Fallout Talk - Did Bethesda RUIN the Brotherhood of Steel?

Did Bethesda ruin the Brotherhood of Steel?
The Fallout series has a long history with their soldiers strapped in large, bulky powered armor. They made their first appearance in the original game spearheading the movement to become one of the most important pieces of Fallout's elements.
They made an appearance in each game, from playing a role of a simple, important faction to playing the central role. Yet, each title, the Brotherhood has proved to be a little different.
Let's take a look at each Fallout games Brotherhood of Steel.
#FalloutTalk #Fallout #Bethesda

[@connorpalm8291]

I actually liked the outcast and concept of a divide in the brotherhood but I think it would’ve made more sense for the outcasts being the ones who are more open and willing to do actual good

[@Foxtrop13]

nope because they will be toasted instantly if the main brootherhood wants their tech and dont care for the common good there is no reason for them to tolerate traitors

[@connorpalm8291]

@@Foxtrop13 true didn’t think about that

[@mrnobody6447]

@@connorpalm8291 that or in some ways make the midwest chapter more canon, they were the first ones to open their ranks to wastelanders due to depleting ranksm

[@TheREALSimagination]

Even though their whole reason for splintering was that they thought *Lyons* was getting altruistic?

[@connorpalm8291]

@@TheREALSimagination I meant like the roles be reversed like have Lyons lead the outcasts

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I think that Bethesda missed a big opportunity to have the player interact with the conflict between the Lyonhood and Outcasts. Both factions have well-explained motivations in the game, so it would have been great to be able to choose between them rather than being forced to get help from the Lyonhood. Also, as this video implies, the Lyonhood should have been the Outcasts.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

The civil war aspect of the Brotherhood is actually very interesting. It's just one of those ideas that Bethesda has that just... Doesn't really go anywhere. Like Kellogg taking over Nick's body for all of 5 seconds.

[@ultra-papasmurf]

@@GamesTwiceOver I've played through fallout4 so many times with Nick as my primary companion for the vast majority of them, didnt even know that happened

[@brysonkuervers2570]

@@ultra-papasmurf Really? Musta been sleepy or something cause immediately after you get done with Doctor Amari and are about to leave “Kellogg” talks to you through Nick for that whole of 5 seconds and then never again 😐

[@zamordomin]

The Lyons chapter ARE outcasts. In a way. The Brotherhood Outcasts are outcasts of the Lyons chapter (outcasts of outcasts) because they are upholding the brotherhood's original vision which is not shared by the rest of the DC Brotherhood. It is really weird that they refer to themselves as outcasts, though, instead of true brotherhood, or Lyons' outcasts, since they're only upholding the Brotherhood's ideals before their chapter decided to play humanitarian.

[@isaacsrandomvideos667]

They made them the “good enclave”

[@JB-xl2jc]

They were the good Enclave before the Enclave was introduced IMO. They were pretty dickish in Fallout 1, insular and fairly isolated and send you on a suicide mission just to get you off their lawn. Killing ONE person in their organization leads to them being the "steel plague" that slaughters people for decades. The only thing that gets them to break their isolation and help the outside world (before the ending) is finding absolute concrete proof that the mutants will attack them specifically and intend to wipe out all of humanity. And of course they were vastly more technologically advanced than the rest of the groups. A lot of Enclave similarities.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

@@JB-xl2jc One way I heard them described was "BoS will let you choke on some food, Enclave would shove the food down your throat."

[@PS_Boom]

@@GamesTwiceOver sounds about right

[@warhawk9566]

except for in fallout 4 when they're basically the enclave but we're supposed to like them this time

[@JB-xl2jc]

@@warhawk9566 eh more like Enclave Lite (definitely don't support them for the faction who would be best for the Commonwealth, but at least they don't consider EVERY wastelander garbage and want to poison them). OTOH, they do fly hundreds of miles to invade the Commonwealth and essentially form a feudalist military junta/dictatorship just because they hate the Institute, so...

[@-CrimsoN-]

I'm honestly so sick of seeing the Brotherhood of Steel at this point. I love how they have a lesser role in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. Kind of hate how they've become the Fallout poster-boy for Bethesda Fallout games.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Oh, I definitely agree they're overused. I just don't feel like they're "ruined." That said, their heavy reliance and shoehorning can put them there. The only reason I haven't classified them that way and did for Super Mutants for being overused, is because at least the Brotherhood has been relevant to their wastelands. However, it's getting harder and harder to look past it.

[@isaacsrandomvideos667]

Yep

[@EmperorAmbrose]

We really need an enclave centered fallout game, where they’re perceived to be the “good guys” for once

[@EmperorAmbrose]

Like maybe you could start out as one and you either follow orders no matter what or desert when you see things that you disagree with {but would still be perfectly reasonable within the story}

[@williamfrenxh8831]

I personally want to see more enclave and NCR, like a look in the past where they fought.

[@mr.gasmask2582]

My main gripe with how Bethesda uses the brotherhood of steel is that they just shoehorn them into games and usually just their popularity as a crutch for poorly written factions or just bad writing as a whole.

[@caseyhall2320]

Yeah, I agree with this. Bethesda has great concept writing, but not great direct story writing.

[@marveyzing1495]

what about new vegas they seemed like what they were in the first 2 games

[@jimguppy7204]

Yeah they're basically like the Daleks in Doctor Who, they show up not for any meangful reason, but because they're apparently supposed to.

[@clangswordsman4968]

@@marveyzing1495 Bethesda was almost entirely uninvolved with New Vegas, Obsidian were the dev's for that one.

[@marveyzing1495]

@@clangswordsman4968 fallout new vegas gameplay is literally riped straight from fallout 3 and published the game but on the story front bethesda didn't touch a thing

[@kiba_the_lucky]

BoS: "We are only after the preservation of technology, to ensure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands" BoS in Fallout 4: "Preserve what now? anyways let's nuke this fuckin science base because we hate these synths"

[@wilekrowan3610]

Science base was in the wrong hands, apparently.

[@Alex-pj8nz]

Nah they took all the data from that terminal before they teleported out and didn’t object the Vault dweller activated to evacuation alarm so that they can round them up later.

[@samuelbishop3316]

It actually does make a fair bit of sense. They see it the same as the FEV and want it gone.

[@noahmiller8042]

even though the synths are a dangerous technology ok.....

[@galanakagalactus903]

Yeah but the Institute are stupid as well. They kill humans and replace them with Synths and unleash Super Mutants on the commonwealth and think they are saving humanity. They even killed an entire vault full of uncontaminated humans when it didn't benefit them in any way to do so.

[@warhawk9566]

Also i feel like one of the mistakes was not actually dealing with the outcasts in any meaningful way in fallout 3. Like being in a civil war while getting invaded by a hostile power is one of the worst positions a faction can be in and it honestly shocks me that Lyons doesn't say, "before we attack the jefferson memorial, we need you to do something about the outcasts, we can't fight the enclave if we're looking over our shoulder the whole time, or if the outcasts decide to attack. I would rather they be brought back into our ranks but if they won't come... do what you must"

[@mudpuppy0205]

Then you go chat with them and you can wipe them out, convince them to join with high charisma or knowledge from Raven Rock, or join them and trick lyons into attacking while the outcasts take the citadel.

[@treefiddy3033]

@@mudpuppy0205 it’s so sad that this kind of basic player agency is completely lacking in what’s supposed to be an RPG game

[@urubissoldat5452]

Well the problem with that is that they still considered eachother brothers just separated from one another

[@mudpuppy0205]

@@urubissoldat5452 I'm sure you could add an option for some outcasts to not participate or maybe you have to convince a certain amount of influential people within the brotherhood to support in the assault (and they bring a portion of the bos with them.) The few you can't convince will just be considered necessary deaths to bring the brotherhood back to it's true mission.

[@wesleykill33]

Not everything needed a resolution immediately, the problem eventually resolved itself. The player character doesn’t need to be involved in every major decision in the wasteland.

[@MickeyLeeBukowski]

I agree, I don't think Bethesda ruined the BoS. I just think they made them too central to the story.

[@Ludovicus1769]

In Fallout 4 you have the option to never even gaze your eyes upon a Brotherhood of Steel soldier, and still finish the Main Quest.

[@Gutvald]

@@Ludovicus1769 They pop after you kill Kellog in all case.

