Ep120: Dr. John Lundwall Responds to LDS Apologists

In this episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon sit down with Dr. John Lundwall to review and respond to criticisms from LDS apologists regarding our 5 part series on Book of Mormon authenticity.
Our series with Dr. Lundwall showcases his ground breaking dissection and analysis of he Book of Mormon's authenticity from several different scholarly and scientific angles. Dr. Lundwall's episodes have the highest number of views on Mormonish Podcast because this information has not been explored to this level before.
We appreciate Dr. Lundwall sharing his expertise with us in this important series and we felt it was valuable to have him address the apologists who have discussed his work on other channels. We would love to see any apologists come on an episode of Mormonish to talk with Dr. Lundwall directly. It's an open invitation!
Smithsonian Letter:
www.mrm.org/smithsonian
Links to Dr. Lundwall's series:
Pt 1
• Ep57: Pt 1: New Ground...
Pt 2
• Ep61: Pt 2: More Groun...
Pt 3
• Ep65: Pt 3: Textual An...
Pt 4
• Ep73: Pt 4: Is Magic T...
Pt 5
• Ep108: Pt 5: Does the ...
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[@tquist61]

These episodes with Dr. Lundwall are among the best episodes among all the post-mormon podcasters. All are very enlightening and informative. Keep up the good work!

[@blckprsthd4791]

Delightedly looking forward to another episode with Dr. Lundwall.

[@_Truth-Seeker_]

The apologist responses are so incredibly helpful. Dr. Lundwall keeps the focus on the core issues and cuts through apologist's straw men.

[@Zeett09]

Thanks. Super interesting. I’m a never Mormon. I have to say about 45 years ago I was getting info on Mormonism (I was about 20) and I was told about these gold plates. I simply asked, so where are these plates? In some museum? When the response was Oh no an angel took them back to heaven, I knew right then the whole religion was nonsense. It’s really convenient that the plates were taken back to heaven so they aren’t available for any scientific scrutiny.

[@jamestrek2570]

It’s interesting hearing your story. As a born Mormon raised in believing in these stories it’s very eye opening hearing an outsiders view of what I was always told as a child. Makes me wonder if I came across mormonism as an adult would I have believed

[@Zeett09]

@@jamestrek2570 yeah it’s an interesting faith. I was traveling in England recently and happened into a small town restaurant wearing some Utah clothing. The older waiter, noticed my hat and asked with a grin, Hey did they ever find those gold plates? Then he winked. I just smiled back and said No not yet. Funny little exchange. I think the Book of Mormon musical nailed it - odd religion, crazy gold plate story, Jesus visited America, different culture… yet in the end they are just spreading their beliefs, nice people, great neighbors, wholesome lifestyle, etc.

[@claudetterush1086]

That phrase "took them back to heaven" always confused me. They never were in heaven. JS claimed to have had to dig them up.

[@Zeett09]

@@claudetterush1086 yeah I got the impression that the angel Moroni came down from heaven grabbed the plates then hustled back to heaven. It’s not that they originated in heaven. They didn’t just float to the celestial kingdom. They had to be taken there. Anyway, my memory is getting worse so I may have misremembered the exact nature of how the plates left this earth. I guess the point is there is no reason to search for them anywhere on earth.

[@claudetterush1086]

I think that is exactly the point!

[@toddgreener]

Dr Lundwall is my favorite guest you have on ^_^

[@ginafrancis4950]

Thank you for another wonderful episode with Dr Lundwall! Dr Lundwall Is an excellent teacher. I learned so much today. If anyone has Intellectual honesty, he does in spades! Not so much the Mormon apologist, simply because their livelihood is on the line. Intellectual honesty goes out the window when you have to keep the system you’re working for looking good and the higher ups happy.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

He is truly an honest intellectual. Thanks for the comment!

[@clcole5655]

I love John’s episode also!!!! These are eye opening!! I love information based episodes! Thank you for sharing your knowledge!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Glad you like them!

[@sallygreenfield6991]

I see Lundwall, I click. Boom.

[@RebeccaRaven]

I feel swoony....these episodes teach me so much.

[@Fatfinger4378]

What disproves the gold plates for me is the set of brass plates. Somehow in 600 BCE Laban had a brass bible, something that not only does not exist in archeology, but doesn't exist in history, specifically the history of that culture and region. How does Laban have something that had to be physically created/manufactured and written out (back to the codex issue) and there is absolutely no record or history of any such thing ever having existed? Even if such a thing were, for whatever reason, no longer made, there would at least be some kind of historical reference to it having once been in existence. But nothing. At least nothing but the desperate metal plate plausibility apologetics of the type that is discussed in this episode.

