[TF2] Just What Even Is A Subclass?

I apologize in advance for the terrible Trolldier clips, anyway here's Fart of the Subclass.
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[@SawedOffLaser]

I think the "demoknight is the only subclass" argument makes sense on one major point: it is the only subclass deliberately made by Valve themselves.

[@Nuggette]

Only real difference between Trolldier and Demoknight is that the latter gets MvM unique upgrades

[@diegorafaelgaio2767]

Trolldier was never intended by Valve

[@MormonDude]

Idk I mean valve made a pretty deliberate decision to release the gunslinger, which is a mainstay of any modern battle engie.

[@IsYeaYesyup]

huntsman gaming

[@SerbianKnifeFight]

​@@MormonDude *mainstay of the old battle engie With people like uncledane, I think it's pretty clear that battle engie is a mindset. You don't need the gunslinger to battle engie, it's just a playstyle

[@sidknoop6381]

To me, "subclasses" are just... evolved callouts/descriptors Saying 'demonight on flank' is a lot easier then saying 'demoman with shield and sword and boots on flank', and conveys a lot more (very important) information then 'demoman on flank' 'Trolldier tutorial' is a lot easier then 'guide to using rocket jumper and market gardener' Etc, etc

[@azurekurgan4099]

so basically, a playstyle that warrants the subclass descriptor more or less means a play style that shows up often enough, with enough differences in how you would want to approach fighting them as opposed to another playstyle.

[@sidknoop6381]

@@azurekurgan4099 Y'know what, that's a really good way to describe it, thanks~!

[@marzipancutter8144]

Yes. Like all words, when it is useful to have a word for something, we come up with one. It doesn't even really matter if you can clearly define it as long as people have a general idea what you mean.

[@orange0666]

This is honestly a better definition

[@alexanderticonuwu7591]

By this logic, won't Uncle Dane Wannabe be a subclass? Not trying to nitpick, just a funny thought I had

[@grfrjiglstan]

I'd just have to fall back on the old pornography definition style of "I couldn't define it for you, but I know it when I see it." If I look at a player and think, "Oh, that's a Fat Scout" or "Pyroshark in the sewers" before I think the words Heavy or Pyro, I know I'm looking at a subclass.

[@richardlionerheart1945]

that's missing the point of definition

[@Isabelle-mp8rk]

@@richardlionerheart1945 well there are things that don't really fit neatly into a definition so not really, take the classic example of chairs, there really isn't a definition of chair that would include all chairs and exclude all non chairs but you know it's a chair when you see it

[@JaxontheOkay]

this also is why in my eyes, a pybro isn't really a subclass. it's just a role pyro is already meant to play, just with more dedication. you wouldn't say "pybro guarding the engie nest" you'd just say it was a pyro. you WOULD say "watch the skies, there's a trolldier around"

[@-RandomStranger-]

Thats only because that playstyle has become so popuplar you instantly recognize it. If those playstyles didnt have titles you'd just say "pyro with NA in the sewers" or "heavy without a sandvich" or even just "heavy here". Meanwhile if you fought a demoknight you would see that he looks seriously different than a normal demo and notice how hes trying to melee you instead of using his explosives launchers

[@marzipancutter8144]

@@richardlionerheart1945 That's because definitions all break down at a certain level, and that's okay. We invented language as a loose approximation to describe reality, but it can't ever be exact. It is better to accept that and move on than dwell on definitions for classes having to be "exact". It's better to ask if they're useful. And if people mostly know what you mean when you say it, that is useful.

[@blikthepro972]

my take is that demoknight having weapons designed specifically for him and his playstyle should just bring him up to actual full class, with hybrid knight being the subclass. and if you really think about it, it fits. demoman has 2 primaries, so having 2 classes is just continuing the pattern

[@fedweezy4976]

Exactly, demoknight has different ehp (different HP if you use eyelander), speed, range, counters, and goals from demoknight, why the hell is it just considered a subclass.

[@sooperdude22]

"When everyone's a subclass, *_no one is."_*

[@to-ma-to4370]

I say a sub class is when the way you normally deal with that class is different. How you deal with soldiers is different from how you deal with trolldiers.

[@kiddo6393]

My theory is, this long into the game, if you can tell what someone means when they say a subclass name, it's a subclass. You know what a battle engie is, you know what a trolldier is. If you need to specify the difference in playstyle, it's not a subclass.

[@MullyWhizz]

I know everyone and their mother is commenting their own idea of a subclass but heres how ive always thought of it. A subclass term is used for anyone whose way of playing a class deviates so much from standard that they require distinct counterplay. Hence the need to divide them at all. A demoknight/trolldier obviously require distinct counterplay from their more standard variants, same with hybridknight. A huntman sniper's counterplay is very distinct from every other sniper, battle engie, fat scout, etc etc. The obvious issue with this definition is what exactly warrants distinct counterplay. Obviously any weapon change could discern itself as distinct counterplay, since "distinct" is subjective. But I like this definition since it also clarifies why we divide into subclasses at all, since telling your teammate that theres a "fat scout" flanking is very different from a regular heavy flanking.

