Do DACs Matter? (part 3: R2R) Bifrost 2 vs Soekris 1321

[@ejmentze]

I spent my first two weeks HATING my dac1321, then I realized that I was using the volume knob wrong. It's not an analog output volume, but an input digital volume. To use it as a fixed DAC powering an amp you need to turn it down to -3dB/-4dB so the DSP has some headroom for loud songs. Max volume is +10dB, and sounds horrible on most music. The trick is the volume indicator is a little LED, not an actual number display. So you have to turn it up to max (+10dB) then count volume wheel clicks until you turn it down to -3dB (1dB per click). Then it sounds amazing!

[@ChicagoRob2]

The BiFrost 2’s little brother, the Modi Multibit, is a giant killer. For the $249 price, nothing comes close. My experience is that delta-sigma DACs sound flat, dry, and analytical. The Multibit , on the other hand, is big, bold, and immersive. It has a very fluid delivery, with a big soundstage. Ambience, hall-sound retrieval, and decay are exceptional. I had the Modi 3+ and JDS Labs Atom DAC+, which were both good delta sigma DACs, but the Multibit is in a totally different league, sonically.

[@MrAyrit]

I’d definitely be interested to try one out at some point. Not very many on the used market (which is probably evidence to support your point of view).

[@JanPippel]

I‘m personally using the Soekris 1421 for two years now. It’s upgraded with a S‘Booster external power adapter. Use is regular hifi system with Sehring Audio M801 speakers and a reworked vintage Onyx OA21s, Toshiba Studio record player from the 80th (reworked to and upgraded with a Koetsu arm), head amp is a Meier Audio Corda Rock (from the netherlands) and i listen to two different headphones, Hifiman Drop HE4xx and Austrian Audio X65… U are right, it’s only the end priority on a system, but to me DACs matter more then cables in the same price range. I‘ve tryed the Bifrost (2) also, but here in europe the are quit expensive after taxes and shipping (it’s around 800€ vs 700€ i payed for the Soekris).

[@floydthebarber71]

Errr… YES. Using the remote to switch inputs while sitting on the couch! Exactly!! Hate getting up for my Bifrost 1 lol

[@brendanliddell240]

Thanks for the review. If you get a chance, please try and compare these two other R2R DAC's: 1. Denafrips Ares II 2. Musician Audio Pegasus

[@MrAyrit]

I’ve got the Soekris 2541 now. I’ll try to grab an Ares when I see a good deal on one. I’ll have to look into the Pegasus more.

[@brendanliddell240]

@@MrAyrit Congrats on levelling up to the Soekris 2541. I'm interested in those two R2R DAC's because I'm branched off into speakers and integrated amps instead of headphones. I'm looking at pairing one of those DACs with either the Willsenton R300 Single-ended Class A Integrated Amplifier, or the Willsenton R8 Integrated Amplifier. Both old school R2R DAC + Tube Amplifier should be luscious :)

[@MrKosh72]

@@MrAyrit How does the 2541 compare to the 1321?

[@MrAyrit]

@@MrKosh72 The 2541 really impressed me. Not so much with the 1321. My thoughts when I had the 1321 was the BF2 was the clear winner. With the 2541, I thought it was the clear winner over the BF2.

[@chronometa]

I honestly just like nerding out the technology. I have a bifrost 2 and will probably upgrade to the 2/64. I wouldn't mind checking out the burson composer, modius, for a different thing.

[@MrAyrit]

I’ve got a 2/64 right now and am loving it. Just recorded the review today.

[@adrianmorrish8494]

I'm coming round to your way of thinking, I have now heard very noticeable differences even in some of the lower end DAC'S, problem with headphines is that if you decide on trying some of the very demanding ones a lower tier amp may not allow you to actually hear the full capability, bass lacking, treble egagerated etc if current is too low on some and so forth, it's a problem isn't it. I now have an entry level dac and 2 amps setup all bought second hand in good condition and am ready to try some different headphones over the 2 I now have. I think I will avoid the headphines I am told require higher amounts of power than I have like some of the modded ones and a few others untill I get to a stage where I have fou d headphones I like and maybe upgraded my dac and then amp, or maybe amp and then dac, 😜 grief

[@kwicksandz]

It's a shame you said you aren't interested in higher end gear. I have been using a ess9018 sabre delta sigma DAC from 2015 for a few years and have been getting upgradeitis, looking at r2r specifically the gunginir or the ares 2. Like you I'm sceptical about how noticeable the difference is and whether it's worth large increase in price to go the next tier of DACs. Maybe I'll get the bifrost just to dip my toe in r2r world and if I don't notice any difference I'll delete head fi from my favourites list 😂

[@MrAyrit]

To be clear, it’s not that I’m not interested. Anything else is probably just past what I can justify spending….that’s my stance at this point in time anyway.

