Episode 64 - China Episode - But At What Cost? (ft. Radio Free Amanda)

AT WHAT COST ???
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The Article: www.liberationnews.org/why-ch...

[@theob6457]

As a graduate student, I can confidently say that we shouldn't be relying on graduate student papers for anything.

[@anmolt3840051]

But all papers are written by grad students

[@Bisquick]

​@@anmolt3840051 Lol, damn you informal logical fallacies! But seriously, just to ground this more firmly than a joke for anyone circumstantially unfamiliar (dialectical and historical materialism aka marxism being the more wholistic way of course), here's ex-CIA (no, but really though lol) whistleblower John Stockwell explaining the functionality offered by geopolitical hegemony regarding doing this same sort of "a lot of people are saying this" rhetorical smokescreen toward Cuba: youtube [dot] com/watch?v=NK1tfkESPVY

[@anmolt3840051]

@@Bisquick No sweat. I'm a grad student myself. I was just making a funny rejoinder to your observation because in my experience, it's not just that all papers are written by grad students, but the people who review these papers are also all grad students

[@master_ace]

As a post-grad, i wouldn't rely on post grad papers either... at least not mine, thats for sure lol

[@KekusMagnus]

I second that lmao

[@johnconnor8206]

Radio Free Amanda: Based leftist Radio Free Asia: Virgin American State Department Propaganda

[@Praisethesunson]

The Bois are so polite this episode. No nuts from Hakim. Snakes eat their own ass is censored. JT didn't say a single word. Very well behaved.

[@studijasymrov7630]

Like in episode with Konstantin Syomin

[@AndrewGillard]

“JT didn't say a single word.” 😹

[@bobsagat8054]

I think I've worked out who the problem podcaster is.

[@JLParent]

That’s cause the CCP silenced him!

[@attchi50]

classic JT

[@scroogemcdrip1948]

The "Chinese food is weird" thing is so ridiculous, like, my brother in Christ, Europeans eat slugs, sheep brain, frogs, intestines filled with intestines (Haggis), cheese that was eaten and pooped out by maggots etc. ...?

[@eggzzdee]

r/ItsOkayWhenWhitesDoIt

[@kokorochacarero8003]

Wait 'til the americans find out how their chicken nuggies are made But let's keep JT away from the demonstration. We must protect that jolly innocence at all costs!

[@My-nl6sg]

as a Chinese, specifically Cantonese from the south, we pride our identity around making amazing food out of literally anything as long as we don't harm the environment or ourselves🤣

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

When they start talking about various Chinese food scandals and you bring up pink slime.

[@Barten0071]

it's like "weird" is relative

[@nowhereman6019]

*Finally,* a China episode.

[@Xamsteriks]

But at what cost?!)

[@nowhereman6019]

@@Xamsteriks about an hour and twenty minutes of our time.

[@GuyWhoLikesTheSnarkies1435]

@@nowhereman6019 Now, we need another episode with Tings Chak, Prof. Michael Hudson or even Prof. Cheng Enfu (the author or Chinese Economic Dialectics)🤩

[@animexamera]

@@Xamsteriks JT's absence

[@eggzzdee]

@@animexamera We can't have the Yankoid around.

[@auroraofclanborealis]

On the whole "China covered up Covid"; in December of 2019 I did a current events report for school on Covid. It was known information, people just didn't listen.

[@danger_design]

I wonder why Hakim didn't begin the episode with a story about balls? 🤔

[@luifernando4002]

Damn. Big L

[@user-ud5uo8fm4x]

Amanda, would you say the western media has a mind goblin?

[@kazaddum2448]

Revisionism. Pure revisionism.

[@P.L.U.C.K.]

To be fair… I got nothing I cant defend him.

[@deptusmechanikus7362]

We got a episode about China… *…BUT AT WHAT COST?*

[@foofustherabbit]

Immediately disappointed as it launches straight into the opening tune rather than pre-opening banter about ball fondling

[@michimatsch5862]

Literally unlistenable.

[@joshbarghest7058]

This happens almost every time guest is on. Very sad.

[@jeffengel2607]

I worry that they may lose an occasional valuable guest if they require ball fondling banter as an opener each time. It's a sad world we live in, but there it is.

[@foofustherabbit]

@@jeffengel2607 We live in a less than perfect world but can strive to make it better.

[@skfmaown21093]

About the funding for Shen Yun… the reason they are able to do the things they do is that many of their followers give basically whatever they can to the organization, and the performers are paid next to nothing for the work they do. My parents, who are part of Falun Gong, still regularly volunteer for many weeks for no pay to help run Shen Yun whenever a touring group comes to our area.

