Has the EU already lost the lithium battery war?

[@DWPlanetA]

How dependent is your country when it comes to lithium?

[@JSM-bb80u]

My country is china. So not much.😂

[@lotus-chain]

In this reality of life: Lithium production from Iran and Afghanistan! The EU and China have just stolen it...

[@paulc6766]

Australia, not at all.

[@tooltalk]

@@JSM-bb80u China imports most lithium from Australia and Chile.

[@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257]

Indonesian just made from 70% world nickel

[@TheGoodDrEvil]

The competition isn’t over lithium batteries. It’s over batteries. Lithium based is just the must popular type currently. Doesn’t mean it’s the only option.

[@DWPlanetA]

Yes, there are also sodium-ion batteries 👉kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6fSk4CiatGXhdU

[@Foersom_]

Na-ion batteries stores less energy per kg, so they are not a good choice for EVs, but a good choice for stationary storage. Variations of Li-ion batteries will continue to be best option for EVs.

[@TheGoodDrEvil]

@@Foersom_ for the foreseeable future. For the mainstream: yes. We’ll see what the future brings. Lithium is important but not the only horse in the race.

[@tooltalk]

It is very much about battery raw materials.

[@TheGoodDrEvil]

@ that’s definitely a big part of it yeah, never suggested it wasn’t.

[@CausticLemons7]

Europe: Says NO mining, NO processing, NO factories, NO changes! Also Europe: Why are the US and China growing but we're not?

[@tooltalk]

too many regulations.

[@amandagrant4331]

To protect the environment, Europe can sacrifice all industries. I think this is right.

[@blakoemail]

​@@amandagrant4331 wait until people get poor and hungry.

[@BSPBuilder]

Europe is not a country. That is a fundamental disadvantage.

[@JhonUgh]

@@blakoemail 宁愿饿死，也要保护环境，这是环保主义者

[@06howea1]

Those freaking disposable vapes

[@dogbreath6974]

Not just vapes, but lithium AA,AAA, use once then throw away.

[@AndreasDelleske]

@@dogbreath6974I have never seen them. It would make no sense as AA has 1.5, LiFePO4 has 3.2 volts.

[@dogbreath6974]

@@AndreasDelleskeI was not referring to Evs, but AA,AAA batterys in general electronics, like torch/flashlight, kids toys etc.

[@unknownman5090]

@@dogbreath6974 I am surprise everything not rechargeable this day

[@johnzach2057]

@@dogbreath6974 Yeah. Non reusable lithium batteries should just be banned immediately. No questions asked.

[@gregoryb6]

Misprint at 8:38, narrator says battery factory in Europe is 50 times more expensive - text says 50 percent. Other than that, its a realistic view of Europe's prosperity and how we keep it for ourselves.

[@onceuponatimeandspace]

A pretty concerning typo, to be honest. We could spot it because they provided the source on screen, but what kinds of evidence did they get wrong that they didn't show?

[@antred11]

@@onceuponatimeandspace Sadly, that's the kind of thoroughness and quality of "journalism" one has to expect in this day and age.

[@peter.g6]

Wow, thanks for pointing it out. I wasn't looking at the screen at that moment and wondered how that could be possible. It's insane someone says that out loud without noticing there's probably a mistake.

[@oyuyuy]

@@antred11 You suck man

[@Videomorgue]

Maybe that missing 4950% were the friends we made along the way?

[@Suburp212]

The EU should already be making sodium batteries. But the sleepyheads in the EU also slept through this new development.

[@humanbass]

They are ok, but still inferior to lithium. Who will buy expensive european EVs with worse batteries than the cheaper and better chinese EVs?

[@YeTao-i4v]

China leads there as well..

[@BSPBuilder]

Guess who is the leader in Sodium batteries? 🤣🤣

[@larryc1616]

CATL

[@vlhc4642]

China's advantage comes from battery technology including processing technology. It doesn't matter if its sodium or lithium, China's lead is invariant of the base mineral. If anything sodium is even worse because at least lithium used to be expensive and China has the pay the same as everyone else. With sodium competitiveness is entirely reliant on tech, which maximizes China's advantage.

[@TheBielrangel]

Sadly the EU is the winner at losing. If we at least tried to follow draghi's plan, then we could maybe compete with the US and China. Sadly we keep the idea of irrational austerity, so we're doomed to keep failing.

[@unatwomey7112]

He'd be a lot better than von der Leyen. But a German chancellor with a vision would be a start.

[@vlhc4642]

There is no irrational austerity, there is only poverty and poor people who has delusions of wealth.

[@TheBielrangel]

​@@vlhc4642 if you undertood that by irrational austerity I was referring to a person, then you already got the comment wrong. Yes, there is irrational austerity and despite all my critics of the US, this is something they know damn well will hurt their economy, so they never do. Look at Germany(and other EU countries) during 2008 and the US. Compare our answers to the crisis and you can see the result, it's staggerig.

[@vlhc4642]

@@TheBielrangel There is no separate European response, the response was coordinated, US and EU can't both print trillions and not have massive inflation, Europe had to adopt austerity for US printing to work. Both US and EU run massive trade deficits and produces less and less things of value, its the collective west that's broke with have delusions of wealth.

[@rohitmishra670]

The EU in the past used to(still do, just not to Russia) depend on energy (fuel and gas) on foreign countries and now it's the same for batteries. . In the past century it feels like the EU has been systematically de-industrialized and made more and more dependent on foreign countries for critical resources.

[@rzpogi]

It's copying the crappy US model on focusing more on services rather than industry. No wonder Norway doesn't want to join the EU as they want a robust industry and resource extraction, and the EU would just suck them dry once they got in.

