Ep116: The Michelle Stone Story: Transcending Ecclesiastical Abuse

On this episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon sit down with Michelle Stone of "132 Problems" to learn more about her life and experiences within the LDS church.
Our viewers may be familiar with Michele from her interactions with Mormonism Lives' Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon. We were excited to give her an opportunity to tell us more about her story and we look forward to future scholarly interactions!
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[@rhyde0731]

Thank you for letting Michelle share her story. Her podcast has had a profoundly positive influence on my life. I greatly appreciate her insights. ❤

[@Notfromhere347]

You have been through so much. I’m so sorry. My heart goes out to you. In the midst of our trials we find out who really cares. It is almost too much to realize who doesn’t. I have a parallel story in Northern Utah, same year, when my 4 year old daughter was critically ill. Similar ward reactions, similar thoughts to yours. We should be friends. I’m so sorry for your losses, and so sorry you had to walk through that virtually alone.

[@psmith535]

Michelle has truly blessed my life

[@China-Clay]

Stake leaders, and their wives, have way too much power and control, and it’s no wonder that they made everyone always feel uneasy when they were “visiting” the ward, look how the wife took someone else’s calling and made it hers, and everyone in the stake followed blindly along, so gross! 🤮 yes Michelle, unbelievably condescending

[@Caveman57]

Women have always been given "second class citizen" status in the church. This doesn't make any sense. Just take a look at all they do on every level. And in hard times, women have always been the bedrock of faith. The first apostles didn't believe Christ had risen. It was Mary Madeline who saw Him and believed. Women need to be recognized and let out of that "second class citizen" box.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

So true but I think it was like when she said that God was telling her that there is a big problem. Not just in the church but in general. It is always about the man and I don't think that is quite how God wants it to be. I was talking to my husband after we listened to this podcast and we were talking about the fact that men wrote down what happened and all the events in the Book of Mormon and Bible so we never heard about the lives of the women and children for the most part. Men wrote about what they were interested in. I have always wondered what kind of food did the women prepare, where did people go to the bathroom and things like that. Women were kept ignorant and never taught to read and write so the woman problem is with the world in general not just the church. Look at how hard women and a few men have fought for women's rights, unfortunately it was taken to far but still understandable.

[@ShellyPurple47]

I was so thrilled to meet Michelle's mom! I loved her music! I think I loved the Brite tapes even more than my kids did! They were/are so positive! Sometimes I just go find them on youtube so get a happy feeling. I'm not surprised that Michelle turned out so great with a mom like her. Thanks for doing this interview with her! I was active in the church from 1976 to 2020. When the president got the jab I went inactive and started looking into things that my family had tried to get me to see for so many years. It has been great to see Michelle's videos because polygamy has really been a problem to me.

[@hlnbee]

Michelle, you are brilliant! ✨

[@boysrus61]

You can cut your poinsettias down to nubs and they will grow back as a green plant! I watched Michelle's podcast with her twin daughters. FANTASTIC. I do appreciate you having Michelle on. I don't think I align with a lot of her thoughts but listening to this today I do agree with a lot of what she said. I have always wondered why she stays in so I will stop asking myself that. "We are so busy serving the dead we don't have time for the living." Great quote.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thanks for your comment! And I totally agree! It was so interesting to get to know Michell better and she is a lovely person!

[@dorothymilne1258]

I’ve been out of the Mormon church for some years. I follow Michelle and I love her. These are important bridges being crossed. Thanks for bringing this to us. A granny from far away.

[@ksparks689]

Woah, you asked for help, Michelle, and they told you no??? That is appalling, even if later people did step in later and help. One thing I really hates about church was that so much money and energy was wasted on planning and decorating for silly parties, spinning wheels and filling time, but not service that truly made a difference in the lives of real people.

[@TS-iv9ml]

🎯

[@tylerboyce6502]

Michelle is great! I've been following her podcast for about a year.

[@ZakMakoff]

Michelle is a beautiful effervescent strong woman, very enlightening! The Church knows people are leaving in droves yet they nitpick and shame members into giving them more reasons to leave. Memo to Chuch Leaders...Back Off! Thanks R & L, Great Episode, please have Michelle back soon!