[@Ludovicus1769]

@@Gutvald So? It’s one of the coolest scenes in the whole franchise. And you still don’t have to interact with them at all.

[@dov2mt]

​@@Ludovicus1769 if u play rpgs to have scenes straight out of some shitty action movie then sure. very cool.

[@Ludovicus1769]

@@dov2mt That’s not why I play them, but scenes like that are always cool. I mean don’t you like the opening scene for New Vegas? Oh and if you’re gonna say that you like that scene, but the the scene for the BoS in Fallout 4, then you’re an ignorant hypocrite.

[@mansiselyn]

In Fallout 3 they have missed a lot of opportunities, like seeing more action against the super mutants, because yes, they do mention it, but, I don't see it happening, and there was only one time when it happened, near GNR.

[@finalcam1740]

There's another scripted section in DC somewhere where you help a group of brotherhood clear super mutants and rescue some recruits. Also the constant battle in front of the capitol between super mutants and brotherhood.

[@stephenvargas5806]

There are a few areas were you will see them fighting mutants and raiders but they can be easy to miss. If you got to the White House crater there’s a Brotherhood outpost that’s always fighting super mutants everytime you go there. After broken Steel DLC there’s scripted encounters across the map of mutant and raiders attacking the water convoys. Also if you walk around the Citadel one part of it is always being attacked by mutants or late game enclave.

[@negativezero8174]

You haven't explored DC very much have you? The whole mall is a constant warzone between the brotherhood, slavers and supermutants The library shows a company of Knights purging the building in search of pre war books The White House has an outpost under constant assault by super mutants There's sentry's on gun platforms around the citadel constantly getting shot at What more do you want???

[@mansiselyn]

@@negativezero8174 I want more

[@RomeodaBIackRose]

@@mansiselyn honestly

[@warhawk9566]

Funnily enough, one of the most ambitious parts of fallout new vegas was making the brotherhood one of the MINOR factions. They still exist but they don't play a major role in the plot outside of 1 quest where you're basically just trying to ensure they won't be a problem and their presence is practically non-existant. It gave obsidian a chance to do some world building that didn't require the brotherhood to shape that world.

[@formorian5]

I think it did a good job of exploring where the BoS's inflexible code and isolation would take them. The world is recovering, nations are forming, but they won't budge. They try to keep technology out of the hands of the NCR, and makes an enemy of them.Their technological edge is useless against the sheer numbers the NCR can throw at them. They refuse to adapt, and so they are doomed. And the worst part? They know it. During the companion quest for Veronica, the Elder outright says he know they will die out.

[@zackcook5123]

I personally feel Bethesda didn't ruin the Brotherhood as much as balls up presentation. They recycle ideas without using them well. And the outcast thing as said doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They where too central to 3 in the wrong way. 4 seemed to try xenophobia bit makes them more tolerant if ghouls than lions. They gun down feral ghouls and supermutants due to them both being a risk. Hostility to ghoul's is not unreasonable given its implied ghouls will go feral. Is it wrong yes it is, but understandable. Furthermore the Brotherhoods treatment of synths is understandable given what synths where designed for. Coupled with the institute it's potentially a wise move to use brutal tactics. What is out of character is nuking the Institute as that place contains incredible information, likely including pre war archives, as well as production facilities for weapons and armour.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Nuking MIT is defo weird. If there was a line about that said something like "Destroying the Institute is something we have to do. Yes, it's a shame to lose such a treasure trove of information, I agree, but we do not know the extent of control the Institute has. Think about it, those Courser's are able to teleport inside, who's to say they wouldn't do it while we're picking through the spoils of war and attack our scribes while they're vulnerable? And who's to say they don't have a method of self-destructing the facility remotely, while we're inside it? No, we HAVE to destroy it to keep us safe. We'll just have to learn what we can from synths and any possible surviving technology -- though, I'm sure you can imagine how little that will be." Something like that, basically just hinting that because the Brotherhood knows so little of the Institute's capability, that destroying it is simply safer than risking everything harvesting it.

[@scorchercast8366]

@@GamesTwiceOver that’s more a excuse than a rationalization. Yes they know little about the institute’s full capabilities but at the same time they managed to assault there main headquarters and take it is a matter of an hour or too. Plus if they have anything outside of there head quarters there best way to learn about it and combat it is to just pick apart the complex for data stores and records to they can hunt down and destroy any possible splinter cells and outside bases of operation. Rationally speaking there’s no reason why they’d destroy the complex. It makes sense for the railroad and minuteman since there comparably weak and likely couldn’t realistically capture and hold the institute let alone actually use the available technology. But the brotherhood has the means and they have an inside agent in the form of the sole survivor having you porch one of the institutes scientist to work for them and hack into there data base to steal tons of info. Also given the sole survivor is the farther of the institute leader there effectively living the wet dream of a intelligences division leader. They fight the institute in two battles and win in both occasions in a one sided massacre in there favor with direct access to there enemies data base, a former high ranking member, and someone who works directly under there leader acting as a double agent for them. The brotherhood in 4 are a bit fanatical but there not this stupid as to directly contradict there main mission statement to such a degree. Maxson spared dance if you talk him down and is conically a cyborg, he’s not that inflexible

[@prestonbaker8626]

I think it would be cool like if the brotherhood had you go to different termaninals and download their information for future use

[@klaykid117]

The brotherhood has become very similar to the adeptus mechanicus in 40K especially with that line in New Vegas about how Elijah was considered a weirdo for wanting new technology they seem to have become obsessed with just preserving old technology and disdain research into new technology

[@derrickmiles5240]

Didn't the sole survivor steal the institutes data or something?

[@anotherguy7539]

There is a video where the theme of Brotherhood's arrival at the Commonwealth is changed for metallic monks, and the mood was just different, for a moment, they felt like the original faction

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Atmospheric music for the old titles is 11/10. I wonder if there's a mod to use the entire soundtrack. Would probably change the mood a lot for 4.

[@jacobowens2603]

@@GamesTwiceOver There actually is a mod for that, and it does change the mood a lot, i'd recommend it.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

@@jacobowens2603 Yeah, looked up after I posted it. From what I can tell, though, it has a lot of technical issues. I'd try it but I haven't actually completed my current Fallout 4 run that I use in some of my videos. Like I've beaten it previously, just not in the footage I'm capturing. I try to capture vanilla footage.

[@jacobowens2603]

@@caiorodriguesmonteiro4768 I think its only PC because of sony issues with modding

[@caiorodriguesmonteiro4768]

@@jacobowens2603 hmm strange because I found a mod that chances the ambient sound (rain,level up,etc)but if go back to fo4 I will search for ir

[@samuel10125]

Personally I like that there are people in the BoS who actually care about protecting people.

[@poggies7639]

Sure, so do I but I do think they probably should’ve been the outcast faction rather than the outcast faction being people loyal to the traditions of the BoS

[@hk1371]

@@poggies7639 or that the "Outcast" faction was bigger and maybe the term "Lyonhood" was used for Elder Lyons sect

[@mateoreyes6921]

Like the Enclave

[@demonpride1975]

@@poggies7639 i disagree because if they were the outcasts, there would be no need for a grand entrance in fallout 4 for a reformed brotherhood.

[@ghostboi1413]

@robertothesupermutant830enclave in fallout had a overall better plan than the brotherhood did

[@aeric257]

Fallout NV was my first fallout game, playing 3 and seeing the brotherhood all over the place was really weird.