[@eddyheaddrascal1858]

Nearly all of them are mere playstyle changes

[@EffeminateCowardlyVillain]

I feel like a subclass is just a mindset. You think it's a subclass? Sure! Hell, even the actual more official subclasses like say Demoknight are a mindset. You have to go in it with a mindset of how youre playing that character to play it right, full Demoknight just makes the mindset guidelines more rigid and Hybrid Knight is an example of how that still doesnt matter. edit: this is touched on in the video later and I agree on the classification thing completely

[@rico1346]

This reminds me of cloud watching, the guy next to you points and says "that looks like (so and so)!" while you disagree; since a cloud can be ever changing and most people do not share the same opinion on how it looks, wouldn't it be better to just accept what is instead of defining it? (Just reread my own comment, this is certainly a hot take heh)

[@mrmintymayhem]

The huntsman sniper and trolldier both fall under the same roof

[@mrmintymayhem]

Trolldier doesnt need any weapons. I can rocket jump around with stock and only use my stock shovel to deal damage and the only thing separating me from being a "subclass" is my choice of weaponry. Troll does isn't a subclass, it's just a fucking loadout.

[@mrmintymayhem]

I fucking hate autocorrect

[@RandomFurry07]

​​@@mrmintymayhemI think it's just takin away the main damage dealer, which is considered a TROLLDIER here, since your only reliable means of damage, is a damn shovel But with a damage dealer (yes, even the Liberty Launcher), it's like a Hybridknight typa thing And the fact the trolldier is a thing since the Market Gardener is a thing, it's all about that guaranteed crit

[@mrmintymayhem]

@@RandomFurry07 so if i use the airborne armaments set then i'm playing hybrid trolldier eh?

[@mrmintymayhem]

@@RandomFurry07 im going off the description of subclass that the wiki uses but twisting it a bit so that gunspy and fat scout fit in since with both of them there really is no way for them to replace their primary damage dealers with something else to allow for the revolver or shotgun to flourish

[@ThatWolfArrow]

>expected a video on subclasses >got a video on taxonomy >still very entertained Tis a simple life, for a fish enjoyer.

[@DaxSchaffer]

🐟

[@gabriel_linf]

The part with the plot twist of the demoknight analysis that was actually a trolldier analysis was really funny, and also, the editing is now better than ever; i can sense some real improvement here, Fish! Great job.

[@TheLegend2T]

I like how Fishstick’s solution for the definition of “subclass” is the exact same as jan Misali’s solution for the definition of “paradox”

[@kuwait_grips1312]

Wich is, in a certain way, Russel solution to its own paradox: introduce specifications to the set, new levels, so the contradiction resolves

[@somnvm37]

for those who don't know about the tree part what we call "trees" do not have the same origin. Trees many are completely unrelated plants, it's if we called butterflies and birds and bats exactly the same thing just because they fly. All that so-called trees have in common are their traits and appeariance, but not same genetic origin.

[@SnakeD1ck]

I didn't stay in school long enough to learn about the genetics of trees but from what I learned the primary way of determining weather a plant was a tree or shrub was if it went through secondary growth and had wood

[@marzipancutter8144]

@@SnakeD1ck But attributes like multiple stages of growth and wood can evolve convergently. And as far as I understand, the problem is that it apparently did, a lot.

[@tehesprite502]

@@marzipancutter8144 Convergent evolution is only useful to geneticists. To most it's just trees and more trees.

[@scoutgaming737]

Apples are more closely related to kentucky blue grass than they are to avocadoes

[@maigue5077]

from the start of the video i knew taxonomy would come at some point, we've been having this conversation for decades

[@Eli_Mizuki]

Maybe the real subclass is the friends we made along the way

[@calebkelly8221]

Teamwork, the one true subclass!

[@notsobadbones]

Is this some kind of Team Fortress?..

[@apealican]

tf2

[@v.e.g.athesentientintellig2333]

​@@notsobadbones We are Team Fortress (2).

[@killmario2092]

If by "friends", you mean all these men I killed shooting canon balls, then yes

[@windhelmguard5295]

the way i see it you enter the realm of subclass when you can no longer fill the same roles as the stock loadout. pybro can do everything stock pyro can do perfectly well, he can set enemies on fire, extinguishes team mates, has crazy close range DPS, he reflects projectiles, clears stickies, checks for spies. phlog pyro is more of a sub class, since the phlog disables air blast entirely, there are now things that stock pyro does that you can't.

[@The_Rising_Dragon]

I think Dragon Pyro is a bigger subclass than Phlog Pyro, although I would classify both under Agro Pyro!

[@PolarGuy]

A Pyro who uses a Dragon's Fury is also more of a sub class as that weapon is technically not a flamethrower, actually requires some aim (no more w+m1) and is much less efficient at spy checking and at airblasting (because the Dragon's Fury has -50% repressurization rate on Alt-Fire, you would rather switch to the Manmelter in order to extinguish teammates)

[@Fernsaur]

​@@PolarGuyThe dragon's fury is even considered as a fireball shooter in game!

[@ungezoockt]

@@PolarGuy Yes since the DF is completly diffrent. The weapons shoots projectiles instead of particles. Yes the DF can be reflected and destroyed by the Short circuit.

[@leithaziz2716]

Under that logic, would Trolldier no longer be a subclass? Unless you opt to use the rocket launcher with no damage, a Trolldier is a Soldier with all the same capabilities but changes gameplan to focus on melee, same as Pybros (who instead focus on playing support for Engineers and spychecking).

