Why Origen Believed in Intercessory Prayer to the Saints

One argument that Protestants like Dr. Gavin Ortlund make is that early Christians like Origen (185-253) denied that intercessory prayers could be made to the Saints. But is that true? It turns out, digging a little deeper reveals a very different picture.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
0:08 - Recap
4:40 - Gavin's argument
4:56 - my preface
7:36 - Gavin on Orgien
9:07 - my response & hermeneutics
10:32 - Gavin on Origen prt2
14:15 - prayer and its species
19:01 - Origen's Trinitarian Theology
21:55 - A helpful chart
23:14 - Gavin on Origen prt3
23:27 - Origen's On Prayer
32:35 - Prayer in The Body of Christ
35:07 - Gavin's response to me
36:38 - Gavin and Estrangement
39:00 - Placation
49:41 - Pagan Origins
57:52 - Gavin's Arguments from Silence
1:00:59 - Parables
1:07:00 - Straw men?
1:14:00 - Patristic argument
1:15:39 - literally no evidence
1:6:50 - where we agree
Gavin's Video with transcript:
• Praying to the Saints?...
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[@philip7461]

Joe's channel is definitely a little-known gem in the Catholic apologist world. How he has less than 10k subscribers is astonishing to me.

[@djo-dji6018]

It's a relatively new channel.

[@lyterman]

He just started. He'll grow quickly!

[@catkat740]

His channel’s new but his blog has been around for awhile and the content is, unsurprisingly, amazing.

[@marcondespaulo]

I've been here for a month or two. Amazing, indeed.

[@sivad1025]

As a Protestant, I love how he builds his arguments bottom-up without Catholic presuppositions. It sets him apart from a lot of other apologists

[@Anthony-fk2zu]

“Not buying the Catholic argument is not the same as presenting an argument against it” The winning line right there.

[@calebjushua9252]

🕵️We can create arguments out from Catholic doctrines which can be debatable in a healthy way.

[@bman5257]

The Matt Dillahunty school of argumentation.

[@ryandelaune139]

But if we don’t buy the Catholic argument, we just don’t do the practice. No need to present a counter argument, since the Catholic tradition is arguing in the positive. All that is needed to be done is to convincingly cast doubt on the practice. The alternative to praying to the saints and God is just praying to God lol. I think I and other Prots are satisfied with that

[@Anthony-fk2zu]

@@ryandelaune139 right, but that proves nothing. There is no factually convincing doubt to be cast.

[@ryandelaune139]

@@Anthony-fk2zu but understand that there’s no significant proof to be had within scripture (as we Prots don’t hold to sacred tradition) that prayer should be given to any but God. The parable about the rich man and Lazarus is not a convincing argument as 1. The point of the parable is to illustrate the impossibility of living for the world and God and 2. It’s difficult to pull a prescriptive action or instruction out of any parable in the first place. The parables are not meant to say “do this” they are meant to give us insight into the character of Christ and how he interacts with us

[@MrPeach1]

I personally like rebuttals to rebuttals because you have all the time you need to develop your thoughts.

[@bnjmnmrtn360]

I agrre! It seems like a productive way to have a dispute as long it stays within the topic and ego doesn't drive the back and forth.

[@thenazarenecatholic]

I’m noticing a common trend with Gavin. When he’s backed into a corner, he objects with “But that’s not what I meant.” This happens enough that either a) he’s not very good at articulating his position so that his opponents can understand him, and it keeps happening, or b) he’s engaging in bad faith argumentation. I’d like to assume “a,” but I’ve seen both Trent Horn and Joe (and others) sincerely try to understand Gavin. But, Gavin continues to accuse them of misunderstanding his position in a way that makes his views untouchable or - at the very least - confusing.

[@alexs.5107]

Very true, I could not have said it better. I predicted exactly what he would say in his response to Gavin: Misunderstanding.

[@danielcavi4917]

I’ve noticed this pattern as well, and while I have a hard time believing reason A Is to blame, I don’t want to assume bad faith. I will float a thought, however: The reoccurring issues that happen with these rebuttal videos could be quickly sorted out with the occasional face-to-face dialog to make sure everyone’s on the same page; then long-form content can be researched and written in a way that gets to the heart of things. I know everyone involved is busy, but this would save a lot of time and avoid a lot of frustration.

[@thenazarenecatholic]

@@danielcavi4917 that’s very fair

[@Plastikk2000]

He's in bad faith. Let's be honest. Wise as serpents, gentle as doves. He's obsessed and dishonest. Therefore I gently say he's malicious. :)

[@justicebjorke2790]

Exactly. He’s either a liar or illiterate

[@williamrobertson2407]

Thanks Joe! I'm a former protester. Been in full communion with Our Lord and His Catholic Church for about 6 years now. When I hear these protestant apologists it's like hearing nails on a chalkboard. I remember that willful state of closed mindedness and arrogance that I was steeped in. I really appreciate you taking the time to charitably correct Gavins false witness. I feel bad for him and all of those that follow him. He and all protestantism really needs our prayers and intercession. God bless!

[@Di_bear]

"former protester" 🤣 I've never seen this before. Super funny!

[@savagemode.]

​@@Di_bear it's funny how funny you are.....

[@justthink8952]

You are very charitable. It displays love for fellow man. Me, I can't tolerate him.

[@purplepinetrees5106]

I had no idea this channel was as small as it is. I've been subscribed for awhile and never actually bothered to look at the sub count. You deserve way more man! Keep up the good work!

[@jonatasmachado7217]

As a former Baptist, I understand where Gavin comes from and I admire his bona fide efforts. The fact that he believes in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and calls Mary the Mother of God is interesting and encouraging. It took me many years to reach those theological landmarks in my journey to the Catholic Church. I hope he will soon come to fully understand the richness and beauty of the twin doctrines of the Body of Christ and the communion of Saints.

[@goyonman9655]

Why do you regard those as "landmarks" They are just true

[@nathanh.9767]

@@goyonman9655he’s calling them landmarks because he’s referencing them with the context of his personal journey towards the acceptance of these theological positions.

[@StoaoftheSouth]

@goyonman9655 They are "just true," but, assuming we're all American, you have to know that broad American Evangelicalism has no real place for those doctrines, and might even repudiate them as "too Catholic."

[@NoahBradon]

⁠@@goyonman9655 he just said they were landmarks in *his journey*.

[@goyonman9655]

@@StoaoftheSouth Does this "broad American Evangelicalism" include Ortlund????

[@shlamallama6433]

Man, having watched you and Gavin's back and forth, it's a wonder that y'all aren't tearing each others heads off. I sometimes try to put myself in Gavin's headspace while watching your video and I can understand how he could get frustrated with you, and the same applies the other way. I have mad respect for Gavin for being super patient and for you as well. It's super easy to misunderstand the otherside and his and your comment sections are not helping either. This kind of stuff requires letting go a lot of what the other person does unintentionally to annoy you. Gavin and Joe, if you see this comment, know that I'm praying for y'all because y'all's ability to forgive mistakes is crucial for this discussion. God bless.

[@silaila3115]

I'm a Calvinist who is exploring Catholicism and Orthodoxy. It's unfortunate that Dr. Gavin's exegesis of the Church Fathers has been lacking. The first time he analyzed Augustine (His view of Ecumenical Councils, Sola Scriptura etc.), I confidently shared his quotes with fellow Christians from other denominations during discussions, only to be thoroughly corrected when they pointed out subsequent chapters and the broader teachings of Augustine. In an era where debates and interfaith dialogues on social media are more prevalent than ever, relying on poor apologetics can swiftly erode people's trust in individuals like Gavin who present such cases, and this experience significantly undermined my confidence in his exposition videos, and now, for the second time, I'm discerning the inadequacies in his work. I'm thankful for the accessibility of both sides of the argument on KZbin, allowing me to delve into the details that reveal the necessary nuances. While it can be humbling when proven wrong, it's far worse to remain in error.!

[@alonsoACR]

I absolutely loved your last paragraph. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32

[@TravisD.Barrett]

Which passages of Augustine do you have in mind? I’d be curious to take a look myself.

