Female Custodes and Marines | 40K Discussion

[@KrakDuk]

Hello everyone, I hope you enjoy this video. I tried fixing the audio since I know it’s been a bit wonky in the past. Please me know if it sounds better👍

[@Smokescreen568]

What I dislike about female custodians is that GW said : um achtually there have always been female custodians!!!! And now anyone who dislikes female custodians is literally hittler. Also, the only reason they did this was so they could appease Amazon executives with a new girlboss.

[@swordbrotherplatt9392]

Thank you for explaining your opinion clearly and providing the example of the space marine. Instead for crying for diversity and inclusion without any reason, other than ‘because’. Your argument for the non-necessity of female space marines was well explained. And also, for the most part, fits the Custodies as well. I too believe that retcons, if done well, can only enhance the standing lore of the setting. But there in lies the problem. The ‘if done well’, part has not been GW strongest attribute. Going as far back as the Necrons, GW fiddling with the lore has been passable at best. And in the case of the primaris and femstodies disastrous. Let’s look to another franchise that has had many retcons. With many of them also being terrible, but the one I’ll highlight was actually good. The MCU (marvel comic universe) for the longest time, up to just before the release of Iron Man on the big screen. Nick Fury, director of SHIELD, was white. But then they chose to have Samuel L Jackson take that role. It was inspired, and really added depth to the character. Now let’s look to the lore change for the custodies… does adding female custodies do the same… No, in fact it takes away from the Sisters of Silence. As you stated when discussing the possibility of female space marines. Them being a monastic order of brothers with the Sisters of Battle being their counter part. So to the Custodies have the Sisters of Silence. To change the custodies lore now just to appease the obnoxious minority would be a disservice to the Sisters of Silence as well as going against long standing lore. And saying that there have always been female custodies leads to the issue of… well where have they been for the last 10,000 years. (In the kitchen?) Finally I have to disagree with you on the lack of female representation in the game. There are already many strong females across all the factions that have that binary distinction (Orks and Nids excluded of course)… although I’m not sure about these new Necrons. There entire regiments of the Imperial Guard that are wholly female. ( read about them in a Ciphas Cain novel) so in the end. I like many others will rightly sneer at any one who decides to field female custodies. We’ll still play against them of course, and complement them on their paint job if it deserves it. We will even graciously congratulate them should they win, but we will never accept female custodies. Unless of course they bring out the strip-stodies models for them like they had with the Emperors text to speech youtube series.😂😂😂

[@philosotree5876]

6:15 This is not true. Human are physically superior in a number of ways.

[@philosotree5876]

There is another reason all Primarchs and Astartes are male: The Emperor was male, so he has an XY chromosome. So his genes can't possible make female Primarchs without a mother, and thus the genes of his Primarchs would be incompatible with females.

[@Irobert1115HD]

i personaly thunk that the emperor created the astartes as a combat unit and as a helper troop to run the empire (hence why the ultramarines love filling tax forms and why the thousand sons where made twice) but ultimatively they where never ment to procreate to a larger number than required. also theres at least a tiny chance of transexual space marines wich would make them female but i guess not in the way the most agressive proponents for femstartes want them to be.

[@jarroderwin6989]

I think whether someone is for or against the retcon, we should all agree that making a lore change this big via social media should not become an acceptable method of updating lore.

[@anothernerd6464]

Didn’t it originate from the codex? But then it got leaked before the codex was out and GW had to clarify on twitter?

[@jarroderwin6989]

@anothernerd6464 The story was leaked from the codes with no context. We didn't know how or why there are female Custodes now. Then they "clarified" on Twitter, but the way it was done was to say they've always been around. This was a mistake for 2 reasons, the first obviously being that people who were concerned about the overly nerfed state of the Custodes were explicitly ignored in favor of clarifying a lore question. Second is that in clarifying, they made the retcon cannon over social media when they could have also left the question unanswered and taken more time to flesh out a better reason than "they've always been here, we just haven't mentioned them."

[@caveychip7]

Yup, social media is a terrible way to update the lore. Im looking at you sea of thieves mysterys. They were both terrible

[@samiamtheman7379]

AKA: The JK Rowling method.

[@xeno9671]

It'd be a funny way to do it tho

[@adamsakauye1395]

Bro you nailed it. The reason that 40k might be failing to represent women isn't because gender segregation exists in universe. The reason that it's failing to tell women's stories it's because it's not telling women's stories. It's right there.

[@somethingsmart4196]

My problem is that they won't give respect to the sisters of silence

[@dalemallon2924]

They didn't need to. The Sisters still perform their function and do it well. They haven't lost a thing.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

​@@dalemallon2924the sisters are just strictly worse assassins now

[@KopitioBozynski]

@@dalemallon2924 If the custodes project allows the flexibility for both males and females to be inducted then what's to stop blanks?

[@foxdavion6865]

Amazon wants a female girlboss who can talk. That is literally why they didn't want a Sister of Silence.

[@savontorres5760]

​@@KopitioBozynskiBlanks can't be Custodes or astartes due to their blankness interfering with the process . If you're saying why no males in the SoS then that's simply due to their tradition and origins .

[@evansketches]

I see that you are a Sam O' Nella 40k version. Nice👌 "Hey kids!"

[@KrakDuk]

lol thanks! I love Sam’s videos

[@Jechti307]

THis was litteraly my first thought to

[@Olothur]

It is sad that salmonella channel kinda died, but i am glad that there enough people to take up the flag!

[@nolanbaker2360]

​@@KrakDuk sam is a generational icon

[@KrakDuk]

@@nolanbaker2360 for real. He’s my hero

[@CoolGuy-hd8od]

Adding diversity to any faction in 40K is already kinda pointless. After all, the only gender in 40K is Tyranid food.

[@mahmoudsalaheddine8358]

I honestly don’t care about female custodes, just make a better excuse for the retcon than just “yeah they always existed”

[@brobandit2944]

Especially when they were never mentioned before

[@mahmoudsalaheddine8358]

@@brobandit2944 i mean they could easily just make the excuse of “oh they were lost in the warp and the emperor kept the warp hidden and nobody ever knew”. correct me if I’m wrong. It’s better than “oh they always existed we just never mentioned them”

[@brobandit2944]

@@mahmoudsalaheddine8358 I agree

[@dominikreinhart3457]

​@@mahmoudsalaheddine8358 I would have rather liked one of two ways: 1. The females always existed but their "creation process" is way harder to do during the great crusade and there where like a total of 50 of 10.000 making them an even rarer ressource (and no one wants to be responsible for the loss of such a valuable person) and the Emperor wanted to perfect the project after the great crusade and we know the rest of that story. 2. The Emporer had the blueprint always in his mind but due to his shattered psyche he couldn't tell anyone. Now with opened great rift he can do more (as seen with him helping G-Man out) and gave the blueprint to make them one of those custodes who frequently "talk" to him. Those would give an actual as just "they always existed".

[@williansnobre]

​@@dominikreinhart3457less numerous, focused on secrecy and the Blood Games, being a crazy experiment made after the Emperor took the big sit just like all the many foundings and now Primaris, so if female Custodes are ever explained they kinda go against what the Emperor wanted.

[@DMXKonCur]

For me I’m more annoyed that they would rather create female Custodes, than actually give love to the Sister’s of Silence. Kinda kills the dichotomy that the “Talons of the Emperor” presents. That and now all the horny redditors can’t stop gooning to the art, shit is annoying.

[@a_lethe_ion]

Just have both.

[@dalemallon2924]

It's not so bad. They never took anything away from the Sisters of Silence or really gave anything to Custodes. They still both have a role to perform and specialise in, and they do it well.

[@soman5348]

Add brothers of silence!

[@KopitioBozynski]

@@a_lethe_ion I'd rather they respect the lore for what it is rather than shoehorning in bullshit for the sake of political talking points

[@a_lethe_ion]

@@KopitioBozynski you know, not everything is for political talking points, you might disagree but it's pretty arrogant to decide that the side sharing your 'political' talking points is the one not disingenuous just because you want to keep things how they were

[@MISTERTR-rh9mg]

I believe that what i'm more mad about the fact that now people want to protest when games workshop had done a ton worse, when they created the primaris and make thousands of fans lost valuable armies, when they literally rewrite their own rules of the lore, when they cancel fan made series that everyone loved and everybody want, when they treat to demand every fan that dare to use a 3D printer, when they put back the squat just to never give them any source of lore, but ohhh no there is ONE woman in the custodies! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE

[@KrakDuk]

Yeah it’s pretty silly. I really think it’s just that this is a monetizable topic rage baiters can jump on. Ive seen “anti woke” channels that haven’t ever talked about 40K suddenly make multiple videos on the topic. It’s pretty ridiculous and makes the people who have reasonable complaints about the retcon look stupid. Sucks the internet is so reliant on outrage culture now, but it’ll blow over I’m sure. Anyways thanks for watching! I appreciate your thoughts

[@MISTERTR-rh9mg]

@@KrakDuk thanks man, love your videos i already subscribe

[@MISTERTR-rh9mg]

@@KrakDuk keep doing this great videos

[@KrakDuk]

@@MISTERTR-rh9mg thank you! I really love making vids so it’s awesome to see people enjoying them. Huge motivation

[@decondanieth3822]

Its because of two parts: 1. in minor, this time they didnt just retcon but essentially lied. This is far easier to sell people when theyre not engaged with what GW is doing as simply saying "Look, the company literally lied to us and changed the lore!" is very easy to sell 2. This can easily extend outside of 40k. To those who barely/dont keep up with 40k lore specifically, whether fans of the universe or not. They understand on an easy level the idea of "company injecting female characters into non-female space" and therefor can easily rally behind it. Try talking about what GW did with other bad stuff to people and you MIGHT get a "yea thats shitty" but they wont have any real understanding nor care about it. You can't sell someone by saying that X car has a shitty alternator that will give them problems when they dont really know (nor really care) what an alternator is.

