Doom Eternal's Darkest Moment... (The TAG2 Controversy)

[@underthemayo]

I forgot to mention that the changes to TAG1 were largely reverted especially regarding UAC Atlantica which was by far the most affected level. The only real notable changes to remain are the removal of hidden tentacles and the change from possessed Baron to possessed hell knight in The Blood Swamps. Thank you to Kaiser for making the mock tutorial section! Join the Discord and meet more remarkable souls like yourself! discord.gg/29jbfwycDJ Mayo merch here! teespring.com/stores/underthemayo Support me on Patreon. patreon.com/underthemayo KZbin Memberships to my channel now available, click the "Join" button. Follow me on Twitch at twitch.tv/underthemayo.be/HCQ_N571VAA

[@brnclandonald]

Great vid, my dude! I'll be showing this to my autistic roommate who absolutely sux at Eternal. I think hearing and seeing will help him "get it" better than I ever could.

[@TheUltimateZMAN]

There actually is a new tutorial for tag1 and 2 they added sometime last summer.

[@scienceandmatter8739]

Ive never Played eternal because IT wanted to Live sign in account Something. But this CHANNEL ise awesome anyway. Tribvtes FROM Germany Europe

[@Handepsilon]

Speaking of that Hell Knight. I think the spirit bugged out again. My friend fought normal Hell Knight and possessed imp instead He's glad about it tho. He hated spirit vehemently ^^;

[@brnclandonald]

Update, he gets it now. Thanks Mayo.

[@SRGIProductions]

"The DOOM community will love and respect you until you do something they don't like, then they'll want to burn your house down" -Mick Gordon

[@Foebane72]

Yeah, there is a definite sense of entitlement and ARROGANCE to these people.

[@theusa2317]

@@Foebane72 Pretty sure thats every community (sadly).

[@RyanMK666]

Time for the doom community to rally against Bethesda and ID then in the Mick Gordon lawsuit.

[@keighne7650]

@@Foebane72 a definite sense for an indefinite group of people, funny how that works

[@tomsnowden6201]

That's kinda how it should be, it makes developers better and games what the consumer want..Except for madden they straight don't give a fuck and the community will keep buying their shit.

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

It's kinda nice that this is gonna be considered the "darkest moment" since it's pretty tame compared to a lot of other shitshows that have come out of modern gaming companies recently

[@ericdesjardins1854]

*cough cough Battlefield 2042

[@uhoh6706]

@@ericdesjardins1854 That game deserves its own category lol.

[@Khronik_]

@@uhoh6706 lets not forget the newest dead service game halo in(finite)

[@tablettablete186]

@The_great_User Live service!? But where is the updates!!!??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Khronik_]

@@tablettablete186 yeah thats why i called it a dead service game

[@quoerp4019]

I had never heard of the controversy before this video. I didn't realize that the dlc was controversial, and i didn't care to check because i found myself enjoying both dlcs after playing them recently. And I think I became a better player at the game after the dlcs, or at least the first one.

[@christianbeach5300]

exactly this "controversy" is just people whining because they have nothing better to do

[@BOZ_11]

@@christianbeach5300 but this video is part of the "whine". This is constructive criticism

[@jeffriesmovies]

Its controversial among people who have played like 1000 hrs of doom

[@SomeCowguy]

@@jeffriesmovies yeah, i still dont see why tho. I mean, once they can unm campaign tag1 and tag2, of course they wont see much challenge

[@chloewebb5526]

@@jeffriesmovies I'm 38, I've played way more doom than that lmfao

[@OnePolishMoFo]

I didn't realize there was a controversy at all with the expansions. I enjoyed them. There is a notable difference in difficulty between the first and second but it was fun regardless. My only criticism of Eternal is the constant locking the player in an arena and forcing them to kill all the enemies. I like those moments. I just wish there were less of them. I prefer the switch and key hunt of the classic Dooms. But that really comes down to personal taste than an actual criticism.

[@Who-Uhm-Cares]

The boss was horrible in the expansion

[@Ashurion-Neonix]

I personally find the arena's to fit Eternal's gameplay loop better. I also understand why the levels were linear, but I do think it could've been cooler to have a few more split path levels like blood swamps. I don't think classic style keyhunting would work too well, but I do really like the idea of having more levels with keys since the only real revisiting on non-split levels is the very start of UAC Atlantica.

[@newuser689]

@Jhon 117 op’s comment didn’t mention the boss. Please re-read.

[@mightquinnable]

Right🤣 Like wait what “tag 2 is easy” I got my ass kick by both DLCs

[@ollytherevenant1653]

@@mightquinnable tag2 isn’t easy for the average player, just a step down in intensity and difficulty from TAG1 which feels off

[@leowulf5280]

Doom Feels like a franchise that would benefit a lot from modes where difficulty effects not just damage but also enemy placement and variety. I don't know how hard that'd be to implement or balance but it really seems like the only way to satisfy such a broad player base.

[@Weldedhodag]

that actually was how the difficulty worked in the OG dooms, enemies just wouldn't show up to work if you were on easier difficulties

[@travisbewley7084]

Honestly the games stubbornness on ammo economy is the most baffling aspect. I now mod the game to give more ammo drops and my enjoyment has skyrocketed. I don't feel like anything from my enjoyment was lost. It's bizarre how this is not just an option in the difficulty setting. The directors of Eternal held such tight control over the players playstyles that something like these expansions we're bound to happen.

[@mr1spamification]

Right? that's what I was thinking. If something like the hammer can go from unfun and OP for skilled players to fair and satisfying by just doubling its acquirement requirement, then something so simple could have just been an added tweak in a difficulty setting. Clearly a lot of these issues could have been solved by just having the difficulty settings be more layered, and maybe a pop-up window in DLCs for casual players that recommend they start on the easiest difficulty and ramp up as they get more comfortable, where's the hardcore players would never even dream of lowering the difficulty below nightmare for their first playthrough. Even if it results in one difficulty almost feeling like an entirely other game from just 2 difficulties up, still seems like that's the best path to pleasing everyone.

[@ollytherevenant1653]

@@travisbewley7084 it’s not really bizarre that there isn’t an option for it, because it would dampen the experience the devs were going for, which was encouraging diverse use of the arsenal. I can understand not liking that aspect, but I don’t think it’s much of a surprise the devs wanted the game experience they wanted to be able to be turned off because many players would have utilized that option and never developed an understanding of the ammo economy.

[@travisbewley7084]

@@ollytherevenant1653 and I think that mindset is short-sighted. It's weird to see a triple A developer make such a rookie move. Wanting to contract your players into one specific style of play despite easily being able to allow for a bigger variety of play is such a big bummer. My enjoyment of the game was vastly improved when I used mods to fix the ammo economy. Still not as good as 2016 Doom but much better.

[@kida4313]

The darkest moment was definitely their treatment of Mick Gordon

[@charlesqbanks]

So true.

[@Leonhart_93]

Wasn't that at least partly because of Mick Gordon himself? I remember they made public how the whole interaction with him went.

[@huyphan2005]

It was the head of id Software, he played Mick dirty by being vague about the contract whilst pushing unrealistic standards with unreasonable amount of time to finish. The payment was barely cover any works that he done for them, they even credited other artist for his work. Mick step away and enter the undisclosed legal battle.

[@perspicacioussimpleton7288]

I strongly recommend you look at Mick's official statement if you haven't already.​@@Leonhart_93

[@mh287]

Uhm no, they didn't pay in time, or at all for another ip and used that as leverage, used content that they​ told him wasn't fit for the game essentialy using his shit for free, defamed him and made everyone think he was lazy when in reality they overworked his ass and still delivered a trophy wining ost( they kept the awards away from him btw) overall the man is I a saint at some point I would have started sending them fart noises and fx straight out of loony toon @@Leonhart_93

[@hicksdillon]

I played DOOM Eternal a year after it's release with all the DLC already included. Playing TAG 2 felt like a nice breather after getting the shit beat out of me in TAG 1. But the Dark Lord boss fight frustrated me so much that I didn't even finish it and just started playing the master levels instead.

[@matthewgagnon9426]

The hardest part about the Dark Lord was mostly that at launch he'd heal to full if he so much as scratched you with an attack. It made it a huge pain in the ass if you weren't fast enough at reading his attacks, even if he was pretty bad at killing you.

[@Zargex]

I had to watch full tutorial on how to beat him

[@josedorsaith5261]

@@Zargex Haha, me too. He whooped me a few times before that, though

[@Piqcked]

NOOB

[@anstorner]

for me he didn't spawn the dogs so i couldn't use the hammer for like 3 minutes sometimes.

[@Mark-fc7tu]

28:11 I think that most people can agree that the Dark Lord boss fight didn't have great design. It mostly ended up testing the player's patience due to a lack of ways to approach the fight, as stunning him with the hammer and then whittling away at the five health bars with the Mobile Turret was demanded due to a lack of other opportunities for damage. Especially due to the boss's ability to heal himself automatically. I remember feeling very annoyed and exhausted when I finally got the boss down to his last health bar. But overall, I did get some enjoyment out of TAG2 despite all of the mentioned issues with boss fight design and hammer implementation. 37:15 And yes, honest, open communication between different parts of a community is a very tricky endeavor, but it is a very important topic.

