Gnosticism - Cathars and Catharism: Historical Fact or a Delusion of the Inquisition?

The Cathars represent a Gnostic survival into the Christian Middle Ages. They were dualists who argued for an egalitarian church founded on angelic purity, apostolic poverty, and through a single sacrament sought to release the soul from it's physical prison. The Catholic Church saw them a utterly heretical and sought to systematically destroy their popular strongholds in southern France through 20 years of Crusader Violence and Inquisition. There's only one problem with this story: recent, maverick scholarship has forcefully argued that the Cathars and Catharism, quite simply, never existed at all. Join me, in collaboration with ‪@LetsTalkReligion‬ , as we discuss the Cathars, Catharism and the arguments for and against their historical existence.
Check out Filip's channel here: / @letstalkreligion
#cathars #catharism #albigensians
Comments which reject or mock the skeptical position without showing evidence of serious engagement with it (i.e., citations, counter-points, evidence from historical records or traditionalist scholarship) will be deleted. Regardless of one's position, respect and careful treatment of the work of scholars is a non-negotiable on this channel.
Recommended Readings:
Primary Sources:
Wakefield - Heresies of the High Middle Ages - 978-0231096324
Léglu, Catherine, Rebecca Rist and Claire Taylor (eds.) The Cathars and the Albigensian Crusade: a Sourcebook (London: Routledge, 2014)
Traditionalists:
Barber, Malcolm, The Cathars: Dualist heretics in Languedoc in the High Middle Ages, Second edition (Harlow, United Kingdom: Pearson, 2013)
Lambert, Malcolm, The Cathars (Oxford; Malden, Mass.: Blackwell Publishers, 1998)
Lansing, Carol, Power and purity: Cathar heresy in Medieval Italy (New York: Oxford University Press, 1998)
Taylor, Claire, Heresy in medieval France: Dualism in Aquitaine and the Agenais, 1000-1249 (Woodbridge, UK; Rochester, NY: Royal Historical Society/Boydell Press, 2005)
Skeptics:
Moore, R. I., The War on Heresy (Cambridge, Mass.: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2012) clio.columbia.edu/catalog/141...
Pegg, Mark Gregory, A Most Holy War: the Albigensian Crusade and the battle for Christendom (Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2008) clio.columbia.edu/catalog/141...
Sennis, Antonio (ed.), Cathars in Question (York: York Medieval Press, 2016)

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

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[@davj1481]

Are there any archaic recounts from the Templars weren't they supposed to be responsible for the crusades against the gnostics. Are there any diaries or any writings?

[@davj1481]

And what of the demiurge...

[@sicituradastra4295]

°•*:((🌞)):*• . /°\ . •*:((🌑)):*•°

[@rueporter2253]

@@davj1481 it still reigns supreme. Checkout godgevlamste channels work. Get last the moon map stuff , which is still very interesting and entertaining,and get to his take on His-Story and templars and other controllers I will not mention here for obvious reasons. I'm no hater, just trying to get to the facts. Much and more is deception, inversion and duplication. And if you know ol yaldas methods, you know it still sits and dictates all we are put through. I believe that this is co.ing to a head now. Titans maybe even being brought back. Reality is so much cooler than capitol S science will admit.

[@rueporter2253]

@@davj1481 A great show on HBO max is called raised by wolves, it tells the whole mother, demiurge, reset catastrophe cycle. It even says that the core never existed in earth, buy will be all that is destroyed . And by all, it means all life . Look at the intro with subtitles in to get an idea if you might be into it. I had to watch it many times and Everytime my jaw drops ans I get a little upset. We can stop this, but we have much work to change.our ways .

[@NielMalan]

As an old soldier this reminds me of the pitfalls of counter-insurgency warfare: If one does not carefully identify the enemy and accurately estimate their motives one might very well create the enemy you imagined.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

This is a very important insight

[@Shwettyapple]

You said it!

[@feloniousbutterfly]

This happens time and time again.

[@sicituradastra4295]

The enemy lies within ...

[@jydanssi]

Judaism and Christianity create a perfect dualism.

[@LetsTalkReligion]

Yours is definitely the cooler of the two videos! A pleasure to work together as always!

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

No way, brother ! Always so wonderful to work together!

[@fanenthusiast3802]

Do one on the Sarmoung. Maybe a second video on the fourth way. And a third on where those beliefs can be found today? Just throwing the idea out there. God Bless

[@olegkirovskii2720]

both of you make marvellous videos

[@TheSanbao]

You are both cool!!! Such a nice combination.... The magical, dualist : it is and it isn't 🌟 Thank you!!!!