[@hazimreitz]

Same here dude 🤣🤣🤣 it was not what I expected

[@sleven1160]

Lol I had the exact opposite thing happen to me. Fallout 3 was my first Fallout game, so when I played new Vegas I was walking around wondering where the heck the brotherhood was and why they were letting cosplayers mess everything up

[@hmanvlogs2956]

@@sleven1160 I’m so tired of the brotherhood I really really really hope they’re not in the next game but obviously because they’re lazy as fuck so they’re going to be in there

[@oldylad]

@@sleven1160that was never their job, I played the first 2 first and hated fallout 3 because of the brotherhood and enclave and like all of the worldbuilding, New Vegas was great tho

[@theronnett]

You forgot another moment of xenophobia in Fallout 3 was how the Brotherhood of Steel refused to transport any form of purified water to the Ghouls of the Underworld and how a ghoul conman had to bride the BoS to get water transported to Underworld. I also believe FO76 did a good job in portraying the BoS for it showed the early growing pains the Brotherhood faced right after the war.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Huh. I totally forgotten about the Aqua Cura storyline.I really only did the main questline in Broken Steel when gathering footage. Looking at the dialogue file for Griffon: "The Brotherhood's happy just giving the stuff away, right? Well they drove ME out, claiming "Ghouls don't need fresh water!" Well, big surprise that when I offered to PAY for it, next thing I knew, I was talking to Scribe Bigsley, the guy in charge of the whole shebang Didn't really want to, but on principle I wanted to prove Ghouls are WORTH the cost, so I paid him. Now I'm stuck selling the stuff." Also, this "The Brotherhood doesn't deliver to Underworld, you know. There's shipping expenses and all that. Not to mention sneaking past Super Mutants" Could argue there's no point in delivering Aqua Pura to ghouls because they're fine with irradiated water - it's unnecessary to deliver purified water to them. Especially since Underworld has plumbing. That being said, according to the official guide, they're outright banning giving pura to ghouls. Zero tolerance. Fallout 3 Official Game Guide p.577: "The Brotherhood has a zero tolerance policy against Ghouls receiving Aqua Pura. So Griffon made a deal, and swindled his brethren for a few Caps." And I'm not sure the Lyon's chapter is aware of their plumbing availability or not. Necropolis could die of dehydration if the Vault Dweller took their source of water away. The fact that the Brotherhood *could* be okay with dehydrating Underworld would be telling.

[@theronnett]

@@GamesTwiceOver well you have the Ghouls in the Underworld stating the BoS is hostile to them. This is more evidence to support your claim. I also did a deep dive of BoS lore in FO76 and I have to say that Bethesda writing team did do the BoS right in that game in showing the difficulties and hardships they had to cope with in the first 2 decades after the war and finding hope for a future I'm excited to see what the BoS DLC has to bring. It's supposed to be a small 5 man team expedition from California with only 3 arriving to WV to discover the fate of the original Chapter there. It really seems that the Paladin leading the expedition may be the person who originated the teachings that Eldar Lyons ended up following. But all we have is PTS footage and datamines to go off of at the moment

[@GamesTwiceOver]

To be clear, my dismal of 76 was focused on how the Brotherhood has changed. Like everything things at the time of 76 release, Brotherhood was dead. Wastelanders changed that, but the BoS was still gone. With the WV chapter dead before even Fallout 1's storyline, didn't feel like there was a point to analyzing. But I did acknowledge that it can (and almost certainly will) change. But as of now, they're dead. Good or poor writing aside, I feel they're inconsequential to the BoS of today. Unless the future expansion changes that, of course. Completely possible. Could be worth a video on its own.

[@finalcam1740]

Xenophobe? Ghouls aren't a race of aliens. They are just zombies. Would you really be OK with a walking corpse? I know the devs want you to have sympathy for them but use some logic. Disease ridden, rotten walking corpses who can turn feral any moment. Sorry but their life ended long ago.

[@aendranireho6038]

@@finalcam1740 Xenos (from Greek I believe, might be wrong) means "strangers". Like alien actually. Xenophobic means to fear strangers (most of the time, outsiders to your community). So it works with ghouls.

[@bananielrush8602]

I think they should have just stayed in DC and help develop the wasteland into a proper society.

[@GrandmasterDinnerRoll]

Yeah I hate that FO4 killed off both Elder Lyons and Sarah within ONE year of F03’s timeline, just to justify Maxson’s aggressive takeover and move to the Commonwealth. Stupid af. I know not everyone likes that the Capitol Chapter went soft and sought to help the masses, but I enjoyed the idea of them getting disillusioned with their original ideals in order to help the wasteland instead.

[@hache4329]

Twice: While the BoS is pretty isolated… The Prydwen: *WE ARE THE BROTHERHOOD OF STEEL*

[@GateCaptain]

One thing I don't like about how Bethesda handles the BOS is how they are always one of if not THE strongest faction. My main point of irritation is FO3, a BOS expedition was able to travel across the continent, purge a city, wipe out most of the super mutants in the capital wasteland (it's mention that the place was on the verge of being completely overrun when the BOS arrived); yet they still have the power to fight a costly war against the super mutants, undergo a civil war that caused them to lose the bulk of their original and veteran members, and still have the strength to take on the entirety of the enclave, who have had some 20-30 years to recover their strength without having to deal with invasions, campaigns, or civil wars.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

On one hand, power armor does make up a lot for lower numbers and they have elite training. On the other hand, they're also outfitted with some of weakest power armor in the series. And being outnumbered heavily DOES have an effect. It's wild. I often found myself pondering how a rewrite, while keeping a lot of the core concepts of 3, could work. I wonder if I should make a video about that. Hm... Sounds like it'd be either be something fun or something that gets a lot of dislikes.

[@GateCaptain]

@@GamesTwiceOver As you said, power armor does an excellent job at making numbers redundant. I recall one bit of lore stating how a BOS Elder and a handful of initiates in power armor were able to practically wipe out the Vipers when the tribe was at its height, only resulting in the death of the elder when he removed his helmet and got nicked by a poisoned spear. But there is a difference between fighting tribals armed with axes and spears and fighting super mutants who can rip open power armor with relative ease (even in FO1 the super mutants are able to wipe out the BOS if you wasted enough time), or a numerically equal or superior force with access to deathclaws, vertibirds, and superior weapons/power armor. My main concern isn't that the BOS is powerful, they have always been a powerful faction, it's just that in FO3 and even in the years prior to FO4 they are able to deal with so many crippling conflicts and still don't show any real sign of strain aside from 'we recruit locals to replace our loses'. Meanwhile you have the Mojave chapter who lost one battle and it devested them to such a point that they hid themselves away from the world completely to delay their total annihilation. To simplify my TED talk, Obsidian played the BOS as more of a glass cannon faction, like the enclave. Able to deal a bunch of damage but one or two losses and they are done for, hence their isolationist and non-interventionist policy. Bethesda plays them of as more of an 'OC character, pls do not steal' able to take on impossible odds and repeated defeats without any real lasting effect.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Yeah, I hear you. With 3, I did feel like they were struggling a lot, but you know, by the power of "I'm the protagonist" they pulled through. But Bethesda has the habit of also saying one thing, then showing something else. Like, you can find newspapers articles saying that prior to the nukes getting dropped, there was food riots. However, in that same game, the prewar life shows an almost idealistic family and happy life. Say one thing, show another. 3 feels a lot like that.

[@TheTendermen]

My biggest issue with Fallout 4 BoS, is that they straight up go against their doctrine of preserving and controlling advanced technology by blowing up the Institute (literally no faction has any reason to destroy the Institute), why blow it up when you can take it over, control the resources, use the facilities as a base of operations.

[@magicman3163]

The technology isn’t old enough for their liking

[@undaijoubunii-chan586]

@@magicman3163 plus you could chalk it up to maxson's absolutely blind hatred for everything the institute stands for and have made Calling them abominations of science that "need no research",it could very much be his ego talking though and I kinda like that about him if the characterisation is intended

[@razortheonethelight7303]

Mr. MagicMan has that ever before stopped the brotherhood from wanting tech?

[@undaijoubunii-chan586]

@@razortheonethelight7303 considering maxson's attitude,I have no doubt he just disregards everyone else's opinion on the matter

[@FireAngel-nn8sc]

The Brotherhood has destroyed tech they deem to be dangerous before though. In Fallout 1 they have no problem with you destroying Mariposa and the Cathedral (in fact they were the ones that suggested it), despite the advanced technology inside those sites. In Fallout 2 the only Enclave tech the BoS is interested in are Vertibirds, and again, have no problem with you blowing up the oil rig which contained all other Enclave tech. I think a lot of people take the New Vegas BoS at face value and forget that the Brotherhood is made up of different chapters, each with their own interpretations of the Brotherhood's ideals, the Mojave Chapter has different beliefs of handling technology than the East Coast Chapter.

[@mickey8298]

Ok I think the KZbin recommendation gods just blessed you and I'm not at all disappointed

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Hopefully, I don't have to sacrifice too many brahmin to keep up the graces of the algorithm.

[@daveholland6293]

Ew wojak

[@RedComet31]

I agree 100%

[@CoolSmoovie]

Fallout 4 will always be hilarious to me since the Railroad focuses on saving Robot Slaves instead of the countless actual slaves around the wasteland😂

[@imstuff2499]

Isnt that the minutemen's job?

