What the FOC?? (ARCHERY, WATCH BEFORE YOU BUILD ARROWS)

[@ElkShape]

Thumbs up for more SVA videos 👍... 🏹

[@chasehaynie879]

I've seen video after video of a deer jumping the string on lighter setups and i don't belive that at 20 or 30 yards we are achieving arrow speeds high enough to counter the reflexes of a whitetail. I understand the school of thought here and tons of deer get taken every year with light set ups, but personally i will take improved penetration and a more quiet bow. Happy hunting guys!

[@1919Egan]

At the 8:30 mark he discusses that it’s not in an attempt to “beat” the deer as that is inevitable. But,,, that when the deer inevitably does jump, the extent of the animals movement prior to impact is reduced! I shoot a 425gr but it’s 8.8gpi. Allowing me to still have 150gr up front. Other setup is 560gr 🤗, but with a 10.6gpi shaft Same diameter. although quieter, there is an audible delay in time to impact at 50-60yds

[@weldermike7017]

@@1919Egan Exactly, and not just my opinion but from experience. I also didn't like the trajectory loss that fell off big time. If a animal sneaks in on me and my sight is set for 20yds and I know the animal is 25yds and I have no time to fiddle around I would rather be able to shoot and hold 2'' higher because the bow shoots flat rather than have to hold 9" higher because the trajectory suffered so much, and the further out you go the worse it gets etc etc.

[@hunterwise275]

They kill me with the speed thing. I shoot a recurve a touch over 160 fps. If it’s past 25 yards for whitetail or hogs I just aim a bit lower. Don’t shoot past 30 but with modern compounds I don’t know why anyone is worried about speed. 450fps isn’t going to be fast enough to beat a deer so adjust to it

[@theincredible9168]

The difference on my bowtech, from 370 grain arrow vs a 570 grain arrow, is 5 decibels. I shot a doe at 25 yards with the 370 grain arrow, she took off running and the other deer just stood there. I've noticed that 98% of the time a deer jumps the string, they are looking at the hunter.

[@dylanstoddart298]

I just listened to a a deer biologists at Georgia, he did a lot of studies on deer vision and he thinks when deer jump the string it has to do with movement rather than the sound the bow makes…whether he’s right or wrong, it’s something to think about for sure

[@zb5715]

I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned from your channel in the last 6 months, thanks a million for giving us this content

[@ElkShape]

thanks homie 🙏

[@darrenoerlemans7358]

Good to see the helical fletch. Most archers don't believe in it. I have used helical for 35 years and never had flight issues with fixed blade broadheads.

[@lancewoody6294]

Imo a heavier set up makes a quieter bow.. maybe this helps with jumping the string.

[@aaronunderwood3545]

ABSOLUTELY has helped me this year. 725 grain arrow. Silent off the bow. I agree 110%

[@rtremaine]

This is the best FOC video I've seen yet, thanks! I've been waffling on the details of my next arrow build and this was pretty illuminating. I could watch about 10 more hours Josh talk nothing but FOC! Would love to hear more about specific arrow builds, what has worked, what hasn't, etc. Keep up the great content!

[@ElkShape]

thanks bro 🙏

[@brettu45]

I agree, I just ordered the test kit from sirius and am now wishing that I would have ordered my arrows an inch shorter.

[@mikeeagan1307]

From listening to your informative video I can see that you and the Ranch Fairy and Edward Ashby are not Close Friends

[@ElkShape]

Josh is plenty aware of all the Ashby studies... he quotes it in several of our videos... Dan has killed over 30 public land elk with his bow, that's real life experience - Tim

[@mikeeagan1307]

@@ElkShape I enjoy listening to anyone that has knowledge and especially those who have knowledge combined with experience. Anyone who has hunting experience has come to understand that you can be lethal with any setup but it does matter where you hit them with that setup. Pass through hits happen to Beginners with Beginner's setups. But those that Love the Hunt, Love to Tinker. We Tinker because we are striving for Performance and Perfection. The Fact being that Heavy arrow mass Helps Maintain High Momentum throughout flight. Speed suffers but Mass remains Constant throughout flight. No Bowhunter can predict what shot angle will be given to him nor where it will land, so be prepared. I have come to the conclusion that throwing a rock causes more damage than a straw. Fact... A single blade single bevel broadhead setup is more lethal than any Multi blade setup. What comes to mind immediately is how much time and money has been spent and the Facts still don't Change. But look at how much fun and understanding that has been created Thanks for your efforts and your videos

[@richardlarson6403]

Elk Shape wow 30

[@DEMartin673]

Most of the hogs ranch fairy is shooting at aren’t much over 17 to 20 yards.

[@matthewkyle2534]

The ranch fairy guy seems like a complete tool. I tried watching one of his videos and I couldn’t bring myself to take him serious. Dude is a clown.

[@rasheelliott2723]

Hell yeah, Josh! I shoot the RIP TKO's with 15% FOC and hitting about 278 fps and they are legit. Also, Dan, you remind me of an outdoorsman version of Jason Khalipa. Keep up the awesome content and love the channel!

[@ElkShape]

I never put that together but they could be cousins from another mother.. lol - TC

[@flatrockpharm4022]

Dr Ashby is the best info on this. 15% is still low IMHO

[@ElkShape]

that's cool, do your thing

[@gsnicholas8522]

Ranch Fairy has great foc info too. He’s on board with Dr. Ashby, and has lots of real world experience with this.

