F-16C Viper vs JF-17 Thunder: BVR Battle & Dogfight | DCS

We battle the US Multi-role F-16C Block 50 Viper against the Chinese/Pakistan JF-17 Thunder Block 1 over Cyprus.
PATREON: / grimreapers
0:00 Overview & Predictions
1:44 Battle 1 - JF-17
6:41 Battle 2 - F-16C
16:14 Battle 3 - Spectator
19:28 Battle 4 - JF-17
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THANK YOU TO: Mission Makers, Admin, Staff, Helpers, Donators & Viewers(without which, this could not happen) xx
#GRDogfight #DCSDogfight #F16C #JF17 #GR #DCSWorld #DCS #Dogfight #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators

[@neilaslayer]

The JF-17 is the Harbor Freight version of a fighter.

[@aland7236]

Maybe good for one use?

[@mfreed40k]

That's very accurate!

[@dexlab7539]

LOL but at least it came with a 10% off coupon 😂

[@connarcomstock161]

Wish version of a fighter

[@stevenlarratt3638]

My microwave shouts at me more than the RWR saying missle on the Jeff...

[@dexlab7539]

The Jeff yells at you after it explodes 😂

[@j4s0n39]

You guys left your fueling probes out on the Jeffs. 😁

[@dexlab7539]

Cap is proud of his ‘probe’ and keeps it exposed

[@niftyoguy]

Need Jf-17 Block-III vs F-16

[@grimreapers]

Agreed

[@MuhammadAli-255]

3:50. You have fuel prob attached. It creates a ton of drag and won't let you go past Mack 1.

[@DerekWilsonProgrammer]

All the photos of the JF-17, armed for CAP, have just two SD-10, one on each wing. If you know you're going against an F-16, you'd probably do the same. If you have 4 missiles, and you have two targets, it makes sense to fire another one, instead of waiting for the first missile to fail. You probably want to push them to go cold.

[@Anarchy_420]

NGAD VS -- First grids, ST-21's with AIM-152 GDW's, and HAVE GLASS F-16's! Second grids, F-15EX's, and YF-23's! Last grid, YF-12A's with AIM-260's, B-1R's, and Chrome F-22's!🙏👍

[@NCCountryLiving]

Lol "For social credit score I would say the JF17" This gave me a good laugh!

[@TK199999]

FYI, the JF-17 uses a single Klimov RD-33/RD-93 engine, the same engine as the MiG-29. But the engine appears to be meant to be used in pairs and not as single power plant. It supposedly has cruise speed of MACH 1.1 and top speed of MACH 1.6-1.8. But its unknown if that is level flight or in a dive, at the same time DCS glitches a lot especially after updates like the recent 2.9 patch. So it maybe a bug that the JF-17 can't break MACH 1 and probably the same with the JF-17 radar, especially in multiplayer which has its own bugs.

[@creepy_3031]

I’ve always had that issue in the JF, breaking Mach 1 hasn’t been possible for a long time now, but you used to be able to do that

[@greybuckleton]

Its nothing to do with being used in pairs. The JF17 does have a lower top speed, rate of climb and thrust to weight ration than Mig29. Its just not a great performer. As for not breaking Mach 1, its a mod this is probably not true but it must be said that Cap didn't know how to put the engine in war emergency power and almost certainly didn't know any of the correct speeds and climb profiles for the airframe. With respect, he didn't fly it well.

[@Mirpurmad]

not exactly same but modified as a single engine use.

[@rmp5s]

I love the "missooo, missooo, missooo" warning...lol

[@BEANLORD6-9]

Whoever is making these modern equipment mods bravo.

[@CMDRSweeper]

"We can hear the comms, but they can't hear US" The fact that Cap includes us rather than me when saying it speaks why this channel's content has grown, he genuinely wants us to be the valued viewer sitting next to him watching and listening... We aren't much of a talker though... Fortunately or unfortunately pending on how you view it.

[@UkDave3856]

The JF is obviously inferior to the Viper, but it’s still a good module on DCS and worth owning. I really enjoy flying it and the stand off glide bombs are great. The big drawback is the lack of hard points for extra bags which really limits its range

[@rego007]

Hey, Cap! We've seen you and a few of the others in your videos. Any chance of us getting to see the regulars we haven't seen before like Simba and Grump? It'd be nice to put faces with the names. Keep up the awesome work!