[@pollydunn3191]

The church attracts control freak personalities. I found every bishop I had saw things differently. One bishop that was VERY wealthy called me and my husband in to try to get us to pay our tithing that we could not afford to do at that time. He got pretty rude with us. Another bishop was not going to give us a temple recommend because we did not wear our garments to bed. 🤣 Every other bishop we had told said it was between us and gave us our recommend. I luckily had a good bishop when I was a young 19 year old and in a married student ward having guilt shoved down my throat by my visiting teachers for not starting a family and for taking the birth control pill. I went to my bishop because of ALL the guilt and he basically told me it was none of their business because most of them were on church welfare and it was smart to wait until my husband graduated then we could have as many kids as we wanted and this guy had 10 kids. 🤣 I also had a bishop when I was a teenager and felt guilty because me and my boyfriend were doing heaving petting so I asked to speak to him. When I told him he said it was pretty normal since I was a teenager but to be careful that I didn't get pregnant. I'm now 71 and I've had an Amazing life and have not missed the Mormon church at all. I left in my late 50s and fell in love with the real Jesus. ❤

[@samsmom400]

It's hard to believe that as a Mormon, you actually have to tell someone what you wore to bed. EWWWWwww. I'm glad you found the real Jesus, I did too.

[@user-sb6hk2bd3f]

I’ve been out of the church for about 5-6 years ) I have 2 kids still in the church we love and support one another . We are all on different paths in life . I think it’s important to love people of all faiths and no faiths . Great podcast 😊💛🌻

[@1972nlw]

Thank you for this beautiful podcast, I look forward to seeing more discussions with Michelle.

[@loveandacademics]

It's sad about the relief society deciding not to come clean your kitchen. I also think it's beautiful that the stake presidency came 3 weeks in a row and did it. Like you said, they preached a sermon by their service. I also loved the reminder about Jesus staying in His church but not giving in to them. I want to do just that. That's great! ❤😊

[@itsumademoheiwa]

This was great hearing Michelle's story except for one thing. I don't get how anyone who experienced that would still believe the LDS church has anything whatever to do with any God. It clearly is a hierarchical, patriarchal, man made mess.

[@randyjordan5521]

Michelle does that by compartmentalizing. For instance, she reconciles the church's history of polygamy by asserting that Brigham Young, rather than Joseph Smith, started it. By doing that, she can maintain her belief that Smith was led by God. She and her fellow travelers believe that Young brought in all of the negative misogynistic/patriarchal aspects. Of course, she's ridiculously wrong, but she is an example of what religious fanatics have to do in order to maintain their beliefs.

[@TS-iv9ml]

​@randyjordan5521 lol been there one has to beva cafeteria style mormon. That's a very broken shelf coming to pass. Did 60 yrs worth....still working thru all the traumas. Compartmentalizing is not healthy ultimately fracturing one's soul. Grateful to be healing now 💔❤️‍🩹💝

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

@@randyjordan5521 Michelle is not the only person who has dug in beyond church standard ideas and total antimormons and has found the truth. You have the right to look at the church and Joseph in any light that you wish. If you really want the truth then watch some of the other podcasts who have found truth. Rob Fotheringham actually worked for the church and found that Joseph was innocent of that crime. He took his information to one of the general authorities and was told that the church was aware of that. You may want to watch some of his videos. Hemlockknots is another group of people who have done a great deal of research. Brigham and his buddies spent a great deal of time rewriting church history after Joseph was murdered. They had to make it look like Joseph started it all to make themselves more credible. The information is there but you have to search hard for it.

[@mrs_elsewhere2111]

This was an outstanding podcast. I really appreciate Michelle’s willingness to share her story.

[@barryrichins]

Do you know, Michelle, that when you allow a lot of the negative in the church "roll of " your back and choose only to see the the good you make me think that the evil the church does can never compensate for "all" the good we say is so "important." Al Capone, who had soup kitchens for the citizens of Chicago who were penniles because of the Gread Depression, also murdered many people who were a threat to his organisation. Could that information be an analogy for the present Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. By the way, my bright friend, I do not believe any longer in god, nor do I believe things happen for a purpose; however, I do believe that we had better learn from the things that happen to us. Just commenting from the other side. Best of luck to thee and thine Michelle!!! I am only sharing an opinion that fits my present understanding. I have only a few things that I know, and one is other people, especially the members of my family are important to me, and some are objects of my love. However, I do hav many "present understanding" opinions. Maybe you and I are a bit alike. I just stand at the plate swinging, hoping I may get a hit once in awhile. Barry Richins, Holbrook, AZ--professor emeritus.

[@dorothymilne1258]

Michelle, you are such an interesting gem of a woman! I love your podcast. I am a foreign convert (resigned in 2015) and I find it hard to relate to real Mormon-born people, but I send my love and best wishes to you as you stay where you are most comfortable, and continue to engage with both the TBM’s and us outsiders. I’m still hoping you will attend the Gospel Topics Sunday school classes with RFM and Bill Reel. Happy journeying! ☮️💜

[@SheBecameVisible513]

Sadly when Michelle said, “this isnt what normally happens” shes wrong. This happens weekly and is ignored and brushed away. Much of her story is my story. Only my divinity told me to run!