[@anmolt3840051]

Part of Falun Gong? Eww

[@skfmaown21093]

@@anmolt3840051 ikr

[@My-nl6sg]

it must suck having parents like that, I have friends who have religious parents and that's bad enough, but the FLG is just on another level. I hope you're well

[@raindroplee8394]

@@My-nl6sg I found that FLG became less aggressive after it came to America. Before they left China, believers were encouraged to practice self-immolation once they obtained the Falun (I don't know what it exactly is tbh) and were rady to go to heaven. But in America, they just do some anti-science and anti-communism propagandas.

[@MarxistLeninists]

This was excellent, most of us Tibetans are with China because we were liberated from our serfdom. People in the west think this is like 80% of Tibetans but in fact these seperatist are 1% of serf owners 😂

[@enider]

Do you know if there have been any non-government polling on Tibetan support for the Chinese government? Considering the abhorrent treatment that the Tibetan people where experiencing under the local rulers it would be nice to have some sources to bring up for people who do not seem to comprehend what being a serfs means and how that effects a people’s view of those who seek to go back to a state that upheld such a system

[@thephilguy1]

Right off the bat the "debt trap diplomacy" concept is bunk at face value. This is what the IMF and World Bank have already been doing since the 1970s with structural adjustment packages and market liberalization in developing countries. At its worst, China is not doing anything that Western corporations and NGOs haven't already done.

[@geekyradical4985]

Yes, down with Western and Chinese imperialism in the Third World! Workers of all countries, unite!

[@SwervinNeons]

So basically what theyre doing is terrible lol

[@armchairwarrior963]

Even simpler way to tell no such thing. If it was true, they would have gone to the west to get the same loans. West could provide better loans. It's called competition. If someone is offering some thing so bad. They'll go to the next guy. Guess what next guy happens to be China. This is why they don't take loans from US/West anymore.

[@0candlestick0]

Holy fuck my elementary school paid for all of us to go and see the play they talk about multiple times

[@hug_bug]

how was the red tsunami in person?

[@starflowers1751]

"Communist tsunami" this is what the reps meant by Red Wave lmfao

[@missZoey5387]

The CCP organ harvesting story sounds eerily similar to that blood libel stuff

[@sicklecuthammerfall]

orientalism and anti semitism are mixed in with a lot of fervent anticommunism. its always sus.

[@thematronsmilitia]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Corporations Transatlantia. And to the Class it represents one Market, under the Invisible Hand Amen.

[@japanamericacar427]

When i was in highschool i had an assignment to write a paper on a news item from the past 2 years, and i decided to do chinese debt trap diplomacy, only examples i could find of this were the port in sri lanka and some smaller projects in pacific islands which all wernt traditional infrastructure (mainly random government buildings such as auditoriums and other public buildings) and much of the info i found was how companies or politicians who worked with these projects all had good regards for the chinese companies. usially saying stuff about how these projects actually boost the ecnomy, new jobs, and worked better with the local culture. ended up flipping my whole essay into being more neutral. saying how there should be an eye kept on these investments but they were a net good.

[@lucitheunlucky]

The podcast is great on its own merits, but the guests make it next level.

[@liasonlee1248]

Debt diplomacy huh, I am looking at you, IMF.

[@user-bv7zo6vd4m]

1:06:12 now I'm imagining a giant wave c with Marx's face on it crashing into a city while the internationale plays in the background

[@troywalkertheprogressivean8433]

Any accusations from america, is simply self reporting

[@muhammadsaqeeb5298]

I was kinda hoping for someone to talk about chinese politics, not just what us thinks of china

[@CEO_Of_Racism-fk3qv]

Bay area 415 has some great video's

[@P.L.U.C.K.]

If you are interested in Mao’s time, space babies here on yt has very long videos about communist china up until dheng

[@chronaursa1442]

@@CEO_Of_Racism-fk3qv can’t find Bay 415 channel. Said that it shut down

[@RedScareClair]

Sadly, many lefties struggle to be honest about China in its current state. China is state capitalist at best - Parenti has said this for a long time. It feels like because the CCP didn't crumble, we feel the need to hang on and defend them. Bad Empanada did a video a while back talking about exactly this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/naG3fZKkr5Wkqdk In my observation, most of the leftist Convo about China is just like this. Pointing out western media bias but no real discussion on what is actually happening and therefore no real analysis on what the modern day CCP is doing. Just my humble opinion.

[@P.L.U.C.K.]

@@RedScareClair I agree, I don’t know much about contemporary China but based on what I do know it seems that significant Chinese socialism died with Mao. I still have a lot of reading to do, they have a powerful public sector, but extremely exploitative private sector. Any resources you have that dig into contemporary China besides what you’ve mentioned?