[@underthemayo]

Well you just skipped on right ahead didn't ya? lol

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@underthemayo He stops time to watch the video AND comment early, and make the comment meaningful

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

In my opinion Dark Lord should've been a culmination of all the bosses. Stage 1 is his normal self, except there are ways to get him out of the shield stage. In the second stage he acts like the Gladiator. In the final stage he climbs out of his cushy power armour and one v ones the Slayer. He has similar weapons and tactics, he can quickswap n shit. He has more health and speed to compensate for AIs error and bring it even closer to a true slayer v slayer. Also give him armour stripping like icon of sin

[@fuckso2342]

@@Breakaway-ic5gj Unfortunately DLC don't have the time or budget to make boss fights like that. I am sure Hugo and team had similar ideas but they had to cut corners. Imo Davoth should have been left as the next Doom game antagonist instead of DLC one.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

@@fuckso2342 They could've cut extra corners in the base game itself to afford this bossfight. A less than mediocre campaign but banger final boss is better than a mediocre campaign and less than mediocre final boss.

[@timewarpdino]

The super gore nest was the first master level I tried and made me think that all master levels were ridiculously hard.

[@VrodegTheGoblin717]

Same, I finished it twice on ultra violence and once on nightmare or the other way around, lol.

[@c1fi364]

​@@VrodegTheGoblin717 so you didnt do the master level challenges? you should the golden combat looks really good alongside the horde mode UN skin and/or the campaign UN skin.

[@VrodegTheGoblin717]

@@c1fi364 I did do em

[@dot2184]

@@c1fi364 I physically can't do it on Switch because my game always crashes when I reach the end, so I'll never be able to get the golden combat shotgun which would go really well with the Gold skin

[@Xtennsion]

@@dot2184 why are you playing doom eternal on a switch lmao, thats like playing baseball with a wooden bat

[@raptor5743]

A lot of respect for acknowledging your wrongs in this situation. I would agree that it was a bit too easy on launch, but if considered through the perspective of a more casual/less active player, it was refreshing to come back and have a decent challenge on Nightmare. I never maximized my usage of the hammer, and it bloated the difficulty of the DLC as a whole, just due to being rusty. I love Hugo Martin and the whole iD software team. I think they learned a lot, and considering the pressures of development during quarantine, these DLCs were still among the absolute BEST games to come out. Hope you also take the lessons from this and your content continues to improve as much as it has over the last couple years

[@joestack1921]

Yeah I forgot about the hammer entirely throughout my first (ultra violence) playthrough and I had a great time

[@imnothereforthefood7832]

Yeah I get that, and I understand why not to be actually upset or whatever But why dude, why do we care about casual players more than actual fans? I would maybe understand if Tag1 was the easy one But after getting so powerful and borderline mastering the game, AND the whole "power fantasy is earned" thing, tag2 was absolutely disappointing at launch It felt like it was made for marauder haters or game reviewers or ign fanboys

[@shrek1428]

@@joestack1921 same I kept forgetting the hammer was there and I had a pretty fun time. It did still feel a little easy though

[@NyoMurdi]

@@imnothereforthefood7832 As a regular Nightmare player I remember enjoying TAG2 a lot more than TAG1 on first playthroughs; I didn’t feel exhausted or worn out at times like I did during Blood Swamps and The Holt, and while TAG2 could have done with the patch it current has now at launch - I felt I could have fun more than in the first. TAG2 probably doesn’t stack up to multiple playthroughs like TAG1 but that’s where the World Spear master level really hits it’s stride as the best content in the game.

[@imnothereforthefood7832]

@@NyoMurdi yeah that's true, there was a few times in tag 1 where I actually got so frustrated I had to turn it off

[@thegrayinthefield8764]

For me the biggest mistake was the lore in TAG2. You've been playing doom all along with the general idea that the dark lord was the big bad guy who ruined everything, then in TAG2 the codex does a full 180 saying it was the maykrs and the father who committed betrayal. It felt like a plot twist happening for the sake of it.

[@Kn1ghtborne]

This is my only problem with the dlc. The lore just felt like it was doing too much. The difficulty plunge didn't feel too bad I was just underwhelmed with the Darklord.

[@HeroOfTheHolySword]

@@Kn1ghtborne Same. I was expecting the final boss of literally the Doomslayer's story arc to be much more of a classically demonic entity. The Hell Nobles being literally just little evil people, the final level of Hell being red Makyr tech, and the Dark Lord being a guy in a mech felt really underwhelming. Like, sometimes the expected thing can still be awesome, guys!

[@Kn1ghtborne]

@@HeroOfTheHolySword I completely agree and truth be told direct predictable awesomeness works for Doom A long time ago I called the Icon Of Sin boss fight long before the game came out but it did exactly as I suggested and I couldn't be more hype. The dark lord being the real God felt unnecessary

[@Cobbster92]

The lore became way too self-important. Why couldn't they just let the Doom Slayer be a really angry guy without any divine superpowers?

[@HeroOfTheHolySword]

@@Cobbster92 Divine Superpowers aside there were parts I didn't mind personally? Like, I won't lie, I REALLY dug him joining a He-man-Esque hi-tech barbarian warlord commune and becoming a fucking Master of the Universe.

[@Harzexe]

The biggest controversy for me was and still is a conflict between id Software and Mick Gordon. Game suffers a lot by not having official soundtrack avialable to buy or to listen to through streaming services. For many people soundtrack by Mick was one of the main reasons they bought the game. TAG 2 is not perfect but it's still a great dlc and I wouldn't even call it a controversy 😅

[@ElGitarico]

I thought this video is about that

[@WolfTamer]

I'm more disappointed that we never got a soundtrack for the DLC. UAC Atlantica and World Spear's super heavy fighting themes, I would argue, hit as hard or sometimes even harder than the base games music!

[@saerenlawliet2756]

Wait there was a disagreement between Mick and Id software? That's why I can't find the bloody soundtrack anywhere ?? What happened

[@PJ-oe6eu]

​@@saerenlawliet2756 If I remember it right iD and Mick had a verbal agreement and Mick started making music. Halfway done iD goes back on their word. This is all according to Mick so there is some bias. Things might've come to light since i last heard about this too so better if you just find a video on the controversy yourself for a more informed take.

[@zeromech1450]

​@@saerenlawliet2756to make a VERY long story as short as possible they tried to cheat mick. And people can say thats a biased take but I don't agree. If you go through all the context and information it's pretty clear it's the truth. They didn't pay him for over half the music in the game and they didn't pay him for 11 months straight. Mick slept under his desk trying to reach ridiculous deadlines. He wasn't even under contract to produce a soundtrack when PREORDERS FOR THE SOUNDTRACK WENT LIVE. He wasn't guaranteed to be paid for a soundtrack until 1 months before it was supposed to release. So he did as much work as he could. Chad mossholder had done the rest over 6 months earlier because they did not tell Mick they had a backup composer working on the soundtrack. It's just one toxic move after another. And because of this the soundtrack is stuck in legal hell. It can't go anywhere. It can't be released anywhere.

[@Ardeact]

When you deliver something so great, people expect the next thing to be greater. TAG is just that, it's not as good as Doom Eternal, but it's still far greater than what other games companies call DLC.

[@mjc0961]

I really just don't get why they didn't save the TAG ideas and just make a third game instead of these two DLCs. It wouldn't have had to be so rushed feeling, and we could have had a proper final boss fight instead of them having to whip together what they could from Doom Eternal mechanics.

[@Ardeact]

@@mjc0961 yeah the last boss was terribly easy and unoriginal, for someone as the dark lord, kinda weak

[@ollytherevenant1653]

I think TAG1 was on par and if not better than the base game (but for different reasons) sure it doesn’t have the progression or breadth of content of the base game, but that’s what makes it special. It’s balanced and curated for post game slayer, an extension of the intensity and ferocity of the base game. My only real complaints are the music in the Holt being kinda forgettable, and the Samur boss fight feeling like you’re fighting his minions more than him. Minor nitpicks, but yeah I loved it. Part 2 is still decent but it feels like a rushed conclusion and a step backwards in terms of its intensity which feels jarring coming off of tag1

[@mrdinosaur7690]

Honestly thats what gets me, the DLCs basically wrapped up the story. Like i know Doom isnt about the story but it felt cheap that everything the base game built up to was quickly resolved.

[@ollytherevenant1653]

@@mrdinosaur7690 yeah it was really absurd to wrap up the story arc in a dlc that like 10% of players will play.

[@nikik5567]

12:00 this is exactly what happened to me…and it’s why I never finished TAG 1, I didn’t hate the dlc, I just felt it was tuned more for the hardcore guys and that wasn’t me. I work too much to dedicate so much of my time to a single game.