[@joe.81]

Probably not, Simba is most likely legit USAF and Grump barely plays anymore.

[@grimreapers]

Not allowed to show Simba as he's frontline USAF. Here is some of the guys form last month: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqSQYpuEbpyrd9U

[@joe.81]

What a shock, the F-16 who is also awesome in a F-22 is USAF? Duh

[@joe.81]

I doubt Simba is Frontline but very likely high level training, anyone else notice how he disappeared at the same time the F-16's to Ukraine happened?

[@R3dd_1247]

​@@joe.81GR literally just commented above you saying that he's Frontline USAF

[@thefatefulforce8887]

" ... and demonetised" hahaha classic GR!

[@connarcomstock161]

>The gun *FEED ME!*

[@anoobnoduhgaming9416]

You did the carrier strike group videos a lot but I never see a video where the American or nato carrier group strikes first with like harpoons or LRASMS

[@Tyrael112]

I was hoping to see a 3v2 to see what the F-16 can overcome. When a match goes so lop-sided it's time to use that 5th pilot!

[@Gha2020]

Do a j10c vs f16

[@timbaskett6299]

I was thinking the same thing!!

[@grimreapers]

OK

[@Gha2020]

@@grimreapers thanks

[@viktorthebird6115]

There has been some changes to the SD-10 dtc loadint on the JF17. Please address that asap... im confused 😂

[@mfreed40k]

Love the fighter duels! Pilot skill alone would have won this fight, but add in those anemic JF engines and its over.

[@Alteram]

The radar difference was a bit surprising, but the missles were lacking. Also even with the F16's having the awacs radar issue every round they still won lol.

[@shaunholt]

Have you done/can you do a British Queen Elizabeth carrier/fleet vs a French Charles De Gaulle?

[@Doom61681]

HEY CAP. Can you talk about the Gremyashchiy class corvette.

[@wilsonrawlin8547]

Just a comment. IMO the JF-17 looks like a cross between the F16 and FA18.

[@daszieher]

Throw in a bit F-5

[@masterbaiter338]

@@daszieherthreesome 😂

[@venome447]

It's more like F-20. Also, in mid 80's Grumman Aerospace (Now Northrop Grumman) was partner with Pak & China in the design phase. Maybe it's where the final design was derived (though no official confirmation)

[@wilsonrawlin8547]

@@venome447 Def agree with that.

[@user-ho1fg8xm3i]

I have been tempted to get the JF , I am far from the best DCS pilot , and this has convinced me to not waste my money. Great work people.

[@TheCommissarIsDead]

Wish I learned that myself😂😭 misewell just buy the f16 at this point,I think it’s the best fighter in dcs

[@pteronoid]

if you are only into a2a, then yeah. but if you like a2g, i would advise to give it a chance. in one flight you could destroy 32 tanks with well placed BRM-1s (1 missile per tank lased to the rear), TPOD on the centerline and 2 bags on the inner wing pylons and you have fuel for enough flybys to kill them all, unless the platoon is 500km away XD i own both, plus F-18, and i fly mostly JF for a2g.

[@stuartholden2772]

I've got admit, this would be a very interesting Dogfight, battlefield situation in real life!

[@readhistory2023]

Can you use AGM-88 HARM against aircraft? I know they're designed for ground targets but it seems like you should be able to use them against aircraft painting you with their radar.

[@msytdc1577]

In reality, probably, in DCS I would be extremely surprised, I doubt that actual radar homing is implemented, but someone else more knowledgeable would be needed for a more concrete answer.

[@avi8aviate]

There was a friendly fire incident where an F-4G mistook a B-52G's tail gun as an Iraqi AAA site. The B-52G survived the resulting HARM impact with damage to the tail and no casualties, and was renamed "In HARM's Way" after the incident.

[@kikakuvr4198]

I did briefly look into this in DCS, the way the HARM is modeled in dcs it only "sees" certain types of radars (ground/ship) a2a radars are of a different type...if the goal is curiosity and you don't mind breaking IC, it may be possible to lie to the missile and insert an a2a radar into the list of "seen" g2a radars by editing some of hts/had (in the f16) lua files or some of the game definition lua files

[@IRONIC1688]

Fear the SD10. Did you know that the PL8 is based on the Israeli Python 3? I always put my chips with the Viper.