[@silaila3115]

The one Gavin covered were from On Baptism book 2 by Augustine, the claim was was about plenary Councils being able to err. There are some other quotes scattered I need to remember tbh but most of them were not that strong, but my problem was that i found it was fruitless to bring them to people like that as they are void of the historical context, when they were written, in response to who, language used/word analysis, taking into account his broader teaching (by examining other texts written in the same period rather to just claim he contradicts himself over the years), are just some of the things I didn't pay attention to before talking to knowledgeable people about this. Basically being creamed in debates XD @@TravisD.Barrett

[@TruthHasSpoken]

" broader teachings of Augustine. " St Augustine's writings are enormous. Extremely difficult for a protestant who attended a seminary with a bible alone emphasis to cover well, let alone all. Few do even in the Catholic Church. Among his other writings, I always recommend his Tractates on the Gospel of St John and On Christian Doctrine. These should be near the top of the list, after the Confessions.

[@Plastikk2000]

​​@@TruthHasSpokenthere's also the problem of translations. I speak a romance language and have studied Latin in High School. I've been living in an English speaking country for years. St Augustine in English sounds quite different, and a bit robotic and unnatural, when compared to the original Latin and neo Latin translations. The different types of prayer is also an example. Catholic English has those terms too but these works are sometimes translated by prots so they lose all nuance. There's also a lot of works from the ECF that haven't been translated into English yet. This weird parallel universe where the early Church was "proto prot" is pathetic. No such thing. I'd send Gavin to all the countries where the early Christians were martyred. I'm from one of those places. He's such a snake!

[@timrichardson4018]

Being a fairly recent convert from protestantism, I'm finding that many misunderstandings by protestants of Catholic theology come down to connotations from particular words that Protestants sense that Catholics do not. In many cases, Catholics use such words much more generically (prayer, saving others, propitiation, intercession, etc). Where protestantism views these words as very high and applying only to the Father or Christ, Catholics go by much older and more generic uses while understanding that, yes, Jesus is THE propitiation, THE salvation, THE intercessor, etc. And not just understanding these implicitly. They are explicitly taught in scripture and quite strongly affirmed by the Catholic Church, and reiterated in her writings and liturgy more so than I ever heard from a protestant Church. Christ and his unique work is the highest thing there is. He is the source and summit of all. His saving work is that from which all mercy and grace flows. But we as members of his body (especially the saints) have a participation in that work. So it's perfectly appropriate to speak of saints, especially Mary as doing those things.

[@Di_bear]

Twenty years ago, I asked, "Did Christ really intend for us to be Catholic?" I jumped on the Internet to find out what other Christians believed, and instead of seeing that, all I saw was list upon list of why Catholics were going to hell. I would read the lists and ask, "Do we really believe that? What?! I wasn't taught that!" That's when I discovered the Catechism. The misrepresentations put out there by different Protestant churches solidified my belief in the Catholic Church, because they put me on the path of learning about my religion in a way I never did as a cradle Catholic.

[@sentjojo]

Catholics (and Orthodox) view the Kingdom of God as a hierarchy with Christ at the very top. We participate in Christ's work and find our role within that hierarchy. The Reformers, largely for political reason, wanted to flatten the hierarchy until it was everyone at the same level and only Christ above. Protestant theology has been built on this, which is why human authority gets rejected, and everything is individualistic, just me and my bible and Jesus.

[@timrichardson4018]

@@sentjojo I think that is a very accurate assessment of protestantism. It was certainly my experience.

[@christophlindinger2267]

Relatively recent convert here as well. One thing that bothers me in the online space of Catholic apologists is that it does not get acknowledged enough, I think, that there were serious challenges before the time of reformation in the church, honestly it was messed up, deeply corrupted...

[@robertotapia8086]

@ShamelessPopery @Joe Heschmeyer this rebuttal video had to be made for the benefit of all. Thank you for all that your doing for the Kingdom of GOD. Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷

[@jimmydavid1993]

I just enjoy the debate interaction between Garvin blue shirt and Garvin green shirt. That one made my day. I only discovered Joe is Lawyer in this episode.

[@HumanDignity10]

I know…that was awesome and made me chuckle over and over again.

[@davidfuentes-silva8732]

Thanks for these videos! Glad you did a rebuttal even if it’s felt they’re not always helpful. Especially with someone like Gavin who has brought so many Protestants of many denominations to his videos, especially those who are unsure if they’re going to join the church. By making these responses you bring clarity to the matter and it helps. I’ve been Catholic for 5 years now and this still helps because my family is still protestant and they from time to time bring up these subjects

[@_thomase]

I'm so glad that I have the Catholic Church. 2000+ years of the best minds who have ever lived telling us how to interpret Scripture. If you're obedient to that you don't have to rely on yourself or some guy who came about in the last 3-5-10-100-500 years with some opinion which obviously can be dispensed with by any good Catholic apologist. Follow the Church of Christ or follow whoever you agree with in the time of your existence. Relativism is never any good - most people can't even keep up with the massive language misunderstandings (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic) much less the context, culture, and slang of the people over the centuries. I'll take the Catholic Church and it's teachings - unchangeable Truth for 2000+ years.

[@ericgatera7149]

Looks like Gavin has met his match in wit. Tough! Thanks Joe for the clarity in this exchange.

[@jimmydavid1993]

If I were a protestant, I would stick to the 'bible alone' error for all my defence. This wishing that Church fathers have something for them is always done with inconsistencies, if not insincerity. Church fathers were catholic or orthodox; stop forcing them to be protestant!!

[@FosterDuncan1]

Have you read Chemnitz

[@jimmydavid1993]

@@FosterDuncan1 there are many books I wish I have read, this included. Make your point please

[@FosterDuncan1]

@@jimmydavid1993 I’m very tired of Catholic talking about sola scriptoria etc but haven’t got it from the horse. Read the reformers and assess them for your self.

[@jimmydavid1993]

@@FosterDuncan1 reformers indeed. Even that claim is not in the bible, that is, appeal to the reformers😊

[@jimmydavid1993]

Once you have a Protestant catechism then come and debate your appeal to the reformers

[@PatrickInCayman]

Let's be mindful in the comments not to judge the *intentions* or *characters* of the individuals. Because of Gavin's objections and videos, I just learned a tremendous amount about Origen's actual teachings. This was an excellent back and forth and extremely educational and I for one absolutely loved it. Both were charitable and did their best to render their objections based on what they thought was truthful and representative of the position. When I saw Gavin's last video, I was legit questioning whether Origen was actually teaching that prayer was only to God. I read the writing myself and it wasn't until watching Joe's response video here, my eyes were and understanding were completely enhanced. This only made me a stronger Catholic. Thanks to Joe and also Gavin for this exchange. More of it I say.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Amen, Patrick! Less armchair psychology, more patristics and theology!

[@catkat740]

So true. I’ve learned so much from the research I’ve done after watching Gavin’s videos.

[@laurenatkinson1892]

Agree!!!

[@justicebjorke2790]

No. At some point he is without excuse.

[@captainkirk2705]

@justicebjorke2790 Brother, you are all over these comments being, quite frankly, a jerk. If you are actually seeking truth instead of just being right, I would encourage you to model gentleness instead of assaulting Gavin’s character. It’s a poor representation of the Catholic Church you seem to love so dearly.

[@tonyl3762]

THIS is how Catholics need to engage Ortlund, father by father, writing by writing! Nail down the facts father by father, writing by writing. Leave no room for misinterpretation or confusion.

[@mikekayanderson408]

You sound as though you think the “fathers” are gods! They were fallen sinful men who can actually be wrong and make errors and be downright unbiblical and may not even have been saved and led by the Holy Spirit who leads us into the truth - the truth of God and His word! Please remember just because they were Catholic does not mean they were saved!! Belonging to any denomination does not mean one is saved. Salvation is a work of God and God alone. Who gets saved is Hid choice not ours and baptism and sacraments n church attendance does not save anyone. kay

[@GabrielPereira-hm1cz]

@@mikekayanderson408 No he doesn't. Nowhere he says such a thing, that they are gods, they are of course men and falible. The problem is that Gavin miss understands them. Btw "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, " 1 Peter 3:21

[@Mach15-20]

@@mikekayanderson408You are a blasphemer

[@catkat740]

I agree! I love Suan’s arguments but Joe’s succinctness allows for the points to be easily seen and more likely to be answered by Gavin!

[@tonyl3762]

@@mikekayanderson408 You've inserted yourself into the middle of a conversation you know nothing about. Ortlund is the one who claims the fathers are on his side. HE is the one who sees value in the fathers witness/testimony (though you should too!) and that's why the conversation has focused on them. Why don't you accuse Ortlund of thinking the fathers are gods??