[@daddyleon]

@@TheEsotericaChannel I love this mutual bromance

[@DwRockett]

“Guys, I’m really worried there is a dualist heresy in the south” “Hmm, this is a grave concern. Let’s torture this man to see if there is a dualist heresy in the south” “By St. Martin, after hours of torture he confessed to it! We need to stamp this out before it’s too late!” Fascinating video, great job

[@samrevlej9331]

As a French humanities student, I learned about this historiographical debate when we were doing a seminar on "The 'Beautiful 13th Century': France, Italy, Holy Roman Empire". We spent a couple of weeks of the topic, and I was completely floored: I'd never been particularly interested by the Cathars, but I'd learned about them as heretics/religious dissidents who'd been exterminated by a crusade, and I vaguely thought they had special castles in the mountains. My teacher, who wasn't a medievalist, had learned about this while preparing the seminar and was visibly excited to tell us about this debate, and how he thought it had been settled (at least in France) when the respected review "Les Cahiers de Fanjeaux" published the 2020 Fanjeaux conference proceedings called "Le 'catharisme' en question". Since this publication is considered an authority on the matter of Occitan religious history in the medieval period, the teacher considered the matter pretty much settled as far as scholarship is concerned and that the holdouts were just bitter old scholars refusing to admit they'd been wrong on the subject they'd written on for decades. As you've noted, it's weird how little this academic debate has translated into public perception of history. In Occitania I can understand the political and economic reasons, as they've really been capitalizing on the "Cathar brand" for tourism with "Cathar castles" and "Cathar country". Also, Occitan regionalists and nationalists have been using Cathars to make their case on their oppression by northern France since the 1970s, which btw is demonstrably true with or without the Cathars as a full-blown counter-Church.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

It's really an important topic least of all about the importance of historiography

[@samrevlej9331]

@@TheEsotericaChannel Yes. As an aspiring history student, it really helped me understand the field I wanted to specialize myself in (I was in a more generalist humanities curriculum, including literature, geography and philosophy). The difficulty of teaching about a still debated topic to a non-specialist audience in a limited timeframe too. Luckily, I had two great history teachers who managed to make me realize how much history interested me. The Cathar problem also kickstarted my interest in religious studies, heresies and the Gregorian Reform + the medieval Inquisition. It's not what I specialize in today - I'm focused on medieval Mediterranean history, specifically Latin-Byzantine-Muslim interactions - but it got me interested in how religiously diverse the medieval world in and beyond Europe was.

[@delphinidin]

So what I'm hearing is that the "Cathar heresy" is a very violent medieval version of the 1980s "Satanic panic".

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Yes exactly

[@LlamaOccident]

Imagine Alex Jones as an inquisitor

[@Asehpe]

@@LlamaOccident It's so easy to imagine him as an inquisitor it's almost uncanny. Vade retro Satana!

[@gusduenasArt]

Actually no, the cathars crusade was a cover story for a crusade to shift the power structures in the Langue d’ Oc or Occitan in favor of the Catholic Church . The satanic panic was made to sell books and a lot of bad movies…I don’t know if the Albigensian crusade was motivated by money too

[@gusduenasArt]

@@LlamaOccident not , Torquemada was really educated.

[@thecriticalscholar8680]

This video is so much more than a great companion of the Let's talk religion counterpart video. Keep up the good work Dr Sledge and I hope you do a video on Orthodox Christianity soon.

[@fanenthusiast3802]

I love this stuff. I'd like to see one on the Sarmoung.

[@totoji]

I was about to comment how they uploaded almost at the same time.

[@darkartsbyadrienne]

So happy (mostly relieved) to know that Academia can shed new light on old topics. Not to knock anyone. The more of a critical eye, the greater the knowledge! Understanding context & examining the historical evidence. Understanding our modern need to project our values on to the past. So important! Excellent video!

[@Mr.RobotHead]

Great video! I've always been fascinated with the Albigensian Crusade, and always knew it was political (Languedoc and Provence had far stronger cultural and political ties to Catalonia than France), and felt that any heresy was just the excuse. I think this is the first time I've encountered the argument that the Cathars never even existed, and now I'm going to dive into the rabbit hole...

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

If nothing else, it's a compelling enough argument for anyone that's only heard the traditionalist argument to take another look at the material.

[@maelstrom2594]

Also important to note that the Catholic church was the largest political power of the day and almost everything they did was politically motivated. In todays terms the church was the de facto super power of Europe. I'm sure self preservation was an important motivating factor and innocents were nothing more than collateral damage.