[@AmAmtrak5136]

That's how developed nations tend to be. Deindustrialize, offload your industries onto poorer nations with cheaper labor, and then complain about them doing most of the polluting

[@suddenly_radical4558]

Private companies moved away their production becouse they didn't want to deal with labour unions and to have super profits.

[@margeert3952]

I agree with the speaker in the video: we have exported our polluting industries to other countries, we profit from cheap, unsafe labor elsewhere and then the conclusion is of course that we are too expensive! We must include environmental and social cost for products entering our market.

[@GoodCitizen-gm1tl]

In Europe, only Germany is still revelant in tangible manufacturing and hi-tech industries, the others like Britain, France, Italy... are all de-industrialized to the degree they sell virtual financial services like stocks and insurance products as well as pharmaceuticals (Britain), tourism, perfumes, overvalued LV bags (France), pizza, pasta, macroni and tourism (Italy) ...... They are not relevant with the tangible hi-tech industries, especially the emerging hi-tech ones in the 21st century. Australia and New Zealand are just agricultural countries that sell sheep wools, mutton, beef, milk powder and earth minerals. Canada is...sorry, never heard of any hi-tech companies or even any products from Canada, it has a poor sense of presence when talking about technologies and stuffs. Japan is still somewhat a strong player but it is stagnant for too long and it's becoming not very competitive in more and more industries facing South Korea and China's tech rise. South Korea is increasingly competitive in hi-tech but in the emerging ones like AI, EV, automatic driving, brain-computer interface, quantum, 6G..., it is still largely irrelavant, the real black horse is China. China and the US are the true players in these emerging and disruptive technologies that will shape the future. So far, the US lacks industrial power in conventional hi-tech industries like shipbuidling, steel-making, semiconductor manufacturing, trucks, cranes and heavy machines manufacturing and others. China, on the other hand, is becoming a full-MVP player in both conventional and disruptive high technologies.

[@tride.design]

Europe should be focused on recycling lithium, not on mining lithium.

[@malysev]

good idea, but that would increase the price of recycling which has its downsides too if places like china will be able to recycle cheaper

[@KevinLyda]

The problem is that there's not much to recycle. EV batteries are lasting longer than predicted.

[@The8BitPianist]

@@KevinLyda By the time efforts to upscale recycling start showing, there'll be enough stocks of material I'd wager

[@nihitagrawal05]

As I am into this business of lithium & EV, I would like to inform you that recycled lithium doesn't have enough energy left which increases the electricity consumption to fully charge a battery, slower down the battery capacity & battery discharges faster

[@SuperAti15]

or developing alternatives. Sodium etc. Lithium might well be German of early semiconductors industry. Before anyone had time to worry who has German and who don't it was replaced with silicone chips 💁‍♂️

[@CrownRider]

Lithium is not the only solution for storage batteries. In fact Sodium has so much better properties for the application. Sodium is widely available in Europe and very helpful in using excess power from wind and solar.

[@unatwomey7112]

There's a new desalination method that can produce water cheaper than traditional tap water with much less energy. MIT research funded by China.

[@backpackpepelon3867]

That's the reason why CN is heavily investing in sodium battery technology, perhaps more than anyone else. They will not give up their massive lead easily.

[@fungo6631]

But that would make China angry and as a result it will flood Europe with fentanyl.

[@ricardoxavier827]

The best energy bateries are actualy riverdamms.

[@ab-ym3bf]

Exactly, there are so many alternatives like sand, water, salt etc. Lithium is just very well suited for EV's at the moment, hence the hype.

[@Zemaj]

I’d say this to Serbia’s Bojana Novakovic (timestamp 5:12): Australia’s national economy is largely dependent on being one very large export mining pit. Its mining companies (Rio Tinto et al) pay only lip-service to indigenous Aboriginal culture, agricultural and horticultural land rights, social and environmental concerns, etc. But they basically bankroll governments of all political persuasions at both state and federal levels. So they reign supreme.

[@saellenx3528]

Your nation is as big as Europe. If they mine somewhere with no people in close proximity, it's not a problem at all. Serbia is small and they mine near villages where people live. Mining this material is extremely toxic and it ruins underground water, air, wildlife, etc. Why doesn't Germany mine its own lithium?

[@ricardoxavier827]

@@saellenx3528 EU has megadamms potential, onshore and offshore wind potential, and solar potential, enough, to become 100% green hydrogen economy all year. Totaly independent from the rest of the world. And the existing natural gaz pipelines, the majority can be converted to distribute the hydrogen between all the EU members. Hydrogen can be used for all types of vehicles, including aviation, and for heating as well. It has domestic and industrial use. Hydrogen economy. 100% independent from the rest of the world. Only need energy and sea water (fresh water even better).

[@dzonikg]

Corrupt government ,EU and RIo TInto want mine here

[@seanlander9321]

What a tremendous amount of twaddle. You’re delusional.

[@SonnyDarvishzadeh]

@@ricardoxavier827 We're at an era of disassembling dams since they destroy or change ecosystems dramatically. Any fancy tech like Hydrogen has issues of its own, like cost, scalability, safety, etc. Otherwise, there are so many theoretically amazing possibilities.

[@haloforce1395]

It’s not just quantity coming out of china it’s the quality of the battery products as well china is doing an amazing job on innovation in the battery industry . They aren’t going to slow down either

[@FabioCapela]

Yep. And, to compound the issues, batteries are one segment where improvements to both batteries and the manufacture tech makes not only for better products, but also for *cheaper* products; if you improve energy density by 25% without increasing costs, for example, this means you can drop your battery's physical size, weight, *and price* by a third without reducing its energy or cutting into your margins. Unless someone else can match China's R&D on Battery - a tall order, since China produces about two thirds of all high-quality research articles on battery tech in the world, and its largest battery makers are in a research consortium to improve the efficiency of their research - then China will maintain a commanding lead.

