Ep65: Pt 3: Textual Analysis Dismantles Book of Mormon Authenticity w/ Dr. John Lundwall

In episode three of this series, Dr. John Knight Lundwall discusses his third thesis, “The text of the Book of Mormon cannot be derived from the description of the gold plates.” Dr. Lundwall re-examines the claim that an ancient, one-thousand-year history was written on a stack of gold plates in an unknown language by looking at the gold plates themselves (as described by witnesses and others). While other critical analysis has been done on this subject, Lundwall reviews the debate and adds some insights of his own.
Specifically, Dr. Lundwall reviews the most common artifacts used by apologists to show writing on metal plates in an ancient Near Eastern or American context, and then shows that every example they use are ritual texts belonging to a different thought-world that this series has highlighted. Instead of supporting the claims of the LDS Church, these examples continue to deconstruct the claims for historicity of the Book of Mormon text.
Finally, Dr. Lundwall discusses the physical properties and measurements of the plates and contrasts that with an analysis of textual density of both ancient examples and modern re-creations. He ends this analysis with a discussion of the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon text, which gives us a description of plates, content, and Joseph Smith’s assumptions about textual density using ancient languages.
Lundwall finishes this podcast with a discussion of several key assumptions Joseph Smith had when constructing the history and text of the Book of Mormon. These assumptions are embedded in the worldview of both the Book of Mormon and Mormonism, and are deeply problematic for claims to historicity and authenticity for the supposed sacred text.
Part 1
• Ep57: Pt 1: New Ground...
Part 2
• Ep61: Pt 2: More Groun...
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[@garycobia3700]

I would say the last three episodes have opened my eyes, it’s hard to hear but I’m seeing the BOM is just not historical!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

It is hard to hear that something you believed in and structured your life after and believed because the people who you put the most trust in the world to told you it was true. It is difficult to deal with, however, once you allow yourself to consider that it might not be what it claims, the facts quickly overwhelm you. Keep up the critical thinking..if the Book of Mormon is historical the evidence will support it, if it isn’t the evidence will damn it! Let the evidence be your guide!

[@dl1130]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Yes, yes and more yes's! Once you discover you have been deceived, the shelf breaks quickly. If the church was not restored by Christ then by whom? Who is the great deceiver who wants to "become like Christ"? Could you please do more podcasts on returning to the foundation of Christianity rather than becoming agnostic or atheist? What helped me was keeping faith in the Bible, Christ and His gospel (not the church). Going back to the basics. Get rid of the LDS King James Version and don't be afraid to use a version much more simpler to understand such as the ESV. God bless. Thank you for helping others.

[@TP-om8of]

So basically you just want to get drunk, right?

[@grayman7208]

don't fall for the b.s.

[@boysrus61]

Part 1 and Part 2 were excellent so, looking forward to this Part 3.

[@spenceredford4403]

Um, where is Part 4, 5, 6... and 99? I could listen to this quality of content for hours. Now this is the deep doctrine I neve got in Sunday School. Well done!

[@user-mn447]

👏👏👏

[@csrencz6942]

My training and career have been in linguistics, with certifications from both BYU and the US Army. This series has absolutely bowled me over.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Thank you for your service! Also an Army vet here. Thanks for watching and commenting! We have loved considering Dr. Lundwall’s information as well!

[@elsauceyelviento9162]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 In the book of mormon 2 Nephi 5 , " And I Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords" The question is. Has anyone found any of those ancient swords? Because their battles were fought with swords and scimitars and they exterminated several civilizations entirely exterminated. That's millions of swords...So, why when Columbus arrived in America, the natives did not have steel swords?

[@DancingQueenie]

@@elsauceyelviento9162 When we find the thousands of chariots, breastplates and helmets along with horse skeletons THEN the swords will show up. Just you wait.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@DancingQueenie LOL 😆

[@Tina06019]

@@DancingQueeniehahaha

[@bennyhinrichs]

Just wanted to point out that Janne Sjödahl was a man (it's a Swedish name). He learned English, Greek, Hebrew, German, Icelandic, and Arabic! Given his interest in languages, doesn't surprise me that he was the first one to try to run experiments about textual density of the gold plates.

[@TheAmeled]

Thanks for this correction . I read it as a woman's name but you are correct.

[@bennyhinrichs]

Yeah well I've met women in Scandinavia named Janne too haha, so it's understandable

[@antonolder5560]

Well, I think I'll have to concede - Dr John Lundwall's analysis on the manufacturing of the Gold Plates/Brass Plates - their size, thickness words/characters per inch etc say it all!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

I'm with ya!

[@howieroarke]

Even using the efficiency of Oliver Cowdery's sample translations where 2 "Reformed Egyptian" characters translated into 4 English words, assuming 6"x8" plates with zero margins, the 8,416 characters required per page for a 16 plate BOM are so small that even my laser printer could not reproduce Latin alphabet characters that size to any degree of legibility.

[@randyjordan5521]

You just lack faith! Don'tchya know that Joseph The Seer claimed that a single hieroglyphic character on his Egyptian papyrus translated into entire English paragraphs?

[@Tina06019]

Maybe you could read it if the Lord gave you a pair of those magic spectacles, “the interpreters.”

[@grayman7208]

don't fall for the b.s. over 15 people saw and handled the plates.

[@bsteiner4995]

🤯🤯🤯i have watched each episode so far and i feel like I'm at college again with this fantastic content!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

College with free tuition! Thanks for commenting!

[@danieljohncarey7917]

Thank you for having Dr. Lundwall back on your podcast. It is clear that the landscape of the pre-Columbian Americas, and the evidence of how the people lived lack even the most atrophied remnants of anything mentioned in the work of fiction that is The Book of Mormon. IF there were hundreds of thousands of people living in the pre-Columbian Americas the way The Book of Mormon describes, then evidence of how they lived and what they had made would be all over the place. There would also be at least thousands of their swords found. There would be massive evidence of their farming practices. There would be roads of where their horse-drawn chariots rolled. Instead, there is only evidence the people who lived here did NOT live how The Book of Mormon describes. The Book of Mormon mentions a slew of things that did not exist (elephants, swords, horses, cows, goats, pigs, silk, etc.), and were not done (even the way the pre-Columbian Americans communicated, and any practice relating to the belief in atonement) in the pre-Columbian Americas. The Book of Mormon is the best evidence we have that The Book of Mormon is pure fiction.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We’ll stated! Thanks for watching.

[@randyjordan5521]

"It is clear that the landscape of the pre-Columbian Americas, and the evidence of how the people lived lack even the most atrophied remnants of anything mentioned in the work of fiction that is The Book of Mormon." Dittos, and as I have noted many times, if the people described in the BOM really lived in Pre-Columbian America, their existence would have been a matter of established fact even before the BOM was published. The BOM states that the wicked Lamanites exterminated 230,000 Nephites circa 400 AD. In order to do that, the Lamanites would have had to be about as populous as the Nephites, and possess the same metal weaponry, horses, chariots, etc. That culture and technology wouldn't just disappear over the centuries. It should have still existed when the Spaniards arrived in the 1500s, and our history and archaeology textbooks and journals would be full of info about them. When the BOM was published, it should have corroborated and supported facts about ancient America that we had already learned from previous sources.