[@jonbrown9490]

Seems like a lot of people forget that the first 2 things Ashby recommends do not include FOC. They are perfect arrow flight and structural integrity. FOC is important, but not at the cost of the first 2. If you have a slightly lighter arrow that shoots perfect it will penetrate better than a heavy arrow with high FOC that corkscrews in the air.

[@stick__shooter]

Jon Brown Exactly! I love what Ranch Fairy is doing, but there are a lot of factors that go into the shot and penetration. If I was hunting on a feeder or from a stand and my longest shots were 30 yards, then shooting a 650 grain arrow is fine because I’m so close. Where I hunt elk and deer in Oregon I hunt from the ground and my shots could easily be 60 yards. What this video was saying makes sense, but that being said I think 425-450 is a hair light for elk. I try to get my setup right around 500 grains. Seems to be a good compromise.

[@jonbrown9490]

@@stick__shooter agreed. A lot of people must be skipping the videos where even he( the ranch fairy) harps on perfect arrow flight and tuning. I'm pretty sure he says specifically that it's your primary concern. My theory is that you can buy things to make a high FOC arrow set up( and companies do plenty of marketing for it)....but accuracy and tuning just flat out take time and work. People don't seem to be so " into" that these days.

[@lbhunter6341]

Mass plus FOC equals two holes...works like a charm...75 lb longbow, 900 grain total mass, 315 in the point...

[@ElkShape]

Glad you have found what works for you 🤘

[@islandpainter3964]

Longbows and recurve need alot of foc to fly well. Plus they generally shoot less poundage. Speed has never been a longbows strong point.

[@Hogheadsforbreakfast]

Wow, lots of knowledge being shared. I found this video because I was considering trying 150gr broadheads, however I’m already neck deep in my current arrow spine and I’m definitely not willing to start over, just can’t afford it. Currently shooting 60# @ 30” DL with 29”L 340/350 spine and 100gr broadheads, for a total weight of 383-396 and I get good penetration on whitetails and hogs @ 283 FPS. THANKS FOR SAVING ME SOME MONEY!

[@JerminPhoto]

wow haters gonna hate. I have watched a lot of YT channels on this topic. built my own FMJs last year with excellent results with the bow I was using. I need to adjust my arrows now as I have a new bow. everyone has different experience and views on everything. just watch and learn and tinker like Dan always says.

[@jedhuf7548]

A much needed revisit as I plan my next build.. Victory RIP XV for the win! Just need to figure out where I want to fall with weight. I’m thinking 420-430. I was down to 455 last season but want a little flatter shot. With these shafts it’s easy to still get over 15%FOC at that weight.

[@Guitardist]

It's always interesting to see the different solutions and answers people come to through life experience. Everyone has their own setups and reasons for it. I'd say Josh has some proof for his pudding with his hunting successes, and has found a way that works. I always enjoy looking at things from different angles. It helps broaden the spectrum. Thanks. Good luck this September fellas!

[@ElkShape]

Thanks you too!

[@CoachGoodwin23]

There is balance in all things. Heavy vs. Speed? Neither are the answer in totality - they are a relationship. I would agree with you guys, tinker your setup, know what works for your setup. I use to shoot 453 grain arrows and had success and many failures i.e. penetration, arrow flight, etc. I'm an elk hunter - big rocky mountain fun! And I tinker, so I spend countless hours tweaking, fine tuning arrows/bow, etc. I'm not a weekend warrior that shoots from time to time. I shoot 4 to 5 times a week. With that said, I've limited many variables like wraps, etc. Today I shoot 623 grains and have experienced many areas of success i.e. penetration, better stability in flight (better arrow flight), using fixed blade rather than mechanicals, etc. Did I lose speed? Yes, without question. But the other areas of success balanced that lose in speed. My success is not someone else's success. Do your thing ... practice, tinker, tweak, do what works for you! Great video, great info, great insight...

[@loganburke135]

Love the knowledge coming from SVA! This is something a lot of people need to hear!

[@ElkShape]

Josh is an archery gangster

[@michaelficarro2591]

The advantages to more FOC/weight greatly outweigh the loss you will have in trajectory IMO, especially if you hunt elk, which I don't..You will always get more momentum from a heavier set up from the same bow. The only thing velocity gets you is flatter trajectory, which can be important to some.

[@michaelficarro2591]

If it were true that animals will duck slow arrows primitive archers wouldn't kill anything lol. Plus heavier = quieter.....

[@ElkShape]

Josh was speaking to where he believes the sweet spot for FOC meets trajectory ... Dan has killed over 30 public land elk ... there's some knowledge in the room - TC

[@michaelficarro2591]

@@ElkShape I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL, I'm saying you can't deny physics.....If I hunted something potentially as big as elk on the regular I wouldn't use an arrow less than 550 grains especially if I had a shorter draw length or used less poundage. I'm not saying you have to go crazy with FOC and weight, but almost every aspect of an arrows killing potential is enhanced by both of those things.