[@re9498]

If it was political, why did the King of France refuse to intervene till 1223? Why did Simon de Montfort offer homage to Peter II, King of Aragon, rather than the King of France in 1211? Why was the County of Toulouse not annexed by the French Crown till 1271, long after everyone who participated had died? Why did the French King Phillip Augustus tell Innocent III he already recognized the Count of Toulouse as a vassal? We are too quick to assume that the Albigensian Crusade was just a pretext for French expansion when the King of France, Phillip Augustus, had plainly refused to support the venture until 1223. Phillip did not support the Crusade and even protested to the Pope in favor of Raymond VI that his rights were not being respected and he was, in theory, already a vassal of France. Moreover, Simon de Montfort's mission as leader of the Albigensian Crusade never requires him to pay homage to the King of France nor did the Pope or Papal Legates order him to do so. By all rights, it seemed as if Simon was going to be another independent lord in Occitania and likely a vassal of Peter II which was the case from 1211-1213 until Peter turned on him.

[@joancassolacoenders7332]

@@re9498 A half true is worse that de whole lie

[@theresiamallee4569]

@@re9498 France was very much devided in that time by reforms of chuch and worship and whole aristocratic families were split by this. But I have to say that it was always economicly, politicly and for fear of a bad after life, better not to mingle in the matters of the church, plus evryone always wanted a piece of it. And the church the most. So time after time the langedoc was left to their lot. The history of conspiring and scheming goes a long way back in to time.....

[@justasoul1501]

This channel came into being, simply put, at the perfect time in my life. I appreciate how knots of contradiction are unwound, while still upholding the importance of our spiritual origins.

[@gabriellawrence6598]

Excellent as always, very comprehensive. About the pescetarian thing, if I'm not mistaken, many a species of fish reproduce by external fecundation (that is, formally, a sexuated reproduction but with no intercorse) in a way that there is no body contact or "act". I don't know if they had this scientific knowledge in Antiquity, but it's an interesting fact to know.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Neat!

[@Garyescargo]

It seems to me they did know it even if maybe it was forgotten how they discovered this fact, remembered simply as the truth. Maybe, Idk.

[@EdwardIglesias]

As someone who grew up in the 70s and read Murray's Witch Cult book as part of the curriculum in my very fancy mail order witchcraft course, I can really relate to the folks who now have to question their narratives. Nonetheless, I'll take the current state of Paganism, Instagram and all, over the hard fought crumbs of inaccurate pseudo texts we had to work with any day.

[@beth7935]

Yep, as a 90s teenager I was like, "wow, there were still witches/pagans!" I'm very much "give me PROPER evidence, please!" these days, & I see modern Paganism as a reconstructed- but no less valid!- religion that may not be much like historical paganism at all, considering we know so little about that. I wasn't bothered when that theory was debunked, but at other times I've had to bash my head & go "BE OBJECTIVE & ACCEPT THIS GOOD EVIDENCE!!!" 😂

[@merc9nine]

I went to the mail today and there were girls clearly under driving age walking around with essentially bikini tops. I'm not even religious but I'd take Sharia over the Instagram culture. Turning every woman into a prostitute is not progress.

[@misskate3815]

Tbh, after listening to both sides, I find myself coming down in the middle. The ppl we call Cathars don’t sound like they would have had an organized religious order as portrayed by traditionalists, but I find it hard to believe that the crusade would have taken off over a few peasants being misinterpreted by ignorant xenophobes. On the other hand, I find myself more and more persuaded by the “witch hunt” analogy, so I want to learn more about the skeptic side. Thanks for the great video!

[@porcudracului]

Why is it so hard to believe? Aren't there enough examples today and/or throughout history where the exact same thing happened?

[@misskate3815]

@@porcudracului because I’m not buying into a myth that seems to have been created years after the facts.

[@uncommonsensewithpastormar2913]

Excellent, well researched video. Whether the Cathars really existed or not is secondary to the greater truth that history is as much created as discovered.

[@willemkossen]

This might be one of your best videos so far. Very insightful, respectful. Very interesting! Looking forward to the follow up videos!

[@karenmaksart]

Thank you Professor! It took me more than a month to finally understand how to donate and comment here... I love your work and the time you spend to bring this information to us. And I definitely support you!

[@marcinreutt2044]

Wow, great work and approach (as always on this channel). Thank you, can't wait for any follow-up on this🙏👌

[@sstringfellowc]

Excellent. Thanks for keeping apprised of what's going on. And thanks for the extra readings/ viewing sources. Looking forward to checking them all it.