[@hondshoven8477]

The worst part is that it could've been solved by making all the railroads members synths, explaining why they're so focused on saving synths and adding a self centered edge to their faction (which, if well written, would've added some needed grey morality).

[@CD-pj5qi]

They explained y in fallout 3

[@wastedtime9417]

didn't they say that they focus on helping synths because almost nobody else tries to help them, while there are people helping humans; also gen 3 synths aren't "robot slaves", they have few mechanicle parts but are mostly made out of flesh, they can think just like every normal human.

[@Kvltvrkampf]

@@wastedtime9417 Ah yes the synth made in a lab in a couple of hours with a made up background installed on him is almost like a person

[@Shadowkiller-dq2ju]

I wouldn’t say they ruined BOS manly because of the divide between the West Coast and East Coast chapters and as time goes on different leaders would have different ideologies

[@theshreddedone8322]

True that

[@Demicleas]

Why is there even a east and west coast chapter the U.S. is MASSIVE how they even keep in contact is a mistery to me even the enclave can't seem to keep in contact with there many strongholds across north America.

[@Marcelelias11]

@@Demicleas East Coast Enclave couldn't keep contact with West Coast Enclave because West Coast Enclave was fucking nuked. Please play the games before saying incorrect stuff on the internet.

[@justiceforjoggers2897]

Yes, they've also repeatedly broken their own lore just to keep shoving them in

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

broken their own lore? 3 is explained, NV is just 1 and 2 more or less, and 4 is 3 in the future so what do you mean?

[@MyRedHulk]

@@sephiroaone-of-nine101 I think he's talking about "The Fallout that shall not be named" (No, not Fallout:BOS, Fallout 76) 25 years after the great war, The brotherhood are hanging around fucking rural West Virginia. Makes no goddamn sense.

[@galanakagalactus903]

@@MyRedHulk Well many people don't consider Elder Scrolls Online is canon because of how much it breaks the lore so i assume it's the same for Fallout 76

[@MyRedHulk]

@@galanakagalactus903 Does it? Maybe I just don't know as much about the lore as I thought, but I don't remember running into anything that blatantly contradicts the lore?

[@galanakagalactus903]

​@@MyRedHulk It doesn't bother me personally but i know some fans won't consider it canon. Allot of the inconsistencies are two do with the timeline. Certain buildings and locations appearing that shouldn't exist yet. Characters being name dropped that haven't even been born yet. Also books from the future. Although they did try explain the book thing later by blaming Hermaeus Mora worshipers which is kinda cool. It's nowhere near as bad as Fallout 76 lore but the Elder Scrolls franchise in general is way more consistent than Fallout.

[@doctirdaddy4876]

You're missing the point. They turned the BoS into generic space marines.

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

generic space marine....what is the generic space marine, you mean 40k where they murder everything insight? yea no that's not what the BOS do, -

[@lt_hammerfist5532]

I mean that’s basically what they always were

[@Slender_Man_186]

They kinda always were to an extent, they’d sooner send you in a suicide mission than help you.

[@Idazmi7]

@@Slender_Man_186 "Paladins are in charge of all security and outside activities. I remember tradin' with the Hub, goin' on scouting missions for the Elders. Ah man, those ware a good times." "Butch is the head of the Far Go Traders. He's a little slimy, but he's not a total waste. Unlike those Water Merchants. Bunch of damn vultures, all of 'em." "You want to hear about the Water Merchants. Hehehe, well you can't trust them. A few years ago, they offered us Water for a huge stockpile of weapons. We told them no, and you know what they did? Sent in thieves to steal the weapons! We caught 'em, but the Elders voted down going to the Hub to teach the merchants a lesson." All those lines are from John Maxon, Elder of the Brotherhood. They were not generic space marines.

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@Idazmi7 so he makes it clear he hates the only economy around for miles, seemingly was in favor of moving on the Hub, still pretty xenophobic, still a techno religious isolationist, but somehow not basically space marines?

[@White_Tiger93]

Lenny tells us that Ghouls cannot run, yet they run in Fallout 3 (and 4) Ghoulification takes a while to happen, yet Moira becomes a ghoul in a matter of minutes. The GECK was a device which contained various components, including a small nuclear reactor and seeds, In Fallout 3 it explodes. Myron creates Jet in New Reno, yet you can find it in a pre-war vault in Fallout 4, and everywhere in the wasteland in pre-war containers. Vertibirds where created by the Enclave in Fallout 2, then it was changed in Fallout 3 to say that it was a pre-war prototype vehicle, then it was confirmed to be pre-war in Fallout 4.

[@realwolfingen8896]

I liked the Fallout3 BoS, it makes sense for a faction to "evolve"

[@Zeoinx69]

This, this is pretty much my comment with less detail xD

[@magmat0585]

I think Fallout 3 & 4's presentation of the BoS makes sense in the context that Bethesda might have lifted some ideas from Fallout Tactics. Most notably the idea of the BoS having airships, but in Fallout Tactics, the BoS expedition is made up of dissidents essentially, people who support a different plan of action for the way the future of the BoS, and the leadership essentially sends them off on a long, dangerous mission to get them out of the way. Eldar Lyons was also sent on a long, dangerous mission, also with ideas at odds with the rest of the elders, and considering the fact that he kept control of the DC BoS's base instead of the outcasts, and appears to have more of the original members (he definitely has more scribes than the outcasts), he wasn't alone in having ideas, although he appears to be more idealistic than the rest of his men (based on the amount of complaining some of them do), which could explain the backlash that leads to Fallout 4's BoS

[@ravnir]

I've always viewed the brotherhood as similar to the mechanicus of 40k

[@naughtybear2187]

The brotherhood wishes they were that cool

[@ravnir]

@@naughtybear2187 yes

[@TheQuyman]

I think the writing just really amazed at the size difference between chapters and how they're essentially different groups with the same name of this point. I'd love to see a story where two disparate chapters meet for the first time and both are fighting over who is the real Brotherhood of Steel

[@KaptifLaDistillerie]

My man is taking facts and brings them to us with objective arguments. Well thank you, i'm subbing !

[@alejandroelluxray5298]

On behalf of Jacob, after the events of Fallout 1 it will be expected from the BoS to have open hostility towards Super Mutants as they will still be seen as a threat even after the death of The Master, After all they are still umpredictable, Well armed brutes who could tear You apart

[@Captianmex1C0]

Is there a mod that converts them into the Outcasts? I like the idea that the Outcasts Built a Zeppelin alot more than the idea that the Eastern brotherhood just abandoned the capital wasteland after risking everything to protect them.

[@Kelis98]

Tactics is Semi canon, some of the devs have said this. The BoS in 3 is more good, but it is explained that they are different than the west coast BoS, which is why the outcasts existed. In 4 they are evil (at least more openly evil), but this is explained to be put in place my Maxon. I do wish that they were more like 3, or that there was an option to change their mind/leader. In 76 they felt out of place, but at the very least they were explained why they are there and they did show the differences. Even in 1 and NV have endings in which they open up more. I think they were done well in 3, but not as well in 4 and 76 (though there are some good ideas, I just wish it were done better).

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Bar a difference in opinion (I'm not a giant fan of Lyonhood), you've essentially said what I said, just without a 20 minute video to go along with it. My issue with 3's Brotherhood isn't the Lyon mission change so much as the presentation of the change. I don't feel like it gives enough attention to the difference and focuses far too much on Lyonhood while saying "We're THE Brotherhood" rather than saying "We're a Brotherhood rogue faction." Yes, as shown in the video there are a number of lines that speak about the difference. But it's not front and center. What IS front and center is the Lyon chapter, that was cut off from the main Brotherhood faction for mission change, saying "We are the Brotherhood." When, for all intents and purposes, the Brotherhood has rejected them.

[@Kelis98]

@@GamesTwiceOver Fair enough, I think it’s explained well enough that they are different, though perhaps if they could had gone a bit further (such as mention it more or change the name) less people would have complained about them.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

It's explained well, but only if you go down that rabbit hole. It's not really part of the main quest. It's a very easily missable set of lines. And the Outcasts have about two or three quests between them, so the possible interaction with that side is minimal even of you're a "dialogue junkie." What I feel like they should have done was actually make the Lyons division The Outcasts - after all, they literally were casted out of the Western Elders' graces - the real Brotherhood.