[@jonesoutdoors9901]

@@toddlymburner5783 Funny you say the hunters lack the ability to put the arrow where it needs to be, yet the very thing josh talks about in the video is an animals ability to move therefore changing point of impact. P.S. I agree that hunters need to put the time in to be able to best place an arrow on any game animal.

[@garrettfairchild9949]

My best shooting arrows in recent years were 570gr with ~22% foc at 280fps (29.5”/70#) Perfect bareshaft flight to 70 yards, perfect broadhead flight to 100+. High quality, heavy components. So I really disagree that you lose too much velocity with heavier arrows and high foc. That’s person dependent. If you have a short draw and low poundage, sure, but that makes arrow mass and limited range even more important. The 12-15% mark has been debunked as “the best” for a long time. Easiest to attain, sure but there are a lot of benefits with higher percentages when done right and with the arrows on the market these days, it’s very easy to creep into that 17-20% range and still be around 500-550gr

[@ElkShape]

you're still sacrificing speed to get to that weight.. that is one of the main points he's trying to make.. also not saying you're wrong that you shot best with that setup.. he's talking to the masses about the best starting point, in his opinion.. shoot whatever shoot's best out of your rig homie

[@mikeeagan1307]

280fps!!! with 570 awesome I'm only getting 275 with a 480gr. at 17% @#70 So the readout says. Even though Velocity is everything in flight But it Really isn't. How far will you take a shot at a bull elk? Understanding trajectory and being even 5yards off and the drop, but with laser range finders, one can dial that 63 yard shot in on your $300 bow sights lol. Penetration is Essential

[@kelseymoss1984]

I’m not saying your wrong but I really would have to see the graft if your achieving those speeds at that weight... wow

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

@@kelseymoss1984 my thoughts exactly. Must have a 3"brace height. Lol

[@thebackforty939]

@@ElkShape your talking less than 1/2 a tenth of a second.....lol

[@run2september23]

Absolutely correct IMO, there is a balance between weight, acceptable trajectory and speed. My arrows are now in the 420 to 440 range, 14% ish FOC and shoot very well. Thanks for shedding some light on the mega FOC/ Weight frenzy that seems to have overtaken the archery world. To me trajectory/ arrow arch is also very important, a lot of my shots are in relatively tight windows and if my arrow is climbing to the outer atmosphere to get to 50 yards it's a waste of my time and more time for something to go wrong down range. Good stuff, thanks.

[@MikeyWoomer]

Test a balanced 600 grain arrow vs a 600 grain foc arrow..

[@ElkShape]

great idea

[@humbledb4jesus]

i'm new at hunting, just got my record expunged in 2018 and have decided that xbow hunting is something a 60yr can get into and still have fun....i am watching, learning, and understanding what's involved (i have a degree in astro so i fucking love this shit) - so i am not a complete newb (well, i am - but trying hard not to) in the debate of lighter vs heavier arrows, i saw a vid about a rash of limb splintering in high speed xbows (i have an amped 425). he postulated that the recommend weight is the absolute minimum... and at that minimum weight, there are still extraneous forces that will simply turn back into the limbs...if you use a heavier arrow (he goes up to over 500 grains), those extraneous forces will be taken up by the arrows, thus extending the life of the xbow...

[@csrmrno7]

Your videos have been such a help. Thank you for continuing to release these!

[@ElkShape]

we are trying our best 🙏

[@aaronunderwood3545]

I’m a New York whitetail hunter. Never see a shot past 40 yards. I run 725 grains with 15% FOC. Off of a ventum 33 at 29.5DL and 70#DW. I do believe deer text less harshly to my bow because it’s very very quiet due to the heavy arrow. String doesn’t have all that excess energy going into the string stop. My arrows are absolute beasts when it comes to penetration. Multiple deer this year out to 35 yards, all pass through with no question. Blasted through a shoulder as well on a quartering away exit. I’m going to lighten up this year to 600 grains and 19% FOC. I like to tinker. Maybe my opinion will change at some point. But for now and for hunting white tails and turkeys, I’m gonna stay heavy. I know where my arrow will be after shooting a white tail, and I most certainly will never see a turkey fly away with one of my arrows.

[@scooterdogg7580]

31 inch 2219 two blade broadhead no idea weight lol just works very good for me and my old ways , I've never been more than 30yards max that I can recall

[@teamflanneloutdoors5631]

How did we kill all those animals back in the day of aluminium arrows and round wheel bows? How do traditional guys kill animals with they're slow, heavy F.O.C. setups? @ #themoreyouknow

[@ruebencaballero9511]

Awesome videos guys. Sucks that I have a 26.5 inch draw and my speeds aren’t that great. Always tinkering though trying to find balance.