[@slysamuel5902]

You’re right, gun spy isn’t a subclass It’s a *_DOMCLASS_*

[@giahuynguyenkim6389]

Ah, a man of culture

[@maigue5077]

porn addicted

[@nickosman1556]

It's right in the sense I always dom every Demoknight in the battlefield

[@AshleysBrother]

"Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself"

[@ramdises]

I'd love to a subclass😊

[@Indioh]

Remember that Uncle Dane teached us that Battle Engie is a mindset too, like Pybro

[@StickyTrap]

*taught

[@Zhasper]

​@@StickyTrap🤓🤓🤓

[@mr.rocketjumpernoisdorock9529]

@@StickyTrap maybe he is joking idk but laughed lol

[@Indioh]

🤓

[@regalblade8171]

​@RomchiqUncle Dane literally says that Battle Engi is a mindset

[@xaisann]

i think its a class that likes subway

[@TheYulverick]

“How do you top your subclass?”

[@ZeitInstants]

I wonder how nobody is talking about the penis scout subclass in minute 6:25

[@dustytheaverage5794]

I was but you stole my comment

[@ZeitInstants]

@@dustytheaverage5794 i'm speed

[@H4nd1ess]

wtf is penis scout?

[@calebkelly8221]

The art of the art of the subclass

[@gryphonbotha1880]

BEHOLD, a subclass!

[@Epicmonk117]

_Sprays you with a water pistol_ Go away, Diogenes.

[@SirPembertonS.Crevalius]

Demoknight TF2 always seemed to me to be the gold standard of what a subclass is. Not much else really changes a class around as much as that, but simple changes in mindset or weapon selection's can, and people simply do what seems fun and/or silly to sorta match that level of different intended gameplay. Holiday punch pootis pows only? Sure, why not. Charge shot only Cow-Mangler soldiers? No one's stopping you. Reconaissance Cloak & Dagger spy? Go for it. Run & Gun Widowmaker Engi? Some folks love it. It's all so unorthodox and is what makes TF2 so great.

[@SirPembertonS.Crevalius]

@TheBalkanJoker Scrodulous

[@SirPembertonS.Crevalius]

@TheBalkanJoker Just a made up word & name simply. ^^

[@SirPembertonS.Crevalius]

@TheBalkanJoker Maybe! Hehe, it was just a made up, abbreviated name that I never gave much thought. I may change it, likely not though.

[@starmaker75]

Tf2 works on "if it sounds stupid, but if works, then it not stupid".

[@pepekovallin]

I swear to god I thought you were gonna pull a "demoknight in tf2 always seemed like a strange case to me"

[@secretterminal2179]

I love how this has shades of Taxonomy in general. Like what even is a species man Edit: TAXONOMY MENTIONED

[@BabyGhast4]

Okay, not to be that gal but if you want an actual definition for a species: a population of an organism that cannot produce fertile offspring with others of a different population. This is why dog breeds are called “breeds” and not “species” while wolves are a different “species”. It is also the reason why lions and tigers are different species, even though they can breed ligers (ligers are always infertile).

[@JudgeDeadMJ]

@@BabyGhast4 there are exceptions tho - that's precisely the issue

[@secretterminal2179]

@@BabyGhast4 what if I bit you really hard

[@BabyGhast4]

@@JudgeDeadMJ Oh, really? Please tell me more, I am interested.

[@JudgeDeadMJ]

@@BabyGhast4 it's late here so I won't take the time to write a detailed response (and am not qualified to do so anyway), but the wiki articles on Hybrids and specifically Hybrid Speciation are quite detailed (=

[@shy-watcher]

In the words of some smart guy: "tree" is not a group, it is a strategy.

[@Suricacto]

I feel like subclasses are just socially accepted alternate loadouts or gameplans. So, playing a different way is AWAYS considered a different strategy, but once that becomes commonly used, to the point it gets named by the community either due to the playstyle, or interesting loadout. It then becomes a subclass. (The fact most it not all of them have nicknames shows that). It's basically a title given by the players, not a strict definition

[@kinghyperheart1571]

Honestly, I think this defines a subclass nicely, because in Dungeons n' Dragons (and of course RPGs in general), to me at least, a Subclass is defined as a variant a base class with very specific abilities, builds, and roles for teams in the game, such as Rogues (a class dedicated to being sneaky, stealing things, assassinating enemies) having subclasses like Thieves (Rogues more dedicating to stealing things better and getting better loot), Tricksters (masters at deceiving enemies through illusions through magic), Swashbucklers (combat rogues that don't have to sneak around but dodge and weave through fights), and SoulKnives (a balance of all the others with the psychic powers, the closest thing to being magic without actually being magic). They are all a form of Rogue but with significantly different combinations of builds, playstyles, mindsets, and roles in their parties, all of them defined by players who've been playing the game for years. In short, I think the general term for a Subclass is something of a combination of these factors Fish Mentioned and what you've mentioned: Subclass - "A variant of a base class that changes the way the class is played significantly enough with different weapons/abilities, playstyles, and mindset to best play them that are generally accepted by a large group of players."

