First Principles and Second Sight, with Iain McGilchrist & Alastair McIntosh

These two much-admired figures are expert generalists and are often thought of as Scottish sages. This was the first time they had the opportunity to speak together in person.
They have many points of shared interest and experience. They are both islanders, with Alastair hailing from Lewis, and Iain living on Skye. They are also both scientifically trained philosophers and have a keen appreciation for what science helpfully discloses, but they also recognise that the limits of science are not the limits of the world.
They are both what might be called ‘first principles’ thinkers, interested in the deep roots of reality or metaphysics, manifest in curiosity about ontology (what exists), epistemology (what and how we know), axiology (what is of value), and cosmology (what is the overarching story of the universe).
There are some noteworthy differences too. Iain’s background is as a literary academic, (neuro)psychiatrist, and scholarly writer, while Alastair has deep knowledge of our ecological predicament, stories to tell about pilgrimages and partnerships, and a rich history of activism and community building, particularly through land reform. This ‘same but different’ combination is lays the ground for a generative conversation.
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[@festivalonearth]

This was inspiring, thank you all! So many gems here. I wrote this one down though as it feels so true! “The challenge of our times is to take in the suffering of the world that we are all participants in creating and to use it as a wake up call to build community and be open to the creation of beauty through us” - Alastair McIntosh

[@shanedefeo6881]

If everybody watched a couple of these a week the world would definitely become a better place.Unfortunately not many like to think and be challenged by constructive discourse.

[@gordonmeeks2447]

Thank you. As a Scots victim of the diaspora living in Maine, I loved my visits to both Skye and Lewis a decade ago. Iain and Alastair seem like long lost uncles. I will buy and read their books. Love this conversation.

[@westcoastkelpie]

Great conversation - and thank you for it. My mother and grandmother had the sight, as do both my daughter and myself. We were taught from our first breath that this is both a gift, and normal - and to never allow the veneer of what I would now call the dominant 'reductive ontology' to interfere with what is deeper and true at the core of being. My grandchildren are taught the same. Both my daughter and I have seen and experienced those globes of light come to be with us for brief periods. In my case, what has come with them is a wonderful feeling and sense of deep joy, connection, a slowing of the way we usually know time, and all senses heightened. I recall one day in summer I was out splitting and stacking wood for winter, and in that rhythmic focused activity, the mind stilled, breathing deep the scent of the wood, and the forest, suddenly they were all around me, light dancing in the air, and that glorious connection. My daughter was away up north visiting another island, camping with her then 2-year old son, who fell suddenly quite ill. She witnessed then what she described as a cluster of these glowing orbs (which she knew from previous visits) arrive and gather all around the tent where he was. Called to the tent, she discovered his fever had become dangerously high, and an urgency to immediately take him off island to a hospital, which she did. This was near a decade past now. The times I receive strong messages, conversing with people who are here and not, if you take my meaning - even people I have not (yet) met - I often wish they were more clear. I expect that clarity comes with how and to what one attends - as is the case with everything. 🙂 I often think that my many years of university study have dulled my true capacity for engagement. In these times of aggressive development and the dominant culture seeing every bit of lands and waters as "standing reserve", and financial 'investment', I have been hearing and feeling the distress of the land, the creatures, and the voices in the forest as the forest goes down - and those voices are fading too. I am quite sure that we shut down our connection because of the deep distress we can only feel as both interconnected and witness, even as doing what we can to take action on behalf of. My daughter said that the last time she visited that same island to the north, she was not visited by the 'orbs', and there was a silence that to one who hears the voices of the forest is a stark absence. Twenty years ago her friend's daughter on visiting us here turned to her mother and announced, delighted, "mommy, you didn't tell me there would be voices in the forest..." And now these voices are stilled, place by place. My question is, where have they gone?

[@rebeccaclark8470]

What a nourishing conversation! Thank you Jonathan, Iain, and Alastair. I'm reminded of a brief email exchange I had with Alastair about 10 years ago. He signed off with, "You’re just one of the faerie folk along the way …. I beg your Presbyterian pardon … the angels on the path (the difference between the two is only one of altitude) who springs up and then vanishes back into the turning of the Great Wheel." ☸

[@alastairmcintosh]

Wow. You caught me on the ball that day! 😉

[@allwillbe1]

😄💚

[@Entertainment-jv8xw]

I never know what to say in these comments, I always just want to say how much I apricate the speakers because it's truly inspiring to hear them talk.