[@ofir123456789o]

It is, but in this video, they used the PL-5B, which is based on the AIM-9J

[@alanmike6883]

Got some iron eagle feels there cap 😅 Don't know if it's possible but is it possible to custom the Two missions From the first Two movie's 😊👍

[@jayanpatel7529]

can you please do tejas vs f-16?

[@silversurfer66_]

Can anyone help IAM having a authorization fail 403 and its stop me from using my download after a recent update DCS 2.9

[@davegoodridge8352]

If it could be done. Could you put modern radars and weapons on a WW2 fighter. I think it could hold its own against modern fighters. Make believe

[@FarooqxJohri]

do jf17 block 3 its better then block 1 and 2

[@ilejovcevski79]

SD-10's used to be bonkers good! Are you saying they fixed them?

[@grimreapers]

It wasn't a scientific test but felt about same as AIM-120C.

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@grimreapers a, Roger that. Well, one day i'm going to buy the Jeff and test it..... but it's not this day! 😆

[@timbaskett6299]

I think a near equal match would be the "Jeff" and a legacy Hornet. A JF-17 might be a real threat to an F-104!!! 😄

[@O-oo3uu]

dumb biased muricnut

[@kikakuvr4198]

SD10 performance used to dominate the 120C and would never stay nerfed...is probably why it was banned in satal...also why awacs? Wouldn't fighter only radar and p2p sharing be a better reflection of a jet's strengths?

[@jorehir]

Well, the F-16 is whopping 50% more powerful, with comparable empty weight. Still interesting to see how such different planes compare.

[@bpop2148]

Ah yes, uploaded 1 minute ago

[@bearcatracing007]

Feed Mr Super Cap

[@jmtpolitico80]

Hey CAP! So I was wondering if you could do some kind of Campaign or Video that has IRAN & ANYONE ELSE YOU MIGHT THINK WOULD GET INVOLVED vs U.S., U.K., Israel, and NATO Basically... I know you just did the Iran Small Boat Video, but I want to see a good amount of Land Based with a Carrier Strike Group of NATO's in the Support Roll. Especially the F-15EX, Newest Variant of the F-16 Falcon, and the Newest Variant of the A-10. And if you can make the Carrier Strike Group a F-35 Lightning ll Newest Variant. That would be a great Campaign or Video either way you do it. That way we get a insight o9n what can and probably will happen in this Israel Conflict that has started. They are already firing Missiles and Drones that the USS Carney had to take down with SM-2's.

[@hughmungus2760]

im pretty certain the current JF17s in Pakistani service can use PL15s now

[@venome447]

They've claimed through OSINT's but nothing officially yet. The recent pics of Block 3 that r released, were either clean config or had SD-10's + PL-5's A pic of Prototype was released back in 2019/2020 of a Block3 Prototype carrying PL-10 on wingtips There are also various claims surfaced in Q4 2023 about JF-17 Block 3 either getting a RD-93MA version that has 5000 lbf more thrust than Base RD-93, which makes total max thrust up to 106kN or a WS-13E with 100kN or a WS-13-IPE with a 106-107kN While Earlier in 2021,there was an official saying that Block3 will use the same 84kN RD-93. So long as a 11 ton (107kN) engine doesn't make its way into the JF-17 Fuselage, there's fat chance of integrating PL-15's. That missile is damn heavy for a 84kN RD-93 to carry

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

Could you simulate a potential invasion of Taiwan 🇹🇼 . I believe that Taiwan would use its ships as air defence near an important target, well-being under protection of a nasams battery. The only thing the Taiwanese have to do is stop the Chinese from getting a significant amount of troops on their island while dealing a lot of damage to the Chinese army and navy and also denying the Chinese air force air supremacy , not air superiority, air supremacy, they are two different things. In summary, the Taiwanese just have two damage the landing ships or sink them, to stop them from getting a large amount of soldiers into Taiwan, while denying the enemy 24 hour, control of the skies. Anyway, have a good one😊.