[@emmadebeer8134]

One of my lost legion head canons is that the Emperor decided make one female primarch, to prove to Malcador that it was a bad idea. She and her legion had stable genes, unquestionable loyalty, and a respectable record suring the early days of the crusade, so the Emperor purged them out of pure spite, as their success proved he was wrong about something

[@ComiCBoY000]

I just wish they didnt shoe horn it in. Make any reason like "since the custodies have been so active after guilliman's return, their numbers slumped and they need to recruit from more sources."

[@KrakDuk]

@@ComiCBoY000 ya that’s fair. The implementation was a bit lazy and hamfisted

[@haseo1230]

@@KrakDuk my suggestion would have been to just made it a retcon, admit it was a retcon, and have the retcon be, the first born child of every enemy of the Emperor was taken and made into a custodes, and not all of them had first born sons, but was not a gender compatibility issue since the Emperor was not using geneseed to turn them into mini primarch clones, each custodes was a handcrafted master work with each transformation uniquely tailored to their DNA, so it did not matter whether or not they were male or female, either way they would be transformed and it would be an expensive process.

[@maxbolivar9089]

@@haseo1230 I'm kinda new to the whole Warhammer 40K lore but I saw an interview from Henry Cavill (Superman/The Witcher) on his production of the 40K series on Amazon. He plans to cancel the show due to Amazon having their "diversity quota" and Cavill disagrees with Amazon on having diversity because it affects the lore of the story he is directing. He has quoted many times that he is a fan of Warhammer 40K and his favorite faction is the Custodes, so he plans to stick true to the lore, and more specifically, the Custodes. He has said that they could not be women "due to male children of royal families being chosen to serve the Emperor of mankind" showing that he has done the research needed to fulfill his role as a producer for the series and the faction he supports. Amazon had hidden the fact that they were going to have their "diversity quota" fulfilled without Cavill's acknowledgment and approval of the decision. Even having someone who isn't fully integrated into the fanbase due to not having the time to become a true "fan", stand up to this kind of Retcon is surprising to me. He just wanted to fulfill his dreams and fantasies for, not just himself, but for the rest of the fans of those IPs that he supports.

[@haseo1230]

@@maxbolivar9089 And I really do appreciate that about him for a fan to stay true to canon, if only it was not the fact that GW has retcon canon several times before such as the Necrons turning from mindless terminators to full on space robot egyptians. All I am trying to say is that GW could have done their latest retcon better while still trying to retain some form of internal lore consistency and without trying to gaslight their fans to their faces like they were idiots.

[@reniorjd]

Honestly I like it better that they always existed. Gives more weight that the emperor saw them as humanity future.

[@kubastachowiak1089]

basically agree 99% with what you said one thing struck me as add from the redditors argument - "you are missing on the potential strong female aspirants" . The space marine recruits are 10 to 14 years old. WHAT KIND OF KIDS DO YOU HAVE AT YOUR SCHOOL??!?

[@You_From_Future]

What's the 1%?

[@KrakDuk]

Haha that’s a good point. But to be fair in 40k a fair bit of 14 year olds on some planets are probably already fighting some horrible monster lol. Thanks for watching the video!

[@kubastachowiak1089]

@@You_From_Future a wiggle room, since I'm not a girl and don't feel an inherit need for more female representation. When it's there, and it's done right, I don't care if the Cool Commissar that is leading the charge in this book is male, female, non-binary or a necron in disguise. If it's done right, it shouldn't really matter. I do like, when I'm surprised, as a viewer. "Oh this regiment is led by a hardass, no noes badass lady", but I don't NEED it like some people do >->

[@kubastachowiak1089]

@@KrakDuk great job as always

[@You_From_Future]

@@kubastachowiak1089 Fair enough but it wouldn't hurt to add more representation to real life tomboys even if they aren't custodes or space marines

[@tylerchadwell1267]

I'd like to address another, completely unrelated problem: the models. Recent custodes models have had a bit of a redesign, with the two most recent models -- the blade champion and shield captain -- being severely less-armored, with more cloth/leather elements, making their armor look like more medieval armor, instead of power armor. They've also removed the conical helmets, which have been a classic part of the custodes' design.

[@bulldozer8950]

I think this is especially a problem with the shield captain. If this was just the unique look of the blade champion it would probably be fine, but the shield captain should basically just be the same look as a custodes guard, but more important looking. And the shield captain also seems more egregious than the blade champion in how light his armor look, like he looks like he’s essentially got the spartan style armor of like some pieces of metal strapped to the front of his shins and nothing else on his legs. Its definitely a little concerning it looks like the direction they’re heading is a lot less armor on the banana boys

[@jarlathquinn2628]

Except most models don’t have the conical it’s only the wardens and gaurd and the cloth part has always been big

[@tylerchadwell1267]

@@jarlathquinn2628 I'd argue that the cone helmet is a pretty important part of their design because the majority of the custodes fall under the categories of guard or warden, but either way, my main problem is that the cloth is used to reduce the overall armor on the model. Having seen it in person, it doesn't look like cloth draped over top of armor; it looks like he's wrapped in cloth and is wearing individual plates, instead of a full suit. It gives them a more fantasy appearance, which isn't helped by the halberds and plumes. To be fair, the custodes' design is fairly fantasy adjacent, but in my opinion, the new model crosses that line a bit too much.

[@TheCoolerReaper]

No to mention the new shield captain is apparently squat sized

[@Magavynhigara]

Just my own thought. Could there be female custodes....eh maybe, but ive always felt that the sister of silence were their equivalent and balanced out the weaknesses that the golden boys had and i also feels it takes away from both by doing this. Im sure if they started slow and made very small comments about it over a few years and slowly introduced them i think this would of gone over smoother than what has happened now. I do agree that if your gonna retcon not only should it be neat it should have an impactful meaning and purpose. I think your audio definitely sounds better though im no expert in audio.

[@KrakDuk]

That seems to be the prevailing point of view for most people barring those on the extreme ends of things. Definitely think it could have been handled better. Thank you for watching! And cool, I’m still trying to figure out how to edit audio haha it’s hard for me to tell what sound good since I’ve never really audio edited before

[@woaddragon]

I disagree with the " Lever argument" of having female custodies somehow lowering the impact, lore, or role of the sister of Silence. However I will say, they certainly could had been introduced way, way better.

[@Kiyokoghurt]

I dont really see Sisters of Silence being the 'Girls' for the Custodes. Personally I see them more as how they cover the Custode's weakness to Psykers. Adding female Custodians would not diminish their role, nor their importance or style, as without them, the Custodes would be just as screwed vs any daemons or psykery.

[@negativezero8174]

Then let’s have Brothers of Silence and Misters of Battle. Those are all female orders, imagine if they said “men were always there” despite them being referred to as Sisterhood the entire time.

[@woaddragon]

@@negativezero8174 Male howling banshee. They exist since 3rd edition

[@Stanmanme]

My biggest gripe about it was the way they handled the retcon, however if we get a cool novel that will change. I do think what little stories we got about the Sisters of Silence will suffer unfortunately

[@KrakDuk]

Ya that’s totally fair, I think that’s what most people are concerned with. Hopefully they do something cool and interesting with it. I also hope sisters of silence continue to get lore, they’re very cool and have a different niche from custodes. Thanks for watching!

[@kusog3]

if this retcon was legit for lore purposes we can expect some cool stories about it, but if it was part of the DEI that's been invading the entertainment industry, I wouldn't be surprised it's just another lazy checkbox and pandering to specific group of people. It's pretty much an open secret now that studios from specific publishers has to abide by DEI, (even in the python coding space and other places, we have what we call Code of Conduct, so yeah, DEI is pretty much real).

[@Dr.Mlieko]

A pretty interesting argument against female Custodes I've heard was that people simply do not like the implication that the Emperor build himself a bunch of giant golden space concubines Also, I've heard the very reason this retcon was made was as a sort of compromise for Amazon, who originally wanted to include female Space Marines in the pitched 40K webseries, because apparently they thought the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, female Guardsmen, or female Assassins were not good enough to be included among the main cast of characters (apparently they wanted a female character who'd be super strong even without power armor, and they were too cowardly to add a female Ogryn)

[@karlwes6273]

1. The emperor had erda, also he had more important things to do than sex and the point of the 10,000 wasn’t just to have a bunch of male dude bros and another bunch golden sexdolls 2. Custodes are not space marines for the 1 millionth time 3. The only speculation to this was from a 4chan post which I wouldn’t really say is in good faith a a majority of Amazon’s adaptations have been good as they have people who care about the IPs working on them which is why for every rings of power there are fallouts, the boys, and invincibles which are all widely popular series with fallout probably being the best preforming and truest adaptation we’ve gotten yet Besides any decisions being made is only made through cavil which directly contradicts the idea that “cavil would leave the show” because of Amazon’s plan for female custodes and if anything if it were true the idea for female custodes would be his own as to avoid another Witcher he guaranteed hiself total creative control over the show meaning any decisions on how the show will go are made by him and him alone

[@Dr.Mlieko]

@@karlwes6273 That's the thing tho people are afraid of another Rings of Power and Witcher situation

[@karlwes6273]

@@Dr.Mlieko seeing as cavil has full control over the show and hes the single biggest nerd on earth, we’re gonna be fine

[@sbevil_kinevil2898]

Cavil was against female custodes, and amazon didn't want sisters of silence or sororitas

[@TheTrueHolyDarkness]

@@Dr.Mlieko Yeah, if this retcon happened in the mid-2000s, people would be like "uh, okay, I'm sure the motive is because the think it's cooler." But in this era of woke politics ruining everything, the motives behind _why_ one introduces females into a male only space is now in question. It seems the motive these days is to be preachy and obnoxious. They may as well introduce Jesus Christ into the setting in the most flamboyantly cringe-worthy holier-than-thou preachy possible way imaginable.