[@gedofgont1006]

Yes, I really apricot these speakers too. 🥴🫢

[@anhumblemessengerofthelawo3858]

Hahahahafa

[@rg533able]

Two inspirational thinkers and authors. I have really enjoyed listening to and reading Iains work recently. I recently read the Master and his Emisary . It only clicked as I watched that I had read Alasdairs work Soil and Soul a good few years ago. Two authors who are re-enchanting the world. Thank you for this.

[@user-uz5bd6no8q]

How wonderful to see and hear 2 scots talking about fairies. I experienced them in Scotland some years ago. Much love to you both❤❤❤

[@scientifico]

I'm almost at tears with the story of the Whippet Sheba and the moments that followed. There are things beyond our philosophies and as we push into these unknown realms, humility would serve us far more than our shallow "knowing".

[@gmk2222]

I would like to spend eternity with such souls. God bless.

[@alastairmcintosh]

But ... but ... is that condeming Iain to eternity with me; and if so, will the whisky see us through?

[@gmk2222]

@@alastairmcintosh an adventure to behold. Safe travels x

[@poetryinmotion8112]

History is so important

[@ChrisOgunlowo]

This has been a blessing. Enjoyed the conversation.

[@dtcarrick]

Nice one, guv'nors. You're both diamond geezers and we loves it. That chinwag was the bee's knees. 'Ave a merry ol' Christmas.

[@tonygodden1006]

Thank you both for sharing some of your life learnings. Left hemisphere dominance in our world is such a problem, Iain has articulated this perfectly in this talk and in his books . We can all relate this to our everyday interactions, Iain has helped me understand what is really going on here. Thank you Iain.

[@katjadu1]

This is such a beautiful conversation, and has special meaning to me for a number of reasons. Thank you so much. 🎇🙏

[@gb4375]

Thank you to the algorithm fairies for bringing me this conversation!! I grew up with Brownies and conversations of spells, yet against hardworking and frugal immigrants, and church goers. Such a pleasure to hear this conversation!

[@gmk2222]

I loved the “un-mute to say bye” it was epic. Souls made for heaven, all and everyone. Congrats.

[@user-kv7bs7ug8u]

The poem is breathtakingly beautiful. I have affinity for the ocean.

[@udo9999]

Thanks for sharing this.

[@misery-lovescompany1599]

Wonderous chat between these folks!

[@liborsionko]

Thrilling and helpful 👍

[@PlumGustave]

Absolutely charming!

[@nellieosullivan5449]

I so thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you for an inspiring and entertaining conversation.

[@YANHAP1]

25:52 "Remember Me and I will Remember you".

[@aodhfinn]

Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and the fairies that did seem like musical notes to dance along paths of invisible light leading to doors that the magic water is able to open .( The whiskey ,😊) .inside ,cosy and warm while outside I imagine the winters wind is tossed and turned by seawave and wooded shore there in Skye! ...Nollaig Shona , Happy Christmas and Happy New year to you both .

[@eveszokolai8939]

Please enable transcription if possible. Wonderful conversation! Thank you ever so much.

[@alastairmcintosh]

Hi Eve, there is actually a transcipt, but you have to hunt for it. On my setup, if you click "more" to see more details, an option should pop up underneath where you can get the transcript. It's auto generated and so has errors and probably a few laughs when it gets tangled in itself, but looks reasonably good to me. Enjoy!

[@salwaneleyland5874]

A talaska good job achariek

[@DreamingOfABetterDay]

❤

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Refreshing, appreciate both their hearts being invested in this world, today. Peace Rowland is loosing his mind with all the jumping around by Alistair, awesome fun. Thank you all Iian, Alistair, and Rowland for sharing your time and work, this is a little gold.

[@alastairmcintosh]

I hadn’t appreciated how 13:17 my spring-loaded chair would jump my right hemisphere out of its left hemisphere box.

