feige is only slowly phasing in to a new saga that will have its own "Endgame" where each new movie will keep fans excited for the next chapter in a massive buildup to a big epic. But for the time being, it leaves Phase 4 feeling very disconnected.

[@booyahhayoob]

Sums up how I feel as well. Fingers crossed for Quantumania to continue the “overarching” storyline, but it definitely feels like it’s starting to go the “individualism” route of the comics.

[@GameExplore100]

A bit late on this I know, I Agree with all on what you said in the Direction of Phase 4 or Lack there of with it but let’s all remember the timeline of what the MCU was back in 2008 to 2011. Those movies basically have there owned Self Contained stories like the comics do and took a couple years until 2012’s Avengers where the MCU really took off. I believe what the MCU is doing right now is Characters from the Infinity Saga have their owned self contained stories or they have a story that’ll set up new characters that’ll replace the old ones. Like with the Sylvie/Loki, Kate/Clint, Natasha/Yelena to name a few. I believe the MCU is kinda are going through the Acceptance Faze or the Epilogue of Endgame. Falcon becoming the new Cap, Bucky leaving behind the Winter Soldier, Thor facing his internal conflicts, Spider-Man accepting the fact that he basically doesn’t exist as Peter Parker only Spider-Man. Kate becoming the new Hawkeye and over time Shang Chi, Moon Knight, She Hulk and soon to be more are gonna build upon the Avengers and go against Kang the Conqueror. The Calm Before the Storm is best way to say about Phase 4

[@leoalper4530]

@@GameExplore100 I get what you mean about phase 1 being the same, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. Then no one knew where the MCU would get to, including Marvel. If the MCU wouldn't have worked out, then it would be better if they were just stand alone marvel movies.

[@doratarani192]

About Wanda's villainy; well yeah it was the artifact but themtaically, the artifact is a symbol for anything that offers you a false promise of hope (that is a very addictive stage in the grieving process) and however outlandish it feels, grief is one of the most variable experiences a person can go through and is very possible to manifest in such a way that seems completely ridiculous. Great vid for the rest of the way, though!

[@TDM1138]

There was actually leaks reported on months ago by several sources that claimed Wanda was intended to decapitate MCU Mordo at the beginning of the film when he hunts her down first. Now it’s not confirmed, but in an interview Olsen said she was supposed to kill even more people, and Raimi says 40 minutes were cut from the film, so maybe it’s best we didn’t get to see MCU Mordo here.

[@ohnobro1424]

Damn

[@Caleb-zl4wk]

Woulda been pissed

[@NathanButh]

I liked the movie as released but now I want to see the Raimi cut 😅

[@davidleon9037]

I'm genuinely confused why a lot of people keep saying they "character assassinated" Wanda. I personally never got the impression that she really processed how messed up her actions were in WandaVision (especially with that pretty ominous post-credit scene). It always felt like the set-up for her villain arc and that this would be the payoff. Truthfully, I had doubts they'd actually commit to it but O man.... that beautiful carnage. Sam Raimi is the true master!

[@langletprolet8378]

Oh yes. I absolutely enjoyed carnage. But at the same time I still feel a bit weird about the character in this movie. It was definitely a setup for a villain arc at end of wandavision, but watching how that unfold in this reminded me so much of how Anakin Skywalker’s arc went about. Just suddenly too evil and absolutely psycho too soon. Everything Wanda did in this movie .... goes way beyond of what was expected of the character’s villain arc. This why the Darkhold as the plot device was absolutely necessary despite the criticism. It makes her downfall to such a degree a little more believable.

[@davidleon9037]

@@langletprolet8378 that’s totally fair! A build up to her being full psycho would’ve been much more satisfying to watch. It definitely felt like they had to juggle a ton of elements when making this.

[@simonbright2975]

@@davidleon9037 It felt forced, contrived dude. If you give it a rewatch, you'll find many writing or directing choices to be questionable and convenient.

[@davidleon9037]

@@simonbright2975 I disagree, I didn’t think it felt forced. Her being a villain was something I really wanted so I really liked how bold they were. I do agree that the script could’ve been a lot stronger. But the direction?? One of the unquestionably best parts!!

[@simonbright2975]

@@davidleon9037 Yeah, I liked her as a villain. I'm just saying that her motivations and resolution were ankle deep shallow, with a whole act missing that could have bridged Wanda Vision and this. And she both didn't feel as scary (as Thanos) and neither did it feel like anyone put up a big fight. Such a letdown. As for direction, there were some nice touches, but nothing groundbreaking. And I feel like the goofy Raimi stuff was often at odds more than adding to the story. It's like the movie had an identity crisis every 10 minutes. Neither a character story, nor a horror one, nor a comedy, nothing. Just sludge that looks nice sometimes.