[@J0eMega]

Yeah, I wouldn’t be mad if the difficulty was always like that, or if this were something like a dark souls game. Those are games you go in expecting the insane difficulty. However, doom eternal wasn’t one of those games and TAG1 just felt like getting blindsided.

[@risingrevolt]

Yeah honestly it was more geared players who mastered the base gameplay instead of people who wanted the power fantasy just rewarded to them. I think in the end its really was casuals fault for buying the dlc thinking that was just gonna be more of the same. As someone who never played the difficult mods and hadn't played doom eternal months after release I found tag1 very hard at first but once I relearned all the basics I found it very fun

[@J0eMega]

@@risingrevolt there is literally no reason to believe the dlc would have been any different, for a casual player. Wtf are you on about?

[@Oatmea1L]

@@risingrevolt why should a dlc be harder that casual players who beat the base game can't even get past the first level on I'm to young to die?

[@hellothere7318]

@@risingrevolt you’re implying gamers have deserved power fantasies. You think skill in a single player game grants you some sense of superiority?

[@slavic_salad6180]

i remember when i came back to tag1 after not playing for a while, i got smacked and killed instantly, but i didnt complain but i just replayed it over and over again until my muscle memory came back and boom fell in love with the game, same happened with tag 2.

[@TheBeansprout]

In retrospect people like me, over reacted. I realised how stupid my reaction was and yes while I wish it would have been harder it was definitely not bad. It’s been a great 2 years everyone! Edit: balls

[@BrochachoTheBro]

nuts, even

[@Diesel_Budgie]

@@BrochachoTheBro Great meaty underslung ghonkers

[@TheBeansprout]

@Purified Water II literally all of my videos are recorded on nightmare

[@DbladeMedic]

@Purified Water II lmao nice sarcasm bro i almost missed it

[@MeatSnax]

I think high level players in general should not expect designers to cater to them. It's easy to think that you're the main supporters of the project, but in reality most people spent the same amount of money on Doom Eternal whether they played through once, or never stopped. There are speedruns, challenge runs, multiplayer, and mods to increase the skill ceiling, and it seems like the hardcore community still prefers Horde Mode to anything produced by Id. Casual players only have the designers, maybe some mods for games without a difficulty select. Master levels are an exception, as it's not new content for anyone who hasn't mastered the mechanics. I just think it's a little silly to want Doom to be the most intense shooter on the market, it's one of the most famous IPs of all time, everyone who plays games know about Doom. They can cater to the hardcore players who will squeeze every drop of blood out of the game, but releasing 2 unapproachable, tough as nails DLCs would have probably hurt the next game in the series quite a bit.

[@ExaltedUriel]

I know it's an entirely different beast but it reminds me of raiding in Final Fantasy XIV. People who hardcore raid always complain about how few high-end raids there are, that some of the gear you get from them are reskins of already existing gear. But when you remember that the vast, VAST majority of XIV's playerbase are supercasuals who only play for the story and maybe leveling jobs or other side activities, _and_ that despite basically printing money for Square the FFXIV team is underfunded and undermanned, it makes total sense that they would focus their resources on areas of the game other than the one only a niche fraction of the playerbase engage with.

[@MeatSnax]

@@ExaltedUrielyeah there's a whole culture of being able to squeeze more content out of a game, but sometimes the game is just over.

[@calvinm1866]

Agreed. These elitist players are entitled.

[@N7SpecterElite]

These are the same players that will beat a game completely on the hardest difficulty within mere hours of its release then take to the forums or KZbin to cry about how it's too easy.

[@ДюсековИльяс]

Did you see the video? They were catering to the hard-core fans for all time before tag 2. So it is expected that they will continue doing it. It was just out of nowhere for them to be supporting mostly the hard-core fans, but then suddenly the last dlc is made easier for casuals. And they even fucked that up. As tag 2 was still too hard for them.

[@Hypo_Thermic]

Excellent video! You explained everything surrounding TAG2 a lot more eloquently than I could. I like the two quotes you compare at 41:40 and how you summed up the controversy at 38:02

[@drabnail777]

All i got from the video was a bunch of sweat lords complaining

[@antont4974]

My only real complaint are the bugs in dlcs. I genuinely had softlocks and overall weirdness

[@anecro]

I still hope that gets improved honestly, even if it seems unlikely now

[@whoisanarnb]

that fucking wolf in world spear haunts me. months of waiting and replaying the same few parts hoping its fixes itself. that fucking arena (this is the one with the screecher demon introduction) is engraved into my head

[@drabnail777]

These try hards mad that they sacrificed their life playing a sweat lord mod, and angry that devs didnt release a similar cock and ball torture to the general public in dlc..

[@vomErsten]

I still get that in both Doom 2016 and Eternal, it's incredibly frustrating.

[@tarrker]

Interesting. Did you play on console? I'm on PC and honestly didn't run into any problems. When Doom Eternal first came out the game crashed the first time I tried to use the monitor that lets you play the original DOOM and DOOM 2. Hasn't done it since, tho.

[@J0eMega]

You definitely hit the nail on the head with the experience of TAG1 with casual players. I got absolutely destroyed. I just like to kick back, relax, and feel like a God for a bit before moving on with my day, and that dlc kicked me in the nuts right out of the gate. I struggle heavily with marauders. Weapon switching seems way more difficult on console than pc, and those stupid dogs make it hard for me to focus on killing the marauder, and they soak up my ammo, so that once I get to the marauder, I got nothing to throw at him. And when you enforce switching mods and grenades on top of all that, after such a Haitus, I basically left the game entirely, as I wasn’t interested in heavily investing myself to be super skilled. Plus a lot of the difficulty additions seemed out of place, especially for TAG2. Like I get why they made the rock imps weak to the auto shotgun. I get it’s an underused mod that needed to see some light, but rather than buffing it or adding some cool effects, it kinda just felt like they were putting their foot down and saying “now you have to use this whether you like it or not”. Plus lore wise, it didn’t make much sense… why would they be specifically weak to the auto shotgun mod? It’s just a fast shooting shotgun!!! Such a weird weakness that made no sense besides adding the illusion of attractiveness of the lesser used shotgun mod. I didn’t mind the hammer as I suck at breaking weak points anyway, so 2 didn’t feel overwhelming. I was just mad that they took away the cool crucible sword. However, I was completely unaware of the community backlash. You’re right, from an outside perspective, the community does appear to be full of nutcases until you explained the sentiment. I’m glad to hear you were able to look back, self reflect, and learn from your rash behavior.

[@ryang2v]

Honestly I agree completely, although I didn’t have the problem with TAG1 being to hard for casual players because I bought TAG1 and 2 right after I beat the campaign because I played it more recently. The stone imps were also pretty dumb because they were chainsawable even though they were “stone”.

[@chloewebb5526]

I'm on PC and have issues with movement, aiming is simple here. Every single finger on the left hand is in total chaos in any game using a lot of movement and abilities, ESPECIALLY if you only have a 2 button mouse with one scroll wheel... I need a new mouse....

[@MrCmon113]

Isn't there like 5 difficulty levels? At that point there should be a suitable one for casuals and heavily invested players.

[@J0eMega]

@@MrCmon113 you can have 20 difficulty levels, but that wouldn’t matter if they’re all very difficult for the casual player, or not challenging enough for the average diehard lol. I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking here.

[@indiana47]

I'm in the same boat, weapon swapping is hard for me on console and I have the same marauder problems.

[@forehand101]

I am so utterly confused that people found TAG2 easy, but maybe it just was for PC players. Console (at least for me on the XboxOne) was insanely difficult; very precise aiming is basically non-existent (hitting weakpoints is much more difficult), weapon combos exist, but really don't because you HAVE to use the weapon wheel to switch, and just difficulty wise it jumped up a lot. I mean I got Ultra-Nightmare on the Story a few weeks after the game released, TAG1 was more difficult and I've only gotten Nightmare, but TAG2 had me rage quitting on fucking "I'm Too Young To Die" because how much more difficult it was to keep up with combat on a controller. I will admit my skill probably had a good part in this too, but it was still many, many times more difficult than any other part of the game. I shit you not, it took me 3 times to beat the Dark Lord, but it took over 2 hours... the first two times I'd die, but then I finally got a feel for him and I'd almost kill him, then he'd like get all the health back and repeat FOR OVER AN HOUR before I finally fucking got it.

[@parallax8207]

Wait. You are a ultra nightmare player the found In too young to die in TAG hard ? There is definitely something wrong here

[@j.1759]

This dude's trolling. If you can play campaign and TAG1 regardless if it's on controller, you could play TAG2 just fine.

[@forehand101]

@@j.1759 I just couldn't, TAG2 was just insane on console. Maybe I just couldn't master the movement and playstyle of the game enough because it was so much more difficult than TAG1 and the base game for me. Have you played the console version? Did you find TAG2 easier than the others?