[@amygreen758]

Amen!

[@loveandacademics]

agreed

[@harmagician1]

Look forward to seeing you all on Come Back Podcast.

[@sarahswanger979]

I freaking LOVE LOVE LOVE this interview!!!! I’m so beyond grateful for Michelle Stone and all she fights for. 🙌

[@swaneespeedramsey6080]

Absolutely fantastic episode. I want to hear more from MBS!

[@lilatueller]

Ignoring the negative in the church is NOT a good thing. Turning a blind eye to abuse in any system so that we may stay in our comfort zone is the worst kind of cowardice

[@barryrichins]

Nice comment, Lila! I hope to see you again in St George

[@SheBecameVisible513]

Perfectly said, complaining about abuse and dishonesty but supporting it with your time, talents, and funds is hypocritical

[@amygreen758]

Exactly. This was a disturbing interview.

[@barryrichins]

Thanks Rene"! I value your opinion. I'll see you in St George.@@SheBecameVisible513

[@patriciafinn5717]

Why do you suffer this michelle??you are too good for this religion ❤

[@randyjordan5521]

Poor Michelle's biggest proglem is that she still worships Joseph Smith.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Not worship but respects him and determined to teach others that the church has thrown him under the bus for Brigham and his filth. Have you never fought for an innocent person?@@randyjordan5521

[@SidJane10]

Love this interview!

[@sophronia5991]

I love Michelle!!! I appreciate her sharing her feelings and experiences. This was a marvelous episode ❤

[@harambeboy]

oh boy here we go

[@donnellallan]

I have been out of the church for over a decade and I am so glad that Mormonish has become part of the PostMo podcast soundscape. Your openness is refreshing. Please have Michelle on again! 💜

[@eugenieandrews8874]

The reason leaders act like they are Church Broke or have no balls to stand up for their own views and convictions is because The Church and its members act as though it is a cult. While there is good within The Church, mainly in community, no one escapes The Church without becoming broken in some way. I see it in myself, my family and everyone it touches. I enjoyed hearing your story and your thoughts Michelle.

[@timrathbone7093]

What an amazing journey Becca has been on wow. Thanks for this interview. Becca take care.

[@loveandacademics]

I am at 49:44 and my thoughts on this are: I sympathize with you. I have been through so much of the similar. I had to remember when I was in that situation, threatened with excommunication and/or loss of my temple recommend, that I am a Daughter of God, that what I was doing was standing with our country's founding parents, men and women who loved freedom more than the social acceptance, insomuch that they were called names, were treated very badly, many losing their income, their lives, or their children's lives, to stand for what was right. I had to think of Martin Luthor risking everything to stand up to his church because he knew what was right and true. I had to think of John Wycliffe who risked everything to make it so regular people who spoke English, could read the bible themselves and not have to have it told to them about their salvation possibilities and requirements, from a leader who would read it for them! I thought of Ghandi and what he did in India to stand up for truth. It was incredibly tough and still is today. It's heartwrenching. But what is right, is right, and we all must defend it! ❤😊

[@barryrichins]

Becca, the stake and ward leaders may be good people: however their church is capable of making good people do bad things. Please, my friend, stop being an apologist for bad action from supposedly good people. You are extremely intelligent and honest, so do you think that for those of us in your audience who know what injustice is you could stop apologizing for men or women whose actions have destroyed part of our emotional lives? I know the Church is at fault, but the evil it does is by henchmen and hench women who for some reason refuse to think for themselves and, sometimes, against their better judgment, hurt and, sometimes, destroy mentally, some times, innocent members.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thanks for your comment! My point of view is that members of the church are infected with a God virus. If you have ever read that book by Dr. Darrell Ray, you will understand what I mean. We’re actually doing an episode with him that will be coming out soon. Members of the church are not the ones that we are attacking or exposing. As Randy Bell said, there are three churches. The historical church, the corporate church, and the people of the church. I believe the people should be given the benefit of the doubt because they seriously are just infected by a god virus. And many of us were. I appreciate your comment and thanks for watching!

[@howieroarke]

You said this way better than I ever could. Good people simply do not cede their conscience and sense righteousness to an organization. Good men do not ask strangers young children behind closed doors if they touch themselves. They just don’t.

[@Autamnleaves65]

I'm late to this, but, it's so true. I've encountered abuse that has destroyed my faith in these leaders. When they say they are there to help. That's not true, they are there to hurt. Yes! The church has been in condemnation, for many reasons. I have no trust in them and most of this starts at the local level. Makes me think, would the 12 if they saw how these men treat their members if they would be astonished and heartbroken by their unrighteous dominion.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

This is so insightful. Michelle speaks of nothing but ❤❤❤❤. Thank you for sharing this interpretation.