[@tooltalk]

China is mostly about cheap, low-end LFP batteries. China's competitive advantage is their dominance in the global raw material/mineral supply-chain. They are still limited by the fact that Japan and South Korea most of lithium ion battery IP -- not to mention there is a looming IP patent war in the East which will soon spill over to the EU.

[@FabioCapela]

@@tooltalk China holds the majority of the *new* patents on lithium-ion batteries, though, as well as the lead on the *impactful* patents; this means as patents expire China is poised to become the uncontested leader in battery IP, even for older chemistries like lithium ion. It already is for newer chemistries; China has more people researching batteries than any other country, perhaps even more battery research people than the rest of the world added together (a natural reflection of the fact China takes in more than half the global revenue from battery sales). China is also forcing local companies to cooperate and share some battery research, which improves the efficiency of said research. And research in China is naturally cheaper than in the US, EU, or Japan (I'm not sure where Korea stands on research costs). Also, LFP was only truly low-end back before China got into the business of researching and improving it; now it has energy densities lower (though close) to that of NMC, but in exchange is more durable, safer, charges faster, emits less heat, and can provide more instant power. I frankly wouldn't even consider a car that didn't use LFP batteries, given the advantages of the chemistry; an NMC battery EV might have a slightly longer range, but an LFP one would be better in absolutely everything else.

[@eddyd8745]

I think that in the future recycling old batteries will be a significant factor.

[@kika191grg]

Not likely its too expensive, Chinese cars are alredy much cheaper and with recycled batteries they will be even more cheaper. Would you buys German 50 000 dollars car if same size and quality Chinese car is 15 000?

[@ricardoxavier827]

For cellphones and laptops, yes. For cars and trucks and planes, no. Its better the hydrogen way. More energy dense and light, and infinite source, so no nation of the world can monopoly hydrogen, because to produce hydrogen we only need sea water and electricity. Anything that can be controlled, can be manipulated to stay scarce. Scarcity value are the game of the economic monopolies, and hydrogen blocks that psycopaths world monopoly plans..

[@tooltalk]

recycling won't be a big factor until 10-15 years down the road.

[@kika191grg]

@@tooltalk recycling is a big scam

[@tooltalk]

@@kika191grg : battery recycling is fairly common, even for non-lithium batteries.

[@DonHrvato]

Labour costs are high in western Europe, but cheap in eastern Europe so that is not an argument of you see the EU for real as one and not fragmented protectionism

[@Nikoo033]

Is it me or there was no correlation between current lithium extraction sites (north Europe, Poland, Romania, Greece) and the actual lithium “favorability index map”? 😅 If anything, the largest spot is right in the middle of France, which was not addressed here.😅 What’s going on?

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

China does not have an "overcapacity" of battery production. It is a net exporter of batteries, just as other countries are next exporters of other products. "Overcapacity" would be more than global demand. Also, China does not "just do it". Chinese have been working on battery technology for 3 decades, have leading technology and have highly automate production (a necessity for quality ad safety).

[@MichaelBabich]

Resume: Europe gave up its own refining and processing of ore in favor of cheap Chinese labor and now EU is in panic. Lithium is everywhere. The problem is to mine and refine raw material. The ore itself isn't a problem. It's everywhere.

[@Shadowxjen]

Germany even has one of the biggest lithium sources, but knowing germany it will takes centuries to use it

[@amandagrant4331]

Uraula is good at talking, but not at doing.

[@Zedgo99]

'its everywhere' is the cry used for rare earth metal too, it doesn't matter if its everywhere only if it's easily accessible. There is fresh water in the ocean too, its everywhere. Just has some salt in it.

[@Henij89117]

Thinking the only advantage of China is cheap labor is another problem on western countries

[@MichaelBabich]

@@Henij89117 It was an advantage THEN - when the west gave up own capacities in favour of Chinese ones. Using this advantage China built mining, raw material processing, production capacities, and extensive supply lines. Now Chinese labor isn't cheap, but China built aforementioned capacities and made them the advantage NOW.

[@AmerBoyo]

I can answer that… Yes! What our politicians and companies have been doing is beyond me.

[@KlanHoffman]

When EU has scaled up its lithium production, we will use something better.

[@patrickday4206]

Yeah solid state

[@KlanHoffman]

@patrickday4206 Or something else

[@malcolm8564]

Seems very silly to use lithium for stationary batteries just like it's silly to make massive powerful cars.

[@DWPlanetA]

So what about these alternatives? Sand and salt batteries 👉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6fSk4CiatGXhdU Gravity battery 👉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHOWanV_iLOnZtU Check these videos from us and share your thoughts in the comments. 🌱

[@erroredhacker]

Europe wants its continental local environmental preservation cake and eat cheap batteries too, lmao. Get used to material dependence, prepare to pay out for local manufacture, or accept destruction of local landscape. There is no clean heavy industry, wake up from your armchairs.

[@Highollow]

"Europe" is not a hivemind, it's some 450 million people spread over a double dozen countries. And yes, it wants to preserve its environment while not depending on imports for all its materials and manufacturing. Combining the two is hard, but I find it misleading to pretend that this is an either/or situation.

[@amandagrant4331]

In fact, the most environmentally friendly way is to de-industrialize. Politicians always pretend not to know.