[@roopnarinedeonarine4417]

My favourite moment was when Morbius showed up and fought Wanda, when he was almost beaten he said it’s morbin time and won. What a great seen and movie

[@yumeyumedi]

some or many transitions were so funny i laughed all the movie, like when they just use the cheap fade out of nowhere or close up to strange eye??? loved everything of it, specially the part where wanda walks to get the girl and she was like a fnaf cinematic or something, i even compared her to its been so long

[@GeekMasterGames]

Your point made around minute 8: The fact that they are unknown variants of characters we know means we don't feel quite as bad when they are murdered. That's kind of the point. It lets us have our Sam Raimi murder cake and eat it too. The fact that we know the characters well enough helps to sell it.

[@alwaysabiggafish3305]

Yes, it's also something they're using the multiverse for, which he complains in this video that they don't do enough with. Just because we don't have an extended tour of different universes, doesn't mean showing variants is not good use of a multiverse.

[@jezzychan7561]

I think Schaffrillas point was mostly how the Illuminati as a group of characters didn’t work with the plot, that being Dr. Strange is the menace in every universe. The Illuminati simply mentions that their strange used a forbidden spell to kill Thanos, which in turn made their strange uncontrollable therefore they need to look into other Dr. Stranges in other universes. But the thing that doesn’t make sense is that they don’t show more in depth why strange is dangerous, so their accusations fall short and unexpected to the audience considering there is not much examples of other Dr. Stranges consistently being a threat in their proper universe. They could have had a sequence of the Illuminati consistently wiping out one Dr. Strange after another, and showing the damage those stranges had on their world. It could have made us, the audience, question whether our strange would end up like the other stranges too. That’s what I got at least 🙃😐

[@Caleb-zl4wk]

Do people generally like that stuff? Cuz I can’t stand seeing characters I know and love get brutally murdered.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Black Bolt's death is the closest we ever get to MCU getting to the Netflix territory (e.g. The Punisher), regardless that the movie is PG-13.

[@gbdeck200]

That's dumb cause it could be done better don't accept less

[@ThePhoenixBoiYT]

I think that how you view the plot of the movie (especially Wanda) depends on how you viewed the end of Wandavision. If you were like me and was like “Oh yeah, she’s bad,” then I think you will really enjoy Wanda’s direction in this film! However, if you thought, “Wow, what a great ending, I’m sure Wanda will be fine from now on,” then you might be really confused about Wanda’s direction in this film. I don’t know, that’s just my thoughts. Edit: why do you guys argue

[@itseliserenee6754]

Yess you are spot on. That’s why I was confused.

[@theshire9173]

Yeah, I fully expected her to go full villain after WandaVision because she ENSLAVED AN ENTIRE TOWN! So I loved how this movie fully acknowledged that she's not a good person who happens to be grieving; she lost so much that she decided to never lose again no matter what it takes. And I love this direction

[@peterparker9954]

She feels more connected with her fake kids than her real brother Quicksilver and her real beloved Vision ??? Also, why didn't she seek out White Vision who had all his memory restored ? They could have spray painted him with the colours of the original Vision !!!😂😂😂 This movie had some of the worst writing in MCU history

[@erickamakeeaina1649]

@@peterparker9954 They legit did not tell Sam Raimi about Wandavision til they were midway through writing the movie nor did he ever watch the show, they just had him watch specific scenes and told him these were important scenes WTH Disney

[@peterparker9954]

@@erickamakeeaina1649 damn... that's messed up

[@rocketjimmy9238]

12:04 YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH FUCK YEAH!!!!!!! Schaff is watching mother trucking FRUIT BASKET!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@epicmusic9029]

The best way to improve the America Chavez part is for dr strange talking about how he felt responsible for his sisters death in his childhood so dr strange consoling America Chavez on her parents death not being her fault may have been more impactful.

[@crispybacon-1663]

My only problem with the movie was Wanda’s motivation. I personally think Wanda would be better if she helped out Strange defend Chavez and then turned on them later in the movie after she found out that the multiversal power could help her get ‘her kids.’

[@floofypenguin9215]

Agreed

[@Blue_M4ge]

That’s what I was expecting when I watched earlier, it went from 0 to 100 real quick. Still a solid movie though

[@Arkhamman2023]

Not enough Multiverse but definitely a lot of madness.