[@SlothIn3D]

Love the video! The lazy retcon aspect was the part that made me mad. It takes a lot to make a custodes and most custodes were killed in the webway. It could make sense that they recruited women to fill out the ranks wince they only recruit from tera and it took a few hundred years to get them on par with the original Custodes. But instead gw just went the lazy they always been there route. I do agree tho I hope we get more books and lore that follows our existing female factions.

[@KrakDuk]

Ya it was handled vertically strangely, the tweet especially seemed to rub people the wrong way. I just hope they do something interesting going forward Thank you for watching! Glad you enjoyed

[@JohnathanJWells]

This is done all the time in 40k lore. Half the time they introduce a new model it's just something that was always there and just not brought up before.

[@thefeatherbird_]

​@@JohnathanJWellsand it works because 40ks universe is massive and theres always room for othetwise unmentioned people and tech. It works for the custodes for the same reason. Almost no one mad about this can even name more than 3 custodes

[@Goblin_deez.]

1. You’re incredibly brave for giving your take on this topic 2. Both you animation and writing have hit another milestone, I’m not sure if there’s anything different but you’re pumping out professional tier content and it’s been like what? Three maybe four weeks???? Edit: oh and I would have messaged you personally again but I’m permanently banned from Reddit now 😢

[@KrakDuk]

Haha I appreciate the kind words, brave may be too generous I just felt a lot of the discussion around this skipped over some points I found interesting. I hope the videos not too polarizing, I was a bit disappointed that most discussion about the topic was just name calling and stuff like that so I wanted to share some interesting ideas about it. Thank you, I’m glad the videos feel more professional! I feel putting out vids helped me grow a lot faster than when the channel hadn’t launched I was just practicing. Plus I’ve gotten some great feedback from people. Hope to keep improving and making the videos as good as they can be👍 Thanks again for watching my videos!

[@Marinealver]

The first to call names was GW themselves.

[@zagman7789]

@@KrakDuk honestly i really loved this. there is so many angry videos about this and no nuanced ones. its like no one wants to touch it for risk of being labeled bad or a bigot or something. so thank you for having a well thought out opinion and expressing it. this is the first video i watched from you and i have to say love it. the art is fun and adorable which makes it all the funnier its for grimdark setting. while the script is well thought out, witty and informative. keep up the good work!!

[@pixeldude2156]

Always appreciate a chill, nuanced perspective! :)

[@starcow17]

It's not nuanced lmao

[@darkranger116]

Yeah from what i can remember, Custodes arnt like.. a sub-species of human, they're human bodies that are juiced to perfection. They're not cut up and grafted with a bunch of extra steps. They're not "rudimentary" analog-surgery cyborgs. They are human anatomy driven into genetic perfection. The process of making a space marine relies heavily on the aspirant having a flow of testosterone in their body to acclimate the surgical stress and organ implants, making the creation of a female space marine incredibly difficult to nigh impossible with horrifically excessive fatality rates. But thats not how a custodes is made. Which gives credence to female custodes actually existing somewhere.

[@a_lethe_ion]

It's so funny bc this description shows the writer dont know shit about human physiology. Getting more T as woman just gonna make you hairy, atrophy your breast, will likely stop monthly bleeding, increase in muscle growth, blood oxygenation, higher blood pressure. , droped voice, male pattern baldness if you're dad had it too etc. See female pro body builders. They're juiced. Also turns the clitoris into a tiny peen. Hormones are fascinating

[@vincentcrow6075]

In that case male custodian would absolutely stomp female one and given the amout of work and resources to make one it'll be a colossal waste. Why even do that? Except for woke points and sweet BlackRock money, of course.

[@Adelie_in_Grey]

​@@vincentcrow6075 That's assuming the differences between Males and Females are the same between Custodes as they are for us genetically-imperfect normal humans. If they're both genetically perfect, then I can't imagine the gap would exist, or would exist in a measurable quantity. Honestly, it probably wouldn't take that much genetic tampering to swap the roles if you really wanted to. But let's say that's true, and a Male Custodes would be better than a Female Custodes on most metrics: A Female Custodes would still be leagues above basically anyone else. Technique, Equipment, and Experience will in most cases out-perform physical attributes, cause most of the time you don't need 100% or even 50% of your physical potential. You only need to apply what you have effectively. A Female custodes surrounded by a chapter of space marines is still a "Custodes surrounded by fear and dead men." The scale of a Custodes' strength and capability is so ludicrously high, that the functional margin between the sexes would likely be negligible in comparison to anything that isn't near or above a custodes in power level. Which, if we're being honest with ourselves, is anyone GW wants. (Remember the Harlequin bullshit.)

[@darkranger116]

@@Adelie_in_Grey I dont think the gap would exist either tbh. As far as my rudimentary knowledge goes, muscle mass accumulation is heavily based around testosterone, and females simply dont have enough access to it in context to our current biological evolution. I think those limiters would be removed through the process of being Custodi-fied, with the female phenotype having full access to testosterone during development.

[@vincentcrow6075]

@@Adelie_in_Grey oh yeah, that's exactly why custodes retire if they aged to the point where they got slower by 0,001 second. Let's just make them slower and weaker from the start)

[@Addidvi]

Thank you for finally having a reasonable opinion on this! As a female fan of 40k, i dont want girl spacemarines and i do also think that having some big hot golden girlies further separates astartes from custodies like was said in the video.

[@wiegl8596]

If I remember correctly, the Guard is mostly men with some all female regiments while mixed regiments like the one Ciaphas Cain was attached to are a rarity.

[@stefschouwenaars9562]

in the guard there is only one gender: meatshield

[@Oppen1945]

That's probably old lore by this point. It feels more like most Guard Regiments are mixed and male only and some female only ones. The first Cain Novel came out like over 2 decades ago so I wouldn't take any world building from those at face value.

[@dreadnought4141]

While that is stated a lot, notice how most guard stories follow mixed regiments. Narratively mixed regiments are more interesting and while they may not be the majority, they are clearly a common occurrence.

[@wiegl8596]

@@sdyrt_09 Most people that can wield a lasgun semi competently can join the PDF while guardsmen are very good soldiers.

[@gergelyosztrogonacz9464]

Just the handling of it was kind of horrible, if GW was smart about it, they would've been introduced in The End and the Death novels

[@KrakDuk]

Yeah the handling is definitely my biggest issue with the retcon Anyways thank you for watching!

[@TheBenjiNebby]

Weren't they first hinted at in echos of eternity?

[@ce5122]

they were introduced in a book, just because you saw it from twitter doesn’t change that

[@gergelyosztrogonacz9464]

@@ce5122 which

[@ce5122]

@@gergelyosztrogonacz9464 it was in the adeptus custodes codex in a short story about a blood game

[@teamhren1000]

"The internet is basically fake" and everything you said after that is one of the most true things I've heard on this platform in a long time.

[@arionofotherworld]

Nice, you hit pretty much every point i've tried to make. Concerning the Custodes lore, they were never a bedrock faction like the Space marines, for over 2 decades they were just tough guards in leather pants with minimal lore that no one even noticed. Their lore got revamped into the Emperors genecrafted companions in the 2000's Horus Heresy books, and finally they were given their own codex back in 2017, so really it doesn't seem lore breaking that the Emperor or his geneticists might craft a female Custodian.

[@KrakDuk]

Thank you! I appreciate you watching Ya I love the leather pants custodes model lol. Thanks for the insight on the faction though I didn’t really know the time frame of their updates

[@qimirssss]

I actually really love your take on this because it isn’t as simple as “woman bad” or “retcons are bad” it’s actually very nuanced and I think you did a great job

[@AlexBermann]

Let us be honest: if there were female space marines, they would be indistinguishable from male space marines. And as unnecessary fat, the boobies would have to come off. That would be far from the most invasive part of making a space marine.

[@greatpurplecroctopus]

Never mind the numerous testosterone producing organs implanted into them. They'd just be transhuman transmen

[@jvniperrr]

Absolutely, and honestly, if they ever do that, that's how I want them to do it. Hulking superhuman murder machines basically no different from any other astartes aside from just a few slightly more feminine head molds and whatnot. No huge changes or anything, just an extra little cosmetic option for those who want it.

[@Briselance]

Unecessary fat? They go with being a woman.

[@jocylinfrancis930]

My personal headcanon: You can turn girls into space marines, but that literally doesn’t matter because space marines don’t have functional reproductive tracks or secondary sex characteristics Which would imply that space marines are actually genderless, but are referred to as male because of cultural reasons

[@subterraneandirtybomb]

@@jocylinfrancis930That is exactly how I see it too

[@schmian95]

You see what looks like a female Astartes. This is a lie. It is actually Alpharius.