[@kenclarkeis]

Both videos are wonderful. Thank you for bringing such great scholarship. Learnt many things from this collaboration.

[@donaldhowie9661]

Excellent program. There do seem to be some interesting parallels between the effect of the Dominican Inquisition on our understanding of the Cathars and the effect of the Roman Inquisition on our understanding of the benandanti in the Friuli area of Italy a few centuries later, giving some added credence to the skeptics of the traditional narrative.

[@chroniclesoflucifer]

Thank you for your research and delivery. Fascinating info!

[@mistyhaney5565]

I haven't done the reading yet, but I want to thank you for providing such resources.

[@jbaquinones]

The people, the cultures, the wisdom that was butchered in the name of greed and control. What shame.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Agreed, that level of violence is just utterly shocking.

[@jovenintensa]

The history of the world hitherto has been the history of class struggle.

[@chaplam-lee949]

"looking for what was actually there and not what I want to be there" is a very scholarly statement

[@JohnBrownsBody]

I’ve recently come to your channel and I gotta say I’m loving everything on here. It truly is excellent. I’ve read Montaillou and was fascinated by that world, but I was left scratching my head wondering how these peasants in the mountains of Languedoc became enmeshed in the complicated theology of gnosticism replete with a counter-clergy. Not that peasants couldn’t come to believe in heretical or even intellectual theological ideas, but I was really curious about the process by which that happened - especially with it’s supposed origins in Bulgaria. This idea that it was a misreading of local idiosyncratic religious practices and weaved into a grand conspiracy to destroy the church makes a lot more sense to me. Cheers, and keep up the good work!

[@Garyescargo]

I think it has a lot to do with how much knowledge the person has gained up to the point that their personal convictions force them to tread a certain path. But I don't know much.

[@triciatallman4514]

Great presentation! Thanks for sharing this.

[@ceilhuicamina1698]

Excellent introduction to the topic! Thank you very much!

[@kevinamaral5816]

This is such an amazing video. Just thinking your way through this debate is super fun and valuable.

[@shannondelsol468]

Thank you. Thank you! My interest in the Cathars, and also just seeking truth, goes way back. Ten years ago, there was very little information online - or anywhere - about the Cathars. For me… this very well researched and informative monologue was deeply satisfying - and also somehow validating. Well done!

[@WendysOccultCompass]

I love this video! Thanks so much for all you do. As humans we cling to identifications. It's so interesting to ponder if a conspiratorial idea can shape and create a movement/group of conspirators.

[@MrLumagu]

Love your work! Keep it up! :)

[@MonsterPainter]

Such a thoughtful examination of a subject that draws out the crazies. Thank you.

[@doctor77talktalk]

Have been really taken with the channel and your well presented content. My first book was Ladurie - Montaillou and then five more since then - none from the sceptic side - need to read a little more before i can draw conclusions. So many shattered illusions in my 60 years of Templar hunting - one more will not hurt.

[@donjezza]

Just discovered your channel from Let's Talk Religion and I love it, will check out more of your videos for sure :)

[@BeverlyAcupuncture]

Thanks for the references. Love your sense of humor.

[@fraterzigmund]

I have played so many games of Carcassonne and I never knew about its history!

[@rightcheer5096]

"But I have never been to Carcassone..." .

[@luisvargas1526]

As a none duelist, I enjoy reading about all religions, their theologies, and philosophies. I feel it adds to my spiritual understanding of how humanity struggled with new ideas, and cultural diversity in thought and practice. With that said, I appreciate your exposition, your questions, and ideas based on an educated, philosophical, and psychological approach to its content. Thank you. Greatly appreciated

[@llynhunter]

Very cool. I was introduced to the Cathars through Massacre at Montségur: A History of the Albigensian Crusade by Zoé Oldenbourg. Obviously much has been written since this book. I enjoyed your analysis of this new consideration, it does make a lot of sense. Thank you for the reading lists as well, I think the skeptics and you might be on to something.