[@leithaziz2716]

I like this explanation

[@lonesavior]

It reminds me of the question "what is a different language?" because 2 speakers being able to understand each other's speech is the basic line of what's a language, but there's just as many exceptions and reverse exceptions that it's safe to say the lines are completely arbitrary.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

No, playstyles cannot be subclasses, a subclass has to be using there whole kit to be a subclass, if a scout runs forward and only uses his melee that's not a subclass, that's a scout using his melee, the same goes to gunspy, because the entire rest of his kit is absolutely useless, unless he wants to go invisible to run away, or fat scout, he doesn't trade his minigun for a sandwich or a super shotgun, he just doesn't use a peice of his arsenal, in the same way you don't become a demoknight because you have a grenade launcher equipped and you don't use it, your just playing hybrid knight poorly

[@kinghyperheart1571]

@@lonesavior A fair counter argument, honestly. If the aim of the game is to play however you want, as long as it helps to win the game being the baseline, then how it is done doesn't matter. In this case having to define a Subclass as a tactic isn't always easy, or even necessary. Like you said, there are so many nuances, exceptions, and contradictions that sometimes trying to draw lines on things is absolutely pointless.

[@8stormy5]

From the "Demoknight is the only subclass" camp, let me try to put down the line with hybrid-knight and trolldier: 1) Hybrid Knight *is* Demoknight, because the grenade launcher is an accessory to your main offensive tool in both Demoman and Demoknight. The grenade launcher's presence or absence does not change how the (sub)class fundamentally works in either case. It's like calling "Jarate Sniper" a subclass to call "Hybrid-Knight" a subclass. 2) Trolldier is a challenge playstyle, and not a subclass, because market gardening remains a critical and important skill for all soldiers whether they're using the rocket jumper or not. Trolldier is in the same category as Battle Medic with Blutsauger or Gunspy with the amby.

[@shrimpchris6580]

Yeah, demoknight is doing something the base class fundamentally can't compared to a trolldier. I genuinely wish heavy had some way to replace his minigun with something (hell, having a sandwich and shotgun instead of minigun would even be enough for me) because at that point I'd argue fat scout could be considered a real subclass. The way the minigun works already doesn't jive well with a shotgun, so having something that pairs with it and lets it be your main mode of damage dealing would honestly be really fun.

[@masonkay7024]

Your stupid

[@fedweezy4976]

Id say hybrid knight is fairly different because it centers on its use of the launcher. Also, playing it forces you into the tide turner. It also allows the ability to charge reload and charge shoot, which neither demoknight or demoman can do. Especially because you lose the full crits and stickies. So at least to me, hybridknight is less a demoknight with a grenade launcher accessory and more an aggressive demo with higher mobility

[@shrimpchris6580]

@@fedweezy4976 I almost never use the tide turner and almost all of my time on the class is as hybrid. You are pretty movement limited still though.

[@alyx8815]

I’d describe a subclass as a loadout made that benefits but also forces you into a specific play style. As an example, you can do a troldier-like playstyle with liberty launcher and market gardener but that doesn’t force you into that playstyle of market gardening. Swap to the rocket jumper and it does force you into market gardening while benefiting that playstyle with 0 self damage For battle engi, you can go for a battle engi playstyle with any wrench, but you aren’t forced into it and can change playstyle by still upgrading buildings. Mini sentries can’t be upgraded though so you’re stuck with it but the mini sentries also benefit the battle engi playstyle.

[@aanproduction1516]

Demoknight is an only subclass because it's the only one who has variety. You can be different demoknights, but Trolldier is only one.

[@Beginnerss]

Factually wrong. I am a trolldier that uses either the katana or the whip to abuse their increased range to exclusively get Mantread kills. Trolldiers may also come with banners or for a challenge with gunboats. Trolldiers with Shotguns are just worse DOOM guys.

[@aanproduction1516]

@@Beginnerss Doomguys? Doomguy can't even jump, you goober. And there is the question: does changing to katana or a shotgun still counts as trolldier?

[@thunnus_albacares]

​​@@aanproduction1516 trolldier with shotgun is basically the same as hybrid-knight for me

[@Beginnerss]

@@aanproduction1516 Doomguy jumps a lot? NU-DOOM is still Doomguy if i remember my lore correctly. At worst you can call him Quake Guy. Regarding your question: Yes, it does since is literally just "anything but a damaging primary" which concludes with: Rocket Jumper + anything. The trolling comes from coming and going away, more similar to a Scout than a bomber/roamer.

[@silverdededestruction2197]

@@aanproduction1516 yes it does, it just changes your approach in a different way whip gives random crits and farther range but lacks the damage, so you have a harder time killing katana offers no crits, but heals/overheals you when you kill, so targetting low health people is more preferred and makes you play as a high speed assassin, or a full blown knight if you want to use banners

[@alekgold18]

Trolldier isn't a subclass like demoknight cause you still keep your rocket jumping and stock melee (but can now crit on demand) all for not dealing damage with your primary or secondary Demoknight gives you multiple passives, a completely new mobility tech and more health (along with more effective health through resistances). This combined with the fact that demoknight requires a fundamentally different mind set and skills to stock demo if you're good a soldier then you'll be good at trolldier but if you're good at demo you're probably not gonna be good at demoknight

[@Fatsaver]

Demoman Grenade Launcher Subclass

[@joshuawiener5003]

I was originally in the "subclass is when you use a loadout that drastically changes the way you play" boat at first, but after pointing out literally everything, I realize the error of my ways and now I want to crawl back into the ocean.

[@TheGhostThatWas]

man that transition at 4:50 was great 👍 hope you're cross country trip goes well fish!!