[@ElkShape]

RUEBEN - thanks bro

[@zhickman338]

I think Valkyrie makes the heavy FOC mid weight arrow possible. I had a 550 grain shaft at 20 percent FOC. Victory VAP 250, 28.5 CTC. 250 up front. 282 fps out of 31in 70# VXR

[@ElkShape]

cool cool - I think Josh was speaking to where he believes the sweet spot for FOC meets arrow trajectory.. as in there's diminishing returns beyond 15% because of the speed loss.. that's what I gathered - TC

[@406unltd3]

282 isn’t a diminished return. That’s movin plenty fast

[@ngnmech]

What I have encountered over the years, as carbon arrows have progresses they have changed weight. Even the same size arrow within a brand changes depending on if it is one style or another. Part of that is the arrow manufacturers but also run into the case of everytime you go to the bow shop and needs arrows, they have changed what they carry. So you start out with 8.4 gpi arrows, but next time you need arrows they don't have those but they have 8.9 gpi, and then the next time you get 9.4, and then eventually end of with 10 gpi arrows, and what you don't realize is your FOC has went from 11 to about 8 or less, and may not be really noticeable, but throw a new faster bow into the mix, and now you can't stabilize your broadheads if you use fixed blades, and they push you into expandables which sometimes creates even more penetration issues. Like less than 3 inches of penetration from a rage hypodermic from a bow shooting 280 fps. Long story on that one, but involved a pro shop that help set up a bow that shots bullet holes through paper, but performed like crap.

[@roetru]

Love all the info Josh says on your channel keep it up and I still want a video on Josh's bow setup

[@ElkShape]

good idea!

[@AndyBalllz]

High foc goes all the way through the "target". Slow is okay if you know to aim a little low for the duck down before takeoff

[@michaelturner9450]

Fractions of a second difference on impact between a 500gr arrow and a 700gr at 60yrds. I'll stick with my heavy setup. Great informative vids though!

[@matthewkyle2534]

Lmao, 700 grains? Throw some vanes on a piece of rebar.

[@michaelturner9450]

@@matthewkyle2534 I'm at 620gr. Hunting midwest whitetail 30yrds max in hunting situations. My arrow will pass through no matter what it hits. Arrow trajectory and speed are not an issue for me. Making sure I get enough arrow in an animal to kill it is. Confidence in ones setup is a part of the mental game that is archery. ✌🏻

[@matthewkyle2534]

@@michaelturner9450 more power to you. An arrow like that has its advantages but it has serious downside. An arrow that heavy severely limits you. As long as you shoot short I suppose your fine.

[@erik1176]

"As long as you shoot short" 😂😂😂

[@michaelturner9450]

There are no SERIOUS downsides. Heavy arrows carry more speed down range, more ke,more momentum,and pin gaps are more equally spaced. Facts are facts. Speed setups are for targets. Anything under 550 is a gamble.

[@jeffpeterson3533]

Makes total sense! Great info for all skill levels! I would like to see a video on how to broadhead tune. It seems to be slightly more complicated to do it correctly. Basically, once we have achieved a good FOC how do we properly tune the broadhead? Thanks!

[@ElkShape]

yeah there is a lot of information there.. another whole video or two maybe.. 👊

[@TheSleepyHunter]

Really loving these detailed videos, please keep them coming!

[@ElkShape]

thank you 🙏

[@gaedesoutdooradventures3109]

I have 250 spine that are 28 inches long and they are 9.8 gpi and have a foc of 20% my arrows are 552 grains they fly 287 fps

[@taylorfranklin1114]

As someone with 31” draw length… it takes a lot of effort to get over 13% Foc

[@matthewkubik3874]

I've shot both ways and prefer the middle ground around 475 grains and 15 percent FOC as well. I've guided alot of hunts and the vast majority of bad shots was because they were trying to range moving animals all while trying to get a shot off and ended up getting yardage wrong. Super heavy arrows only compound those yardage mistakes!

[@jamesgray2435]

Have you guys done a video on right vs left helical fletching? And how to determine which is best for your bow. I’m shooting a vxr 28!

[@ElkShape]

Clock a bare shaft arrow 4-8 feet from target.. See which way it is rotating

[@tankmeister8131]

The thing you seem to forget the lighter arrow although traveling fast the noisier the bow and arrow in flight 90 % of deer drop a few inches with string jump.

[@andysmith8295]

great video- a lot of good info to take in. I think you should also mention something about some YT channels who are big archery/elk guys like yourself talking about heavier arrows and FOC. It seems several like yourself are shooting 80 lbs + and going for the longer shots(think Bowmar,lol). That is awesome you guys can do that but the majority of us dont or cant. Just as an example/ reference, in 2009 I shot a bull elk at 18 yds with my 2007 Hoyt Vulcan, 27" DL and 370 grain Slick Trick standard(bow chrono's at 272fps). The arrow passed thru both sides of the rib cages and went another 8-10 yds. I did have a FOB that popped off at impact. My point is that you dont have to have a 400+ grain arrow to kill an elk. Get in close and it doesnt matter as much. But playing with all these variables is what makes Archery so much fun! Keep up the great videos.

[@ElkShape]

Thanks Andy - FYI my bow is 75# this year :) and Bowmar shoots way further than I do on animals and that's his deal not mine. No disrespect to him either... I prefer to get as close as possible on all animals, hence I'm in love with bowhunting!

[@maxsanchez2339]

I understand what your saying about an animal stepping forward and having a slow arrow. Both sides of the spectrum are exaggerated some want extremely heavy arrows and some want the extremely fast arrows. A lot of guys wouldn’t shoot my setup because it’s “too slow” at 239 FPS my arrow gets 60 yards in 3/4 of a second a guy shooting 300 FPS only gets there in 1/2 a second only 1/4 of a second faster than mine. If the animal your shooting at moves enough in that time you probably shouldn’t be taking that shot.

[@anthony-ip2ox]

Your bow is probably more quiet and the animal my not move vs a fast bow that is loud.