[@levyata8964]

@@forehand101 I played it on a PS5 with the haptic trigger shits that make it a bit more painful. Finished campaign on Nightmare getting 100% completion. Did the super gore nest Master Level "Classic mode" on Nightmare. That was harder than the DLCs. That's all I gotta say. I have no idea why you can beat campaign at Ultra nightmare but not the dlcs

[@JamesDM4]

@@levyata8964 casual gamer her. I've done tag1 and to me it was the same has the base game. But tag2, I've never finished the first mission .

[@jonathanbrockway5861]

My lord, has it been a year already? I remember seeing your original TAG2 video and then wondering why I couldn't find it to re-watch later. Respect to you for taking a breath and re-evaluating - we've all said things in a moment of annoyance that we didn't really mean 100%!

[@brute6896]

bro I still can't believe it's been around 6 years since Doom came out

[@maccamachine]

@@brute6896 nah it’s been over 20 years since doom came out 6 since doom 2016

[@ZEBRACOW13]

With the way that Hugo and the crew at ID took in the fanbase feedback and used it to change the game to cater to basically everyone all at once and added so many fixes and more features for free without any cost…they will always be my favorite when it comes to game devs. One of the few who’s not in on the money hungry mess of an industry we’re dealing with these days.

[@haustyl12]

Unless it involves paying Mick Gordon

[@Alpha_beef]

@@haustyl12As far as I can tell, I think their hands were kinda tied with that :/

[@TheBatman39]

​@@haustyl12 That was on Bethesda

[@HorrorManMike]

Playing Doom Eternal as I listen to this video! My only real complaint with TAG 1 & 2 was the Dark Lord fight. I summed it up to my partner (who has watched me play 2016 and Eternal since their releases) with the phrase: "This isn't a test of my skill. This is a test of my patience."

[@umbeon]

What seems to be forgotten is that ID like any other gaming software company has a bottomline that they must please in order to show profit. I've been watching the debates and feel that ID is attempting to balance two different levels of strategies at the same time. No one will be completely satisfied in the end. No matter what you may feel about creating a harder experience for more experience players ID has to bring in new players in order to stay in business. Especially now since the Microsoft purchase they will have to show profit. It has just become more competitive, the emphasis will be on what makes more sense when it comes to dollars. ID is trying to do their best in a fast changing environment, and I believe they have done a great job so far. ID has been more than generous with their community. They seem to listen and make changes when necessary. Thank goodness they aren’t under EA’s umbrella.

[@fuckso2342]

I think ID software for their next game needs to make different difficulty levels more distinct in their next game. The hardest difficulty should not just have harder and faster enemies but harder enemy spawns, more enemies in the map, scarcer resources, etc... The price to pay for this though would be you cannot change to hardest difficulty in the middle of playthrough anymore.

[@DieWeltIstSchlecht]

@@fuckso2342 I agree. I did not get the feel for Eternal, and I would have liked it if the easy mode would have been just run and gun without weakspots 9n enemies. And for the hardcore players add the super ultra mega nightmare mode with what you said. Everyone is happy. Hardcore players buy it, casuals like me buy it. Win-win.

[@keonkla]

@@fuckso2342 That would be amazing for the next doom game.

[@hfc2x]

You really don't know how Microsoft works in this regard, because they basically do the opposite. They don't really care if id Software doesn't show profit, because in fact, their Xbox division bleeds money and they don't care, because they make so much money from other avenues, it's like a tiny inconvenience. Microsoft actually mostly makes money out of their Gamepass subscription on the Xbox front, but on the broader, their actual profits as a corporation come from their web services, such as Microsoft Azure. Even Windows is such a tiny fraction of their profits, they give it away for free in some countries. This is why people see the acquisition of Activision-Blizzard as a good thing, not just because under the Microsoft umbrella the situation for employee crunch and abuse is expected to get better, but also because it will take away that predatory model most gaming corporations follow, where they expect to show more profits to investors each year, no matter at what cost. They only bought Zenimax (and now Activision) to prevent other tech giants like Google, Facebook or Amazon to get into the gaming space and have the power to decide if they allow games from companies such as id Software to show up in their competitors' platforms.

[@umbeon]

@@hfc2x So far Microsoft has allowed game developers to do their own thing. Only time will tell

[@MrBawa480]

For me (someone who went into the DLC immediately after first finishing the game) the problem with TAG1 wasn't difficulty but tedium. It felt like every arena had way more waves than necessary. This doesnt exactly make it harder since each wave came only after you dealt with the previous one, but it did really ruin the pacing for me, which is why I lowered the difficulty by one step just to make it a bit quicker

[@sissichu]

I'm late to the partyy. I just managed to beat the main campaign on UN and then played the DLCs on Nightmare. Will probably try to beat them on UN later on. My problem with TAG1 is that they took away one of our tools (the Crucible Blade) and gave nothing in return. The Support perks are just passives. They don't really make you play any differently. And then like you said the arenas didn't feel as good as the original ones. They were more claustrophobic and had too many demons to my liking. It kinda felt like that they didn't know what to add to the game to make it harder, so just said "Fuck it, send all the demons!". TAG2 felt more balanced to me. Yes it was way easier but it wasn't frustrating. It seems I actually liked the Dark Lord. It felt like a dance with an opponent that is equal to the Doom Slayer since you can't just slide past his defenses. Though for the amount of phases he had something more different would have been nice.

[@WAcrobat19]

Tbh, I think TAG 2 was okay. What I really disliked was that it just finished the hype of meeting the devil so damn early

[@fuckso2342]

You never know the story in these games are already batshit insane. They can bring him back in the next Doom game and have a legit better boss fight.

[@GameJunkyard11]

Davoth isn't the Devil. Hugo confirmed that the mysterious voice at the end of Urdak is someone even above Davoth. We are 100% getting another Doom game.

[@shawklan27]

Word the dlc felt rushed

[@ericdesjardins1854]

@@fuckso2342 Well if they are bring Davoth back, they better not pull a Disney Star Wars and bring old characters back just to bastardize their legacy.

[@LiberatedMind1]

@@ericdesjardins1854 The story is completely fucked already, even since the base game before DLC. They can do no more harm here.

[@KaiserAfini]

5:40 "It teaches you how to play the genre far better and can change your view of game design in general" That is how I feel about the original Thief series. Those games elevated your stealth skills, attention to detail and improvisation skills to the next level. I hope one day you cover them.

[@novaprime4831]

Hearing Hugo talk about the Dark Lord after TAG2's release really makes me want to see what the fight could have looked like if the devs hadn't been forced to make the DLC while working form home. I always really liked TAG2, it has some of my favorite arenas and art direction in the whole game, but I always thought the Dark Lord's fight was super anti-climactic and more frustrating/lame than it was fun.

[@doomslayer6771]

Yup

[@emirsuleymantanrkulu709]

I don't know you guys but its the entire Doom Eternal that is frustrating for me. Heck, even 2016 was like to hat to a degree but there was still joy of having a fresh new Doom entry, our childhood game, but once you understand Hugo Martin is a huge Warhammer 40k fan, and this sole fact is the only reason Doom went into this riding dragons and "hammering" aliens kind of irrelevant shitty way, it all makes you feel bad. And I am surprised we are the minority who thinks like that, there are still people who dislike Doom having shitty lore, but the hardcore player base that I know and I expect to be more vocal was silent, I really hated the idea DOOM guy is actually a demi-god who everybody is afraid of. I remember myself playing Doom when I was barely 6-7, and I crystal clear remember the feelings I had, not necessarily the feeling of playing a horror game, but still elements of horror and tense feelings, weird lights, demon growling background, gate sounds, lack of ammo, lack of health. feeling helpless, dying a lot, hear your death screem, start over... A lot of memories and nostalgia over repeating the same level, cool music that you will remember all your life... How many times I died in this new generation of Doom playing on Nightmare? Not plenty. Probably I would die a lot in Ultra Nightmare but its just because "I didn't doom dance a lot", not a tense helpless death, but tiring death.. I hope they make another doom game with retro graphics, retro shooting , doomguy face in the middle and send a love letter to players like I am. Make it 30 bucks, whatever. Just make me feel nostalgia and helpless again. All I remember from Doom 216 and Eternal is just Mick Gordon's godly work. I dont even remember any level besides some images..

[@TheBatman39]

@@emirsuleymantanrkulu709 Did you like Doom 3?

[@emirsuleymantanrkulu709]

@@TheBatman39 Not when it came out, but later in the years when I developed a better taste for FPS genre, yeah.

[@davidstinger1134]

@@emirsuleymantanrkulu709 If you developed a better taste in FPS you'd know Doom 3 is pure mediocrity. It gets outdone by FEAR in every way.

[@dino0075]

I overall enjoyed tag 2 except for the final boss I actually really enjoy marauder fights, they're tests of your reflexes and when they're put with other enemies, they can be tests of your management as well But the final boss is literally just a marauder with more hp, like, c'mon.

[@feedthemeat543f]

The biggest thing about it that still bothers me isn't the difficulty but rather how... barren some of the arenas still feel Like the escalation encounters aren't that difficult, but I can have fun with them since shits actually happening and the waves last longer than just killing a handful of demons.