[@Kelis98]

@@GamesTwiceOver I suppose that might have worked if they swapped the names, personally I don’t mind how it was done, but it would address some confusion.

[@theweppe27]

Patrolling the KZbin while watching Fallout videos makes me wish for a great day to everyone.

[@anafu-sankanashi8933]

a winner is you

[@cumpilled]

dropping a like, excellent video, hope this blows up. also it perfectly surmised how i myself feel about the situation, good shit yo

[@GamesTwiceOver]

My guy

[@GingaNinjaSupreme]

You know i just thought of something, elder maxson in fallout 4 was a kid in fallout 3. You talk to Elder Lyons and he talks about how he was sent to the branch of the BoS in the capital wasteland... after the capital wasteland BoS already went rouge from the western faction. Why would the western send a direct descendant of their founder to a rouge faction that did not have any relation to who they were? or am i missing something from the story from 3/4? Also (an add-on just thinking about it) how did the young Maxson, who was practically raised by Elder Lyons and his daughter, change so drastically to fit the western fallout BoS chapters? again it has been a long time since I have played 4 and these are just things that i am now wondering seeing this video.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

fallout-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Citadel_terminals#New_Entry:_Scribe_Arthur_Maxson Basically, the story is there was so much internal conflict, that somehow the Citadel was considered safer. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Lyons also used to be pretty respected, which does make more sense. As for Arthur changing, he has a pretty important family history. I imagine he did a lot of studying of all his predecessors. He's a student of history and of current affairs. So, this worked with Lyons, that worked with John Maxson, mix some of ideas together. Wouldn't be surprised if he studied world leaders too. Nothing motivates soldiers like having an enemy.

[@GingaNinjaSupreme]

@@GamesTwiceOver Yea that is fair to say, it is just crazy how so much changes in 10 years. And while i see lyons being respected, I cant imagine him being in good graces at that time becuase (if i remember correctly) Lyons basically went rouge when/after the event in the Pitt 30 years before fallout 3 so it still doesnt make too much sense to me that he would still be in their good graces. Also, as we all know, fallout 3's wasteland is probably the least safe considering there is no central structure with a crap ton of roaming raiders and super mutants and mercenaries. At the very least, out west there are structured organizations such as the NCR, Followers of the Apocalypse, etc. which made the area out west safer than the east just in terms of the amount of hostile faction (i feel that there is more of a danger from the wildlife than raiders and super mutants). There are other chapters of the Brotherhood that I am surprised that the first one that came to mind for them was "screw it send him 2000 miles to the other side of the country". I just feel like maxson was added in fallout 3 to try and create a sense of nostalgia/connect to the older games for the players who played classic fallout and started playing fallout 3, but there was not a lot of thought put into it. Again, this is just a thought/opinion and tbh there is probably still a lot of info that i am missing but based off of what i know from the games and reading the lore it just doesn't make that much sense to me.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

"how so much changes in 10 years. " This is pretty common in real life. Every decade, there's a cultural shift in identity. I don't know why 10 years does it, but there's a reason why we talk about life and use terms like "the 60s, the 70s, the 80s," etc. "I just feel like maxson was added in fallout 3 to try and create a sense of nostalgia/connect to the older games for the players who played classic fallout and started playing fallout 3," this is exactly it, in the end. I do also think they just, in general, really like the Maxson lineage and wanted to be able to use it in future titles. I think they completely decided, when creating the kid in 3, to make Arthur the next game's Elder, one way or the other.

[@zakthewack]

I have no idea how you only have 1k subs because this is very high quality. This is the type of channel to raise the bar for videogame discussion channels and you're absolutely killing it with your topics. Thank you for the content.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

For what it's worth, a week ago, I was at 70 subs. (Knock on wood.)

[@user-rs7mb7tp8y]

For me brotherhood from Fallout 4 is the best brotherhood. It took all best parts from the all brotherhood chapters from other fallout games. They are patrolling the commonwealth and kill every hostile scum that can harm normal wastelanders(just like in fallout 3). They are collecting technology, because it can get into the wrong hands of raiders or supermutans and bring more death and destruction on the wastes(just like OG brotherhood). The brotherhood have completely secured Capital wasteland, killed all “yellow” supermutans and were able to produce power armor and build a zeppelin.(Almost like brotherhood from fallout: tactics). Inever understand why everybody start hating Maxson after he orders to kill Dance. Paladin Dance is basically a sleeping agent of the institute. He also has a lot of information about brotherhood, their infrastructure. Also, If we will side with railroad we will see how easy Railroad destroys Prydwen by one or two infiltrators with bombs.(Sorry for grammar, I’m from Russia)

[@Demicleas]

Its more of a over exateration of the brotherhood and how overused they are dispite there low numbers and recruitment. remember there a reclusive isolated pre war oeginisation founded by U.S. army defectors the fact theve spread out so much across the U.S. dispite how Big the U.S. Achualy is is staggering and how they even manage to keep on contact with other chapters dispite the fact even the damn enclave can't Is also a mistary. I mean not even the metro series books and games or the wastland games included have any sort of oeginisation or faction span that wide of power and control over vast stretches of land. Sure they might send out small patrol expeditions but to send entire fleets of brotherhood across the U.S. is baffling especially there low numbers and recorcess how they even made the airships idk maby there pre war airships who knows we're they even got the airstrips required to house and build these things.

[@thegamerfe8751]

Well in Fallout 4 they're too stupid to even be called Brotherhood Of Steel. They fucking destroyed the entirety of The Institute instead of occupying the most technologically advanced place in the USA (at least as far as we know from the lore) and destroying anything Synth related.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

I finally gave FO76 a chance. Been playing it for about a month. It's not as bad as I expected. I'm not in love with it, but it's ok. I liked the Taggerdy's Thunder backstory in that game. It makes sense that a military group that only has contact with the Brotherhood on the west coast via radio would be a different kind of BoS. Less concerned with the preservation of technology and more interested in the people of that region. It worked for me.

[@shaquilleoatmeal911]

Anyone wondering why the BoS exploded the Institute instead of capturing it, it would lead to some very advanced tech especially to health care and would make a good factory

[@CondemnedInformer]

Doesn't lore state that a ghoul, now matter how old, will eventually turn feral? Like a time bomb.

[@MrSmileyRay]

Yeah but it’s racist to point that out.

[@user-fp3in2kf3b]

@@MrSmileyRay we talk about post apocaliptic world where nowdays total tolerance mean nothing and human survivors usually speak by using gun and not their tongue?

[@ORIGINALFBI]

The cannon ending in the first game has them open up and become an R&D kinda department. Integrating technology into people's lives. Many A True Nerd said it well in his Fallout 3 is Better Than You Think video. They were always destined to be "the good faction"

[@martyrobbins3543]

Yes, but they stayed out of major power struggles, refusing to be "good" or "bad"

[@ORIGINALFBI]

@@martyrobbins3543 Yea so why they fought with the NCR after (before NV) I'd beyond me. They Allied. Why would they break the treaty? It was beneficial for both

[@shuvari7707]

@@ORIGINALFBI After the destruction of the enclave's main base in Fallout 2, this opened up a power vacuum in which both the NCR and the BOS wanted to reap the spoils of war. The BOS wanted to inherit the bulk of Enclave technology and the NCR wanted to keep expanding their power. Due to disagreements on how said technology would be controlled, this opened up an avenue for war between the two groups.

[@Starlesslemon]

2:15 Don't forget about the BOS outcasts that completely fit the original design.

[@Chedring]

Also, it makes complete sense why Lyons would continue the Brotherhood name rather than the Outcasts. The name and symbol holds the faction together, everyone there was born and raised under it. Keeping the name more than likely holds some people from leaving.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

I have less of an issue with Lyons keeping the name but more of an issue with Casdin adopting the "Outcast" name. They did so to get back at Lyons, but somehow I don't see changing their name, logo, painting their armor, and even renaming their ranks while saying "We're the real Brotherhood" a great way to do that. Meanwhile, Lyonshood was actually casted out by the Western Elders. It's a really confusing dynamic for new players.