[@johncox7563]

I have 16.6% foc with Easton axes 4mm long range 435 grains over all weight

[@monocogenit1]

great video and lots of info, but did I miss the reason/benefits of having a high FOC? kinda new to this.

[@darnellwatkins4031]

It’s the law of diminishing returns. Moderation is the key.

[@Son_of_Docent]

Use victory RIP XV or 3dhv. It is 7 gr/inch for 300 spine, no lighted nocks or bushing, regular nock 7 gr, use 3" feathers it is only 2 gr per fletch 18+% FOC easy for 28 inch arrow. You can check at gold tip foc calculator

[@ElkShape]

word up! what's your total arrow weight?

[@matthewarnold3196]

What is the estimated speed loss going from a 340 spine arrow to a 300 on a Mathews Vertix with a 60 lb. 30” draw?

[@zacharyfelkel7924]

My arrow weight I think is right around 530 grains and that’s with a 27” rip too elite and 245 grains up front that’s a black eagle focos system and 125 grain black hornet set razor. Glory nock in the rear with razor feathers 4 fletched and my bow is a Mathews triax 65 lbs and 29” draw. Arrows go about the same speed as my old bow with 400 grain arrows (using my eyes to judge that).

[@a.n.sethuraj9465]

Hi, I'm your new sub, I loveed the video so much. Thanks for bringing Josh Jones to the screen and clarifying the concept a lot deeper. And one small fan req give respect and take respect and he is really MeticulousFiercefulJoshJones (MFJJ) Hatsoff for your work @ElkShape! Bring more tech videos and latest Target equipments!

[@archerash6695]

X-impact, 100 grain broadhead, 100 Grain black eagle outsert. 27" arrow, with a wrap + 3 vanes. 434 grains = 17% f.oc

[@brianmckenzie2981]

What causes your arrow to spin right or left and how do you check that? Thanks and good luck bear hunting this spring.

[@ElkShape]

watch the arrow build video.. bareshaft shoot a target 6 feet away, mark the arrow with a sharpie

[@peterhansen4671]

Great info. If you're worried about too much weight in the back of your arrow than why are you using the heaviest vanes known to man? You could run 4 Tac vanes and still come in 8 grains lighter...

[@ElkShape]

I am not worried AND I really like AAE. I have heard great things about TAC as well. It's all preference and I generally go back to what has worked for me over the last 20 seasons all the while keep tinkering to find the Holy Grail. Thanks for watching Peter! -Dan

[@rippinlip23]

How do you find 15% foc of your arrow? How do you know when your at 15%

[@ElkShape]

there's a few online calculators that can help you out!

[@chasehirst8156]

What speed do we want to try to obtain with a high foc arrow. Shooting a goldtip kinetic kaos with 14% foc at 275 fps. Its sitting at 520 grains.

[@ElkShape]

that's a great question for the man, the myth, JJ - stay posted

[@ElkShape]

@Gabriel Acevedo I AGREE -Dan

[@daverushia6569]

275 fps with a 520 grn. arrow is SLAMMIN !!

[@seode7777]

wow must be shooting 90lbs

[@justindavis5730]

How are you measuring your foc ? Do you have a video on it ?

[@ElkShape]

There's a couple simple website calculators we've used. www.bowhunting.com/arrow-foc-calculator/

[@jacobcoons9712]

Damn Dan after reading some of these comments you’re a better man then me I would have blown up on people lol. 30+ elk should let people know that you know a little something about the subject. Keep the good videos coming crazy heavy high foc don’t mean crap if you can’t shoot your bow well.

[@mikeguy9668]

Yeah, but how far do his animals go? What happens when he hits heavy bone? Its true that you can kill anything with a field point if the shot is perfect, but that don't always happen. Its preparing for plan B is the reason for high foc and heavy arrows with a good cut on contact head. Ive killed way more animals than either one of these men and I can tell you for a fact what works best when shit don't go perfect. But maybe your a hooter shooter, I know damn well I'm not

[@islandpainter3964]

Its just opinion on both sides of the argument. Everything is a compromise. Being a fanboy of someone doesn't make them right. There are good arguments for either set up.

[@anthony-ip2ox]

Heavy foc helps you bow shoot well , makes it easier to tune.

[@LoveMountainAdventures]

Great Job fellas! It's funny how things eb-and-flow, I've been shooting 12-15% on my compound setups for 30 years and never have had tuning or penetration issues; unless I messed up! Also, did I hear Dan mention "clocking"? You may have explained this already and I'm thinking you are referring to bare-shaft rotation from relatively close distance but I'm hoping you would point to a video or share what you mean and how to do this? Thanks!

[@ElkShape]

That is what he's referring too - we touched on it briefly in our arrow build video.. Check that out

[@kennethhowell1467]

Read on Ashby's arrow penetrating factors.

[@LoveMountainAdventures]

@@kennethhowell1467 Thanks

[@Jericho_bella]

Easton axis 340 spine 125g arrow 29” draw am I better off going to a 100g or sticking with 125g

[@ElkShape]

that's a bit of a matter of opinion.. but if you're trying to achieve higher FOC either shortening your arrow, taking weight off the back end, or adding weight on the front will help you out.. but you have to make sure your spine is stiff enough to support your setup

[@paulshumate2904]

Wow, some Awesome info! Thanks for sharing such knowledge!