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Trent Horn has pointed that out so many times too that many protestants on these issues don't pay attention to the semantics at least in an honest way. Firstly most protestants construct a straw man about what Catholic practice actually is and then fairly post hoc, act as if it goes against the Bible and certain Church fathers. If the word translated as prayer changes semantically, that is not a problem. Someone from x year could say, "of course we pray to the saints," while someone from hundreds of years later could say, "no, what we do with the saints is not prayer," yet they could mean the same thing in essence because it is actually the definition of the word that has changed. This is also what is done in the Bible where certain Greek words which often actually had a pagan connotation are used for Christian theology. If someone pointed out this connection to demean Christianity, protestants would point out exactly what I'm pointing out here, but they have a double standard when it comes to Catholicism.

[@alonsoACR]

This reminds me of the "worshipping God" thing The old marriage vows in English included "and I worship thee" Worship used to mean to give someone their due. I can totally see a Catholic in Reformation England arguing for worshipping saints, and a modern English Catholic denying we ever did so. All due to a little word changing meaning. "Yes, I worship Mary and the Saints, as I do my wife. And?"

[@Plastikk2000]

​@@alonsoACRprotestantism has done a lot of psychological damage when it comes to expression of religious and fraternal sentiments. Imagine being so paranoid that every time you see an icon, think of the Holy Saints in Heaven, etc you're going to slip up and accidentally start offering them cakes 😂 it's crazy.

[@bearistotle2820]

​​@@Plastikk2000Oh dude, check out New Polity. The damage you have noticed is only the surface. They show that Protestantism has basically led to the fall of Christendom and almost all of our current spiritual woes.

[@thegoatofyoutube1787]

The more I listen to Gavin the more convinced I become that, at least subconsciously, his central mission is to preserve Protestant convictions (in himself and others) whether objective reality supports that or not. I won’t question his motives and I believe he’s a good and intelligent man but he is very willing to conveniently dismiss the mountains of evidence that undermine his views on the early church. It’s worth remembering that we all have our biases and Gavin likes being the head of his church, being a Protestant KZbin hero, and preaching long sermons.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

"his central mission is to preserve Protestant convictions (in himself and others)" Yes, I'd say that's fair. I'm pretty sure he's stated this. Your mission, Joe's mission, any Catholic's mission is to preserve Catholic doctrines. Joe looks like he's doing acrobatics to still contend that Origen was all for prayers to saints, angels and Mary like Catholics are now. I guess that's me being a protestant. I do try and just see what there is to be seen though, I just see evidence for these now CAtholic doctrines being present in the church that early after the apostles and it certainly wasn't taught in any scripture.

[@NTNG13]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 St. Paul said to hold fast what is taught by word of mouth as well, it doesn't matter it wasn't taugh in scripture.

[@thegoatofyoutube1787]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 There’s nothing wrong with doctrine developing organically if it doesn’t contradict previous doctrine. The early church spoke of Mary in very heightened ways and evoked saints in prayer; no acrobats needed at all. My point was not so much that Gavin “defends Protestantism” it was that I think he is more concerned with maintaining that than seeking the truth about the early church. The early church was Catholic and it’s really not that hard to see once you read the writings. Many people (including me) became Catholic after looking at the early church even though we really didn’t want to be Catholic at all at first. Gavin is seeing what he wants to see. His channel is called truth unites; in this area he can’t handle the truth. He’s not ready to change his life to accept it. My advice to you and Gavin would be to trust the apostolic church instead of your own opinions. These areas like “which developments are good” are nuanced and if you’re not going to accept the historical reality that a visible apostolic church has always been there teaching, guiding, and leading Christians than all you have left is your own interpretation. This is what Gavin is leaning on.

[@gregorybarrett4998]

@@thegoatofyoutube1787 Hi, goat. jeanne and Gavin are Protestant, so their entire conceptual framework is dramatically different. The Church speaks of unbiased observers being more readily persuaded. Thus animists are more readily evangelised than, say, Muslims, Protestants, or apostates, because they do not already have a conceptual framework which already accounts for, dismisses, or reorients materials which have natural affinities with they already recognise. It is helpful to remember that the concept of evangelisation is the idea of bringing good news. For those who know themselves to need a saviour, it is good news which surpasses all hopes and dreams. For those who have already satisfied themselves that the gospel is neither good nor new, impediments multiply. For Protestants, religion is a paper religion, with the only thing that matters being words on paper, perhaps elucidated by commentary which they are free to receive at their discretion. For us, the gospel is incarnational, establishing real, living, human experience renewed by grace, and so we readily see both the relevance and the continuity of historical developments to inform our understanding.

[@gregorybarrett4998]

*"...which have natural affinities with ***material*** they already recognise. ..."

[@87weberdrex]

Seeing this riveting debate between blue shirt Gavin and green shirt Gavin is great content. Keep it up.

[@MrPeach1]

can you imagine how hard this would have been if green shirt gavin didn't wear a different shirt in that video.

[@stananders2333]

Gavin 1 and gavin 2 just doesnt have the same ring to it

[@signumcrucis4172]

Great job, Joe. I'm glad you try to discern if the debate gets too much into egos. It's always possible in these discussions.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I don't see a lot of ego, mainly contending for the truth.

[@signumcrucis4172]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 to be honest me neither, but it's good that Joe is aware of it and states it.

[@Plastikk2000]

​@@saintejeannedarc9460Ortlund knows what he's arguing for is not the truth.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@Plastikk2000 I could say the same thing about Joe. I could accuse him of being a liar, just because he doesn't agree w/ me. That's nasty though. Sometimes people just don't agree, w/ no mal intent.

[@ST-ov8cm]

Thank you, so much, Joe. We need you. And, please consider that “rebuttals to rebuttals to rebuttals” can be seen by many as an open and fruitful, ongoing dialogue. I hope you’ll consider continuing.

[@jonatasmachado7217]

Intercessory prayer of the Saints is nothing but the interaction between the militant, penitent and triumphant members of the living Body of Christ and between them and the Head, Jesus Christ, "from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love."

[@matthewstevenson6835]

I'm a Catholic and although I agree with Joe completely on the underlying theology, I was actually in agreement with Gavin on his interpretation of Origin. However, after watching the video Joe changed my mind. I feel like an idiot in hindsight. When it comes to the Church Fathers, it's safe to assume the Catholic interpretation is correct. I think Protestants put themselves on the back foot when they wade into the writings of Christian Antiquity and assume a Protestant slant. It rarely ends well.

[@Danaluni59]

One of the reasons for this is that Protestant theological concepts did not exist prior to Hus, Luther, Calvin, and the other self-proclaimed reformers.

[@alonsoACR]

​@@Danaluni59 Yeah there's a reason why the oldest Christian most Protestants can name is Luther (if not an even later character!), a guy who is by all measures modern compared to the true early Church. Luther was of the 16th century, yet the earliest biblical analyses are from the 1st and 2nd, then in growing degrees with no stopping. The fact that within all the mind-boggling amounts of ink spent on reading scripture there's not even the consideration of their positions is VERY telling. Luther should've been humbler and asked: were all my predecessors blinded by some demonic influence on virtually every core aspect of the Apostolic Faith, or am I just mistaken somewhere? I continue to hold that the main culprit behind the Reformation in its entirety was that vile mistress named Pride. But if this is the case, which I firmly hold to be, then I cannot call foul play or malicious intent. Even I, too, as I type, constantly have to watch myself from the words flowing from me to place much judgment on their persons, and thus fall too into the clutches of Pride. I've accused Gavin in the past, within my heart and within an older comment, to be a malicious actor. It may not be the case. I don't know how I drifted into this, but I feel like I ought to put these thoughts out there. May God have mercy on Gavin, on me, and on all of us sinners. Amen.

[@calebjushua9252]

@@alonsoACR 🕵️Are you presupposing that Catholic is the true church?

[@alonsoACR]

@@calebjushua9252 I don't see any other candidates. Let me explain (I'll even assume no prior knowledge besides the core claims) Say I knew absolutely nothing of Christian denominations but I wanted to be part of the Christian Church, then I'll naturally go for THE Church and not mere offshoots with novel beliefs. Are these beliefs the ones of the Apostles? Of the disciples of the Apostles and so on? Only four have this historically verifiable heritage: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic and Assyrian. The Coptic and Assyrian have only ever shrunk and remained heavily ethnic. BAD sign. The other two, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, recognized a single unifying office: The Papacy. The Orthodox claim that the Pope went power hungry then later heretic, even though in the first millennium they considered him both a leader (even if in name only) and the way to identify the True Church (Ubi Petrus Ibi Ecclessia). Whatever the disputes are, at first glance the Roman Catholics have the best claim. They, indeed, have outgrown, out studied and out prospered all the others. This is a barebones analysis of how I can say, supposing no prior knowledge, that the Catholic Church is the True Church.