[@emilysnow6757]

You are both (Rebecca and Landon) so kind and patient. Rebecca, you are so encouraging as you talk to Michelle about uncomfortable things.

[@erikaward5767]

I really felt this!!!!!

[@amazinmaven]

30:15 her interpretation of Lot's wife is unusual, but come on! We've all heard way weirder and way worse in Sacrament! Her take, while unusual, is completely harmless.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

That was exactly my thought! I have heard so many strange twistings of the scriptures, why take issue with this one which actually is a beautiful way to look at it and very comforting to those who might need it! Just crazy!

[@samsmom400]

I respectfully disagree. It's very harmful when one misinterprets the Bible. I'm posting a link so that Genesis 19 can be explained, I hope this helps. Best wishes to you. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHmzg6ePrrGortk Genesis 19 - 2009 - Skip Heitzig

[@katesomossy4157]

And even if from the stake president's or bishop's perspectives she isn't technically correct, there is wisdom, beauty and valuable principles conveyed in her interpretation. When so much inside The Church is stale and mind-numbingly bland and unoriginal, her take on the story of Lot's wife was creatively insightful and inspiring.

[@dorothymilne1258]

Try again to get Michelle on RFM and BR for some Sunday School talk! 💜

[@Cocoon68]

I love the stay in but don’t submit! I’m there at this moment! I’m fighting this battle of knowing that the church isn’t what it claims to be but my husband is still not there! It’s so so hard! Your story was so inspiring and so sad at the same time!!

[@China-Clay]

“They are good guys”, um not really, they are as submissive as they have to be to remain in power

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Yes, but on the other hand, how much did they grow from this experience and would they do it again. We are all here to learn and grow and hopefully we do.

[@sandee-zn9tq]

Nazi- like. No excuse!

[@Latter-dailyDigest]

Michelle is a dynamo!!😍😇🥰

[@tylerboyce6502]

36:11 I love that Michelle can laugh about this now.

[@tylerboyce6502]

43:45 😂

[@hlnbee]

I have LBGT grandkids and love them.❤

[@user-sj5ux7ut1j]

HELL YA Michelle…Good for you telling your story! We don’t need to have the same religious beliefs to see the good and Value someone can bring. YOU just brought good and Value though keeping it real 💯

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

I liked Michelle's version of the Lot's wife story much better. I do feel for her eleven children though, especially the LBTQ ones. I listened to several of her pod casts (too much Motivated Reasoning and relying on emotional reactions to determine truth going on there)

[@lilatueller]

I want to say that I appreciate the difficulty Michelle has experienced in Mormonism and I feel for her plight. However… I do not align with her beliefs that “God” told her to have another and another child when she was too old and had already struggled too much with pregnancies and babies dying. We attribute so much to “God” in Mormonism! When really it’s just us. We choose these things, against our better judgment because we’ve been conditioned to think God exacts sacrifice that must be painful in order to earn our place in his kingdom!! That is complete rubbish!! So unkind, so cruel! it proves to me that the Mormon God is not anything or anyone I want to emulate or worship. A “God” who allows innocents to suffer is not worthy of my love or emulation. Period.

[@randyjordan5521]

Dittos. What TBMs see as "God's will" is really just indoctrination/brainwashing. It's the emotional pressure to conform to one's upbringing and culture.

[@SheBecameVisible513]

As Christopher Hitchens says, giving two deities power over your own choices resolves your guilt but not consequences of your choices.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Then I guess you are saying that you don't believe in God in general. Is that what I am hearing you saying?

[@leslieboyce2455]

Michelle, it takes a lot to make me cry, but when you told about how your ward blew you off when you were at your lowest and then the stake presidency and homeschool friends helped you-well, I lost it. Thank you for your insights. 🙏🏼

[@Zeett09]

Did she say why she chose to home school?

[@Zeett09]

I like MichelIe’s compassion. I ask this a lot. Do you think God literally killed the innocent children as described in 3 Nephi 8-9 ? I’m always shocked how many religious people justify genocide by God (a loving Father?)

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Don't submit. Hmm. Has Michelle written a book? Ìf not please do. Blessings on your journey.🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@samsmom400]

In speaking to His disciples about a coming time of great destruction, Jesus mentioned what happened to Lot’s wife and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. “Remember Lot’s wife!” He said. “Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it” (Luke 17:32-33).

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

Thanks for that but please explain what it means to by trying to keep their life will lose it and those who love their life will preserve it. There is something to it but I don't get it. Thanks.