[@ElkShape]

of course! thanks for your support

[@outdoorlifewithdougb]

Awesome video! What about shortening your arrow and adding heavier outserts to achieve the 15%foc and same arrow length? Would that work? And how do I figure out my stiffer spine to do that?

[@ElkShape]

Any addition to weight up front is improving your FOC .. on the spine thing, would be best to defer that to an archery shop.. - TC

[@brettu45]

Is going to feathers a bad idea? I used to shoot really well back in the day with feathers and am considering order some for a few reasons, but one of the reasons is increased FOC.

[@ElkShape]

that's a good question for JJ

[@rodneystock8595]

What type of target/s is in the backdrop? Great topic and good information.

[@ElkShape]

Good question - give them a call at the shop spokane valley archery

[@christohercopley6601]

Glad you said that long draw lengths. I am at 15 percent but I have a 31 1/2 draw my arrows are 31 9/16 with 200 up front. 3 fletch I am shooting 254 257 FPS I would like to be at 280 and keep 15 percent you think it’s possible with 72 pound bow

[@christohercopley6601]

Black eagle spartan 200 spine with stainless steel insert and 200 grain iron will they fly awesome but was hoping to speed up. But I try 300 250 and 200 and 200 was the only one to paper tune correctly

[@vidoseaver]

So I've been in the arrow building / foc rabbit hole all year. I've read various things that say fixed blade broadheads are hard to tune over 280 fps. Is this true? Is there an arrow speed you target? If you could still shoot your desired speed and maintain a proper spine would you increase your foc? What's your opinion on feather fletching? I saw a feather "blazer" vane that weighed 1.2gs Can't that save you significant weight in the back of the arrow?

[@ElkShape]

less weight on the back of the arrow will improve your FOC... those are great questions - probably best deferred to your archery shop or Josh Jones

[@samuelhermon4040]

Can i get a estemet of what an arrow foc build will be before ordering the parts/ is there some mathe i can do?

[@full_metal2452]

16.07% F.O.C Total weight 461.6gn With Valkyrie 200gn Jagger broadhead and reign 350 arrow. Total oal of 28” exactly

[@terrycalvert7812]

I shoot Sirius Orion 250 spine 29 inch long that are 485 grain total and 17.8 % foc so it is possible if u shop around and plan the build long before you ever buy an arrow. No I shoot no wrap and vanes that only weigh 4.7 grain per fletch and no lighted nock but you can’t have it all and still have a sub 500 grain arrow with a close to 20% foc!!

[@progradepainting3755]

I don’t know, this is where I kind of agree with the heavier arrow guys. Getting that little bit of extra speed is not going to make you out speeds the deer or elks senses. They’re going to move regardless. But, you could most certainly get better penetration on that marginal shot of the animal moves with the heavier set up. The balanced set up comes more into play on the accuracy side of things when having to guess a distance more effectively in the heat of the moment when an elk walks out 9 yards from where you last ranged it. It really is situational dependent on what works better when.

[@jtag5432]

Still on the "short fast and stiff arrow" camp. 10% FOC at 312fps...KE at 80lbs.

[@Njjb122]

So if I used any of the foc calculators online I could build a ripxv or orion be at 380-400 grain with 18-19% foc 26ctc arrow 175 upfront

[@richarddean3154]

Thank you for the video. So, what is the proper trade off in terms of speed (so the animal doesn't move), weight (so penetration is optimized), and FOC (so the arrow flies at its best)?

[@theincredible9168]

The higher the FOC the more it penetrates and flies better.

[@daves6x6]

Wondering what he runs on the front for insert and Broadhead?

[@ElkShape]

We need to just do a JJ bow & arrow setup video

[@daves6x6]

I am curious as I am shooting the same arrow. Ive been testing the Valkyrie heads. They are testing and finding their set ups at 20% FOC is the best penetration and flight. I am trying their 150 short Blood Eagle on my Victory RIP TKO. It dives at 60. Good out to 50. I shoot a bowtech rated at 355 IBO. I also shoot the Spot Hogg Fast Eddie 3p slider. I like my pins at 20,40,60. Slider at 60. It is great. My prior set ups have always shot the 100gr TT Shuttle. Last year in AZ I had blades break on the elk I killed. Since Dan sold they aren’t the same.Made in China. Want a new Fixed 3 blade.

[@ElkShape]

Bull Mapping same here. Shot Trophy Taker Shuttle T’s until Dan sold, actually shot them prior to Dan buying them. Now I’m using Grim Reaper Micro Hades 3 blade. Made in ‘Merica!

[@daves6x6]

Those hades are sharp! They look good. I have checked them out. I like the idea of solid blades. Wondered about VPA and that annihilator as well. Just want something that really busts through stuff. The idea of turning a marginal shot into a deadly one is kind of what I think about.

[@TimConnor13]

Bull Mapping I run the VPA two blade in 150s ... they are solid! Not very sharp out of the package but solid & can sharpen up to as sharp as you want

[@jimmarkovitz2206]

My question is nock low tears with VXR. Underspined or something else? Love SVA videos on bow builds and how to’s. Appreciate the work!

[@johnaguzzi9826]

Had same problem. How did you fix it?