[@williamjmccartan8879]

@@alastairmcintosh It was a poignant and lively discussion that I'm happy to have been able to be apart of, if only as a spectator, thank you for your reply Alistair, all the best to you and your family, peace

[@earthstick]

On occasion I believe I have had second sight. But it only occurs when I am doing something that is mentally challenging, and for a prolonged period. Could it be that in everyday life we are not challenged, and therefore do not excercise our mind. And when we do excercise our mind, then the analytical process just isn't enough to solve the problem, so we must recruit the other methods that the mind has, and therefore we develop a second sight.

[@alheidis]

Imagination, as well as any other human sentiments, has to be in service of the whole, not being “selfish”. As a Mahayana student I have learned that the separate self is a delusion. When we understand that we are completely one with the universe, we will not use our imagination in an evil way.

[@martynrobinson5399]

Yea eavesdropping on interesting minds is the pleasure of our age! Could you please provide the proper english title of Sorley’s poem about the sloping rock and tumultuous sea. Ta.,

[@gmk2222]

Philokalia😢🎉❤

[@missh1774]

You can't put a maid on equal ground with a Mother and place them above a Queen, without the woodland folk of those fairy kinds of lore. It simply would not be possible. Thank you Alastair and Iian. I see well wishes for the coming soltice is well underway 🎊 We look forward to another year of these warm celebrations!

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Lovely sentiment

[@missh1774]

@@williamjmccartan8879 Thank you William🎄Wishing you a Merry Christmas too ✨

[@groundedkiwi]

Longest Day here in NZ

[@kittysawtelle5552]

The absolutely most darling right hemispheric intellectual discussion by 2 dominantly left brainers who are ultra sensitive!❤️❤️❤️🐾

[@earthstick]

I'm glad Ian has spoken out about wind turbines. Something I particuarly dislike is offshore turbines that you can see from the shore. Once you could look out to sea and see no works of man, only untouched nature. Now you look out and you see these vertical stalks poking out of the sea, like bars in a prison cell. Everywhere you look, you are surrounded by mans folly.

[@nancypulley]

So absolutely delightful‼️ one of the Top - if not the pinnacle - ❤of Iain conversation with a like kind intellect and here it is with Alastair Definitely worth two watching / listening Thank you so much for this one -plus lots of great references they shared was a hoot ( need to post a list 🤔😃)

[@PlumGustave]

They are so delightful!

[@elioxman8496]

What the brandy lovers are to do? Thank you guys!

[@sunshinepadawan]

Tell dude #1 the camera is on !!!! Good lord

[@peterweston1356]

i would appreciate feedback. Iain’s said that his partners second sight is real and is sustained by attending to it. Not specifically her, but in general. That resonated deeply. Could it be that the Emissary stays empowered and enabled as most of what it attends to is easily available in the world AND can be ‘picked up and put down’ , is encoded in systems, protocols, governance, laws etc. and more and more in IT networks. Yet while the Master gets all that the Emissary is about, it can only sustain mastery through personal attention and introspection of lived experiences, love, faith, musical appreciation etc. in my experience this requires more effort and sustained attention. For example I cannot design a system to augment the love I have for my son, I need to attend to that, as does he, not necessarily on a daily basis but regularly. On the other hand I haven’t studied chemistry for 45 years, but could pick it up pretty quickly if I chose to Compounding the problem is that the very systems developed and deployed are grinding away relentlessly at reducing the capacity for attending. So, rebalancing the mind and society will perhaps only happen when we find ways of engaging folk in attention developing practices, for example , prayer, meditation, reading and contemplating good poetry, listening to and contemplating the impact of great music. All things that are out of reach of many folk. Did you read this to the end 😉❤️. If so I would value anyone offering a response. If you have read the Mater and his Emissary and The Matter With Things feel free to use that content,

[@jared4034]

we live in a society that maximizes the 'pick-up, put-down' mentality. Personally, I think such a mentality should be restrained in respect of epistemic uncertainty given the attendance that our instincts require when it comes to raising a son for example. We've received comforts through advancements in technology. Part of the concern here is the context of climate change and the unsustainable degradation of the substrait we depend upon through the abuse of what we determine are mere 'resources' or innate matter. These resources play a part in our development and may be more than they seem. It's been my experience that adaption to significant need increases the capacity for attending. I imagine that this is core to the christian gospel. Giving all you have to the poor and paying attention to the community is a way of attendance. When you have nothing, you see the suffering of others and it provides perspective. When you're poor and desperate, the color of life takes on a different hue.