[@weaponizedace3231]

that would be fun

[@badwolftx2139]

The main island is invasion proof at the moment because it's just too valuable to take a chance on damaging. Everyone from all "sides" needs the chips that TSMC makes. The political tripwire for Taiwan is Kinmen County. It's just 5km from the mainland.

[@henrikfabricius761]

Just so you know: BUSTER is according to NATO Joint Brewity Words Publication APP-7(E) (NATO UNCL) "Full Military Power", not "Full After Burner". GATE is "Full After Burner". It just seem that you are using BUSTER in stead of GATE during this video.

[@TheHoneyThief]

F16's radar is a bit pants. Never could get along with it.

[@PolarBearSeal]

You guys aren't good at flying the Jeff. If I were in a 4-ship JF vs 4 Vipers, I'd go clean with only 2 SD-10s for the whole flight. That almost nullifies the Viper's kinematics advantage, and you don't need more missiles as a competent JF pilot. The fact that you can't get above mach 0.8-ish without tanks shows that you have no idea how to fly this plane. I can get that fast with three tanks! Also, lose the AAR probe (seriously). For anyone who wants to run their mouth on this comment, hit me up and we'll duel it out in a public server.

[@alanmike6883]

Cap I think it should be a unwritten rule that when the f 16 is picked that everyone should hum iron eagles road of the gipsy 😊

[@muhammadusmantawab3258]

Why didn't you use JF 17 Block 3 vs F 16

[@muhammadusmantawab3258]

Also why not PL 15 missiles?

[@92HazelMocha]

These are the core game aircraft, not fan made planes. It's why GR doesn't know how to fly it properly lol

[@trev8591]

As I need to increase my Social Credit Score because of watching GR, the only reason JFs lost is poor pilots. Long Live whoever the person is!

[@alanmike6883]

We all will 😅

[@Doom61681]

HEY CAP. Let’s talk about 6TH-GEN fighter jets like the Mikoyan MiG-41

[@grimreapers]

Just googled it, that looks kinda cool.

[@dexlab7539]

Omg Mach 4.3!?

[@Synoopy2]

I have tried to like the F-16 but It is not for me. It flies awkward and bouncy when I try to change directions or go up or down in altitude. Cartoon like. I am sure the real aircraft dosn't steer like that - somethings off. I love the Jeff though.

[@mfreed40k]

The F-16 was designed to be unstable. I'm not sure how you see it as bouncy unless you're used to flying a brick like the JF. Most likely you're over inputting. To be fair, when I try an fly other jets besides the F-16, I tend to I rip the wings off or fly into the ground.

[@mfreed40k]

Oh yeah, and I was talking to some F-16 pilots earlier this spring. They told me it's very easy to fly, very easy to land, and will give you everything it's got and beg for more in a dog fight.

[@IRONIC1688]

It becomes a reflex, very reactive, you need to tone down your input in the DCS Viper.

[@yumdoot007]

jf missiles seems very weak compared to aim 120.

[@Falcon_Verse]

n.oo.b..... You dont stay high after firing the missile.... smh

[@Falcon_Verse]

You are staying high and when the enemies missile get pitbull on you at 40k ... now you wanna start your decend...???????

[@dominickkm5125]

This fight would of been a lot closer if 2 things where done. One the jf17 cap load out should have the jammer pod as it gives the ability to jam and shoot and also give range information of radar sources. (But I can understand why it doesn't have it in this fight). Second was the sd10 was set up wrong as I doubt anyone put the target size to small what makes the missile go pitbull at a closer distance giving less time to defend. Combat engin probably should of been used in Jeff 2 but it doesn't do too much anyway. Would this change the outcome... Probably not but the jf17 would be a much bigger threat if people knew the plane better. F16 just kinematics are too good 😊

[@92HazelMocha]

Definitely changes the outcome. Setting the target size to small means the F16 can't evade the SD10, within about 30-35mn with a lofted shot that's generally fatal. By not lofting and leaving the target size on medium, the SD10 has far less energy and goes active much earlier giving any competent pilot time to get out of the way. On average the SD10 in DCS performs about 5-10% better than the Aim120C5 across the board and the radar in the JF17 is about 15-20% more powerful. There's no reason to lose to an F16C in BVR aside from incompetence.

