Elite Dangerous On Yaw VR Gameplay & Final YawVR Review!

[@CasandChary]

EDIT: Received a few comments on this so I wanted to say I'M SORRY for mounting the joystick wrong 😭 I'm not a pro space sim player. In Elite, it looked right to place it that way so that's why I did it. I'll mount it right next time 😉 Let me know if you are going to get the Yaw Motion Simulator. Or if you already got one, what are your thoughts? It supports us if you watch the entire video, but for those in lack of time, the timestamps are in the description! ♥

[@dtz1000]

I need to find an arcade that has one so i can test it out first before deciding if i want it. Are there any in London that have it?

[@Xeylo]

@@dtz1000 well its quite new... i dont assume they'll have it this fast

[@dtz1000]

@@Xeylo I wouldn't call it new. They started shipping it to buyers over a year ago.

[@Xeylo]

@@dtz1000 still, im guessing most arcades wont buy something like that, probably something a little bit more known, or just cheaper

[@TheMoonKingdom]

Wow, Elite Dangerous sure looked like fun! I definite want to get the Yaw, but it seems like I should wait for them to workout some of the minor problems. I think an overheating problem should be taken seriously considering the price. It would be awesome to use this with Star Wars Squadrons though:)

[@suavevalen]

Another excellent video. Knowledge, insight and honest opinion without unnecessary spin. Yours have been the absolute best reviews of the YawVR product. Thank you.

[@CasandChary]

Glad to hear!

[@blackjack6259]

I almost became a kickstarter for this product, I was going to get the pro version. This has been the best honest review I have seen on the Yaw VR so far, thank you!

[@noelr9376]

This is the best review of the Yaw VR yet. Thank you I agree with you on all points. Also thanks for the videos, they are holding me down while I patiently wait for my Yaw to ship.

[@RLReagan]

How long did it take to get it?. Its telling me 30-50 days. Not so bad I suppose.

[@noelr9376]

Lee Reagan It took 6 weeks. Once you get the shipping notification it takes a few days to get to your door. They have great customer service.

[@motoarzan791]

THAT SEAT And the new Microsoft flight simulator 2020. Yes, they are making it their flight simulator VR compatible

[@noelr9376]

Yes it looks like it will be a VR exclusive for the HP Reverb G2 at first. I’m thinking about getting the G2 but I hate this practice. It doesn’t help the small VR community. Also since Yaw VR relies on externally tracked motion compensation it looks like this will not work with the G2 alone which is terrible. There are ways to use index controllers with inside out headsets but it’s very expensive. Hacks on top of hacks and money to get it to work.

[@benbrooks566]

plus the pimax 8k with wide fov and a $5000 computer and i will be broke and happy

[@CasandChary]

Yep! YawVR is already working on a plugin for MSFT's flight sim. I need practice!

[@Sinn3246]

@@noelr9376 I think there is an attempt at a VR industry standard so you can play whatever with any headset

[@noelr9376]

Sinister Squirrel There is an attempt at some type of standardization, but the Yaw VR chair uses an Open VR plugin that works on Steam only. Since it looks like the game will be available through WMR I don’t think it will work unless that’s just temporary and they eventually release it on Steam.

[@Sam-tx4jz]

"The chair is surprisingly confortable with my butt" Good to know cas! Good to know 😂

[@CasandChary]

: D

[@kiekienicole9578]

The yaw vr motion simulator looks so cool I can not wait to get one.

[@kiekienicole9578]

I'm saving up for one😊

[@13orrax]

it needs to be more integrated into games for me other wise im afraid its like trying to use a mouse on an xbox and its not the same

[@PinkGirl2242]

@@13orrax I have a joystick and throttle called hotas that works fully with the yawvr. Also there's different customised software that you can use too like SRS (sim racing studio) supports more games and it's £50 for lifetime licence, premium subscription for more additional benefits is £15 a year. Simtools which I haven't used so I can't say much about but it's widely used in the motion simulator scene.

[@benbrooks566]

Now "it must be their gaming chair" isn't a sarcastic phrase anymore.

[@danielbens8020]

This is the future!

[@cassowarygaming2163]

Phenomenal video! In less than 20min I learned a huge amount of information that would have otherwise taken me hours by browsing other websites. Thanks for the excellent content!