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

Also keep in mind that a fully modern, textual/abstract-thinking capable civilization would have wiped out oral-based societies in a generation (the experience of Western Europeans with Native Americans is a good example).

[@grayman7208]

spoken like a true ignoramus, the heartland is filled with evidence. today it is called the hopewell mound builders.

[@danieljohncarey7917]

@@grayman7208 Perhaps do some research relating to what is mentioned in the Book of Moron, and what has been found on the American continents. NOTHING supporting the claims in the Book of Mormon, or the people described in the Book of Moron. All for one reason: They never existed. And the Book of Mormon is 100% blatant fiction.

[@kenwick7921]

Dr. Lundwall is a wealth of information. I am currently researching the Book of Mormon plates. Here are some comments about this episode: 1. The plates being 1/8 inch thick (as well as 8 inches by 6 inches) is mentioned in three early accounts: (1) “Golden Bible,” Advertiser and Telegraph, 31 Aug 1829 [see EMD 2:221]; (2) “Golden Bible,” Rochester Gem, 5 Sep 1829 [see EMD 2:272]; and (3) C.C. Blatchley, “Caution Against the Golden Bible,” New-York Telescope, 20 Feb 1830. 2. A recent article on the BOM text fitting on the plates: Bruce Dale, "How Big a Book? Estimating the Total Surface Area of the Book of Mormon Plates," Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture, Vol. 25 (2017). 3. Jerry Grover also explores the thickness of the BOM plates in "Ziff, Magic Goggles, and Golden Plates: Etymology of Zyf and a Metallurgical Analysis of the Book of Mormon Plates," 2015. See pages 86 to 95.

[@TheAmeled]

Thanks for these sources. I've had a few people give me the 1/8 inch sources, but this is helpful. Thanks for listening and comments.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Well, clearly, the Nephite record keepers used laser engraving equipment (sold by Nephi & Sons as the "MicroLazer Engraver" (TM)) that inscribed text in a nearly microscopic font size. Peepstones not only served as interpreters, but also as magnifiers and MicroLazer text projectors. The plates did not have to be in sight because the authorized Peepstones were actually reading the emanations of residual photonic energy from the engravings and could do so with the plates under a cloth, or pooped on by a moth, in a house with a mouse or under a cat sitting on a hat, chewing on a rat and getting fat. In other words, the plates didn't even have to be in the same room. It's easy to figure out how it really happened when you just assume that it's all true. Everything else follows from that faithful assumption.

[@lrsvalentine]

Nope nope nope. I have it on good authority (burning in my bosom) that it was gold plate microfiche technology. The urim and thumim (breast plate with eye glasses) was the reader. Name of Jesus Christ Amen.

[@TheAmeled]

This made me laugh. Thanks for the comment.

[@imkindofabigdeal4308]

This is what objective criticism with no axe to grind looks like. If the LDS church wants to demand so much of its members, the leaders are obliged to bring receipts. And it just doesn't hold up on so so many levels. This whole series is wonderful. Thank you!

[@alanschannel1495]

Thank you! The 24 Plates of Ether was definitely the hallmark of this episode! Sanity restored!

[@TroyLeavitt]

Another brilliant and fascinating episode! Thank you for this!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@sheliabryant3997]

EXPLICATION is just splendid. 💞

[@barryrichins]

John, I am compelled to think about your work as the observer thought when he said, "Mad dogs and Englishmen...." Thanks, my friend for you effort and mad-dogish thought.

[@TheAmeled]

So, are you saying I'm crazy to walk in the midday sun?

[@barryrichins]

I suggest that you thinks what you wants, Juan. Hey, did you ever find time to watch my BoM post on the backyard professor? I know I was asking a lot, but I'd appreciate an expert opinion on my logic. Take care, my friend!@@TheAmeled

[@kentthalman4459]

What an amazing series. Quite impressed with this high quality content.

[@dougvincent9076]

We KNOW JS thought individual characters could mean whole sentences and paragraphs because we find him working that out in up to 5 ‘degrees’ in the Kirkland Egyptian papers

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Hey don’t give away too much! We are working on an episode on that for the Book of Abraham soon! Our listeners are always a step ahead of us. Thanks for listening!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Absolutely! Dan Vogel and I have talked about this as well

[@letahamilton]

Keep up the good work!

[@vocalysemusicworks]

The Book of Mormon was on a flash drive. 1inch x 1/4 inch x 1/8 inch. :)

[@natenelson9102]

Not to mention the 24 gold plates talked about in Mosiah about the Jaradites

[@user-mn447]

This is superb!! 👏👏👏

[@toducate]

These episodes are amazing! I can’t wait to listen to this one a second time. More please! :-)

[@stevemitchell8267]

How many Reformed Egyptian characters can you fit on the head of a pin? As many as the apologists need to make their arguments work.

[@Youth_Centered_Leadership]

If there is something I learned from the pandemic is that the "experts" have confirmation bais as well. They will see what they want to see no matter how intelligent they claim to be.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Of course everyone has a bias that is why you need to look at evidence from all sources and weigh that evidence. When I started finding problems with the church’s narrative I began reading books that had nothing to do with the churches claims. For instance I read Guns, Germs and Steel to learn what plants, animals, technologies etc were in the Americas pre-Columbus. This was an Anthropology book that has nothing to do with religion and therefore the author is simply reporting on the current anthropology from a consensus of scientists. When I started reading books from different sciences on the same subjects from authors with no skin in the fight it became evident that the science from multiple disciplines was all agreeing and was in fact contradicting everything in the Book of Mormon. In fact it became apparent that the church and their “scholars” were consistently moving the mark “tight” vs “loose” translation, primary ancestor to among the ancestors, etc that it became glaringly obvious where the evidence was forcing the church to change their narrative. Dr. Lundwall relied on the science from unbiased sources (from the discipline in which he is a professional) to make his analysis. You can claim he is bias which is fine but his evidence stands on its own and can be studied and evaluated by anyone who truly wants to search out the truth while pausing their own religious biases. If we are not willing to set aside our biases we cannot find truth.

[@bonmamartine5178]

That’s an incomplete comment. Would you care to show where Dr. Lundwall’ s bias is and where he misuses evidence to his advantage? Thanks.

[@Youth_Centered_Leadership]

@@bonmamartine5178 When I have time Ill go through his analysis and point some out. Im just pointing out the rule of thumb to not just believe someone because they have a PHD. That is the issue I found with mainstream media is they through credientials at you and expect the sheep to follow. No thank you.

[@Youth_Centered_Leadership]

I get what you are saying but thats not how humans work. Try telling the trans comunity that a woman is not a man. Or try telling a pro vax person that vaccines are bad. Or pro choice people that a unborn baby is a human. Humans pick their sides and it doesn't matter what evidence you throw at them. Humans choose their side emotionally or spiriutally then justify with logic after. Most secular thinkers that I come across believe they are above this truth which makes them the blindest of them all. Their egos are uncanny.