[@damiandossantos5077]

first time hearing this theory and it just blew my mind.. It actually makes more sense that inquisitors just labelled any "witch" or heretic" as such.. i think that in most places local mythology and folklore of the past was incorporated in the new religion depending separate communities and as the catholic faith progressed and became more unified in theology and through fear of inquisitions, ancient traditions got rooted out. Like you say unfortunately all we know about these so called cathars is what the victors wrote about them.. Any ways great video as always sir

[@ericsmith1801]

The Troubadour tradition in Southern France was also contemporaneous with the existence of the Cathars. Love was the highest goal of the troubadours--and most important. In fact for 100 years approximately until about 1240 the troubadours plied their interest. This happened in several countries in Europe, also in Iran and Japan where love was held in highest esteem for about 100 years. The hippie culture in the Middle Ages :)

[@AlexGoldhill]

I've also heard that this focus on love, particularly romantic courtly love, was influenced by the Islamic world via Spain where Muslim theologies, particularly in various Sufi traditions, place far greater emphasis on the importance and significance of love in contrast to Christianity which saw love, outside of very specific circumstances, as a potential vector for irrational passions and sinful lust. This would go on to heavily influence popular medieval literature, particularly the Arthurian Romance, with previously cautionary tales about the corrupting dangers of last being reinterpreted in a more noble and positive light, most notably the affair between Lancelot and Guinnevre.

[@ericsmith1801]

@@AlexGoldhill The case of the Moslem occupation Spain was

[@BeforeTheCause]

Excellent video. I always enjoy your work. Great job here. I screenshotted the Demiurge moment... just to have. Hilarious. Keep it up, my bro.

[@johncollins211]

Dr Justin always coming with that heat! The Nolan Ryan of esoteric teachers.

[@Maikeru176]

Fantastic video! I actually wrote my seminar piece this past year on the Crusade and the validity of it even being this war on heresy that skeptics have put forward. And while I can't exactly say whether Cathars did or did not exist, I definitely believe the war was fought on the ground of controlling Languedoc and the larger, autonomous Occitan sphere. Even the way primary sources of the time describe the sort of hatred many fighting showed towards each other hints quite a bit at some of the dislike French lords and Italian clergy had for a group of people "harboring heretics," let alone the Song's more patriotic second author painting the Occitan people as defenders of the righteous. All I can really say in the end is the case that the history of the French sort of just beating up their southern subjects is a bit telling considering the language is spoken by less than one million and at the time of the war was one of the most influential Romance languages.

[@LucodeHome]

Really great video. I did made a study about what happened in the region some time ago. Especially from the social and spiritual perspective it was the actual hot-spot what did emerge into a global shift of the consciousness into the material and rational world. Concentration and consolidation of power was a major driving force to take down any potential thread. Beside of wise women (denounced as witches) the Temples where massacred too.

[@mellie4174]

Amazing episode!

[@ppfuchs]

I enjoyed the video! This may be similar to how in more recent times the Catholic Church, or at least elements of it , have imagined a vast, organized Masonic Conspiracy, when in fact actually real-life Masons actually have trouble organizing whether to have ham sandwiches or turkey sandwiches for dinner, as a well known Mason has quipped.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Good point!

[@kellybarclay32]

Fascinating! The argument that the Cathars didn’t exist is new to me. Thank you for sharing this. I will have to explore more.

[@tonydunne562]

I had never heard of the Cathars before Wednesday. I've gone from excitement at planning to hike the Cathar trail, being intrigued by their existence, philosphy and massacre to now - two days later - hearing that they may not have existed at all - it's been an emotional rollercoaster! So pleased I saw your video before reading and believing everything I read about the area and the Cathars. I can now approach it with a more open mind - Thank you.

[@MegaJackpinesavage]

"Just because it's said doesn't make it so." I look forward to further viewing of your very interesting video channel, Dr Sledge --- thank you.

[@therealzilch]

Fascinating and a great complement to Filip's equally fascinating, and fascinatingly different video. Luckily, being an atheist, I needn't subscribe to any sort of dualism and express a preference. Thanks to both of you. Lunch is on me if you're ever in town. Cheers from cloudy Vienna, Scott

[@davj1481]

This is a superb evaluation

[@bagsogee]

Congratulations to you and LTR's on your excellent videos. I would also reccomend Melvyn Bragg's BBC's Radio 4"s In Our Time episode on this topic which you can listen to on KZbin. If l remember correctly they go into the popular unrest/ unease in the region at the church's ruling that the sacrament of communion was so pure that the priest giving the sacrament didn't have to be that pure themselves. I find the sceptic's arguement compelling because any "evidence" that has been gathered through torture is worthless as many contemporary miscarriages of justice have proven.

[@justinbirkholz7814]

Absolutely fascinating! I'll have to go read more about this skeptical position. It certainly seems plausible.

[@guillermoibanezgomez3031]

I was waiting for this episode.

[@Shwettyapple]

Elegant scholarship, thank you!

[@maelstrom2594]

Very interesting, I've always believed that within Christianity there must always have been those individuals who thought outside the box and I certainly see how the authorities of the time might lump everyone into a single group and scoop up many innocents in the net. An intriguing topic for thought and discussion. I'll certainly be on the lookout for more of the same. You, Sir, have earned a new subscriber.