[@lightprincess-manawolfgami1013]

Woo!!! Cas, I'm so proud you finally learned to fly without crashing into everything. Great video, love the YAW VR, will someday have to get one :)

[@CasandChary]

So much easier with a flight stick! :P

[@mbrsart]

Definitely looks like something I'd get for Elite: Dangerous. Hopefully it'll still be a thing by the time I can budget for it lol

[@j.avance9031]

When your an Elite vet and you watch this video you can't help but scream out into the black. "Use your vertical and lateral thrusters! Switch your primary firing group and use your pulse laser! Change full pips to weapons! What are you doing?!" Then you remember those early days when you didn't know anything either, and crashed into an asteroid. Good times.

[@CasandChary]

I need a teacher 🤣 Honestly I love how this game seems so skill based! I'll give it a try

[@j.avance9031]

@@CasandChary Alright don't be surprised when I write a whole book in your comments to explain the three things I just mentioned. First of all the best teacher is definitely experience and I don't know how your buttons are set up, but with my HOTAS flight stick on the thrust controller. (The one that makes you go forward and backward) there are four different buttons. The two large ones on the back side by side are your horizontal thrusters (I even had to correct myself from my first comment) they allow you to move the ship left and right. Right next to them are two buttons that are up and down from each other and these are your vertical thrusters allowing you to move the ship up and down. Combining the downward thruster with pitch, (pulling backward on the flight stick) allows you to change direction very quickly and follow an enemy in combat. Changing primary firing groups is a bit of a pain because every cmdr (commander) has a personal preference. In that training mission the pulse laser is set to a different firing group. You change it by holding square and pressing the downward thrust button the tiny button on the back of the thrust controller. This will allow you to use your pulse laser and take out those pesky shields much faster. When you have your own ship though outside of the tutorial hold square and press right on the tiny joystick on the flight stick. Scroll through the menu until you find the one that says firing groups. From here you can edit them to your preference. I personally prefer to have my lasers set to secondary fire and my guns set to primary. That way if you want to conserve bullets and just fire lasers that's an option. Also putting them in the same firing group helps a lot. Don't put your scanners and stuff in the same firing group as your weapons or you ship will keep scanning things every time you pull the trigger on an enemy and you could potentially overload your ships power reactor. Now pips you can change your pips by pressing the small joystick left right and up respectively. Your pips are near the middle of your display in the ship. It normally looks like two dots on each wep.. eng.. sys.. when in combat I usually prefer to put four pips to weapons and two to systems. The only problem with that is without any pips to engine your ship slows down a lot and if the enemy gets a good unshielded shot at your thrusters he could damage them and send you into a uncontrollable spiral that could make you sick in VR. However being slow is not recommended for PVP combat. But with full pips to weapons you do considerably more damage and with two to systems if your shield gets deactivated they still refill moderately fast. That's only a few bits of advice. Flying your own ship is even more complicated and it's best to learn most things on your own. I could talk for hours and hours and as I was writing this a thousand more things popped into my head that I want to tell you but I can't write it all here. Best advice is finish the tutorial missions and give the full game a try because when you are flying like an expert pulling off daring moves in the middle of an asteroid field and shooting down pirates there's no other game more satisfying. Good luck Cmdr and welcome to Elite.

[@neurokinetik64ES]

We were all harmless, penniless, and aimless once... One tip is to bind your horizontal and vertical thrusters to an analog thumbstick on your throttle, if it has one. This makes their use easy to coordinate for when you are trying to land, for example, or doing more advanced dogfighting maneuvers.

[@mohamedabidi9115]

you should have gone in cqc mode with the sidewinder

[@johnwhitford2400]

Great thorough review! ED is exactly what I am considering the YAW for - and Flight Sim 2020. Love your channel!

[@Serxne_]

Turn Signal is good for figuring out the yaw limit. Most of the time, I'll just park up somewhere and spin to unwind my cable.

[@computer__eyez]

Thank you Cas. My favorite genre is space flight along w/ RPG’s. So I deeply appreciate this review. Sadly, seems Yaw does not provide a frictionless consumer entry product. I have the income to buy this, but that hassle to setup / heating turns me away.. Has to be plug and play. I’ll pass until improved or something else arrives. How sad, we’re so close to this.

[@PinkGirl2242]

Not many motion simulators are plug and play. Yawvr are working to make it as much plug and play by their own game engine that's currently being updated.