[@alastairmcintosh]

@@jared4034 Yes Jared, that sense of "attending" is at the heart of Matthew's parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish "fiesty lassies" (as I call the "virgins"). And note there how you cannot do another's spiritual work for them, the foolish had to go and look for their own oil.

[@alastairmcintosh]

Peter, my replies show as being sent but then some seem to disappear. I think I replied to this at the time. I think that second sight shows most strongly when people are close to one another in community, and social fragmentation and technology dissipates that.

[@jared4034]

⁠@@alastairmcintoshsometimes i wonder if the christ had learned this lesson through similar circumstances.

[@jared4034]

⁠@@alastairmcintoshwhat comes to mind is a moment of t.s. eliot's third of his four quartets. in the dry salvages, or 'les troi sauvages', where 'divinity' as it appears through experience has a sort of sequence. I won't share the entire third, and i don't dare to interpret it in order to possibly meet the standards of the discussion. But, i think eliot appeals to an intimate experience with a historical situation. "We had the experience but missed the meaning, And approach to the meaning restores the experience In a different form, beyond any meaning We can assign to happiness. I have said before That the past experience revived in the meaning Is not the experience of one life only But of many generations-not forgetting Something that is probably quite ineffable: The backward look behind the assurance Of recorded history, the backward half-look Over the shoulder, towards the primitive terror." Also, what is identified as 'oil' might be restricted by cultural ideals. Not to get back into marcuse

[@RobertJohnson-gj3cl]

Left brain dysfunction would seem to be part of our human situation, but to get to the dysfunctional core requires an understanding of the mind body split. Dr. McGilchrist is limited by the very thinking which he so insightfully grasps. Understanding the mind body split can only be truly grasped with the awareness of the higher mind or intuitive mind .

[@yednekachewgeremew1886]

Guys cheers should be for Inquisition of existence

[@jared4034]

There's some talk about isolation and industry's role in the displacement of the individual from the events and relationships that define the individual but no mention of the frankfurt school. Is Marcuse unfamiliar or too sensitive to mention? His work with 'one-dimensional man' would lay out in part a historical context for the increasing divide between the seer and the seen.

[@alastairmcintosh]

Hi Jared, I think the Frankfurt School and Marcuse are of great importance in understanding our current times. I don't go into them in detail in my work, but I reference both in my book Soil and Soul, in passages such as: "What is sometimes called ‘the system’, or, more explicitly, ‘the Domination System’,16 then, is an emergent property of ordinary human failings and commonplace darkness. The ‘monster’ is created bit by bit by individuals, but its emergent properties transcend us all. This, perhaps, is what our forebears meant by ‘the Devil’. There need be no great mystery, superstition or even anything of the supernatural about it. The flaws in our nature that allow such emergence - that, indeed, make it inevitable - are so commonplace as to pass normally unremarked. Theologians of a more antiquated age called these human tendencies ‘original sin’. Today we might see in it what Hannah Arendt, in her study of Nazi war crimes, called ‘the banality of evil’17 - the horror in which we are all unwittingly or only half-wittingly caught up as a matter of everyday experience. Indeed, it is awareness of this very banality that has caused vocabulary like ‘evil’ to lose much of its meaning in the modern age. The expression seems too extreme for something that is, when reduced to its component parts, so very ordinary. But while I've read Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality (mindful of, but not convinced by the criticisms of it), It is some 30 years since I held a copy of One Dimensional Man and then, only to read parts. Is there a chapter or a section to which you could point me about the divide between the seer and the seen? I am also writing about that in my forthcoming essay in a special issue of Dark Mountain Journal on "the land". Had there been time with Iain, I would have liked to have put it to him that his right/left hemisphere division, expressed as neurological reality, is more importantly understood also as metaphor for how the world and our experience of it is, beyound just the neurology. It gives tangible expression to that Caledonian Antisyzygy I spoke of, to the innner/outer life split, and in my DM essay I am using the Loch Lomond song's distinction between the High Road (practicality) and Low Road (the spirit road of the dead, but also, of the inner and creative life) as a metaphor. And I use the word "metaphor" here in a cultural and theological context where as I see it, metaphor can express some deep truths more clearly than reality: thus my positing of RH/LH as metaphor. I won't be able to reply to all the comments here but I hope this might cover some of the others so far. You can find more of my writing and broadcasts on these issues at www.AlastairMcIntosh.com. Go well, and all who comment here. Alastair.