[@rayhill5767]

From the very beginning of Christianity there were schisms. All the heretical things you can think of were conceptualized and debated during the Roman era. The myth is that at one point there was one true church. That was never Never the case.

[@m.scottmcgahan9900]

Have you read The Yellow Cross: The Story of the Last Cathars 1290-1329? It is mostly an analysis of the day-to-day activities of a group of people identified as Cathars by the Inquisition. It barely goes into any of the beliefs that supposedly made them heretics, but focused on the way they lived and documented movements and meetings of the people involved.

[@JM-qi5dm]

Always great!

[@ninetales6485]

Catharism is one of my favorite subjects! Were they or were they not a real group is a question I have wondered about for years. I would like them to have existed but by no means does that have any authority as to whether or not they existed. I find this question raised as interesting as I do their theology. Thank you you've made my day and I really needed this!

[@jdewit8148]

Catholicism was looking for a scapegoat to put fear of in the community, thereby tightening it's control. Much like covid Vax passports do today.

[@mrpoop123]

They definitely existed....don't even know why this is being discussed

[@SwordTune]

@@mrpoop123 I don't doubt that there may have been a few of them, the question is the scale and whether or not their beliefs were really what the chroniclers wrote down.

[@mrpoop123]

@@SwordTune i actually have the notion they may be connected to illuminati. They were connected to the templars who were the skull and bones

[@brothersnorthwest3400]

Great stuff!!

[@susanscott8653]

So fascinating! When you said the Inquisition were asking leading and loaded questions? I immediately thought of the witch hunts.

[@TheMoeShun]

wow, i love this channel soooooooo much!

[@WhoeverNevermind]

Thanks for the video

[@yichengyi]

Awesome presentation! I wonder how much of the Albigensian gnostic tradition was expressed in troubadour culture such as amour courtois and Arthurian legend. Thank you immensely for the book recommendations!

[@pilgrimm23]

Magister domine: gratia tibi ago. I am 70. (I'm the guy who asked you about Thorndike). Back over 50 years ago I studied medieval history in college. Fascinating. I came to similar conclusions then but dared not speak my mind in lectures. the Carthars, Albegencians and such interested me and I haunted the stacks of my local university library; looking for texts. Unfortunately it was a bit brief in documents I was looking for... (Univ of New Mexico). sigh. Your discussion is refreshing. Would that I had taken your class.. I tip my hat sir.

[@beth7935]

Mind. Blown. I know too little about this history to even say what view I favour, but the sceptical view sounds well worth considering. I know a bit about the witch trials tho, & I see the similarities, so I know evil/heretical groups _can_ be invented. And I agree; emotion plays a huge role in what we believe & how we react to evidence- I'm into the Wars of the Roses, & ofc people get SUPER-emotional about that!... Brilliant & fascinating vid!

[@Erel0]

My family comes from a village a few miles form Montségur. I've been spoon fed "Catharism" since childhood. It's obvious to me that the inquisition basically invented conspiracy theory, and I tend to take everything cathar with a grain of salt. Not that I doubt that there was a real religious phenomena at the other side of the filter. Anyway I mostly enjoy reading the texts (Liber de duobus prinipiis, Interrogatio Johannis).

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

I'll be getting to those texts as well. Honestly, that's one of the places I find the skeptical argument weak: explaining these texts. Of course, neither is produced in Languedoc and I haven't seen any evidence that dissidents even knew about them them. But, for a reaction formation, de duobus prinipiis is very sophisticated.

[@Erel0]

@@TheEsotericaChannel Obviously someone wrote or imported, or translated... and read those texts. So there were Cathars. The fact that most of what we know of them come from the inquisition makes it difficult to really know who they where. Not to mentions the modern folklore and busyness around them.... I like the way Jung in Aion includes them in a broader "holy ghost movement" that happened in all Europe at the time. It may just have been the local manifestation of a broader movement, and this movement itself was what was perceived a the Great Heresy.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

@@Erel0 I'm not quite convinced - clearly there were dissidents and some of those dissidents later showed evidence of dualism. I tend to think this was an evolutionary process rather than the traditionalist position of a 'counter-church.' Looking forward to continuing grappling with this material, for sure!

[@Erel0]

@@TheEsotericaChannel I agree. My point is just that the inquisition filter makes things murky. In fact I was not really making a point, just mentioning one or two thoughts in passing. The comment section is not a good place to have an in depth discussion. And my English is probably not good enough for that, I often lack the skill to express nuances. I'll be looking forward to your work on those text. And speaking of Jung and his "holy spirit movement", for one on Joachim of Fiore too!