[@youtubeairways8646]

5:11 great that they have DCS world as an option; could make for some great dogfighting

[@damovee]

i was gonna mention how my face is the best vr simulator. but im not gonna do that because i really enjoy your videos. keep up the good work

[@Tyrielwood]

Great video like always! :)

[@Sam-tx4jz]

Hey tyriel 😳

[@CasandChary]

[@sashasscribbles]

Damn, this thing with Mario Kart could be really cool

[@rev_dude]

*gets hit by shell*

[@YawVR]

@@rev_dude LOL

[@gopherchucksgamingnstuff2263]

Thank you Cas, the knocking you out of the game in Dirt Rally would chap my pickle. I don't think Assetto Corsa would have issues, as I have done drifting and doughnuts sitting on my Door in VR . You can get out of the car and walk around it if you have space. But I also have 680 hrs dogfighting in elite so it would be a riot to get thrown around bounty hunting on an ice ring.

[@MarcusYangNilsson]

Love this channel, keep up the amazing work!

[@highspeedfistfight]

I can't imagine the amount of spew that would be swishing through the air if I tried this out.

[@eaglecott3806]

I think they should have a spin lap counter. So you could test how many laps you can spin your headset before the wire risks getting tangled. Then just warn with a beep, voice message or something so you can spin it back and reset the spin counter.

[@jeanbutinfrench]

i see it only doing well with wealthy enthusiasts but it doesnt seem refined enough to ship and should in no possible way hurt the player, i see this more as an offer for big vr companies to bet on, maybe valve or htc could buy them out

[@marcludwig6215]

you should use "Cable Guardian" on steam. You can set how many rotations before it notifies you. It beeps in the ear of the direction you rotated. And it's FREE.

[@mako9673]

It looks to me like the feedback for the YawVR is opposite to the perceived Gforces. The trick to a motion sim is to use the natural gravity to simulate motion g's. So if you accelerate, it should pitch back to you feel pushed back into your seat, simulating that acceleration. Same thing with deceleration. It is hard to see it for sure though from this video.

[@trippinsciko]

Love the thoroughness, great promotional video!

[@chuckd909]

Do have any thoughts on the disassembly and storage space for this Yaw VR? I.e. How difficult is it to dismantle and put back together, and roughly how much space is required to store when not in use?

[@Roughpaws_Studio]

I haven't got one yet (getting mine either late this year or early next year) but from what I've seen, once you know what you're doing, it should only take you half an hour or so to assemble and disassemble I reckon.

[@CasandChary]

If you get the standard edition (so without backrest) then it's easy! Takes about 5 minutes to take off the footrest/holder and then you can turn the shell around and place it on top of the bottom part, like this: static.wixstatic.com/media/d0ff1b_3b64e075718d492bb76d86e96502bb58~mv2.jpg/v1/crop/x_0,y_153,w_599,h_331/fill/w_718,h_395,al_c,lg_1,q_80/small.webp The Pro edition is not easy for storage as it's a pain removing the backrest.

[@mrfahrenheit94]

When you used the Oculus Quest, was there motion compensation? I saw that you mounted the Index controller to the back of the chair in the earlier example but since the Quest uses its cameras to track the controller, I wonder how it could be achieved (since I didn't see a Quest controller mounted on the front during the roller coaster demo)? Thanks for the great video

[@Jemmies]

The controller in the back is only used for when the chair is rotating. And in the rollercoaster it isn't.

[@CasandChary]

There was no motion compensation needed with the Quest game. In another rollercoaster game where you don't yaw 360 degrees (NoLimits2), you do need compensation. So I'm not sure how the devs of Epic Roller Coasters did it :)

[@KentHambrock]

Can the right platform be moved to the left? I play Elite Dangerous with flight stick in the middle and throttle on the left.

[@CasandChary]

Yes, you can mount the plate on the other side too.

[@Roughpaws_Studio]

@@CasandChary Great video as always! Just wondering if the cable for the T-Flight X can stretch across enough so that you can mount the stick on the right hand side and the throttle on the left hand side instead of in the middle? Or are you restricted by the cable length so that at least one of the two needs to be in the middle?