[@rafaeloyarzun6337]

I think a subclass should be defined around how the most popular play-style of the class is. As for Demoknight, i think calling it the only subclass is putting the bar too high, since it's the closest thing to a tenth class we have in the game. And sorry fish, the nerd in me has to speak, Reptile is invalid and Sauropsid remains supreme.

[@medic6994]

0:30 ahem, assault rifle

[@chordalharmony]

Even worse, assault weapon.

[@heinrichkrull2523]

@@chordalharmony Thanks you made me speechless.

[@richardlionerheart1945]

intermediary cartridge is what defines assault rifle

[@medic6994]

@@richardlionerheart1945 so the Ruger American Rifle Generation II Bolt Action Rifle is an assault rifle? It fires an intermediary cartridge

[@TheSimpleMan454]

*cough* Assault style weapon *cough cough* destructive implements *cough*

[@purplehaze2358]

If you think trying to categorize what does and doesn't qualify as a fish is a nightmare, then, if for no other reason than your own sanity, do not subject yourself to the rabbit hole that comes with trying to figure out what the fuck a worm is.

[@Spyachungus]

But fish stick on a stick a subclass is a subclass you can’t say it’s only half.

[@sir-bogram8523]

We've run out of weapons to talk about so now we turn to philosophy.

[@Dewfie]

Huntsman sniper and demo knight felt like the only intentional sub-classes by Valve. I'm still mad that Heavy didn't get a primary that changed his mode of operation

[@Rylainecchi]

Either give him something to encourage the fat scout playstyle, or just make his lunchbox items able to occupy the primary slot. I know fat scout is really mundane at the core, but it's still a really fun(ny) playstyle imo.

[@PolarGuy]

The Huntsman is my favorite way to fight on the forefront as a Sniper, especially with some Jarate.

[@philippeleprohon4823]

Please tell me you at least don't use the BS that is the Bushwacka, ​@@PolarGuy... Even something like the Shashasha would be useful with the piss.

[@pelinalwhitestrake3367]

I suggest giving Heavy an assault rifle in the primary slot (a variation of AK, perhaps). It wouldn't exactly make a subclass, but it would make him more mobile during the fight, unlike GRU that makes him more mobile outside the fight. It would kinda change the playstyle, making Heavy more of an offensive class that's able to do fast pushes without having his entire team wait for him.

[@miimiiandco]

What about Crusader's Crossbow or the Gunslinger?

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

The ch in concheror is pronounced like a K. The shell he's blowing on is a conch, as in conch chowder. It's a play on words to sound like conquerer. Get it?

[@Tang-qi6zw]

Seeing demokmight as the only “true” subclass is a good meter for the thing. Using “true” as “inarguable”. Like managing charge and bash is so different from sticky traps or spam that it is obviously a subclass. While Hybridknight is not a subclass, since the main damage dealer is still charge and bash, but you keep a pipe option and forgo some maneuverability. A change in class play style, instead of a subclass. But the only way to define these things is with fuzzy definitions, so it’ll never be clean borders.

[@DuizhangLu]

This got sooo nerdy and I'm 101% here for it

[@jackalscry8173]

You’ve successfully convinced me that all is fish.

[@griffinofbadluck1015]

"Back Scatter on the way!" "Got a Cloak and Dagger in the area!" "Flock of Turtles over here!" "Quick Fix on the Huntsman!" "Hostile Kritzkrieg nearby!" "Pybro in the Nest!" "Bear, Gator, shark and Eagle are charging the water!"

[@griffinofbadluck1015]

Go ahead, add more call outs.

[@royaloreo1275]

Penis Scout is coming!

[@ihavenoidea598]

@@griffinofbadluck1015 "Dickscout near small banana!"

[@wraithxd2458]

@@griffinofbadluck1015 "Penis Scout from behind!"

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Call outs really don't translate to subclasses, it's just a notification on there playstyle, for instance gun spys, just not using part of your kit to favor the gun is only able to be a playstyle because the kit is the same

[@cristianovogt5586]

Real answer. Sub Class were meant to be a thing in TF2 that Valve inteeded to add with Demoknight being the first one ever but Valve being Valve deised to abandon this concept and never touch on it again. So the TF2 community did what they do best, cope and fool themselves into thinking the game has lots of subclass when in reality there's only one.

[@TheWhatShow]

Pingas scout is the only sub class

[@WolfyTheDark]

I find that setting them into those four categories is actually perfect. I would say it's mostly mindset and playstyle, but agree that it's practically anything. You can make a name for every combo loadout, "Support Soldier" with a banner and whip, "Support Scout" with milk and FoW, "Brawler Heavy" with steak and any melee, etc. The one thing I say that makes them those distinct things is that they all rely on a certain gimmick. But then we get a different definition of "gimmick" or different gimmick missions.

[@WooHooLadttv]

I always though of it like this Large change in gameplay? Viable enough to topscore easily if you put in the time to learn? Changes strengths and weakness of class role heavily? If all three are yes then its a subclass and not a gimmick.

[@tyrusing]

Honestly if valve just let Heavy equip the shotguns in his primary slot AND his secondary slot, Fat Scout would be a genuine subclass. That way he could have both a Shotgun and a Sandvich at the same time, which essentially forces him to play differently instead of just having him ignore his Minigun like current Fat Scout.