[@elmandarin1002]

What a coincidence. I cant wait to hear what they'll have to say on next week's episode. 😂 💪🏽🎈🇨🇳

[@cucuserpent4]

Now I how how the Ohio people feel when they get a shout out. It’s really weird to be walking your dog in Flushing, and then the podcast you’re listening to references the exact town you’re in at that moment, lol.

[@justanormalyoutubeuser3868]

The most awaited episode.

[@bartvisscher2647]

Thanks for the Epoc Times connection, i will use that to perhaps help my mom realize what she’s reading

[@normalizenatalie]

i love amanda and was following her forever before my twitter got axed, thanks so much for having her on!! she's making content everyone should see

[@feresoththedamned2688]

Baby leftist from Algeria here, finally cought up to the weekly releases! This podcast was s blessing!

[@poldytim]

Stunningly articulate, sharp, knowledgable guest and not only on China. A true internationalist. Thank you for having her on.

[@bootstraphan6204]

One of your best and most informative episodes -imo, yet! 📚📖 🤓👍

[@wucarmine7871]

Heheh a wonderful birthday gift new episode of the Deprogrammed

[@SajtPanda]

Happy birthday

[@matteopani9291]

Happy birthday

[@emanuelneagu14]

happy birthday

[@kokorochacarero8003]

Happy birthday my dude!

[@hug_bug]

40:36 excellent foreshadowing

[@GETchan]

0:43 RIP Radio Free Grenada, they had some banger music. 😔

[@svodcat7524]

GET! \o/

[@Darloss9508]

Motherfookin GetChan, raise the red banner brother

[@Guillidan]

Hey GETchan! I know you only deal with socialist songs, but I always wanted to find out about the musical piece, that plays at the start of the Russian war film "Prisoner of the Mountains" aka [Kavkazskiy plennik]. Is it an actual march that exists, or was it just made for the film?

[@fruitjuice8]

Get GETchan on the podcast to discuss leftist music

[@danubeisreallypeculiarrive7944]

Hello there!

[@catfein9827]

Hiya fellows. Thanks so much for god dang new content! Hard to indoctrinate my friends and family without y’all. Party on!

[@P.L.U.C.K.]

I see it more as education, the more my family and friends see me openly speak on marxism and democracy the more interested they become.

[@Ajente02]

@@P.L.U.C.K. Education is always indoctrination. Following a doctrine isn't inherently bad, as long as such doctrine has its principles rooted in material reality and not in idealist illusions.

[@BS-bd4xo]

I wish I had such balls. I'm too scared that it might worsen any relationships. But at least I have my bro who was like "sure, prolly true".

[@pkpokeman]

Best episode so far thanks for this one!

[@jonirischx8925]

Yes. But have you considered china bad?

[@John-vu5qm]

It is

[@jonirischx8925]

@@John-vu5qm Nice bait... You're either a western lifestyle-leftist who thinks it more important to be critical of China because "tHeY eXpOrT cApItAL hurr durr iMpErIaLiSm" and because you're critical of so-called "authoritarian governments" - when it's clear you have no coherent political ideology that can actually seize power, and enact change where you actually live since you just want to criticize others - or you're a typical lib-brained westoid, who actually thinks the New York Times is a news outlet. Stfu.

[@John-vu5qm]

@@jonirischx8925 Neither. Isn't iMpErIaLiSm a problem to you?

[@jonirischx8925]

@@John-vu5qm Please elaborate your enlightened political views to us.

[@John-vu5qm]

@@jonirischx8925 China imperialist, imperialism bad, China bad.

[@mastergamr03]

my main question i would love to see answered; if it already is, is HOW you get alternative sources for information surrounding things like china, i’m pretty out of tune with online leftist spaces honestly so yeah

[@YouHaveAnApeHead]

Only 5 more episodes until funny sex number

[@friedrichengels5515]

Thanks for your work comrades

[@AnimeCleetus]

Such an important deep dive into a topic that's only going to explode in the upcoming years. Thank you Amanda for such great insight! And the boys as always thank you :)

[@user-ll9ch6ng3y]

Glad to see a China episode as a Chinese guy. However I and many leftist students I know still do have some disagreements with some of our comrades. First, I would say that the major contradiction of China nowadays is exactly class struggle, just as what Mao was always saying. The economy of China is now basically consisted of 2 parts: the private sector, which is based on private ownership of means of production, and the public sector, which is constantly reformed as market-oriented, and are basically just like normal state-own companies in the European-style social democracy. Both of the sectors operate in a regulated, but none the less, liberal market. This means the material basis of China is basically the same as those of social - democracy capitalism societies. An obvious example is just the number of billionaire entrepreneurs in China soared since the Reform & Reopen. That's why many of us leftist young people (many of us are Maoists and believe the party after Deng betrayed the revolution) in China today believe China is now a capitalist society and the party has been degenerated to a bourgeois party. Or more likely, we are just been tired of being exploited by big corporations in China, having to work 12 hours a day and cannot even afford an apartment, while watching government bail out big private property companies again and again and again.