[@TheFormidibleDan]

Part of why I love Fabius Bile as a character is because he lives on to fulfill the Emperor's fear. His life's work (at least according to the Fabius Bile Trilogy) is to create a new race of superhumans to supplant the Imperium; to be the new dominant life in the galaxy.

[@Courier6FNV]

The best way they could’ve done this would’ve been just doing it as a thing in the modern setting, before this we had constant mentions of the Custodes being men exclusive and referred to as such before this in novels such as the Horus Heresy, older stories, codexes, ETC. but just them saying “they ALWAYS had women they were just conveniently not ever mentioned” is a cheap cop out, so I’m against it, as one thing I hate above all else is forced and contrived writing that does nothing but hinder the series

[@Random15738]

Exactly, if they gave us an actual reason or story element as to why they were being added in, I feel that most people who were put off by the change wouldn’t have cared… at least that much. Instead they just made a retcon that a high schooler could write circles around. This is proof enough that the change was never meant to enrich the lore or move the overall plot forward, it was just meant to push an agenda. They could have done something really cool here with the lore… it’s a shame.

[@rajabalitaji5289]

@@Random15738I think people are thanking the twitter to seriously, like it’s one guy who runes the account and who is not even a writer or lore master, also I really dislike the idea of “changing/improving” custodes in modern 40K unlike the marines custodes are ment to be the best emps could do without the chaos god and the warp. There should not be a way of changing how they’re made without cheapening their lore way more that what femstodes doses. The retcon was probably the only way they could have gone without craping all over everything the custodes are. Just to add on, we rarely see custodes in HH or 40k and it’s not like they define every single ones gender when we see them so in retrospective femstodes could have existed without much problem.

[@rajabalitaji5289]

“Taking”

[@Random15738]

@@rajabalitaji5289 but see that’s the thing it is outlined pretty clearly that the stodes were only guys. They’re referred to as a brotherhood in codexes, as “these men” in a direct quote from the emperor, and they’ve only ever been referred to as “he”, “him”, and with male names. To say that femstodes have always existed and were just never shown because they were always in the background is an issue in and of itself. They should’ve just left it alone

[@traumadoc3883]

I really enjoy Space Marines being all male, it has a unique sense of male/brotherly, rivalry and bonds. Comparing it to other modern diverse faction ranges it now feels genuine and intentional rather than a range limitation. But I don't really mind female custodies especially if they are only few and I like when custodies are presented to be more than just better gold Space Marines, this creates a little degree of separation. Though female Space Marines being compromised with already having Sisters of Battle, or Custodies already having Sisters of Silence, feels like it creates redundancy for those female factions and diminishes there own unique lore.

[@KrakDuk]

Ya I pretty much agree with all your points. I do like how the change subtley kinda shows how the emperor gave more attention and care to his custodes as opposed to the marines

[@theinfestation4162]

@@KrakDuk I see Custodes debate more along the lines of the physical aspect of males and females. Males are physically stronger than females in bone density and muscle mass. Plus you need a source of testosterone to help make those muscles grow. You can create a far stronger male Custodies then a female version. In order to get a female to the same physical strength as a male would take far more resources to accomplish this. In lore it has been stated that they are a Brotherhood of Demigods. The 10k Custodes are also only from the noble houses of Terra. Noble families would willingly give up their sons for the honor of becoming a Custodes.

[@reverendofprimordialvents3985]

As a sisters of battle fan it always frustrates me when people call them female space marines because they serve entirely different purposes in both lore and gameplay and comparing them makes little sense Also I find the lack of female space marines would not be so bad if literally any of the female dominated branches had as much care and screen time put into them but they don’t primarily due to the idea that they are less powerful and thus less cool then the masculine symbol of the space marines Also there is nothing to the existence of being a women that should disqualify her from being a space marine women and men are structurally and in dna almost exactly the same and this is only talking about the avg women and men which we know space marine candidates are not. I imagine the transition process would pick similar traits in candidates not matter what and then completely eliminate the rest. In trans warhammer spaces there’s an idea that space marine itself is both an occupation and itself a new gender put in place and the he/him usage is just the same way boats get called she which I think is very interesting in a series which mostly brushes off gender because it doesn’t want to think about it. Something I also found reading the books is that even in the background non wartime sections women are by far the minority which I know just means the authors simply did not think about how it would look or thought that having a Strong Female Character makes up for that lack of background because sometimes when I read a book and women are like at most 10% of the characters I can only think things that have terrible implications for the setting that makes it hard for me to root for those trying to keep the status quo. Almost all explanations for why women can’t possibly be space marines almost entirely rely on limited notions of sex and what women are like the process involves growing to like 8ft and gaining just so many organs women aren’t inherently predisposed to reject that process because of lack of a dick it makes 0 sense unless you view gender as the unscientific notion of women and men have completely different everything and nothing can cross ever when current views is that women and men are broadly more the same then different and any individual woman or man will have many others of the opposite gender that they will have much more in common with then others of their own gender. It makes sense to me that there are female candidates they just get forcemasced when they transition because they now serve the patriarchal machine of the imperium And this is only from a cis perisex perspective Tldr; I understand for this one sorry: sisters of battle have never been treated in lore the same way as space marines and saying they’re just female space marines is disrespectful and the view that the process of creating a space marine is only for men involves a view of gender and sex thats incredibly limited

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

​@@reverendofprimordialvents3985sisters of battle aren't the flagship faction because they don't sell as well as space marines. Like it or not, 40k is primarily a dude hobby and so a brotherhood of enhanced super vikings, or Mongols, or knights etc... will always be more popular than space nuns. Your whole headcanon about space marine being a gender is just flat-out wrong. The genetic enhancements from Geneseed come specifically from the primarchs, who themselves derive from the emperor. Malcador suggested to the emperor that he put in extra work to make some primarchs female, but the emperor insisted on all of the primarchs being his sons. Not children, sons. Even if the capability for non-men to become space marines existed, it simply makes no logical sense. Geneseed requires testosterone to work with and change a space marines body, which is normally supplied by male puberty. To create a female space marine you would not only have to find the aspirants much younger to preemptively block puberty, you would then have to spend more testosterone to get them on the same level as a man. There are no female or trans or whatever new nonsense space marines because you are spending more time and effort to get less results.

[@theinfestation4162]

@@reverendofprimordialvents3985 Behold the actual quote from the Codex. "It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." To view gender and sex in a limited capacity is the core of 40k. You wanting the imperium to be inclusive goes against what 40k is. There is no Hope, there is no future, there is only pain and suffering. If you want a trans space marine, then play on the side of Chaos with Tzeentch or Slannesh. For only they care about your gender.

[@liamatlas3176]

My worst dilemna is choosing between shutting up annoying twitter sjw and having a 4 meter tall golden muscle mommy

[@claymore1555]

Seeing a lot of time differences between comments, so I'll toss my opinion in, too: 1. Gendered dynamic between Custodes and SoS: you touched on this, but i disagree with your assessment. The Astartes are the tip of the Imperium's Spear while SoB are the muscle of the church. They're reflections operating similarly for different authorities. Custodes and SoS are the exact opposite: they are two arms of the same authority, and both are required for the Talon as a whole. In combat, Custodes are the muscle, the big brother protecting little sister, while SoS counter warp threats, the little sister keeping big brother's head clear and in the fight. 2.The Emperor: As you said in this video, the Emperor is a man of planning and Science. The Custodes are the perfection of human form for the purpose of war. With both of these in mind, all Custodes would be male because the biological structure of men is best suited for the physical and mental requirements of war. Muscles structure and mass, chemical balance, bone and tendon density, etc. all result in men being able to sustained aggression and physical exertion. 3. Lore Elements: The Custodes are only referenced as male and a "Brotherhood of Demigods" throughout lore. Even the popular counter reference of golden warriors gathered beneath a landing craft refers to Emperor's Talon, meaning SoS and Custodes. -Conclusion: The change adds nothing, doesn't make sense to the setting or the Emperor's character in creating them, and was handled poorly to the point that I'm still blocked by GW for posting a summarized version of point 2.

[@Zergslayer_42069]

Agree with what you said, except that if a female would be compatible with becoming a custodes the emperor would definitely turn them into one but making female custodes 50/50 or some shit like that they definitely need to limit it, like you said he made them for war and males in general are more built towards that but there is exceptions to that

[@notme9816]

Thank you for being the smartestes, wisesestest and coolestests duk ever.

[@raptorimperium5757]

One other reason that the space marines are all male is because the physical trials you have to go through meam you have to be the top 0.5% I am a woman and i can accept the fact that the peak of female capabilities are not at the same level as men. There's a reason why there arent any women in most special forces and that's because women are not built for it One argument ive seen from arch is that geneseed is a valuable and rare resource, wasting that resource would be irresponsible

[@KrakDuk]

I think that’s a fair perspective. That one I can see getting excused as some planets just having naturally stronger people, something like catachan. So that alone wouldn’t be enough to discount female space marines for me, however it does work as an additional fluff reason. Anyways thank you for watching!

