Five Myths Behind Traditionis Custodes and the Attack on the TLM

onepeterfive.com/donate
www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

[@ransomcoates546]

Gregory di Pippo is worth straining to hear. He is one of the most learned men on the Roman Liturgy alive today.

[@gregorydipippo2666]

You are very kind to say so, and I thank you. And I am sorry if people have to strain to hear me properly; especially when I am speaking about something which really interests me, I have a hard time remembering to speak more slowly and clearly.

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

@@gregorydipippo2666 It was more that your microphone was much quieter than Tim’s. His mic is always super loud, though. That’s actually a good thing since it’s easier to turn down the volume on our whereas it can only go so high, but his guests are usually much quieter. I wish he could find a way to equalize it better. Tim, if you’re reading this, it’s just my humble request!

[@1907jdee]

@@gregorydipippo2666 no problems listening here, and I am in Ireland 😉. Very informative, thank you! Would definitely enjoy hearing more on this.

[@JJ-og2jq]

I love the TLM and it has had a massive impact on the spiritual life of my family. We should be careful, in my opinion, with over-romanticizing the TLM and parishes that run it. I have been a part of various parishes and under lots of pastors now (due to considerable moving around) and have been faced with realities which are not advertised (if I can put it like that). I have seen continual lack of sermons on Sundays, readings not being read before the sermon, the congregation being sometimes very sparse, often older in demographics not unlike NO, lack of families with children, masks required at mass, lack of any catechists, lack of regular confession being offered. I could go on, all these may be anomalies and may have solutions but my point is to not over-romanticize the TLM.

[@benjaminhall560]

Enormously interesting and informative. Thank you.

[@M5guitar1]

The Modernists don't have a will to change their Modernist liturgy. Woe to them, Pride is their downfall, not willing to admit error.

[@lakers0224]

I wish I could go regularly to my TLM. I don't have a car and uber/lyft so expensive now. My sister let's me use her car if it's available. She doesn't like the TLM she says because she is in the choir at 2 NO churches and prefers their music. She doesn't like not understanding the Latin. She doesn't want to have to wear a dress / veil. Trying to save up for a car but it isn't easy with prices of everything going up. Thank you for sharing your knowledge !

[@Onepeterfive]

Hello sister. Offer it up! That is a difficult sacrifice that many of your brethren are facing! God be with you. -TSF

[@Rome_77]

I think the modern church looks down on the TLM movement, not because they view it as a serious threat but more because they judge it as ridiculous naivety. They view “traditionalism” as a shortsighted false refuge for the alienated and maladjusted. They see it leading people down into a shut off place filled with end-times hysteria, insecure anger and suspicion towards the world (“the material world is evil I just can’t wait to leave my body and escape to heaven”). Most Trads don’t deny V2 but I think the characterization being made is that everyone who attends the TLM implicitly rejects the proactive, hopefully confident and soberly optimistic eschatology (posture towards the future) re-emphasized by V2 with its missionary theme. The problem is the Novus Ordo is viewed as the mass that represents V2 optimism. By going to the TLM we’re seen as rejecting a broad-minded evangelistic hope for a future springtime in the Church. Some TLM lovers double down and reject this V2 optimism instead of reclaiming it from the misguided 70’s boomer “spirit of V2” dissidents. I can’t deny that there are fuddy duddy divisive pharisaical types (“radtrads”) who attend the TLM who really are sucked into that sort of bunker hole of negative doomsday “traditionalism” or medieval fantasy “romanticism”. But I don’t think that’s good enough reason to suppress the TLM. There are people who love the TLM who are not doom and gloom about the future or schismatic but instead find in the TLM the necessary nourishment to go out and live out our mission to Christify the world.

[@myleshagar9722]

The beginning phrases of Gaudium et Spes are so 1960s slobbering with admiration and embracing of the then current little western world, it is pure satire.