[@unatwomey7112]

Yeah, desalination can generate freshwater and sodium for batteries that need abundant non toxic components. With proper planning, people can have their cake and eat it. New desalination methods can produce water cheaper than traditional tap water. It's funded by China and created by MIT. Europe lost a lot of innovation to the US inflation reduction act. And we will need rewilded areas that can contain excessive water so that they don't burn in dry periods or flood in storms.

[@ain92ru]

Yes, and I would also add the energy costs problem touched on in the video. Heavy industry needs consistent and cheap energy, which is either achieved by local fossil fuels (natural gas in MENA countries, USA, Russia and Argentina, coal in China) or some combination of hydro, nuclear and small/rare population (Scandinavian countries and Paraguay). None of that is feasible for any EU country south of Sweden because renewables are variable as of now, not a base load

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

@@Highollow ""Europe" is not a hivemind" Yes and that means it will be the end of industrialization and prospertity in Europe. If we do not start to "hive mind" then the Africans will take over from us. Or the middle east.

[@hyrenaj2888]

50% of lithium mined in Australia, 70-90% of lithium processed in China, 75% of battery manufacturing in Europe owned by Koreans, and thumbnail shows China... OK edit: just finished watching it and China's barely even mentioned, very briefly a few times... come on

[@marvinafonso7713]

Middle children catching strays in this video😭

[@KarlosEPM]

Not stray or indirect at all. But hey, aren't we used to these unnecessary humilliations?

[@edgeribble]

@@KarlosEPM Tbh the stereotype is just not true

[@cte4dota]

If Rio Tinto is normal company and care about nature and people and have some standards maybe mining would be possible, but they are huge greedy company that destroy everything in process. Everyone knows that so everyone is against them and their mining in Serbia.

[@RichardKing-sx6xc]

Keep them out of Serbia.

[@amandagrant4331]

Rio Tinto only cares about their profits.

[@cidercreekranch]

Lithium is not the best solution for grid scale battery storage. The advantage that Europe has over North America is it smaller geographical size enabling cheap and efficient mass transit. Increase investments in mass transit and increase taxes on individual motor vehicles, ICE or electric, would likely reduce the demand for individual motor vehicles and further increase adoption of mass transit. Also, sometimes it is good to set unrealistic goals since it can spur quicker development of more reasonable timelines.

[@mexesrexes4495]

Money makes the world go round. Follow the money and it makes sense. This whole climate change thing is about money. Europeans have nothing to offer businesses, they are not interested in mass transit, it is all about the mines and the ability to sell lithium cars and batteries GLOBALLY based on the shift in energy sources, unfortunately the Chinese got the jump on the U.S. and Europe. Hence the Tariff by both. Mass transit of for those who believe in climate change not money men.

[@El.Duder-ino]

Cool report, thx DW!👍As it was correctly pointed out in the vid, EU ignored importance of mining and refining lithium and consequently also producing its own batteries for way too long and basically lost the race to China and Asia by being too late. Now it should focus on all of these up/mid/down streams with highest importance primarily on the mid and secondly on the down stream as up stream mining is way too long and complicated process. Nevertheless it should focus on all with different timelines and expectations for each of them. Catching up with the rest of the world especially with China is almost impossible, however EU should definitely develop its own lithium battery ecosystem to minimize risk and complete reliance on the global production. EU has more than enough lithium to supply itself, however there's a long road to it which doesn't end there as EVs require new electric infrastructure and grid upgrade. This is a overall a HUGE interconnected project which requires time and development which EU doesn't have. China in comparison to EU bet BIG on lithium and batteries since early 2000s to free itself from energy dependance and now it's too late for EU to catch up. All EU can do is to develop its own battery infrastructure as fast as possible until it becomes self sustainable while China and USA will clearly lead the way.

[@MGZetta]

EU can't even give Serbia a membership but already planning to use and milk it. 😂

[@Sq7Arno]

Were it me I'd initially go, as a low hanging fruit, for 25% from domestic supply, 25% from allied nations, 25% from anywhere, 25% non-lithium chemistries. Something like that. Maximizes maneuverability and minimizes risk. After that the situation becomes much more manageable. Much easier to plot a future, even better, course from.

[@unatwomey7112]

A couple of years ago we lost a number of startups and researchers to the US with its inflation reduction act. China also invested heavily. Germany invested heavily in China and remains so. It's a self-destructive strategy. The time lost in responding to the US and China will only continue to cost everyone in Europe, whether we're in the EU or not. European countries need to elect leaders who are brave and visionary, not fear mongers funded by Russia.

[@backpackpepelon3867]

Really? You gonna blame the wacky decision of EU lawmakers and politicians on Russia, when all they do is wag their tail to US 😅.

[@tooltalk]

can't fight the war in Ukraine and China at the same time.

[@Utoko]

It is a natural to rely on other countries, provided that there is no intention of engaging in warfare. There are, in fact, 100 other ways in which the EU are interdependent. The focus should be on the development of industry. The EU is currently preoccupied with catching up with other countries after the fact, which is an indication that it is stuck in its ways.

[@tooltalk]

China is mercantilist.

[@vnadarajah9730]

Lithium is powerful but unstable, and I believe there is an alternative option to make safe, powerful and compact batteries. Spacematerial might likely push us further in technologies and who gets there first to industrialise, they will rule the next generation of modern society.