[@raptorimperium5757]

@@KrakDuk about female custodes though, I would've been fine with it if it was done 10-20 years ago. The reason why many people aren't happy with this is because it is a change done for outside political reasons Whilst in a vacuum it is fine, I do have worries about Blackrock and vanguard and the whole DEI thing because it led to the ruination of things I used to like Luke skywalker and han solo emasculated by rey. The hulk emasculated by she hulk, the way katara was handled in the new avatar show, captain marvel ETC Changing the custodes to have females in their ranks smacks of diversity and inclusivity pandering which is frankly insulting because I am not a mouth breathing ape who just goes "hee hoo has tits ima buy" As for representation, well frankly its a mostly male hobby so it'd be fine for there to be male only factions. Instead of changing the space marines or custodes, why isn't there build up for the sisters of silence? Sorry for slamming this thousand mile long comment / response. You just seem reasonable and I think I could have a civil discussion with you instead of being immediately called a neckbeard or a gender traitor

[@KrakDuk]

@@raptorimperium5757 tbh idrk about the meta factors/outside influences much since I only really care about the lore and in universe stuff so I can’t really speak on those aspects. I’m just hoping they do something interesting with the change. One of the writers has been wanting to add them for a while iirc so hopefully he has some cool plans

[@mahoganydoughnut6082]

@@KrakDuk yeah it's a good idea to avoid the outside politics at least if you value your mental stability. But the only time people mention male sisters of silence/battle is when they're called out for only wanting representation in the boys clubs.

[@raptorimperium5757]

@@KrakDuk my worry (and the worry of the counter-group) comes from the fact that these outside influences will continue and not stop, because they never stop (my examples being star wars, marvel movies and comics, indiana jones and apparently witcher went down that route) . they will keep on moving the goal post until eventually what we do like about warhammer becomes ruined as much as I respect ADB (the writer you are referring to) I do feel like this position is putting down the sisters of silence (kinda like what you said) and frankly it does smell of agenda I wish IRL politics wasn't involved, but that's the unfortuante thing. it has been FORCED into warhammer from what I can see. (by the way do you have a discord? just in case if you don't want me to fill your chat with this entire thing)

[@Grymbaldknight]

I respect your nuanced take, but literally all of the arguments you make against female Astartes also apply to female Custodes - aesthetic, thematic, lore, etc.

[@KrakDuk]

Hey thanks for watching. Sorry if I made any lore oversights. Perhaps it’s just that I’m more familiar with marines than custodes, but I never really picked up on the custodes being super monk/orderly knight-like like the astartes. Is that how they are portrayed? If so my bad, I haven’t really read any dedicated custodes book. I’m mainly into the guard. As for the lore reasons I mostly wanted to focus on the idea of preventing a trans human take over and geneseed issues, both of which I don’t think would really apply to the custodes unless I’m mistaken. Always happy to learn more tho, thanks for pointing these things out!

[@mandothemandalorian2392]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@KrakDukthey aren’t for the most part they take things from both monks and knights but not as much as the marines and females custodes would 100% work in lore and some small stuff but small stuff really doesn’t matter and since we in retrospect don’t see many of the custodes it’s not like we just missed them they just didn’t need to show up yet(in universe anything that needed a custodes we for the most part had important ones not that all aren’t important just too the story not so much)

[@rajabalitaji5289]

@@mandothemandalorian2392 I believe why so many people think the custodes have a brotherhood/knight motif stems from the time when custodes where basically just another marine legion in old lore. I believe it was written in old lore that if a space marine and custodes where to fight it would be an even battle becuse how similar they were, the only noticeable différents between old custodes and marines was that custodes played more defensively. Around 5-7 edition they began flushing out the custodes and retconning them so they were their own thing. Some player still think that the custodes are not much different from marines because they don’t bother keeping up with lore. Noticeably the custodes lost the “brotherhood” way before femstodes were a thing. Custodians don’t call each other brother like marines and it’s said that they fight lone wars in formation instead of fighting like a pack like most marines. Also the whole “Brother hood of demigods” is what preachers who don’t know anything call them they them selves don’t use the term. Just had to go on a short yap fest because so many baboons are losing their minds.

[@mandothemandalorian2392]

@@rajabalitaji5289yea I personally like the addition for that reason too many still thing custodes are gold flavor marines and while I get why some people dislike the retcon I just feel like it really doesn’t effect much we never see that many custodes it was always possible there were femstodes we just didn’t see em besides its cool and that’s what warhammer is all about

[@internetuser320]

@@KrakDukI mean personally I also am anti femspace marine and pro femstodes, because custodes is unique so it make sense while marine is a template unit that derive from a male primarch’s gene seed

[@master11211]

KrakDuk -Doesn't give us an OG hand drawn art for a single shot in the video and apologizes. My guy, I absolutely love the fact you draw all your own shit, it's awesome just for that aspect alone I watch your videos. But like most we are here for the discussion and thoughts rather then the artwork my dude. Keep doing you and don't apologize mate, love the content!

[@lunanyx8592]

I really liked this video. You presented this topic with a calm genuinity that isnt seen a lot on the internet. You stated and analysed the pros and cons for both sides and put forth constructive solutions rather than just falling into this one is good and the other is bad.

[@pulsegategaming]

I honestly thought your number one reason that there shouldn’t be female space marines was going to be that you hate the boobiez lol. In truth, I agree with you and what you said 100% I think that this wouldn’t even be an issue if it had happened a year ago, the Internet and the rest of the world are just riled up and this is an easy target as long as they don’t touch my Grey Knights, everything will be fine lol.

[@KrakDuk]

Oh well I do hate boobies ofc🤣 But yeah I definitely think this is just an easy and monetizable target lol. Seems things are getting blown out of proportion. GW seems to forget about gray knights often so they should be fine haha, poor gray knights fans having to use marines the size of guardsmen…

[@invidatauro8922]

Also want to say your take is a very good an balanced one. You are quickly becoming my favorite 40k tuber.

[@Paradukes]

I agree with some of your points, and the argument that The Emperor deliberately made the Astartes project male only as a failsafe is interesting, but honestly that would make it so much funnier if Cawl reveals that during the ten thousand years he spent making his Primaris marines, he realised it's dead easy to make female marines, just by fixing one little flaw in the genetic code. It would also make for some interesting conflicts when a bunch of high lords suddenly begin to worry that humanity is about to be replaced - sterility or not.

[@nw42]

Let’s be honest with ourselves: the real problem with 40k lore is that we haven’t chained Robert Rath and Nate Crowley to their desks and forced them to write Necron stories until they die.

[@alexclay6187]

I mean until 2016 women in our own country weren’t even allowed to be in combat jobs in the marine corps. So it makes sense that a franchise from the 80s wouldn’t have them.

[@boooyahhh4570]

I think they just need to give the current existing female based characters/factions/chapters/ legions etc etc more lore and spotlight is all, no need to add more, I love the sisters of battle, one of my favorites

[@cyrusmann5443]

As a person who dislikes the change, here is my answer to any retcon you dislike. L + everything is canon + it is written in the perspective of imperial recording + this game is just about your guys + you can just homebrew it away for the previous reasons + ratio

[@corvus_armatura7595]

Ok, so I guess everything I like is canon.

[@cyrusmann5443]

@@corvus_armatura7595 its warhammer, have fun with it. A perfect example is Malice, rn he is dubiously canon, but most folks treat him like he exists just because the idea is so interesting!

[@corvus_armatura7595]

@@cyrusmann5443I don't even like Vashtorr but I adore the idea of the Dark Mechanicus being their own thing and striving closer to the Interex rather than just stuffing demons inside daemon engines.

[@StarDevilRedrixsWhisper]

My personal headcanon for Female Custodes is they're actually Tzeentch Daemons who infiltrated the Golden Bois to Spy/Sabotage them (explaining the nerfs) Am I correct? Probably not in the eyes of GW, but since everything is canon, that's canon now

[@cyrusmann5443]

@StarDevilRedrixsWhisper that's a pretty common idea among people in this community. I said everything is canon because gw officially said it once. Have a nice day bro

[@jonathangibson9482]

Your Amazon art there is amazing! The posing is excellent.

[@TotalGamer-gv4mc]

finally, a man of reason with an explanation that I can respect. Even if I'm reluctant to accept female custodes, your lore-based logic is some of the best I've seen in these troubling times. 🖖

[@iamlegion3093]

Love your take on this man. I used to be “hate female custodes” crowd and admit I raged. But looking at it more, and hearing your side on the Astartes SM being male only though I agree. I’m all for the points you raised of, why doesn’t GW write more highly quality and just overall better stories involving either of the Sisters or the Guard. Just focused on a female character protagonist. Write a good character, as opposed to forcing a stupidly handled retcon. Either way, love you vid and your points you raised! Also you clearly hate boobies.

[@Martyr_of_vigilance]

Arminka Lesk is an awesome female character in the guard. She isn’t a lazily written Mary Sue. She barely got off Cadia in time, is psychologically traumatized by the battle of Cadia and it’s fall. Following her journey through the campaigns her regiment is engaged in. If your haven’t read them I highly recommend the Arminka Lesk books!

[@Zankoran]

My take in female custodes is that it fits with the non-war elements to their lore. People forget that unlike Astartes, Custodes are actually useful if ever there was not a war. The empreror designed them to be perfect examples of mostly normal humanity. They aren't unstable dumb tools like the Thunder Warriors or crude modified super soldiers like Astartes. The custodes are sculpted artworks of humanity designed to inspire as much as defend. Not only are their bodies shaped but their minds too. A Custodes is a genius level intellect with strength and speed at the peak if human limits. They are meant to be something humanity should aspire to be like and I think a female Custodes would be part if that. Unlike the theoretical space marine girl a lady Custodes would not have her femininity stripped from her. No. Un fact she'd be desugned with supermodel good looks and the figure of a fit and healthy woman. She would be the ideal a human woman should aspire to be in every way. Also remember the Custodes wore those stripper pillarmen outfits for a while so let that sink in.