[@apmihai82]

i was wondering, since these 2 are chip based R2R DACs , are you looking at going even higher to discrete ladders ( Denafrips Ares2 territory)? thanks and keep up the good work. Never mind i just saw the least part and that the soekris is a discrete R2R. Cheers!

[@MrAyrit]

Probably not, but if one comes around a good price.... you never know. Or, if someone would send me one.

[@MrKosh72]

The Soekris 1321 is a discrete ladder DAC and not chip based.

[@Karim-ik5ij]

All of this does not really matter much unless you do a blind test with volume matching.

[@MrAyrit]

I can appreciate that perspective, but it’s too much work for me. I do try to volume match, but it certainly isn’t a scientific process.

[@Karim-ik5ij]

@@MrAyrit I appreciate the videos man!

[@dialecticalmonist3405]

Headphones allow you the CHANCE to hear "the magic". Amplifiers make it easier to hear "the magic". The DAC is where "the magic" is cooked. But you will never hear a difference if you don't have the kitchen required to make the meal. And if you're not looking for that "magical quality" in music, you shouldn't be buying any of this stuff.

[@MrAyrit]

What’s the kitchen in this metaphor?

[@dialecticalmonist3405]

@@MrAyrit How about... Headphones = Kitchen Amplifiers = Cooking equipment DAC = Food quality / ingredients Musician = Chef Does that sound good?

[@MrAyrit]

@@dialecticalmonist3405 i think we’re getting closer.

[@leninreddy]

What's the amp you are using for all those dacs?

[@MrAyrit]

Great question (I should have mentioned that). I was used them with the G111, Jotenhiem 2, Valhalla 2, and MT604.

[@DavidLopez-pz4np]

@@MrAyrit Hi, between Valhalla 2 and Jotunheim 2, which one do you think is better amp for a Sennheiser hd600 series? Or both just sound really similar?

[@MrAyrit]

@@DavidLopez-pz4np well, I haven’t ever heard the 600, but with just about all my headphones, I prefer the Valhalla. It’s definitely the front runner right now for my main amp. I’ve got a Singxer coming to test, and then I’ll go from there as to what I keep between it, the G111, and the IeMagni. The Valhalla will for sure be staying unless the Singxer just total blows me away.

[@ForeverYoung007]

The biggest issue I also have with any Schiit dac is the lack of digital controls (can't change volume through macos). Somehow the cheap grace design dacs (all the chinese ones for that matter) have volume controls but Schiit still won't invest in implementing this.

[@devinmatteson]

That’s because they don’t use the cooky cutter usb and dac chips that every Chinese audio company uses. Schiit focuses on creating a simple, reliable and clean digital to analog conversion. They utilize they’re unison usb that helps with plug and play usability, without the need of drivers to get the most out of it, as well as electrostatic and electromagnetic isolation, to reduce side effects of having bad sources. They don’t allow for a volume control, wether that be in the digital or analog domain because that adds more unnecessary components into the mix of a dac, that in their eyes, should take a digital signal in and output a fixed analog signal that is as true to their desires with the least amount of variables preventing that from happening. You want volume control on the source end, utilizing macros, put an eq filter driver on the source and control the volume on the source end of things, while the audio files are still in a digital format and leave the dac to do what it does best, just convert digital to analog.

[@adrianmorrish8494]

use a passive preamp of good quality after the DAC and before the amp to control the DAC output strength if you need to, when you use the volume control on a DAC it is in preamp mode and has to pass through either an electronic volume control circuit or a circuit through a mechanical pot. Why are you using the volume control on the DAC by the way if I can ask, is it for powered speakers?

[@ForeverYoung007]

​@@adrianmorrish8494 For convenience. For either powered monitors or simply convenience of using a keyboard to quickly control the volume up/down when using the dac in a computer desktop setup.

[@ForeverYoung007]

@devin matteson At the end of the day most of the competion offers this without needing to install additional drivers and there isn't noticeable difference in EMI or sound quality. if I recall correctly Jason stated something to the extent that they have a small team and that's just something they just don't go into or specialize in (software, drivers etc).

[@adrianmorrish8494]

@@ForeverYoung007 I see, so you want to change your computer sound output level rather than between DAC and amp, have a look at some articles on this area as you are loosing dynamic range at least by reducing audio output level on the source if a mac or wintel system, and probably quality of signal/power. The way a preamp function works is not a volume control as such it works in a very different way to maintain as much as possible signal quality,

[@qddk9545]

So far I can see the Bifrost is NOT a discrete R - 2R DAC like the Soeren Kris, so maybe you should learn the concepts, before doing videos about it, and wasting everybody's time.