[@didierpuzenat7280]

This video has a *huge* issue: *not a word on recycling* ! Europe is used to import huge quantities of petrol, so importing batteries is not an issue for the economy. What Europe must focus on is *recycling* for all the refined materials of the imported batteries to *stay* in Europe. Then the next step is to build a circular economy with minimum new importation and/or extraction. Furthermore the transition away from fossil energies is not just replacing petrol cars and trucks by electric ones, it is also about public transportation (including trains), secure bike infrastructure, walkable cities, proximity services and shops, etc. In 2050 in Europeans cities almost nobody will own a car, and 80% of Europeans live in cities. And for the 20% in rural areas we need indeed electrics cars, but the better the charging infrastructure, the smaller the batteries, so in 2050 an electric car will probably just have 50 kWh, and it will be a small sedan not a big SUV. And all cars do not need to be capable of long distance trips, for example a Citroën Ami is perfect between villages or to go to a train station 50 km away, and it has less than 5 kWh of batteries. So my guess is that the "battery war" will just not be, especially compared to the oil (real) wars that have been destroying so many countries for so many years.

[@agentswaggerbchannel]

Sounds like Serbia isn’t opposed to lithium mining, they’re opposed to the VERY REAL negative impacts from the current plans with mining. The company who wants to mine so badly should invest more money to make sure the mine doesn’t impact local residents. If they deem this impossible (too expensive in their opinion), then I guess they don’t really need to mine that badly after all.

[@The8BitPianist]

9:50 an improved ability to react to global economic situations is an interesting argument I have not heard from the "make the EU a country" crowd yet

[@unatwomey7112]

Misreading information leads to all kinds of disruption. Right-wing fear frenzies have been a toxic mess. See the UK's unending austerity, which stems from right-wing inspired fear and incompetence. Disrupting trade, travel, hungry children, record nhs waiting lists. Not improved but worse. Not the ability to react but fear and isolation. Not global but declining. Very like Moscow.

[@tooltalk]

@@unatwomey7112 wait 'til you hear about the left wing frenzies between 2000 and 2017 that was a specular global failure.

[@AMeierhoefer]

China and USA did the investments and now EU is punishing China with tariffs for BEV's which have the batteries in them. China decided to stop investing in factories for Europe as soon as the tariffs where activated. Europe is killing itself form within and if it were to provide the funding there is no way to make a claim that the funding form the Chinese or US governments are not allowed while the one form Eu would be ok.

[@Chatintime]

actions meeting engagements is a tough business ! some day europe may have to recalculate

[@smallbutdeadly931]

I think at some point we're going to need to address the environmental impacts of heavily relying on lithium, and the waste products that follow. Unrelated but even if you already look at products like "disposable" vapes you'll have people throwing away one-use devices that have completely usable batteries. There was a video someone made about how they turned a bunch of those batteries into a homemade portable charger.

[@badbad-cat]

At least lithium is a normal metal unlike plastic or radioactive wastes

[@theworddoner]

What’s the point of investing so much into lithium? Why not salt batteries? It’s more abundant/stable than lithium. This is especially important in winter countries.

[@philosopherfrombed]

Great video done by DW, According to the data I gathered and the brainstorming I did I guess by 2030 major players in lithium refining to final manufacturing will be: 1. China 2. US 3. India 4. EU 5. Either Brazil, Indonesia or Australia

[@miguela7433]

EU is 5 (or more) years late to the party and likely missing the key thing: How is EU doing on investigating advanced battery technologies? Being able to self-source "obsolete" batteries is better than nothing but probably not good enough to sustain a competitive industry.

[@devroombagchus7460]

I do not think that labour is expensive in Europe. Workers are just paid a fair wage, unlike in many other regions.

[@amandagrant4331]

Europe can import low-cost labor from Africa.

[@Highollow]

>"8:28: China's projected 2030 capacity is about 4 TWh, which means the reace might already be over." What race? The EU only wants a _strategic_ reserve/production of Lithium and batteries. This is not a race to the moon, is it? I don't like the tone of this video, it's all over the place, discusses every challenge in a negative tone and all without discussing the trade-offs of each decision that needs to be made.

[@johnjingleheimersmith9259]

They can spend untold billions on agriculture subsidies and other nonsense but none on lithium? Just get do it and be done with it.

[@unatwomey7112]

​@@johnjingleheimersmith9259it's not just lithium. There's a whole infrastructure and planning deficit that needs a coordinated plan, not piecemeal patchwork. Desalination x sodium batteries. Solid state batteries. Manufacturing - we lost a lot of start-ups to the US a couple of years ago. Infrastructure, emergency response resources. Education for the future, retraining. If we did what China is doing in batteries and manufacturing, we'd do it better. We need bravery that we do not have in our current crop of leaders or wannabe leaders.

[@frmcf]

I'm a realist, and not completely against the idea of new mines in Europe if it's done as cleanly as possible and the resource extraction benefits the people. Natural resources are not the property of corporations. The profits should belong to the people, and if there are private companies involved, then they are paid a fee for the work that they do, they are not the owners of the resource. Otherwise, why would anyone allow this on their land or anywhere near them? Another question, though: Is all of this for electric cars? Really? Are we sure about this technology?

[@DemocracyDecoded]

By the time they catch up with Lithium China would've standardized sodium ion batteries in every car around the globe. What use is Lithium if Sodium ion is better in every way, you know cheaper, safer, more energy efficient, maybe they should focus on that instead to get ahead of the curve.

[@jakuborvos1575]

sodium cannot be better than lithium bateries in terms of performance due to physical limitations and simply higher weight of sodium (weight per electron transferred). It is too heavy for longer range vehicles. For simple uses in commuter minicars or stationary storage more than OK, for higher end EV´s - not so much.

[@antalito3047]

In Hungary, they built quite a few battery plants. The issue is that making batteries is a very water intensive process and Hungary is already prone to drought. People protested but of course the lovely government pushed it through. We’ll see the environmental impact in a few years…

[@tooltalk]

From what I hear the labor situation is quite tight in Hungary -- along with Poland, has some of the lowest unemployment rate in the EU zone.