[@user-zh4nu1ok3m]

Oliver recalled there being 16 plates which is in line with the 3 mm thickness

[@wenasholeranch]

This is why Joseph needed spectacles to read the plates

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Again this is fascinating. I didn't realize Mormon claims had any authenticity to dismantle!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Agreed! Yet somehow there are hundreds of apologists and BYU academics who make good livings conducting pseudo-science to give hope to the masses! This pseudo-science must be revealed and exposed for what it is and cannot be allowed to spread unchallenged!! Thanks for commenting!

[@antonolder5560]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 so in effect Priestcraft?

[@tgrogan6049]

"Possible therefore probable" the battle hymn of the apologist!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

I’m going to write that one down!

[@elsauceyelviento9162]

In the book of mormon 2 Nephi 5 , " And I Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords" The question is. Has anyone found any of those ancient swords? Because their battles were fought with swords and scimitars and they exterminated several civilizations entirely exterminated. That's millions of swords...So, why when Columbus arrived in America, the natives did not have steel swords?

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great question. The pre-Columbia Americas still were using stone tools and weapons at the time of Columbus. Although they had metal it was not used in weaponry and therefore is anachronistic in the Book of Mormon.

[@truthseeker4286]

Excellent observation

[@benzun9600]

go research heartland america. the mounds and pyramids there

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

Simply playing devil's advocate, couldn't apologists say that this is the first example if people writing down their history and not in a sense of writing down prayers and spells

[@Loveisfor-ever]

Awesome

[@johnsmitty9295]

I think the reason we can't find any examples of other ancient books written on metal plates is because God took them all back to Heaven like he did the Golden Plates. It's just a miracle!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Ha! Just like he took back all the scrolls that make up the Bible!!!! Oh wait, he didn’t! Hmmmm??? Lol. Thanks for the comment!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Lol!!!!!!!

[@tgrogan6049]

1:23:41 For the believer the cosmic escape hatch is "God is all powerful and he/she/it can do anything". I am editing a book now about miracles recorded in the early history of the Christian Church and you would not believe the insane things bigshot "Church Fathers" peddled to the faithful. Very disturbing and depressing at the same time. This tendency to extreme human stupidity/gullibility is one of the surest pieces of evidence that we are evolved from apelike ancestors.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Sounds like a good book. I saw a cartoon yesterday that showed the number of miracles on a graph which then dropped to near zero when the camera was invented! Of course it then went back to its normal level once photoshop was invented! Lol. Thanks for the comment!

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

best line ever. "Bottom up Mormonism is full of goodness, top down its full of rot".

[@Fatfinger4378]

Agreed!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

That has to be made into a t-shirt!

[@TP-om8of]

Wow…you guys really do want to get rip-roaringly drunk, don’t you? All I can say is, “Wow…you guys really do want to get rip-roaringly drunk, don’t you?”

[@davidjanbaz7728]

U sound drunk!

[@TP-om8of]

@@davidjanbaz7728 How did you know?

[@moesyah]

an "expensive afterlife ritual"... sounds like the LDS second anointing

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

My thought too!

[@six1nyne]

"If the glove does not fit u must aquit." Joseph didnt even have a glove so show me one child. We all know his pull out game was strong Palmyra, harmony, Kirtland but damn did we all know it was that strong?! superman seer and revelator.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Sounds as if the gloves are off!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Those of us who study Joseph Smith’s polygamy and compare it to the number of children he had clearly know just how strong his pull out game must have been! Thanks for listening!

[@six1nyne]

​​​​​​ Idg it, the lord didnt make u mighty in speaking did he? u basically repeated what I said. Specially if the man was Dippin into young girls as yall claim the likelihood that he doesn't produce a child with any of them when he had 9 with emma is ridiculous. It's highly more likely that brigham and the boys offed the man because he wouldnt get down and dirty with them. Then set about to revise the history (which they admit to doing) Brigham had a revelation on plural marriage in England on his mish before joseph in brighams words "revealed it unto him" Home and his boys heber c and willaim clayton are seducing young converts spending all hours of the night with them and getting their feet washed by them with the chick's hair before going to bed. After they go to bed we don't know what happens because the entries are scratched out. Brigham hooked up with a chick in maine and when she left her man's and came to nauvoo a year later she buried a baby named Brigham. Yall got the wrong dude. They smoked Joseph and hyrum eho were both actively saying no to the "doctrine" Just cause I talk my way and don't talk like a morbot doesn't mean I'm not one and that I'm not studied btw. William law who accuses Joseph was a counterfieter Joseph took his press down because Joseph wanted to hurt him where it counts. Looking into all the bogus floating around nauvoo it became a criminal haven because Joseph put in place laws in thr charter which made it almost impossible to extradite. Joseph was a good man. He kept his freinds close and his enemies closer. He Gave people the benefit of the doubt and looked at the best in everyone. But he knew his ass was grass if he returned to nauvoo and he did. Each and everyone of you has had the confirmation of the Holy Ghost when reading from his book. Theor should be no question sorrounding the bom when you have the witness from God which witness is also confirmed through the Bible. What happened to yall man. Fuckin Jeremy runnels fr. Dude that guy is a tool I served with him. He didn't even want to be there. The history is messy when you tie Joseph in with what all the polygamist and cochranites say. You get rid of them and all yall got is Joseph the magician. Who by the way pulled a rabbit out of his hat. Which too this day ks as unexplainable as the day he emerged and beconed us all to come follow him to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. My heart breaks for all the treachery that is in all of yours. Brighamites 4 sure. Blood atonement in your hearts but your dealing with a name a fame that can't be slain. Emma stood by him hos brother took bullets with him and the rough stone continues to roll forth. In the end you have 4 witnesses 2 from God the book of mormon and the holy bible and 2 from a man who claimed to be one on earth Brigham young. Those two witness are John Taylor and Willard Richard's. God has left it for u to judge. By their fruits ye shall know them. On the right hand you have the book of mormon which has spanned the globe and joined he families of the earth. And on the other you have a forgery 132 by professional counterfieters and bogus makers. You have polygamy, black pristhood ban, blood atonement, Adam God, and mountain meadows. On the left hand is the man who walked to the valley and on the right hand the man who saw the valley and walked through the the shadow of death. Who's sealed his testament according to scripture with his own blood not that he may free himself from some debt or sin but that at the last day we could find ourselves free from it. Walk away go quietly but leave the unlearned man who was given a book who was dumb before his shearers alone. He felt that way his whole life he said he didn't expect anyone to believe him and didn't fault them if they didn't. Leave him alone in solitude with his God and the God you forsook. I don't really have any use for the church anymore in its current state. but I don't seek to destroy it after all I don't have the blood of Brigham running through my veins. If you were really mormonish you would let the rough stone run its course. Anyone else wanna tangle with the God of Isreal well slay the fatted calf and u can feast upon his words. They called him a fallen prophet his reply well that means I was a true one. I ask the saints how long shall we wander In the desert as strangers in sin? Love yall man be easy on the lad. All shall be revealed.