[@user-ll9ch6ng3y]

One thing I sometimes get angry with our western comrades is you always like to lower the standard for cpc, even when they were massively privatizing the public-owned companies in the 90s, even when Xi boldly stepped on the Constitution of the republic, even when the government is privatising the metro these days, even when the government is actively suppressing women's right to get a divorce to keep up the birth rate (which is funny because a lot of our martyrs are marxist feminists, like Zhou Enlai) During a lot times, I always hear our western comrades say: "oh, they just have to....oh, they have no choice...oh, the situation requires...." And I just want to say: could it be that they are just degenerated like the social democrats in the 20th century? The material interests of keeping privatising everything and run a free market are good reasons, don't you think?

[@panoskatrin4910]

@@user-ll9ch6ng3y The communist party of my country is an orthodox marxist leninist party ,not a maiost but agrees that after 56 revizionism took hold of the ussr(not that it stopped being a socialist planned economy country at least up until the peristroika) and basically agrue that after mao the party in china toghter with the opening of the economy completly changed direction and is now an imperialist(monopoly capitalist) power(not the aggressive imperialism of the usa ofc but imperialism as an economic system like lenin defined it)Can i ask you if you agree with this analysis?Also if you do think that since the privatizations the economy is in the hands of a new capitalist class doesnt that mean that the state is in their hands as well?Would you agrue(that the correct ,not the short term goal) for a new overthrow of the state again to bring back the revolution?

[@user-ll9ch6ng3y]

@@panoskatrin4910 I basically agree with this analysis. And I think this kind of revisionism is actually a very important lesson for us communists today. I believe it is because in the ussr and china experiments the means of production was not in the hands of the proletariat, but in the hands of the bureaucrats which made them the new hidden bourgeois class. Yes, in theory everything is publicly owned but the bureaucrats knew more information and managed everything without enough democratic supervision and hence owned means of production de facto. Lenin and Mao and many others actually realised this problem and called it bureaucracy. One important fact of this problem was the privileges of party officials especially high-ranking officials, which grew massively during the Stalin period and late Mao period, they kept been parasites ever since and finally helpped to rip the whole planned economy system apart because they thought being real capitalists were more profitable. During early Reform and Reopening, there were records of state-operated company managers deliberately slow the efficiency to make the state sell them and then bought the companies themselves. And I think in future communist experiments we should make the means of production democraticly allocated to avoid this kind of things. We also need democracy at work place to take back power from management. As for my opinion about a new violent revolution in China, I am afraid so, I agree with that. Although I think the situation is more sophisticated: the CCP is always trying to be a good social democrat party to avoid disobedience, they can even sometimes have low-level conflicts with certain capitalists. So far, they are doing well because of the massive population benefit and plenty natural resources.(they are basically doing Keynesianism like Roosevelt) But this is not gonna last because of, well, the nature of capitalism, just see the housing market of China. So I believe the liberal bourgeois class will overthrow them some time in the middle of this century to quell discontent. There will be "reforms" and China will basically become another Russian Federation. And of course, the bourgeois cannot solve the problem since the problem is themselves. And then, I hope, the tradition of working class unity will finally return to China and the struggle will carry on.

[@panoskatrin4910]

@@user-ll9ch6ng3y well i do disagree with your analysis on the bureaucracy and on your critique of democracy(since it seems that you use the liberal notion of democracy in my opinion) in the ussr and early china i think its completly anti marxist to even try to consider it " a new class" since class is defined by the relation to the means of production and ownership rights and i also belive that the reforms and revionism happened not because of some sort of (intentional)corruption but by flawed thinking and revizionism in the communist parties of each country that was a result of the dificulties that both of these parties had to face after the end of ww2 on how they could rebuilt and win/suvive the cold war (althought i would agrue that at least the ussr kept its socialist character up until the peristroika )nevertheless i find what you have to say intresting and thanks for the awnser

[@user-ll9ch6ng3y]