[@RavenGhostwisperer]

Well, you only need 100 vape batteries for one electric bicycle ;). Time to recycle ;)

[@solarslot01]

European Metals Holdings / CEZ = Geomet in the Czech Republic : the PFS for this mine is for it to be 'UNDERGROUND' and remains so for the imminently [late] DFS - this mine remains the best mine in EU in terms of ESG by far and is the 5th largest hard rock lithium+ mine in the World - largest EU deposit. Yet again we hang on to the EU politicians to make decisions and apply mining licences whilst China finds ways to get around EU restrictions - unbelievable complacency.

[@ab-ym3bf]

EU politicians don't get to hand out any licenses. National governments do.

[@santostv.]

We are a bunch of 27 countries, this means one or more of the 27 with lithium deposits needs to be the sacrificial lamb for the eu. Same reason we can’t compete in tech because if we focus on creating a eu tech hub in Estonia For example,other countries need to give up their own country tech hub. In Portugal we already had scandal linked to lithium mine and environmental reports. We can become a refinery just like we did with oil, create a recycling lithium economy.

[@ab-ym3bf]

Lithium is just the hot item of the moment. Like oil it will be replaced by other minerals, just on a shorter time span. I don't see the EU "panicking", after all a lot of previous energy sources kijenoil and gas had to come from other unstable parts of the world like the ME and Russia.

[@maynotbe]

eu lost at more than 10 years ago. you still have to build lithium refineries., and China has almost all the battery grade graphite. good luck catching up to that

[@MyrKnof]

Natrium (sodium) is on the rise, so I think we should focus on refining and using that, instead of trying to break into a very well established market.

[@jalalfouani]

Imagine ever being proactive with a Von Der Leyen at the wheel.

[@urbanstrencan]

Another great video keep it up 🤟💪🤩❤❤

[@alexannal]

Really could play a trick and develop recycling. It would be much cheaper and keep the expensive minerals in the eu

[@dougsheldon5560]

Let's hear it for sodium folks.

[@tooltalk]

Not for evs

[@Nikoo033]

@@tooltalkthere is a possibility that it might work for EVs. A new sodium-based high energy density solid state cell technology with energy density was published over the summer 2024 in the journal Nature. It’s coming. Look up “Design principles for enabling an anode-free sodium all-solid-state battery”

[@BSPBuilder]

Guess who is the leader in sodium batteries?

[@Nikoo033]

@@BSPBuilder 😂👏🏻 starts with a big C as well people 🙈

[@BSPBuilder]

@@Nikoo033 🤣🤣

[@ThalanorThornhale]

Agreed, Lithium Recycling and look to support sodium ion batteries.

[@etienne8110]

The funny thing is given how carbon tube batteries might just be superior, we may just drop lithium batteries in the next decade. So the race for batteries is still on, even if we lost the lithium round.

[@szaszm_]

NIMBYs have a point when they're paying for the externalities, like polluted environment and ground water. With their health. Whereas China can (and does) just ignore those people, and pollute the land anyway for cheaper production.

[@alexandermoody1946]

This is such a waste of time, if the west wants to compete they should be focused not on lithium but instead on micro and nano nuclear. The problem is the profit margins and motives for batteries and the overall reliance rather than a modular nano nuclear solution that would be multilayer compatible and globally standardised. Lots of companies have already been incredibly successful at scaling some of the way down like Rolls Royce for instance but we can go even smaller with the advances that will be possible in very short time frames.

[@frmcf]

This is an abuse of the term "nimbyism", which more appropriately applies to blocking or protesting the building of public infrastructure or housing, not mines or other industrial sites which are built for private profit.

[@TZShuhag-t8g]

There is another type of battery on rise and that is Silicon-carbon batteries. Maybe EU can also work on that.

[@passais]

Another falsehood: what the USA does the EU cannot do because we are not a country but a federation of countries. Wrong: the USA is a federation. The EU a very evolved partnership of countries. Regrettably without own taxing and lending possibilities. So the money has to come mainly from the states and raising that amount is politically problematic and countries keep thinking at the national scale for investment which is penny wise pound foolish.

[@EuroGunOrg]

Sodium-Ion batteries ... anyone.... Why should the EU even try catch up with the Li-Ion technology ? By the time the EU will be able to make all this happen Sodium-Ion batteries will be mainstream and, we're back to square one...

[@TheStefanmiletic]

China heavily invest in sodium batteries CATL is the biggest supplier of this type of battery in the world.They just opened the biggest energy storage that uses sodium batteries in Qianjiang. Do you think the rest of the world sleeps on new technologies? EU is far behind even in this technology. Plus they are not going to be used in a electric car production for a decades to come because of low energy density. Eu needs to get it together and invest in future technologies or we are not going to live as comfortably as we are used to.

[@chuckghaly]

I do get that we need to open conversations about new forms of mining in Europe, because the exploitation of the Earth is going to happen somewhere in any case. However what's also for sure is that Rio Tinto is a company that has shown, in Australia for example, that it can't be trusted to steward the land....

[@kozel0147]

I'm gonna be a NIMBYer when it comes to mining lithium here. Mining lithium is extremely disruptive and the batteries themselves are not great. If they get overcharged just a tiny bit, they catch fire. If they're left with no charge for too long, they degrade insanely (also true for batteries that are fully charged for too long). While I don't think sodium should be the endgame, it is better in every way except for the weight-capacity ratio. But that has evolved insanely over the past years. Let's just abandon lithium ASAP and look for better alternatives. And let's pour money into fusion research.