[@lukegraven7839]

I am also an honorably discharged US Army 11B (Kandahar 12-13) and Defence Language Institute graduate in Pashto and degrees in foreign languages (and MBA in Finance). I like listening to how made up the BofM is, especially the anarchisms such as steel swords. The BofM is like mentioning (many times) Abraham Lincoln had an Iphone. with the Book of Abraham and how JS "translated" that and then was found out to be a complete fraud- that is just too funny. This religion has really grown and it is amazing to watch even if you don't agree with everything. Keep up the amazing work- there's a lot of good to this religion and I'm not just picking on this religion- I like to discuss the made-up stuff to all religions.

[@Ziplock95]

there have been discoveries of damnscus-like steel found in the region of israel etc. dating back to the time of Lehi so nice try bud!

[@lukegraven7839]

@@Ziplock95 Israel ain’t meso america buddy. There has to be in situ evidence. Real historians and archaeologists don’t say well one part of the world has something so this part must have also.

[@Ziplock95]

@@lukegraven7839 you are missing the point, but oh well

[@lukegraven7839]

@@Ziplock95 Tell me if I’m wrong, I was under the impression we were discussing archaeological evidence, and I said you can’t use one object as proof positive/evidence that a culture across the world had the same thing.

[@Ziplock95]

@@lukegraven7839 according to wiki: 'Three instances of "steel" in the New World are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, one early amongst the Jaredites after their arrival around 2400 BC, one immediately after the Lehi party's arrival in the New World discussing Nephi's knowledge of steel at approximately 580 BC' and one other. When mentioned, it's precisely right after the groups had immigrated from their previous countries/arrived to the American continent, insinuating that they had taken these things with them (whether it be knowledge of smelting or physical steel tools etc) Also, we have VERY LITTLE research done on mesoamerica/native america compared to other regions of the world, especially the middle east/egyptian triangle.

[@trevanhatch8717]

You keep saying “strong arming” their argument. Don’t you mean “steel man” as opposed to “straw man”?

[@MichaelSmith-fq3pg]

31:00 - Ironically, we today are writing stories and fact filled information on metal. Computer data is stored in complex metallic compounds and structures. It's not an exact parallel but is as close as any civilization has gotten to using metal as a commodity information storage medium.

[@BrandonPugmire]

The Nephites are not creating their records after the Jaredites as a prototype because they don't discover them for approx. 375 years (probably even later) and after they left Jerusalem and after having been writing their own record for as long. You stated a number of incorrect assertions based on incorrect information but I don't blame you. We all tend to argue against that which we don't comprehend.

[@reddish22]

So since he got that minor detail wrong, how big were these 24 plates that contained the entire history of the Earth as described in Ether? If his assumption that they’re about the same size as the Nephite plates is incorrect, why would the plates use the same word to describe them or fail to mention the different dimensions? If you can’t answer those questions, then you’re not getting the point and failing to listen to what he says based on one tiny (and irrelevant) misstatement.

[@lrsvalentine]

Whatever Dude. The DNA, the anachronisms, the biology, the literate society argument, the ignorance of wooden barges traveling the Pacific with people and animals, the chariots, a God who curses people with black skin to make them unattractive to white people? Really? What are your assertions? The suspension of scientific laws? Give me a break!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Oh wonderful a critical thinker from the faithful side! Let’s think about what you just said. If the Nephites had no idea about the Jaradite plates until long after they were already writing on their own plates, what you are claiming, is that three different civilizations the Jaradite, who brought their plates from the tower of babel the Jews, who had the brass plates and the Nephites who have the gold plates. all came up with the writing system on metal plates bound as a book giving a narrative history at three different times spread across thousands of years by three different civilizations, two of which are in the old world that are well documented and yet as Dr. Lundwall pointed out not a single example from anywhere has ever been found of written a narrative on metal plates as described. The Book of Mormon narrative requires that writing on metal plates is a universal practice as it is seen in every culture across all different time periods, and yet not a single example. How is it that one man has every set of metal plates with with a written narrative on them all in one place? Your argument is that this plate writing idea sprang up independently in every Book of Mormon group but never occurred to anyone else in the world, even the cultures from which they brought the plates? That seems pretty convenient. Our claim isn’t that the Nephites use the Jaradite plates as a prototype our claim is that Joseph Smith made up all three sets of plates, and that he used his description of the gold plates as the prototype for all the other plates in the book, that is where the physical evidence all points. If you have evidence that points, to large gold plates anywhere in the world that are written on that are large enough that you could write the entire history of the world, please bring it to our attention so we can make a correction! Please apply the same level of logic to your argument for the plate as you have against it.

[@TheAmeled]

What Mormonish said...

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@reddish22 Where does it say that the 24 plates gave a history of the earth? Ether 1:2 just says there was some information from the days of Adam until the tower, indicating that the Jews had more of that information which is basically the first 11 chapters of Genesis. I'm guessing you have never read the Book of Ether, this is pretty much Book of Mormon 101 tbh. As far as the "hundredth part" that is just a literary term meaning there was a lot more and is used in exactly that fashion elsewhere by different writers in the BOM (WoM 1:5, Jacob 3:3, Hel 3:14, 3 Nephi 5:8, 26:6). It is also used in the KJV bible in that fashion (Ne 5:11).

[@TheOKkittyfarm]

The Hebrew scroll from the Jewish family burial chamber is a prayer. Lots of parents say this prayer to God for their children even today it’s basically a pray to God to have a good day not a woo-woo magical crystal ritual. The curse tablet that is about 400 years older from mt. Ebal Bronze Age I believe was on the mount of curse and WAS ritual. The Joseph Smith golden book defies understanding with running through the forest with a gold book alloy or solid is not physically possible for most human anyway.

[@DancingQueenie]

But but HOW could a poor farm boy write all that? How did Shakespeare do it? Dickens? Balzac? Dante? They did and did it SOO much better.

[@crisantocabrerajr.8540]

The Standard of Truth has been erected no unhallowed hand csn stop the work from progressing...

[@BrandonPugmire]

@kathynyny if you actually read and studied it you wouldn't arrive at the same conclusion.

[@DancingQueenie]

@@BrandonPugmire You make an assumption. There’s absolutely no comparison between what JS wrote and great writers - who didn’t copy page after page of the 1769 version of the King James Bible and weren’t fraudster treasure diggers. If you haven’t (I make no assumptions), try reading some Dostoyevsky or Tolstoy or George Eliot. Then get yourself some true scientific history of the pre-colonial Americas. You’ll see what I mean.

[@benzun9600]

I don't think those other writers did any better than Joseph Smith that is just opinion. Dickens took over 6 months to write the Tale of 2 cities and it is little shorter than the BOM. While it took Joseph 60 days to write over 540 pages. Shakespeare took over 3 years to write Romeo and Juliet. Dante's Divine comedy took some say 2-5+ years to compile and is a little longer than the BOM. Just on these alone Smith did SOO much better. Along with starting a new religion and writing hundreds of other theological and religious works creating a following of religious people that lasted a 150+ years. Yeah Smith did SO MUCH better. Literally no one else has done what Smith has done in history.