[@theStormWeaver]

@@TheEsotericaChannel The "counter-church" part is the thing I find the least likely about the traditional narrative, but the idea of a (locally) "widespread" movement isn't at all hard to swallow.

[@DarkMoonDroid]

As much as I love the idea of The Cathars, I've seen elements of what they're describing in practice today in the way the two main political parties in the U.S. are manufactured as well as other social "tribes". The stereotypes are mostly just that. It benefits the ruling class for people to believe that these organized, dogmatic clubs exist so that we will turn on each other and be more easily conquered. However, we should ask ourselves if we can use the same logic to erase organized groups that we do know exist. Also, we should ask if this method has been or will be used to erase things like The Holocaust. All I'm saying is lets keep our eyes open about whether or not such _deletions_ will benefit a questionable group in a similar way as whether the _existence_ of a group or event will benefit a questionable group.

[@haleya18]

Great episode! Hearing about witch hunters always makes me think of Good Omens now. :D

[@wrenangles5455]

Great stuff as always. I went deep down a Cathar rabbit hole several years ago. I cant remember the name of this book, but the best book I remember reading proposed that the Cathars were either invented or being funded by the Count of Toulouse because of the frustration with the Catholic Church constantly asking for more money. This book also claimed a number of the named Cathars in the records were also members of noble families.

[@mrpoop123]

I'm trying to find a certain book myself telling that the cathars are tied to the illuminati. I can't find it i thought it was by Mark pino or pinar or something. Also im truly starting to see that everything both sides are controlled by the same entity and I know 100% what this entity is.

[@NK6only]

I would love to know the name of that book if you happen to recall the name

[@2602ops]

Happy you talk about the Cathars.

[@tinawalker8174]

Fabulous video.

[@zbeer570]

Loved the video! Random Request- Could you do a video on Goral HaGra? Would love to hear about it from a more academic and less mythologized perspective.

[@MrLex86]

My wife is currently working on a doctoral thesis in Heresy studies. :D

[@_GOD_HAND_]

Remind her that the milk should be frothed in a cappuccino, but not in a latte. That will be important for her future career.

[@haleya18]

I need a do-over, so I can pursue this field of scholarship. :D

[@MrLex86]

@@haleya18 It's never too late. There's people in her study group in their 50-60's.

[@laurie8090]

This is fascinating to me because I majored in Medieval history and had a great interest in the heresies. It's been awhile since I read anything and had no idea heresy scepticism was a thing. I am very interested to see what the sceptics have to say. I think it's an important debate because history is not an exact science and when new evidence is discovered you have to be open to changes in perspective.

[@saidthemute3278]

Do the Skeptics draw any parallels to the heresy charges against the Knights Templar? I may have misheard, but it sounds like "Cathars" first get named in sources around the time of the disbandment - the Templar heresies seem like a more blatant fabrication, but maybe that's simply because their secular opponents lacked the ecclesiastic training to (intentionally or otherwise) invent coherent beliefs/practices... (And on that note, I'd kind of feel bad for esotericists/occultists if they lost both the Cathars and Templars...)

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Not to my knowledge but this is a good point - the templars were murdered to avoid paying a debt to them

[@sieltan5618]

can't wait for the episode on the book of two principles, i've been struggling to find sources on its origins

[@feloniousbutterfly]

The sad truth is that countless groups and cultures were utterly stamped out by religious extremists and those in power throughout history, and their true beliefs, traditions and history were almost entirely erased -- on purpose. So, what little glimpse we have of those groups speak loudly to us in the modern age, even if they may or may not have even existed at all. The truth is about the Cathars, their existence will forever be debated henceforth, just as the existence of Jesus among scholars. Nonetheless, the Cathar's story, true or not, is reflective of the experiences of countless peoples and cultures, especially to the descendants of the few survivors of similar massacres and genocides.

[@daddyleon]

I feel silly that it didn't occur to me that the bulk of the information was from the hands of those in the inquisition. In Chandler's voice: "Could there *be* a more biased viewpoint?" I would've loved there to be Cathars, a religious and medieval parallel to Asterix & Obelix with a very interesting, unique, coherent (and, to me, more reasonable) theological basis.

[@MarquisSmith]

Anyone would think history had an agenda. Great video as ever, Dr Sledge.

[@ericwoodard7095]

People actually take the time to give this thumbs down sometimes? Okay didn't think this was necessary but thank you Dr Sledge I appreciate your videos.