[@jared4034]

Thank you for responding, Alistair. I believe that the metaphors used in archaic languages have been mythologized and leveraged for entertainment or other purposes to the point of near extinction of their intended meaning. I think it's possible that writers of earlier ages didn't anticipate the acceleration of the information ecosystem and the availability of these metaphors to be interpreted differently across cultural boundaries without the historical context from which they were derived. I mean that culture was much more insular in the past and translation likely wasn't the greatest priority for a premodern civilization. Thank you for sharing an excerpt from Soil and Soul. I've only just begun the Master and his Emissary. 'The system' for me has been defined through the poetry of Allen Ginsberg as 'the Moloch'. I'm not a student of Kabbalah, so I couldn't say if it's the devil or not according to that tradition. I'm more of a Gary Snyder fan. Devil or not, if the momentum is unrestrained we may not reach the pasture at all. Just like how "evil" loses iits meaning, much else is at stake, Marcuse offers. It's been 10 years since I've held my copy of 'one-dimensional man'. I might've pawned it in a time of need. But, if i remember the gist, it's about our interacting with emergent technological substrates and their consequences that we aren't as a species conditioned to engage with. The main thrust of the study being that we are at risk of being shaped by the tech we develop and as a consequence losing part of our identities as inheritors of a complex system. I couldn't point you to a particular chapter without fully dedicating my time. But i can say as someone who did work as a manufacturer on assembly lines for some years, it very much spoke to me. I don't know about modern Scotland or England, but in the States there is very much a labor class who check into labor in the morning and are alienated from any creative or relational process in their daily experience. What is a seer who sees nothing but industrial moving parts? What reference is there? I've only read Adorno's lectures on aesthetics (which were mostly over my head). I wasn't aware that he wrote about the authoritarian personality. I'm interested but fearful. Erich fromm of the frankfurt school speculated at length about the potential consequences of the post-industrial age from a psychoanalytical angle. He includes thoughts about authoritarian personalities as well and where they might be derived from in context. The 'seer' in my original comment was admittedly a double-entendre. But if we all share the same human resource, it isn't farfetched to say we're all capable of any resource of our being given the right time. I also thought of the 'seer' being in part the right hemisphere. But, if the elements of our imagination are constructed or at least coerced what purpose does sight serve

[@peterweston1356]

I’m not sure but I believe McGilchrist is not a fan of Marcuse. I am on tentative ground here but I think he lumps Foucault and the like together as relativists, which I think is not consistent with his world view. I could be way off course, it came from one of the 6000 videos he has now done available on KZbin, not in his written work. So I offer this tentatively and in good faith.

[@jared4034]

@@peterweston1356I wouldn't consider myself a relativist, whether Marcuse was one or not I don't know. Regardless, it shouldn't hinder entirely or to the greater extent the validity of a social critique. I've only read Foucault's 'madness and civilization', and found it compelling.

[@peterweston1356]

@@jared4034 thanks for you comment, I have no dog in this fight( not really a fight even, but I’m sure you know the expression) , I know very little about either of these folk. just offering some comment that might enlighten people as to McGilchrist’s reluctance to include any of their work in either The Matter With Things or The Master and his Emissary. As I understand it the two philosophers are very popular in academic circles and with various other intellectuals so I assume they have had worthy things to say to those communities.

[@mikegregory222]

Be EL's aBove ... EL is TeN.... SaY ....... Bee eyes above.. a straw lite! G !! ❤️

[@geoffreydawson5430]

23:11 Alaistair begins opening up to bizarre phenomenons. I do not want to make a mountain out of a molehill as I know people will say 'Oh it is the angel number' or something along those lines. I looked down at this time stamp when he mentioned the first word. I see 1111 on an almost daily basis. Plus have had many bizarre experiences. Might be a stretch but 23:11 is 1111 if I think through a 24-hour clock. Why do I want to share this on a screen with no one and everyone using my left hemisphere? Side reflection: (mountain out of a molehill. Interesting image. I once had a meditation teacher who would tell us to imagine digging a hole in front of us whilst in a sitting posture. You feel your body rise and correct itself as the mind and body relax. By always rejecting those thoughts that told you to move. So you end up like a molehill balanced like a pyramid.)