[@DancingQueenie]

@@benzun9600 It is a matter of opinion for sure. Time taken to produce is one measure you’re free to use as a basis for comparison. Another way to assess their success: Shakespeare never mentioned tomatoes, peppers or potatoes which were unknown in England in his time. In the BofM Joseph Smith mentioned horses, steel and chariots (a lot) which were not known any place in the Americas in pre-colonial times. I could go on. Edited for brevity.

[@danblackwelder5995]

Historical Blunder? Narrative of BoM. beginning in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah. Nebuchadnezzar placed 21 year old Zedekiah (tribute King) on throne in 597 BC. Previous, Nebuchadnezzar had taken all Jerusalem captive into Babylon (King and family, prophets except Jeremiah, priests and their records, merchants, craftsmen, etc.) the Temple was not destroyed but robbed of all its wealth as also the palace and city. Ezekiel was the prophet in Babylon. Eleven years later, 586 BC. Zedekiah rebelled and Nebuchadnezzar again attacked and destroyed the Temple and city again taking the remnant captive. Nephi claims he and father Lehi know Jerusalem well, yet the author of the BoM.seems to be ignorant of this devastating event during their life there. #BabyloniaCaptivityBeforeZedikiah.

[@tontoschwartz3666]

Interesting that the Book of Ether writes that the "Jews" have records of the creation of the world to the "great tower" so the author doesn't write of that. The term "Jews" was not used until around the third century BCE, several hundreds of years after the Book of Ether was supposedly written.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great point!! Boy you hardly have to even look for anachronisms in the Book of Mormon they show up everywhere!!!

[@michaelparks5669]

no one ...one one can explain why the Book of Mormon is clearer in Hebrew than in English. Why ? because it was originally in Hebrew.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

How do you know the Book of Mormon is clearer in Hebrew? There is NO Hebrew manuscript of the Book of Mormon or Reformed Egyptian manuscript (because there is no such thing) so how can you possibly make such a claim?

[@michaelparks5669]

@@mormonishpodcast1036#1 The Book of Mormon has been translated into Hebrew and those who read Hebrew will tell you the syntax is clearer in Hebrew than in English. . The Paleo Hebrew Canaanite Alphabet is "Reformed Egyptian" Best do some research.

[@dennisbowden3985]

Witnesses tell us the Plates were wrapped in cloth and placed on a table away from Joseph while he read from his stone. Even if the Church was true, I can't understand why anyone ever claimed he "translated". He would only have read the KJV English words the rock showed him.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Great point. Of course why would the rock bring up KJV words why not just provide a modern English translation that was correct and didn’t include old, English words that had translation errors? Thanks for listening?

[@dennisbowden3985]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 you're welcome! You guys are in my top podcasts!

[@benzun9600]

someone is deleting my comments on here cause I did not support the presentation opinions

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We never delete any comments, ever. We welcome all opinions and want to foster dialogue and discussion. As you can see, there are many points of view expressed in the comments. Many of them very opposed to the information we are putting out. We do not delete comments. Thanks for watching

[@ronaldarendas4587]

I have a testimony that the BofM is the Word of God and a second witness of Jesus Christ.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

You are not providing proof or evidence. You are stating opinion.

[@Fatfinger4378]

And many millions have testimonies that you're wrong.

[@ronaldarendas4587]

@Fatfinger4378 I sincerely doubt that. But what I believe doesn't require your approval. I don't know what millions you are referring to. What about the millions that do not accept Jesus Christ as the Savior. Does that affect your faith? If you are one of the millions that you say have a testimony that the BofM is false, I would have to say that I do not believe you. Since I am sure of what I have received of the Spirit of God, I know that you could not have received an opposite witness. It is more likely that you have hardened your heart against the BofM, and all these detractors shape your belief. Believe what you want, but do not claim you have received a witness from God when you have not.

[@Fatfinger4378]

@@ronaldarendas4587 The millions I am referring to are the hundreds of millions that have testimonies of religions that do not accept the BoM as scripture. Plus, many more that have studied/read/formerly believed in the BoM and also testify that it is not scripture. That was one of the hardest things about my mission in SoCal some years ago was the people that would testify to me that they KNEW that the BoM was NOT true. And in the meantime, how do you know your witness is true and contrary witnesses are false? Those with contrary witnesses would likely claim the opposite. They would and they do. Believe what you want (thanks for your approval, by the way), but do not claim to have received a witness from God when you have not.

[@ronaldarendas4587]

@@Fatfinger4378 All I can know is what I have received from God. I have had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ all my life and I have received a witness from Him through the Holy Ghost. Nothing you can say really matters.

[@Songsofourown23]

Martin must have held the plates with his "spiritual " hands not his literal ones.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Well, for anyone who believed in seeing things with "spiritual eyes", the mental process would have been the same. If you picture something in your mind (i.e. imagine it) according to cues and descriptions given to you by the person who wants you to "see" and "witness" and then count that as seeing and witnessing with "spiritual eyes"...there's no problem in repeating the process with regard to "hefting", holding and handling something. You just imagine yourself doing it, according to cues and descriptions given to you, then you're told that it was "real" in a spiritual sense and that spiritual things are "just as real" as physical things. And then you're all set to go around telling everyone about the wondrous things you've "seen", "witnessed" and "hefted". (But most of the time you leave out the part about how you first imagined it in your mind and then told yourself that what you imagined was spiritually real...because people usually aren't as impressed when you disclose things at that level of detail. It's just TMI.) Obviously, nobody is going to be allowed to cross-examine you on the fine details of the object that you "held" so you don't have to worry about your details not matching up with the details told by other "witnesses". The story of Martin Harris's episode as one of the "Three Witnesses" is quite revealing. Probably everyone would agree that nobody would be unable to see a real physical set of golden plates held by a real physically existing angel just because they didn't pray hard enough or have enough faith. After all, the whole point of them being a "witness" was to verify that the objects really existed...not to prove their "faith". In fact, in such a situation a skeptical witness is better than one who is determined to believe no matter what. As we all know, Martin couldn't see the angel and the plates when he was together with David and Oliver. Martin's slowness of intellect was causing problems. David and Ollie knew what they were supposed to pretend to see. Martin apparently thought he was really supposed to see it. So he went away some distance into the woods, apparently believing that his unworthiness or lack of faith was preventing everyone from being able to see the angel and the plates. After a long time of praying and being coached by Joseph Smith, he suddenly blurted out "'tis enough, 'tis enough, mine eyes have beheld, mine eyes have beheld"...probably when it dawned on him that when he pictured in his mind what Joseph Smith was telling him he was supposed to see, that counted as seeing it. Obviously none of this makes any sense in relation to solid physical objects. If someone has a real octopus in a glass jar and shows it to you, you see it. You don't need to pray and have faith. You could even not know what an octopus is. You're still going to see a slimy creature with tentacles in the jar. You're not going to not see it...not see it....not see it...pray to see it....pray to see it...and then suddenly see it.