@@panoskatrin4910 Yes I understand this "new bureaucratic bourgeois class" might be controversial. Yes, class is defined by the relationship to the means of production. But do we view this relationship? What does the ownership of means of production mean? Traditionally, the bourgeois invented the idea of private property and used it describe a kind of dictatorship on means of production. A factory owner can do what ever he wants to his machines and he hires people to do the work and takes the products away and we describe it as ownership of private property. And let us imagine another situation, in a state-owned factory, a pointed manager just arrived for his job. He knows the all the input and output of the factory, he can plan for how the machines are used, how the workers should do their job, etc. And if the workers do not have any real power to supervise him due to lack of knowledge of the figures and data, he can do basically whatever he wants to the machines and workers if nobody above him finds out. Now, isn't him now look like some kind of a semi-capitalist because his relationship to the means of production is some kind of personal control without workers' consent? Of course his power is limited compared to real capitalists but he can surely use him relation to the means of production to make some personal profit. It is actually the case for many state-owned companies in China during the 80s when manager would take some of the products and sold them in underground market. So I think taking them as some form of bureaucratic bourgeois is a dialectical way of thinking. And I have to make it clear: I am not talking about liberal democracy, I am talking about proletariat democracy, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, where the means of production will be publicly-owned, i.e., controlled by working-class democraticly. In addition, the reason why I think Deng and his fellowmen were corrupted and were deliberately doing this is that they gained massive personal wealth through this process. So I cannot say for sure, but I seriously doubt their motivations. Anyway thank you for discussing this with me, comrade!

[@thegentlelaborer8899]

59:00 - Falun Gong 1:08:20 - Shen Yuen Epoch Times

[@pallingtontheshrike6374]

my dad took a look through what the flg said and was like "yeah this is what you make when you're super high on drugs, like, this stuffs' basically just a dream, it's just fantasy" (rough paraphrasing) lol

[@ragerfrager]

This is the first episode I noticed that there are MTG cards in the table, nice

[@nusproizvodjach]

Great episode 🙌

[@nicoleelliott4297]

perfect background sounds to the bubble bonanza

[@Pospisk]

Damn it, I considered the debt trap diplomacy of China as granted truth. Thanks for the episode, my experience just showes an example what impact can this podcast have on changing minds of people.

[@johnschug6563]

The title won my heart ❤️

[@nowhereman6019]

I need to see a picture of the Marx-Tsunami.

[@winsonzhu4427]

wake up babe, deprogram China episode is here

[@MrBorderlands123]

JT was very informative in this one.

[@tripleaaakollektiv870]

very insightful, esp about Falun Gong; but around 1:16:00 yall use "organic" not in the sense of "organized organs of an organisation" (like Spivak) while meaning "autonomous, authentic, bottom-up"!?

[@tripleaaakollektiv870]

what about a talk about organic, organs, organized and organization?

[@notenoughmemes1847]

Makes me think back to when I used to watch China Uncensored, only to learn that they were backed by a Falon Gong corporation.

[@illiiilli24601]

Though they were pretty open about it, enough that I knew about it when I watched it

[@acid4413]

Multi trillion dollar defense budget vs 1 floaty boy

[@ruben7801]

Would be great to have an episode with someone like Carl Zha to really go in more depth on modern China itself

[@sovietbot6708]

What are your thoughts on lottocracy? If you want to see one Marxist's take on it, read "Any Cook Can Govern" by C. L. R. James

[@idkidc7513]

Banger

[@robertkalinic335]

You need to add a pinned comment or something, it wasnt known at the time but that story about data analyst from Florida was a total nutcase. It doesnt diminish their guilt for the negligence, but this story can be used to deflect any responsibility.

[@muffinfighter3680]

Please, invite Amanda again. This episode was very insightful. 🙏🙏

[@ananas_fin161]

We need a collaboration with Finbol.

[@MadJackChurchill1312]

Isn’t he a creep?

[@mek101whatif7]

@@MadJackChurchill1312 ?

[@tonttu7979]

@@mek101whatif7 you know just casual discord roleplay where you r word a minor

[@ananas_fin161]

@@tonttu7979 Wait he has discord ?

[@tonttu7979]

@@ananas_fin161 used to atleast idk about anymore

[@SuperTonyony]

The Valley Girl accent is never going to go away, is it? 😫

[@CraigKeidel]

It is often said "no war but class war", but we overlook the incredibly important cold war of Valley Girl Accent vs Staten Island Accent

[@ChiliForEveryone]

My contribution towards the algorithm Regarding the IMF's loans™ **terms and conditions apply**, Soekarno, Indonesian revolutionary and its first president, once said this right in the face of US congressmen AND IIRC, President Eisenhower "TO HELL WITH YOUR AID" HE knew what's up with the jig. IN EARLY 1960s! I'm honestly surprised we haven't learned anything since

[@zainmudassir2964]

Chynaa! Seriously though good ep bois 👍

[@a.s.8104]

You should do an episode about BlackRock and Vanguard

[@michimatsch5862]

Deborah Broadingham, atlantic piece.