[@zc8673]

Bethesda doesn't understand what any of the factions stand for. In fact, I'd argue that none of their versions of factions actually stand for anything at all. That's why they always feel so weak. They're just constantly retconning everything to please what they think the fallout community wants to see. This applies to all the factions, beyond the BoS. They have no idea how to even write a faction with any depth, they're always just black and white good guy / bad guy with different skins. A perfect example is the Outcasts. They had a fantastic opportunity to actually explore the conflict between a chapter that has turned towards charity, verses the original purpose of the BoS. But as you said, you can literally go through the entire game of F3 without even meeting the Outcasts or really knowing they exist at all. It's a damn shame, and I really hope they invest in a solid writing crew for F5 because they fucking need one.

[@troglodude980]

I unironically think they made the bos much better creating a better dynamic then just "good guys in power armor" newvegas did the same thing to a much lesser extent, making them more reclusive and more wary of the outside

[@samiamtheman7379]

If anything, with Bethesda, the BoS is at least developing. Their arc in the first game is they need to open up to the wasteland, F2 shows aftermath of that, and NV's BoS arc is that they...need to open up to the wasteland.

[@naughtybear2187]

@@samiamtheman7379 that is a *VERY* large heavy generalization of the games

[@anafu-sankanashi8933]

​@@samiamtheman7379 new Vegas explored the purpose of the bos. Questioning at what point do they stop being safe caches for lost tech and just hoarders. Their reclusive and aggressive stance to the wasteland is why no one wants to team up with them and would rather nuke em. Heck their leader is partial to change and does want peace but it causes unrest to the others since they are so hardlined into the codec that even the thought of change to them sounds insubordinate. It's a very natural attack at the very core of the brotherhoods principles. It is a lot more than just open up to the wasteland, That's the boomers questline.

[@HailsAlfadir]

Fallout 4 BoS us just the Nazis 1.have airship as HQ 2.Hate anyone who is not them 3.Will "Unite" everyone 4.Believe they are the purist humans 5.Worship Maxson Honestly God bless the Enclave

[@Cobblestone8_alt_account]

God bless the enclave niko

[@ceilingfan3589]

@@Cobblestone8_alt_account God bless the enclave phillip

[@magicman3163]

I can never understand the trope of the faction that wants to save humanity being considered bad in future genre games

[@KruberFan]

Fallout 2 Enclave is just the Nazis 1. Have a remote oil rig as HQ 2. Hate anyone who is not them 3. Will "Rebuild" America 4. Believe they are the purist humans 5. Worship themselves Honestly, Ad Victoriam

[@collincaperton6718]

Other points are valid but how in any way does them living in a blimp translate to them being nazis?

[@Connordaboss45]

I think Fallout 4 is what would happen if the Brotherhood in Fallout NV won their war and kicked out the NCR

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Thing is, Brotherhood just doesn't have the numbers for that. That's pretty much the entire point of Veronica's quest.

[@Connordaboss45]

@@GamesTwiceOver yeah, its more a what if, as opposed to if they really could

[@RelativelyBest]

Huh, it's _almost_ as if it all comes down to the ideology of their leader and that leader's interpretation of what they are supposed to do. As if, I dunno, like people in the Brotherhood are capable of having differing opinions resulting in the occasional shift in policy.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

It also helps that, after decades in the Capital Wasteland, a lot of Arthur's Brotherhood were raised by a different doctrine compared to those out West. That's something I didn't talk about. I really should do a video discussing the changes of the Brotherhood from that perspective.

[@himeros8826]

Man you make me change my opinión totally. I played FO3 yeeeaaaars ago, same with New Vegas, so I was so pissed off with FO4 and Bethesda, that in all my playthrough I just shoot them up. Now that I'm remembering this things, with your arguments and words, I think that I'm changing my point of view. THANKS! And hope you continue with this kinda of videos, your work is awesome!:) New sub

[@HazzronIV]

I feel like the switch from "too Good" to "too Evil" in 4 was character development for them. I never thought any of it was out of line because it made sense to my internal logic that many capital wasteland brotherhood knights would probably hate ghouls and super mutants with a passion, while also seeing Elder Lyons as weak, for forcing them to use their tech to protect others from those threats exactly. Basic cause and effect.

[@lorddeathofmurdermountain76]

"That could be the only one of its kind" I've found hundreds of them at big mountain its only a matter of time before the NCR finds a truckload of them out in the wasteland

[@fXInn14]

A problem i had with F4 BOS was from a faction that seemed so disunited with genuine dislike between the groups in F3 in F4 they almost feel far to united in F4. id have hoped for some lingering tensions between the old outcasts and lyonshood in the game, as an example you'll often hear random BOS NPCs chastising Lyons with nobody defending him and nobody who doesn't praise Maxson endlessly i thought there should be a few who came into the fold with Lyons who should have been more sceptical of Maxson.

[@GrandmasterDinnerRoll]

My take exactly. I find it impossible to believe that EVERYONE in the Capital Chapter abandoned Elder Lyons’ beliefs after his and Sarah’s deaths. No way in hell every since member became a rabid, anti-synth fanatic like Maxson is the span of less than a decade.

[@galacticquasaur2956]

I appreciate Fallout 3's brotherhood a lot and I agree with your points about the people calling them "Goody two shoes". Despite them being considered good, you can see the cracks with dialogue between members with it going along the lines of "I thought I joined the brotherhood, not a charity operation" and with the whole Outcast dilemma. I think Bethesda actually did a good job of showing that despite the appearance of seeming good, there are still problems. (Although, I still wish we could have joined the enclave as an option) [Oh as a final note, great video! :D]

[@flamesofchaos13]

Yep...Broken Steel even outright shows it. These Brotherhood Knights are guarding a water caravan then some settlers at Megaton got pissed because of rationing get angry and eventually attack it (you can stop them yourself peacefully by talking it out or let it happen) then the Knights slaughter them all...Just doing their jobs right? Then they say we report that there was no incident that the water was delivered peacefully. They are willing to directly lie to their superiors and didn't try to compromise with the settlers that were simply desperate their only thought and course of action was to fire and cover it up. Heck I think they even used some derogatory term for them too.

[@SakuraShirakawa]

I think the idea behind the name outcasts was based not on the split of the ideal, but that the faction openly defied the elder. Note I said name, not reason for split.

[@jollyfatman1847]

I think the lore surrounding them is pretty good especially with it being on how they act now getting more powerful in sorta like a Renaissance and them usually being a faction who doesn't interact much with the wasteland aside from technology hording I could see them going down the enclave route

[@____________838]

My head canon(which is somewhat backed up by lore), FO4’s Maxon Brotherhood seems to have not only welcomed the “Outcast” Brotherhood back into their numbers, but some leftovers of the Enclave that was destroyed in FO3. This is in part because of FO4’s Brotherhood being even more xenophobic towards mutants, but also technological marvels like synths; their usage of vertibirds and modification of old technology for use in new forms like the Prydwn; and the creation of a wholly new division within their brotherhood, the Lancers to go alongside Knights and Scribes.

[@tylerellis9097]

Tbh I enjoy the BOS in every game and always join them.

[@user-un5xj1wl6p]

Just the armor and the ideal, as one man said once: "You're not a Enclave soldier Jojo, you're a 10 year old boy who wants to fit in, and will do anything." I'm not stating you're a kid you're just the fan of the coolness in the end...

[@okaythen4784]

yea thats respectable of course I want to join the faction that has power armor and minigun and not the people who do taxes

[@user-un5xj1wl6p]

@Harold uhm I said I'm not stating he's younger I just made a demi quote...a refference if you will...

[@johnsemeniuk8230]

As someone whose first experience with Fallout was Fallout 3, going into Vegas, I did run into that shock of finding a completely different Brotherhood of Steel, seeming less like the Lyonhood, and more like the Outcasts I'd spotted by that one ramshackle hut with the Quantum on top in the northern Capital Wasteland. Then I did my research, and discovered that 'jarring' New Vegas BoS? That was the real BoS. I won't do a deep delve into my thoughts and opinions, but... yeah. My only thing would be that it would've been interesting to see that ideological schism between the Lyonhood and the greater BoS deepen, though from a story perspective, that just was never going to happen, seeing as how maintaining Project Purity was stretching Lyonhood resources extremely thin.

[@caseypittman9950]

My issue is it seemed like during the development with Fallout 4, Bethesda was trying too hard to find a way to all but retcon Fallout 3, make it as if Elder and Sentinel Lyons never were a thing.