[@Fatfinger4378]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N Very excellent points, thank you. Yes, when you are NOT a lazy learner and actually read and study what happened it becomes clear that Smith was using psychology, and possibly psychotics, to get the witnesses to "see" what they were supposed to see. And the church still does a lot of this. They use mental conditioning all the time, including encouraging people to lie to themselves and others in the process of getting people to "experience" what they want them to experience. But regarding the witnesses, I especially like the point about objectivity. Mark Twain quipped that he could not have been more convinced if the entire Witmer family had testified. Of course, in reference to the fact that of the eight witnesses, all except Martin Harris was a member of Joe's own family or the Witmer family. Not exactly objective, especially since Harris mortgaged his farm to finance the publishing of the BoM. Too bad God wasn't smart enough to tell Joe to go find himself some actually objective witnesses. Maybe some influential people in the area, like a newspaper publisher and a few known pillars of the community. Then not only would he have impartial witnesses, they would assuredly be new converts to boot!

[@FFM115]

However the Book was written, preserved or invented is not as important as the teachings and more importantly the prophecies. It prophesied that America is a promised land and that the Gentiles would become a mighty nation upon this land. This prophecy was not fulfilled in the days of Joseph Smith but much later. It prophesies that this land is going to be given to the remnant of Jacob, who according to the Book of Mormon would be the Natives from North, South and Central America and their descendants, that they would be brought here and that Gentiles would not have power to stop it, in the days of Joseph there was not issues with immigration and border control. It prophesied that these remnants would eventually be the agents of destruction of the Gentiles in case the Gentiles don’t repent and turn back to God, that hasn’t happened yet but if it does happen then it’s another prophecy that Joseph Smith would not know back in the 1800’s. The BOM includes Isaiah’s prophecies about the destruction of the Gentile Nations by a modern day king of Assyria, an alliance of powerful Tyrant nations that would rise up in power against the Gentile Nations and utterly destroy these nations making it possible for the remnants to gather in America, we don’t need to be a genius to know who are these nations today, that’s another prophecy that if it happens it’s not something that Joseph would be able to know on his own. Basically two pending prophecies that are supposed to happen that if it does happen in our time then there is something truthful about the Book Of Mormon, let’s wait and see if the remnants( Latinos) overrun the Gentiles and if the King of Assyria ( Russia/China) can in fact launch an attack and decimate the USA. If not then the Book is a fraud.

[@BrandonPugmire]

@FFM115 - where are you getting these "prophecies"? "Basically two pending prophecies that are supposed to happen that if it does happen in our time then there is something truthful about the Book Of Mormon, let’s wait and see if the remnants( Latinos) overrun the Gentiles and if the King of Assyria ( Russia/China) can in fact launch an attack and decimate the USA." I believe you misunderstand who the players are here. The "Remnant" are not the Latinos and the King of Assyria is neither Russia or China yet alone both... curious to where you're getting this? McConkie?

[@randyjordan5521]

People like you are why the term Totally Brainwashed Mormon was coined.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

They are not comparing apples to oranges, they are comparing the incorrect mileau of the BofM to reality. The Book of Mormon doesn't match, its an invented text

[@antonolder5560]

With regard to the found gold plates the Darius Etruscan etc -the argument by original early critics was that the ancients didn't write on any sort of metal plates whatsoever let alone gold - These 20th Century discoveries of gold plates - even with a minimal amount of writing on them - clearly shown that it was indeed something the ancients did. The claim that Joseph Smith made - that gold plates had writing on them is vindicated just by that alone! irrespective if it is a written ritual or not - it is written on a gold Plate. They did it! & those discovered gold plates are dated around 600-500 BCE Book of Mormon timeline then?

[@nathanbigler]

But there are no gold plates. Smith claimed there were, but they don't exist. All we have is his absurd Book of Mormon he dictated to his friends. That's why most people don't believe in it.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

antonolder: Can you really imagine poor old Moroni, or whoever spending hundreds of hours working away ENGRAVING all the pointlessly overlong sentences found in the BOM onto plates!? Engraving onto plates must be about ten times slower than actually writing things. Consider engraving this gem from 4 Nephi: 'And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away and the thirty and ninth and the forty and first and the forty and second, yea even until forty and nine year had passed away, and even the fifty and first, and the fifty and second, yea even until fifty and nine years had passed away.' He could have just written: ' 20 years passed away.' The rambling, repetitive style of the BOM simply would not be written on plates.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

I love how apologists dismiss claims so easily with absolutely no thought. Finding something made of gold in no way justifies Smiths claims. Smith was very specific that he had plates bound together in a book with an historical narrative covering 1000’s of years of history written in a language that never existed and you make the unbelievable leap that tiny plates with pictures and a few characters proves he was right? That’s like finding a wheel in Ancient Rome and saying that proves the Romans had automobiles.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

The notion that "no writing on any sort of metal plates" was a mainstay of early criticism against Joseph Smith's story is not true. It's basically a straw-man argument that apologists have built up in order to knock it down and imply that all criticisms are equally weak. My guess is that your belief that this was a criticism that "original early critics" heavily relied upon...was given to you by the LDS apologists themselves. A simple reading of KJV Bible Exodus 28:36 pretty much proves that no knowledgeable, biblically literate critic would have made that argument. Exodus 28:36 : "And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, Holiness To The Lord." In fact, it is more likely that early critics would have made the argument that the idea of golden plates with engravings on them came from the Smiths' family bible and not from a resurrected being/angel named Moroni.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

​@@TEAM__POSEID0NExcellent point!

[@stevemitchell8267]

You guys are being unfair to Mormon apologists. They are trying their best to defend the absurd lies and nonsense which are the Mormon truth claims. How do you expect the apologists to do this without spouting absurd lies and nonsense?

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Lol!!!

[@antonolder5560]

Metal Plates as Ritual Dr John Lundwall says binding heaven & earth - isn't that what the Book of Mormon also claims to do? the Prophet Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." - isn't that then forming a binding between heaven & earth? - it looks to me that the gold plates of JS fulfil this binding that Dr John talks of? In fact, The Book of Mormon is full of Binding Ritual! The Brother of Jared story is a ritual & a ritual that we participate in in the Temple do we not? therefore the BoM is a book of Ritual.