[@beautifulmanstan8840]

This. If you're gonna make the levels easy to breeze through at least put in a lot of demons so we can have fun along the way and have it feel climactic. "Ooh nooo The Dark Lord is right there and I want to get to him" Shut the hell up, man. You can design combat so that it can be progressed through consistently with relative ease without just putting buttfuck nothing there for us to fight. Honestly if it just had a lot if demons but they balanced it out with more resources it could've been ten times better. Instead of cutting the demons within the walls of Immora in half, give us a beserk powerup and let us fuck up some posessed tyrants and shit. Put more meathook points in so we can traverse wide-open spaces easier... Actually use the new demons in a fun way, like the stone imps or the cursed prowler... I cannot believe that this combat experience came from Id software. Good combat is the backbone of Doom and without it you're just left with nothing. At least the world spear master level fixes like... 2/7 of the DLC. I love Id software but I'm just done excusing mediocrity.

[@jamescastle99]

Exactly! It seems that the actual problem isn't because id wanted to make the DLC easier but rather that they didn't have enough time to flesh it out. And a lot ot people really don't consider this (including this video).

[@hugomartin5642]

we did a combat pass last patch to all of dlc2 in any area that felt empty. give it a try;)

[@beautifulmanstan8840]

@@hugomartin5642 Key word: "Still". The combat changes introduced in update 6.66, while appreciated, were essentially trying to fill in a huge sinkhole with one bucket of cement. I know you guys tried. I know that Doom Eternal's engine is weird and really doesn't like it when you change things. I respect that. However, I, among many others, still feel that actual the amount of 'gameplay content' in those levels is severely lacking. Unlike the World Spear Master Level, which takes like a full two hours to complete on a good day. Now that's something you can get mileage out of.

[@LiberatedMind1]

@@beautifulmanstan8840 Lol that's not the real Hugo Martin, just a random guy.

[@Issalzul]

I'm one of the more casual players, I loved 2016 but eternal didn't feel like my cup of tea and that's okay! I knew some shit happened about tag1 and 2 but I was completely disconnected from it, thanks KZbin Algo for pushing this on me! It's also really good this had a happier ending than what would happen to most other games, hell it makes me curious enough to try the next iternation despite eternal not clicking with me Thanks for a great video!

[@TykonBlue]

Yeah TAG2 is one of those things i played through once and never played again. TAG1 and the base campaign are gold though!

[@vektor_z7208]

I love the first level of TAG1 and its battle music.

[@nomercy8989]

@@vektor_z7208 I love the downtime music in the Bloodswamp

[@onceyougozach2607]

Uac Atlantica and Blood swamps are my go to levels when I want to play, Ive probably loaded up Uac Atlantica hundreds of times

[@fuckso2342]

I really think its the maps in TAG2 that are a bit lacking. None of the maps are as memorable and epic as Uac Atlantica and Blood swamps.

[@KeifersIsAwesome]

On an opposing spectrum, I regularly replay base campaign and TAG2 and mostly avoid TAG 1 myself. I like being good at the game and getting good, but I don't like the overwhelming feeling if TAG 1. It hits my limit at the Holt and I have to force myself to slog through the last sections and the Samur fight.

[@GoodmansGhost]

Your description of a casual experience of TAG 1 matches my experience exactly. I felt like a god at the end of the base game but after almost a year I was rusty as hell. My reaction however was just "Yeah I'll probably wait with this until I feel like replaying the game from the start."

[@friendlytalbot4050]

You summed perfectly why I never completed TAG2: I couldn't get into the vibe of the Dark Lord boss fight. Too slow, too boring, and just regenerates damage. I'm not a great DOOM player, but I got through it on a high difficulty. I ended up being so bored with the fight, I just turned off the game, and I don't want to try fighting him again. I had to look up the ending online instead.

[@killertaze]

12:25 Amazing how right you are :D TAG 1 kicked the shit out of me because every point you did say befor...and i loved it! 2 hours on the same arena and finaly i got it done...i was so tired,fast breathing and happy. Adrenalin is a hell of a hormon.

[@iamtheyeti6663]

This is how I felt playing the blood swamps, it was crushing on release but my word it was enjoyable, so so enjoyable

[@ViviVoss]

I feel like in regards to difficulty, and whether the devs should make a more accessible experience for more casual players, or a more punishing experience for the more hard-core side of the fan base, the answer never needs to be just one or the other. The DOOM series has always had a variety of difficulty options for a reason.

[@themightymcb7310]

Eh, I think there is still a balance to strike. I don't think a casual player who beat the main game once on hurt me plenty should have to lower their difficulty setting to play the dlc because of a crazy difficulty spike. There should be some kind of curve and the hardest sections shouldn't be comparable to a bump in difficulty level. There should be a fairly consistent experience at each difficulty level between the main game and all of the expansions. I personally felt really blindsided by the possessed baron and the regular baron in Blood Swamps. I'm not sure a nerf down to a hell knight is what I would have done, but some kind of nerf to the arena definitely was needed imo. Maybe replace that second baron with another demon? A pain elemental or dread knight might work.

[@ViviVoss]

@TheMightyMcB Exactly! The point of my original comment wasn't really, " If the game's too hard, play on an easier setting." (Though that is always an option regardless). The point I was trying to get across was more so, "The contents of each campaign should be better balanced around which difficulty setting you chose at the beginning." For example, someone playing at the lower end of the difficulty spectrum should get a more consistent experience, in line with the base game's learning curve. Whereas a player who prefers a more punishing, hard-core experience should be able to get that challenge at the higher end of the difficulty spectrum.

[@dipanjanghosal1662]

@@themightymcb7310 No they absolutely should reduce their difficulty if they cannot handle the new challenges. Game too difficult? Just lower your difficulty goddammit. It hurts their fragile egos that much to lower difficulty when they can't manage higher difficulties? Jesus

[@themightymcb7310]

@@dipanjanghosal1662 The difference between each difficulty setting in Doom Eternal is stark enough that a player who made it all the way through the main story on uv only to get stuck in tag 1 would not be challenged by dropping to hmp. Sudden large difficulty spikes are hardly ever good game design and tend to turn off many casual players. It's not an ego thing, it's a "this game isn't fun anymore" thing. Too hard on the difficulty you've been playing, too easy if you drop down.

[@dipanjanghosal1662]

@@themightymcb7310 then that is something the game devs should have focused on so that lowering difficult doesn't make it too easy, instead of making the entire levels less challenging on uv

[@beeholddrbeesphbees378]

No longer doom eternals darkest moment.

[@LeagueOfMagnificentGaming]

Came here just for this comment :)

[@jacobmays1729]

For real, just a bunch of sweats complaining.

[@BobrLovr]

@@jacobmays1729 Did you not take away anything from the video? Why even watch it if you're not absorbing any information.

[@Kaiserwill]

Tag 2, while lacking in difficulty. Has done more for the combat loop in terms of additions than entire sequels for some games. With the growing PC mod sphere, I feel like everyone is now able to get the type of experience they want from the game. I hope ID continues to innovate with their next title.

[@ryang2v]

Lacking in difficulty? The dark lord boss was the hardest boss in all of doom eternal

[@Kaiserwill]

@@ryang2v As somebody who knows the game inside and out. Imo, the dark lord boss wasnt as hard as it was long. Also, as hugo himself said, it's easy to make something hard, but hard to make something balanced/fun. Also, the final boss does not change the fact that most encounters in TAG 2 were still quite easy.

[@Ghost_Text]

Yeh the Dark Lord was a slog but at the time I thought for low moments this was small beans compared to the damage glitch and nerf/buff issues in The Division 2.

[@ThePhantom9495]

At least for me, going into TAG 1 after finishing the base campaign felt...stressful? With every level I felt myself having less fun, after spending what felt like a week stuck on the last Slayer Gate (during the overcorrection as I've learned form this video) trying to learn new strategies, memorizing the spawns, completely remapping my controls again and again. Then, for just a moment, I became angry at a video game for the first time in years, and I had to ask myself "You're not having fun anymore, why are you doing this?" So I skipped the last gate, slogged my way to the final boss, but by then I was already burnt out. Ended up quitting the game, didn't touch it for a couple months, so I uninstalled. Haven't been able to work up the energy to play it since.

[@chbrosz]

Did you try lowering the difficulty?

[@WolfTamer]

What I don't understand is why do you complain about the slayer gate when they're meant to be incredibly difficult? The game explicitly says that they're "intense encounters" and completely optional.

[@brennangulka9793]

Honestly, I really enjoy tag 2 more than 1. The levels in tag 1 take really long to go through so it’s daunting to play casually. Tag 2 does have great combat in my opinion. The escalation encountered are really cool, all the levels have great personality in their arena design. The world spear have really big open areas, reclaimed earth has good claustrophobic arenas with lots of pressure, and immora has a lot of verticality.