[@calebjushua9252]

@@alonsoACR 🕵️You laid on the table all the candidates available to your knowledge, and then eliminated one after the other those that fell short to your standard of qualification. Finally, you declared the last remaining one as true. 🚨 The limiting factor in choosing candidates is "verifiable history" thus resulting to only four (4) options. 🚨This is fallacy. You are rejecting the possibility that some truths don't depend on human perception or recognition (based on what is just seen, heard, written etc.). In fact some truths are yet to be discovered. 🕵️Example: Throughout your life, you have only seen dining plates with oval, circle, square, and rectangle shapes. Therefore, you concluded that plates have only four shapes-rejecting the possibility of dining plates having animal shapes like fish-shaped plates. 🙋Truth doesn't work like that. Legitimate evidence is required to establish truth, and not by eliminating options based on debatable standards.

[@bktawiah]

Thank Joe! You are by far my favorite apologist! Your are clear, tough, straight to the point, honest, and charitable. We need such intelligent defense of the faith. I am praying for you and your ministry!!! God bless, and keep up the good work!

[@mikelopez8564]

If Martin Luther saw this he might exclaim “reason is a whore and the greatest enemy of faith”. Oh wait, he did say that!

[@rhwinner]

It explains a lot.

[@RexKochanski]

Luther said "reason is a whore"; and he didn't scruple to use her, badly...

[@user-uc1yb7hy2n]

After hearing Gavin’s words, I’m reminded of the Twilight Zone episode “to serve man” And with every response from Joe we get closer to the truth. Great work Joe. God bless Gavin and Joe

[@Normicgander]

I've heard many Baptists say that if something isn't (silence) in the Bible, then that behavior is acceptable such as contraception, IVF etc...

[@SomeoneYouMayKnow]

Gavin has already stated he'd be down to have beers with Joe. Someone call Pints with Aquinas! let's have these guys sit down and discuss things over a couple cold ones.

[@John_Fisher]

I agree! I think they should take Trent's principle on rebuttals to rebuttals and agree that the next step is to sit down and talk together about the topic.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Good news: my in-laws live like 30 minutes from Gavin. So this is a very real possibility!

[@jonatasmachado7217]

There's no theological dispute that a good and cold beer can't solve

[@JohnBoysGold]

They sat down together on Gospel Simplicity

[@paulmualdeave5063]

This is a great example of how Protestants and Catholics have a different dictionary.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Yes it sure is. Prayer is prayer, and should be offered to God. Origen was very clear that prayer should be offered only to God, not people, not angels. The quotes Gavin showed to that effect were too too strong against it for these to disqualify them. If I only saw these quotes, I could see possible loopholes that Origen might have believed in the practice, but not taken w/ the full context of the other ones.

[@paulmualdeave5063]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 And the other quotes do not put Gavin’s quotes into context? You cannot go from others besides God to Only to God. That is what you are doing. It’s like James 2. It puts Paul’s writings on faith and works into context. But Protestantism does the opposite though James was written first. If they don’t outright just ignore James chapter 2. Watch the video again and get the proper order of things. Your thinking is reversing the proper context. More information paints a clearer picture. It doesn’t make your preconceived opinions.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@paulmualdeave5063 Origen stated too strongly that prayer should only be offered to God. These quotes don't change that. It has nothing to do w/ my preconceived ideas. I didn't have them concerning Origen. I went in a blank slate on that, curious to see what was actually there. You go in w/ the idea that you pray to saints, and that all church fathers always agree w/ you on all things. This is the Catholic view, so that's what you're going to see. I go in w/ the view that many of them agreed w/ Catholic views on a lot of things, but sometimes I see that they don't agree w/ all modern Catholic views. Some of the doctrines evolved over time, so not all church fathers, esp. early ones always will agree w/ them.

[@paulmualdeave5063]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 So, you missed the part about there being four types of prayer and you are only concentrating on one of the four

[@paulmualdeave5063]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 To take your belief then, you can pray only to God and not Jesus per Origen, because the definition of prayer you are using is the “mood” that is a prayer only to God the Father, “direct Prayer”. The only “mood” that involves only God is the “prayer mood”, “sometimes called direct prayer”: Per video: Four types of moods per 1 Tim 2: 1-2: supplication (“requests”), prayers (“direct prayer”), intercessions and thanksgiving. On Prayer, 9 by Origen: Requests ask for something. Prayer is directed to the “glorious one”. Intercession: asking someone in a better position to you (ex: ask someone to help you). A person on land is in a better position than someone drowning and someone in heaven is in a better position that someone in in heaven as they are literally alive and with God. “God is the God of the living, not the dead, for to him all are alive.” Thanksgiving: to thank someone Recipient of the four moods above: On Prayer, 9-10 by Origin: 1 Tim 2:1-2 again. Supplications: Father, the Son and the saints (people in heaven, Luke 12:42-48 with 42-44 being someone in heaven immediately, 45-46 is someone going to hell and 47-48 are purgatory before someone goes to heaven). Prayer: direct prayer, only to the Father. This is the one you are doing but note, it doesn’t go to Jesus, the son. The Our Father. Intercession: Father, Son, saints and others. Thanksgiving: Father, Son, Saints and other people. You haven’t really said why you reject these parts of the video. That is what you are doing. You are basically saying, I have my preconceived belief that I can only pray to God in all four moods. No reason. Ive noticed this about Gavin too. He will just outright reject a Catholic position and not give a reason. Example: direct prayer is only to God the Father. The Our Father is a direct prayer to the Father. Does it go to Jesus? No. Jesus is God but not God the Father. You would need to show how we can do direct prayer to Jesus per Origen. Ill assume you are like Catholics and believe we can pray to the Son. All you have to do is show how Origin says we can do a “direct prayer” to the Son and you have defeated his argument.

[@elizabethking5523]

Joe, I appreciate you so much!!! Thank you for caring to do this work!! It blesses me!!🙏🏻😄

[@benecliptus]

Joe politely dismantling Ortlund is such an enjoyable and informative apologetics sub-genre.

[@clarekuehn4372]

Pray for Ortlund, just as we pray to the saints to pray for him. 😊

[@MarquesGoetsch]

Absolutely Brilliant, Joe! Thanks for your incredible work here!

[@andrewscotteames4718]

I’ve been following Gavin for a long time and I do appreciate his irenic style. He has convinced me that he is more interested in winning debates than believing and defending the truth. When he gets cornered he just spits out a meaningless jumble of obscure and technical words and changes the subject, and quite often he will simply put forth disingenuous arguments. He moved me from baptist to Lutheran by listening to him attempt to defend a baptist view of the sacraments (which he really abandons but for some reason he still refuses to accept a more historic and biblically faithful view). He has been cause for me to self-reflect on whether I do the same illogical things as him, and that has led me to the point where I am seriously considering Rome for the first time in more than a decade of theological study.

[@danielcarriere1958]

Good post! Praying for your Andrew!

[@fantasia55]

Gavin’s nice-guy approach is a manipulative tactic to conceal his lies.

[@StoaoftheSouth]

I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you in this discernment.

[@sandmaneyes]

Not sure if he's a bad faith actor or not but there's some tactics to be had. While his theology puts him in the bottom third of intellectual engagement, he is immensely debatable in anything due to his attitude. That nature spreads his ideas since Catholics continue to make these videos. Let us learn to be wiser.

[@Danaluni59]

His resistance to truth and imperviousness to facts seems to relate to the fact that he is financially invested in Protestantism not failing.

[@h00sha]

Great work, Joe.

[@tonyl3762]

I don't think Ortlund takes the time to fully read any primary source (or entire corpus of a father's writings) so as to get the full context for various quotes. He's gotta be reliant on secondary sources that merely quote-mine for a position. Happens every time. I get that takes time and energy, but you could also take the time to examine Catholic sources/quote-mining too!

[@alonsoACR]

Oh dear this happens too often. I once was confronted by a quote in Galatians that allegedly promoted a Sola Fide stance. The best constructive reply I could give is to read all 6 chapters of Galatians. It's just like that. Any other attempt would involve pasting either the whole sixth chapter or the whole letter start to finish... such is the nature of Paul's works

[@kofiadjei-frimpong9279]

Indeed, a partial reading of biblical text leads to partial understanding. This is Garvin's problem and he is not alone. That is the method protestants use. They say what they think, instead of what biblical texts say.