[@CasandChary]

@@Roughpaws_Studio Hmm I mounted it already so I can't say for sure but I do think the cable is long enough. It'll just be stretched tight a bit and might make it a bit harder to get in the chair as you need to maneuver your feet under the wires then :o

[@adrisanchez]

Hi ! very good video. I have a question that is very important to me, do you know what is the final price that I can buy yaw2 in store?

[@RobertShane]

I never knew something like this exists. It looks awesome!

[@twilson348]

4:42 Does calibration have to be done after every game, after switching between games or only when the Yaw is turned on?

[@CasandChary]

Only when you turn the Yaw on

[@twilson348]

@@CasandChary Thanks

[@brettcameratraveler]

How long was the latency from joystick > to movement? Was it noticeable and unrealistic?

[@CasandChary]

Latency isn't bad. Not noticeable.

[@kirkwagner461]

Good review. Well done.

[@IAmKnightsDawn]

How did you get your floor green? Paint?

[@Vanpotheosis]

Is there a way to put the throttle on the other side of the seat or are the only mounting options: center, and right side?

[@sysadmin9396]

I am getting it. Thanks for the review.

[@AtlanticPOG]

Hello nice video keep up the great work im gonna save up for one

[@lacedchemist1295]

Does anyone have any info regarding the vibration feedback on the pro model? Can't find anyone mentioning it. Thanks for great review Cas!

[@PartyQuest]

i already watched the video where you recommend that lamp, and i wanted to buy, but it's no longer available.

[@neurokinetik64ES]

Let me add a useful comment about bindings, since they are such an important part of any flight sim, and setting them up logically (at least logically to YOU) is vital. Here are the main bindings I use (note that you don't actually have to bind EVERYTHING, especially not right away - you can add functions as needed as you progress and add new things to your ship). These are the most important ones I have mapped. Most of the rest I just do by looking at the side menus and navigating that way. Stick trigger - Primary Fire, and select menu option Stick left thumb button - secondary fire, and cancel menu option Stick POV hat switch - change power distribution (left for systems, up for engines, right for weapons, down to reset to even distribution) Stick upper right thumb button - target ahead Stick lower right thumb button - cycle next target Throttle pinky button - toggle reverse Throttle middle button - FSD toggle Throttle index buttton - boost Throttle index finger POV hat - left/right - cycle fire groups, down - toggle hardpoints Throttle upper hat switch - menu navigation, x/y pan in galaxy map Throttle analog hat switch - lateral thrusters, z pan in galaxy map Throttle 8 way hat switch - down - landing gear toggle, up - mode toggle, back - cargo scoop toggle Throttle lower hat switch - page select in menus, zoom in/out elsewhere There are other things that may need to be mapped depending on the role you are using for your ship, such as SRV control, fighter deployment, etc. But I have a separate button box for those.

[@richardmetellus2336]

Wonder if this works with vtol vr

[@dmark24]

now it's been working for a few months and it's really fun I have been waiting for this day since I have this motion simulator :)

[@bobbyduke777]

how do you connect your joystick or steering wheel wires? if it rotates I don't see how without some sort of blue tooth. wires hanging with one dogfight would twist up and knock the wires stand over

[@jamesderiter4370]

How does one manage hotas cables they're not as long as headset cables

[@burger1113]

The idea for this product is really good and they did a pretty good job with the production, (aside from some quality control issues) but they really missed out on lots of features. The most disappointing one is the lack of rigidity in the mounting system for wheels and pedals. Maybe we could put something together with aluminum profiles.

[@gir5o1]

Why would you set it up with the throttle in the center instead of the flight stick?

[@GT1GT]

Of course the overheating issues are very serious, but funny enough what's the deal with having to put a controller on it? I and many others might not own any bay stations with controllers. I think this might be a very serious matter, almost as much as having the engines overheat. For the amount of money why doesn't the Yaw work without a controller and bay stations? Can you please elaborate on this more and let all your viewers and I know will this device work in full capacity eventually ***without Bay stations and controllers? Also with the Yawvr Standard addition, "it being 60W less power and not as much of a stronger structure," might not work, or last as long if being more on the heavy side, "this might be a concern", or not to worry about it?

[@CasandChary]

Fair critical questions! And you are right, although, this is a problem not only for YawVR but for all motion simulators out there. I think there may be workarounds without base stations like I'm using the Oculus Quest with just a Bluetooth connection and it works fine, so maybe YawVR can build something here? I'm actually not sure - I'll need to ask. I haven't tested this with a different inside-out-tracking headset yet, but I will research if there's a solution out there. As for your standard edition question, I can't answer that with certainty as I don't have that version to test with.