[@correctly2167]

or we could let heavy equip sandvich in both primary and secondary slot

[@silverdededestruction2197]

@@correctly2167 double sandvich pog heavy knight reign supreme

[@ChiefKenn]

videos getting sharper and sharper fish keep up the good shit also demoknight is *just* the 10th tf2 class I do not take criticism

[@Yan_Alkovic]

Amazing analysis, I am so happy that Fish is using his zoology knowledge for TF2. Wish more people did that kinda thing.

[@rawcyan8730]

Here is my take on Subclass: A change in playstyle prominent enough to be recognized by the wider community The core of classes in practice are to communicate what a player should expect in one or two words, soldiers fire rockets and might come at you from the sky, spies will be trying to sabotage your engies and subtitle take out you or your teammates, and medic will sit behind their team and heal. You would call out a subclass when these norms are broken in a way that happens regularly enough to become a recognizable pattern A demoknight and trolldier are a subclass because they deviate in a specific enough way and with enough regularity to get their own designation Ultimately this “definition” is loose as it depends purely on “memes” shared around the community but it’s the best I’ve got

[@Gigabyte019]

Absolutely love the melee music, and you had great points, and the jokes were pretty good. Solid A-tier, well done FSOAS.

[@calebkelly8221]

Demoknight tf2

[@Galacticbraindentist]

The existence of the subclass implies the existence of the domclass.

[@philippeleprohon4823]

r/angryupvote, happy to see you here. Now take my like and f*ck off.

[@inductivegrunt94]

Anything can be a subclass as long as it makes you happy to use it.

[@silverdededestruction2197]

subclass to me is just a way of changing how you play that class in a way that isn't just a a number modification that changes how you deal damage based on a specific condition (etc. setting enemies on fire to deal mini crits, right click charge does minicrit mega explosion, etc.). Stuff like fatscout isn't a subclass, that's regular heavy. I'd argue that the sandwiches are more of an actual subclass since they change how you interact with the map, as healing on the spot makes you tank better while on the frontlines, but also makes you a minor support where you can help give hefty healing towards a teammmate (or minor instant healing if you go with the banana or chocolate), Steak Heavy is also a subclass that necessitates a brawler or assassin playstyle as it forces you into melee range. Soldier Knight is a unique subclass mostly revolving around using the zatoichi and pairing it with the rocket jumper and any of the banners, encouraging you to engage with the enemy to score a kill

[@andreworders7305]

8:26 birds are technically also reptiles

[@diprotodon8943]

As a taxonomy/cladistics nerd the analogy with the linguistics of vertebrate biology perked my ears up; Really did not expect to hear that in a TF2 video. Nice stuff fellow fish 👍

[@vorpalweapon4814]

it was a matter of time given this game has had 7 years to ferment it's own metagame. The peeps in the comp community are currently debating whether the existence of hitscan in TF2 by virtue of not being able to be reacted to is unbalanced.

[@BigHailFan]

The main thing I got from this video is that FishStick hates Lungfish.

[@mauser98kar]

To add to the confusion: Hybrid Knight has several niches. First leans towards usual Demo - use pills for damage and melee for back-up; shield is for repositioning. Second leans towards Knight - use melee for damage and pills for back-up; shield is for charging people. They can also overlap, creating true Hybrid that uses pills and melee equally, but from what I've seen, most people do lean one way or the other. Also, there are even smaller subclasses of Deepstrike Demo, Paratrooper Demo and Stickie Knight. First uses training stickies to cover half the map and flank the enemy, which plays a bit different from regular Demo (its often a kamikaze pick-off attack, extra-aggressive roll-out or one-way flanking trip when you really need to distract the enemy team and you don't care about playing safe). Second is pretty self-explanatory and is used to spam stickies from above. And the third either uses booties for extra health and play as normal Demo without pills or uses training stickies to leap behind enemy lines with melee. You'd be surprised how different these three can feel compared to usual Demoman or Demoknight.

[@johnr4182]

Wait, so what is a tree?

[@randomwagtail4295]

I think this would answer you kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYTQpqWmZt2CobMsi=ySjYWIvCCqj3_l9- Even though i didn't watch this video in a while

[@MinnowTF]

A cookie

[@GamerTheVoidGamingCentre]

My way of thinking about Subclasses falls similarly into splitting it, but also combining it. It’s anything that breaks the mold for the intended behavior of the class. So, Demoknight not only for the sword and shield, but because that sword and shield change how you play the class at a base level. Pybro not at all, because Pyro is inherently a supportive class at their base, nor frag pyro since that leans back into its design. I’d place Ambush Pyro in the subclass category since at her base, he’s a medium speed, above average health class. The weapons ambush Pyros use typically weren’t intended for use that way, minus the Backburner, but it drastically changes the mindset from a frontline support to an enemy lines decimator. Quite similar to the Ninjaneer, a subclass of the subclass of Battle Engineer. Each of these have weapons that help be the class, or make the class as a whole, but most would not need to use them to become that class. Difference of a Subclass and True Subclass at that point. But if you go against the intended class role, I feel that’s a subclass personally.

[@flibbernodgets7018]

I think a subclass's validity is directly proportional to how catchy the name is. Demoknight? Sure. Fat scout? Eh, alright. Trolldier? Nah.

[@gaidencastro9706]

My personal definition: If you change your class's role on the team and the new role requires you to spam one or more non-stock weapons, it's a subclass.