[@jouniko]

The sound quality hurts my ears. I've already turned down the high end from my Equalizer and still it's too bright. Using headphones, nott a phone speaker. Phone speaker users can turn up their EQ if they can't hear it.

[@iko359]

Battery race is lost. We’re late. Much better to focus on recycling and be the first!

[@tooltalk]

Mass battery recycling not going to happen until 10-15 years down the road.

[@TheUrosm1982]

Rio Tinto, get out from Serbia! NO to lithium mining in Serbia!

[@sxyrx7]

as the video says its time. i will happen one day

[@TheUrosm1982]

@sxyrx7 Many things in history should have happened, but didn't...

[@_yonas]

That's why we not only have to reduce our GHG emissions but also reduce our resource footprint significantly over the coming decades. We are not only destroying our atmosphere, but our entire ecosphere.

[@Yuusou.]

Lithium will not be the future in the long term (e.g., a decade from now) and plenty of researchers are working on that. The goal is to reduce any need for limited, difficult to obtain and recycle materials. EU should actually work on recycling the materials we have circulating in our economies and create laws, which will ban single-use products with lithium-ion batteries in it (like those vapes) and fund programs and companies working on recycling solutions.

[@freedinner886]

Good video

[@adikurnia5364]

they trying to extort indonesia last year, and they sue us on WTO from refusing to give our resources/mining export

[@tooltalk]

export control is a big no no.

[@Jessica-go7tw]

The people who are protesting for not mining will protest for batteries

[@Foersom_]

8:34 Nonsense speaker. 47% more NOT 50 times more.

[@alileevil]

So let’s get this straight. Taking petrol from the desert is somehow less environmentally friendly than tearing up a grassland or a forest for lithium?

[@iulian2548]

Current lithium batteries are in no way environmently friendly, safe or cost effective. We need to develop new battery chemistry to make EVs worthwhile. The thermal run away issue only deters me from considering an EV. And the total environmental footprint of a new EV convinced me that driving fewer km on my current regular car is a more sensible choice. City driving at rush hour should be seriously taxed even for EVs.

[@unatwomey7112]

That's where something like the US inflation reduction act would help. The game is not over because the makers of safe reliable batteries will win out but European countries have no leaders who will lead.

[@FabioCapela]

Thermal runaway is mainly an issue with NMC and similar chemistries, it's not much of an issue for LFP chemistries. An NMC battery pierced by a nail (worst case scenario for a battery) is likely to explode, a modern LFP battery mostly just smolders for a bit. And even NMC chemistries are on the average safer than a car with a fuel tank (which includes hybrids); the chance of a car with a fuel tank catching fire by itself is dozens of times more than that of an EV with an NMC battery catching fire. Bottom line, if you want safety, you are much better with a car equipped with an LFP battery than with an ICE car. The thing about LFP, though, is that modern LFP batteries are very much a Chinese tech; China took a tech from the 90s that western companies didn't want to use, made a deal allowing local companies to freely use and improve the tech as long as they refrained from exporting it until the early 2020s, and improved it to the point it's better in almost everything than the NMC chemistries western companies still favor.

[@iulian2548]

@FabioCapela I am an insurance professional so quite aware of the risks. LFP is too recent technology and has to prove itself. NMC are predominant and IMO very risky in case of physical damage or self inflicted runaway . To conclude, the future is electric, but I find this haste towards a flawed battery technology undue.

[@FabioCapela]

@@iulian2548 LFP is already the dominating tech in China (and in countries where most of the EVs are Chinese, so most of the world except for G7, EU, and their closest allies). In fact, due to the sheer volume of EVs sold in China, we are already past the point where most new EVs globally come with LFP batteries. It's already a proven tech, the only reason it doesn't see more widespread use in countries that see China as a strategic rival is that nearly all of the expertise in building them, as well as most of the patents for the tech, are in the hands of Chinese entities. And while a fire in an NMC-equipped EV is much harder to contain, the chance of that fire happening in the first time is much lower. Data from US insurance companies puts the chance of an EV in the US (and, thus, with NMC batteries) catching fire at roughly 1/60th of the chance of an ICE car catching fire; yes, the average damage per incident is higher, but the chance of the incident happening in the first place is much lower.

[@iulian2548]

@@FabioCapela I am skeptical regarding the EV fire incidence against petrol cars data, but the proximity property loss an health hazard are in a different league. This corroborated with the fossil predominant grid makes me think twice whether the politicians pursue for electrification is justified. I would focus on making people drive less, a paradigm shift regarding where we choose to live and work is called for. Meanwhile we can mitigate with smarter policy like car sharing, EVs, but the problem is much deeper than what current bloated EVs can alleviate.

[@tride.design]

Thanks DW for mentioning the situation in Serbia and shameful acts of EU that ignores the will of Serbian people.

[@AlexusMaximusDE]

That's just Serbians being Serbian once more. Whether it's the Balkan wars and the celebration of war criminals or the ongoing bullshit trying to undermine Kosovos sovereignity. It's a rotten country with a rotten people. What's shameful is that the EU is even entertaining Serbias membership.

[@verygoodbrother]

Serbia is not part of the EU. It is the Serbian government doing a u-turn to give Rio-Tinto (a British-Australian company) a mining licence.

[@margeert3952]

Wait until you’re part of Russia…

[@Languslangus]

Not the Gov. DW misrepressented that part, it was the courts that overturned the gov decision.

[@miguelghs]

What you said makes no sense.

[@ScreechingBagel]

co-opting "NIMBYism" to talk about people not wanting mining projects feels... gross

[@Slihy]

Lost before it even begin. And now introduces sanctions to anyone who owns it. Bite the bullet. Cars are already way too expensive.