[@thefeatherbird_]

Except the 2 female custodes that were mentioned were warriors. One of them won one of the blood games. I doubt any of them look like sexy supermodels

[@Zankoran]

@@thefeatherbird_ Of course they are. That is what Custodes are now. Also you can be a warrior and still be a beautiful woman.

[@marin8141]

​@@thefeatherbird_im pretty sure she didn't She got exposed by one of her subordinates believing she was a traitor and voxed a warning to her fellow custodies Thus she failed to execute the emperor with a bomb

[@Dragonheroadimus]

@@marin8141 to go a bit further, her idea isn’t unique since trying to teleport a bomb into the imperial palace was something that was anticipated during the Horus Heresy and there’s already a countermeasure for said instance.

[@marin8141]

@@Dragonheroadimus thats a fair point But i reckon she aint got many untested options after 10000 years of blood games

[@knifer-d3266]

Someone already said this in the comments but even before I saw that you gave me the vibe of Sam O’ Nellas style of videos. It’s quick to the point and you do very well at explaining the lore or current news of 40k in a way that engages new comers like myself that’s only been into warhammer either recently or for a couple years. I’m looking forward to your channels growth and after bench watching your videos I can’t wait to see the next.

[@mahoganydoughnut6082]

I mostly agree with your takes however, I really don't like the female custodes. Just like the space marines are very monastic the custodes aesthetic is one that I find lessened by female memebers. They are more expensive, complex and exclusive than marines are. sure, maybe to other people they can see anyone being a custodes but they are elite guards, soldiers made from the best of the best of the best. I wouldn't expect them to be 5'4 or obese or bucktoothed with a lisp and a lazy eye. I also don't find it to be a compromise, it's a pure concession. Imagine if you got a meal from McDonald's and your sibling who has their own meal also wants yours, they dont get everything just the hamburger you still have fries but you've received nothing. GW has shown they're willing to retcon an all male faction for no good reason, we have sisters of silence and yeah they aren't the exact same but that's a *GOOD* thing. This is just going to get the people who want to force in fem marines another stick to whack people with.

[@KrakDuk]

That’s fair, I took it as a compromise with the assumption they’re doing it to avoid female marines. I’m also less familiar with the custodes fandom than I am with the marines so perhaps I underestimated how much the gendered aspects played a role. Thanks for watching!

[@mahoganydoughnut6082]

@@KrakDuk it does very from person to person.

[@Random15738]

I agree with you here. The inclusion of female custodes isn’t necessarily a *bad* thing, it was just unnecessary and changes the flavor of custodes as a faction. They don’t have a “brother-sister” relationship with the SoS anymore, now they just feel detached. I liked the McDonald’s analogy. I also agree with your take on the lore going forward. It never ends when any space is given, they’re gonna keep pushing for female marines until they get em eventually, the female custodes isn’t going to be enough.

[@Kiyokoghurt]

Personally I like the change. I'd like to see your thoughts on this personal perspective. The Custodians im pretty sure were made to be an example and pinnacle for humanity, right? Each one is basically a living legend in deeds and actions, and the point the Emperor had with them were to be the leading ideal of what Humanity can do. They are not only some of the best fighting forces the Imperium has to offer, but also the peak that people aspire to. With that perspective I feel having both male and female Custodes make sense so all of humanity can look at these heroes and be inspired by them and pursue that pinnacle of perfection they represent. Having them only be made of males feels... Incomplete in regards for an example of Humanity. There are many male and female heroes and role models throughout history after all. And yeah Sisters of Silence exist but they are not only not Custodians, but also Nulls and Blanks, which literally extrude an aura of the exact opposite. They CAN'T do that even if they wanted to.

[@Random15738]

@@Kiyokoghurt I see your point and you’ve got a good one - peak human condition across all levels and all that. The thing is, custodes were never meant to be seen as heroes of the imperium (their secrecy speaks to that pretty well) like the space marines or certain guard members, or even as generally peak human beings. They were meant to be the guardians of the emperor and to achieve maximum human capabilities with the help of augmentations. It’s no secret that men are physically dominant (see historical records, sports, historical army compositions, etc.), that’s what they evolved to become. They’re taller, have denser muscle mass, heavier, are naturally more aggressive, and so on. these would be the ideal base for a guard, even if the guard is heavily augmented. If you start with a physically weaker and less aggressive base for a guard, which would be women here thanks to evolution, hormones, skeletal structure, muscle density, and so on, you get a weaker guard. Simple as. Since the custodes were meant to be the peak of humanity’s capacity for physical capability, it makes sense that they would only be men.

[@inkeldinky]

bro knows the fish speakers :o lifelong subscriber gained.

[@tigersympathiser2265]

I think it's hard to deny that this wasn't a virtue signal and that it is objectively pointless. They've explicitly been mentioned as only male before, and the road never goes both ways where someone would ask 'oh so I guess we need male sisters of silence now.'

[@Sara3346]

It's not like those didn't exist in lore, at least function wise as an elite army of the echlisiarchy, it's just they don't anymore because nobody wants to see the church have zero restraints again. You could make that kind of art without violating the canon to my understanding.

[@thefeatherbird_]

It was mentioned in 1 codex that custodes were drawn from noble sons. The very next codex stated that they are also taken from "other sources". I think its funny when people get mad about the lore when they dont know anything about it.

[@deadknight1402]

Brothers of Silence wouldn't be a bad adjustment, and indeed, everyone that I've seen in support of Female Custodians also wants Brothers of Silence. You assume wrong.

[@TheRealSerLagsAlot]

Don’t ever put men in the sisters. The only connecting theme of warhammer (that makes this the most unique lore) is that it’s a starwars Christianity. Sisters of battle are married to the emperor as are nuns to God. Sisters are literally nuns. The word abbess is in layman terms the head nun of a covenant

[@deadknight1402]

@TheRealSerLagsAlot Not... Precisely accurate. Yes, the Christian (more specifically Catholic) connections are there, though that's because that's the main inspiration of the Adeptus Ministorum. However, we know that in lore, the Imperial religion is incredibly varied and diverse, taking as endless of forms as there are worlds and cultures within the Imperium, usually through adaptation of local traditions and beliefs into the Imperial Cult (just like the syncretism which dominated early Catholicism, which was what facilitated Christianity's early spread amongst non-Christian peoples, by not outright replacing the local traditions, mythologies, and beliefs, but rather by integrating and reinterpreting them through a more Christian lens). As such, fans have long been more disappointed with the incredibly non-varied portrayals of the Ecclesiarchy, being so narrowly catholic _despite_ its lore rather than because of it. The Sisters of Battle more specifically have their origins as the Daughters of the Emperor (note: not married to the Emperor, but rather, as His Daughters), who were later uplifted by Goge Vandire into the wider Imperium as his personal bodyguards, known as the Brides of the Emperor (implying he also used them as concubines), before they were later shown the true nature of the Emperor by the Custodians, and executed Vandire, and during the reforms set in place by Sebastian Thor, were reorganized into the Adepta Sororitas. Note that for all their similarities to real world nuns, there are just as many (if not more) dissimilarities as well, such as notably, the lack of any vows of chastity forbidding them from having sex. Nuns don't have sex, whereas the Adepta Sororitas can, and probably do. Also see the Space Marines, who are essentially Sci Fi knight-monks, yet can just as often be rather noticeably un-knightly and un-monkly. The Christian elements of 40k are primarily stylistic and aesthetic, with hints of historical too, and are not practical, rhetorical, nor traditional. Also, who said anything about Sisters of Battle to begin with? The comment was referring to the Sisters of Silence, which are a completely separate entity from the Sisters of Battle and the wider Adepta Sororitas anyway, being more connected to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the Black Ships, and the Adeptus Custodes. Their history goes back much farther (all the way to Malcador and the Founding of the Imperium as opposed to the Age of Apostasy), and their responsibilities, function, and abilities are completely different too. The only similarities they have with the Sisters of Battle are their names, similar looking armour, and them being all-female (which even then, could easily change, and hell, probably will change now that the Custodes have anatomically female members, along with fem-custodes supporters also wanting Brothers of Silence).

[@justryan3934]

This how I feel. Thank you for promoting this perspective. I think it's superior.

[@NedFlanders612]

They just want to weasel in female space marines. But what's wrong with expanding on the Adepta Sororitas? I always found them to be more interesting than the Astartes to me. Mainly because they're not OP like a Space Marine. It adds scarcity to the story element(when a character has to face an army, but has one magazine left) When a group of Space Marines wipes out a battalion(about 1k personnel) of Orks for example; it's like "oh nice, as expected". It's bad-ass, but expected. But if a sister(and they're usually alone in stories) with a rag group of misfits wipes out the same Ork battalion without plot armor and uses intelligence along with the surroundings it's like "oh holy shit, she did it"

[@millanoire]

Right but why would those be gender specific experiences

[@SaintTay]

@millanoire This person isn’t saying that these should be gender specific, they’re outlying the “against all odds” trope by pointing out the differences of trans-human monsters destroying shit, versus a lightly armored un -augmented warrior doing it and actually winning. Not sure if you just typed this just because and didn’t comprehend what you read.. This person is just saying that they think sisters of battle are cooler because they do the same shit Space Marines do, but they’re baseline humans. I personally think that that makes the story much, MUCH more engaging. This has nothing to do with “gender specifics”. There are stories of regular men and women throughout the lore doing the same thing.