[@dannydenison6253]

Ive been getting a ton of adds from epoc times

[@michimatsch5862]

1:04:00

[@lasttarrasque6223]

now this wouldn't be controversial

[@gabrieldavis7128]

1:02:18 Living in Florida and Yep, posters for this garbage is everywhere.

[@jpolitic6640]

The Boys vs Chyna

[@OneAngryPagan616]

I wonder how true it would be to say þæt þe Legacy of þe Roman Empire, has in fact been western-style Imperialism and should we in þe West look to NOT continue to emulate þem going forward...?

[@Weromano]

finally!

[@muhammadsaqeeb5298]

Radio free amanda. Damn u guys are brave

[@jiseokseo943]

58:41

[@P.L.U.C.K.]

You fellers should try to get “Space Babies” on the show, hes a leftist rapper with some good music

[@klsinger124]

I’m pogging so hard about this

[@Huy-G-Le]

The NGO thing too, Japanese NGO also are ultra-right wing, even in manga.

[@James-jh3sz]

They're virtually always really right wing because they are funded by billionaires.

[@cursedpotato4470]

LESSS GOOOO

[@kiesarisunny13]

Chin- ah!

[@guapochico69]

Hilarious episode lol

[@cmccoy793]

lol why? Is there something I'm missing or am I just not that far in?

[@guapochico69]

@@cmccoy793 the part about the right wing cult and the shen hu dance is pretty funny near the end

[@Woow_Dude]

Let's goo

[@thatguyryan5902]

I’m late to the party when it comes to watching the podcast, but I just had a question specifically about China and the Uyghur situation. While I completely support the notion that U.S colonialism is a truly deplorable thing and is what our entire country is essentially founded on, I don’t really understand the belief that this train of thinking justifies the situation with the Uyghurs in China. I definitely don’t think I have enough information to know the full story but based on what I do know it seems like a really big problem. I do believe that China is overly criticized because of its place in history as a hugely successful eastern Asian socialist power, but it’s the one thing specifically that I haven’t really been able to have an opinion against those problems. Other than that main question, the episode was great, and going on a huge deep dive into the debt-myth was great! Super good episode! Edit: I think I kinda answered my own question. I’m just dumb my bad

[@jansecj9472]

I think there is no real problem, but mostly anti-china propaganda noise from the west. Just put on google "mosque beijing", there is a ton of mosques, churches and religious temples of any kind. There is really no real "persecution of minorities" as the west says, on contrary, there is a huge diversity of religions (probably bigger than in US). So, this was just a big fabricated lie. The real problem is/was with a particular SEPARATIST GROUP, that's illegal in China and probably also in most countries. Then the heads of western capitalism just tried to weaponize it against China, and that's actually not a new thing, they historically tried to fragment and divide China since long time ago. And you are not dumb, asking these types of questions in good faith is great, specially in good places for learning like this one here. Another place that's usually constantly defamed by the west is North Korea. I would recomend a video from boy boy (2 guys from Australia) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHOyaWZ_nJJ4bqc So, the thing we have to keep in mind is: western capitalism will always try to sabotage, defame, fragment every country that had/have a popular revolution or popular goverment. It's not like these places don't have any problems, it's that the gigantic majority of "news" from the west about them are distorted fact, half truths or plain defamation in form of "anti" propaganda.

[@khanusman12]

​@@jansecj9472 Genuinely asking, do you have any sources to back this up? The UN literally had witnesses testify to the treatment of Uyghurs and has stated that it has almost half a million people in mass reeducation camps, with horrific conditions including torture and rape. This does not align at all with what you've just said.

[@athtar]

​@@khanusman12 Just go there and see for youself

[@mrpieceofwork]

Putting this here for more People to see it... re: a reply under the top most comment (as of this writing)... Not all education is indoctrination, and one succinct example to illustrate that is the observation of Nature. Biology, Geology, Oceanography and Meteorology are not there to indoctrinate us, it's all just there, and we learn (get educated) about it.

[@Ajente02]

The modern observation of natural sciences (biology, geology, oceanography, meteorology) also follow certain philosophical doctrines (like positivism, materialism, subjectivism, idealism, as some of the most common ones in current scientific spaces). Search for _"Current Controversies in Philosophy of Science"_ (2020) as an example of the doctrinarian discussions (some of which are slightly more inclined than others with the materialist worldview defended by Marxism). Science isn't neutral, it can't be (as it's made by human beings, who take part of the world, it's necessarily always partial). All education is indoctrination. But indoctrination isn't a bad thing, as long as the doctrines are funded in material reality and not in mysticisms or idealistic illusions.