[@alastairmcintosh]

I was digging holes (for myself!) throughout the whole conversation, Geoffrey, until by the end I dropped into one, and so returned into the Faerie Hill.

[@salwaneleyland5874]

Imagination is a humans ability to excersise ones deepest desires. Keeping it in mind that a head of ones minds seas i chats to myself. Its my subconsius chatting to myself imagines that twistalstwistleserves ones mind the genius of a fairies bridge TT a54.

[@salwaneleyland5874]

39:27 podtome Stanley LivingStone i presume. Nah little lord fontinelrobroys.

[@TheVeganVicar]

FIRST! 🎉

[@user-fo3fo9pl3f]

Agood conversation. A shame to hear the nimbyism when a real issue arises like a wind turbine where Iain lives. The awe and wonder of seeing human engineering and nature working symbiotically is amazing. Iain I am sure flies and drives around using energy in others local environment.

[@salwaneleyland5874]

Slamgivah

[@davidpeet3863]

I can’t scarcely fault a word here ( forgive his academic style) x “Religion emerges out of the lived life of man; it is man as person who in some way is struck by the absolute experientially, who is open in such a way that the absolute or the Holy appears in that openness. What is understood as established religion is grounded in personal experience, an experience which is radically other than modes of experience unique to science or philosophy. The Holy has appeared in and through some men. One can only deny this fact or affirm it, and, of course, the consequences of the decision are far reaching. But it must be emphasized that the effort on the part of Scheler is not to justify or to ground some pious wish. The men who claim to have encountered the Holy have concretized that claim with their own astonishing lives. One need only think of persons like Christ or Buddha or Francis of Assisi to cite outstanding exemplars. Hence, to speak of the Holy, salvation, the kingdom of God is not mystification, but an effort to include “everything” as it is. It has been said that the disclosure which happens in man as person is a process of realization directed either towards definitive constraint, death, or towards salvation, freedom or be-ing. Taking the latter alternative as the only meaningful alternative open to man because in following it man realizes himself as he is most fully, namely, as person, one can say, as Scheler does, that absolute being (durch sich Seiendes) comprehends and realizes itself directly in and through man. As a tension between basic drive and spirit man as person is a unique center (Teilzentrum) of absolute being, which itself is manifest as basic drive and spirit, that is, in man as person19. To the extent that man as person realizes essences and values unique to the sphere of spirit, and commits himself to this sphere and to the direction of its realization, to that extent Scheler concludes that man as person co-operates in bringing about or giving rise to the becoming or appearing of “God” (deitas), which is to say, that God emerges out of the primordial Ground of Being as the expanding interpenetration of basic drive and spirit. Speaking in this way may be misleading, but it need mean no more than what has already been said, that disclosure is the kingdom of God establishing itself in and through man. It could be said that basic drive and spirit are absolute in the sense that they constitute attributes of manifest absolute being or the Ground of Being, which transcends man while constituting him.” - Max Scheler (1874-1928) Centennial Essays😂

[@salwaneleyland5874]

Oh! Hinthe woe hows thine clans dews be of a golden grift douth the clouds nots drift on yonders times. Oh tilli all aska tilaskia ashens rithes to sized cuts in down sands tides the gillarkon glen fiddles sticks grouse asquark black rittle tittles tats blue haigues eye of to ewes shiraides. But a wiers in dumfrises my lands. A stran rah up a85 seas and round the white horn 2 shilling heavy bobin eyes just walkers johnny i hears teachers pets aye weebells blues nobels off. Fairies aa millen sands eye razers clampits chouders. St Andrews on east 1875 apiscamollogies east a nothirs tipsies taliska house the siers y aye ewes n grimshadows aye mull of kin tires mcmillans was roman garison to loch fines. Lomand walters stuarts to plaid red walkers. Aberdeen lol bovis bevus buts heads highlands stonaways clans dews invernes. 4 n 20 virgins came up and went down 2 bob heavy less. Buried on skylarks mores.

[@rooruffneck]

Well put.

[@ceceliablair9177]

Music comes from the Land of the Dead.

[@peterweston1356]

Too much ego for truth to be revealed today.