[@bleesev2]

Would you feel the same if say, the sisters of silence turned out to be much stronger than the custodes, and the power gap between the two were similar to the power gap between astartes and sisters of battle. Would that make you like the custodes more or would that just make you upset? More generally, would you accept a force of OP females coupled with a force of less OP males?

[@millanoire]

@@bleesev2 This is exactly what I think the issue is. People can circlejerk the sisters for being underdogs but they still just want the females to be underdogs.

[@the843hokage5]

Bro I love your videos! They are literally the best way to learn about warhammer on the fly

[@golemwarrior9923]

Fun fact: apparently there once was female space Marines, but their models sold like shit so GW scraped the models and put lore as to why they don't exist. I might be wrong I heard it from one KZbinr but it does sound like something GW would do. The End Times spring to mind.

[@Kiyokoghurt]

Yeah the models looked like shit so they sold like shit. Imagine if they looked better and sold well. The 40k universe would certainly look different.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

​@@Kiyokoghurtthis was in the 80s, the nerd demographic back then was almost exclusively dudes in basements who were relentlessly mocked by the women in their life. No shit they wanted to play as super-powered men and not super-powered women.

[@libertyprime2013]

The lore was also not as well defined at the time, but that was part of it. It was also probably because it was just easier to make male only marines. At one point in time half Eldar marines were a thing… so yeah… times have changed

[@cheesemarine]

It was a proto sister actually, the metal tab says sister and they were sold as 'female adventurers'. Nor that it would matter anyway because rogue trader lore is so diff it's basically a different game.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

@Horus-j3f you not having social skills is a different thing, nerdy hobbies have become more mainstream over time

[@chad872]

You are my favorite 40k yt channel this was an excellent video

[@velvet6923]

real warhammer 40k fans can't be on reddit or twitter because they are too busy reading, painting or playing

[@Datruuth77]

Man your take is spot on! Thanks for the video and letting us hear your opinion

[@Drawing_John_Doe]

It makes no sense, a female custodes would be starting out at a disadvantage to male ones. It would make sense to start out with an aspirant who, biologically, would grow up to be bigger, stronger, and faster than others. To even the playing field, the female aspirant would need much more resources and alterations to even match a male aspirant in the first place. As the criteria for a custodes is already so steep, clearly male recruits will always be chosen.

[@weberman173]

the biggest difference between male and female in terms of strength, muscle mass, and height is testosterone and some other hormones. The emperor being the basicaly perfect genetic engineer would not really have a lot of problems fixing those "pesky hormones" problem without much cost if any. given its likely the Males already get half of those treatments anyway do get to the point where they are. the male Custodes are already so far removed from what a "regular" male is, that the change from a female template wouldnt be much more drastic in comparision

[@Excalibagel]

This is exactly the video I’ve been looking for thank god

[@classified9583]

1:33 my stance on that was always congratulations you have invented sisters of battle

[@thealbinorhinodino]

This is well thought out and reasonable 👍

[@pottasium7117]

the issue is not really the idea, its how it was retconned

[@CantoniaCustoms]

I just love the GW tweet saying "everything is canon" So OK can I have my damn space rats now?

[@magikarp2063]

No what the biggest issue is WHY it was retconned. When you start making changes for that particular reason your fictional universe will start being dictated by current day politics and ideologies and will stop being cool escapism that it is now. It will turn into the same generic crap like so many other things.

[@starcow17]

The issue is also the idea. Big E literally is known for taking the practical course. Doing 2x the work on a woman just to get her to the point of a male is not practical. It is stupid.

[@davidtrainor9569]

You summed up all my thoughts on this! I think GW introduced women Custodes in the worst way possible to drum up conversation, the idea itself makes perfect sense lore-wise.

[@AshleyHope4More]

I am still personally a female space marine fan, but I have to admit you made some good points I hadn't heard before that gave me some pause. I do think female custodes is a nice compromise and ordered some custom heads for my warden and guards 💙

[@BrandonVonOtt]

Great video! The lamp shading was a little thick, but I did like the overall vibe. I felt like you really nailed the heart of the issues, which was the handling of the retcon and the fears of making female astartes.

[@maxfernando1504]

My issue is that this was solely for Amazon for their new show because they wanted female space marines but compromised with female custodes because they thought the backlash wouldn't be as bad and then tried to gaslight all the fans by saying yeah there has always been female custodes and just changed every wiki and post ever made about them to fit this new "lore" it wasn't a decision made for lore or story reasons it was because a massive corporation told them to so they did then disrespected the fan base by trying to gaslight us then call us misogynists to try and defend themselves, if they would have made a book introducing them like cawl was working with their geneseed or whatever and made new female custodes that would have been fine with me and most of the backlash wouldn't have happened, but it's just the complete disrespect that makes me so mad and made me stop buying warhammer and cancel my whplus subscription, I can't in good faith continue to support a company that views me as a moron and a number on a sheet of paper, ive spent literally almost 10k dollars on various warhammer minis books subscriptions etc and now im stopping because of this blatant disrespect

[@venatrix3483]

I have a cold so now I’m just sitting here in a blanket binge watching your videos.

[@MinkxiTes]

Not sure anymore what book it was from (maybe Master of mankind?) But Malcador said something of the line to Emp "we probably should have made them daughters, not sons". This could be seen as a hint that it was/is possible regarding Primarchs at least.

[@aleon7774]

I did not care for it because I like that the sister of silence and the custodians mirror men and women in real life. Both are formidable separately, but together they form a nearly unstoppable force, covering each other's weaknesses.

[@lordvolland1930]

But where are brothers of silence? Like, there's no explanation why there are no male in sisters of silence

[@Namefist11]

The explanation is there's plenty of men saturating near all of the other factions. Making brothers of silence would just water SoS down.

[@fatfish2066]

This fellow is so intellectual

[@oldomen3788]

My favorite faction is sister of battle. My main argument against female astartes is more because, if the direction is to be more diverse and inclusive to women, then they will continue promote female space marines just like space marines are already their poste boys, and likely will not write as much on sisters of battle. I want more factions to get more stories over the poster boy space marines. Particularly the sisters of battle. If GW wants to be more diverse and inclusive to women, then they should just write a strong character. Who happens to be a female. NOT, a "strong female character"

[@Culexus101]

They could have Guilliman repeal the Decree Passive and turn the Sisters into a mixed sex fighting force. Codex: Armies of the Ecclesiarchy. That's the logical end point of treating single sex armies as problematic. The sad thing is it would probably have made both the Sisters of Battle and the Sisters of Silence more popular if they had never been all female fighting forces to begin with.

[@oldomen3788]

@@Culexus101 I would have thought part of the charm and attraction to them is that they are a full army of nuns with guns Similarly the space marines a full super soldier army of men. I feel both gain some attraction via the monolithic army structure.

[@Culexus101]

@oldomen3788 me too, but a lot of people seem to see single sex fighting forces as 'problematic', even in a setting where being 'problematic' is like 99% of the charm.

[@oldomen3788]

@@Culexus101 lol. Yeah. But I'd be sure to be against a brother of battle much like a female astartes

[@vulpus]

I appreciate this video, you have been one of only two thus far that has managed make the idea of female custodes palatable and I am relieved to hear you're thoughts regarding space marines too. I think it would be a crying shame if female space marines were a thing because the sisters of battle/silence would be sidelined harder than they already are. We need more stories from the Soraritas.

[@jvas8991]

Getting 40k opinions on twitter is like getting a straight answer from an Alpha legion marine. Nice to see someone talk about this without losing their humanity in the process.

[@mikesurlygentlemanwalton]

While I do t really care about male or female space marines, but GW used to have female space marines. This would have been around 88'-89' in the Rouge Trader edition (i.e the first rule set). However, they soon got rid on female space marines by the 2nd edition. Also did you know that Horus used to just be a General in the imperium, thus was before the concept of Primarchs a d the works used to have a rule that could have their pants fall down during a shooting phase. 40k used to be funny before all the grim dark and grim durp. I have no issues with the lore as it is now, but they lost something when they took the humor out. So in all female banana girls is fine.

[@jfkmedic]

Great job explaining this touchy subject.

[@DarkGott15]

I don't like it because it was not included because lore, or because it's makes sense, it was included because of real world politics.

[@rave6294]

I can’t wait for the brothers of sisterhood! And even more excited for the sisters of brotherhood!

[@soffren]

I'm of the personal opinion that Female Custodes make sense. It wouldn't be a 50/50 split, but if they're really the best of humanity with the highest potential taken from birth, then you'd definitely have a few females in the bunch. Female Space Marines is an entirely different topic, but we'll burn that bridge when we get there. What's actually pissed me off this past week, is how many "culture war tourists" are pretending to care for clicks. Most can't even pronounce "adeptus" let alone "Custodes" and have never bought a model or a codex, and have never consumed the lore. It's just heartbreaking that this has to be what pushed our hobby into the mainstream news. I'm worried soon we'll look just like Marvel and Star Wars fans; fighting a culture war that was never ours to begin with.