[@aaronjones4941]

Some time was spent in the discussion on who knew what language between the Nephites and Lamanites of the BOChurch of Jesus Christ of LDS(Trying to avoid using Mormon)-I find it interesting in said book, chapter 54, around B.C. 63, a Lamanite General, Ammoron, wrote an epistle to the well known Nephite General, Moroni, who was able to read it and respond. They corresponded back and forth a few times. So the language had been shared for over 500 years between the two nations! Wow! That’s a long time and indicates it most likely was not lost easily through the years. Love this discussion! ❤

[@MrHeybert]

I was thinking of this too. However Ammoron was a nephite. He was a traitor.

[@aaronjones4941]

@@MrHeybert after my post this occurred to me. As I thought about the wicked priests in the story and how they infiltrated the Lamanites leadership and so on, they never had trouble communicating. It seems difficult to separate all that communication from their writings. I assume,personally, from the way it’s written they shared oral and written language. It is interesting to think about…..the story.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

It always irritates me when apologists (in this case, Rappleye) grossly overstate the significance of some early critics having taken the position that it was unheard of for ancient people to write on metal plates. Obviously, this was not a position taken by biblically literate critics or thoughtful critics. The KJV Old Testament itself literally refers to writing on gold plates (and this in fact supports an argument that Joseph Smith could have gotten the notion of golden plates bearing an ancient record from the Bible). Exodus 28:36 -- "And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, Holiness to the Lord." When apologists pretend that it was a conventional and widely used argument of early critics to claim that it was preposterous to suppose that any ancient people would have engraved words on metallic plates...they're simply engaging in a sub-category of straw-man argumentation.

[@TheSandyStone]

Also note that this exact phrase, and its meaning, is taken seriously in every Masonic hall in that time and now. And that masonry also included writings of the Old Testament stories on a brass pillar. And that the same gold plate with gods name is buried under Solomon's temple that the priest visits once per year... They took the Old Testament seriously.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@TheSandyStone The main ingredients of Mormonism are around 40% Old Testament, about 40% Masonic (including Masonic takes on the Old Testament), about 15% miscellaneous odds and ends (including whatever Joseph Smith or subsequent "leaders" found expedient and convenient to introduce into the "religion" at various times)...and 5% New Testament (basically constituting the "sweet" looking icing and sprinkles that provide a cover (and concealment) for the actual substance of the weird cake that is Mormonism).

[@augusto83605]

The golden plates were a fabrication.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Yeah. The "gold plates" are simply a plot device for a fairy tale/angel tale concocted by Joseph Smith, first as the promotional origin story for the purpose of selling a book and, when the book didn't sell well, then for the purpose of selling Joseph Smith as a "prophet". In modern movie screenplay terms, it's a "MacGuffin" (like the Holy Grail or the Maltese Falcon or the microfilm that the spies are competing to get). One of the things about the "gold plates" that always bothered me, even just looking at them as a plot device, is that they indicate a weird and inexplicable disconnect regarding the scope of god's powers. If an angel can pop into this dimension and back out and can at the same time haul physical gold plates back and forth between dimensions, what was the point to all the nonsense about burying the plates for more than a thousand years, making an "ignorant' farm boy dig them up and then having them translated by way of God beaming English words into a rock that Joseph Smith previously used for treasure hunting scams? Why didn't an angel simply hop over from the other dimension into this one with an amazing book already written and bound, in perfect English? Since angels can hop back and forth, while handling and transporting physical objects inter-dimensionally, the pointlessly impractical hassles of Moroni burying...then Joseph Smith digging up, hiding and translating physical gold plates simply indicates that Joseph Smith was not very good at concocting internally consistent and coherent stories.

[@Jeanikins]

The important role of epistemology here is asking us to be involved in an ongoing examination of 'what I know', 'how I know it' and 'how it corresponds (or not) with the knowledge of others'. This last question is particularly important in integrated research, where different knowledge sets often exist. Wikipedia. Sometimes there are words that we mere mortals can easily be bamboozled by. Technology definitely is not the issue in determining whether the Book of Mormon is true.

[@garycobia3700]

Dr Lundwall is very interesting and so intelligent!

[@DeathValleyDazed]

The only thing thick about the golden plates is a Mo-pologist’s cerebral cortex 🧠

[@Jeanikins]

I love John's episodes, I have learned so much listening to him. Stuff you do not learn at church...