[@OjitosArt]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm afraid that the BVR you do using the JF-17 is done incorrectly. There are quite a few mistakes, among them and the most important being not giving Loft to the SD-10. I have done kills from 40 miles away to F-16s because they trust themselves and go up to Angeles 40. Another serious mistake was launching the missile from Angeles 40 and not lowering altitude, that is something quite basic and I was surprised that you didn't do it , because after launching your missile, being at that altitude will only make it easier to shoot you down. There are some more like when he threw the PL-5 that probably did not activate the seeker enslaved to the radar or directly use the SD-10 in dogfight (which rotate like a 9X) and some others that I am not going to mention either. But I consider that the BVR was not fair and does not represent 100% of the capacity of the Jeff

[@TK199999]

Like I mentioned above it may also be the plane is buggy in multiplayer due to recent patch. But you are right its also probably they just don't know how to use the JF-17.

[@92HazelMocha]

Also with the SD10 target size set to medium lol. These guys just don't know how to fly the plane.

[@Mirpurmad]

F-16 is better in every aspect. JF-17 needs a lot of luck to win.

[@venome447]

It still has the capacity to attain 1:1 kill ratio against F-16 in BVR If you talk about DCS, you maybe right in saying it has less Chance of Survival than the Viper But if you talk about the real life, don't forget that the primary Airforce that Flies the Jeff, has over 4 decades of experience with the Viper as well. Including Combat Experience. Since they know well enough where Jeff will fall weak, they'll always play on its strengths against the Viper's weaknesses (something, the enemy Viper pilot has no idea).This is one of the reasons that despite getting Tech Transfer offers from Lockheed, Indians remain reluctant to procure "India Specific Viper, called The F-21". The talk among Professional circles of IAF is that Viper Induction is less useful for them for the reasons, I mentioned above. Not saying they fear JF-17, the fear is that because of such a long experience, Indian Vipers would be vulnerable to each & every PAF Jet (incl Vintage F-7's & Mirage-III's), no matter how advanced those Vipers are

[@FarooqxJohri]

for ur kind information he is using jf17 thunder block 1 and if he uses the block the latest jet then it will be a fair fight

[@Mirpurmad]

@@FarooqxJohri thankyou for your kind information. I like to point out that the Jets never operate in isolation, they are part of a network and support from ground, air and space. that aside Bock 3 might survive against the block 15 MLU but block 50 and latest Viper blocks are way to ahead in trust to weight ratio, climb, weapon payload and avionics. JF-17 Block 3 is fine but lets not boast like Indians and declare it Rapotor/ viper killer like Indians claim Tejas to be some mythic jet that cand defeat titans, UFOs. 5th 6th generation jets etc

[@MikeN-cs8qe]

I liked my own comment.

[@aland7236]

I liked your comment.

[@ivorharden]

​@@aland7236I liked your comment

[@SrpskoNightmare]

I’ll like your comment if you’ll like mine 😉

[@MikeN-cs8qe]

@@SrpskoNightmare done!

[@Sidekick_Snowman]

Oh yeah!? Well I like your comment AND my comment!

[@dexlab7539]

I disliked my own comment

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

The guy literally got nine likes by saying I liked my own comment Why? Just why??

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

Exactly

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

At least I have a solid point and I didn’t get 20 likes in six hours, until now, I have only got 3 likes

[@Darkthorianshowgame]

Cap being bad again doesnt know anything about jf17 fuel probe is out wich you can remove to remove dragg. Engine should have been in combat mode and with a correct climb profile the jf17 easily gets above mach 1 and can get you up fully loaded to mach 1.3 at 30k feet. But cap and his team did 0 research and made this vid to make jf look bad and to promote their favorite toy.

[@ddddddddd574]

Could Dark stop doing voice fry in the videos lately please??? It only sounds good to the person doing it but its unbearable and cringe to anyone else who has to listen to it. Otherwise, great content.

[@cassius_eu5970]

No offence, but I don't get why Simba feels the need to keep talking about "social credit score" in every video you guys do that involves China. That stuff has long been debunked ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Misconceptions ), so it seems like unnecessary political talk that only spreads misinformation.

[@ztcssb3831]

Because b****es will keep b****ing. Keep doing this only shows how arrogant and uneducated a person is.