[@WarpPotato]

"Geostrategic" Yikes

[@meis]

Shen Yun dance cult tries hard to represent Chinese culture is similar to PRC bashers tell you that TW is the real China.

[@maximetroli9732]

I would pay 100 bucks to see a tsunami of Karl Marx's face

[@Standard.Marxist.Broadcasting]

Can you all do a Collab with Midwestern Marx

[@RedYellowBird6889]

Finally the based state is here.

[@svodcat7524]

OMG They got a new American and they were nice to here all the way, I was thinking wow, they're much nicer to the new one, then she said, 'IDK if you guys live in the US'. Lol.

[@thematronsmilitia]

Damnit Ned, you're subverting the hopes of a future worth living again

[@hugocastellanos4223]

Shen Yun is a very boring dance, don't go you fall asleep.

[@raindroplee8394]

While it is necessary to clear some myths about China and I really really appreciate all of your works, I think in this channel, you should examine China from left-wing positions if you're serious about this topic. I.e. not only use China as a tool to criticize US. Surely the American right-wing propagandas about China are ridiculous, but it doesn't mean China is clean. In second thoughts channel, you mentioned how US companies use intimidations to prevent worker unions, but in China establishing union is legally prohibited. Like the 2018 Jasic incident, students and workers who cooperated to form an union were sent to jail. The rights to go on a strike were also canceled shortly after Deng Xiaoping took power. You said western techs like KZbin and Facebook are leaning towards capitalism, but China has tighter censorship. Marxism or Maoism promoting videos are also among the list. (Marxism is compulsorily taught in universities may be the only previlage, but most students don't care about it anyway.) To conclude, Chinese leftists basically agree that China had turned into a revisionism country after 1978. Some people believe that China has even became a bearucratic capitalism country. Either way, it is not socialism anymore.

[@Turdfergusen382]

North Korea

[@LConstP]

I really missed some involvement from the hosts here. You should really put the brakes on from time to time, especially when your guest is speeding along at 50 whataboutisms per hour.

[@Evvins]

Agreed, I was wondering if I was being to harsh on my judgement but I feel like a lot of the discussion boiled down to "The US should not call China out for doing fucked up things because they also do them". And yeah, obviously the US's hypocrisy is off the charts. China doing fucked up things is still fucked up tho, and I feel like they failed to acknowledge that.

[@sykora9526]

I identify as a Marxist or at the very least an anti-capitalist, but Ive always been very wary of China because of the horrible things I hear about there, whether its the extreme censorship and state control over the Internet there, the child labor, the fact that they have wage labor and privately owned businesses and often people in China work for dirt cheap making American products, and a genocide of Ughuir (spelling idk) Muslims. By all accounts to me it seems China isnt socialist at all and more of a state run capitalism that has many of the same flaws as the US. I came to this episode in particular to see what yall had to say, and granted I haven't watched the episode entirely yet, but y'all brought up the Ughuir Muslim thing, and instead of addressing it, just deflected and said, well the US does this shit all the time and is just projecting. Which is true, not defending the US in the slightest, the US are the global baddies. But why not at the very least address the situation more clearly? Ill admit im not really informed on the topic, i came here to try and find more information on it. Is the genocide actually happening or not? And if it is, we should he condemning it and not sweeping it under the rug just because its inconvenient for our movement. I want socialism (not dem soc garbage, an actual democratization of the workplace) in the states but we have to make sure that we dont sacrifice our own priniciples in the process.

[@Lil_Fella99]

I’d say the biggest example of Debt Diplomacy is the Belton Road Initiative. Tricking Kenya into “building a railway system” and that it would all be positive because it would give Kenyans a lot of jobs and it would increase the infrastructure. Then when it started there were no extra jobs because China just outsourced all the jobs to Chinese natives. Then they left them with a functioning railway system without any extra parts or expertise dooming it to just rust and rot away while having incurred a huge debt that they still have to pay off for a now defunct railway system.

[@Lil_Fella99]

Adding to that calling the way China handled Covid a succes is just plain delusion. Locking and barring people in their houses is not only cruel but dangerous. I’ve seen someone jump out of their window and her daughter couldn’t get to her ‘cus the door was barred off. I’ve seen people burning alive in an apartment building because yet again they welded the fucking exit doors shut. Not the mention having to stand in mile long queues just to get your daily tests. Which they often just faked by “testing” windows or truck mirrors just to get their quota.

[@Lil_Fella99]

I love China, but the CCP (mostly Xi Baozi and his chronies) are just incapable. Xi is a princeling that was born into wealth and never had to work a day in his life, China is no longer communist. It is one of the most cut throat capitalist countries around.