[@josephssewagudde8156]

This is why I don't understand why some people uphold Sola scriputura yet everyone wants scripture to say what they think.

[@RenegadeCatholic]

There's only one way to resolve this theological dispute: Hell in a Cell style wrestling match.

[@SUPERHEAVYBOOSTER]

Or look to how disputes were settled in scripture, ie: Acts 15.

[@iggyantioch]

Texas cage match. Or over the top rope battle royal😅

[@timboslice980]

You've given me an idea for some pretty funny art work

[@iggyantioch]

@@timboslice980 waiting

[@josephdantonio9187]

Joe has Gavin Green-Shirt on the ropes WHATS THIS!?!?! GAVIN BLUE-SHIRT TAGGED IN!!

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

"full-blown medieval errors" Gavin would seem to assume that protestantism is free of errors, when every single denomination is a response to the error of another. I personally think the prosperity Gospel is the most sinister perversion of the Gospel. They will also say there is no evidence for the sacraments. When you show them the didache they find an excuse to not believe it.

[@michaelcunis8329]

The prosperity gospel is similar to the sale of indulgences

[@Plastikk2000]

​@@michaelcunis8329you don't know what you're talking about.

[@kylej.reeves4268]

Under the Calvinist theological systematic, to which Gavin adheres, there is no possibility for intercessory prayer to effect another’s salvation. He believes that their salvation was determined before creation, and was based solely on God’s own counsel.

[@haronsmith8974]

Yep. Intercessions are just signs and symbols onto themselves with zero fruit.

[@rhwinner]

Good job in tracing this error to it's source. 👍

[@chrissiah999]

It's awesome to see your approach in response. Really fantastic work there, Joe.

[@laurenatkinson1892]

Keep em coming Gavin! Making more protestants catholic by the day 🎉 🙏

[@Normicgander]

We can hope and pray!

[@goyonman9655]

This man misrepresented almost everything Dr. Ortlund said

[@salvadorhenriquez4091]

@@goyonman9655 explain yourself

[@goyonman9655]

@@salvadorhenriquez4091 What's there to explain He kept misrepresenting Dr. Ortlund

[@salvadorhenriquez4091]

@@goyonman9655 example of missrepresentation?

[@dorakinwarhammer2946]

1:05:30 - Protestant - they protest teachings of Christ and his Church. Gavin demonstrates it well

[@bman5257]

The name Protestant isn’t from Protestants protesting the Catholic Church per se. It’s from the six princes of the Holy Roman Empire dissenting or protesting the Diet of Speyer of 1529.

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

​@@bman5257they don't even know where they got what. It is built on a FALSE DOCTRINE Praying to Mary. Another Mary ORE RESULTS Who wrote the Rosary? St. Dominic Tradition does hold that St. Dominic (d. 1221) devised the rosary as we know it. Moved by a vision of our Blessed Mother, he preached the use of the rosary in his missionary work among the Albigensians, who had denied the mystery of Christ. NONE WHICH IS BIBLICAL or what JESUS taught. They came behind God and made their own prayers and ADDED to what was already FINISHED. .. ACCURSED DOCTRINE is what Jesus said. ..

[@thejerichoconnection3473]

Haha, Joe, I was waiting for this rebuttal to his rebuttal to your rebuttal. I’ll watch it later and I’m sure it’s going to be great as usual. What makes me laugh is that all of a sudden Origen became the oracle of Protestants. Then, when you talk about the canon, suddenly the oracle becomes Jerome. Then, when you talk about soteriology, suddenly the oracle becomes Augustine, etc. They keep butchering the Church Fathers to make them fit their presupposed framework in a shameless game of picking and choosing. Oh sorry, they call it “historical retrieval.”

[@SP-td9xj]

More to this point, I thought it was great when Gavin read the origen quote where he mentioned Paul and Peter and right in the quote origen mentions how they "could forgive sins" lol, even when trying to make the church fathers seem like Protestants you have to stumble over a whole bunch of Catholic doctrine that you oppose

[@jacobecklund717]

I'm glad Gavin wore two different colored shirts when he argued with himself. That was very helpful!

[@Danaluni59]

I also liked his caveat between estrangement and family members being distant from each other

[@catkat740]

The green shirt Gavin and blue shirt Gavin thing was cracking me up 😂 I just think Gavin needs to make stronger positive arguments instead of dwelling on how he’s been insulted or misrepresented. He takes a lot of things personally instead of letting strong arguments speak for themselves.

[@shepherdson6189]

The irenic tone hopefully won't fade away when Gavin (green or blue) is further presented with these very compelling arguments by Joe.

[@catkat740]

@@shepherdson6189He’ll unfortunately just ignore them I think and move on to another topic.

[@SP-td9xj]

I've started to notice that, he gets upset about some pretty benign stuff, especially while operating on the Internet of all places

[@bobthebuildest6828]

i usually can see where gavin is coming from, but im gonna be honest i simply could not see gavins argument in Origen Great job responding in charity, keep up the good work

[@michaeljefferies2444]

I think this a way better way to have debates. Let’s go back and forth in extended discussions, responding to criticisms, providing new defenses and evidences, so everyone is able to view both sides in their fullness. It’s super helpful.

[@jhoughjr1]

Most helpful thing in a debate is to escape the moment and slow down so it fits well

[@John_Fisher]

I agree, I think there's a lot of clarity of understanding and development/refining of the positions of both sides available. I've just wished I had the time to 'flow' discussions like this, much like you would flow a debate, to see what points get dropped between the back and forth to have a more objective sense of "OK, what is the current state of the evidence for both sides."

[@signumcrucis4172]

I agree. Sadly, it just takes one side to say "it's a misrepresentation" to have the last word on the matter.

[@cw-on-yt]

I agree. In a single debate, especially _live,_ there's no way a person can respond to every conceivable argument the interlocutor might raise, on the fly, and offer the best available response. THIS back-and-forth, this "rebuttals to rebuttals," makes that possible. I don't think you'd want to try it with somewhat like James White, mind you: My take is that he'd spin into a tizzy and the placid tone would suffer. But Gavin doesn't seem to have that difficulty: There's an earnestness there which is well-matched to that of a Trent Horn, Jimmy Akin, or Joe Heschmeyer. With THAT kind of interlocutor the "extended debate over time" can succeed.

[@kylecityy]

theres benefits for both, i think for someone like Gavin it is difficult for him to keep up with hours worth of videos while also being a pastor

[@tonyl3762]

Shame we have to argue about argumentation, but needed to be done to expose what Ortlund is doing, however sincerely or unintentionally. But likely this one rebuttal is sufficient. More will likely be tedious and repetitive.

[@signumcrucis4172]

Sadly, with Ortlund types, they can simply say "misrepresentation" one more time and he will have the last word.

[@IG88AAA]

I had a feeling this was going to come down to definitions of “prayer.” Without knowing what Gavin, Origen, Joe, and myself mean by “prayer” is a roadblock to understanding.

[@MrPeach1]

I love your lawyerly approach to this. I feel like I am listening to a cross examine or something.

[@shawnbaier8236]

Very good. Thank you Joe for putting in the time and effort to respond. I value both your perspective, and Gavin’s perspective and I personally do think these rebuttal videos are fruitful. I do not get to engage with those that have certain misunderstandings, and hearing both of your perspectives teaches proper argument in a charitable fashion.

[@jennyohanlon5380]

Joe, fantastic job! My favorite apologist ❤ love this! So charitable, so informative! Keep up the great work.

[@shepherdson6189]

Greatly appreciate these deep dives, contextual and nuanced rebuttal on Dr. Gavin's response. Really helpful in understanding prayer and intercession. God bless your channel Joe!

[@benclark1482]

I was excited for this and have been refreshing. I love my weekly dose of shaneless popery

[@carolynmcgrory1729]

For reals.

[@jonatasmachado7217]

Catholics pray only to God, of course, and ask for the intercessory prayers of the whole Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is alive and well.

[@daytimestudios3678]

And also Rosary of Blessed Mother. They are always blessed mother to pray but that is intercession to God/Jesus Christ.

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

​@@daytimestudios3678ORE RESULTS Who wrote the Rosary? St. Dominic Tradition does hold that St. Dominic (d. 1221) devised the rosary as we know it. Moved by a vision of our Blessed Mother, he preached the use of the rosary in his missionary work among the Albigensians, who had denied the mystery of Christ.