[@user-eu8nm2dc1y]

EXCELLENT. you guys are quickly becoming my favorites.

[@csrencz6942]

Absolutely love this guys approach.

[@barryrichins]

Landon, of the four of us, I would say you probably have the most analytical mind. I an a retired college professor and have spent a lot of time around academic intellectuals. You would have fit into my world just fine. You seem to be maga or suma cum laude caliber.

[@IvoneteMascara-nx6wz]

Absolutely amazing!!!!

[@ryanbb474]

Great episode!!!!! First time I’ve heard Dr. Lundwall and very impressed with this scholarship and his presentation style. Easy to follow and beautiful organization of thoughts.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

You need to go back and watch the first five episodes. You will be blown away!

[@a.rosec.9184]

amazing! the whole series has been so interesting & informative, I'm hoping for more with Dr. John.

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

Just an example: the indigenous peoples of North America had no concept for something as simple as property/land ownership (or surveys, deeds, titles, contracts). Those modern concepts can only come through the specialized vocabularies of a literate culture. And we know what happened when those indigenous cultures met a literate culture...that was a major misunderstanding of historic proportion ending in reservations. Love this perspective and convinced of the conclusion - if this literate society existed, we would see the remnants (or more probably, this culture would have survived and rivaled the cultures of Europe and Asia). That we don't find it means that it did not exist.

[@wernerclaassen4787]

Presuppositional Apologetics is what that first guy used and hell some really think it is so scientific, whilst it is nothing but blind faith wrapped in pseudo science.

[@lisalambert5493]

This was so very good. Thank you. I missed the earlier episodes with Dr Lundwall. I plan to listen to those. I work in higher ed and even there scholarship doesn’t sell!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Please do!

[@miriam-moore]

Love learning from you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@user-rt9th4lz7z]

Dr Lundwall's analysis is the single best critique of the BOM I've ever seen. After listening to the first episode with him, it became blatantly clear that the BOM is an artifact of its time and place -- nineteenth century North America. I hope Dr Lundwall expands this analysis into a book. I want a copy of my own!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We agree! He does an awesome job pointing out the fatal flaws of Mormon apologetics! Thanks for sharing!

[@sheliabryant3997]

1:22:-. Love Dr. Lundwall's AMAZING observation that, like "belief", Intelligence also is inherently - and necessarily - Altruistic. Because that, when considered, IS ITS OWN TRUTH. Fabulous (albeit exasperating) disputations. Fabulous. 🌈

[@MAJdrdtucker]

"Here we are, arguing over the absence of evidence." (1:29) Nailed it. It could have happened! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! smh

[@Costrada1]

This episode was so good …thank you guys🙏🏿

[@jerrygrover8992]

Correction, corn is actually mentioned in the BOM in Mosiah 9:9.

[@Jeanikins]

Because corn is mentioned in the Bible and Joseph copied much of his stuff from that source. The Biblical corn WAS wheat though. The word corn in British English denoted all cereal grains, including wheat, oats and barley. They were designed to keep corn prices high to favour domestic producers, and represented British mercantilism. The language we are all speaking and reading is English from England and it is their translation we are using. (copying in Joseph Smith's case)

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@JeanikinsWell the verse uses both the terms wheat and corn so the text indicates that corn was not wheat as indicated in the text of the Book of Mormon.

[@sheliabryant3997]

I lost it same time as Rebecca was having to strangle her laughter! THAT was SS Robin Williams. 💕💕💕😻😻 [Flatuhemla]

[@PrincessOPD_Utah]

Please HIT LIKE 👍

[@patriciafinn5717]

They have different theories on where it all took place..the latest is Ecuador...all vying for the right place...i am always sad that our 15 leaders stay quiet and watch the minions argue over this...its laughable how our prophets dont know..

[@robinnetto6794]

How do I find the show notes for your program?

[@helenvick522]

Thank you. Awesome.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

You're welcome!

[@TheSaintelias]

Gun powder was in China and in the americas (not the same time) so it must be true that the Hawaiian people had gun powder. Same bs logic.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

The reason why we can fit evidence under the paradigm that those scriptures are true, is because that is what the text claims for itself. So if a text has an issue, but the text itself claims that it’s true, you can fit evidence to support the text itself.

[@_Truth-Seeker_]

When will the smithsonian letter be added to the show notes?