[@hydroshock1853]

TAG 2 is a DLC I feel is widely underappreciated. The points are valid, but I feel it's too far to think those points end up souring the experience. To each to their own. But I think something that could have worked is if TAG 1 and 2 swapped difficulties. If TAG 1 had a lower jump in difficulty, it would have felt more natural, and the ultimate (non-master level) challenge would be saved until the conclusion. I felt TAG 2 was more challenging than the main game, but coming after TAG 1 makes it easy in comparison. Emphasis on "in comparison." Also, I think another reason I have felt more appreciative about these DLCs than what I have been hearing was because they are 2 parts to the same story. They're not meant to fulfill so much on their own. And single player DLC is something I'm thankful for after Doom 2016 was missing it entirely.

[@megan00b8]

This seems like it really comes down to the time pressure again. Players, publishers and others push on developers to put content out quickly, and when they give in to this pressure they may give us stuff half cooked. Let's be honest, they knew that the hammer was busted, they just didn't have time to teach players how to use it properly. They knew that dark lord was boring, but they didn't have the time to make a spectacle, hell, they even knew that TAG1 was too hard and TAG2 too easy, but they didn't have time to balance it properly. Now some may say that the players are at fault for pressuring the devs too much, some may say that the devs are at fault for giving in, and not delaying the releases to get the cake baked fully, but I personally think that most will agree that the fault is in the middle between both sides, pressured by the unfortunate circumstances of the real world, it wasn't if, it was when would something pop, but despite the obviously atrocious situation after TAG2, I must say I am proud of both sides for how quickly we got over it and started talking constructively. It could've ended up much worse.

[@jamescastle99]

Absolutely this. Most of Tag 2 problems came from not enough time to flesh out the ideas. It sucks that most people don't take this into consideration

[@DbladeMedic]

Yep, I fully agree with this. between the pandemic and the time crunch it prob didn't turn out like ID hoped. Man, what could've been without the pandemic!!

[@Vepzzzzz]

@@jamescastle99 how DARE my game developers not publish things exactly when *i* want it... for shame!! how could they want to make something good?!

[@polocatfan]

we're always telling devs to take more time and they never listen.

[@megan00b8]

@Dante Toshiro64 Memento Mori dear friend

[@bearb0ness]

"ultra nightmare" "comfortably" i have absolutely no idea how you could ever

[@AlexisHernandez-ys9yn]

Im still playing Doom Eternal... a few hours per week... is an excelente de-stressing game for me! And my favorite game ever!

[@peterludwig4599]

And that’s why Eternal will never top Doom. It is way to complex, it’s not go out there and kill demons. It’s all about strategy, the tactical understanding of your surroundings and ammo / armor management. It’s about mastering every inch of your immense arsenal and perfecting your skill to the maximum. For me they killed the fun I had with the originals and 2016. Eternal is amazing, but it is a completely different beast.

[@TheArthek]

The marauder sucked for someone playing the game through for the first time, the invincibility was annoying to play around. I know you mentioned your biases about it but someone who just fights them for the 4-5 times you encounter them in a normal campaign you don't have time to develop all those techs to easily kill them, they're just unfun because they kill the momentum of a fight with making you wait for an opening.

[@underthemayo]

Nope. Ive always found the change up with marauders to be fun since the first one.

[@Shaikoten]

This is really quite interesting to me. I'm an OG Doom community member since the 90s, more into deathmatch than SP on the original games but I've played my fair share of slaughter map WADs and the like and generally understand the community's desire for difficulty ramp. When I played 2016 and Eternal, enjoyed them quite a bit. TAG1 threw me for a loop though. I guess not being aware of the horde mode between the release of Eternal and TAG1 made all the difference, in an environment when we're extremely conditioned to expect mods to be widely available through Steam Workshop. Honestly it seems to have been a poor calculation to me. I played 75% of the way through TAG1 before I was just like "this is unpleasant" and gave it up. Anyways, I appreciate the analysis, and personally I would chock my inability to get behind TAG1, and subsequently not caring about TAG2 because of it, to the lack of Bethesda/Modern id's public support for mods. If they had released a proper SDK and things like Horde Mode were widely advertised and supported natively through Steam I likely would not have dropped off from playing the original release as quickly as I did. I guess we're all spoiled with the modern ability to get mods delivered straight to us through steam, and a developer's unwillingness to cater to that can cause someone to drop off from a game earlier than they would like to.

[@usuarionaoincluido7733]

tag 1 is like plutonia on nightmare and tag 2 its the tnt evolution team trying to make a squel to plutonia(context the tnt evolution expansion pack for doom is kinda shit)

[@sullysosavage365]

The design philosophy behind Doom 2016 reminds me of Kingdoms of Amalur. Make the prequel game that introduces the systems and then make the game you wanted to make from the beginning. Unfortunately KoA never got it's Doom Eternal...sad face

[@badgasaurus4211]

One day…

[@EZchzinpp]

After watching your ultra nightmare content, I've been fighting so hard to beat the game on ultra nightmare. Hearing that you have friends who can't complete ultra nightmare is so soothing to my wounded pride after failing at it for so long.

[@berengerchristy6256]

I beat the game on nightmare (except TAG 2) but there’s no way I could do ultra nightmare. I don’t have the time or patience for that

[@originalcynic]

Funny ive been binging a bunch of mayo vids and this popped up. Time yo fall asleep to the only game mayo has ever liked

[@underthemayo]

EVER

[@Cloperella]

Huh. Four years of me never understanding why this game turned out the way it was, but the explanation in Part 4 clarified what has been confusing me for so long. Eternal was not made for a general audience that wants to play a fun video game to have fun: it was made for the obsessive tryhards that will rate a game 0/10 if every encounter isn't a sweaty heart-palpitation inducing grindfest, that way they can gatekeep everyone who isn't as l33t as them. Thank you for making this video and unraveling this mystery for me.

[@eltiolavara9]

TRUE!!!

[@crazyd3m0n666]

Damn, I didn't even know or cared what the community thought about TAG2. I started hearing now when trying to find tips for UN. I loved all of the DLCs and everything related to Doom Eternal and I kept playing them again and again, never thinking that I felt 'betrayed', that it felt too hard or too easy. I was just amazed by the world, graphics, gameplay and was genuinely having fun. Yes the final boss in TAG2 felt like a marathon instead of an adrenaline inducing race, but I kept understanding the design, put myself in the devs shoes and looked at everything from the perspective they were trying to create. I immersed myself and didn't care about anything else. If I had listened to the community, I probably would've been as miserable as they are...

[@wade6523]

Out of all thr doom games I actually enjoyed Doom 3 the best. I had just massively upgraded my PC's graphics card. It was amazing to see.

[@206lbs.hercules5]

This is really interesting to me because I just recently played both the dlc's for the first time. As someone who is somewhere inbetween the casual audience and the "Ultra Nightmare PC Mod" players I actually preferred TAG2 significantly. Although the sentinel hammer was clearly overpowered and made the game significantly easier, I found it incredibly fun to use and it encouraged me to play in a way that I found interesting. I also loved the new enemies in TAG2 while in TAG1 I was fine with most enemies but hated the spirits. I think TAG2's enemies managed to shape combat in a fun way and although none of them were crazy difficult they were atleast fun to play around. I think this might show that the hammer and the enemies were created to be interesting to players around my skill level who engage with some of the complexities of the game such as weapon swapping or enemy specific weapon counters, but didn't engage with some of the more advanced stuff like alternative ways to kill marauders. Although the final boss of TAG2 does suck, there's no getting around that.

[@Shadykilla]

Doom Eternal as a whole goes against Doom principles, in Doom 1 you could finish arena fights without switching weapon or worrying about ammo, same with Doom 2, in Doom 3 Im nearly sure you could finish the whole game using only the shotgun. Doom had freedom in letting you play how you wanted. In the Doom reboot, although I haven't played it as much you didnt have to worry about ammo management that much then came Doom Eternal forcing you to play a certain way if you want to regen your ammo and health. Great improvement guys !

[@underthemayo]

Is this a joke? Sit someone down on ultra violence in Doom 1 for their first time and tell them they can't change weapons. Watch them completely run out of ammo.

[@Shadykilla]

@@underthemayo I said any encounter in Doom 1, point is ammo management isnt Doom, they always provided you more than enough so you could pick a fav

[@turian1moose]

The only thing that really bothered me about doom eternal, dlc included was the plot. It went so off the rails it's still hard to think about

[@levyata8964]

Samur Hayden being Samur Maykr was already a theory the community had so that didn't go off rails. As for everything else, Doom Marine started in 64 (and Doom 1 i think) but that's all. Those games didn't explain much so everything Id software is making is brand new. Of course its going to be different

[@grahamcarpenter5135]

How did it go off the rails?

[@hailbane9633]

Who really cares about the plot in a Doom game? Lets not act like 2016 plot was well written or that it was not as convoluted and crazy.

[@fuckso2342]

While the DLC went bit overboard I enjoyed Eternals plot. Its a like an 80s action movie.