[@libertyprime2013]

Ditto

[@aaronmontgomery2055]

Sure but you have to admit how they did it was lazy and not interesting at all. Can you imagine if they had been forced to turn sisters of silence into custodies because they were losing to many and resources had gotten to thin. Just something more than their no lube approach

[@FarremShamist]

A lot of longtime fans I know barely know how to pronounce Custodes and Adeptus lmao But honestly, I think the split would be pretty close to 50/50, aside from what could mostly be a cultural reason There is no reason that, when you're taking someone from birth and changing them completely and utterly, that you'd find better stock in men. Men only get stronger after puberty, before then, it's pretty much equal. It's kinda the same reason that I feel female astartes isn't all that far off either conceptually, really the main complaint of not having female astartes is the lack of representation in the actual media being produced, kinda just relegated to the sidelines. Sisters always playing second fiddle to someone, etc. The amount of novels of space marines is just way too many in comparison to the other factions tbh. That's always been the operative problem.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

@@aaronmontgomery2055 "Sure but you have to admit how they did it was lazy and not interesting at all?" They were introduces the exact same way most retcons are: through a codex story. Custodes have also not been around on the tabletop for a while, and their lore presence was minuscule until 7th edition. All they did before then was stand around and make rare appearances, and that's me being generous, and even now, they have a tiny amount of characters. The only reason some people find it strange is because to most people, custodes are just big, golden space marines.

[@aaronmontgomery2055]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 Are we saying GW does their retcons well? Lets compare to "good" retcons like the dwarves. At least they gave us lore and reason. I simply want GW to give me good reasons for things instead of their lazy approach live with the rogal dorn or even the primaris. I can at least accept the primaris as they gave me some type of lore and reason but this and the rogal dorn are just lazy.

[@shinkiro403]

Hi! First of all, thank you for the level-headedness of your elucubrations, I think it's a fair and valid way to hold your position (the "marines don't need more reasons to keep shifting focus from other already neglected factions" argument I admit I found it a good point). That said I'd like to make some counterpoints: 1. Tbf, space marines are intrinsically built to not substitute humanity, whether there were female ones or not, so basically nothing would change on that department 2. I think Cawl can be used to do something about femmarines to justify em in lore, as even if there was some magi-genetical caveat designed by the Emperor himself preventing it, I'd say it's probably not a worse ordeal than dangerously fitting even more extra organs inside a body that already has a ton of non-natural and sometimes reduntant ones (also, it's not farfetched to think he may have been working on this at the same time as Primaris, with less interest of course considering Primaris are instead a full-fledged and nominally war-changing upgrade); besides, technically, Primaris are already heresy by supposed imperial standard, as any piece of tech designed after the HH (among which basically all Primaris weapon variants), so I think Cawl could find it but an arbitrary technicality, if he had the chance 3. Space marines, for better or worse, are indeed a focal (selling?) point of 40k's narration, so I personally could accept a massive difference in lore representation with other factions if the latter got themselves their needed share of stories and lore expansions (SoS REALLY need em as we all know), and introducing female Astartes could be a big drive for further contrast and maybe hostility between chapters: some may gladly accept them, some reluctantly, other new or minor ones may be even going to the length of not coming to imperial space to avoid receiving female reinforcements because "HERESY!", ending up having their numbers heavily dwindle and/or even resorting to, ironically, corrupted techniques to keep their ranks filled. Damn, many of us complain the narrative doesn't advance, this could be a stepping stone, followed of course by many other steps, towards an imperial schism, having a big group of chapters/imp.factions becoming an independent and maybe more pragmatic force (more open to compromises with xeno factions to the point of reintroducing a "faction friendliness chart" like in some older edition), while the uber-loyalists would declare them renegades, try to keep the crumbling Imperium together and thus leaning more on the original grimdark cartoonishly totalitarian archetype. Obviously just throwing ideas around, I have no actual position on how much to advance the plot of the setting or of individual factions, and I can live without femmarines no matter. Sorry for the essay, I hope it wasn't too tedious if you read. Thank you again regardless, have a good one!

[@TemplarBlack.]

Cool video, finally a take from someone that actually know the lore

[@KrakDuk]

Thank you! Admittedly I’m not super familiar with custodes lore, but I know a fair bit about the imperium in general so I thought the points in the video were more compelling than what I saw getting tossed around online.

[@addison_v_ertisement1678]

What about Luetin?

[@foolwise4703]

Really appreciate your balanced and well-rounded opinion!

[@FezTheMoose]

Me, who like muscle mommy but also loves the Emperor:Is for me? My emperor, we could get married on a campaign. We could take back the galaxy and get married in your name I mean nah, female custodian weird 👀

[@0ne0fmany]

I'm not really a part of the hardcore fanbase, but a mere casual enjoyer, so personally I really don't care. These aren't my opinions but rather this is what I saw most voiced as their main concerns with the femstodes: - Much like how in the Old testament when Cain got cursed, it wasn't because he killed Abel but rather having the audacity to lie to God about it, when GW was met with criticism, they said "There were always female custodians." And THAT'S when the shit really hit the fans. - The wider context. The issue is not just Warhammer 40K introducing female custodians, but it's a like a plague of replacing many beloved male characters of many beloved IPs, and even that isn't the issue, but rather that this is almost always paired with a drop of quality in the IP. A harbinger of enshitification. - Fans of the Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence are worried that their already neglected factions will now be even more neglected. That instead of expanding the lore on already beloved female characters, GW is just pandering. - That this is obvious Amazon/Investor influence for the coming TV show, that's now cancelled(Maybe? I don't even know at this point)

[@Arcademan09]

As a newcomer into the series, the biggest issue I have is how half hearted this seemed to have been rolled out, didn't they just throw this out on a tweet? Also I'm pretty sure they only did this because of Amazon for the TV show

[@cyber4053]

TBH, this is kinda normal for GW. Randomly there will be big lore drops in just random places in the codexes.

[@MrAaronchanel]

I fall asleep to your videos. Very soothing.

[@loganbass8257]

Honestly, I don't care about female custodies or female space marines, I'm just wondering why they wouldn't use something that's already established to have females in them, just because it'd make everyone happy, you get your female representation without making the fans mad that you're changing the lore.

[@mynameisvisutinnadda]

Shouldn't matter who is under those armors, i mean, everyone gets roided up beyond recognition anyway

[@Dontgetluck123]

Me personally i dont like that they made female custards. But i also dont really care like i have my opinions but in the end who really cares. But i always thought that female custards were sisters of silence they were both made for a specific reason custodians being for the more heavy lifting im traditional combat and sisters of silence for everything psycer related Edit: i know i am late to the video but i also wanted to say its good to hear you speak on this even tho people wont like it. my first engagement with the topic was through the adric podcast where everyone who was against female custodes was labeled an incel that is afraid of women in power so yeah it sure is a tough topic in the Community rn

[@Ninlarr]

I laughed out loud at the commissar at 6:30

[@cyanideinmycereal1077]

I'd like to personally thank GW for the female custodes retcon, it has saved me a lot of money.

[@MiguelAlarconMusic]

Please make more videos about the chapters. I’m getting into 40k and I love the lore of the chapters.

[@tylerbryanhead]

I've never looked at the Grim Dark setting and thought "Gee, you know what would deeply add to and fit the theme and overall atmosphere of the Imperium? Progressive politics and gender equality." "I don't feel represented by the factions" I would hope not, they are meant to be all horrible in their own ways. The Imperium feeds processed human flesh and some of its slave citizens work in conditions that'd make Auschwitz look like Juvie (pun intended) and does far wprse abuses. Even the Tau resemble North Korean oppression more than they do western governments. You're supposed to role play, just writing yourself in isn't role-playing.

[@invidatauro8922]

I had a few issues with it. Unlike female space marines, which I fundamentally disagree with, I'm much more okay with female custodes, provided GW didn't do what they did an just go "yeah, it was always like this, screw you"

[@bethelgeiser8748]

Custodes in the early editions of their codexes are implied to have been taken from the nubers of firstborn sons of nobles on holy terra. It was implied that emperor chose only sons for that mission. However The process of custodes creation was inhereted by the high lords, and they POTENTIALLY could make female Custodian... But it would defy the logic of any draft, war or conflict. It is because the process of creating a custodian has such a mortality rate, that only 1 custodian is produced a YEAR given the attempts on their creation happen every year. Noone in their right mind would put women through such a procces, because each woman of purest noble bloodline dead is god knows how many sons and daughters she might give birth to - lost. And therefore it is outright an outrageous loss of potential custodians!

[@Sara3346]

Do you have a source for the once a year claim? I've never heard or seen that one before.

[@bethelgeiser8748]

@@Sara3346 the source is now lost to the depths of youtube, i doubt i can find the same video i watched about it. The only assumption i can make is that the video's author took information from some sort of codex, or amplified mortality rates of space marine creation.

[@kernit79]

It's nice to finally see someone presenting his views with calm and reasonable arguments. That said, I think female Custodes could be borderline ok if they were introduced in a thoughtful and interesting way, but for now I'm against it mainly because it takes away from other all female factions and groups that are already interesting and could use some more attention, and also yeah it was handled very poorly. I also strongly disagree with the argument I heard that the sisters of silence are a problem because they don't talk. Even if they don't talk they must have an efficient way to comunicate between themselves and with the Custodes, they just need a good idea and they could make the SoS even more interesting. One thing I would add is that there's plenty more room for female representation in the Inquisition, the Mechanicus, the Tau, the Drukari, the Necrons, the Chaos cultists and the Imperial Navy, to name a few. I also find really silly that there's this race to push female characters where in my opinion they just don't belong, and I would think the same if the push was to have male only Inquisitiors or male Sisters of Battle etc. In my opinion the only priority should be making good stories with interesting characters.