[@glyn903]

Try shooting a completely center balanced heavy, 250 spine arrow. You will rethink FOC. Shoots straight and high KE. FOC doesn't apply to compound like it does recurve.

[@darkeningone]

Is 17% foc good for a total weight of 480gn arrow

[@bradwilliams7706]

Would your arrow clock right if you served the string from top to bottom instead of bottom to top?

[@LoveMountainAdventures]

Dan, you probably have already answered this, but what length is your arrow and your bow poundage? Thanks and happy hunting!

[@ElkShape]

75 lbs 26.5" ish arrow - TC

[@LoveMountainAdventures]

@@ElkShape Thanks for your help! I'm close to your setup specs (27/72) and wonder if you think there are diminishing returns thinking an arrow can be too short for good flight as an elk hunter? I can reduce my length to 25" with weights varying from 430-467 and cannot afford to buy enough test arrows to really pick the absolute sweet spot for spine/weight/length/fletching out of my setup. Appreciate your help and enjoy your day!

[@garrettstraffon608]

I just made heavy axis arrow 75 grain outsert and they are horrible, I shoot the regular inserts that come with the arrow. I’m shooting shafts, idk my pattern is horrible. Ima cut them down a little bit like this guy said and try again. But yea you don’t need the weight. Speed gets it there before the meat moves lol

[@vincentdelbono5082]

Hi, I have been shooting FMJ 340 spine 11.3 gpi arrow total weight 530 gr and I get 10.5 foc also I noticed that after 30 yards a start to drop drastically, Now I am going to change to axis 340 9.5 gpi spine length of the arrows is 28.50” with 75 gr brass insert and 100 gr broadheads total arrow weight 490 gr and I would get 14% of foc. The same arrow with 50 gr brass insert total arrow weight 464 gr I would get 11.4 % of foc. What you suggest to go with? 75 gr brass insert 490 gr arrow with 14% of foc or with 50 gr brass insert and 464 gr arrow with 11.4 of foc? Please give me a suggestion. Thank you

[@aznkid248]

Is the FOC % for hunting, also the FOC % for target archery?

[@ElkShape]

Good question for Josh we were referring to hunting - TC

[@SkipsterDC925]

I have learned so much from your videos. Thank you so much for the great content and i can't wait till the next video.

[@ElkShape]

thanks for your support homie 🙏

[@dozierlester3971]

Thanks for the video, always informative and interesting. Do you have a favorite arrow or two, that's strong? (I don't shoot cinder blocks, but I do hit bricks and boards, and a metal door once ;-))

[@brucehillbillybarthalow3786]

I haven't noticed any accuracy issues using 4 in.wraps versus no wraps.I guess,I'll need more in depth exploration.

[@darrind8697]

Great vid . What insert or outsert does Josh run with his victory RIP TKO arrows ???? Or what would he recommend for that specific arrow ?? cheers

[@kevinberwanger1066]

im running ethics on my vap tkos

[@darrind8697]

I'm thinking of getting some RIP TKO's and trying to decide on Victory's outsert or go HIT with a collar . I saw that Josh is using RIP TKO's so thought I'd ask what he was running . thanks though , eithics look good too . cheers

[@hectortureymorales5623]

Hey guys, My arrows are victory vap tko elite 400 cut at 25 1/2 with an in and out insert with one inch in and one inch out of 90gn shooting a 125 gn broad head and 14 gn nock for a full of 452 gn total per arrow with 21% foc and my draw is 27 1/2 my triax is getting almost 280fps what y’all think?

[@perkinstodd6438]

How do you calculate foc with dual or triple spine arrows?

[@mikefinto4048]

20% foc, 560gr arrow!

[@colt3030]

What target blocks does he use that are shown in the back ground?

[@justinputra4623]

What about lighted nocks you still use them?

[@ElkShape]

both Dan and I do use lighted nocks in the states we legally can... the shot trail outweighs the loss of FOC for our purposes.. - TC

[@Stumphugger064]

I have a question. I’m building a new arrow for my wife and her new bow. She is shooting 50# DW at 26” DL Easton axis 400 spine. We have played around with arrow lengths starting at 27” and cut back to 26” then 25” & 24.5” doing a shot comparison. Using what I have on hand I threw 75gr steel 1/2 outs up front paired with a 125gr point. 3 fletch max hunters and east one x knock. Her foc came out to 19.98% and total arrow weight of 451 grains. Is this too heavy for a 50# bow? IMO not for deer but for elk it makes me wonder? Figured I’d ask. You guys use your own arrows for examples but shoot 70# DW so my question is what is an ideal total arrow weight for a 50#DW shooter with short DL? I’m going to continue to play around with these arrows until it’s right but I’ve never had an foc exceed 15% until now.