[@sweetmcnasty]

Here's your answer: Bethesda had to either a) Have them die off (as they said about themselves in New Vegas) and come up with whole new protagonists. Or b) Give them another purpose to keep them from dying off so fanboys have something to reminisce about (sales, profit, cha-ching). I wonder why they went with this. BTW FO76 just reuses the fractured Brotherhood plotline from 3.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Yes but the question was "Did they ruin them?" Not 'Why are they reusing them?'

[@sweetmcnasty]

@@GamesTwiceOver Yes, they did ruin them. They were ancillary in FO1/ FO2/ FONV and should have died off after defeating the Enclave (thus fulfilling their purpose in a way). BOS on the East Coast is just fan service. BTW, I am new to Fallout and I can already tell.

[@MrBoxen]

@@sweetmcnasty They were never going to die with the original Devs though, they traveled more east in the Cancelled Fallout 3. There was going to be a new chapter around Colorado in a bunker called Maxson's Bunker. Black Isles/Interplay/Obsidian was going to keep doing the same thing as Bethesda as in putting them in every game. It makes sense that they'll be all over the place, they're trying to reclaim all technology.

[@christophervoiers8517]

@@sweetmcnasty the Brotherhood of Steel's purpose was not to die off it was to help people from themselves by taking technology and The Enclave didn't even die off in Fallout 2 so you can't really say that the Brotherhood of Steel would just die off immediately after defeating a faction I mean they had that purifier for a long time if you play Broken Steel they have it under control I guess you wouldn't understand some of these things since you are new but my advice is to play Fallout 3 and New Vegas to stay away from Fallout 4 don't play that game first it always gives people that are new to Fallout the wrong opinion of the Brotherhood of Steel the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4 are bad but not that bad I feel like they are mediocre at best but they are evil but not as evil as The Institute

[@Chedring]

The Old Appalachian BoS were great with what little info we were given. Though you could easily call them something else and be a BoS-like faction without the name. Heck they have a name... Taggerty's Thunder.

[@TalkingRaven_]

15:48 that Brotherhood Lancer-Knight looking thicc tho

[@steven20653]

The changes to the Brotherhood between games makes sense. Organizations change overtime and between locations.

[@mr-century]

New Vegas is so excellent at presentation and world building that 3 and 4 look like they ruined them by comparison. If you take NV out of the equation, the Lyonhood makes a lot of sense. After Project Purity I’m sure many of the Lyonhood members would be ready to follow Maxson on a new big quest

[@punishedghost4970]

Fallout 4's Brotherhood is a more flawed version of the faction in my eyes. While I love the idea of keeping dangerous technology out of the hands of those who will use it to do harm, I can't say I'm a fan of their views of non-feral ghouls, freed synths, and intelligent super mutants. I was not about to kill Danse over Elder Maxon's paranoia over synths. (Thank goodness I managed to talk my way out of that part.)

[@claytopolis]

Oh i agree. Especially how they decided to destroy the institute instead of occupy it. Yeah they hate synths but the synth machine is just one room of the whole place. There is a lot there they could at the very least learn from and repurpose.

[@benshapirosgreasycock5381]

You might not be a supporter but that does not make them poorly written.

[@Gutvald]

They are just brutal, overconfident, narrow-minded and militaristic. After all, they are remnants of the US Pre-war military and a kind of Enclave themselves. 99% of Supermutants are dangerous and animals, most of the ghouls will became ferals one day, synths are made for infiltration and spy for a secret and evil organisation which is another type of Enclave and only a little % break free ... It's a reasonnable and logic point of view of nuking and gunning everyone.

[@senorbaguette2269]

BoS: isolationist technocratic faction which looks down upon outsiders, and thus not a very big faction Bethesda’s BoS: massive major faction which helps outsiders and are basically good guy enclave

[@VoltieBird]

Looking back on this with hindsight from the Steel Dawn update to 76, it's interesting that the BoS character meant to represent the streak of Brotherhood members who show compassion to outsiders, Paladin Rahmani, has her power armor painted in Outcast colors, while Knight Shin, the one who is devoted solely to the doctrine of the Brotherhood, wears factory standard colors. That would seem to be much better in line with the idea that Lyons' Brotherhood were the true outcasts, but it also kind of makes the symbolism of Danse's power armor being painted in faded, chipped Outcast colors a little nonsensical.

[@tjhedgescout3052]

I don't really consider 4's BoS as progression imo. Just a different path. When Lyons was elder i was a die hard BoS supporter. But Maxson taking over, i just don't want anything to do with them.

[@peppers7222]

I wouldn’t say that they Ruined it fully, I would say that they ruined it but managed to fit it into the Lore so…. They Halfway ruined it?

[@st.paddymad7085]

It’d be cool if I could apply the BoS VII Elder paint-job to my X-01 amour.

[@tobe1207]

Off topic, the followers in NV Once maxed and with right weapon, are crazy deadly. Boone with an auto sniper or .50, Raul with lucky or some lever gun, and Veronica with the greaseglove... heads fly literally

[@sincereeastman6972]

Bethesda needs to stop making them a major faction

[@DJWeapon8]

All portrayals of the Brotherhood of Steel should be: • Only on the West Coast • Only as a powerful, but isolationist minor faction. • Within only 210 years after thr Great War. After New Vegas' timeframe(I don't consider Fallout 3, 4, or 76 canon), which is around 210 years after the Great War, the BoS shouldn't exist as a faction anymore. They're an ideological dead end. At best, they've disbanded. Scattered across the wastes as common wastelanders and refugees that were once BoS members. Like the Enclave Remnants in New Vegas. At worst. Every Brotherhood of Steel member died in their bunkers.

[@Ares42ful]

I came into the fallout series at 3 and after playing the first 2 a few years later along with 4 and NV, I personally feel that it makes sense to have the BOS as a central faction on the east coast makes sense. It all starts with Elder Lyons, who after traveling through the ruins of the old world and most likely seeing suffering upon suffering experiences an ideological shift that leads him to have his chapter be more altruistic if a bit naive. The brotherhood are technophiles but they're still human seeing the squalor of the wasteland would make most people a little more sympathetic, so the BOS being the good guys in 3 makes alot of sense imo. What I feel bethesda could have done for 4 is show that East Coast BOS is diverging from the West in other ways, like having a provisional or permanent government in the capital and may be attempting to extend their influence to boston while also trying to claim the institute for themselves.

[@Agent_N7]

When I consider the distance between east and west coasts and the fact that elder Lyons knew what happened out west it actually makes sense that he tried to steer the east coast chapter down a different path. He sees that the brotherhood won't outlive everyone the way the codex says. He sees that hoarding technology accomplishes anything if it isn't used to help civilization recover. He's the elder the brotherhood needed. It also makes sense that the outcasts were a group the splintered off from his group. They had the smaller group on the east and elder Lyons was in charge of the larger group in the east.

[@johnkonig865]

Mate, Fallout 1 plays around 84 years after the great war, let's say the Brotherhood of the region killed on average 1.000 mutants and ghouls each month while they searched for more tech, doesn't sound too unreasonable, right? That's 1.008.000 threats to the wasteland gone right there, to put that into perspective, 2241, so 80 years later, the NCR is estimated to have a population of a little above 700.000, the Brotherhood isn't the problem, factions like the NCR are.

[@sammoore5459]

Good in depth review. As I'm playing my NV BoS member run through, I've thought back how exactly to play it out as if I were an East member somehow miraculously moving out West due to excommunication or lack of leadership. Your video has shown me the true path. My hatred for Muties is justified, and until I meet Marcus I will continue the mission. Ad Victoriam 🤖

[@russianbot2630]

I like the BoS in FO4 the best. I don't see the as villains, just nuanced and imperfect, as all people are. In fact, seem to be the best hope for the wasteland. The killing of ghouls seems to display the fact life is cheap in the wasteland, a tragedy of the setting.

[@Youngblood457]

I wouldn’t say they are the best hope they are the most powerful hope. I would go more with the ideologies of the minute man

[@filthycasual8187]

@@Youngblood457 I usually have my BOS Sentinel in 4 start up the Minutemen after destroying the Institute with the BOS and roleplay it as a sort of unofficial extension of the BOS, the idea being to allow the Minutemen the BOS' resources so they can better do the job they want to do.

[@Youngblood457]

@@filthycasual8187 I am mean that does take a lot of metal gymnastics if you how many interactions with this branch of the brotherhood. I went with the rail road because they won’t interfere with the Minutemen when I build them up. And it keeps the BOS from seeing the minutemen as a threat until I strike.