[@GT1GT]

@@CasandChary Maybe you can test it with other apps like Dirt 2 and NL2 and see if the quest works with Virtual desktop and Rift S and let me know :)

[@charliewaters5289]

There is now a heat sensor and cooling fan (and it's free for existing customers).

[@domothepilot]

did you get more or less sick with the yaw vr in ED?

[@rextransformation7418]

I wonder if it works with the past game "NASCAR Racing Season 2003", am more interested in that... On a side note: I wonder how it will be with direct drive wheels as they are flipping strong machines (well, if set up to high % of course).

[@TheZorch]

Star Citizen had VR support experimentally very early on before the PU was playable, and will get full VR support in beta (sometime around 2022). Next year the game is switching from DX11 over to Vulkan both to be ready for VR and for improved client rendering. The Vulkan update would have been out this year but this whole C19 nonsense has forced a lot of features to be delayed until next year. We'd have the Squadron 42 beta and the Stanton System would finally be complete allowing CIG to begin adding new star systems starting with Pyro, and that would only take a few months because the tools they built to make Stanton have seriously streamlined and sped up their workflow.

[@piedpiper1172]

Man, it’s stunning to see a full blown case of Stockholm Syndrome in the wild like this. Nature truly is beautiful.

[@TheZorch]

@@piedpiper1172 And, ignorance is ugly.

[@illpoet13]

please do a video on open vr input thingy. the yawvr is pretty much unusable without it, and this video is the only information i can find on it anywhere

[@adrienhasell2038]

Looks very cool thinking about getting one

[@stevetb7777]

Great review! I would love to see this compared to the "Feel Three". Obviously the Feel Three is larger and more costly (base model is just over 3k)... but many people would consider that if it is far superior and have the space for it.

[@Wa_Ken]

which is the best vr headset for elite dangerous?

[@ANJIN79SAMMA]

I can’t wait to buy one these .....once I check out the over heating issue

[@peterfmodel]

This looks very interesting, but i suspect the integration needs to be cleaner before i would consider it. ON the other hand i will consider this as its does look rather exciting.

[@Shiny-Robot]

Nice review thanks

[@SweetCherryGrower]

Place a camera on the back of it...and you have a mix reallity video

[@CasandChary]

That's an awesome idea :)

[@Norwaynumber1]

Great review!

[@phantomx2003]

For your controllers did you have to add extensions to be able to reach your pc? I feel like cable management would be my biggest worry about purchasing this. Otherwise it looks pretty fun.

[@PinkGirl2242]

It'll just be usb 3.0 active extention cable

[@CasandChary]

Yes, you will need extension cables. Will depend on where you have your PC tho

[@peyotepete4903]

Looks awesome and fun!

[@rickytomczyk4046]

Ok this is very intriguing.. now only question: how long (active game hours) it lasts?

[@oxyhadron1120]

Pretty sure you plug it in to a powersocket so you can in theory play untill it breaks

[@Sinn3246]

Nice review, but am I the only one bugged by the HOTAS mounting locations... lmfao

[@surrealchemist]

I've heard of Cas and Chary... but Cas and Chairy??

[@BryanDenham]

does this work with DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) ?

[@Shiny-Robot]

Yes I believe it works with the standard aircraft for now

[@FeralLogic]

extremely good review.

[@danfors1333]

good review!

[@MagicPuncherGames]

Dang. I backed Feel Three on Kickstarter, which is basically a souped up version of this, but we are now well over a year past the expected shipping date, and not a word from the creator. Think the project is dead, along with my $3000

[@BRUXXUS]

Ooph..... $3000 is a LOT to lose on a Kickstarter..... I backed one thing on there for like $9 and the company took the money and ran. It sucks that Kickstarter doesn't have any backer protection.