[@danielcarriere1958]

@@TriciaPerry-ef7bi The Rosary is a bible study of the life of Jesus as seen through the eyes of Mary. And our prayers to Mary are entirely scripturally based. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it: 676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria: Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her. Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham, because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

[@stevenwall1964]

Thank you Joel for responding to Gavin Ortlund. He comes across as such a nice person and maybe he is; but when I just look at his words, they simply repeat the same old and I mean OLD and fully rebutted claims of Protestantism. He continues with the Montra that Protestantism was a "historical retrieval" and then he states that Protestants generally agree on the: "5 sola's," 2 Sacraments, and the "priesthood of all believers (to the exclusion of a ministerial priesthood." And I want to have as much charity in my heart as I can but when someone is clearly aiming criticism and the Catholic Church with the claim that the Church distorted the Gospel only to have 1,000 different Protestant sects with contradicting doctrines make the claim that they are retrieving a belief of an alleged early church belief of "5 sola's -- 2 Sacraments -- and the priesthood of all believers (to the exclusion of the ministerial priesthood) Is demonstrably false. I have commented on most of his videos and asked him or any Protestant for that matter to show any group of early believers or any sect or even one father who argued for 5 solas' - - 2 Sacraments - - and the priesthood of all believers (to the exclusion of a ministerial priesthood). And I know it cannot be done because I have read the Fathers. I don't have the platform but you do. I think that it would be great if you answered the video he did in which he gave his 5 minute summary of why someone should allegedly be a Protestant. "Catholic Truth" did rebut it, but you obviously have Mr. Ortlund's attention. And I think it would be great for someone to ask Mr. Ortlund in a public way to back up his claim that the early church believed in the 5 solas, 2 Sacraments and the priesthood of all believers (in exclusion of a ministerial priesthood) with any evidence whatsoever. He scrolls through the fathers and tries to find a passage here or there that might seem like it supports ONE of the 5 sola's or the priesthood of all believers. And then he states "see! the early church was not unanimous." It needs to be pointed out that his taking one liners on one topic at a time; when in the early church and the church for 1500 years it was "The Church" that came to a consensus. There were discussions and dissenting voices on everything including the Trinity; and thus if a dissenting sounding pericope about 1 doctrinal idea means in the words of Mr. Ortlund that his had no solid patristic support then he should not believe in the Trinity and the Doctrine of the Incarnation on the same basis. And I did here you make that point in passing one time. But that is his entire methodology. He reads the Fathers looking for sentences that might be construed as negative towards a single idea and then he jumps up and down and gets all excited and says "see that! There was not consensus on that one point." It is the methodology that needs to be more exposed so that more people can understand what he is doing. And bless his soul; maybe he grew up in an anti Catholic environment and just had it ingrained into him. But he has to be smart enough to know that there is absolutely no single church father or heretic or Christian thinker anywhere in Christian history who taught all at once 5 sola's 2 Sacraments and a priesthood of all believers to the exclusion of a Minsterial Priesthood. Literally no one did that and to keep repeating that message over and over is just mind boggling. It is just so egregiously false and unsupported by any evidence I cannot believe people make that claim. Thank you for your ministry. I have been a fan of your blog from 2014 when I converted. I went on a pilgrimage with Catholic Answers and Chris Check a few years ago and standing in the Vatican courtyard after doing the Scavi Tour and I told him that he should hire you! I had just read one of your posts about the arguments that Peter went to Rome and it was before your book "Pope Peter." And obviously he did hire you! I am sure it is not because I told him; but I am glad he did. I just so much appreciate how you take things and go through them step by step and give the evidence. I hope you channel grows and I know that I will be supporting you.

[@shlamallama6433]

Joe, going into the weeds is what you and Trent NEED to do. That's part of why some people aren't down with Catholic Answers, that when they themselves went into the weeds, they were going deeper than Catholic Answers so they have to do a lot more digging to get the answers to difficult questions. Either Erick Ybarra or another guy said something along the lines of this on the classical Christian thought Channel (maybe it was Erick quoting someone else) 'in the course of my journey to Catholicism, every one of the serious objections that I had, Catholic Answers had no answer, so I had to go elsewhere before I eventually ended up Catholic." So please, please, please go into the weeds when necessary or even helpful.

[@brantleyrutz]

Masterful work, Joe.

[@carolynmcgrory1729]

I think a distinction that trips Protestants up is the phrase "pray to (the saints, Mary)" itself. The idea is NOT that we are going to Mary or Joseph or Padre Pio, and asking them to help us in their "own power," if it can even be said they have any. When we pray to a saint, that saint is NEVER the end, or the means. It is always in view of God, with remembrance of God, asking the saint to OBTAIN for us something from God. Grace, mercy, peace, help, favor, protection, etc. It isn't as hard or complicated as one objected to this might think. It's pretty natural to keep God in the picture and be worshipping Him as we venerate and ask assistance from one of His saved and perfected saints - a brother or sister in Christ that, regardless of how you feel about intercession of saints, we ARE mystically united to. Maybe this is obvious at this point for everyone, but I wanted to explain that in case anyone can't get over that phrase "pray TO." And lastly, I highly recommend venerating Mary and saints, and asking their intercession, and developing healthy devotions there. :-)

[@bman5257]

Protestants when they read Origen say Peter and Paul could forgive sins: Imma pretend I didn’t see that.

[@FosterDuncan1]

I’m a Protestant and see no problem with this. What are u talking about

[@bman5257]

@@FosterDuncan1 😳. You’re a Protestant and you confess your sins to someone who isn’t God to have them forgiven. Isn’t the sole righteousness of Christ imputed to you when you believe?

[@FosterDuncan1]

@@bman5257 yes I’m Lutheran. By the power of Christ given by the church a paster/priest can forgive sins.

[@bman5257]

@@FosterDuncan1 whoa that’s wild. I didn’t know that, my b. I knew you guys had confession, but I don’t know how to square the forgiveness of sins with imputation.

[@FosterDuncan1]

@@bman5257 also think many anglicans do it as well

[@natebozeman4510]

I think this response to Gavin was much better than the previous ones. I want to give you credit where I think it is due. I wouldn't exactly agree with everything exactly how you articulated it, but I felt your genuine desire to represent him well in this video. Well done.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Thank you! I was definitely trying to present his argument fairly in the prior videos as well, but his feedback (including where he felt he was misrepresented) was helping in getting a clearer sense of what he did and didn't mean by certain things. There are probably still areas where what he means and what I think he means aren't lined up, but hopefully this moves things in the right direction.

[@natebozeman4510]

@@JosephHeschmeyer I'm looking forward to his future videos he mentioned. I definitely think his latest response and this video were steps in the right direction for moving everything forward. For so long, it's been the same talking points back and forth in popular discourse. Hopefully, as we move forward, we can all be more nuanced in our thinking and better for it.

[@michaelharrington6698]

​@JosephHeschmeyer Hey Joe, can you line up the original videos of Gavins you responded to? I am having trouble finding them. Could be good to put in the video desceiption of the first round rebuttal vid.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

@@michaelharrington6698 yes, sorry! Gavin Blueshirt's video is linked in the episode description, but Gavin Greenshirt is right here: opentheo.org/i/5431341150608907844/praying-to-the-saints-a-protestant-critique. Jack (my video guy) will add it to the description when he gets done with another project he's on right now.

[@michaelharrington6698]

@JosephHeschmeyer No worries! Thanks Joe! Let me know if there is a way to contribute a small monthly contribution to your work, just something like 10 dollars, nothing in return is expected (e.g. no extra content).

[@scrapdog2113]

Brothers, let us strive to be charitable with Dr. Gavin Ortlund

[@jackdaw6359]

Yes we should love our enemies even our worst enemies

[@andrewscotteames4718]

@@jackdaw6359Gavin is by far not our worst enemy

[@scrapdog2113]

@@andrewscotteames4718 amen to that

[@jackdaw6359]

@@andrewscotteames4718 people who resist the truth wilfully are not friendly usually and sometimes seeing just how wrong he gets it really makes me wonder. I don't think he is dumb.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

Charity always. At the same time, Truth always. It's not either, or, but both.

[@TravisD.Barrett]

I really appreciate your tone in these videos. Most of the time this dissolves into attacking each other, but I respect that you’ve both tried to give each other the benefit of the doubt, which i think is very Christlike.