[@six1nyne]

These dudes could not write this book much less dictate it. Produce 3 witnesses who later break rank but never refute their testimony. Tbe book of mormon is not a Mcguffon you buffoon it is an anomaly. It's chloroform in print and the book as become to u as a nightvision. Isiah 56 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. 10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

This is the typical apologetics that has absolutely no basis in fact and tries to change an argument into something it isn’t. In Part 1 of the series Dr. Lundwall pointed out that secondary oral societies writing systems do not write narratives but rather write in ritual. A ritual is a song, psalm, chant, spell, etc that oral societies use to bind the heaven and earth. The Book of Mormon is a narrative not a ritual and as Dr. Lundwall pointed out not one plate ever found contains a narrative account in the form of a book as the Book of Mormon claims to be anywhere in the world! There are many books from many religions that are inspirational and tie humans to the divine but none of them were written on metal plates! The Book of Mormon is not ritual and the Brother of Jared is not ritual nor is it anywhere in the temple ceremony so we have no idea what you are talking about. Also using quotes from the author of the book claiming it is true is no more credible than a salesman trying to sell you a car who claims it is the best car on the market. You have completely misrepresented what was discussed on the program. We welcome any evidence to contradict Dr. Lundwall’s comments so if you would like to claim that the Book of Mormon is ritual then please provide a physical example of a 500+ page narrative written on metal plates in the ancient Americas…or anywhere in the ancient world. Dr. Lundwall showed us the best examples the church could list and none of these came anywhere close to that standard, in fact, they confirmed what Dr. Lundwall said these cultures would produce, ritual prayers, songs, chant, spells, etc. Dr. Lundwall’s theory predicts what we SHOULD and DO see in the archeological record…the church’s claims predict that we should find whole narratives inscribed on metal plates and we don’t find any example of that anywhere in the world.

[@antonolder5560]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Yes I understand what you are saying - however it's quite difficult - when you believe something for 40 years and then have it all crumble - Yes I'm scratching around now - I have watched all 3 presentations. Though I would argue - that the book of Mormon does contain language & imagery that is cosmological & "Comparable to the Bible" - for example Lehi's seeing a Pillar of fire . Nephi taken up into an exceedingly High Mountain - The Brother of Jared seeing the Lord - a type Moses experience. The Sign that Samuel the Lamanite gave The destruction recored in 3 Nephi 8 - all these are cosmic'/cosmological imagery -there are recorded events of the configuration of planets - Venus being the predominant harbinger of destruction in the America's - recorded by the Inca' Mayans & Aztecs - in north America you have the Hopi and others The Sioux sun dance where they raise up a brave on a pole - Christ being raised up on a pole is also comic imagery see Anthony E. Larson The Ancient Skies & The Restored Gospel the fact that this language & imagery is in The Book of Mormon attests of it cosmological aspects. www.youtube.com/@toeknee1943 The Ritual of the Brother of Jared is done in the Temple it is an endowment ritual the Hand of god comes through the vail what does Mahonri Moriancumer see? he sees the hand of the Lord or rather the finger of Jesus Christ on his hand come through the Vail.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@antonolder5560 The Mormon temples have false rituals that aren't based on Jewish temple rituals but Masonic temple rituals that R not even Christian but R of counterfeit religious practices based on Satan's deception in pagan rituals that combine all religions into One system of the Masons. Mormons do get false Spiritual experiences from these familiar spirits of the Masonic rituals and this is why many R Spirituality blind to the TRUE Gospel of Jesus Christ in Authentic Christianity. Your temples have the Goat symbols of Satan who Jesus said would go to eternal punishment in Matthew 25:31-46 . But Jesus death and Atonement on the Cross is denied and Mormons refuse to wear the Cross because it would block the familiar spirit protection of the Mormon temples through your magic underwear

[@randyjordan5521]

" In fact, The Book of Mormon is full of Binding Ritual! The Brother of Jared story is a ritual & a ritual that we participate in in the Temple do we not? therefore the BoM is a book of Ritual." Dude, get a grip! There were no "Jaredites." The BOM is a fiction that Joseph Smith wrote to make money and to establish his reputation as a "seer". He came up with the Golden Bible hoax after he was convicted of fraud re: his occult folk-magic practices on March 20, 1826. His evolution from being an occult folk-magician into a Biblical-style "prophet" was detailed in a newspaper just 16 months after he founded his church: "It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of the [their] associates and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith -- that a set of golden plates on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth. They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the bible, to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. Hints were given out that young Joe Smith was the chosen one of God to reveal this new mystery to the world; and Joe from being an idle young fellow, lounging about the villages, jumped up into a very grave parsonlike man, who felt he had on his shoulders the salvation of the world, besides a respectable looking sort of a blackcoat. Old Joe, the ex-preacher, and several others, were the believers of the new faith, which they admitted was an improvement in christianity, foretold word for word in the bible. They treated their own invention with the utmost religious respect. By the special interposition of God, the golden plates, on which was engraved the Book of Mormon, and other works, had been buried for ages in the hill by a wandering tribe of the children of Israel, who had found their way to western New York, before the birth of christianity itself. Joe Smith is discovered to be the second Messiah who was to reveal this word to the world and to reform it anew." ---New York Inquirer, August 31, 1831.

[@hrv4908]

Amazing the effort nonbelievers put into trying to destroy the truth. If the Church wasn't legit, the devil and his followers wouldn't be fighting a battle they can't win. Good will prevail.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Unfortunately the devil is another anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Jews in 600 BC did not believe in Satan that would be an unknown idea to people leaving Jerusalem in 600 BC. Thanks for bringing that up!

[@hrv4908]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 Plenty of people haven't believed in God, from the beginning either. Nice try though.

[@jordan-xe2yb]

You’re sick?

[@LARdTLARdT]

But that is because you don’t know how to read Reformed Egyptian.

[@tluton64]

This dude is like your drunk uncle at a family reunion. What a mess of a discussion!!!!

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Haha! Sometimes we do an episode where we just chat as friends informally. Even informally, Dr. John is one of the most brilliant people I know! His Bigfoot analysis was fabulous!

[@tgrogan6049]

Iran to Mesoamerica 9000 miles Italy to Mesoamerica 8000 miles Definitely proves the BOM!

[@jasondixon2181]

How?

[@tgrogan6049]

@@jasondixon2181 Being facetious.

[@ronaldarendas4587]

By the way, you are not providing proof or evidence. You are stating opinion. The fact that there are plates of metal strengthen my belief that the BofM is real.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

We just did an episode on logic last night with Kolby Reddish in which we discuss logic and epistemology. This is a classic example of a paradox where your conclusion is the complete opposite of what would be reasonably assumed. Keep an eye out for this episode I think you will enjoy it.

[@ronaldarendas4587]

@mormonishpodcast1036 Let's agree to disagree. My belief in the BofM is based on the Spirit of God, not physical evidence. However, I am happy to know that records were kept on plates--whether narrative or rotualistic.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

I don't think you know how the spirit works.

[@Tina06019]

Doesn’t the Book of Ether put people to sleep? Ba-dum-dum.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Humor is always appreciated! Lol

[@joycegrover1146]

Christ needs Science?

[@bonmamartine5178]

Actually the church teaches that God must work with natural laws. So, yes, God needs science. God is not a magician who makes thin plates that can be written on appear out of nowhere.

[@joycegrover1146]

@@bonmamartine5178 confused in your reply! God uses science but science is not something he didn’t bring about! He is in essence (the founder of all things including the science he may operate thru! No God no science! But your saying God had nothing to do with thin plates and where written on and appeared out of nowhere! You truly believe the whole bk of thin plates written on is simply modern man made or never existed?…. Might have it wrong what your trying to say? Sorry if so

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Christ needs no apologists either... think about it.