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

www.mrm.org/smithsonian

[@scotttobler6815]

The b of m does not say they were a small group of people. Look at the number of people killed in the battles in the b of m. This was not a small group

[@thelastgoonie6555]

WELL DONE. Case closed. They're not going to do a follow up and address your argument. They'll just say it's "already been debunked" hahaha

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Agreed!

[@kentthalman4459]

In 2015 a new standard was imposed onto the apologists, one that we need to hold them to. In July of 2015, the Church took out the seer stone that JS had dug out of a well for a photo op. At that time, as well as the October Ensign of that year, the Church showed quotes of witnesses watching JS using this stone. From both these, as well as description of JS scrying during treasure digs, we know that getting BoM words was a claimed visual experience where words appeared on the stone. The words in the BoM are claimed to be directly from god, not JS's mind. Don't let Brant or other apologists like him forget that. When Brant says that words don't mean what they say, he is saying that god put the wrong words on the rock. Brant is banking on his audience believing that the BoM was a loose translation from his mind, not the words from the stone. We should always remind apologists of the standard that their arguments must be held up to.

[@brenthardaway3704]

I've enjoyed this series. But I did want to raise a minor objection. Certainly quite a few scholars of ancient Israel (many of them not apologists for anything) do believe that there was a reform of Josiah. This would have been around 620 BC, and that even then the OT texts didn't just pop out of nowhere at that point without precedent. Lundwall dates this type of writing to post-Exilic times, and even possibly to Hellenistic times if I'm hearing him correctly. This is still a hotly debated issue which is by no means settled. That doesn't effect the main argument, that we don't see this type in Mesoamerica.

[@timrathbone7093]

Should be fun

[@kentthalman4459]

I agree with Rebecca that this session was very interesting and entertaining.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

One of our all time favorite episodes!

[@jerrygrover8992]

Dr. Wade Miller, the paleontologist who discovered the horse bones obviously could not be interviewed as he died of cancer.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Sorry to hear that. We would love to have any paleontologist on who can corroborate the horse bones dating to the time of the Nephites.

[@jerrygrover8992]

Also, I don’t know if any of the other co-authors are LDS so they may know nothing about Mormonism

[@KSASTAMPS]

Good presentation. You alluded to this, but it would be good to state more clearly: when Muhlestein, Meldrum & May and other apologists begin within their predetermined conclusion that the LDS church is true, then they have, by definition, moved the argument from the realm of scholarship to that of faith. That by itself, would be OK if they were honest with others (and themselves) that this is what they are doing, but they are not. They gladly use the scholarship method when a fact seems to support their belief, but when it doesn't, or the arguments go strongly against them, they "move the goalposts" and they withdraw to a defensive "faith mode". You literally cannot win any discussion, because as Lundwall says here, because faith claims are "unfalsifiable." This problem is not unique with Mormonism, but persists in all religious faith communities such as young earth creationists, bible literalists and inerrancy believers, etc.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

So true and as Dr. Lundwall says “the problem with arguing from a lack of evidence is that there is always more lack of evidence to argue!”

[@charlespalmer9631]

Some assumptions can be made regarding the 24 Jaredite plates based on the description that 2/3rds of the gold plates were sealed, which the BOM text tells us contains the vision of the entire earth history plus the portion of the 24 plates that were abridged into the Book of Ether. Based on Dr. Lundwall's textual density analysis of the remaining 1/3 of the gold plates that were translated I would assume the 24 plates would need to be at least 4 times the size of the 6" x 9" description of the gold plates. This begs the question as to why Mormon would re-write the entire revelation of The Brother of Jared that was going to be sealed anyway onto smaller plates. Why not just bind the original plates with his unsealed abridgement? Seems like an unnecessary chore, or possibly the 24 plates were already conveniently the same size that Mormon was using for his abridgement, in which case it most likely couldn't contain the amount of writings it claims to contain.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great point! We love people who love to do the math!

[@scottandrews3510]

Would that Jaredite record be on a large stone (Omni 1:20), plates of ore (Mosiah 21:27) or gold plates (Mosiah 28:11)?

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Well just to start off, your logic and argument that there must needs be some form of plates in the Americas doesn’t even fall under what the BOM claims for itself. Where else besides these inspired groups do you hear of much information being written on plates? The BOM groups were small groups not the majority of population.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Only if you ignore the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon itself says they were the only people in the land and it was saved for them and describes the most advanced civilization in the Americas with hundreds of thousands of people. You don’t get to ignore the text when it is convenient for your argument.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Give me a citation, where in the BOM and from what group that claim is made? Hundreds of thousands… sounds like someone doesn’t know much about how numbers are used and described in the Hebrew Bible, and in Hebrew in general.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 still waiting for the citation. Thanks😄

[@sheliabryant3997]

CONVERGING PARALLELISMS: the Mother of All Bombs conflatulating with the Father of All Lies.