[@charasmaticcritic1731]

@@hailbane9633 Woman deals with demons and doomslayer stops it Doomslayer is the doomguy and thebursbhdjdhsnshehdbdbdbdhehsnsdd

[@higglyjuff]

I didn't even know the DLCs got hate, and I thought they were both completely fine. My only disappointment was the lack of new tools. I was hoping they might add new weapons and while we got the hammer, which I thought was a really fun new thing that differentiated Part 2, I was hoping for a little more. Aside from this though, the locations are amazing, and I loved the extra bit of story. Overall, I think anyone that's screeching about this just needs to touch grass and have some realistic expectations. Usually the main course is better than the side dishes, and in this case, DOOM Eternal delivered with both.

[@LeroyJenkins781]

And don't forget during the development of even the ancient gods 1 they were currently also working on Doom the Dark Ages

[@thesamejackalsniperthatkil117]

that game wasn't even announced yet. hell, the concept of Dark Ages was probably nebulous in 2021

[@whenisdinner2137]

"Id software is one of the only developers that actually want to do something great?" This is the most unbelievably braindead line I've ever heard in my life. I agree with 99% of this video but to assume that people working at EA want to put out the games that they are forced to is ridiculous. Nobody ever wants to go into a project while making mediocrity. This is also a mindset that is incredibly hurtful to the people who are actually trying to make the games that you love to play. You people should be blaming the suits at the top that push these insane timelines onto the developers. Stop blaming the average developer. They are not in charge of the timeline or the project. They just work as best they can on what they're given the majority of the time.

[@underthemayo]

I don't know if I said AAA but I meant AAA. There are many small and indie devs doing wonderful things.

[@Gabriel-zy6xv]

@@underthemayo you missed his point. The developers of AAA titles also want the game to turn out well, however those in charge of the project dictate resource and time management and general game direction. Get some literacy ffs

[@GEB_Rosee_PPS]

@@Gabriel-zy6xv i do not believe that developers of Fifa or NBA 2k actually care about their games. i simply do not believe that.

[@underthemayo]

@@Gabriel-zy6xv it all comes down down management though. Those in charge. And a lot of AAA developers are run by people who don't care. When I say "developers" I'm talking about the entity and its management. Obviously the artists and programmers want the product to be good.

[@emperor223]

TAG1 took me 8 attempts on Ultra Nightmare while TAG2 took only one, it’s no mystery that 2 was easily superseded but after finishing did them I realise how underwhelming and non sweaty tag 2 actually was compared to 1.IG this is funny to me cuz on my first nightmare playthroughs of DLCs Davoth killed me many more times than Samur.

[@mikl0003]

Prefacing by saying I haven't modded doom but I was able to dry run no spoilers tag 2 on nightmare. I died once on the last level. Immediately did an ultra nightmare run right after and beat it. I expressed in the community that with my skill level I should not have been able to beat tag2 on ultra nightmare basically on my second try. I got flamed for it lol.

[@natman2939]

@@mikl0003 yeah beating doom eternal on ultra nightmare was a huge badge of honor for me Beating tag2 was just like “meh…” I don’t get her they’d do that

[@RisingJericho]

This situation with the bridge between casuals-enjoyers-hardcore-gods is something I see in the fighting game community a lot (there's a LOT of skill fracturing there). Oftentimes, the best way to balance a game like that isn't to make the game easier to let casuals enjoy more, or make it more complex for hardcore players to like more. The trick is to help the casual player reach hardcore players easier. I think the idea of mods could have been implemented by iD across the board to help boost the skills of all involved. Maybe as a free update, include maps that not only teach players the value of weapon switching/using the whole skillset, but how best to use it, and doing it in a controlled method, i.e. slowdown, matches with fast respawn, more access to resources, etc. That way you're coaching the new/returning players and you can let them catch up to even TAG1's difficulty much quicker.

[@salmon_wine]

Damn- as a fellow FGC member; I commend how accurately you described the whole phenomenon of devs destroying a game's skill ceiling in an attempt to lower the skill floor... Particularly, without even mentioning SSBM and the transition to Brawl!

[@WhiteInk47]

While I agree with this idea, I think TAG1 is very much not an organic evolution of the combat and difficulty design that a player could be coached up to. I adored the base game and didn’t enjoy TAG1. It wasn’t the difficulty but rather how it’s designed. In that way I don’t think coaching would help. If someone beat the base game and doesn’t like TAG1, I think it’s extremely clear that they simply just don’t like the design of TAG1

[@AYAKXSHI]

While this sounds good you forgot one major issue and it’s a big one it’s inputs especially with weak points on pc it’s easy to hit weak points but on controller (console) it’s an absolute nightmare

[@bronah6942]

Love how when I skip an ad now it just skips to the next ad not both

[@bradbee9874]

I played Tag 1 on ultra violence to completion. The irony is I dropped Tag 2 at the ending boss. He was boring to fight and his ability to regain health felt cheap.

[@hellishhybrid1839]

His health regain WAS cheap. It basically penalizes you for not playing perfectly. I got so irritated at the end boss of TAG2 that I threw on a trainer and made myself invincible, then wailed on him.

[@natew5593]

I’m one of those people who played Eternal quite a bit when it launched, then put it aside to play other games, came back and beat it again a year later and haven’t looked back. Recently came back for a 3rd run and I’m falling in love all over again. I’m giving TAG 1 and 2 my first run, am excited to see what all the fuss was about.

[@xyos7647]

It is mostly some people overreacting because the game is not exactly how they wanted it to be.

[@SilverWarrior95]

Tbh, i liked Doom 2016' bosses a lot more than Eternal's.

[@novustalks7525]

The second part of the dlc was a letdown. It didn't involve samur and they unceremoniously introduced and killed daavoth immediately. I will say the hell levels in tag 2 and the demonic troopers were really cool looking

[@12crenshaw]

They really should've design game around casuals WITH the option to make it harder for hardcore players. Every mechanic should have in mind it's most difficult iteration. The difficulty levels should change the skill expression required, not the amout of shots you can tank in the face because that changes nothing about how player is going to interact on different skill levels. What they've done is create a game for hardcore shooter players and tried to tone it down after making hardcore players fall in love with the game. Also, there should be in game tutorial on how to train your core high skill mechanics. I'm just introduced to the game and I have no incentive to try quick swapping because weapon binding by default is abysmal and there should be guide section for combos. If it wasn't for KZbin, from in-game experience feels like I'm supposed to run around looking only for weak points hoarding ammo like a mad man because there's no enough resources to have fun. My playthrough was just frustration waiting for ammo upgrades and hopping around arenas sniping weak points with specific weapons. Never have I ever would've thought it's possible to just blast everything with high damaging combos.

[@herosshade2247]

Finally, an analysis of the reception of modern Doom that isn't just "Oh it's too hard for you? What are you, a GAME JOURNALIST??"

[@georgeburns6512]

Dude if your bad it’s okay. Just play more and you’ll get it.

[@MarkRiches]

Brilliant video. Really enjoyed your videos throughout the DE era, and sad that it's at an end. It's probably my number one combat game ever. It just ticked all the boxes for me. I never really had a negative thing to say about either DLC, except for the final boss. I just loved having more levels to play. I think the story was pretty lame, but I just kind of accepted it and enjoyed the gameplay. One interesting thing I feel I haven't seen discussed much, on the subject of covid probably being detrimental to the DLC quality, is that I believe every single new enemy in TAG2, was a reskin of one that already exists. Green prowlers, stone imps, even the final boss himself, minus the mechsuit! Seriously, cheers for the great content the last couple years. You and this game in general got me through some bleak covid times. Great work! Really hope for another Doom or Quake soon.

[@WillTeskey-ud1ff]

I personally think what would have made the dark lord fight one of if not the best fights is literally make him an AI driven 1 to1 copy of the slayer. The fights whole purpose should be to test ALL of you knowledge and he is supposed to be a doom guy copy anyway.

[@demontekdigital1704]

I've been playing DE since the beginning, and I've seen all of the various "controversies" over the game. The fact is we live in a very "saint one minute, sinner the next" driven society. All the way across the board I've seen whining, and crying from the various players. Things like "the Marauder's way to hard!" to "Man, they should have made the Marauder more difficult with these things." We're so spoiled as a society that we tend to forget that sometimes ya just get what ya get. I, for one, really appreciate the fact that ID listens to the player base, and will actively fix broken things, and often change aspects of the game to accommodate the players. There are plenty of companies who won't do any of that, and simply put out a product that you either enjoy, or despise. I'm not part of any community, and this is exactly why. Sometimes it's people at each others' throats over stupid shit, and other times everything is heavily politically driven, (IE: you're not part of this super-awesome inner group so you get treated like shit). The gatekeepers, if you will. A lot of the feedback also came from the same idiots who had no prior experience with the game, and tried to jump right into the hardest difficulty only to throw an utter Fortnite kid style shitfit, and put the game away. Then you have the middle-of-the road players whom think they're Godlike. Trying to gatekeep a community they're barely a part of. Acting like they're the best of the best just because they beat UN once, and seem to think it's the only way to play any game. I've noticed that the truly great players, (like in most things) have nothing to prove, and are among the nicest, and most helpful people in the community. They're the real ambassadors of it, and I like that. Just like in the loading screen for Unreal Tournament III, "You were a noob once too, be nice."