[@Lil_Fella99]

And another point, Xi’s poverty relief programme failed miserably. He did nothing until the last day of the 5 years in which his plan should have worked out. The lasts day he just lowered the poverty line to $350 a year, great solution to solve poverty when no one is called poor anymore. There was a decently popular video on Weibuo of a poorer family celebrating their wedding and it was removed because showing poverty is now illegal in China. (This came with the law that bans “citizen journalism”)

[@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc]

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode and I wholeheartedly agree regarding the hypocrisy of western propaganda against China, specially with the uyghur people. That said, I think we shouldn't also accept the chinese government word on this, two things can be true at the same time. US and its allies are feigning concern even though we all know what the west has done to muslims for centuries now. At the same time China might also be commiting crimes against the uyghur. You should have Bad Empanada one day in your show, he has done good work regarding this topic. kzbin.info/www/bejne/maucenZ8edBrgNU Or maybe I have swallowed propaganda, I don't now 🥴

[@geekyradical4985]

If you want a non-Western, Marxist perspective on the treatment of Uighurs in China, I recommend reading ChinaWorker. They have a pretty good article which explores the topic quite thoroughly. It's called 'China and the Uighurs: On Xinjiang and the Falling Uighur birth rate'.

[@citizenoftheworld2694]

First

[@REGGiiEz]

Was disappointed that rather than countering western 'evidence' for the Uyhur concentration camps the guest immediately deflected into a whataboutism. First episode I had to actually turn of because I personally didn't enjoy the guest. There just wasn't a lot of nuance in what she said. Podcasts like RevLeft or GH have great episodes with great experts on these topics.

[@geekyradical4985]

If you want a non-Western, Marxist perspective on the treatment of Uighurs in China, I recommend reading ChinaWorker. They have a pretty good article which explores the topic quite thoroughly. It's called 'China and the Uighurs: On Xinjiang and the Falling Uighur birth rate'.

[@thatguyyouhatealot]

Yeah, I don't mind pointing out that their work camps are far more humane than how we deal with Islamic Extremism but also why not attack the fact that this genocide is a fabrication?

[@princekrazie]

A Muslim supports the Chinese government's policy in Xinjiang.... Ironic. I wonder what Mihrigul Tursun and Tursunay Ziyawudun think about this.

[@eggzzdee]

Oh you mean the Nayirah Testimony 2.0? Yea, very credible. Also, you do know that virtually every Muslim country supports China's Xinjiang policy right? They've visited the place too.

[@Ajente02]

I mean, Hakim has said in earlier interviews that he supports the Chinese government's policy in Xinjiang against Yihadist terrorism COMPARED with the US-American government's policy in Irak/Afghanistan/Syria against Yihadist terrorism. Because, yeah, it's more preferable to "forcefully" reeducate and even "forcefully" overwork radicalized Muslims, instead of killing and bombing them (alongside the civil population around them) while destrying every single infrastructure in the way.

[@jamesrowlands8971]

hey Prince Krazie can I ask what you think of the USA torturing Uyghurs at Guantanamo and bombing them in Afghanistan?

[@princekrazie]

@@jamesrowlands8971 Thats terrible. Thats a crime against humanity. By the way can I ask you about the Chinese government separating Uyghur families, sending strangers to sleep into Uyghur homes, forbidding Uyghur cultural practices, and forcing Uyghurs to learn Han Chinese, and raping people in prisons, and incarcerating mass amounts of Uyghur people?

[@jamesrowlands8971]

@@princekrazie have you got a non-western source for any of those claims?

[@Dhumm81]

This is about as unserious as evaluating one fundamentalist religion solely by considering the ridiculous criticisms of a competing fundamentalist religion. "Well, it turns out they don't actually sacrifice babies to The Devil, so I guess they are The One True Religion(c)."

[@YaBoiHakim]

Congrats on missing the point. This episode is about popular Western media representation of China. They don't have nuanced criticisms of i.e. commodity production or MLM talking points; it's literally just racism and warmongering (and deserves to be made fun of). This is what is being critiqued. Everyone here has their own criticisms of China, but this episode wasn't the time for that (very long) discussion.

[@Dhumm81]

@Porky Strawman bad, get it?

[@kokorochacarero8003]

I think the point wasn't to outright elevate China as the pinacle of socio-economic development, but rather to refute and challenge what is commonly regurgitated and circulated among mainstream circles Your quote would've been more of an accurate comparison if you left out the "(...) so I guess they are The One True Religion"

[@KickinRadTopHat]

Yeah man that’s definitely what’s happening lol

[@Ajente02]

@@YaBoiHakim I would honestly LOVE to hear an episode taking into considerations the actually valid criticisms of China, while at the same time denouncing all the stupid stuff propagandized by Western media.