[@richardlilley6274]

Oddly I remember subscribing as watched a few of your uploads... Seems YT unsubscribed me... Just corrected that error Thank you for sharing your knowledge and investigations

[@colinslant]

"Do Cathars exist? Who cares? Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out..." - the Catholic Church. Real movement or not, there were real people who were really tortured and murdered. May they rest in peace.

[@steelfloor10]

It was a landgrab between the pope in Italy and the king of France at the time

[@complimentary_voucher]

Yeah I suspect there is a lot of truth in this, especially when you consider the cultural enmities that definitely existed and conform to a suspicious degree with 'Catharism'.

[@longcastle4863]

Fascinating theory.

[@ericsmith1801]

You mentioned Eckhart Schönau who talked about Manicheans in Cologne. Cologne was the place were the route of the migration of Cathars turned South toward France. The Gnostics originally migrated from Turkey, through the Balkans, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Bosnia, then made it to Cologne. There is a medieval church in Cologne that has the gnostic/cathar symbol at the top of its steeple. I don't remember what it is exactly but it is gnostic for sure. The documentary I watched about Cologne, Germany was not a gnostic influence show. Various books also mention Cologne as a place were Gnostic religion is known to have existed.

[@guz9923]

Thanks for this comment. In my 20 years (before knowing about the Cathars) I have been to Cologne, Macedonia and Bosnia.(also Turkey but thats more a common destination for holiday) I also have roots in Alkmaar which is the City where the Dutch ketters (based on cathar word) defeated the Catholic Hispanics. I was led on this path by Marcel Messing, recommend looking him up :) Also had dreams of the garden of earthly delights by Dutch painter Bosch and I later found out he also was interested in the Cathars and read many things about Bosnia. Warm greetings

[@Soldierinthegarden]

This guy will have a million subs soon,keep up the fire bro,an old infantry modo too,😁

[@DonovanWert]

Thanks brother 🙏

[@Iknowknow112]

This sounds similar to the points that Michael Williams makes in re to the term “Gnostic” when talking about early Christians. If that’s the case my response is- Fair enough! Also this video brings up a lot of references to mind ; “ The Price of Monotheism” by Assmann and “The Wretched of the Earth” with the idea of oppressed people taking their self-definition from their oppressors. Thanks for the video.

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Yep I mentioned Williams in the episode!

[@Iknowknow112]

@@TheEsotericaChannel I saw that but I wrote before I finished hearing the entire video. "Great minds think alike"😎

[@almosrogacs8956]

I love Gnosticism and I love this video!

[@ludonymous526]

Good luck, then.

[@4kassis]

Brilliant!

[@larrybuzbee7344]

Heresy Studies? Count me in! I have a lifetime of practical experience, so can I get equivalency credits? It would be doubly awesome if it were offered in Hereshey, Pa. I have no dog in the big fight, but it's fun to watch. May the fewest invisible entities win.

[@KarlWitsman]

Wow! What a wild ride. Do the Cathars exist? Dr. Sledge: "Hold my grail and watch this...."

[@ludonymous526]

That Crusade is easily one of the most gruesome periods of the Middle Ages. Good thing the Church has calmed down significantly compared to what it was back then.

[@Parmandur]

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle: there wasn't a well organized religous institution with links to ancient movements, but there were some folks with odd ideas they came up with running around. More David Koresh or Jim Jones, rather than Dan Brown.

[@razvananghel7492]

You do indeed gotta have balls questioning the existence of Chatars. Thank you professor. Ill check your sources

[@sketchportraitstudio6368]

Interesting new views on these events. Maybe more tangible ones will emerge as we get to see the "new evidence" that scholars are relying on for these hypothesis.

[@dontchewglass]

Dr. Sledge, I feel like you may be interested in the book Occult Features of Anarchism, it explores the role of esotericism/occultism in the development of anti-State and anti-capitalist intellectual movements through influences such as Hegel and Spinoza, as well as in the development of conspiracies, with a distinction between the conspiracy of kings and conspiracies of peoples

[@halszkat8764]

Great video, encouraging of critical thought. Although, I'm left undecided. I agree that we must consider the potential danger in which a history is based on nothing more than the inquisitions records, after all so often we are told that history is written by the victors. However, precisely that brings me to thinking about the minority groups, movements, philosophical and spiritual ideas that were perhaps too unique, too small to ever gather a mass momentum, even on a local scale. Therefore, I think it's also important to acknowledge that it's just as possible that an idea does not make it into any historical records, because it was an idea that was truly underground.

[@corticallarvae]

I’m so glad I took Latin for years it helps immensely.