[@jamessheehan2161]

Patch culture has a lot of people spoiled and they don’t even realize it.

[@banes4908]

Well written. I think the social media age in general is a gift and curse because of pure stupidity from some people. Could you imagine the amount of bitching Doom 2 would have gotten because of the arch-vile if people in 1995 had twitter or social media?

[@thewanderingartists]

Only the OG subscribers remember the original rant review upload from Mayo:P

[@Rohnon]

Tbf I think the entire Mick Gordon side is a bigger Controversy, than them fucking up the DLCs

[@KaiKrimson56]

When I played through TAG2 close to its launch, I found it to be a perfect amount of challenge until the Dark Lord boss fight. Because of that boss fight, I consider healing from damage to be a sin in game design since I hate gameplay mechanics that expect you to be perfect at avoiding damage. Not only that, but before I realized he had 5 phases, I thought the game was healing him for doing a Blood Punch instead of a Glory Kill since I thought the boss would have transitions like the Gladiator boss fight to indicate I did the right thing.

[@littlebunnywar]

Wow this is a really incredibly well done video. I don't think I've ever come across your channel before but i am thoroughly impressed. Awesome work.

[@philsswweightlossdiary2944]

I think this is a good example of why, sometimes, the gaming community is seen as toxic. It seems like the hardcore gamers got pretty much everything they wanted from the master levels, the mod and TAG 1 but when TAG 2 may have catered more towards the casual gamer they got mad? I played Doom Eternal on the lowest difficulty because, shock horror, I want to enjoy what I’m playing and not grind for hours to become a master. Kudos to id software for trying to give some Fans what they want but not every game needs to cater to the hardcore streamers. Also, kudos to you for not keeping a video up when you saw what the comments were like.

[@petervillent5573]

I played Doom ever since the first game back 1990's, except those releases in a series that were on a specific consoles. I really liked 2016 re-start, and enjoyed Eternal even tho I had some gripes with the game. Then TAG1 came out and it doubled down on all the things that were grinding me wrong with a base game. Once I finished TAG1, my feelings weren't "wow that was fun" like in previous releases. No, my reaction was "that was bullshit, let's not do it again". And I didn't, didn't even bought TAG2. As OP said - TAG1 was everything that a hardtry dedicated player wanted. Which for the majority of players clearly wasn't how they play games. Simple term of it was - powercreep. Lots of games and game systems are suffering from it, from League of Legends to Dungeons and Dragons current edition. Pleasing a dedicated power gaming fanbase with dedicated mode - that I can stand behind. TLDR: Making a whole game around the dedicated power gaming fanbase was literaly a FU from the devs to players like me.

[@kenobinai]

These are exactly my feelings, every word. Fighting for an hour in an area is not fun, it's lazy dev work.

[@BrimozDDdDdD]

@@kenobinai A lot of work went into that arena. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's lazy.

[@kenobinai]

@@BrimozDDdDdD loop through enemies repeatedly in the same map effectively getting the player stuck isn't work. New areas, and new encounters are. Repetition is repetition

[@ghettorevival9541]

@@BrimozDDdDdD duping respawns? Yeah, ALOT of work...

[@hailbane9633]

What is wrong with developers making a hard as balls DLC? Its a DLC anyway not the base campaign. I do agree that they need to make each difficulty level more distinct for the next Doom game to try to please the general community as much as possible.

[@RadioZonde]

The enemy vulnerability to specific weapons mechanic was actually present in 2016, the promotional art cards for the enemies shows which weapons worked better and the ones that made reduced damage.

[@argusy3866]

My problem was that as many others, i hated the combat loop, and each dlc just made it worse.

[@underthemayo]

I understand not everyone loves every game, but if you "hated the combat loop" why would you play the DLCs?

[@kronykaal3824]

This is why I keep away from the communities. Up until now, I didn't even know there was an outrage about it. I played the game, I played the dlcs, I loved the whole experience.

[@groos3449]

When I bought Doom Eternal TAG 1 had just been released and after finishing the main game I jumped into the DLC with one difficulty lever higher than I played on the main game because I though "Yeah I'm good now I can easily beat this" and after the first fight I was like "Oh my God! This is so fucking fun!" even tho I was dying a lot in the beggining it felt AWESOME to play like that. I remember messaging my friend telling him how hard it was and how good it was and he told me I was crazy to enjoy dying lmao. After I played it I started to get really hyped to get better and better and started watching videos and streams to get better. One of the best experiences I've and in gaming for sure

[@RisingJericho]

So TAG1 pissed off the casual players, and TAG2 pissed off the hardcore players? ...boy I'm feeling bad for iD. That really is a lose-lose situation with a fragmenting community like that.

[@orchid9]

that's some idiotic controversy. Dem Doom Eternal fans really needed to touch some grass once in a while that's for sure, this is some god tier elitism and entitlement. But to be fair the game is designed that way - it's super-gamey arcade skill-dependend shooter. It's clearly not for everyone, not for Doom fans, not for boomer shooter fans, not even for gamers. Doom Eternal is designed for hardcore Doom Eternal fans. And Doom Eternal was already divisive enough, even devs admitted that. Where Doom 2016 was likable fun game, Doom Eternal was either "hate it with a passion" or "best gaem ever, gitgud" which lead to all sorts of issues with community. Not to mention Doom was always a hyper-casual franchise that was very very easy to pick up and play. I can assure you, ID won't try anything that out of the box anytime soon.

[@theruler9880]

so basically what your saying is people got mad because they treated the way you play doom eternal as a religion? thats how it seems

[@alabamasaxman]

I'm glad I ended up only playing this game recently bc I didn't have to jump back in for tag1 I just went straight in from the base game.

[@wr-sc7et]

I (as a casual) agree that TAG 1 was far too difficult/tedious, I struggled through it at hurt me plenty but TAG 2 broke me. The double mauraders with the sceechers on immora made me rage quit several times. This wasn't helped by the fact that I play on console so weapon combos and stuff like that isn't really possible

[@deadgunslinger8489]

Super shotgun, quick swap to bfg or super shotgun, Hammer, swap to minigun with shield and spam grenades. Its how i would deal with them if i had the DLC.

[@ronintheronin8035]

I am honestly amazed at how you put this situation to words. It gives off this feel of a friendship (in this case between the players and the developers) where at one point they got into a fight. But when a friendship is good you usually end up with a stronger connection between the 2 sides, you grow to understand and respect each other. I am glad for you guys to have such an amazing community and that ID software are so focussed on listening to their players and for sticking to their game's philosophy.

[@masterninja1667]

A good watch, even years later. Been watching your videos again lately, excited about The Dark Ages, Doom taking over the brain again =P I love this game, and when I retire a few decades from now, and have the time I want for gaming, I will finally beat Cultist Base on Ultra-Nightmare... and then the game!

[@MaulLerGamer]

Thank you for explaining an interesting history of Doom Eternal. I wanna go back and play Doom Eternal now!

[@Freekymoho]

I loved the hammer and never felt it was too strong, but thats because I'm only now realizing I completely missed that weak-point breaks charge it lol, I was playing with it like a third blood punch.

[@ryang2v]

Bruh I forgot the hammer existed until Dark lord. The only times I used it were missclicks while trying to use chainsaw

[@quantumhawk806]

I hadnt played in months before TAG1 released and the difficulty is exactly what I wanted. Just getting back into the game and back to killing. Problem was I was rusty, but it was a nice refresher having to remember what I had to do. A refresher tutorial would be better I agree.

[@ColgateEagle]

I didn't know people hated TAG 2 until now

[@TheLikkittysplitt]

If only this stayed the darkest moment

[@benmurray8095]

I love the way you talk about this, its really healthy and nice to hear, though i do have one critisism. At 42:47 you refer to the crapy AAA companies as having induced "trauma" on the players. Its a massive overstatement and missuse of the word as real traumatic events are much more serious than "crappy buisiness practises". Still, i loved this video because of the way you beutifully expressed both sides in a respectful and constructive manner.

[@XLostGamer]

It hilarious but i found the gameplay in eternal boring too much effort for no result all the extra movment and the map traversel is just too much games should be fun. Its not fun having to think about cooldowns and spamming every weapon 24/7.

[@trikstari7687]

TAG2 was too easy? Not once did I ever think that. Maybe I'm just shit at DOOM Eternal?

[@NightmareX42]

Me neither at first but when you beat the full game in Ultra Nightmare you clearly see the gap of difficulty between Tag 1 and Tag 2

[@BigmanO2]

“I’m not trying to justify the reaction” *immediately tries to justify the reaction*

[@underthemayo]

@@BigmanO2 people need to learn the difference between explanation and justification.

[@Trazynn]

On the consoles, nothing is easy.