[@Nope-ik8wv]

Weird, I didn’t like fallout 3 or new Vegas bos but I liked 4’s

[@GamesTwiceOver]

I think it partly has to do with how focused they seemed to be. 3 and NV both are kinda just struggling to stay afloat, mind you in different capacities. 3 BoS is struggling via constant skirmishes with Super Mutants, while NV BoS just lost a major war and hiding out. 4 BoS is actually acting like a military nation. Also helps that 4 power armor looks very good, like the 1 and 2 sprites brought to 3D - bulky. where as the power armor of 3 and NV is scrawny.

[@fatterguy8443]

NV bos. Was cut like 100% to only 20%. They were BIG but due to consoles performance issues they were cut. Man i really wish they remaster the game and restore all cut contents the amount that was cut is painful to count that is if you have time to count them all.

[@Nope-ik8wv]

@@GamesTwiceOver true I guess gameplay is a huge part

[@Nope-ik8wv]

@@fatterguy8443 damn I would love to see a video of what they were supposed to be

[@fatterguy8443]

@@Nope-ik8wv there is a video dedicated to looking at all the cut contents. 1 hour... And thats not all of the cut content. "1 Hour of new vegas cut content"

[@dukefanshawe6815]

Loot gathering Idea. Grab everything and put the stuff you don't want at the front most container in the building/Vault or where ever. Then you can look through and grab everything in each location and come back and know where everything is. You don't have to keep going through to find the stuff you forgot about.

[@zatchary]

I feel like in a real post-apocalypse you would have a faction change over time and based on location. It makes sense that the brotherhood wouldn’t keep the same tactics/beliefs especially when the games see the player character convince them to give up their isolationist attitudes

[@kilroy3446]

I checked your channel out man nice video

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Thanks, guy. I'm trying to find a groove. Doing a lot of discussion around Fallout ideas, trying to get a formula. Get comfortable speaking at a mic. Also trying to come up with interesting topics. If you got any suggestions, feel free

[@nstar674]

I'm overall fine with Bethesda's brotherhood, I just want them to be a smaller role.

[@TheFlamerWolf]

Obsiden did just that in fallout new Vegas

[@RedDogForge]

i think they've done a fairly decent job showing the impact a cult of personality can have on an organization with structural control issues. in the lore of early FO theres stories o this phenomenon, the tendancy of the group to fracture into factions from within. they definately missed the boat with the outcasts for some decent storytelling but overall have told a consistant story in regards to the tendency of the group to vary wildly in ideology due to a lack of centralized command and control.

[@lewischerry3552]

The thing is the brotherhood in 3 being the paragon of good, is addressed, it’s not like Bethesda didn’t play 1 saw them on the box art and decided they should be the heroes. The outcasts are a faction who want to uphold the original aims of the brotherhood. Also in the ending slides of 1 it implies the the brotherhood gets less isolationist and becomes a major R and D house. Factions goals and aims are going to change over time and that’s fine. The main problem with the brotherhood in 3 is that they’re the only resolution to a the main quest and they’re just kinda uninteresting.

[@VarnasL]

Did Bethesda RUIN the Brotherhood of Steel? Kinda, they just didn't understood it very well

[@wisecontragio172]

I liked fo4 s brotherhood but i m a fan of the enclave so dunno if that counts... in fnv if i didn t destroy them I always sided with the more militaristic Hardin

[@callofdutysoldier1239]

I think the reason why the Outcasts differentiate themselves from Lyon's Brotherhood can be explain for a couple of reasons. 1. While the west coast cut communication support from Lyon's Brotherhood, the west coast still consider them part of the faction (most likely that Lyons did achomplished the objective of procurment of vast technology when taking the Pentigon). This causes a catch-22 for the Outcasts, while Lyon's chapter changed priorities, they technically aren't traitors so the Outcasts can't just leave and claim themselves as the same chapter. 2. By 2277, the people of the Capital Wasteland basically have a different perspective on the BoS. During the 20 years of of BoS occupation, wastelanders and the settlements viewed the BoS as real knights in shining armor due to their ealier actions of killing raiders, slavers, and super mutants and full a period of time even protected settlements. So not to have wastelanders confuse them with Lyons, the Outcasts rebranded themselves to avoid this. Those are my reasons why the Outcasts temporally declared themselves as a splinter faction due to both legitimacy and not to be mistaken by the wastelanders.

[@thedoggo5139]

18:31 yeah while the Bos might be zenophobic in the past in new vegas in the first quest when mcnamara sends you to recover the missing paladins holotapes one of them says "Paladins Hughes and Fairbanks, I need you two to head north to the nearby communication array and look for the components mentioned in the briefing. The mutants there have been reasonable in the past and may prove helpful" i think the brotherhood in the west isnt as zenophobic as the east one

[@Clarkamadorian]

Yep. At least the Enclave and the NCR has their shit together.

[@weezersthebluealbum9479]

I feel like the question "Did Bethesda ruin *blank*" is just an automatic yes every time.

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Did Bethesda ruin my breakfast?

[@reeeeeeeeeeeeeeman6757]

@@GamesTwiceOver yes

[@Fallout_Survivor]

If one brotherhood member screamed FOR THE EMPEROR! I could legit think i was on warhammer 40k considering how much you fell badass wearing the new improved power armor, and mostly cause bouth hate xenos to the core lol

[@XerouEffect13]

i knew about fallout. had a few friends that had fallout 1. i never got to play them. until i got my own system. fallout new vegas was given to me. that is how i was introduced gameplay wise. i fell in love. then i played 3. then 4. i have seen friends play 1 and 2. i love the fallout series.

[@ThumbSipper]

NO dude, you don't get it? Factions are supposed to stay exactly the same no matter how many damn games they appear in, it doesn't matter if they get dull or repetitive, the important part is that the more conservative fans are not challenged and taken out of their comfort zone. Now excuse me but I need to rewatch that "not biased at all" video from HBomberguy for the tenth time. Great video btw.

[@captainkiok881]

I think you forget that canonically, the Brotherhood had many different leaders in each game which means that in each game the brotherhood are run differently.

[@MasterGordon5115]

But their core principles being the same?

[@GeteMachine]

If Lyons is the reason the Brotherhood in the DC were cut off due to conflicts of interest, then the outcasts would be the side Lyons would have thrown out or left because they didn't support Lyons, and while the whole outpost was cut off from communication by the west, the Outcasts would be outnumbered and isolated in result of the West group punishing Lyons. Maybe that explains why event though they're following the old mission, they're stuck with nothing as a result.

[@comradestalin1109]

I remember my first fallout game Nv I was a kid looking in the bunkers with Veronica and had no clue about the the brother hood but I was in the bunker before and she just walked up and talked and let me in I was fucking amazed

[@biraptor6205]

Did Bethesda ruin Fallout*

[@GamesTwiceOver]

Ooh, I'd have to walk on some very thin ice with such a video.

[@lethalflailfist]

The Brotherhood of Steel were always raiders in power armour. Power armour in Fallout is iconic, not the factions that wear them.

[@lasarousi]

Found the f76 fan.

[@lethalflailfist]

I was never dumb enough to buy it.

[@ZeFluffyKnight]

My main issue with F3 and F4 Brotherhood is they seem to be way to much in the foreground instead of the background. The fact they are such a powerful force even though the original Brotherhood they come from is dwindling in size everyday (unless the Courier makes a truce with the NCR) just seems off. Not to mention what you discussed with the Outcasts. I also never understood the hatred towards Synths. I would think that very technology is something they would want to secure and horde for themselves. Especially when this very same group took over nuclear weapons, a giant death robot, and an Enclave satellite.

[@SHDW-nf2ki]

The fact that so many were willing to follow Lyons even though what he wanted was going against the very fabric of the BoS makes him dangerously close to a Mary Sue imo. He just gets his way because its the "right thing" Maxson is even worse. He went from being a fairly realistic depiction of a kid whose probably destined for horrible trauma and confidence issues due to being hailed as the BoS's chosen one. To being a generic unstoppable badass white dude with a patchy beard and eye scar. Where did Sarah Lyons go? It would have been great to see her leading the BoS in the wake of her father's dead and Maxsons' inevitable failure. Trying to recover and maybe gain some new ground in the Commonwealth to rebuild the brotherhood.