[@richardmalcolm1457]

"I think the characterization being made is that everyone who attends the TLM implicitly rejects the proactive, hopefully confident and soberly optimistic eschatology (posture towards the future) re-emphasized by V2 with its missionary theme." The necessary corollary, though, is that the old rites must embody a *pessimistic* exchatology - and, as such, necessarily NOT fitting for evangelization. Which, of course, really DOES seem to be the view of some in the establishment. The problem is that the empirical evidence, both before Vatican II and after, is so dramatically at odds with both characterizations around the world, with the only notable exception of large parts of sub-Saharan Africa. But even in Africa, the data is equivocal: Catholicism grew explosively iin the 20th century before Vatican II (from 1 million in 1900 to 35 million in 1960) and it grew explosively after Vatican II (from 35 million to 236 million today). The new Mass may have aided growth in Africa, but clearly there were even more fundamental factors behind the rapid growth of the faith there.

[@Rome_77]

@@richardmalcolm1457 yep. I just really suspect this is what’s at the heart of the conflict. Some in the establishment see the older mass as the form of worship for “pessimistic closed-off Catholicism.” That’s what they mean by “rejecting V2”. Trads are playing their game by giving in to this false self-defeating victim identity. We should flip it on them. They say they’re the “truly traditional” Catholics. We can say we’re the “truly optimistic”. Instead of fighting the establishment from this embittered place of closed-off pessimism, we traditional Catholics should fight this mischaracterization and take ownership of that long-term optimism emphasized by V2 rather than mock it as naivety.

[@Rome_77]

@@richardmalcolm1457 I think they also see the new mass as a realistic emergency response to a faith that has been polluted by modernity. They believe “the old way” of the TLM belonged to a world that held to a more enchanted symbolic worldview. Now that we have lost that sense or that way of seeing, the TLM is little more than a dead re-enactment in costume, they say. To them, it’s something we’ve lost and can’t simply “go back” to. This is why critiques to the new mass don’t work… they can accept that it’s currently defective because they already acknowledge it’s a humble “work in progress” and that “the only way back is through”. I don’t agree with this, but what is your response to that challenge or critique?

[@LUIS-ox1bv]

@@richardmalcolm1457 The growth of the Faith in sub-Saharan Africa, had nothing to do with the aid of the new Mass. There was growth with the Protestant denominations as well. With the elimanation of many life threatening diseases, the population of Sub-Saharan Africa has exploded, and the number of Christians corresponds to this demographic reality. While Christianity continues to gain adherents, so does Islam. Islam is much more aggressive, and militant in its approach and methods in winning coverts. Nigeria, and Tanzania, are good examples of this

[@michaeljcdo335]

A debate between Louis Tofari and Gregory DiPippo on the '55 Holy Week reforms is in due order, imho

[@kamilziemian995]

Very good video.

[@suegreene1]

TLM was the mass of my childhood and early teenager years, I left the Church because of difficult circumstances, I went to mass years later in a Franciscan Convent, during the first years of the post Vatican II, it was still ad Orientum but even with the XVII Century organ helping it didn't feel the same, mind you I still had serious grudges with the Church We lived in that Convent during 8 months, the TLM was so forbidden that one of the painter of the order came to paint some parts of the Convent for it's museum, one day I found my friends shocked because Father P. was giving by himself in an intern chapel the TLM. We are still friends of the fathers that are still alive, they travelled 3.000 Kms. to visit us at home. now I understand why I felt nothing with the Novus Ordo. Not even in Santiago de Compostela with all the pomp

[@citizenworld8094]

The guest was interesting to listen to but his speed of words which went from fast to being inaudible was disconcerting. I had to put this video on a slower speed to understand him. Interviews should tell their guests that a majority of listeners listen to these interviews on portable devices and small speakers and rapid speech means only one thing - incoherence. I work in pro audio and I’m used to this but this guest’s voice needs to be treated before it’s broadcast. As for the subject matter, this is going to land badly for those of us who have found the Latin mass. There’s no going back to a Facebook-esque novis ordo mass.. it’s unconscionable.

[@nicolasjuandecardenas7921]

The NO is no longer a unbloody sacrifice to the Father.

[@m.proximus1930]

...standing by...

[@top8305]

Why isn't this vid delineated in its notes section with a timeline and table of contents like so many other vids, so that the viewers are considerately provided reference points, milestone markers and topical pointers? People pay you for these inconsiderations?😑 Pax Christi