[@YOMARTINPRODUCTIONS]

You reviewed the movie in 9 words just perfectly

[@ButterPecan37]

I feel like the Doctor Strange movies are more of a spectacle than anything. You see the movie for the cool visuals while the story takes a bit of a back seat. Also when you boil it down, the story is simple. Wanda is doing bad stuff, stop her. There’s just a lot of extra fluff to make the movie seem “cooler”

[@untitledjunk03]

The part when Rodney Copperbottom from *Robots* appeared from the portal, while saying “See a need, fill a need!” to Strange and Xaiver, DAMN. This is by far one of the best things I’ve ever seen in a LONG time. XD

[@DrascorTheDeath]

I wish to make you one correction At first I also thought Strange struck Wanda when she was thinking about other Wanda. But as I have watched this movie 3x already, I can assurr it wasn't so simple. He gave her the chance to think about it, and she had a glimpse of aggression right after. He preemptively got her before she could do anything , cause she was gonna anyway.

[@alwaysabiggafish3305]

Wanda was quite clearly showing that she would kill or take over the other Wanda. Schafrilla takes an L on this one

[@annierobinson9282]

@@alwaysabiggafish3305 OMGG GUYSS, I found a HUGE SNEAK PEEK FOR THE ILLUMINATI MOVIE!!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6GynHWEfJt4osk…

[@Hodgeheggy]

One thing that really stuck out to me was the music. The scene when Wanda was casting a spell and there's that super awesome echoing guitar. That was so good I loved that so much.

[@heatherm5889]

danny elfman! he's a great composer

[@ballisticboo7808]

Also the little electric guitar riff associated with strange's third eye is pretty cool

[@ohnobro1424]

Danny Elfman is really talented. Great singer too.

[@emoji3266]

Mwah chefs kiss

[@emoji3266]

Day 12 of asking Schaffrillas to talk about Sid the Sloth in Encanto

[@spideyviewer327]

You put a bunch of my problems with the movie, especially with the fanservice, into words. It's not a bad movie by any means, I just...REALLY wish we'd have gotten the movie the trailers had promised us. THAT looked like it would've been far more interesting.

[@theaxbowlotl]

Honestly, my favorite scene was when Dr. Strange was fighting Scarlet Witch, and Morbius comes out of nowhere and is like "Time to morb this mothermorber". I was pretty astonished they were allowed to make that scene. Morbius was a beast though. He didn't die until Wanda used her reality bending powers to use his own morbing against him

[@Pehz63]

*Major spoilers ahead:* I think most criticism of Wanda being "too uncompellingly evil" comes from people who are too forgiving and/or forgetful of her past actions. If you pay attention and take notes as you rewatch her screentime in Age of Ultron and Endgame, she plays out the exact same story *to the beat.* She's only ever been happy with her family or Vision, and otherwise has been violent and vengeful and uses whatever justifications and compartmentalization she can to avoid the reality that she's a monster. She's often told to stop but she just keeps going or lashes back until something dramatic overwhelms or shocks her enough that she sees herself for the monster she is. In her regret, she undoes what she can until eventually she's all alone or encounters another tragedy and the whole process restarts. 1. Happiness: With her parents, With Vision, In the Hex (kind of). 2. Tragedy: Stark missile kills her parents, Ultron kills her brother, Thanos kills Vision, She's forced to close the Hex. 3. Violent monster: Swears to tear apart the Avengers, Crushes Ultron's heart and is an Avenger fighting wars internationally, Viciously attacks other Thanos and enslaves people of Westview in her Hex, Ruthlessly seeks to jump to another universe. 4. Told to stop: Various characters tell her to drop the Hex, Dr. Strange tells her what's wrong with going to another universe. 5. Realization: Sees Ultron's vision of annihilating the world, Agatha releases the people of Westview, America sends her to the universe she dreamwalked to. 6. Amends: Helps the Avengers fight Ultron, Closes the Hex, Destroys the Darkhold temple. Over time she gains awareness of her monsterous side and her justifications become more sophisticated and inconsistent. But in hindsight, her behavior in Multiverse of Madness is quite fitting even without considering whatever corruption the Darkhold had on her. With all that said, your review is quite fair to the movie and I love the high bar you put movies to. I wonder if I get a bit blind to the flaws of MCU movies sometimes, and it's nice to see you still reviewing them with a keen eye like you do.