[@theprideofarkansas]

Question for ya. Im planning on buying the RIP TKOs for this season. I also plan on doing the 60 gr SS inserts. Whats your opinion on shortening my arrow length to make up for the length that the insert adds? Also, I know the correct spine is crucial, but im right on the boarder between a 300 and 350, what would be the better decision? (Info: VXR 31.5, 70lb mods, DL 27.5, arrows are normally cut 28 inches, peak wait showed 68-69 lbs, point weight 100 grains)

[@ElkShape]

Dude that is hard to say as an amateur archery person.. Do you have a good pro shop nearby to help? My understanding is when in doubt it's generally better to go for the heavier spine.. Either way you look to be in the ball park 🤘 - TC

[@Biglooch65]

Great informative video. It's difficult to get information for archers with short dl so I'm hoping I can get some additional insight. I shoot a 25in axis 340 that comes out to 408 grains at 274fps. This set up equates to 12% foc. I do also use a wrap and 4 fletch configuration. I believe I'm playing on a fine line of weight to speed so my question is; Independently, what weight minimum and speed minimum do you believe one must have for an ethical shot?

[@ElkShape]

I'm short DL as well - I generally have 280 fps setups give or take 5 fps... I have had my best luck with 450-500 grains total arrow weight historically speaking and I use the same arrow on elk, deer, antelope, bear, etc...

[@Biglooch65]

@@ElkShape Awesome, thank you! In your experience are arrow speeds of about 260-270fps just too slow?

[@jimr7154]

So,, currently running Easton Carbon injextion 400's cut to 26.5 coming off a TRIAX 60 lb limbs with 100 gr points blazer vanes and wrap. If this ok,, or could i go to lighter shaft to get more speed with my short draw length & 60 lb limbs. I'm looking for every FPS i can get, with out getting dangerous to the set up. any recommendations ?

[@ElkShape]

lighter arrows would help with more speed, taking the wrap off the back would help your FOC

[@jimr7154]

What would you suggest for arrow spine ?

[@ralphswartzentruber4474]

What inserts do y'all use,I want to try to obtain more foc.but don't want to(for example)put a 75 grain brass insert in and than have tuning issues and ruin my arrows to take it back out.Hope you get what I'm trying to say 🙂

[@bigpowerhouse11]

Started practicing and preping for cold weather hunts and ran into an inconsistent yet detrimental problem. The bow string glances off my winter jacket when shooting deflecting my shot. What top layers are capable of dealing with down to 10°F but aren't thick enough to get in the way of the bow string causing deflection?

[@Lucas-jy7cv]

Wool

[@colerichardson7435]

Im shooting 70 lbs with 28 inch arrows with 300 spin axis

[@twitch.merritt8483]

Appreciate the content, what would you say your base line speed would be? Or do you have a target weight and the end speed is what it is?

[@ElkShape]

285 fps is generally the sweet spot for us when it comes to our specific arrow and fixed broadhead! -DS

[@jousiammuntakanava]

I just built some 300 spine easton aftermaths with 20 grain insert and 200 grain point weight so that is 220 grains at front. My draw is 29" and i need the broadhead at the fron of the riser because i'm a pussy and i dont want to shoot my finger off😅 the biggest improvement i got was when i changed from rubber flechings to feathers. That alone cut my arrow weight from 551 grains to 539 grains, gave me better foc, they are more forgiving and dead quiet.

[@preyingmathis2517]

I'm running Black Eagle Carnivores 8.5GPI and I have a 480.9 grain arrow with 19.40% FOC 😱 how did I get that FOC being lighter than 600 grains lol I will tell you these things are meat missiles.

[@kodiakfisher]

As an elk hunter in the PNW I really gave this considerable thought. The PNW is full of heavy timber, tight windows and steep incline and decline. I have watched many elk hunting videos in the last 20 years and many misses are trajectory related. Meaning in the moment we get tunnel vision focusing on our window when the actual trajectory is going to be above our tunneled sight line. This leads to arrows getting deflected. Add in elevation up or down and trajectory increases due to shooting heavier arrows and I think I will take slightly flatter and faster. I have gone to Montec broadheads to the the angle of the blade maximizing my arrows ability to do work (penetration). Now out east hunting Rocky Mountain elk and more open country a strong case can be made for more FOC and heavier arrows due to more open country. Even when deer hunting from my tree stands a could see making a strong case for FOC and heavier arrows especially if it quiets my bow down.

[@andrewlowery939]

Im pulling 73lbs and the shortest I can cut my arrows is 26"-26.5" and I wanna run the 75gn brass inserts what spine would you recommend using with the axis

[@AustonAngler]

340

[@bajas1959]

So what arrow will you recommend for me . I have 26 draw lenght , and 66 pound draw weight .

[@ElkShape]

test a few!

[@lethalpodcast8004]

There were some good points in here - but there was also some less than ideally explained points or other blatantly incorrect information. Let us know if you want to talk about it. This kind of thing is our wheelhouse.

[@ElkShape]

publish your own videos, stop trolling ours..

[@lethalpodcast8004]

@@ElkShape trolling? Just trying to share factual information. Not sure if i've ever commented on any of your videos. Sorry if it came off in a manner anything other than being professional. I think you're in the business of being honest, and I was (still am) offering an olive branch to give you some more solid data to continue to build off of. We don't really do KZbin - video production is something I just don't have the time to master and i'm too much of a perfectionist to try and make video content right now. Like I said - let us know if you want to talk about it.

[@ElkShape]

@@lethalpodcast8004 Dan here - I've never heard of you guys but if you proclaim to be knowledgeable on this specific topic (perhaps more so than JJ who's been doing this archery game for 30+ years) then shoot me an email and we can get you on our podcast and learn more from you. Thank you.

[@islandpainter3964]

Would love to see this data!!.