[@einsigne]

Excellent work on this. Thank you!

[@sami5to6]

Excellent rebuttal! Thank you!

[@verenice2656]

Thank you for your work!!

[@henrytucker7189]

This was very good. I suggest something more important than a public debate. I believe it would be extremely beneficial for you, Trent Horn, Gavin, and other well-meaning apologists to have a private retreat where you can have productive dialogue off the record. Performing for an audience can sometimes harden hearts (thanks to the human ego) while a personal conversation allows real relationships to flourish. This often leads to some arguments penetrating the protective shell which a public debate erects. I propose a couples retreat where the lads can shoot pool, mix drinks, smoke cigars, and argue off the record-- whilst the wives have fun doing whatever women do to have fun together. ;-P Food for thought. I nominate Matt Fradd to host!

[@saintly365]

Thank you for addressing this!

[@AllanKoayTC]

this video should be retitled "Joe vs the 2 Gavins." 🤭

[@Silverhailo21]

Thank you so much for this video Joe. It's really important for people to understand that just because you're pressing a serious issue that needs to be addressed and needs clarification and distinction does not mean you are being unloving or uncharitable. I've seen this many times from Gavin where he will throw up his hands and say something to the effect of you are being unkind to me or unfair to me or misrepresenting me or being uncharitable because he wasn't clear enough or he's being pressed too hard and being forced to acknowledge a serious flaw or contradiction in his systems or worldview. Forcing people to make distinctions and be clear with what it is that they're saying or showing them the truth of their various errors is not unloving. For someone who has such a confused and contradictory man-made system as Gavin, it's one of the most loving things that one can do. It is very helpful for us layman. It is very helpful for us to see these points pressed hard. These are all grown men here, theology is not for the faint of heart or for the weak. Please keep drawing out these issues.

[@natebozeman4510]

No, you need to understand that Joe's first two videos were FULL of misrepresentations and mischaracterizations. I'm a Protestant who agrees with Gavin on A LOT, and I watched both of Joe's videos on this, and during both videos, I at almost no point felt Joe was dealing with what I actually believe as a Protestant. He was always tearing down a strawman or something I don't believe at all. If Joe is going to deal with these issues, he needs to deal with what we actually believe and what we actually say, not what maybe some layman out there believes but not what anyone seriously researching the issues believes

[@natebozeman4510]

​@@bersules8Do you think you've done something here? Copying Gen Z insults to strangers on the internet rather than meaningfully engaging with what I'm saying? I suppose that's why you're on an anonymous account, so you can be a pretend tough guy.

[@dirtdog1097]

Gavin just says I don’t see it as a response to any real argument or moves the goalposts at warp speed. His video on the Eucharist was the best example of muddying the waters I’ve ever seen. Made no arguemnet for his baptists interpretation and relied on historic Protestantism for his defense, he is not a historic Protestant lol.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@natebozeman4510 this is a tactic known as gaslighting. Nobody's crazy here man. I converted to the Catholic faith from a form of calvinist reformed protestanism. One of the things that I like so much about Joe is how accurate and careful he is about addressing the actual points of contention. All the videos are there, and we can all watch the back and forth and I think like Gavin you are retreating to accusations of mischaracterization rather than dealing with the points of contention which are the contradictions that are inherent in the Protestant system.

[@Silverhailo21]

@@bersules8 🤣🤣🤣 indubitably 🤌🏻

[@EMarieGallery]

Fantastic opening really getting to the point and setting up the entire video

[@catholicbiblemansaint9385]

Mr Joe , you are amazing. God bless you!

[@rickydettmer2003]

I think a lot of people need to take a breather for a second lol. Both joe and Gavin (regardless of who you agree with) are both charitable and genuine in their disagreements compared to so many others in these type of dialogues. Let’s try and practice what both joe and Gavin stress so much in their videos, Humility. These rebuttals are great but I hope they have another dialogue together soon since the last two they had were so helpful for someone in my position who’s discerning RC

[@rickydettmer2003]

Where did Gavin explicitly say “Catholics are pagan who pray to the dead”? Not saying you’re wrong just trying to get clarity as not to misrepresent

[@rickydettmer2003]

Also, even though I side more so with joe on his reading of origen, I don’t think it’s fair to assume Gavin falls In the category of being a “son of the devil”, unless if you weren’t trying to say that👍

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Well said, Ricky! If you give those you disagree with the benefit of the doubt and you’re wrong, you’ve lost nothing. You’ve probably even helped other people who are struggling with the same issue. But if you DON’T give other people the benefit of the doubt and you’re wrong, that’s a moral fault (and even, at times, a sin). So while I think Gavin is operating in good faith, I’d encourage those who are less convinced to at least err on the side of generosity.

[@Wilkins325]

@@jpc9923that still doesn’t mean he thinks Catholics are pagan entirely

[@justicebjorke2790]

Dr. Ortlund is not charitable. He fools you by 1) talking constantly about how charitable and irenic he is and 2) being smily, smirky, and soft-spoken. If you pay attention to the substance of his words, they are the opposite of what he claims.

[@mikelopez8564]

Dr Ortlund dabbled his foot into Hislop’s fake news stream and Joe cut it off! Excellent.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Joe didn't prove his case.

[@mikelopez8564]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I disagree. Regardless of the issue, whether monepiscopacy, relics or intercessory prayer, Dr Ortlund just disregards too much evidence. I’ll add that first century pagans only prayed to deities (direct prayer)and reviled relics. Therefore HE has more in common with the pagans than early Christians. Honestly he is sounding like Mr mystery religion lately

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@mikelopez8564 I would expect you would disagree. You seem to be claiming that Christians who pray only to God are pagan now and are resembling Mystery Babylon.

[@mikelopez8564]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 you didn’t watch the video or having a hard time recalling the different types of prayer employed by Christians. Dr Ortlund accused Catholics of incorporating pagan practices. All I am pointing out is HE has more in common with pagan views and not that he got them from pagans. That would be ridiculous. And so is your jump in reason Edit: Mr mystery religion is a reference to Alexander Hislop and his work of utter fiction

[@jonatasmachado7217]

Saint Augustine, speaking about the wheat and tares that grow together, said that in the Catholic Church there are people who have never understood and accepted the bases of faith, and outside of it there are people who sincerely desire the truth and who may come to accept the faith in Christ and become Catholics. We must treat all non-Catholics, interested in the subject of faith, including Rev. Gavin Ortland, as future Catholics.

[@danvankouwenberg7234]

Aw, Gavin left stuff out and added other stuff in? NO WAY!

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Gavin "Quote mine" Ortland

[@jimmydavid1993]

i hope all those loud mouths that came here to insult your credibility, because of Ortlund usual appeal to emotion in his rebuttal, will come back and apologise. Just because many people cannot read all these contextual background does not mean people have to be deceived all the time by Garvin's passive-aggressive teachings and rebuttals. It is really getting people off. I just have to say Joe, Thanks for providing this very important angle that was never pointed out by Garvin, while claiming he is letting Origen be Origen 'crystal clear'. It is sad. the main person that refuse to let Origen be himself, here is Garvin. May all these force people to really read early Church Fathers. it seem Protestant are constantly trying to find credibility by reading their views into people that were distinctly Catholic or Orthodox. Quivering over a person catholic do not even consider a church father, was even more funny. Why is Garvin not focusing on his TULIP theology that requires rocket science to reconcile with the bible, Or at least try to unite just four prostantant denominations with 'his truth'?

[@eddardgreybeard]

Protestant soteriology is built on that, as they read their misinterpretations of the letters of Paul into the gospels, and the very words of Christ himself.

[@EmberBright2077]

Catholic being charitable to Protestant challenge: Difficulty - Impossible

[@eddardgreybeard]

@@EmberBright2077 What are we supposed to do, actually entertain the vain notion that Protestants are the first "Christians" in 1500 years to read the Bible and understand it? All the charity you can expect is being corrected and offered a return to communion.

[@EmberBright2077]

@@eddardgreybeard I rest my case.

[@eddardgreybeard]

@@EmberBright2077 It's not impossible if it's charity

[@housecry]

Ideally it would be better to have you both sit down with each other in a live format not as a debate, but a dialogue. It would be best to include the input of other Christians who maintain the practice of praying to the Saints. Include Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian etc. What do their sources say? Have the sources in plain sight for all to see.

[@sk8board3111]

Really starting to question whether Gavin actually debates in good faith argumentation.