[@kelseyreynolds2261]

My husband is confident that there is DNA evidence among some small tribes in North America-he subscribes to the heartland model. Where can I find this Information? He uses that and the millions of mounds found in North America as strong evidence. He makes a lot of assumptions from this. What does Dr Lundwall say about this?

[@TheAmeled]

There is no DNA evidence. The recent claims by Meldrum and Heartlanders that there is Israelite DNA evidence in some NE tribes in North America has no scientific backing. There were tens of thousands of mounds in North America created over centuries and not one of them represents the kind of civilization required by the Book of Mormon. There is no writing systems, no agriculture until far after the BOM timeline, and no networked urbanization. The largest village sizes were in the hundreds, not the thousands, until centuries after the BOM timeline. In short, there is zero archeological, anthropological, linguistic, or DNA evidence for the BOM in North America, or in Central America, or in South America.

[@senorbb2150]

he looks like vincent price.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Scary isn’t it!

[@senorbb2150]

@@mormonishpodcast1036maybe but he definitely doesn't sound like vincent price

[@dannykay3598]

Cmon, terrible editing those first part - sounded like y’all were talking over yourselves and we missed info on such an important topic. Hopefully RFM has critiqued y’all by now. Be really great if y’all apologized to the speaker and to us, the dedicated followers who have raised your standing on KZbin.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

We don’t do any editing except for to add our logo at the very beginning and end. What editing are you referring to? I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy the episode. Dr. Lundwall always tells us to comment and have an open dialogue and discussion, he loves to present like that! Our five prior episodes with Dr. Lundwall are all done in this style. Please let us know what editing glitches you see so that we can figure out what’s going on. Again we did not edit one single thing in the video.

[@TheChenny73]

I’m not sure why you entertain the Apologists.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We’re podcaster our job is to entertain everyone and if the apologist find it entertaining all the better!

[@TheChenny73]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Agreed, thx for all the episodes

[@kp6553]

In this podcast, both the guest and the hosts repeatedly state that Gardner and Rappleye are asserting they have evidence that "proves" the Book of Mormon is historical and true. Gardner and Rappleye often explicitly state that that is not their argument. They are very clear that they do not have sufficient evidence to prove the historicity of the Book of Mormon beyond a reasonable doubt. Why can't you guys respond to their real arguments? Arguing against a strawman may succeed as a rhetorical strategy but it is irrelevant when it comes to determining truth. Your failure to respond to their arguments makes it seem like you don't have responses to them.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

I think we did respond to their arguments. Their arguments were that narrative historical writing on gold plates large enough to contain the Book of Mormon was technologically possible although there is zero evidence among any ancient civilizations that this occurred. Keep in mind that Rappeleye and Gardner were responding to John’s thesis and completely refused to address that the BOM contains a historical worldview and not an agricultural and cosmological world view that all known civilizations in the Americas contained! What arguments do you feel we’re not responded to?

[@franklinanderson9687]

If the apologists aren't putting up possible proofs, why are they even talking about it? Mormonish podcast addresses the fact that their evidence is not evidence and un-falsifiable. It amounts to wishfull thinking.

[@kp6553]

@franklinanderson9687 they are providing evidence, but their evidence falls short of "proof" by their own admission. Consequently, you haven't "debunked" them, or even addressed their arguments really, if your critiques all boil down to "they said this proves the Book of Mormon is true, but it doesn't actually do that." In law, for example, there are different quanta of proof for different settings. You have to meet your interlocutor at their level of evidentiary proof.

[@franklinanderson9687]

@@kp6553 The Apologists can qualify and declare whatever they want to cover their a$$. Evidence is, by common definition, proof of something being true. If they were not trying to prove the book of mormon true and historical, they would have no need to make their assertions of evidence. They wouldn't need to make the video. The attempt at "proof" is implicit.

[@kp6553]

@@franklinanderson9687 evidence that makes something more likely to be true than it otherwise would be is evidence, but it isn't proof. They provide the former.

[@Captainmoroni1]

New to the channel but absolutely love the content. LOVE JOHN!! Holy smokes!! Great series. I hope Mormon truth seekers stumble across this series early in their search. It’s simply undeniable!! 🙏🏻😮‍💨🔥🤌🏼💪🏼

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

John is incredible and tells it like it is! We will have more from Dr. John.