[@jerrygrover8992]

The academic level of research here with regards to the metallurgy is pretty poor. Tin plates in that era were as thin as tin plate was produced in variable thicknesses in the nineteenth century, some as thin as .001667 inches (.0432 mm)(Encyclopedia Britannica 1797, 12:118). Pretty simple source to find. Copper plates .007-.01 inches thick can be engraved on both sides. That is .254 mm thick 10 times thinner than what this guy has come up with.

[@reddish22]

For engraving purposes? That makes absolutely no sense. No inscription could take place on material that thin. Especially on both sides. That’s also just taking them at their word-do we have any evidence that the metallurgy allowed the Book of Mormon to exist under those conditions? If you can show that, I’d love the sources because it would be compelling evidence indeed.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

​@@reddish22And was the Lehi family a metallurgist family? If you asked me to produce these materials from ore (without checking the internet or a library) I would have no idea how to do it.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

Jerry thank you for the comment. Do you have any examples of plates with narrative writing or writing on them the thickness you reference from 400 AD or earlier so Dr. Lundwall can evaluate the density of this writing system and make adjustments to his calculations?

[@jerrygrover8992]

@@mormonishpodcast1036 The hardness and modulus of elasticity of ancient metalwork has been measured and is well known so recreating engraving as was done anciently is easily recreated and has been duplicated many times. The depth of engraving is dependent on the hardness and temper of the metal which depends on the alloy used, so knowing the thickness of an ancient brass plate for example serves little purpose in determining the required thickness of a tumbaga plate for example. The key scientific parameter to determine the thickness of the JS plates is the rustling sound, which under testing indicates a thickness of .007 - .10 in thick. Thinner than .005 and attempts to engrave can extend to the other side of the plate. That has been tested using tools available to the ancients. Void space ranges can also be calculated using deflection measurements that have been done on ancient polished tumbaga plates found in South America. There are ranges, but 50 percent is a reasonable range based on that data. Using the 50 percent sealed portion number for the dimension of the plates, and using the known weight range one arrives at 300-600 plates in the plate stack, which will more than accommodate the Book of Mormon with any of the character densities he is using. We don’t have Egyptian or comparable hieroglyphic language on engraved plates but one of the three languages on the Darius plates has logographic elements while still a syllabic language so reasonable extrapolations can be made from that. Most of this is available in the book Ziff, Magic Goggles, and Golden Plates available in universities and free online at www.bmslr.org. Honestly, no offense, but his research is so poor here, missing sources that pop up on any Google Search I doubt I would take seriously anything he came up with in this area. He is definitely outside his element. As far as character density of the reformed Egyptian that is easily calculated based on the Caractors Document and its translation, which is also available in university libraries and also free to download on line. This renders 8.54 characters per square inch, with 2.1 words per character, rendering 17.9 words per square inch. This calculation is found in The Swords of Shule book published in 2018, page 294 and is also found in university libraries and is free to download online.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

In the past, I would often wrap up potatoes in very thin aluminum sheets (we called "foil") and throw them in a fire. It never occurred to me to write my family's history on those aluminum sheets, or "plates" if you will, and bury that history in a drumlin. I'm kicking myself now for not doing that.

[@grayman7208]

LOL fake news.

[@kentthalman4459]

What didn't you agree with?

[@grayman7208]

@@kentthalman4459 what didn't i agree with ? "Textual Analysis Dismantles Book of Mormon Authenticity" it's a bullshit lie. the actual textual analysis shows different authors in different time frames. and has been validated by non-mormon sources.

[@kentthalman4459]

@@grayman7208 Deutero-Isaiah is widely accepted by scholars, yet found throughout the BoM. Long Mark is almost universally agreed upon, yet found in the BoM. Sermon on the Mount, complete with Jerusalem specific culture references contemporary to the NT, and thus anachronistic in America, is found in the BoM. Worse, in 2015 the Church admitted that the BoM translation was a visual experience with words appearing on a rock, making it impossible to explain why 15%+ of the BoM text is made up of 1769s specific KJV text. Textual analysis will set you free.

[@grayman7208]

@@kentthalman4459 bullshit on both your first two comments. he never used a rock. and even a moron should understand that when you translate something you use the common language for the culture you are in. and that was king james english.

[@kentthalman4459]

Every time someone does a word print analysis of the BoM, whether inside or outside the Church, they are immediately dismissing the dozens of Loose Translation Theory papers written by apologists to explain the many dozens, if not hundreds, of anachronisms. Every time someone publishes results of a word print analysis that convincingly demonstrate multiple authors, they are disproving the Loose Translation Theory. Think long and hard about that.

[@ssf9903]

The Book of Mormon is amazing and a man can get nearer to God by reading and studying the Book of Mormon than any other book on this earth. No man could have wrote that book and had it align so well with the Bible. There is no doubt it is a true book. Of course, you disagree and many reading these comments will disagree but a day will come when the truth will be revealed and all will know the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[@sertinduhm6378]

um, the BOM is not true, and provably so. 2nd Nephi 2 does a lot to prove this is not a work of God. The BOM makes the claim that sin was a good thing. I shouldn't have to explain why that is false.

[@Themanyfacesofego]

If the BOM is amazing why is it so poorly written?

[@3DFLYLOW]

​@@sertinduhm6378 You are just regurgitating what the church tells you to say.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

​​@@ThemanyfacesofegoYeah, I wouldn't for example quote from Paul in old testament times, and I would also not use Greek culture references when Lehi left for America before the Hebrews came in touch with Greek culture under Alexander the Great (Mosiah 4:27)

[@charlesmendeley9823]

You can get closer to God than using the Bible, because it was written in the 19th century for a more modern time and thus solves many modern problems the ancient Jews frankly didn't care about.

[@scottwins2]

They are comparing apples to oranges. I guess they don't understand inspiration. The Book of Mormon? they would do better to discuss it's principles and it's testimony of Christ I would think.

[@reddish22]

If it’s a demonstrated not-true thing, why would anyone care what it says?

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Scottwins2: No, they are doing fine discusing what they are actually discussing: Whether the BOM is an historical record....especially as it's teachings about Christ could already be found elsewhere. It may have some good teachings and mention Christ, but that's not the point. To evaluate the Mormon religion we need to look at what makes it DIFFERENT to other religions. Obviously there are serious questions about those things that make it different, such as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham.

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

You aren’t thinking if inspiration is how you determine truth…you are feeling! Critical thinking requires us to put away our emotions and deeply held convictions to study the evidence in a neutral and unbiased evaluation. You can be inspired by many ideas and concepts but that doesn’t make them true or historical.

[@lrsvalentine]

Principles? Which would they be? That God curses people with black skin to make them unattractive to white people?? Get outta here with your disgusting "Principles".

[@romanstarr01]

Realistically the mechanics of 𝘵𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘴𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘣𝘪𝘯𝘨 anything onto a plate of gold - think about what has to happen for that process to be completed. ɢᴏʟᴅ, of all things, to write a prolonged history of that many years.. Wrapping my head around that is painful enough.