[@bobthebox2993]

I fall in the following camp: For something to be a subclass, it needs to be a loadout or a set of loadouts that significantly hamper the main playstyle of a class while introducing, or significantly elevating the viability of, an alternative playstyle. Most "subclasses" that fall outside of this are just alternate playstyles, or as you called them "mindsets". There are therefore only 4 "subclasses" that I would actually consider subclasses (in order of most clearly a subclass to least clearly a subclass): -Demoknight: Base demo is a combat class that focusses on explosives from either his primary or secondary weapon to do the bulk of his damage and do crowd control, while Demoknight is a pick class that rushes at people with a big sword. You can't play like a base demoman because you don't have any of your explosives. Trolldier: Base soldier is a combat class that does the bulk of his damage by shooting rockets at people from, preferably, a medium distance. Trolldier trades all that damage for a big boost to mobility and becomes a pick class. You can't play like base soldier because your rockets can't kill enemies anymore. Huntsman: Base sniper is a pick class that prefers to stay at long range and is heavily rewarded for his mechanical skill, while huntsman starts leaning towards a combat class that prefers medium range and is heavily rewarded for predicting enemy movement (and getting lucky). Playing like a base sniper isn't viable, because you are way less effective at such long distances. Battle Engineer: Base engineer creates an anchor for his team to hold on to an area with powerful defensive buildings, while Battle Engineer trades the building that's most essential to holding an area, for a much weaker building that allows him to more effectively push forward into enemy lines. Playing like a base engineer is less viable, because your mini sentry just isn't very effective at holding back enemy pushes and can barely be considered an anchor point. If the "subclass" isn't mentioned above, it's lacking a key feature for me to consider it an actual subclass, a few examples: Hybrid Knight: The point of Hybrid Knight is kind of to not be a subclass, a Hybrid Knight wants to dabble into some of the Demo Knight kit, without giving up their powerful explosives. Since they hold on to their grenade launcher, there is nothing stopping them from playing like a regular demoman. Fat Scout: This is an example of what I'd consider a "playstyle" and not a "subclass", there is nothing about their loadout that forces them to play without their minigun. Caber Jumper: While yes, the loadout does reduce the viability of your main playstyle, because it gets rid of your 2 main explosive weapons, the loadout does not elevate an alternative playstyle, I would consider this a "handicap" not a "subclass'. Dragon's Fury: while yes, it does completely change the feel of the class, your playstyle ends up staying the same, like base pyro, you still close the distance to enemies to take them out with your high-damage, but limited range weapon.

[@ihavenoidea598]

this

[@SaintoftheHonest]

My mindset is that a playstyle just requires "you play differently", but doesn't change your matchups (Pybro is STILL good against Spies), while a Subclass requires such a fundamental change that changes your matchup advantages and disadvantages completely (like how pure Demoknight is agony against Engineer nests, but eats Snipers for breakfast). This wouldn't make Pybro or Battle Engie a subclass, but WOULD make Huntsman Sniper and Trolldier one.

[@alexrexaros9837]

I mean, hey, why not ask Valve? Won't hurt them more than making a whole update.

[@vorpalweapon4814]

Appeal to divine authority.

[@turkishjanitor3666]

*radio silence*

[@purplehaze2358]

Everyone asks what a subclass is; but nobody asks what a domclass is.

[@genghisdingus]

I feel like a subclass is a set of items which physically prevents you from playing the traditional way a class is played. So demoknight is a subclass because you physically can't lob pipes and stickies like a normal demoman Trolldier is a subclass because you can't use rockets or your shotgun. Demo with the base-jumper and sticky jumper is a form of demoknight called demoflight because you're still navigating the map a high speeds to get melee kills. This means that demoknight and trolldier are the only subclasses. If valve were to add a support weapon to heavy's primary then fat scout would become a subclass.

[@NFGUN1T]

This is simple: Full Melee Demoknight and Trolldier are entire new classes. If you can't damage Engineer's buildings with explosive weapons, you're not a Demoman or a Soldier. And none of those classes are efficients in terms of teamplay since they can't accomplish their main goals reliably (aka crowd control and nest destruction for the most parts). Not to mention both violates some TF2 core design about classes. And both are incredibly annoying to fight against.

[@MegaKH2fan]

I think Uncle Dane's argument of "Battle Engie isn't a subclass, it's a mindset" is basically how it works for all subclasses, it's just how you want to play, and it's a simple easy way to call out what role you're trying to play. You hear "Engie on the front Lines" you think it's easy pickings. You hear "Battle Engie on the front lines" you start looking for sentries on flanks and be ready for a Frontier Crit.

[@matheusrios4223]

You know, the only thing making demoknight a subclass is the fact it uses a existing class as base. Demoknight plays nothing as pure demo and even hybrid knight, it is a new class of it's own, unlike trolldier, because even if your rocket launcher does no damage, rocket jumping is still a integral part of soldier gameplay. So by that definition I came up with, trolldier is the real subclass. Uncle Dane classifies battle engie as a play style, and it kinda is, the gunslinger is just taylor made to enforce it and make it faster. As a pyro main, I don't think pyro has a subclass. Pybro is a play style, just like combo pyro and offensive pyro. So in the end, my conclusion is that demoknight is a new secret class, hybrid knight and trolldier are the real subclasses, and all the rest is just play styles

[@nicholasho1595]

Personally, I consider Demoknight a subclass not Trolldier one because Demoknight was clearly designed by Valve to be one, with multiple shield and sword options, and its own sub-subclass in hybrid knight as you said. Trolldier is a playstyle that, as long as you use the market gardener, could be used with any rocket launcher and secondary, it would just be less effective than the rocket jumper, like how any weapon set can be used to play battle engineer less effectively than the gunslinger.