[@vlhc4642]

There is no lithium battery war, EU didn't lose anything because EU never even qualified to compete. Europe's problem is total ignorance of the subject matter: - Lithium mineral is cheap, it's not about the mineral, its about the processing and the processing technology - Its not about money, it's about knowing what to spend on, there is literally nobody in Europe, not in government, not in think tanks, not anywhere, who knows what to invest in. - Europe wants quick solutions when nothing is quick, China didn't invest in batteries and EVs yesterday. - China operates on meritocracy, Europe operates as a corruption aristocracy under a facade of democracy, until Europe solve their corruption problem, no competent leaders will ever come to power and no long term plans can ever be made.

[@funny-kg9go]

Please release this documentary on DW Hindi in Hindi

[@TheMighty_T]

Not really. Lithium is becoming a less essential part of battery making going forward thanks to sodium-ion technologies. China had the early lead in all battery tech and got the market share due to the Lithium-ion chemistry in particular, but the overall much better Sodium-ion chemistry is still there to be shared out and developed by all technology and manufacturing strong nations (that is most of western nations so we don't have to give it to China only). In short, because of the emerging (better) Sodium-ion chemistry, Lithium is less essential than it was thought a few years ago. And for those that might not know why Sodium-ion is "better", you can easily find info online.

[@adityac3239]

provided Sodium ion will reach the energy density that currently is being achieved by LithiumNMCs. As its current density stand sodium ion will be dominant for more stationary applications and low end mobility

[@tooltalk]

China never had lead on battery tech; Japan and Korea did. China was very late to the battery market. China had the lead in refining.

[@adamsaciid4919]

@@tooltalk actually they're leading, also japan😃lol that's totally nonsense

[@tooltalk]

@@adamsaciid4919 china leads in low-end cheap battery tech aka lfp

[@dogbreath6974]

​@@adityac3239Sodium batteries are used in Evs, personally I don't care about energy density, as long as I have enough range for my short journey, that's all that matters to me, I don't need an Ev with 300 miles range.

[@TheJensss]

The EU are struggling because of the heavy and costly bureaucracy and taxes.

[@duartecosta9801]

EU should focus it's efforts in sodium batteries, not lithium!

[@stephenkidgell8734]

The EU is nuts on this project.

[@PistonAvatarGuy]

How is that even a question? And why not worry about where your solar panels are coming from?

[@otkrivanjeistorije]

You will not mine lithium in Serbia, you are not even aware of how stubborn the Serbian people are. All the money you gave the Serbian government to lobby for Rio Tinto is for nothing. The vast majority is against it.

[@margeert3952]

Serbia likes Russia… wait until Putin is your president… there will not be protests.

[@caskaptein9889]

This is exactly what I was afraid of. We try to save our current ways of living while this what is destroying the planet. We have global warming because of too much CO2 in the atmosphere, so we try to find other energy sources and carriers. However, the problem is the sheer amount energy thay we are using. Our current living standards are way above the earth’s methabolism and simply cannot sustain this. Also, the term “sustainable” is used very losely in this video. The word “sustainable” should ONLY be used for things can be “sustained” for over 1000s of years! Batteries can not be recycled and is linearly built and wasted. This is NOT sustainable!

[@DanBurgaud]

Sorry EU, you are too late in the Lithium War. But you could power your EV with Hopium.

[@firdaus99031]

Or copium😂

[@unatwomey7112]

Other countries don't have the manufacturing reputation for safety. Its a matter of trust. The European countries will respond. My bets on Poland as the starter. And lithium is only good for cars and phones.

[@SonnyDarvishzadeh]

I don't think EU is losing just the battery war. This ancient style living has already lost the entire tech war. Having lived in fast-paced countries, Europe feels like living in caves. Best EU can do is to resort to increasing import tariffs.

[@Rockall57]

Na-Ion .....forget about lithium...we need battery storage like a hole in the wall..😂

[@fungo6631]

Europe should focus on SODIUM ion batteries.

[@FabioCapela]

China's lead in Sodium is even larger than its lead in Lithium; the technology became minimally viable when China was already all-in on battery, so China invested heavily on research from the very start, as opposed to Lithium where China came late to the party. Though I guess extraction becomes a non-issue as sodium can be cheaply produced as a side-product from desalinating sea water.

[@Shelorygod]

European policy is to close local production due to environmental and work ethic excuses while buying from countries that don't care about any ethics...

[@dondekeeper2943]

Forgot Lithium! Dilithium is the future

[@steve_is_my_name]

The EU are importing lithium in every EV. 98% of lithium can be recycled from old batteries. The focus will be on recycling.

[@PeregArBagol]

"And France's very creatively named "lithium de France" " 😂😂

[@verygoodbrother]

This video fails to mention anything around recycling. If the EU are behind in production maybe they can get ahead with recycling batteries. The EU produces excess renewable energy with little capacity for storage. So why not create a demand for local battery by subsidising grid battery storage. You will boost local battery production, gain a valuable infrastructure asset, will be funding local talent and foster new innovation.

[@tooltalk]

Nobody wants recycling plants in their backyard either.

[@traudesuppan]

The only change is to swap to natrium batteries

[@vangelissotiropoulos7365]

Europe equals bureaucracy, it’s pointless

[@yongjianyi3556]

EU can buy lithium if they want to. There is no export control on lithium from countries that mines it. China buys, refine and processes most of lithium is because their industry needs it.

[@amandagrant4331]

The EU hopes to produce lithium by itself, and at the same time, they also hope that the price from China will not be lower than that from the EU. Almost impossible.