[@samsmom400]

@@icecreamladydriver1606 Lot's wife represents those who are attached to earthly things, those whose hearts are still in this world. Like Lots's wife, such people will perish. (GEN 19:26) She didn't believe God would destroy the city. To believe God is the important thing for us. Luke 17:33 is one of those great paradoxes of Scripure. In that day there will be a great scramble to save their lives, but it will be too late. They are to be willing to lose their lives and just turn them over to Jesus Christ. Any attempt to save life in that day will avail nothing. Anyone caring only for physical safety, but not caring for his soul, will lose it. On the other hand, anyone who loses his life during this period of tribulation because of faithfulness to the Lord will actually preserve it for all eternity. I hope this helps.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

@@samsmom400 This does help. Thanks. I have had this in the back of my mind and you have confirmed it so thanks. Kind of like during the great plandemic they tried to make it all about safety so it would seem like it was fine to take away our freedom. We can see how that all worked out. I can see though where Michelle might come up with her conclusion and it was interesting to hear another meaning because she likely did had kids and grand kids back there and that could have a real affect on a person. I did go and read those scriptures again because you forget. I can't say that I completely feel as Michelle does about it but I do see where Michelle is coming from as a mother and a grand mother. That would be tough but then to hear my husband offer up my two daughters to the sex crazed mob of sick and twisted men would be pretty tough too. Can you imagine such a thing.

[@user-jj1wz2lp2d]

Need to read the OT, her interpretation of Lots wife is silly

[@SheBecameVisible513]

I can attest to Landon’s statement that the stake presidents wife runs the show, unless she’s a martyr to a misogynistic jerk, carrying water for her power!

[@donahobbs1084]

This is ridiculous. What is your actual point. To be as arrogant as you are must be exhausting.

[@lynnjohns4650]

Love love love the Lots wife story. Epitomizes exactly what the $1 TRILLION Mormon cult of q15 conartists is!!

[@randyjordan5521]

Maybe it's a sign that Michelle is intellectually finding her way out of the church when she willingly appears on a program with known evil wicked apostates.

[@SheBecameVisible513]

Spoken by a true cult follower!

[@byonnoyb]

I do believe you missed the sarcasm...spoken like a???

[@randyjordan5521]

@@SheBecameVisible513 LOL. Not hardly. Google "Randy Jordan Mormon" to find out who I am.

[@leslieboyce2455]

@randyjordan5521 spoken like a truly Christlike person. 😒

[@randyjordan5521]

@@leslieboyce2455 I'm not a Christian.

[@samsmom400]

Lots' wife was turned into salt because she looked back, she was disobedient to God. As a result, she lost her life and her soul. It's just that simple. We don't know why she looked back, it doesn't matter, whatever her reason was, it destroyed her. There are two ways salt commonly features in the Old Testament. While it is not overly symbolic, the times where it does come up have to do with the end of life, or being cut off. Just like someone would salt a field in order to prevent bad things from growing, God metaphorically salted the earth of Sodom and Gomorrah, since it yielded only evil - or bad - fruit. Understanding what salt means at different points in the Bible can deepen the lessons that God is trying to impart, clarify various concepts, and ensure that a false teacher cannot twist its symbolism. This last point is key. Often, false teachers will take something that means one thing in one section of the Bible, but may mean something else somewhere else due to changes in time, culture, or the human author. They do this for their own selfish purposes, and not because it is God’s will or message. In life, salt can be flavor-enhancing or can make life-giving water undrinkable and toxic to the body. It can preserve, or it can render soil dead. Just as it has multiple purposes and uses in life, God uses it in multiple ways in His Word to communicate with humanity.

[@TS-iv9ml]

So how do u spiritually interpet Matt 5:13 also referring to the purity & necessity of salt and once it's lost. Spiritually salt has far more symbolism than most ppl give it missing the depths.

[@samsmom400]

MATT 5:13 Jesus likened His disciples to SALT, They were to the world what salt is in every day life: salt seasons food; it hinders the spread of corruption; it creates thirst; it brings out the flavor. So His followers add piquancy to human society, serve as a preservative, and make others long for the righteousness described in the receding verses. In the Old Testament (GEN 19:26) Salt is used to destroy evil. Water is the used symbolically the same way biblically. Water has the power to purify, to provide deliverance, and it can also destroy evil and enemies as in the stories of the Flood (Genesis 6:17) and the flight of Israel from Egypt (Exodus 14:1-15:21).

[@sandee-zn9tq]

Lost daughters in 2020 & 2021? Son’s Suicide attempt too?😢 Now on mission.😬😢