[@zZKaZuRaZz]

You re not alone. I spent 4k usd for an upgraded version. Feel Three can go fuck themselves really. As of now I just paid the full retail price for Yaw VR pro. I expect Feel Three to deliver 2 years later at this rate. Even so, dont expect any results because Mark Townes is useless SOB :\

[@MagicPuncherGames]

@@zZKaZuRaZz Good to know I'm not alone on this sinking ship. Now we just need a string quartet to play us down, haha

[@zZKaZuRaZz]

@@MagicPuncherGames Dont forget to add on the good whiskey huhuhu :P Anyhoo, while awaiting for Feel Three news either to sink like Titanic due to Marks incompetence, or succeed, I do recommend getting this first aye to at least get yourself some fun time while waiting....no point constantly hounding that incompetent jerk Mark. :\ At least the waiting time will be fun rather than **wtf, wtf, wtf** constant waiting :\

[@Kryojenix]

Ikea Regolit now goes to a 404 page - I'm guessing it's been discontinued? Or maybe just in my country? ='-(

[@I_am_not_a_rob0t]

What's your name in Elite, commander?

[@ronm6585]

Thanks for the review Cas. I don't think I would spend the money on this.

[@BRUXXUS]

Yay! The game I've been waiting for. This thing looks super cool and the motion control design is super smart. But.... for the price, it sure seems like there's a LOT of extra setup, programs, and poor instructions. Even if I had an extra $2000 lying around, I probably wouldn't buy one of these. I'd more likely try building my own. At least buying software and dealing with setup and all that makes sense with a homebrew solution.

[@EzequielBaltazar]

I just don't get that awful position for the thrust stick.

[@TripDarlin]

Is it compatible with Star Wars?

[@Shiny-Robot]

It may not use telemetry as EA may not release that data. But it does work with squadrons through control inputs so just need to download a decent profile for it or make your own.

[@SnaptrixGaming]

I think with these things, people tend to wait to buy them used because of the high price.

[@gregscott4368]

I want to see a big guy like myself use it.

[@campbecd]

I wonder how long she would spin without puking with flight assist off. That was sorta painful to watch. That said, it was a good demonstration of the responsiveness of the device.

[@metalsteel5631]

Damn 2k is so cheap for something so awesome! Too bad I don't have any space setup for a vr room. I already have an entertainment room, and that space is filled.

[@ArnaudMEURET]

Sound review. 👍The software side of the Yaw seems reeeeally half-baked. Hope they make it through the next few years until it’s matured enough.

[@IamtheWV17]

Yaw and squadrons when

[@gopherchucksgamingnstuff2263]

How loud is it? I get a ton of crap from my wife just from my G29 at 2AM

[@EzequielBaltazar]

This would be great for helicopters simulation.

[@gustavosantos106]

It needs a Z axis :D Not bad tho.

[@cozymonk]

Probably not realistic without gravity in space. But, elite isn't 100% realistic anyway, even if E:D's space is mostly Newtonian. Looks fun. I'd probably turn it way down for space sims and up to 1:1 for flight sims.

[@littleghost]

Definitely gona buy this....when i strike lottery 😂

[@DandBGhostHunters]

You’ve got the controls the wrong way round... stick goes in the middle and throttle to the side

[@yonglee9997]

I love your German accents~! Thank you for the review.

[@ozramblue117]

Omg I want that!

[@nawaffleplayz1352]

How much did that cost I had to be SUPER EXPENSIVE

[@CasandChary]

02:11

[@thecrashbox3506]

Well done.

[@JohnH5528]

As others have said, this looks to be more an enthusiasts 'project'. It doesn't look like a consumer product, and there is just too much fiddling required. Also....the additional 'Pro' features - and extra $500? Some of that should be standard, and there's no way that stuff is costing anything like $500 to make - more like $100 - so why the massive mark up? And tying a controller on to the back to make some games work properly? That's only going to work with lighthouse tracking, right? It's pricing itself out of the consumer market IMO. I do wish them well though - it's a superb innovative idea - just needed more polish (and a realistic sale price).

[@GUSSTASS]

Mde in China????

[@arcadealchemist]

lol throtal mounted in the middle.... gahahaaahahah

[@GabeBars]

And I don't even have a VR headset yet... 😭 Very good review nevertheless!

[@BenRobinson1974]

Your stick should be in the center (or on the right) with the throttle on the left - your setup there is super weird!

[@timmy2310]

Cool but I’ll wait till they figure out all the obvious bugs and issues.

[@orun0810]

height and fat shamed by a VR chair ...Damn.

[@infamoushacker4chan883]

At least one of those can be changed with enough dedication.