[@androognoix1685]

If she isn't forgiven for what she did in Wandavision, make her redeem herself then

[@brace4impact258]

@@androognoix1685 I feel there’s a limit to what could an be redeemed. There’s still debate with Loki even in the tv there’s a whole episode where he lets a planet full a people die he’s still not considered a hero he’s just very charismatic. Basically I don’t think she should be redeemed just bring in another Wanda from a different universe

[@androognoix1685]

@@brace4impact258 you're right about being unredeemable. Wanda can't redeem herself fully now she'll always be a little messy

[@narufan987]

@@brace4impact258 a good alternative to full redemption is simply having the characters live with the consequences of that. Loki showed remorse and growth through his show, but he was also put in that position because of the things he'd previously done. If a future project somehow brings back 616 Wanda (which honestly I wouldn't like), her character should be used as a dangerous and unstable but at least partially well-intentioned one (from the top of my head, I think something similar to Poison Ivy)

Damn, this thread of replies is a really good one.

[@Kian694]

Personally, I really really enjoyed it. Elizebeth Oslen and Bendict Cumberbach nailed their roles and the horror was really neat. 9/10 for me.

[@emoji3266]

It’s too bad they were given a mediocre script they had to work on. Otherwise they did great as always.

[@emoji3266]

Day 12 of asking Schaffrillas to talk about Sid the Sloth in Encanto

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Same

[@prettycutegirl5167]

I'll be honest, when a witch takes the actual Necronomicon to fulfill her greatest wishes and it corrupts her, thats not lazy, that's just an actual properly applied usage of a plot device.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Thanks for the vid. I hear what you’re saying about then other versions of the characters not being the same as the ones we know. Wanda’s arc actually held the film together for me. Grief isn’t logical because emotions are not logical. She lost her purpose when she properly realized that her version of Vision and her children were not real. And grief just doesn’t “go away”. Because of all of that pain, she was reduced to, as a mother, needing to be with her children. If that was the vulnerability that the book latched unto and corrupted, I buy it. It’s kind of like an Anakin to Darth Vader back to Anakin story - but with Strange and America’s help, she busted out of it a lot faster, probs also because there was no Palpy egging her on - she had triumphed over her Palpy Agatha before.

[@Romalac]

I guess we're just two extremely different people, because everything you brush off as "incoherent" seemed perfectly natural to me ("natural" relative to the premise and setting, of course), and while I _do_ take issue with how rushed Wanda's motivation was, WandaVision did end with Wanda flicking through the Darkhold and hearing the voices of her kids, pretty blatantly setting up those plot points for later use. It all worked just fine for me, this definitely ranks among my favorite MCU entries.

[@upg5147]

I'm with you buddy. I've talked to multiple people and they just seemed to miss these key moments that counter their issues. I swear it's just bias at that point but I don't know...

[@shamilkey]

Yeah its weird seeing people call this moive and incoherent mess. For me everything made sense and it was perfectly paced

[@mariojordan9543]

When people have said ybis movie is divisived i get this compeltely. Everything makes sense to me too. I will agree i would have like more multiverse rep, but i was hapoy wiyh i got

[@gingerpotter21]

Right ? I find this movie much more coherent and the characters making much more logical choices compared to spiderman no way home where almost everyone seems to ignore the leaps in logic that were made for key plot points there and praise it as this amazing movie, yet here they nitpick small writing failures that dont take away much from the story as a whole.

[@Melmeltheclown]

Right, I only watched a couple of reviews on WandaVision and understood what was going on with Wanda and the Darkhold. I mean, you don't even need to watch WandaVision to understand

[@soulslikefan6760]

My only issue with this movie was the lack of universes. Like 2 more longer visits to weird universes would have been great. Didn't have any problems with the writing.

[@jeffhallinan194]

Yeah for a movie titled “Multiverse of Madness” they should have spent more time exploring that, especially considering the movie was going to be 40 minutes longer. Also the main two universes’ locations shouldn’t have been set in New York since we’ve seen that setting plenty in Marvel and the Multiverse should explore more creative settings

[@Blue-Apple-fc9eo]

@@jeffhallinan194 But i guess we have to wait on secret wars which Kevin said it’s gonna be the best crossover event ever sense endgame.

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

I was also confused how that whole multiverse breaking event with Spiderman was just brushed off since I initially assumed it would be the catalyst for this "multiverse of madness"

[@deafmew]

@@frauleinzuckerguss1906 doctor Strange was meant for before Spiderman plus they fix the problem in nwh

[@frauleinzuckerguss1906]

@@deafmew They did mention the events of NWH in this movie. And even though it was fixed, that doesn't mean it couldn't have had its consequences, especially with a piece of Venom staying behind in 616. I just kind of assumed that almost breaking the multiverse would have some irreparable consequences that Strange had to deal with. Maybe even something similar to the Illuminati in this one taking action because of his multiverse breaking spell.