[@Awenova]

I would define a subclass as any name you give a playstyle that benefits the team if you call it out. Like, "Watch out, they got a trolldier!" If I just say soldier, the information isn't as helpful, but saying trolldier than lets your teammates know to watch out for any enemies in the air. Even a gun spy and fat scout fits this definition well, because when you call out those names, your teammates will know the playstyle of the enemy class before they meet them, and so they can react better. If I call out a huntsman sniper though, the information isn't as helpful. Teammates will still know to not peak around chokes or to walk straight in the frontlines. It wouldn't be any different than if I called out a sniper on the backlines, so I would not consider huntsman sniper a subclass.

[@BuenasSoySimon]

I think that is any loadout with a mindset that changes totally the way you usually can play, like the paratrooper that makes you an air danger, the milkman that makes you a support and not an offensive like scout is supposed, the pyroshark, because it changes totally what a pyro is made to normally do, the huntsman makes sniper a front line character and not an behind all the wall of tankies because the hunstman does less damage and doesn't have an eyehole that makes you see further the targets, the demoknight and trolldier i think that don't need to explain why are they subclasses, so for me those are the 6 subclasses

[@Devisidev]

Wonderful video man, i think you perfectly encapsulated what a subclass is and did well defining things that are inherelty tough to define. I also loved the fungus conparison between the different types of subclasses. Fuckin fungi bein so painful to define...

[@ArgentCosmonaut]

The marriage of the two topics of taxonomy and subclass discussion was quite entertaining. Also, as a wise man once said: "I cannot teach you about the mushrooms."

[@korterkaks]

Did you intentionally use "Impotent" do demonstrate the point that people should know the definition of a word before using it? Idk doesn't feel like it, but impotent's meaning is wayy too far off to sound like a mistake either.

[@donavanzook6496]

Being a taxonomy junkie myself, this video was highly enjoyable! DONT ASK ME WHAT A TREE IS PLEASE DEAR GOD

[@VonSnuggles1412]

Welcome to what I like to call "FSoaS learns about the hell scientists go through in regards to our entire existence: TF2 Edition!"

[@Spika94]

Way to overcomplicate it. Demoknight is just Demoman, but we called it Demoknight because it made sense. "subclass" is not an actual thing in the game at all.

[@echoergecko]

I feel like being a fat scout absolves you of the right to complain to medics who only use the syringe gun

[@ManateeExpress]

This is an excellent video, my favorite commentary on this subject I've heard so far

[@cosmicfails2053]

So The solution to issue of defining the label Was to just to add more labels atop it to create niches for that label

[@tibimarin]

I think we should differentiate between subclass and play style.

[@ncrtrooperscout]

This is probably the most philosophical video FishStick has made.

[@ult1873]

Team Fortress 2 subclasses always seemed like a strange case to me..?

[@evilmemelord7535]

what is a subclass? what is love? baby dont hurt me.

[@gundle_]

Tf2 youtubers when they reuse the same topic for the 3753th time

[@Arandonmaniac-2401]

Waiting for the cloak and dagger episode part12

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

Great video, Elephant On A Stick! Can't wait for the next one.

[@vorpalweapon4814]

13:39 Well that's just philosophy in general.

[@denimdan7071]

That’s it. That’s a like and subscribe.

[@scyfrix]

5:33 Lobbing shots into the void hoping you hit something is not something almost any sniper does, unless they're using the Huntsman. It's pretty unique to the weapon. (Unless you consider the Jarate, I suppose.) Snipers using the Huntsman are much more mobile than typical snipers, since they can charge shots very quickly without losing any movement speed by jumping. A bodyshot with a charged Huntsman shot does 120 damage, putting light and medium classes only a few SMG shots from death, which is a tactic that's much easier to pull off at close range than quickscoping with a normal sniper rifle. One more change is that a sniper using the Huntsman is far less prone to tunnel vision than other snipers, even compared to using the Classic. All of those changes, plus the fact that the Huntsman is a projectile weapon, encourage snipers using it to get fairly close to the enemy and take the fight directly to them, which is almost antithetical to a normal sniper's playstyle. That's why I consider the Huntsman significantly different, different enough to qualify as a subclass. I don't normally think of a player using them as "a sniper with a Huntsman", they're just Huntsmen to me, same as Trolldiers or Demoknights. The differences in their weapons make them behave differently enough to warrant separate categories.

[@smoogy2164]

For those reasons and others I think Huntsman with Jarate + Bushwhacka qualifies for the "overhaul" category based on the criteria. It basically turns the class role inside out so that the closer you are to the front line, the more effective you get; you can be the spy-checker instead of the spy victim; actively buff the team/debuff the enemy instead of being too far away to contribute; shoot over and under obstacles to hit people you can't see instead of requiring clear sight lines... plus the obvious, you're playing the sniper class without any actual guns.

[@tvcat5096]

No 2k views in 34 minutes? Fell off

[@tristan5.mp4]

Your editing skills have improved quite a bit, it’s nice to look at and easy to understand, keep it up