[@stooch66]

I have always questioned that. I try to give the judgment of charity, but he keeps pulling moves that support the assertion he is only arguing to win.

[@shadowsteppah]

He does not.

[@nicklowe_]

It’s a shame people really think Gavin argues in bad faith. I’ve never seen anyone in any context argue in better faith than Gavin. It’s hard for me to believe you can watch Gavin and come to the conclusion he argues in bad faith, it would lead me to believe that people with this opinion have never actually watched him in his own words. I’m not Christian, I just like theology; so I’m really not biased in favor of either side. But it’s sad to hear this because he clearly works very hard to be as fair as possible.

[@sk8board3111]

@@nicklowe_ I watched him quite a bit for a while and then I converted. I’m very familiar.

[@nicklowe_]

@@sk8board3111 Do you doubt the sincerity of many people you watched pre-conversion? Or Gavin specifically?

[@franciscoguzman1065]

Prottys usually find some cherry picking with the church fathers without context lol. They where not Protestants everyone knows this.

[@Mkvine]

Gavin should have done his homework. He clearly doesn’t understand Origen’s theology. He should also stop being so impulsive to respond to any video about him. Do the research first Gavin.

[@R.C.425]

Thank you, Joe

[@HumanDignity10]

I thought I commented earlier, but I don't see my comment now. Maybe it was too long, so let me just give a hearty thank you to Joe for such a thorough and well reasoned rebuttal to some serious accusations made by Gavin.

[@sentjojo]

Gavin Ortlund often responds to arguments, especially biblical arguments, with just a passing "I'm not convinced by that" and hand waves it away. He also took Joe's first podcast very personally as criticism.

[@MrPeach1]

yeah he does that. But go look at the comment sections on his videos people think that's a valid rebuttal tactic.

[@timrichardson4018]

If you asked an early Christian what to believe or do on a matter on which the scriptures are silent, their first appeal would be to what the apostles said on the matter. If there is silence there, their next appeal would be to what the successors of the apostles say on the matter.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

"their next appeal would be to what the successors of the apostles say on the matter." Protestants have tried hard to make the Early Church Fathers protestant. Doing so fails every time. Mike Kruger does the same is book, the Canon Revisited. He cites Catholic Bishops over and over trying to make his case that the Church just knew what was scripture. Yet these bishops, over and over, don't agree at all with Mike's theology. ALL believed for example in the Eucharist being the Resurrected Christ. Nothing symbolic only. All believed in baptism being salvific as scripture teaches (1 Pet 3 21, others). None held to baptism delayed to the age of reason. Non taught Sola Scriptura nor Sola Fide ( Ja 2 24). They have a big problem and know it as the silence to their beliefs is causing educated protestants to seek the Catholic Church.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@TruthHasSpoken We aren't trying to make them protestant. There are times when they do agree w/ certain protestant doctrine and don't agree w/ yours. You just deny it. This is yet another time. Origen was not for prayer so dead saints. He made very strong statements that prayer is only offered to God.

[@Danaluni59]

@@saintejeannedarc9460I would suggest that many self-styled Protestant scholars do impose their beliefs onto the Church Fathers and look for proof texts to support their preconceptions rather than try to read the fathers in pure context. Actual Protestant scholars who read them in context generally become Catholic scholars in short order.

[@takmaps]

Thanks for another good video.

[@John_Fisher]

I'm enjoying the discussion. I think you guys should take Trent's principle on rebuttals to rebuttals and see if there's an opportunity to get together and talk through the topic.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

It doesn't matter what color shirt Gavin Ortlund wears, his teachings are not Biblical or Historical! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@Wgaither1]

I found a lot of errors in the CCC. Who do I report those errors to so they can be corrected?

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@@Wgaither1 the elders found a lot of errors in Jesus's teaching as well! Please provide these alleged errors? Best of luck to you! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@stananders2333]

​@@Wgaither1do you two know each other? I notice you were one of very few who replied to his comment and added some additional detail about him, his schooling by a 3rd party, if i recall correctly

[@timrichardson4018]

On the view that Catholics (medieval or modern) go to Mary because she's more approachable, I think there can be a sense in which that is a valid and good view to have. Not in the sense that God is unapproachable, but in the sense that God is our ultimate aim and thus Mary is closer to God and we farther away. On the path of salvation (to God), we are at point A, Mary and the saints at point B, and God is point C (A being starting point, B closer to destination, C being the destination). All intercessors in that position draw us closer to God by means of their righteous prayers and their example that we follow. Because they are human like us, they are more approachable in that sense. And because they are closer to God, they draw us closer to God. Therefore, Mary being "more approachable" in a sense is precisely what the intercession of the saints is all about. It's about the whole Church drawing it's members closer to God.

[@bengoolie5197]

A lot of verbal gymnastics must be employed to skirt the issue that Gavin is more than a bit of a fibber.

[@Danaluni59]

I think he is actually lying only to himself, buying into his own narrative while ignoring or denying anything factual that contradicts it. I see the same phenomenon in socialist circles where they construct a paradigm to buy into and throw all of their faith and ambitions into, then have a zealous defiance of anything that contradicts their belief structure.

[@lyterman]

Been looking forward to this since seeing Gavin's response. Before watching the video, I thought Gavin's was misleading after I read the relevant portion in Origen. Yes, Origen says pray to God alone, but he is contrasting that to appealing to evil rulers. He isn't making some Protestant statement that the saint in heaven cannot hear our appeals for intercession. Looking forward to seeing if you thought the same!

[@kellyedington8716]

Oooo, man I can't get nuthin done. Thanks Joe! 😂

[@brujachingona2175]

I enjoy all all of your videos, but had to 😂 @ the Anne Frank reference. Where did she get that ball point pen?

[@jamessral-subclassact]

He also got very upset and accused you of taking short clips out of context and then in literally the same minute pulled-out seconds long clips of your video completely out of context. I don't think he's being intentionally dishonest, but it was, at best, sloppy hypocrisy on his part.

[@dirtdog1097]

Yes totally !

[@fantasia55]

I think Gavin is intentionally dishonest.

[@ggarza]

To be fair to Gavin and his Evangelical colleagues, much of their seminary training waves away the entire ante-Nicean period as influenced unduly by Paganism. There is a shocking lack of understanding or study of this period by Evangelicals, Gavin being the notable exception, of course.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

They believe as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists believe: - The Church became corrupt after the last apostle died - The Church didn't even know it lost the true faith - The Church taught error universally ... and a LOT of error - A Great Apostasy - occurred. - Still the Church, without inspiration, knew without error, which writings belonged in the New Testament (27 out of 300+ early Christian writings) at the same time it greatly errored. - Jesus was unable to keep his repeated promises including to lead his Church - the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth, to ALL Truth. - Someone had to restore the "true faith" 1500 - 1800 years later.

[@ggarza]

@@TruthHasSpoken Agreed. Baker Academic, IVP Academic and Baylor University have done some good work producing the Ancient Christian Commentary. However, these are notable by exception. It is progress, however.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@TruthHasSpoken We just don't believe in a perfect church, that can't ever teach error, as you do. That isn't biblical. Even though you think protestants are the only ones wrong all the time, the reformers still agreed on the NT canon, and didn't change it. So even the fallible people get it right sometimes. We don't think we are the perfect end of the church, that have infallible doctrine. You're the only ones that think that.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 " the reformers still agreed on the NT canon" They were inconsistent for sure. "We don't think we ... have infallible doctrine." Which gives hope that you'll realize your bible is missing 7 inspired writings of the Old Testament .... declared to be not scripture by those "reformers," hope too, that you'll believe that all those Bishops who declared your New Testament canon, were 100% right in believing that the bread and wine through their words of consecration transformed into the Resurrected Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, as Jesus himself says: _This is my body._

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@TruthHasSpoken I know, you keep hoping we'll all just realize how perfect you guys are, how your church has all the truth and how we just need to fall into line and let the Catholic church rule the world again. That would be a disaster. It was a disaster before too, because church and state were joined, which Jesus was against. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's".

[@danielcarriere1958]

Fantastic rebuttal video. Anyone know where the entirety of Origen's work on Prayer is? I can only find snippets here and there.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

The Curtis translation (which I think we both were using) is available in full both here (www.tertullian.org/fathers/origen_on_prayer_02_text.htm) and here (www.ccel.org/ccel/origen/prayer), although you need to flip chapters in the second one.

[@danielcarriere1958]

@@JosephHeschmeyer Fantastic! Thanks Joe!